Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a special
Speaker 1: episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin,
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, but because
Speaker 1: it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. Of today's guest,
Speaker 1: that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminiscence about converting a
Speaker 1: home in Malibu into the now legendary recording studio run
Speaker 1: by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early
Speaker 1: days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were
Speaker 1: known as the Hawks, and they also discussed Robbie's longtime
Speaker 1: work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar
Speaker 1: nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We should also note
Speaker 1: that if you liked this episode, there's a new documentary
Speaker 1: called Once We're Brothers Robbie Robertson and the Band that
Speaker 1: are Becoming out in theaters on February twenty first, this
Speaker 1: is Broken Record line of notes to the digital Age.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchell. Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce
Speaker 1: Head Them from Shango La speaking with the studios architect.
Speaker 1: Robbie Robertson. We had a fantastic day the other day here,
Speaker 1: and when I was telling the stories of Shangri La,
Speaker 1: you know, the stories, he envisioned this place and built
Speaker 1: it and it was unbelievable and it was mine. You know.
Speaker 1: The other guys in the band thought this was a
Speaker 1: good idea. But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's
Speaker 1: house to the Woos, we made these records in not
Speaker 1: in studios and other places where there was an atmosphere
Speaker 1: that could be our atmosphere here and our sound, you know,
Speaker 1: and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing
Speaker 1: if somebody else's wavelength, you know, you would go into
Speaker 1: the studio and there'd be these used to be these
Speaker 1: Union guys, and they'd be like, oh, it looks like
Speaker 1: it's lunchtime. We're like, what are you talking about lunchtime?
Speaker 1: We're we're you know, we're about to do something. And
Speaker 1: they'd be and I'd be like, I don't know, this
Speaker 1: should be louder. They don't touch that, you know, So
Speaker 1: I don't want that. I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: do that. So I said, what we're going to do
Speaker 1: is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these
Speaker 1: studio things. That is our world and our music, our sound.
Speaker 1: And whether it was true or not, I believed that
Speaker 1: it gave it a character and a thing, which it
Speaker 1: did for better or worse. What's what's interesting about that
Speaker 1: is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah, that said,
Speaker 1: when you did it technologically, it was much more difficult
Speaker 1: to do. Like, when you did it you needed big
Speaker 1: studio equipment. Like today people can do it on their laptop,
Speaker 1: so they could it's easier to make that jump. But
Speaker 1: when you did it, the infrastructure involved was not easy
Speaker 1: to pull off. It was unheard of except for Les
Speaker 1: Paul Less. Paul said, I'm going to build a studio
Speaker 1: at my house, and I'm gonna build an echo chamber
Speaker 1: into the side of this hill, right, and he was
Speaker 1: going to do all of these things. I had an
Speaker 1: argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able
Speaker 1: to do this kind of thing, and because he was saying,
Speaker 1: I only like to play live just with my band
Speaker 1: and I go in and we sing and they play
Speaker 1: this song and we capture a moment. All done that.
Speaker 1: I know it really well. I played ricks some music
Speaker 1: the other day that was all like first or second takes,
Speaker 1: and it was you know songs you've heard, Yeah, songs
Speaker 1: you've heard a lot. So anyway, Savannah is saying, it's
Speaker 1: gotta be live and it's gotta be bubbla va and
Speaker 1: that's the way it used to be and it's a
Speaker 1: way to dab by. And I said, what about Les Paul.
Speaker 1: He overdubbed, he made things, he played on top of himself,
Speaker 1: he double tracked things, He invented it. So Silvan says,
Speaker 1: I know, but he was magic. Wait made you did
Speaker 1: you recorded at Sammy Davis Junior's house. Yes, we made
Speaker 1: the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. And we rented
Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood it's up Sunset
Speaker 1: Plaza in the Hollywood Hills, and we all stayed in
Speaker 1: the house for the family. And we turned the woolhouse
Speaker 1: where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra
Speaker 1: in the rat back and all these people. We turned
Speaker 1: that poolhouse into a studio. And the record company thought
Speaker 1: this was the worst idea they ever heard. They thought
Speaker 1: this was ridiculous. He said, drive fifteen minutes. We have
Speaker 1: the best studio in the world here. Frank's not for
Speaker 1: records here right, all of this stuff, and I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know what you're doing and it's
Speaker 1: probably going to be bad. But didn't chump up. Sammy
Speaker 1: Davis Junior. He owned, he still owned the house. He
Speaker 1: didn't live there, so was imagining him like he lived
Speaker 1: there stepping but everything in the house was built lower.
Speaker 1: You go into the the bathroom and the sink was
Speaker 1: down here, and it was everything was built to his specifications,
Speaker 1: you know. And and it seemed like this is great,
Speaker 1: This is great Sammy's world, you know. And so we
Speaker 1: recorded the album there and then we mix it, or
Speaker 1: we're going to mix the record, and there's this guy
Speaker 1: in New York, Tony May was his name, and he
Speaker 1: had mixed the Eisley Brothers. It's your thing, do what
Speaker 1: you want to do. So it was such a great
Speaker 1: sounding record, we said, wow, let's see if we can
Speaker 1: get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with
Speaker 1: Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he
Speaker 1: comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything
Speaker 1: and he says, these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have
Speaker 1: to do a lot of work on this, and I thought, hmmm,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway,
Speaker 1: he did a mix there was not what I wanted
Speaker 1: at all. It's not the way I heard it at all.
