WEBVTT - Robbie Robertson: Leader of The Band and Architect of Shangri La 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:14.120 Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a special 0:00:14.160 --> 0:00:18.240 episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin, 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.880 Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, but because 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:26.280 it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. Of today's guest, 0:00:26.840 --> 0:00:31.400 that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminiscence about converting a 0:00:31.480 --> 0:00:35.160 home in Malibu into the now legendary recording studio run 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:38.680 by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:41.639 days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:46.080 known as the Hawks, and they also discussed Robbie's longtime 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:49.920 work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.120 nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We should also note 0:00:54.160 --> 0:00:57.120 that if you liked this episode, there's a new documentary 0:00:57.240 --> 0:01:00.800 called Once We're Brothers Robbie Robertson and the Band that 0:01:00.840 --> 0:01:07.160 are Becoming out in theaters on February twenty first, this 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:10.120 is Broken Record line of notes to the digital Age. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:15.480 I'm justin Mitchell. Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.480 Head Them from Shango La speaking with the studios architect. 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:24.440 Robbie Robertson. We had a fantastic day the other day here, 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:28.200 and when I was telling the stories of Shangri La, 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:33.600 you know, the stories, he envisioned this place and built 0:01:33.640 --> 0:01:38.400 it and it was unbelievable and it was mine. You know. 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:42.560 The other guys in the band thought this was a 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:47.960 good idea. But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's 0:01:48.000 --> 0:01:53.000 house to the Woos, we made these records in not 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.960 in studios and other places where there was an atmosphere 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:02.960 that could be our atmosphere here and our sound, you know, 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:09.120 and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.480 if somebody else's wavelength, you know, you would go into 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:14.959 the studio and there'd be these used to be these 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:17.240 Union guys, and they'd be like, oh, it looks like 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.560 it's lunchtime. We're like, what are you talking about lunchtime? 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:24.320 We're we're you know, we're about to do something. And 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:27.240 they'd be and I'd be like, I don't know, this 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.520 should be louder. They don't touch that, you know, So 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:34.160 I don't want that. I don't I don't want to 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:36.200 do that. So I said, what we're going to do 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:42.440 is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:48.440 studio things. That is our world and our music, our sound. 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:52.960 And whether it was true or not, I believed that 0:02:53.080 --> 0:02:56.959 it gave it a character and a thing, which it 0:02:57.000 --> 0:02:59.840 did for better or worse. What's what's interesting about that 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:04.359 is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah, that said, 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.359 when you did it technologically, it was much more difficult 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:11.280 to do. Like, when you did it you needed big 0:03:11.320 --> 0:03:14.120 studio equipment. Like today people can do it on their laptop, 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:17.280 so they could it's easier to make that jump. But 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.200 when you did it, the infrastructure involved was not easy 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:26.440 to pull off. It was unheard of except for Les 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:31.359 Paul Less. Paul said, I'm going to build a studio 0:03:31.440 --> 0:03:36.280 at my house, and I'm gonna build an echo chamber 0:03:36.320 --> 0:03:39.600 into the side of this hill, right, and he was 0:03:39.640 --> 0:03:42.560 going to do all of these things. I had an 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.720 argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able 0:03:46.720 --> 0:03:50.840 to do this kind of thing, and because he was saying, 0:03:51.000 --> 0:03:53.480 I only like to play live just with my band 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:55.880 and I go in and we sing and they play 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:00.560 this song and we capture a moment. All done that. 