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Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hey

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Speaker 1: Whipsmarty's Happy National coming out Day. I am so thrilled

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Speaker 1: to be joined by one of my favorite humans who

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Speaker 1: is also a perfect guest on a day like today,

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Speaker 1: none other than Er fight Master. They are an incredible actor, musician,

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Speaker 1: and writer. Er earned a degree from DePaul University in

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Speaker 1: Women and Gender Studies, which they explain has influenced their comedy,

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Speaker 1: their writing, and everything about the way they perform in

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Speaker 1: the world. In twenty twenty, Er was named a member

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Speaker 1: of the CBS creative and writing team to lead the

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Speaker 1: Studio Actors Showcase. Following a two season stint on Hulu's Shrill.

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Speaker 1: In twenty twenty one, Er was cast in a recurring

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Speaker 1: role on Gray's Anatomy as the show's first non binary doctor,

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Speaker 1: and you will hear them explain why it was such

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Speaker 1: a pleasure to represent their community existing so joyfully on

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Speaker 1: that show. And most recently, they've started a solo music

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Speaker 1: project under the name fight Master. Their debut EP, Violence

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Speaker 1: is set to be released on October twentieth, and we

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Speaker 1: are going to talk all about it. Hello, my dear,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: It's good to see you.

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Speaker 1: It's nice to see you. Okay, so tell us what's

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Speaker 1: going on in your world. I feel like we have

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Speaker 1: so much to talk about today, but I just want

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Speaker 1: to check in, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I'm just I'm getting the I'm getting. This computer is.

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Speaker 2: I can't tell you how precariously situated it is on

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Speaker 2: a part of a shoe box.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, mine's on a box.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So I had this like cool little computer stand and

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Speaker 1: then I took it on a trip and maybe I

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Speaker 1: left it and now I just I'm back on a box.

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Speaker 2: You can't travel with anything cool because that it disappears.

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Speaker 2: Like I went on a trip recently and I had

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Speaker 2: this beautiful Fuji camera that I've been using for years,

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Speaker 2: probably like four years, and I put it on the

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Speaker 2: top of a car while a lot was going on,

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Speaker 2: and then I drove away, and so uh and I

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Speaker 2: you know, you know where you're like that they're just possessions,

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Speaker 2: They're just possessions. I think about that thing every day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah because it was great.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because it was wonderful, and I can buy another one.

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Speaker 2: But you know that, you know that stubborn feeling is

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Speaker 2: like when you lost it, where you're like, I can

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Speaker 2: buy another one. Uh, I can't. I'm not going to

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Speaker 2: replace it. I'm just gonna suffer with what I've done.

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Speaker 1: You'll suffer for a while and then you'll break and

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Speaker 1: you'll buy one on eBay.

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Speaker 2: Damn it, I'm already looking. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So aside from losing things, what else have you

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Speaker 1: been up to.

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Speaker 2: Well, I've been putting out I've been putting out an

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Speaker 2: EP and it's been really fun. The EPs called Violence,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it's the first project I've always done

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Speaker 2: art and like team environments. Like I started out doing

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Speaker 2: comedy and that's a big team sport if you're not

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Speaker 2: doing stand up. And and then I you know, I

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Speaker 2: was on I acted on some series and then and

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Speaker 2: that's a team sport. And then I was a writer

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Speaker 2: on a series and that's definitely a team sport. And

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Speaker 2: this was and I was in a band before before

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Speaker 2: fight Master, which is the name of my current project,

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Speaker 2: and this one. It was like, it's just been so

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Speaker 2: nice to be like, oh, I'm like the team leader

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Speaker 2: and the whole the team is like I'm bringing in

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Speaker 2: people to help me, but this is my thing. And

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Speaker 2: so that's been really cool. Like every everything I've I

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Speaker 2: saw a Tyler Creator. I think like interview once where

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Speaker 2: he was like, you can't be embarrassed about promoting your work.

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Speaker 2: You can't be promote embarrassed about promoting your art because

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Speaker 2: that basically it means it's bad art. Like if you

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Speaker 2: love the art you made, you have the shamelessly promote it.