Speaker 1: So anyway, we're like, thanks tony Ce, you know, and
Speaker 1: which song on which songs? These? These were on the
Speaker 1: band album? It was the night they drove Old Dixie
Speaker 1: down up on Crippled Creek, uh, you know, Whispering Pines.
Speaker 1: His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright
Speaker 1: and and there was a woodiness to it. There was
Speaker 1: a muddiness to it that that suited the music. It
Speaker 1: was earthy and I wanted that right. But he didn't
Speaker 1: get the jokes. So that was okay. So I went
Speaker 1: and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at
Speaker 1: the at the old Jerry Raga Voice Hid Factory in
Speaker 1: New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed that,
Speaker 1: the guys in the band, we were all in there
Speaker 1: moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted.
Speaker 1: So we get it and then it's like, okay. The guy,
Speaker 1: the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwick, you gotta
Speaker 1: get him to master your record. So we take the
Speaker 1: record to Bob Ludwick and he puts it, you know,
Speaker 1: he puts on the tape of the mixes and everything,
Speaker 1: and he says, oh boy, He's like Tony May. He's like,
Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm gonna try. I'll see if I
Speaker 1: can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm,
Speaker 1: that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the
Speaker 1: other guys. I said, I don't know, we might have
Speaker 1: done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's it's terrible and that,
Speaker 1: you know, so the net I don't know. A couple
Speaker 1: of days later, Bob Ludwick calls me and he says,
Speaker 1: I am such an idiot. I am such a fool.
Speaker 1: I didn't get it. I so get it. This is
Speaker 1: maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said,
Speaker 1: I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwig,
Speaker 1: he said, I made the same mistake when sly Stone
Speaker 1: brought me there's a riot going on. I thought that
Speaker 1: that was a big mistake too, And he said, and
Speaker 1: then I've realized it. You know, I had to accept
Speaker 1: it the way that I accepted your record, And so
Speaker 1: I was like, because I thought he was right, you know,
Speaker 1: and if he had a state with that, I don't
Speaker 1: know what would have happened. So he, you know, he
Speaker 1: mastered and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering,
Speaker 1: and it was just one of those things. It was
Speaker 1: a homemade thing. It did have that character to it,
Speaker 1: and that was part of its specialness. He came very
Speaker 1: close to ruining two of the great masterpieces. Yeah, well,
Speaker 1: I do remember actually the first songs he wrote, I
Speaker 1: goes for Ronnie Hawkins. What were they like? Well? What
Speaker 1: were they? Well? One of the reasons he hired me.
Speaker 1: I wrote a couple of songs for him when I
Speaker 1: was fifteen years old because I heard him say that
Speaker 1: I need some songs, and I was trying to figure
Speaker 1: out how I could crash into this world of Southern
Speaker 1: rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are
Speaker 1: from the holy land in the South where this music
Speaker 1: grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole
Speaker 1: fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can
Speaker 1: do it. And they were all from this house, and
Speaker 1: they sounded that way and all of it. It's just okay.
Speaker 1: And I'm up in Canada, so you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It feels like such a distance and I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out a way how can I become a part
Speaker 1: of this How can I get into this club and
Speaker 1: they'll accept me. So I hear him say I need
Speaker 1: some So I go off and I write a couple
Speaker 1: of songs. Where are you when you write these songs
Speaker 1: in Toronto? I'm in Cabbage Town. You're in high school? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I was fifteen. Did you know anything about writing songs? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'd written some songs already and this was just something
Speaker 1: you just kind of boosted your game up. You know.
Speaker 1: As we go along, certain things happen and it makes
Speaker 1: you think, Okay, now I got to take on this
Speaker 1: challenge and if I can, if I can win that war, whoa,
Speaker 1: I'll now be this will be my starting place instead
Speaker 1: of yours. What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he
Speaker 1: needed some new songs? Well? We I had a band
Speaker 1: called Robbie and the Robots and we were an opening,
Speaker 1: you know, act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on
Speaker 1: a weekend in a dance out in the West End
Speaker 1: of Toronto at an arena. So we went on and
Speaker 1: played for Ronnie Hawkins and Ronnie and the other guys.
Speaker 1: They thought, Wow, these kids are not bad, you know,
Speaker 1: they're not too bad, and that was all I needed
Speaker 1: to hear. So I was just trying to get some
Speaker 1: of it. So I was hanging around, and then they
Speaker 1: went on and killed it. I had never heard anything
Speaker 1: like that before, that far, that up close, you know,
Speaker 1: I just heard other bands the designed from Toronto, right
Speaker 1: and or whatever. This was something and you had to
Speaker 1: get into clubs to really hear these people play. But
Speaker 1: they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I
Speaker 1: see them play, and I'm like, this is unbelievable. A
Speaker 1: real rockabilly band, right, like Carl Perkins and you know
Speaker 1: Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, like you right out
Speaker 1: of that school. So I think, and the energy and
Speaker 1: the excitement in the music, and Ronnie was an amazing
Speaker 1: showman it and he always wanted to have killer musicians
Speaker 1: and they were great. So after they played, I was
Speaker 1: just hanging around, trying to get some of it to
Speaker 1: rub off on me, you know, some of that musicality.