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.720 I know it really well. I played ricks some music 0:04:03.800 --> 0:04:07.920 the other day that was all like first or second takes, 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:11.720 and it was you know songs you've heard, Yeah, songs 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:15.440 you've heard a lot. So anyway, Savannah is saying, it's 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.640 gotta be live and it's gotta be bubbla va and 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:19.000 that's the way it used to be and it's a 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:23.120 way to dab by. And I said, what about Les Paul. 0:04:23.839 --> 0:04:28.440 He overdubbed, he made things, he played on top of himself, 0:04:28.480 --> 0:04:32.559 he double tracked things, He invented it. So Silvan says, 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:37.920 I know, but he was magic. Wait made you did 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:42.760 you recorded at Sammy Davis Junior's house. Yes, we made 0:04:44.040 --> 0:04:48.919 the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. And we rented 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:53.080 Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood it's up Sunset 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:57.719 Plaza in the Hollywood Hills, and we all stayed in 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.640 the house for the family. And we turned the woolhouse 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:05.080 where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra 0:05:05.279 --> 0:05:08.520 in the rat back and all these people. We turned 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:14.080 that poolhouse into a studio. And the record company thought 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.240 this was the worst idea they ever heard. They thought 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:22.680 this was ridiculous. He said, drive fifteen minutes. We have 0:05:22.800 --> 0:05:25.640 the best studio in the world here. Frank's not for 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:30.560 records here right, all of this stuff, and I was like, no, no, no, 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:36.040 this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:38.800 I guess I don't know what you're doing and it's 0:05:38.800 --> 0:05:43.520 probably going to be bad. But didn't chump up. Sammy 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:47.000 Davis Junior. He owned, he still owned the house. He 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.320 didn't live there, so was imagining him like he lived 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:57.760 there stepping but everything in the house was built lower. 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:02.039 You go into the the bathroom and the sink was 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:06.000 down here, and it was everything was built to his specifications, 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:10.520 you know. And and it seemed like this is great, 0:06:11.920 --> 0:06:17.039 This is great Sammy's world, you know. And so we 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:22.080 recorded the album there and then we mix it, or 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.520 we're going to mix the record, and there's this guy 0:06:25.360 --> 0:06:28.560 in New York, Tony May was his name, and he 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.520 had mixed the Eisley Brothers. It's your thing, do what 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.839 you want to do. So it was such a great 0:06:34.880 --> 0:06:38.240 sounding record, we said, wow, let's see if we can 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.880 get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.040 Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he 0:06:44.120 --> 0:06:46.279 comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:52.039 and he says, these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:57.120 to do a lot of work on this, and I thought, hmmm, 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.760 I don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway, 0:07:00.800 --> 0:07:03.640 he did a mix there was not what I wanted 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.640 at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. 0:07:06.279 --> 0:07:10.680 So anyway, we're like, thanks tony Ce, you know, and 0:07:10.760 --> 0:07:14.480 which song on which songs? These? These were on the 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:18.040 band album? It was the night they drove Old Dixie 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:24.400 down up on Crippled Creek, uh, you know, Whispering Pines. 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:31.760 His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.480 and and there was a woodiness to it. There was 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.760 a muddiness to it that that suited the music. It 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:45.720 was earthy and I wanted that right. But he didn't 0:07:45.720 --> 0:07:49.040 get the jokes. So that was okay. So I went 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:53.680 and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:57.120 the at the old Jerry Raga Voice Hid Factory in 0:07:57.200 --> 0:08:00.680 New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed that, 0:08:00.760 --> 0:08:02.800 the guys in the band, we were all in there 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:07.320 moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted. 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:11.240 So we get it and then it's like, okay. The guy, 0:08:11.920 --> 0:08:16.960 the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwick, you gotta 0:08:17.000 --> 0:08:20.320 get him to master your record. So we take the 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:25.120 record to Bob Ludwick and he puts it, you know, 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:28.040 he puts on the tape of the mixes and everything, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.520 and he says, oh boy, He's like Tony May. He's like, 0:08:33.280 --> 0:08:36.160 I don't know. I'm gonna try. I'll see if I 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:40.000 can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm, 0:08:40.840 --> 0:08:44.200 that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the 0:08:44.240 --> 0:08:46.920 other guys. I said, I don't know, we might have 0:08:47.000 --> 0:08:51.720 done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's it's terrible and that, 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.600 you know, so the net I don't know. A couple 0:08:55.640 --> 0:09:01.280 of days later, Bob Ludwick calls me and he says, 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.480 I am such an idiot. I am such a fool. 