1 00:00:08,200 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Hey everyone, this is a bit of a special 2 00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:18,240 Speaker 1: episode of Broken Record, not just because it features Rick Rubin, 3 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, and Bruce Headlam all at once, but because 4 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:26,280 Speaker 1: it happened at the spiritual home Shangri La. Of today's guest, 5 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: that's the band's Robbie Robertson, who reminiscence about converting a 6 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,160 Speaker 1: home in Malibu into the now legendary recording studio run 7 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: by Rick, before moving on to discussing the band's early 8 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:41,639 Speaker 1: days as backup for a rockabilly singer when they were 9 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: known as the Hawks, and they also discussed Robbie's longtime 10 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: work with director Martin Scorsese, which earned him an Oscar 11 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: nomination at this year's Academy Awards. We should also note 12 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:57,120 Speaker 1: that if you liked this episode, there's a new documentary 13 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: called Once We're Brothers Robbie Robertson and the Band that 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:07,160 Speaker 1: are Becoming out in theaters on February twenty first, this 15 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: is Broken Record line of notes to the digital Age. 16 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: I'm justin Mitchell. Here's Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell and Bruce 17 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: Head Them from Shango La speaking with the studios architect. 18 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: Robbie Robertson. We had a fantastic day the other day here, 19 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: and when I was telling the stories of Shangri La, 20 00:01:29,440 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 1: you know, the stories, he envisioned this place and built 21 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: it and it was unbelievable and it was mine. You know. 22 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 1: The other guys in the band thought this was a 23 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: good idea. But from Big Pink to Sammy Davis Junior's 24 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: house to the Woos, we made these records in not 25 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: in studios and other places where there was an atmosphere 26 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: that could be our atmosphere here and our sound, you know, 27 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:09,120 Speaker 1: and everything was not on somebody else's way of doing 28 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: if somebody else's wavelength, you know, you would go into 29 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:14,959 Speaker 1: the studio and there'd be these used to be these 30 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: Union guys, and they'd be like, oh, it looks like 31 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 1: it's lunchtime. We're like, what are you talking about lunchtime? 32 00:02:20,600 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: We're we're you know, we're about to do something. And 33 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:27,240 Speaker 1: they'd be and I'd be like, I don't know, this 34 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: should be louder. They don't touch that, you know, So 35 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 1: I don't want that. I don't I don't want to 36 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:36,200 Speaker 1: do that. So I said, what we're going to do 37 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: is we're going to make these clubhouse, these workshop, these 38 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 1: studio things. That is our world and our music, our sound. 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: And whether it was true or not, I believed that 40 00:02:53,080 --> 00:02:56,959 Speaker 1: it gave it a character and a thing, which it 41 00:02:57,000 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: did for better or worse. What's what's interesting about that 42 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: is that now it's become more the norm. Yeah, that said, 43 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,359 Speaker 1: when you did it technologically, it was much more difficult 44 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:11,280 Speaker 1: to do. Like, when you did it you needed big 45 00:03:11,320 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 1: studio equipment. Like today people can do it on their laptop, 46 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: so they could it's easier to make that jump. But 47 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: when you did it, the infrastructure involved was not easy 48 00:03:21,240 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: to pull off. It was unheard of except for Les 49 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:31,359 Speaker 1: Paul Less. Paul said, I'm going to build a studio 50 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: at my house, and I'm gonna build an echo chamber 51 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 1: into the side of this hill, right, and he was 52 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: going to do all of these things. I had an 53 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: argument the other day with Van Morrison about being able 54 00:03:46,720 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: to do this kind of thing, and because he was saying, 55 00:03:51,000 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: I only like to play live just with my band 56 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 1: and I go in and we sing and they play 57 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: this song and we capture a moment. All done that. 58 00:04:00,720 --> 00:04:03,720 Speaker 1: I know it really well. I played ricks some music 59 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: the other day that was all like first or second takes, 60 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: and it was you know songs you've heard, Yeah, songs 61 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: you've heard a lot. So anyway, Savannah is saying, it's 62 00:04:15,440 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: gotta be live and it's gotta be bubbla va and 63 00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: that's the way it used to be and it's a 64 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 1: way to dab by. And I said, what about Les Paul. 65 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 1: He overdubbed, he made things, he played on top of himself, 66 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 1: he double tracked things, He invented it. So Silvan says, 67 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,920 Speaker 1: I know, but he was magic. Wait made you did 68 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:42,760 Speaker 1: you recorded at Sammy Davis Junior's house. Yes, we made 69 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: the band album, the Brown Album. Uh. And we rented 70 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: Sammy Davis Junior's house in the Hollywood it's up Sunset 71 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:57,719 Speaker 1: Plaza in the Hollywood Hills, and we all stayed in 72 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: the house for the family. And we turned the woolhouse 73 00:05:01,160 --> 00:05:05,080 Speaker 1: where he used to have his parties with Frank Sinatra 74 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 1: in the rat back and all these people. We turned 75 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: that poolhouse into a studio. And the record company thought 76 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: this was the worst idea they ever heard. They thought 77 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: this was ridiculous. He said, drive fifteen minutes. We have 78 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 1: the best studio in the world here. Frank's not for 79 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:30,560 Speaker 1: records here right, all of this stuff, and I was like, no, no, no, 80 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:36,040 Speaker 1: this is a different thing. And finally they were like, okay, okay, 81 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: I guess I don't know what you're doing and it's 82 00:05:38,800 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: probably going to be bad. But didn't chump up. Sammy 83 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Davis Junior. He owned, he still owned the house. He 84 00:05:47,080 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: didn't live there, so was imagining him like he lived 85 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: there stepping but everything in the house was built lower. 