Speaker 1: And so I was trying to be helpful and hanging
Speaker 1: around and then I you know, and and they ended
Speaker 1: up liking me, and they said, uh, all right, you
Speaker 1: know at the hotel, why don't you come by? And
Speaker 1: I would just try to try to make myself useful,
Speaker 1: you know, and somebody needed a new string put on
Speaker 1: the guitar or whatever anything, you know. So I I
Speaker 1: was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much
Speaker 1: as I could without getting in the way. And one
Speaker 1: day I hear Ronnie Hawkins say I got to make
Speaker 1: a new record and I need some new songs, you know.
Speaker 1: So I went home and I wrote two songs and
Speaker 1: brought him back to him, said I wrote a couple
Speaker 1: of songs. I don't know if they're you know what
Speaker 1: you're looking for. So we played him played the new songs,
Speaker 1: and he said, damn son, I'm going to record both
Speaker 1: of those. They weren't any good, you know. I was
Speaker 1: just trying to get in the door. So so I
Speaker 1: wrote this song called someone Like You. I think didn't
Speaker 1: Adele steal that title from me? So anyway, so he
Speaker 1: records the songs, he records the album, comes back to Toronto.
Speaker 1: They're playing at a club, the Leacock Door in Toronto.
Speaker 1: Brings me the album with the songs on it, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, cutting my finger trying to get this album
Speaker 1: opened to look and see it on the song credits
Speaker 1: that everything, there's the two songs, and there's my name,
Speaker 1: but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said,
Speaker 1: who's Levy? I did there was no Levy there when
Speaker 1: I wrote these songs. It was Morris Levy, who owned
Speaker 1: the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. So
Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy, how can he just put his
Speaker 1: name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying son in
Speaker 1: this business some you know. He was just giving the
Speaker 1: old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, this
Speaker 1: is just wrong though he wasn't And I'm telling him, Ronnie,
Speaker 1: he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm a kid,
Speaker 1: what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, it's on
Speaker 1: these guys, these guys up there in New York, and
Speaker 1: you don't want to mess around with them. They're the
Speaker 1: kind of people you know that you know you're get
Speaker 1: in their way, you know, and they find you in
Speaker 1: the river. Then he's giving you this whole story. I'm like,
Speaker 1: in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime
Speaker 1: later Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs,
Speaker 1: I can, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I
Speaker 1: was good. I'm going to take you to New York
Speaker 1: and I'm going to take you to the Brill Building
Speaker 1: and we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna
Speaker 1: listen to their songs and see if there's something that
Speaker 1: would be good for me to record. Right, So, anyway
Speaker 1: we go and I meet Doc Thomas and Mark Schumann,
Speaker 1: I meet Lidburne Stroll, I meet Otis Blackwell's in my book, Rick.
Speaker 1: When you read that and you hear this whole story,
Speaker 1: it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys,
Speaker 1: and Otis Blackwell he's trying to think of a song
Speaker 1: that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little
Speaker 1: room and he's playing a thing on the piano and
Speaker 1: he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and
Speaker 1: Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel.
Speaker 1: While he's he's telling me the story and accompanying himself
Speaker 1: on the piano, right, And it's like, this is amazing,
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, And then Lieber and Stoller are
Speaker 1: playing me songs and I'm like, wow, that is a
Speaker 1: Lieber and Stoller and I'm saying it's great. Do you
Speaker 1: have anymore? And then and finally Jerry Lieber says to me,
Speaker 1: and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: just you know, one of is like I was in
Speaker 1: heaven and Doc Palmas and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas
Speaker 1: and Schumann we went on to be friends of mine
Speaker 1: for the rest of their life, as long as they live.
Speaker 1: We were still in contact and friends of mine from
Speaker 1: that very early point. So we are recording, I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to
Speaker 1: go up to the record company and we have to
Speaker 1: see Morris about some things and everything. I think, great,
Speaker 1: we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all. Right,
Speaker 1: So we go up to this office and it's like
Speaker 1: a scene writer of that Damian Runyon would have written
Speaker 1: it is. There are blondes on the telephone with their
Speaker 1: hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right.
Speaker 1: And then there's these guys in Mohera's suits with pock
Speaker 1: marks and a bulge in their you know, in their suit,
Speaker 1: like on this one side I'm thinking, Wow, these people
Speaker 1: think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing,
Speaker 1: and then maybe it is real. Right. So then the
Speaker 1: door opens and Maurice Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love
Speaker 1: this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what
Speaker 1: happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes
Speaker 1: like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way.
Speaker 1: How old was mars Levy at this time? Would you say?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I would say late thirties. Wow, hew,
Speaker 1: old are you? I'm at fifteen and a half. I'm
Speaker 1: by now, I'm pushing sixteen. Right. So anyway, so we
Speaker 1: go in and Annie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's
Speaker 1: doing the camel walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him.
Speaker 1: So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was
Speaker 1: telling you about that I think has a lot of potential. Right.
Speaker 1: So Morris is there and he finally he looks at
Speaker 1: me and says, yeah. He said, if you have to
Speaker 1: do any time, be good to have him with you.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, what is it. He means, if you
Speaker 1: have to go to prison, he could be your boy.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely.
Speaker 1: I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling you.