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:12.160 I didn't get it. I so get it. This is 0:09:12.679 --> 0:09:16.920 maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said, 0:09:17.040 --> 0:09:21.080 I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwig, 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:27.280 he said, I made the same mistake when sly Stone 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:31.200 brought me there's a riot going on. I thought that 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:34.960 that was a big mistake too, And he said, and 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.840 then I've realized it. You know, I had to accept 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:43.240 it the way that I accepted your record, And so 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:48.240 I was like, because I thought he was right, you know, 0:09:48.840 --> 0:09:50.560 and if he had a state with that, I don't 0:09:50.559 --> 0:09:53.880 know what would have happened. So he, you know, he 0:09:54.080 --> 0:09:58.480 mastered and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering, 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.960 and it was just one of those things. It was 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:06.319 a homemade thing. It did have that character to it, 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:10.719 and that was part of its specialness. He came very 0:10:10.720 --> 0:10:16.160 close to ruining two of the great masterpieces. Yeah, well, 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:19.959 I do remember actually the first songs he wrote, I 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.839 goes for Ronnie Hawkins. What were they like? Well? What 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.520 were they? Well? One of the reasons he hired me. 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:29.480 I wrote a couple of songs for him when I 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:32.960 was fifteen years old because I heard him say that 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.720 I need some songs, and I was trying to figure 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:41.160 out how I could crash into this world of Southern 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:46.400 rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.920 from the holy land in the South where this music 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:53.200 grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:58.640 fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:00.959 do it. And they were all from this house, and 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:05.320 they sounded that way and all of it. It's just okay. 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:09.040 And I'm up in Canada, so you know what I mean. 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.360 It feels like such a distance and I'm trying to 0:11:12.400 --> 0:11:16.160 figure out a way how can I become a part 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.920 of this How can I get into this club and 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:22.920 they'll accept me. So I hear him say I need 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.040 some So I go off and I write a couple 0:11:25.080 --> 0:11:27.440 of songs. Where are you when you write these songs 0:11:27.880 --> 0:11:32.920 in Toronto? I'm in Cabbage Town. You're in high school? Yeah, 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:37.840 I was fifteen. Did you know anything about writing songs? Well, yeah, 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:43.000 I'd written some songs already and this was just something 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.840 you just kind of boosted your game up. You know. 0:11:45.880 --> 0:11:48.360 As we go along, certain things happen and it makes 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.240 you think, Okay, now I got to take on this 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:55.120 challenge and if I can, if I can win that war, whoa, 0:11:55.240 --> 0:11:59.000 I'll now be this will be my starting place instead 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.720 of yours. What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.520 needed some new songs? Well? We I had a band 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:09.760 called Robbie and the Robots and we were an opening, 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.600 you know, act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:17.760 a weekend in a dance out in the West End 0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:22.080 of Toronto at an arena. So we went on and 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:27.800 played for Ronnie Hawkins and Ronnie and the other guys. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.520 They thought, Wow, these kids are not bad, you know, 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.960 they're not too bad, and that was all I needed 0:12:34.960 --> 0:12:37.760 to hear. So I was just trying to get some 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.360 of it. So I was hanging around, and then they 0:12:40.400 --> 0:12:44.640 went on and killed it. I had never heard anything 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:49.160 like that before, that far, that up close, you know, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:53.080 I just heard other bands the designed from Toronto, right 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.960 and or whatever. This was something and you had to 0:12:56.960 --> 0:13:00.320 get into clubs to really hear these people play. But 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.120 they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:08.000 see them play, and I'm like, this is unbelievable. A 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:13.640 real rockabilly band, right, like Carl Perkins and you know 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:17.120 Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, like you right out 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:21.000 of that school. So I think, and the energy and 0:13:21.040 --> 0:13:24.640 the excitement in the music, and Ronnie was an amazing 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.400 showman it and he always wanted to have killer musicians 0:13:28.480 --> 0:13:32.840 and they were great. So after they played, I was 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.600 just hanging around, trying to get some of it to 0:13:35.720 --> 0:13:39.120 rub off on me, you know, some of that musicality. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.040 And so I was trying to be helpful and hanging 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:48.080 around and then I you know, and and they ended 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:52.280 up liking me, and they said, uh, all right, you 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.959 know at the hotel, why don't you come by? And 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:57.480 I would just try to try to make myself useful, 0:13:57.760 --> 0:14:01.200 you know, and somebody needed a new string put on 0:14:01.240 --> 0:14:07.679 the guitar or whatever anything, you know. So I I 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:10.920 was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:15.000 as I could without getting in the way. And one 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.240 day I hear Ronnie Hawkins say I got to make 0:14:18.280 --> 0:14:20.760 a new record and I need some new songs, you know. 0:14:21.520 --> 0:14:25.480 So I went home and I wrote two songs and 0:14:25.600 --> 0:14:27.800 brought him back to him, said I wrote a couple 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:30.680 of songs. I don't know if they're you know what 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:36.680 you're looking for. So we played him played the new songs, 0:14:37.600 --> 0:14:41.480 and he said, damn son, I'm going to record both 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.440 of those. They weren't any good, you know. I was 0:14:45.480 --> 0:14:49.200 just trying to get in the door. So so I 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:54.000 wrote this song called someone Like You. I think didn't 0:14:54.040 --> 0:15:01.520 Adele steal that title from me? So anyway, so he 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:05.840 records the songs, he records the album, comes back to Toronto. 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:09.120 They're playing at a club, the Leacock Door in Toronto. 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.880 Brings me the album with the songs on it, and 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:16.800 I'm like, cutting my finger trying to get this album 0:15:16.800 --> 0:15:20.120 opened to look and see it on the song credits 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.480 that everything, there's the two songs, and there's my name, 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:30.280 but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, 0:15:31.560 --> 0:15:37.560 who's Levy? I did there was no Levy there when 0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:43.640 I wrote these songs. It was Morris Levy, who owned 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:48.360 the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. So 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.880 I'm like, this guy, how can he just put his 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:56.960 name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying son in 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.240 this business some you know. He was just giving the 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:04.280 old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, this 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.720 is just wrong though he wasn't And I'm telling him, Ronnie, 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.240 he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm a kid, 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.440 what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, it's on 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.520 these guys, these guys up there in New York, and 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:19.840 you don't want to mess around with them. They're the 0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:22.280 kind of people you know that you know you're get 0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:25.000 in their way, you know, and they find you in 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.400 the river. Then he's giving you this whole story. I'm like, 0:16:28.520 --> 0:16:33.720 in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.480 later Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs, 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.040 I can, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.160 was good. I'm going to take you to New York 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.520 and I'm going to take you to the Brill Building 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:48.960 and we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:51.400 listen to their songs and see if there's something that 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.640 would be good for me to record. Right, So, anyway 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.320 we go and I meet Doc Thomas and Mark Schumann, 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:03.880 I meet Lidburne Stroll, I meet Otis Blackwell's in my book, Rick. 