86 00:05:58,880 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: You go into the the bathroom and the sink was 87 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: down here, and it was everything was built to his specifications, 88 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: you know. And and it seemed like this is great, 89 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:17,039 Speaker 1: This is great Sammy's world, you know. And so we 90 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: recorded the album there and then we mix it, or 91 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:24,520 Speaker 1: we're going to mix the record, and there's this guy 92 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: in New York, Tony May was his name, and he 93 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: had mixed the Eisley Brothers. It's your thing, do what 94 00:06:32,560 --> 00:06:34,839 Speaker 1: you want to do. So it was such a great 95 00:06:34,880 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: sounding record, we said, wow, let's see if we can 96 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: get Tony May to mix this. And he worked with 97 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: Phil Ramone and all these people there. So anyway, he 98 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 1: comes in and he puts up the tapes and everything 99 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,039 Speaker 1: and he says, these tapes are awful. I'm gonna have 100 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: to do a lot of work on this, and I thought, hmmm, 101 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:00,760 Speaker 1: I don't know if I like that, you know. So anyway, 102 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:03,640 Speaker 1: he did a mix there was not what I wanted 103 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:05,640 Speaker 1: at all. It's not the way I heard it at all. 104 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 1: So anyway, we're like, thanks tony Ce, you know, and 105 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: which song on which songs? These? These were on the 106 00:07:14,920 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: band album? It was the night they drove Old Dixie 107 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:24,400 Speaker 1: down up on Crippled Creek, uh, you know, Whispering Pines. 108 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 1: His mixes were trying to make this slick and bright 109 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 1: and and there was a woodiness to it. There was 110 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,760 Speaker 1: a muddiness to it that that suited the music. It 111 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: was earthy and I wanted that right. But he didn't 112 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,040 Speaker 1: get the jokes. So that was okay. So I went 113 00:07:49,200 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: and mixed the album with a guy, another guy at 114 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: the at the old Jerry Raga Voice Hid Factory in 115 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: New York. This guy mixed the album. We mixed that, 116 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: the guys in the band, we were all in there 117 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: moving the faders and got it the way that I wanted. 118 00:08:07,720 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: So we get it and then it's like, okay. The guy, 119 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: the mastering guy, his name is Bob Ludwick, you gotta 120 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: get him to master your record. So we take the 121 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: record to Bob Ludwick and he puts it, you know, 122 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 1: he puts on the tape of the mixes and everything, 123 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: and he says, oh boy, He's like Tony May. He's like, 124 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. I'm gonna try. I'll see if I 125 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: can fix this or save this. And I'm like, hmm, 126 00:08:40,840 --> 00:08:44,200 Speaker 1: that's really depressing. So I go and I tell the 127 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: other guys. I said, I don't know, we might have 128 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:51,720 Speaker 1: done this all wrong. Everybody's saying it's it's terrible and that, 129 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: you know, so the net I don't know. A couple 130 00:08:55,640 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 1: of days later, Bob Ludwick calls me and he says, 131 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: I am such an idiot. I am such a fool. 132 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: I didn't get it. I so get it. This is 133 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: maybe the most interesting record I've ever heard. He said, 134 00:09:17,040 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: I am so sorry. And he told me, Bob Ludwig, 135 00:09:21,240 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: he said, I made the same mistake when sly Stone 136 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:31,200 Speaker 1: brought me there's a riot going on. I thought that 137 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,960 Speaker 1: that was a big mistake too, And he said, and 138 00:09:35,000 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 1: then I've realized it. You know, I had to accept 139 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,240 Speaker 1: it the way that I accepted your record, And so 140 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 1: I was like, because I thought he was right, you know, 141 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:50,560 Speaker 1: and if he had a state with that, I don't 142 00:09:50,559 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: know what would have happened. So he, you know, he 143 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 1: mastered and it hardly did anything to it in the mastering, 144 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:01,960 Speaker 1: and it was just one of those things. It was 145 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: a homemade thing. It did have that character to it, 146 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: and that was part of its specialness. He came very 147 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 1: close to ruining two of the great masterpieces. Yeah, well, 148 00:10:17,640 --> 00:10:19,959 Speaker 1: I do remember actually the first songs he wrote, I 149 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: goes for Ronnie Hawkins. What were they like? Well? What 150 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: were they? Well? One of the reasons he hired me. 151 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: I wrote a couple of songs for him when I 152 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,960 Speaker 1: was fifteen years old because I heard him say that 153 00:10:33,640 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 1: I need some songs, and I was trying to figure 154 00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: out how I could crash into this world of Southern 155 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 1: rock and roll. That's the real thing. These guys are 156 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: from the holy land in the South where this music 157 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: grows out of the ground. So I've got this whole 158 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: fantasy in my mind and everything, and these guys can 159 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: do it. And they were all from this house, and 160 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 1: they sounded that way and all of it. It's just okay. 161 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 1: And I'm up in Canada, so you know what I mean. 162 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 1: It feels like such a distance and I'm trying to 163 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: figure out a way how can I become a part 164 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: of this How can I get into this club and 165 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: they'll accept me. So I hear him say I need 166 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 1: some So I go off and I write a couple 167 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 1: of songs. Where are you when you write these songs 168 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:32,920 Speaker 1: in Toronto? I'm in Cabbage Town. You're in high school? Yeah, 169 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 1: I was fifteen. Did you know anything about writing songs? Well, yeah, 170 00:11:37,880 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 1: I'd written some songs already and this was just something 171 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: you just kind of boosted your game up. You know. 172 00:11:45,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: As we go along, certain things happen and it makes 173 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: you think, Okay, now I got to take on this 174 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: challenge and if I can, if I can win that war, whoa, 175 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: I'll now be this will be my starting place instead 176 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: of yours. What did you hear Ronnie Hawkins say he 177 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: needed some new songs? Well? We I had a band 178 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:09,760 Speaker 1: called Robbie and the Robots and we were an opening, 179 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,600 Speaker 1: you know, act for Ronnie Hawkins and the Hawks on 180 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: a weekend in a dance out in the West End 181 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:22,080 Speaker 1: of Toronto at an arena. So we went on and 182 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 1: played for Ronnie Hawkins and Ronnie and the other guys. 183 00:12:27,840 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: They thought, Wow, these kids are not bad, you know, 184 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,960 Speaker 1: they're not too bad, and that was all I needed 185 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:37,760 Speaker 1: to hear. So I was just trying to get some 186 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: of it. So I was hanging around, and then they 187 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: went on and killed it. I had never heard anything 188 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 1: like that before, that far, that up close, you know, 189 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: I just heard other bands the designed from Toronto, right 190 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 1: and or whatever. This was something and you had to 191 00:12:56,960 --> 00:13:00,320 Speaker 1: get into clubs to really hear these people play. But 192 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 1: they were doing a thing on a weekend. So I 193 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:08,000 Speaker 1: see them play, and I'm like, this is unbelievable. A 194 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: real rockabilly band, right, like Carl Perkins and you know 195 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: Elvis and you know Roy Orbison, like you right out 196 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: of that school. So I think, and the energy and 197 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: the excitement in the music, and Ronnie was an amazing 198 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:28,400 Speaker 1: showman it and he always wanted to have killer musicians 199 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 1: and they were great. So after they played, I was 200 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: just hanging around, trying to get some of it to 201 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: rub off on me, you know, some of that musicality. 