Speaker 1: So anyway, after this stuff and we and we did
Speaker 1: find some songs that he recorded, and then a few
Speaker 1: months later he calls me and tells me to come
Speaker 1: down to Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better
Speaker 1: and better as a guitar player. And he does think.
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but this guy's got
Speaker 1: something or another. And then I go on this mission
Speaker 1: to prove because at sixteen years old, I don't have
Speaker 1: the experience. I'm not a good enough musician yet. And
Speaker 1: I'm from Canada. It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so
Speaker 1: it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain
Speaker 1: to climb and that and I went down there and
Speaker 1: I ended up winning that battle. How much did you
Speaker 1: practice back then? Do you remember, like to get in
Speaker 1: your mind to get the job. What was it like?
Speaker 1: I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke
Speaker 1: up many mornings in the bed beside was my guitar.
Speaker 1: So I just I just thought, I can't I can't
Speaker 1: let this go bybe because just to convince my mother too,
Speaker 1: at sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going
Speaker 1: to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock
Speaker 1: and roll band. You know, She's like, what you know,
Speaker 1: she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except
Speaker 1: she could see in my eyes this thing that was
Speaker 1: so driven and that it was and I and it
Speaker 1: was like, if I don't try, if I if I
Speaker 1: don't do this, I'm going to be sorry the rest
Speaker 1: of my life. This is the biggest opportunity, you know,
Speaker 1: it couldn't have been in my mind, a bigger, you know,
Speaker 1: bigger thing. So and I went down there, and Ronnie
Speaker 1: Hawkins was like, oh, Son, you're too young, You're too good.
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is gonna work out. And
Speaker 1: I was like, you'll see, and I play. I lied
Speaker 1: about my age, you know, for you know, five years.
Speaker 1: Did you did you look older than fifteen or fifteen?
Speaker 1: I was sixteen now sixteen. And Ronnie Hawkins actually said
Speaker 1: to me, he would say, Son, can you do something?
Speaker 1: Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at
Speaker 1: the time, and I didn't know what to do. And
Speaker 1: I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing.
Speaker 1: And my face was rough from this elness. All it
Speaker 1: did was make me red. It didn't make me grow
Speaker 1: any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while
Speaker 1: where we played, I would stand kind of back a
Speaker 1: little bit in the dark, you know, and because there
Speaker 1: would be lights and everything, and I knew just to
Speaker 1: get out of the way of the lights. And then
Speaker 1: between sets that we would play, I would just go
Speaker 1: in the back room and stay there till it was
Speaker 1: time to go on again. Because there was club guys saying, hey,
Speaker 1: I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie.
Speaker 1: And Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about her
Speaker 1: all blah blah blah blah, and he had to do
Speaker 1: all this double talking and things, and he would say, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: It's like we call him baby face. He just he
Speaker 1: just looks young, you know. He's he's old enough. He's
Speaker 1: just he just looks young. But Levon he joined Ronnie
Speaker 1: when he was eighteen, after he graduated from high school,
Speaker 1: and he looked very young, and they got away with it.
Speaker 1: So he thought, well, if he could get her away
Speaker 1: with it from him, you know. Uh. And then a
Speaker 1: year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins, all the guys
Speaker 1: from the South except Levon, were were leaving one by one,
Speaker 1: and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. We
Speaker 1: hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then Richard
Speaker 1: Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Guards Hudson who
Speaker 1: was from London, Ontario, and they all had their own bands,
Speaker 1: so we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all
Speaker 1: of these bands. I was one of those two and
Speaker 1: that Levan, and I said, we got to get that kid.
Speaker 1: He's you know, he's got potential. We'll be back with
Speaker 1: more from Robbie Robertson after the break. We're back with
Speaker 1: more from Robbie robertson. When in all this did you
Speaker 1: start writing the music that became what we know as
Speaker 1: the band music, Not the actual songs, but when did
Speaker 1: you start hitting on those ideas when the Hawks were
Speaker 1: the personnel the people that went on to become the band.
Speaker 1: At one point, we outgrew the music that we were
Speaker 1: doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and we were experimenting with other
Speaker 1: kinds of songs and other kinds of music and reaching
Speaker 1: deeper and getting better and better, and finally it's you know,
Speaker 1: we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins.
Speaker 1: So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay,
Speaker 1: we're going to go out and we're going to play
Speaker 1: some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get
Speaker 1: a record deal, you know, and become who we are,
Speaker 1: you know. And so I started messing around with writing
Speaker 1: some ideas. Was I was the only one that thought
Speaker 1: about songwriting in the group at that time because I
Speaker 1: had written songs before. It was kind of like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I guess someone's got to do it. I got to
Speaker 1: do it right, And so I started writing some things then.
Speaker 1: And then just as we were getting a record deal
Speaker 1: and starting to do something, this fellow named Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: came along and asked if we would help take him
Speaker 1: electric and be his band on a world tour. So
Speaker 1: that kind of, you know, it just put everything on
Speaker 1: hold a little bit. But it was like a phenomenal
Speaker 1: experience what this guy was doing at the time. This
Speaker 1: is just when he was going from being the you know,
Speaker 1: the man in folk songwriting to wanting to do something
Speaker 1: else and wanting to play make music with other musicians
Speaker 1: and not just him in a guitar and harmonica. And
Speaker 1: that was really interesting to me. He was really interesting
Speaker 1: to me. I loved this idea. Some of the other
Speaker 1: guys were like, hmm, I'm not sure about this. You know,
Speaker 1: we were on from the other side of the tracks.