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:07.400 When you read that and you hear this whole story, 0:17:07.920 --> 0:17:12.359 it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys, 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.680 and Otis Blackwell he's trying to think of a song 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:17.440 that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.800 room and he's playing a thing on the piano and 0:17:20.840 --> 0:17:26.199 he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:30.159 Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:34.240 While he's he's telling me the story and accompanying himself 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.800 on the piano, right, And it's like, this is amazing, 0:17:37.880 --> 0:17:40.560 I mean, you know, And then Lieber and Stoller are 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:46.399 playing me songs and I'm like, wow, that is a 0:17:46.640 --> 0:17:50.080 Lieber and Stoller and I'm saying it's great. Do you 0:17:50.119 --> 0:17:54.520 have anymore? And then and finally Jerry Lieber says to me, 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:58.160 and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm 0:17:58.160 --> 0:17:59.879 just you know, one of is like I was in 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:05.400 heaven and Doc Palmas and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:09.080 and Schumann we went on to be friends of mine 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.200 for the rest of their life, as long as they live. 0:18:12.440 --> 0:18:15.439 We were still in contact and friends of mine from 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:22.640 that very early point. So we are recording, I mean, 0:18:22.720 --> 0:18:27.159 I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to 0:18:27.200 --> 0:18:30.040 go up to the record company and we have to 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:35.080 see Morris about some things and everything. I think, great, 0:18:35.200 --> 0:18:40.320 we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all. Right, 0:18:41.480 --> 0:18:45.440 So we go up to this office and it's like 0:18:45.600 --> 0:18:50.240 a scene writer of that Damian Runyon would have written 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:57.320 it is. There are blondes on the telephone with their 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:01.400 hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right. 0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:05.240 And then there's these guys in Mohera's suits with pock 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.000 marks and a bulge in their you know, in their suit, 0:19:09.160 --> 0:19:13.760 like on this one side I'm thinking, Wow, these people 0:19:13.920 --> 0:19:17.600 think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing, 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:22.280 and then maybe it is real. Right. So then the 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:28.920 door opens and Maurice Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:33.320 this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:37.560 happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:41.120 like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way. 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:43.720 How old was mars Levy at this time? Would you say? 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:48.320 I don't know. I would say late thirties. Wow, hew, 0:19:48.359 --> 0:19:52.760 old are you? I'm at fifteen and a half. I'm 0:19:52.800 --> 0:19:58.879 by now, I'm pushing sixteen. Right. So anyway, so we 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.040 go in and Annie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:07.760 doing the camel walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him. 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:13.679 So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:18.520 telling you about that I think has a lot of potential. Right. 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:21.199 So Morris is there and he finally he looks at 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:25.359 me and says, yeah. He said, if you have to 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:28.280 do any time, be good to have him with you. 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.159 And I'm like, what is it. He means, if you 0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:36.760 have to go to prison, he could be your boy. 0:20:37.800 --> 0:20:44.200 And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.879 I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling you. 0:20:49.320 --> 0:20:53.800 So anyway, after this stuff and we and we did 0:20:53.880 --> 0:20:57.600 find some songs that he recorded, and then a few 0:20:57.680 --> 0:21:02.320 months later he calls me and tells me to come 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:08.200 down to Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better 0:21:08.240 --> 0:21:12.520 and better as a guitar player. And he does think. 0:21:13.119 --> 0:21:15.240 I don't know what it is, but this guy's got 0:21:15.480 --> 0:21:19.000 something or another. And then I go on this mission 0:21:19.040 --> 0:21:24.879 to prove because at sixteen years old, I don't have 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:29.639 the experience. I'm not a good enough musician yet. And 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:35.000 I'm from Canada. It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so 0:21:35.119 --> 0:21:38.440 it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:42.760 to climb and that and I went down there and 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.560 I ended up winning that battle. How much did you 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:48.600 practice back then? Do you remember, like to get in 0:21:48.680 --> 0:21:50.920 your mind to get the job. What was it like? 0:21:52.119 --> 0:21:56.440 I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke 0:21:56.520 --> 0:22:01.320 up many mornings in the bed beside was my guitar. 