202 00:13:39,800 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: And so I was trying to be helpful and hanging 203 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:48,080 Speaker 1: around and then I you know, and and they ended 204 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 1: up liking me, and they said, uh, all right, you 205 00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 1: know at the hotel, why don't you come by? And 206 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: I would just try to try to make myself useful, 207 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 1: you know, and somebody needed a new string put on 208 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: the guitar or whatever anything, you know. So I I 209 00:14:07,920 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: was hanging around, and I was hanging around as much 210 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: as I could without getting in the way. And one 211 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: day I hear Ronnie Hawkins say I got to make 212 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:20,760 Speaker 1: a new record and I need some new songs, you know. 213 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 1: So I went home and I wrote two songs and 214 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: brought him back to him, said I wrote a couple 215 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: of songs. I don't know if they're you know what 216 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 1: you're looking for. So we played him played the new songs, 217 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: and he said, damn son, I'm going to record both 218 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: of those. They weren't any good, you know. I was 219 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: just trying to get in the door. So so I 220 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: wrote this song called someone Like You. I think didn't 221 00:14:54,040 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: Adele steal that title from me? So anyway, so he 222 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 1: records the songs, he records the album, comes back to Toronto. 223 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: They're playing at a club, the Leacock Door in Toronto. 224 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: Brings me the album with the songs on it, and 225 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, cutting my finger trying to get this album 226 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: opened to look and see it on the song credits 227 00:15:20,240 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: that everything, there's the two songs, and there's my name, 228 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: but it's my name and somebody else's name. And I said, 229 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: who's Levy? I did there was no Levy there when 230 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: I wrote these songs. It was Morris Levy, who owned 231 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: the record company Roulette Records that Ronnie was on. So 232 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: I'm like, this guy, how can he just put his 233 00:15:53,120 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 1: name on there? So Ronnie's kind of saying son in 234 00:15:57,080 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: this business some you know. He was just giving the 235 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: old shit happens kind of story, and I'm like, this 236 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: is just wrong though he wasn't And I'm telling him, Ronnie, 237 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: he wasn't even there when I wrote them. I'm a kid, 238 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,440 Speaker 1: what do I know? And Ronnie's like, listen, it's on 239 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 1: these guys, these guys up there in New York, and 240 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: you don't want to mess around with them. They're the 241 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: kind of people you know that you know you're get 242 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: in their way, you know, and they find you in 243 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: the river. Then he's giving you this whole story. I'm like, 244 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: in the river, he wasn't even there. So anyway, sometime 245 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: later Ronnie says to me, if you can write songs, 246 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: I can, maybe you'd be good at hearing what I 247 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: was good. I'm going to take you to New York 248 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and I'm going to take you to the Brill Building 249 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: and we're gonna meet all the songwriters and you're gonna 250 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,400 Speaker 1: listen to their songs and see if there's something that 251 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 1: would be good for me to record. Right, So, anyway 252 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: we go and I meet Doc Thomas and Mark Schumann, 253 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: I meet Lidburne Stroll, I meet Otis Blackwell's in my book, Rick. 254 00:17:03,920 --> 00:17:07,400 Speaker 1: When you read that and you hear this whole story, 255 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: it's amazing. Otis Blackwell and Titus Turner, all of these guys, 256 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: and Otis Blackwell he's trying to think of a song 257 00:17:15,720 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: that might be good for wrong. I'm in his little 258 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: room and he's playing a thing on the piano and 259 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: he's accompanying himself telling me how Colonel Tom Parker and 260 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:30,159 Speaker 1: Elvis fucked him on the song he wrote, Don't Be Cruel. 261 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:34,240 Speaker 1: While he's he's telling me the story and accompanying himself 262 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: on the piano, right, And it's like, this is amazing, 263 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, And then Lieber and Stoller are 264 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: playing me songs and I'm like, wow, that is a 265 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 1: Lieber and Stoller and I'm saying it's great. Do you 266 00:17:50,119 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 1: have anymore? And then and finally Jerry Lieber says to me, 267 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 1: and who are you again? And I said, oh, I'm 268 00:17:58,160 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: just you know, one of is like I was in 269 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: heaven and Doc Palmas and Lieber and Stoller and Thomas 270 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 1: and Schumann we went on to be friends of mine 271 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,200 Speaker 1: for the rest of their life, as long as they live. 272 00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:15,439 Speaker 1: We were still in contact and friends of mine from 273 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 1: that very early point. So we are recording, I mean, 274 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,159 Speaker 1: I'm listening to songs. Ronnie says, well, we have to 275 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,040 Speaker 1: go up to the record company and we have to 276 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: see Morris about some things and everything. I think, great, 277 00:18:35,200 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 1: we'll get this songwriting thing straightened out once and for all. Right, 278 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: So we go up to this office and it's like 279 00:18:45,600 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 1: a scene writer of that Damian Runyon would have written 280 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 1: it is. There are blondes on the telephone with their 281 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: hair perfectly over one eye, right out of a movie, right. 282 00:19:01,800 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 1: And then there's these guys in Mohera's suits with pock 283 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 1: marks and a bulge in their you know, in their suit, 284 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: like on this one side I'm thinking, Wow, these people 285 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: think it's real, you know, they're living in this thing, 286 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: and then maybe it is real. Right. So then the 287 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: door opens and Maurice Levy says, Ronnie, Ronnie, I love 288 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: this guy, Ronnie, come on in. And I think what 289 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: happens to gangsters when they're young that their voice goes 290 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,120 Speaker 1: like that. All these gangsters seem to talk this way. 291 00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,720 Speaker 1: How old was mars Levy at this time? Would you say? 292 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:48,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I would say late thirties. Wow, hew, 293 00:19:48,359 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 1: old are you? I'm at fifteen and a half. I'm 294 00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:58,879 Speaker 1: by now, I'm pushing sixteen. Right. So anyway, so we 295 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: go in and Annie Hawkins is doing his thing. He's 296 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: doing the camel walk and stuff, and Morris just loves him. 297 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 1: So he says, Morris, this is this kid I was 298 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:18,520 Speaker 1: telling you about that I think has a lot of potential. Right. 