Speaker 1: We weren't from the folk music world at all. So anyway,
Speaker 1: it was like an interesting experiment and terror playing with
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. And we toured with him all over North America,
Speaker 1: all over Australia, all over Europe, and people booed and
Speaker 1: through stuff at us every night, just about everywhere we played,
Speaker 1: and you couldn't help but think, well, who else has
Speaker 1: been through this? Who else knows how this feels. There
Speaker 1: wasn't anybody on that list. I didn't know that this
Speaker 1: had ever happened before. And I'm sure, but not with
Speaker 1: somebody who's on the crest of changing music forever and
Speaker 1: writing songs like nobody's ever written before, and all of
Speaker 1: this stuff that every night we get booed and we
Speaker 1: get through this whole thing alive. So after we got
Speaker 1: through it alive, then it was really time for me
Speaker 1: to start thinking about writing songs, because it was like,
Speaker 1: we've done the experiment with Bob Dylan. Now we got
Speaker 1: to get back to doing our own thing. And that's
Speaker 1: when we were doing the basement tapes at Big Pink,
Speaker 1: and it's where, you know, when I started writing and
Speaker 1: thinking about who are we, what do we sound like?
Speaker 1: What are these stories? You know, you said that Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan was interesting to you. Why were you interesting to
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan? Probably because we were a real band, a
Speaker 1: real band that played. We weren't some studio musicians that
Speaker 1: you could hire. We were a band that knew how
Speaker 1: to play with one another and had a language already
Speaker 1: that we spoke with one another. And so this unit
Speaker 1: coming in that had a sound that had a thing
Speaker 1: amongst them, you know, it was like something ready made.
Speaker 1: In the beginning, when I first met with him, he
Speaker 1: was trying to hire me away from the group to
Speaker 1: play guitar with him and some other musicians, and so
Speaker 1: I had to say, no, no, I'm with a group.
Speaker 1: Were a brotherhood. So he was fine with that, did
Speaker 1: he know he wasn't fine in the beginning, And he
Speaker 1: was like, no, no, I got some other guys and
Speaker 1: you know that a really good and everything. And I
Speaker 1: was like, then I can't do it, you know, And
Speaker 1: so so he came around. Was there a tryout or
Speaker 1: he just said, let's do this, you know what the
Speaker 1: tryout was. So I played two jobs with him and
Speaker 1: I said, I can only do it if lev On
Speaker 1: is there too, and so yeah, he said to me,
Speaker 1: he's a drummer. He said, is he as good? There
Speaker 1: was this big studio drummer at the time, Bobby Greg
Speaker 1: was his name, and he said, is he as good
Speaker 1: as Bobby Greg? I said, oh, he's better than Bobby Greg,
Speaker 1: you know, And he said, oh, okay. So anyway, we
Speaker 1: leve On and I played with him and some other
Speaker 1: musicians for just at two jobs we said we would do.
Speaker 1: And it was at Forest Hills in New York and
Speaker 1: the Hollywood Bowl and they and they booed, you know,
Speaker 1: it was like whoa, what's that about? And charge the
Speaker 1: stage and I hated it. What was your reaction to that?
Speaker 1: We just played louder and they hated it more, and
Speaker 1: I thought, if Bob can handle this, we can handle this,
Speaker 1: you know, And so we just kept going and going
Speaker 1: and it was hurtful. And then there was a point
Speaker 1: in this tour because sometimes they would tape the shows,
Speaker 1: you know, on reel to reel. They would tape it
Speaker 1: and see how the sound man would see how it
Speaker 1: was sounding, because it was like, maybe it's a sound
Speaker 1: man for all the fault. So there was a point
Speaker 1: in the tour where we have one of these tapes
Speaker 1: and to the show. We're sitting in the hotel room
Speaker 1: listening to this tape and I said to the other
Speaker 1: guys and Bob, they're wrong, they're wrong. This is good,
Speaker 1: this is really good, and the world is wrong and
Speaker 1: we're right. And it wasn't because I was sure of that.
Speaker 1: It was because if you didn't say that, it would
Speaker 1: be like, this is we're in a terrible situation. And
Speaker 1: it just gave you the feistiness or the strength to
Speaker 1: say we're doing something here, and if you don't get it,
Speaker 1: it's your fault. You had to take that attitude. And
Speaker 1: we played all over the world and ended up with
Speaker 1: people booing as loud as ever. And we're playing at
Speaker 1: Albert Hall and and the Beatles are there, and the
Speaker 1: Stones are there, and the Who are there, and everybody's there,
Speaker 1: and the audience is booing us and they're all watching this,
Speaker 1: and that is that's really awkward. When there's people musicians
Speaker 1: that you want to impress and everybody's booing you you think,
Speaker 1: how do you possibly think we're any good when everybody's
Speaker 1: booing us. Those guys like it, the Beatles. The Beatles said,
Speaker 1: don't pay any attention to that. They're wrong. This was
Speaker 1: really good, so I was kind of like see. But
Speaker 1: Levon didn't like it though. He didn't like that. Nobody
Speaker 1: likes being booed and people throwing stuff at you. Uh
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm I'm quite convinced of that. But
Speaker 1: lee Von didn't like the music. He didn't like Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan's music. He didn't like any of this and didn't
Speaker 1: want to be playing with him at all. Levon left.