0:22:02.800 --> 0:22:08.280 So I just I just thought, I can't I can't 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:12.640 let this go bybe because just to convince my mother too, 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:17.480 at sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:21.320 to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:26.119 and roll band. You know, She's like, what you know, 0:22:26.840 --> 0:22:31.800 she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:36.080 she could see in my eyes this thing that was 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:39.040 so driven and that it was and I and it 0:22:39.160 --> 0:22:43.919 was like, if I don't try, if I if I 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.080 don't do this, I'm going to be sorry the rest 0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:52.280 of my life. This is the biggest opportunity, you know, 0:22:52.440 --> 0:22:56.840 it couldn't have been in my mind, a bigger, you know, 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.040 bigger thing. So and I went down there, and Ronnie 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:04.400 Hawkins was like, oh, Son, you're too young, You're too good. 0:23:05.080 --> 0:23:06.879 I don't know if this is gonna work out. And 0:23:06.920 --> 0:23:11.960 I was like, you'll see, and I play. I lied 0:23:12.000 --> 0:23:17.880 about my age, you know, for you know, five years. 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.800 Did you did you look older than fifteen or fifteen? 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:27.440 I was sixteen now sixteen. And Ronnie Hawkins actually said 0:23:27.480 --> 0:23:30.560 to me, he would say, Son, can you do something? 0:23:30.560 --> 0:23:34.480 Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:36.480 the time, and I didn't know what to do. And 0:23:36.520 --> 0:23:40.320 I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing. 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.080 And my face was rough from this elness. All it 0:23:44.200 --> 0:23:47.600 did was make me red. It didn't make me grow 0:23:47.640 --> 0:23:51.240 any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while 0:23:52.400 --> 0:23:55.959 where we played, I would stand kind of back a 0:23:55.960 --> 0:23:59.479 little bit in the dark, you know, and because there 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:01.800 would be lights and everything, and I knew just to 0:24:01.800 --> 0:24:03.720 get out of the way of the lights. And then 0:24:03.800 --> 0:24:07.040 between sets that we would play, I would just go 0:24:07.280 --> 0:24:10.879 in the back room and stay there till it was 0:24:10.960 --> 0:24:14.600 time to go on again. Because there was club guys saying, hey, 0:24:14.960 --> 0:24:17.280 I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie. 0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:19.800 And Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about her 0:24:19.880 --> 0:24:22.080 all blah blah blah blah, and he had to do 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.120 all this double talking and things, and he would say, no, no, no, 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:29.240 It's like we call him baby face. He just he 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:32.600 just looks young, you know. He's he's old enough. He's 0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:37.720 just he just looks young. But Levon he joined Ronnie 0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.880 when he was eighteen, after he graduated from high school, 0:24:42.480 --> 0:24:45.760 and he looked very young, and they got away with it. 0:24:46.240 --> 0:24:48.200 So he thought, well, if he could get her away 0:24:48.240 --> 0:24:51.399 with it from him, you know. Uh. And then a 0:24:51.600 --> 0:24:55.280 year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins, all the guys 0:24:55.320 --> 0:24:59.280 from the South except Levon, were were leaving one by one, 0:25:00.000 --> 0:25:04.040 and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. We 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:08.399 hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then Richard 0:25:08.440 --> 0:25:12.800 Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Guards Hudson who 0:25:12.920 --> 0:25:17.879 was from London, Ontario, and they all had their own bands, 0:25:17.960 --> 0:25:22.680 so we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all 0:25:22.720 --> 0:25:25.960 of these bands. I was one of those two and 0:25:26.359 --> 0:25:29.240 that Levan, and I said, we got to get that kid. 0:25:29.760 --> 0:25:34.800 He's you know, he's got potential. We'll be back with 0:25:34.880 --> 0:25:42.200 more from Robbie Robertson after the break. We're back with 0:25:42.400 --> 0:25:46.119 more from Robbie robertson. When in all this did you 0:25:46.160 --> 0:25:50.720 start writing the music that became what we know as 0:25:50.800 --> 0:25:53.560 the band music, Not the actual songs, but when did 0:25:53.600 --> 0:25:58.480 you start hitting on those ideas when the Hawks were 0:25:58.560 --> 0:26:02.360 the personnel the people that went on to become the band. 0:26:03.280 --> 0:26:07.680 At one point, we outgrew the music that we were 0:26:07.720 --> 0:26:13.919 doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and we were experimenting with other 0:26:14.000 --> 0:26:19.280 kinds of songs and other kinds of music and reaching 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:24.359 deeper and getting better and better, and finally it's you know, 0:26:24.400 --> 0:26:28.520 we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:32.200 So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay, 0:26:32.240 --> 0:26:33.960 we're going to go out and we're going to play 0:26:34.000 --> 0:26:36.320 some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get 0:26:36.320 --> 0:26:40.280 a record deal, you know, and become who we are, 0:26:40.800 --> 0:26:46.000 you know. And so I started messing around with writing 0:26:46.040 --> 0:26:50.480 some ideas. Was I was the only one that thought 0:26:50.520 --> 0:26:54.879 about songwriting in the group at that time because I 0:26:54.920 --> 0:26:58.440 had written songs before. It was kind of like, Okay, 0:26:58.520 --> 0:27:00.399 I guess someone's got to do it. I got to 0:27:00.440 --> 0:27:04.720 do it right, And so I started writing some things then. 0:27:05.400 --> 0:27:09.200 And then just as we were getting a record deal 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:15.439 and starting to do something, this fellow named Bob Dylan 0:27:15.600 --> 0:27:19.720 came along and asked if we would help take him 0:27:19.800 --> 0:27:26.080