299 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: So Morris is there and he finally he looks at 300 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: me and says, yeah. He said, if you have to 301 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: do any time, be good to have him with you. 302 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,159 Speaker 1: And I'm like, what is it. He means, if you 303 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: have to go to prison, he could be your boy. 304 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I'm going to forego this songwriting problem completely. 305 00:20:44,880 --> 00:20:48,879 Speaker 1: I can't believe that's the joke that he's telling you. 306 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: So anyway, after this stuff and we and we did 307 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: find some songs that he recorded, and then a few 308 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: months later he calls me and tells me to come 309 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: down to Arkansas to try out because I'm getting better 310 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: and better as a guitar player. And he does think. 311 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is, but this guy's got 312 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: something or another. And then I go on this mission 313 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: to prove because at sixteen years old, I don't have 314 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: the experience. I'm not a good enough musician yet. And 315 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 1: I'm from Canada. It's no Canadians and rockabilly bands, so 316 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: it was unheard of. So I had a big mountain 317 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: to climb and that and I went down there and 318 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: I ended up winning that battle. How much did you 319 00:21:46,560 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: practice back then? Do you remember, like to get in 320 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:50,920 Speaker 1: your mind to get the job. What was it like? 321 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: I practiced till my fingers were bleeding, and I woke 322 00:21:56,520 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: up many mornings in the bed beside was my guitar. 323 00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: So I just I just thought, I can't I can't 324 00:22:08,359 --> 00:22:12,640 Speaker 1: let this go bybe because just to convince my mother too, 325 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:17,480 Speaker 1: at sixteen years old, I'm leaving school and I'm going 326 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: to the Mississippi Delta to join up with a rock 327 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: and roll band. You know, She's like, what you know, 328 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:31,800 Speaker 1: she doesn't even understand what this could possibly mean, except 329 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:36,080 Speaker 1: she could see in my eyes this thing that was 330 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: so driven and that it was and I and it 331 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,919 Speaker 1: was like, if I don't try, if I if I 332 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: don't do this, I'm going to be sorry the rest 333 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: of my life. This is the biggest opportunity, you know, 334 00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: it couldn't have been in my mind, a bigger, you know, 335 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: bigger thing. So and I went down there, and Ronnie 336 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: Hawkins was like, oh, Son, you're too young, You're too good. 337 00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is gonna work out. And 338 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,960 Speaker 1: I was like, you'll see, and I play. I lied 339 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,880 Speaker 1: about my age, you know, for you know, five years. 340 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: Did you did you look older than fifteen or fifteen? 341 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 1: I was sixteen now sixteen. And Ronnie Hawkins actually said 342 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: to me, he would say, Son, can you do something? 343 00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,480 Speaker 1: Can you shave? Can you I didn't even shave at 344 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: the time, and I didn't know what to do. And 345 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: I got an electric razor and I started shaving nothing. 346 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 1: And my face was rough from this elness. All it 347 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: did was make me red. It didn't make me grow 348 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 1: any whiskers or nothing. And so for the first while 349 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,959 Speaker 1: where we played, I would stand kind of back a 350 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,479 Speaker 1: little bit in the dark, you know, and because there 351 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,800 Speaker 1: would be lights and everything, and I knew just to 352 00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: get out of the way of the lights. And then 353 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: between sets that we would play, I would just go 354 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,879 Speaker 1: in the back room and stay there till it was 355 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: time to go on again. Because there was club guys saying, hey, 356 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 1: I don't want you to get me shut down to Ronnie. 357 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,800 Speaker 1: And Ronnie was like, no, no, don't worry about her 358 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: all blah blah blah blah, and he had to do 359 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 1: all this double talking and things, and he would say, no, no, no, 360 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,240 Speaker 1: It's like we call him baby face. He just he 361 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 1: just looks young, you know. He's he's old enough. He's 362 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,720 Speaker 1: just he just looks young. But Levon he joined Ronnie 363 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,880 Speaker 1: when he was eighteen, after he graduated from high school, 364 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: and he looked very young, and they got away with it. 365 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: So he thought, well, if he could get her away 366 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 1: with it from him, you know. Uh. And then a 367 00:24:51,600 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: year after I was with Ronnie Hawkins, all the guys 368 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 1: from the South except Levon, were were leaving one by one, 369 00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:04,040 Speaker 1: and then one by one we were hiring Canadians. We 370 00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: hired Rick Danko who was from Simcoe, Ontario, then Richard 371 00:25:08,440 --> 00:25:12,800 Speaker 1: Manuel who was from Stratford, Ontario, then Guards Hudson who 372 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: was from London, Ontario, and they all had their own bands, 373 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 1: so we were, you know, stealing the leaders of all 374 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: of these bands. I was one of those two and 375 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:29,240 Speaker 1: that Levan, and I said, we got to get that kid. 376 00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: He's you know, he's got potential. We'll be back with 377 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: more from Robbie Robertson after the break. We're back with 378 00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 1: more from Robbie robertson. When in all this did you 379 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 1: start writing the music that became what we know as 380 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 1: the band music, Not the actual songs, but when did 381 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: you start hitting on those ideas when the Hawks were 382 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:02,360 Speaker 1: the personnel the people that went on to become the band. 383 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:07,680 Speaker 1: At one point, we outgrew the music that we were 384 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:13,919 Speaker 1: doing with Ronnie Hawkins, and we were experimenting with other 385 00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:19,280 Speaker 1: kinds of songs and other kinds of music and reaching 386 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 1: deeper and getting better and better, and finally it's you know, 387 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 1: we couldn't stay in that place, so we left Ronnie Hawkins. 