Speaker 1: Then when we all moved to Woodstock and we had
Speaker 1: Big Pink, we called Levon and said, okay, you gotta
Speaker 1: it's time to come back. And he came back, and
Speaker 1: Bob was like a different guy. He looked completely different,
Speaker 1: and he was writing songs and he was you know,
Speaker 1: it was just great. And Levin came back and loved
Speaker 1: it all, loved being you know, back with his brothers
Speaker 1: and loved Bob and came around on the music. He
Speaker 1: understood something, he had time to understand it. Plus the
Speaker 1: songs that I was starting to write. He was like, Oh,
Speaker 1: that's who we are, you know. So the pieces were
Speaker 1: coming together and he came back to the fold bigger
Speaker 1: and stronger than ever. When did you know you had
Speaker 1: or was there a particular song that when you finished
Speaker 1: you said, Okay, this is our sound. I think I'm
Speaker 1: getting it. Was there one moment or one song that
Speaker 1: kind of gave you the idea for what the band
Speaker 1: could be. No, I didn't know. We were just experimenting
Speaker 1: and in a discovery process. I didn't know it until
Speaker 1: we were recording it. And I was playing something for
Speaker 1: Rick the other day that we recorded something and it
Speaker 1: was breaking all kinds of rules and the way you
Speaker 1: record and what you do and what you're not supposed
Speaker 1: to do and everything, and we were trying this and
Speaker 1: it was it was discouraging what they were telling us
Speaker 1: going into it, but we were doing what we knew
Speaker 1: how to do. And we recorded it and then we
Speaker 1: went in and heard it and I said, that's it.
Speaker 1: That's what who we are, that's what we sound like.
Speaker 1: And it was unlike anybody else or anything. And still
Speaker 1: at the time, you think, and that's either a good
Speaker 1: thing or a bad thing. That song was what well,
Speaker 1: there was two songs that I played for him. One
Speaker 1: song was called Tears of Rage, which was the first
Speaker 1: song that we recorded on the album, and it's the
Speaker 1: first song on the album. And then we recorded a
Speaker 1: song called The Wait. And then when we recorded these songs,
Speaker 1: it was like, Okay, can you tell me a little
Speaker 1: bit about writing the Weight, because it's just such an
Speaker 1: unusual song, like how it came to you or well,
Speaker 1: I was this was a song, This was a spare song.
Speaker 1: This was a song that I had that if something
Speaker 1: else didn't work out, we could use it. So we
Speaker 1: had to put it together mostly right there in the studio.
Speaker 1: I had played it for the guys before and everybody thought, yeah, cool,
Speaker 1: you know, but nobody was like, whoa, that's it, that's
Speaker 1: a you know, none of us knew. And then when
Speaker 1: I was writing this song, I was drawing on these
Speaker 1: influences from when I was sixteen years old and went
Speaker 1: from Canada down to the Mississippi Delta. Some of those characters,
Speaker 1: some of those images were you know, I had now
Speaker 1: pulled them out of my trunk of imagination and I
Speaker 1: was incorporating them into a musicality and in the stories.
Speaker 1: And I was also very much, which I've you know,
Speaker 1: I've said this before that I was very much into
Speaker 1: Lewis boon Well's films and there was there was something,
Speaker 1: there was something in his a thematic thread in some
Speaker 1: of his movies that I couldn't get over. And it
Speaker 1: was really about people trying to be good, really trying
Speaker 1: to do the right thing, and then something comes along
Speaker 1: and something turns it upside down on its head, right.
Speaker 1: And so this was a story about a guy who
Speaker 1: comes into this town. It's called Nazareth, and it's because
Speaker 1: that's where the guitar company is from. So I look
Speaker 1: in my guitar and it says Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Right. So
Speaker 1: I look in there and I say, I pulled into Nazareth, right.
Speaker 1: And I start writing this story, and it's about a
Speaker 1: guy who goes somewhere and everybody that he runs into
Speaker 1: it's like he's just trying to be of goodwill. He's
Speaker 1: just trying to do the right thing. And it turns
Speaker 1: into it's like the old saying, it depends on who
Speaker 1: you run into and storytelling. You're going along, you think
Speaker 1: you've got an idea, but it depends on who you
Speaker 1: run into, right, And so I'm thinking of all of
Speaker 1: these characters, and some of them are based on characters
Speaker 1: that I imagined or I met when I went down
Speaker 1: to the Mississippi Delta, and I'm thinking, what would be
Speaker 1: really cool for leave On. I knew his instrument really well,
Speaker 1: of his voice and everything, and um, and I thought
Speaker 1: I thought I was doing a Lewis Boonwell thing. I wasn't,
Speaker 1: but I thought I was right, and I thought I
Speaker 1: was and I when I wrote the song, I thought, ah,
Speaker 1: there's I never heard that song before. Maybe that's good,
Speaker 1: you know, but it was unfamiliar. And so with that,
Speaker 1: you think, geez, I don't know, is that is that
Speaker 1: good or bad? Is that different or just obscure, you know,
Speaker 1: like record producers have to consider when they're making music.