388 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: So when we left Ronnie Hawkins, the idea was, Okay, 389 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: we're going to go out and we're going to play 390 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: some gigs and everything, and then we're going to get 391 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:40,280 Speaker 1: a record deal, you know, and become who we are, 392 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: you know. And so I started messing around with writing 393 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,480 Speaker 1: some ideas. Was I was the only one that thought 394 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,879 Speaker 1: about songwriting in the group at that time because I 395 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 1: had written songs before. It was kind of like, Okay, 396 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: I guess someone's got to do it. I got to 397 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: do it right, And so I started writing some things then. 398 00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:09,200 Speaker 1: And then just as we were getting a record deal 399 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: and starting to do something, this fellow named Bob Dylan 400 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 1: came along and asked if we would help take him 401 00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: electric and be his band on a world tour. So 402 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 1: that kind of, you know, it just put everything on 403 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: hold a little bit. But it was like a phenomenal 404 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 1: experience what this guy was doing at the time. This 405 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: is just when he was going from being the you know, 406 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: the man in folk songwriting to wanting to do something 407 00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:55,919 Speaker 1: else and wanting to play make music with other musicians 408 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: and not just him in a guitar and harmonica. And 409 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: that was really interesting to me. He was really interesting 410 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: to me. I loved this idea. Some of the other 411 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: guys were like, hmm, I'm not sure about this. You know, 412 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: we were on from the other side of the tracks. 413 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:24,880 Speaker 1: We weren't from the folk music world at all. So anyway, 414 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:29,240 Speaker 1: it was like an interesting experiment and terror playing with 415 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,879 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. And we toured with him all over North America, 416 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 1: all over Australia, all over Europe, and people booed and 417 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: through stuff at us every night, just about everywhere we played, 418 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: and you couldn't help but think, well, who else has 419 00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: been through this? Who else knows how this feels. There 420 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 1: wasn't anybody on that list. I didn't know that this 421 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,480 Speaker 1: had ever happened before. And I'm sure, but not with 422 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: somebody who's on the crest of changing music forever and 423 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:12,960 Speaker 1: writing songs like nobody's ever written before, and all of 424 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: this stuff that every night we get booed and we 425 00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: get through this whole thing alive. So after we got 426 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: through it alive, then it was really time for me 427 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: to start thinking about writing songs, because it was like, 428 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 1: we've done the experiment with Bob Dylan. Now we got 429 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 1: to get back to doing our own thing. And that's 430 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: when we were doing the basement tapes at Big Pink, 431 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 1: and it's where, you know, when I started writing and 432 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,520 Speaker 1: thinking about who are we, what do we sound like? 433 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,080 Speaker 1: What are these stories? You know, you said that Bob 434 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: Dylan was interesting to you. Why were you interesting to 435 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: Bob Dylan? Probably because we were a real band, a 436 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: real band that played. We weren't some studio musicians that 437 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: you could hire. We were a band that knew how 438 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: to play with one another and had a language already 439 00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: that we spoke with one another. And so this unit 440 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: coming in that had a sound that had a thing 441 00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: amongst them, you know, it was like something ready made. 442 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 1: In the beginning, when I first met with him, he 443 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: was trying to hire me away from the group to 444 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: play guitar with him and some other musicians, and so 445 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 1: I had to say, no, no, I'm with a group. 446 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 1: Were a brotherhood. So he was fine with that, did 447 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: he know he wasn't fine in the beginning, And he 448 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,120 Speaker 1: was like, no, no, I got some other guys and 449 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 1: you know that a really good and everything. And I 450 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 1: was like, then I can't do it, you know, And 451 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: so so he came around. Was there a tryout or 452 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: he just said, let's do this, you know what the 453 00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: tryout was. So I played two jobs with him and 454 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 1: I said, I can only do it if lev On 455 00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: is there too, and so yeah, he said to me, 456 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,600 Speaker 1: he's a drummer. He said, is he as good? There 457 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,360 Speaker 1: was this big studio drummer at the time, Bobby Greg 458 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 1: was his name, and he said, is he as good 459 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,280 Speaker 1: as Bobby Greg? I said, oh, he's better than Bobby Greg, 460 00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: you know, And he said, oh, okay. So anyway, we 461 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: leve On and I played with him and some other 462 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:55,760 Speaker 1: musicians for just at two jobs we said we would do. 463 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: And it was at Forest Hills in New York and 464 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:04,080 Speaker 1: the Hollywood Bowl and they and they booed, you know, 465 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 1: it was like whoa, what's that about? And charge the 466 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: stage and I hated it. What was your reaction to that? 467 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,800 Speaker 1: We just played louder and they hated it more, and 468 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 1: I thought, if Bob can handle this, we can handle this, 469 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 1: you know, And so we just kept going and going 470 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: and it was hurtful. And then there was a point 471 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:41,160 Speaker 1: in this tour because sometimes they would tape the shows, 472 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 1: you know, on reel to reel. They would tape it 473 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,440 Speaker 1: and see how the sound man would see how it 474 00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: was sounding, because it was like, maybe it's a sound 475 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 1: man for all the fault. So there was a point 476 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 1: in the tour where we have one of these tapes 477 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 1: and to the show. We're sitting in the hotel room 478 00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: listening to this tape and I said to the other 479 00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:16,240 Speaker 1: guys and Bob, they're wrong, they're wrong. This is good, 480 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,400 Speaker 1: this is really good, and the world is wrong and 481 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: we're right. And it wasn't because I was sure of that. 482 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: It was because if you didn't say that, it would 483 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:35,560 Speaker 1: be like, this is we're in a terrible situation. And 484 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: it just gave you the feistiness or the strength to 485 00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 1: say we're doing something here, and if you don't get it, 486 00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:49,600 Speaker 1: it's your fault. You had to take that attitude. And 487 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: we played all over the world and ended up with 488 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: people booing as loud as ever. And we're playing at 489 00:33:58,880 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: Albert Hall and and the Beatles are there, and the 490 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 1: Stones are there, and the Who are there, and everybody's there, 491 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:12,960 Speaker 1: and the audience is booing us and they're all watching this, 492 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 1: and that is that's really awkward. When there's people musicians 493 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:25,160 Speaker 1: that you want to impress and everybody's booing you you think, 494 00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: how do you possibly think we're any good when everybody's 495 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:35,479 Speaker 1: booing us. Those guys like it, the Beatles. The Beatles said, 496 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: don't pay any attention to that. They're wrong. This was 497 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: really good, so I was kind of like see. But 498 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: Levon didn't like it though. He didn't like that. Nobody 499 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: likes being booed and people throwing stuff at you. Uh 500 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm I'm quite convinced of that. But 501 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 1: lee Von didn't like the music. He didn't like Bob 502 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: Dylan's music. He didn't like any of this and didn't 503 00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:12,280 Speaker 1: want to be playing with him at all. Levon left. 504 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 1: Then when we all moved to Woodstock and we had 505 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:19,120 Speaker 1: Big Pink, we called Levon and said, okay, you gotta 506 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: it's time to come back. And he came back, and 507 00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,920 Speaker 1: Bob was like a different guy. He looked completely different, 508 00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:29,239 Speaker 1: and he was writing songs and he was you know, 509 00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:33,720 Speaker 1: it was just great. And Levin came back and loved 510 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,400 Speaker 1: it all, loved being you know, back with his brothers 511 00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:43,239 Speaker 1: and loved Bob and came around on the music. He 512 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 1: understood something, he had time to understand it. Plus the 513 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: songs that I was starting to write. He was like, Oh, 514 00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:57,200 Speaker 1: that's who we are, you know. So the pieces were 515 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: coming together and he came back to the fold bigger 516 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,799 Speaker 1: and stronger than ever. When did you know you had 517 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: or was there a particular song that when you finished 518 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: you said, Okay, this is our sound. I think I'm 519 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: getting it. Was there one moment or one song that 520 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: kind of gave you the idea for what the band 521 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:24,080 Speaker 1: could be. No, I didn't know. We were just experimenting 522 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:30,320 Speaker 1: and in a discovery process. I didn't know it until 523 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:36,360 Speaker 1: we were recording it. And I was playing something for 524 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:44,400 Speaker 1: Rick the other day that we recorded something and it 525 00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:47,400 Speaker 1: was breaking all kinds of rules and the way you 526 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: record and what you do and what you're not supposed 527 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: to do and everything, and we were trying this and 528 00:36:56,040 --> 00:37:00,160 Speaker 1: it was it was discouraging what they were telling us 529 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 1: going into it, but we were doing what we knew 530 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,680 Speaker 1: how to do. And we recorded it and then we 531 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: went in and heard it and I said, that's it. 532 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: That's what who we are, that's what we sound like. 533 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:22,640 Speaker 1: And it was unlike anybody else or anything. And still 534 00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:25,160 Speaker 1: at the time, you think, and that's either a good 535 00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 1: thing or a bad thing. That song was what well, 536 00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 1: there was two songs that I played for him. One 537 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,240 Speaker 1: song was called Tears of Rage, which was the first 538 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 1: song that we recorded on the album, and it's the 539 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 1: first song on the album. And then we recorded a 540 00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:49,120 Speaker 1: song called The Wait. And then when we recorded these songs, 541 00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: it was like, Okay, can you tell me a little 542 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 1: bit about writing the Weight, because it's just such an 543 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:59,439 Speaker 1: unusual song, like how it came to you or well, 544 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:03,439 Speaker 1: I was this was a song, This was a spare song. 545 00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: This was a song that I had that if something 546 00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: else didn't work out, we could use it. So we 547 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: had to put it together mostly right there in the studio. 548 00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: I had played it for the guys before and everybody thought, yeah, cool, 549 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: you know, but nobody was like, whoa, that's it, that's 550 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: a you know, none of us knew. And then when 551 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: I was writing this song, I was drawing on these 552 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:43,040 Speaker 1: influences from when I was sixteen years old and went 553 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:47,839 Speaker 1: from Canada down to the Mississippi Delta. Some of those characters, 554 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:52,359 Speaker 1: some of those images were you know, I had now 555 00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: pulled them out of my trunk of imagination and I 556 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 1: was incorporating them into a musicality and in the stories. 557 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:06,440 Speaker 1: And I was also very much, which I've you know, 558 00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: I've said this before that I was very much into 559 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:16,520 Speaker 1: Lewis boon Well's films and there was there was something, 560 00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 1: there was something in his a thematic thread in some 561 00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,080 Speaker 1: of his movies that I couldn't get over. And it 562 00:39:27,200 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: was really about people trying to be good, really trying 563 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: to do the right thing, and then something comes along 564 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,759 Speaker 1: and something turns it upside down on its head, right. 565 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: And so this was a story about a guy who 566 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:51,520 Speaker 1: comes into this town. It's called Nazareth, and it's because 567 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:55,480 Speaker 1: that's where the guitar company is from. So I look 568 00:39:55,520 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 1: in my guitar and it says Nazareth, Pennsylvania. Right. So 569 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,120 Speaker 1: I look in there and I say, I pulled into Nazareth, right. 570 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,719 Speaker 1: And I start writing this story, and it's about a 571 00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:14,040 Speaker 1: guy who goes somewhere and everybody that he runs into 572 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: it's like he's just trying to be of goodwill. He's 573 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,680 Speaker 1: just trying to do the right thing. And it turns 574 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: into it's like the old saying, it depends on who 575 00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: you run into and storytelling. You're going along, you think 576 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: you've got an idea, but it depends on who you 577 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 1: run into, right, And so I'm thinking of all of 578 00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:45,759 Speaker 1: these characters, and some of them are based on characters 579 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: that I imagined or I met when I went down 580 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: to the Mississippi Delta, and I'm thinking, what would be 581 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: really cool for leave On. I knew his instrument really well, 582 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:04,800 Speaker 1: of his voice and everything, and um, and I thought 583 00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:12,320 Speaker 1: I thought I was doing a Lewis Boonwell thing. I wasn't, 584 00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,600 Speaker 1: but I thought I was right, and I thought I 585 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,479 Speaker 1: was and I when I wrote the song, I thought, ah, 586 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,359 Speaker 1: there's I never heard that song before. Maybe that's good, 587 00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 1: you know, but it was unfamiliar. And so with that, 588 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,040 Speaker 1: you think, geez, I don't know, is that is that 589 00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:37,320 Speaker 1: good or bad? Is that different or just obscure, you know, 590 00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:42,360 Speaker 1: like record producers have to consider when they're making music. 591 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,800 Speaker 1: And so when I taught the song to the guys, 592 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: and everybody was kind of enjoying. They knew where I 593 00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: was coming from in some of these things. The other 594 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:00,920 Speaker 1: guys didn't care about Lewis boo Well or anything, but 595 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: I did. And so anyway, they they took the ride 596 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: on it, and as we were getting into it, we 597 00:42:08,239 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: were kind of smiling to one another, like that verse 598 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,520 Speaker 1: that Carmen and the devil verse. You know, that's pretty cool, 599 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: and then all this thing and ah, and then it 600 00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:22,720 Speaker 1: has like a conclusion that ties it together or something 601 00:42:22,840 --> 00:42:25,960 Speaker 1: like a movie would all of these things. I've just 602 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:30,800 Speaker 1: been a movie bug, you know, so long. So anyway, 603 00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:36,000 Speaker 1: I was making a little movie. And then we record 604 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:41,200 Speaker 1: the song and I have no idea except we got 605 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: through the whole song, didn't make a mistake, felt pretty good. 606 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:47,879 Speaker 1: We went in and listened to it and I thought, 607 00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: holy moly, that's a thing. That's a thing right there, 608 00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:58,960 Speaker 1: that's a sound that's I haven't heard that before, you know, 609 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 1: And all of those things then add up for you inside. 610 00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: You know, can you put your finger on what was 611 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,040 Speaker 1: so unique about that sound? Or is it just a 612 00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 1: kind of gestalt thing that No, And that's part of 613 00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:19,800 Speaker 1: the great holy mystery that you really don't know. And 614 00:43:19,960 --> 00:43:22,840 Speaker 1: if you think you do, then you're not ready for 615 00:43:22,960 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 1: a good surprise, you know, going in and I say, Garth, 616 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,480 Speaker 1: why don't you play piano on this? And Richard you 617 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:32,759 Speaker 1: play Oregon? And then when we get to this part 618 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,960 Speaker 1: in this song, why don't we do this? And wait? 619 00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:38,279 Speaker 1: And then you come in, and then you come in, 620 00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,640 Speaker 1: and then you come in together and then you know, 621 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: and then that folds over on top of itself. And 622 00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: all of these ideas I had no idea whether if 623 00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:52,959 Speaker 1: they were good ideas. I thought that, you know, it's 624 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,560 Speaker 1: enough to make you want to do something. Then we 625 00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: got the song and I say, you know what, on 626 00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: this second last verse, Rick, why don't you take over 627 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,800 Speaker 1: the lead vocal on that? It just seemed like a 628 00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:11,240 Speaker 1: good idea at the time, And once again, it wasn't 629 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: until we went in that control room heard it over 630 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: those speakers that Garth playing the piano on that really 631 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:27,719 Speaker 1: made sense. That Levan's drums with these big tune down 632 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:31,080 Speaker 1: Tom's that I had asked him if he'd be okay 633 00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,440 Speaker 1: doing and his vocal. I wasn't even sure this is 634 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,480 Speaker 1: the key I wrote it in. I don't know if 635 00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:40,120 Speaker 1: it's a good key for you to sing it in. 636 00:44:40,920 --> 00:44:43,360 Speaker 1: And he's like, yeah, no, I think it's okay. So 637 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,200 Speaker 1: all of these things are way up in the air 638 00:44:47,239 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: and no idea really, and then when you hear it 639 00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,759 Speaker 1: all come together and those pieces of the puzzle actually fit, 640 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:03,400 Speaker 1: that's when you say, yeah, I knew along. We'll be 641 00:45:03,520 --> 00:45:10,919 Speaker 1: back with more from Robbie Robertson. After the break, we're 642 00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,960 Speaker 1: back with more of our conversation with Robbie Robertson. The 643 00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:18,360 Speaker 1: band eventually broke up with one final concert in nineteen 644 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:22,719 Speaker 1: seventy six. It was filmed by Martin Scorsese and released 645 00:45:22,880 --> 00:45:27,040 Speaker 1: as The Last Waltz. It's become legendary and kicked off 646 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: a decades long working relationship between Robbie and Scorsese, starting 647 00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,719 Speaker 1: with Raging Bull. Robbie's done the music for most of 648 00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:40,880 Speaker 1: Scorsese's films, including his most recent The Irishman. Not too 649 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,080 Speaker 1: long ago, Rick discovered a piece of music that he loved, 650 00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 1: and when he found out it was from a Scorsese movie, 651 00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:51,440 Speaker 1: he had to ask Robbie about his involvement. So I 652 00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:56,920 Speaker 1: heard this on the radio, on some obscure streaming thing. 653 00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 1: I had no idea what it was and started researching 654 00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:03,600 Speaker 1: trying to find out because I hadn't heard anything like 655 00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,200 Speaker 1: this before. It was fascinating to me, and it was 656 00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: fascinating because the I was familiar with the music, but 657 00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,400 Speaker 1: not familiar enough to know what it was. But I 658 00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,080 Speaker 1: feel like I'd heard the music before. And then I'm 659 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,280 Speaker 1: listening to the vocals and I'm thinking this the singer 660 00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:25,800 Speaker 1: is unbelievable, But it sounds like the singer's not listening 661 00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,120 Speaker 1: to the music she's singing to, even though it fits 662 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:36,120 Speaker 1: like it clearly works, but there's a strange, alien connection 663 00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,600 Speaker 1: to it, and it just sounds like magic. To me. 664 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,440 Speaker 1: It sounds like a brand new kind of music. So 665 00:46:41,760 --> 00:46:43,399 Speaker 1: when I saw Robbie the other day, I asked him 666 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:46,520 Speaker 1: about it, because I didn't know who made it, but 667 00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:48,880 Speaker 1: I knew that it was in a soundtrack that he 668 00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:50,600 Speaker 1: was involved in, and I asked him how it came 669 00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:54,399 Speaker 1: to pass, and tell us how it came to pass. 670 00:46:55,480 --> 00:47:02,360 Speaker 1: I was working on the music from Martin Scorsese's movie 671 00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:11,520 Speaker 1: Shutter Island and uh and and I was I was 672 00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:15,040 Speaker 1: on a roll of a certain kind of music that 673 00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:20,520 Speaker 1: him and I hadn't really experimented with much before, with 674 00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:26,600 Speaker 1: Christoph Penderski, who is somebody that I've admired for years. 