Speaker 1: And so when I taught the song to the guys,
Speaker 1: and everybody was kind of enjoying. They knew where I
Speaker 1: was coming from in some of these things. The other
Speaker 1: guys didn't care about Lewis boo Well or anything, but
Speaker 1: I did. And so anyway, they they took the ride
Speaker 1: on it, and as we were getting into it, we
Speaker 1: were kind of smiling to one another, like that verse
Speaker 1: that Carmen and the devil verse. You know, that's pretty cool,
Speaker 1: and then all this thing and ah, and then it
Speaker 1: has like a conclusion that ties it together or something
Speaker 1: like a movie would all of these things. I've just
Speaker 1: been a movie bug, you know, so long. So anyway,
Speaker 1: I was making a little movie. And then we record
Speaker 1: the song and I have no idea except we got
Speaker 1: through the whole song, didn't make a mistake, felt pretty good.
Speaker 1: We went in and listened to it and I thought,
Speaker 1: holy moly, that's a thing. That's a thing right there,
Speaker 1: that's a sound that's I haven't heard that before, you know,
Speaker 1: And all of those things then add up for you inside.
Speaker 1: You know, can you put your finger on what was
Speaker 1: so unique about that sound? Or is it just a
Speaker 1: kind of gestalt thing that No, And that's part of
Speaker 1: the great holy mystery that you really don't know. And
Speaker 1: if you think you do, then you're not ready for
Speaker 1: a good surprise, you know, going in and I say, Garth,
Speaker 1: why don't you play piano on this? And Richard you
Speaker 1: play Oregon? And then when we get to this part
Speaker 1: in this song, why don't we do this? And wait?
Speaker 1: And then you come in, and then you come in,
Speaker 1: and then you come in together and then you know,
Speaker 1: and then that folds over on top of itself. And
Speaker 1: all of these ideas I had no idea whether if
Speaker 1: they were good ideas. I thought that, you know, it's
Speaker 1: enough to make you want to do something. Then we
Speaker 1: got the song and I say, you know what, on
Speaker 1: this second last verse, Rick, why don't you take over
Speaker 1: the lead vocal on that? It just seemed like a
Speaker 1: good idea at the time, And once again, it wasn't
Speaker 1: until we went in that control room heard it over
Speaker 1: those speakers that Garth playing the piano on that really
Speaker 1: made sense. That Levan's drums with these big tune down
Speaker 1: Tom's that I had asked him if he'd be okay
Speaker 1: doing and his vocal. I wasn't even sure this is
Speaker 1: the key I wrote it in. I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's a good key for you to sing it in.
Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, no, I think it's okay. So
Speaker 1: all of these things are way up in the air
Speaker 1: and no idea really, and then when you hear it
Speaker 1: all come together and those pieces of the puzzle actually fit,
Speaker 1: that's when you say, yeah, I knew along. We'll be
Speaker 1: back with more from Robbie Robertson. After the break, we're
Speaker 1: back with more of our conversation with Robbie Robertson. The
Speaker 1: band eventually broke up with one final concert in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy six. It was filmed by Martin Scorsese and released
Speaker 1: as The Last Waltz. It's become legendary and kicked off
Speaker 1: a decades long working relationship between Robbie and Scorsese, starting
Speaker 1: with Raging Bull. Robbie's done the music for most of
Speaker 1: Scorsese's films, including his most recent The Irishman. Not too
Speaker 1: long ago, Rick discovered a piece of music that he loved,
Speaker 1: and when he found out it was from a Scorsese movie,
Speaker 1: he had to ask Robbie about his involvement. So I
Speaker 1: heard this on the radio, on some obscure streaming thing.
Speaker 1: I had no idea what it was and started researching
Speaker 1: trying to find out because I hadn't heard anything like
Speaker 1: this before. It was fascinating to me, and it was
Speaker 1: fascinating because the I was familiar with the music, but
Speaker 1: not familiar enough to know what it was. But I
Speaker 1: feel like I'd heard the music before. And then I'm
Speaker 1: listening to the vocals and I'm thinking this the singer
Speaker 1: is unbelievable, But it sounds like the singer's not listening
Speaker 1: to the music she's singing to, even though it fits
Speaker 1: like it clearly works, but there's a strange, alien connection
Speaker 1: to it, and it just sounds like magic. To me.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a brand new kind of music. So
Speaker 1: when I saw Robbie the other day, I asked him
Speaker 1: about it, because I didn't know who made it, but
Speaker 1: I knew that it was in a soundtrack that he
Speaker 1: was involved in, and I asked him how it came
Speaker 1: to pass, and tell us how it came to pass.
Speaker 1: I was working on the music from Martin Scorsese's movie
Speaker 1: Shutter Island and uh and and I was I was
Speaker 1: on a roll of a certain kind of music that
Speaker 1: him and I hadn't really experimented with much before, with
Speaker 1: Christoph Penderski, who is somebody that I've admired for years.
Speaker 1: And I told I've said to Marty over some day, sometime,
Speaker 1: we've got to find a way to use some Penderski
Speaker 1: and some John Cage and some you know, modern classical
Speaker 1: musics in a movie. So when he decided he was
Speaker 1: going to direct this film, and he sent me the
Speaker 1: script and uh and he said, yeah, it give you
Speaker 1: any ideas, And I said, this is it, this is
Speaker 1: the time, this is when we can. I think we can.
Speaker 1: He said, whoa really modern classical music and that, he said,
Speaker 1: interesting because it's a it's a movie about insanity, and
Speaker 1: modern classical music is fearless and expressing some of that
Speaker 1: part of the mind. So anyway, we did a lot
Speaker 1: of things in the movie and it was great fun
Speaker 1: and so we you know, all this stuff. And then
Speaker 1: at the end it was like he said, I said,
Speaker 1: I don't have anything figured out yet for the end
Speaker 1: of the movie and the end credits. So I had
Speaker 1: heard this piece of music by this composer, Max Richter.
Speaker 1: I think it's called Daylight something or um. But anyway,
Speaker 1: i'd heard this piece of music and there was almost
Speaker 1: the dodgioish, you know, there was something that really pulled
Speaker 1: on your heartstrings in it, and and it fit in
Speaker 1: to the other world that we were experimenting. And there
Speaker 1: was a song that I knew about for years that
Speaker 1: just that stayed with me by Dinah Washington, who has
Speaker 1: always been a favorite of mine. Her sound, her interpretation,
Speaker 1: I've you know, she's just one of my faves over
Speaker 1: the years. So I'm thinking about this song, this Bitter
Speaker 1: Earth that she's sang, I'm thinking about this Max Richter
Speaker 1: classical piece and I and there was a connection there
Speaker 1: for me. So then I I have them. I check it.
Speaker 1: They're both in the same key. Hmm. So I then
Speaker 1: took the Dinah Washington piece and I cut out each
Speaker 1: of her lines in the song like you would a
Speaker 1: sample and hip hop you know it. So I had
Speaker 1: her whole performance. Now I've got the Max Richter piece.
Speaker 1: So I take her line by line and lay her
Speaker 1: in the way I would have sung it on top
Speaker 1: of the Max Richter thing. I just put her there
Speaker 1: and I do this thing. And it's I don't even
Speaker 1: know if you're allowed to do that. It's like, can
Speaker 1: you do that with Dinah Washington and this great composer
Speaker 1: Max Richter. I don't know, but I can't help but
Speaker 1: do this. So I lay this stuff in. I send
Speaker 1: it to Scarsese and say, I've tried something here, but
Speaker 1: I've got to warn you. I don't know that this
Speaker 1: is okay, but there's something about it. And see what
Speaker 1: So he said, what do you mean not okay? And
Speaker 1: I said, I've taken a liberty on this thing, and
Speaker 1: I'm taking somebody's music and I'm putting it with somebody
Speaker 1: else's music. And this is not like a little sample
Speaker 1: in a hip hop too and where we're playing a
Speaker 1: little riff of James Brown here for a moment and
Speaker 1: then we're onto something else. This is the whole piece
Speaker 1: of these two artists. So anyway, I send it and
Speaker 1: he says, oh my god, this is beautiful and it's
Speaker 1: perfect at the end of this movie, and what did
Speaker 1: this thing and to have this bitter earth come on
Speaker 1: after this thing? And so anyway, so then I say, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to call them and ask him if
Speaker 1: it's okay. Somebody has to call Max Richter and Dinah
Speaker 1: Washington's family or kids or whoever and see if it's
Speaker 1: okay that I've done this right. And they called and
Speaker 1: they get the coming back and they said they heard
Speaker 1: it and they love it. I thought, wow, that's a
Speaker 1: really good sign, you know, because a lot of people
Speaker 1: are like, you cannot mess with this, you know, you
Speaker 1: you know, you can't cross that line. That's that's a sin, right,
Speaker 1: And that they said they liked it. So anyway, it
Speaker 1: ended up at the end of this movie. And I
Speaker 1: was telling Rick the other day some months ago, I'm
Speaker 1: watching a French movie that I was curious about. I'm
Speaker 1: watching this movie, and throughout the movie they used this
Speaker 1: piece of music, and so I'd say to Martin SCORSESEI
Speaker 1: I said, Wow, I was watching this movie and they're
Speaker 1: using this throughout the movie, not just once. They're using it,
Speaker 1: you know, a few times. And he says, they can't
Speaker 1: do that. I said, they did. It might be too
Speaker 1: late for us to object. And then they looked at
Speaker 1: the soundtrack and they said, who's Morris Levy? Why is he? Yeah,
Speaker 1: it makes her voice sounds like I was thinking, I
Speaker 1: kind know that voice. Yeah, I never would have guessed.
Speaker 1: I never would have made the connection. It sounds some
Speaker 1: marks exactly. It's like it's so modern. It felt just
Speaker 1: completely about guard but beautiful and unlike anything I heard before.
Speaker 1: Thanks to Robbie Robertson for a coming on the show,
Speaker 1: and of course for reading Shane RelA. You can hear
Speaker 1: some of Robbie's music, including songs Office twenty nineteen release Cinematic,
Speaker 1: by listening to our playlist for this episode at Broken
Speaker 1: Record podcast dot com. And while you're there, sign up
Speaker 1: for our Behind the Salmon's newsletter. Broken Record is produced
Speaker 1: help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Mia Lobelle and is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. Our THEE Musics by Kenny Beats.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.