675 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:32,320 Speaker 1: And I told I've said to Marty over some day, sometime, 676 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,920 Speaker 1: we've got to find a way to use some Penderski 677 00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:43,280 Speaker 1: and some John Cage and some you know, modern classical 678 00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:48,480 Speaker 1: musics in a movie. So when he decided he was 679 00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:54,640 Speaker 1: going to direct this film, and he sent me the 680 00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,600 Speaker 1: script and uh and he said, yeah, it give you 681 00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: any ideas, And I said, this is it, this is 682 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:06,759 Speaker 1: the time, this is when we can. I think we can. 683 00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:12,239 Speaker 1: He said, whoa really modern classical music and that, he said, 684 00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:17,320 Speaker 1: interesting because it's a it's a movie about insanity, and 685 00:48:19,080 --> 00:48:25,279 Speaker 1: modern classical music is fearless and expressing some of that 686 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:30,959 Speaker 1: part of the mind. So anyway, we did a lot 687 00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,200 Speaker 1: of things in the movie and it was great fun 688 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,600 Speaker 1: and so we you know, all this stuff. And then 689 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: at the end it was like he said, I said, 690 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: I don't have anything figured out yet for the end 691 00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:51,759 Speaker 1: of the movie and the end credits. So I had 692 00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:58,439 Speaker 1: heard this piece of music by this composer, Max Richter. 693 00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:04,160 Speaker 1: I think it's called Daylight something or um. But anyway, 694 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,400 Speaker 1: i'd heard this piece of music and there was almost 695 00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:12,960 Speaker 1: the dodgioish, you know, there was something that really pulled 696 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:17,160 Speaker 1: on your heartstrings in it, and and it fit in 697 00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:22,200 Speaker 1: to the other world that we were experimenting. And there 698 00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:26,200 Speaker 1: was a song that I knew about for years that 699 00:49:26,920 --> 00:49:31,960 Speaker 1: just that stayed with me by Dinah Washington, who has 700 00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:38,920 Speaker 1: always been a favorite of mine. Her sound, her interpretation, 701 00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,359 Speaker 1: I've you know, she's just one of my faves over 702 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:47,560 Speaker 1: the years. So I'm thinking about this song, this Bitter 703 00:49:47,760 --> 00:49:51,880 Speaker 1: Earth that she's sang, I'm thinking about this Max Richter 704 00:49:52,200 --> 00:49:57,719 Speaker 1: classical piece and I and there was a connection there 705 00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,239 Speaker 1: for me. So then I I have them. I check it. 706 00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: They're both in the same key. Hmm. So I then 707 00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: took the Dinah Washington piece and I cut out each 708 00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:18,960 Speaker 1: of her lines in the song like you would a 709 00:50:19,080 --> 00:50:24,279 Speaker 1: sample and hip hop you know it. So I had 710 00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: her whole performance. Now I've got the Max Richter piece. 711 00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:34,560 Speaker 1: So I take her line by line and lay her 712 00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,680 Speaker 1: in the way I would have sung it on top 713 00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:42,080 Speaker 1: of the Max Richter thing. I just put her there 714 00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:46,759 Speaker 1: and I do this thing. And it's I don't even 715 00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:50,000 Speaker 1: know if you're allowed to do that. It's like, can 716 00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:55,200 Speaker 1: you do that with Dinah Washington and this great composer 717 00:50:55,480 --> 00:51:00,120 Speaker 1: Max Richter. I don't know, but I can't help but 718 00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: do this. So I lay this stuff in. I send 719 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:11,080 Speaker 1: it to Scarsese and say, I've tried something here, but 720 00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:13,000 Speaker 1: I've got to warn you. I don't know that this 721 00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:19,719 Speaker 1: is okay, but there's something about it. And see what 722 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:22,400 Speaker 1: So he said, what do you mean not okay? And 723 00:51:22,480 --> 00:51:26,120 Speaker 1: I said, I've taken a liberty on this thing, and 724 00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm taking somebody's music and I'm putting it with somebody 725 00:51:30,160 --> 00:51:33,840 Speaker 1: else's music. And this is not like a little sample 726 00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:37,480 Speaker 1: in a hip hop too and where we're playing a 727 00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:40,000 Speaker 1: little riff of James Brown here for a moment and 728 00:51:40,080 --> 00:51:43,720 Speaker 1: then we're onto something else. This is the whole piece 729 00:51:44,800 --> 00:51:48,440 Speaker 1: of these two artists. So anyway, I send it and 730 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:52,080 Speaker 1: he says, oh my god, this is beautiful and it's 731 00:51:52,320 --> 00:51:56,799 Speaker 1: perfect at the end of this movie, and what did 732 00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,480 Speaker 1: this thing and to have this bitter earth come on 733 00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:07,640 Speaker 1: after this thing? And so anyway, so then I say, well, 734 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,359 Speaker 1: I'm not going to call them and ask him if 735 00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:16,160 Speaker 1: it's okay. Somebody has to call Max Richter and Dinah 736 00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: Washington's family or kids or whoever and see if it's 737 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:25,480 Speaker 1: okay that I've done this right. And they called and 738 00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,279 Speaker 1: they get the coming back and they said they heard 739 00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: it and they love it. I thought, wow, that's a 740 00:52:32,360 --> 00:52:35,560 Speaker 1: really good sign, you know, because a lot of people 741 00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:40,640 Speaker 1: are like, you cannot mess with this, you know, you 742 00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:46,200 Speaker 1: you know, you can't cross that line. That's that's a sin, right, 743 00:52:47,160 --> 00:52:50,440 Speaker 1: And that they said they liked it. So anyway, it 744 00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,239 Speaker 1: ended up at the end of this movie. And I 745 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:58,640 Speaker 1: was telling Rick the other day some months ago, I'm 746 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:03,560 Speaker 1: watching a French movie that I was curious about. I'm 747 00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:07,320 Speaker 1: watching this movie, and throughout the movie they used this 748 00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:13,440 Speaker 1: piece of music, and so I'd say to Martin SCORSESEI 749 00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,520 Speaker 1: I said, Wow, I was watching this movie and they're 750 00:53:16,760 --> 00:53:21,880 Speaker 1: using this throughout the movie, not just once. They're using it, 751 00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,600 Speaker 1: you know, a few times. And he says, they can't 752 00:53:25,680 --> 00:53:31,239 Speaker 1: do that. I said, they did. It might be too 753 00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:33,640 Speaker 1: late for us to object. And then they looked at 754 00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,479 Speaker 1: the soundtrack and they said, who's Morris Levy? Why is he? Yeah, 755 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 1: it makes her voice sounds like I was thinking, I 756 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:43,239 Speaker 1: kind know that voice. Yeah, I never would have guessed. 757 00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,800 Speaker 1: I never would have made the connection. It sounds some 758 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:49,600 Speaker 1: marks exactly. It's like it's so modern. It felt just 759 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,120 Speaker 1: completely about guard but beautiful and unlike anything I heard before. 760 00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: Thanks to Robbie Robertson for a coming on the show, 761 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:02,480 Speaker 1: and of course for reading Shane RelA. You can hear 762 00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:06,680 Speaker 1: some of Robbie's music, including songs Office twenty nineteen release Cinematic, 763 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:09,920 Speaker 1: by listening to our playlist for this episode at Broken 764 00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,759 Speaker 1: Record podcast dot com. And while you're there, sign up 765 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:18,200 Speaker 1: for our Behind the Salmon's newsletter. Broken Record is produced 766 00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,840 Speaker 1: help from Leah Rose, Jason Gambrel, Mia Lobelle and is 767 00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:25,440 Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. Our THEE Musics by Kenny Beats. 768 00:54:25,800 --> 00:54:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond. Thanks for listening.