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Speaker 2: And that's where I am right now, and like just

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Speaker 2: talking to everybody about the CP because I love it.

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Speaker 1: I love that. Okay, so being a team sport kid

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Speaker 1: and I want to well, actually I'm going to start

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Speaker 1: all the way back where I normally do because I

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Speaker 1: just said kid and reminded myself we'll come back to

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Speaker 1: this more present day question. But I love because listen,

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Speaker 1: so many of the people I interview, like people know you.

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Speaker 1: They know you from music, where they know you from comedy,

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Speaker 1: or they know you from Grace, or they know you

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Speaker 1: from you know who you are in the world and

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Speaker 1: who you encourage people to be. But like I always

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Speaker 1: want to know where people who I have like friend

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Speaker 1: crushes or brain crushes on started out, Like who were

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Speaker 1: you when you were a kid at eight years old?

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Speaker 1: Were you creative and inspired by others and wanting to

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Speaker 1: make art or were you in like a completely different

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Speaker 1: version of yourself. But now you can see how you

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Speaker 1: grew in to today you from eight year old you like,

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Speaker 1: where where does it fall?

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Speaker 2: I like this question because it's it's so it's so

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Speaker 2: much more specific than like tell me about you, which

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Speaker 2: like people do want you to start from the beginning.

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Speaker 2: But like the question of like who was I as

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Speaker 2: a person? I'm so similar. I think that the thing

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Speaker 2: that has changed is as I've gotten older, I've gotten

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Speaker 2: like calmer and kinder, you know, like frontal lobe development.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait, say more about that.

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Speaker 2: Like when I was a kid, I think this is

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Speaker 2: truly funnel ope shit, But like when I was a kid,

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Speaker 2: I was like I was actually I was playing music

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Speaker 2: from the time of a six and I was the

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Speaker 2: funny one. So like all of those things were in play,

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Speaker 2: and I was already playing sports and I was all

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Speaker 2: I was playing team sports. And but I was like

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Speaker 2: a really rough and tumble kid that got into a

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Speaker 2: lot of fire and made jokes. Not I was not

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Speaker 2: a bully, I can firmly say that. But I gotten

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Speaker 2: a lot of fights and I made jokes that were

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Speaker 2: other kids expense if I thought that they were apples

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Speaker 2: and and I actually think that that's mostly the thing

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Speaker 2: that has changed. Like I still have gotten in some

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Speaker 2: fights as adult, but i'm i'm, I just feel so

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Speaker 2: much more soft about other people's humanity, even the little

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Speaker 2: like war war spirit of self is still there. Like

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Speaker 2: you know, calling this last this EP violence was because

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Speaker 2: I had this really serious kind of awakening recently where

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Speaker 2: I was reading this book called the Communism of Love,

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Speaker 2: and it was talking about how basically, like inside of love,

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Speaker 2: non violence is a myth, like if you love something,

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Speaker 2: violence is inherent to that love. And it's it's inherent

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Speaker 2: because you can see all these marginalized communities that are

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Speaker 2: like constantly getting you know, their throats are stepped on it.

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Speaker 2: And if you love your community, you will fight for it.

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Speaker 2: If you love your partner, you will fight for them.

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Speaker 2: And so I actually do feel as violent as I

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Speaker 2: did when I was a kid. It's just now I

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Speaker 2: have the integrity behind it. Like why am I feeling violent?

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Speaker 2: I'm feeling violent because they are making trans people feel

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Speaker 2: scared all the time. I'm feeling violent because someone's saying

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Speaker 2: with my gal like that. Now I know where the

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Speaker 2: violence is coming from as opposed to being like, you know,

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Speaker 2: just a kid that wanted to experiment with how strong

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Speaker 2: I was.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Wait, I love that. I love the reframing of violence,

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Speaker 1: violence as not being something where you are lashing out

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Speaker 1: or where you are indiscriminately hurting someone. I've thought about

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Speaker 1: that softening that you talk about, which I find that

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Speaker 1: I'm experiencing as I get older as well. I have

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Speaker 1: always chosen, you could say, like chosen violence. I've always

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Speaker 1: chosen to stand up for people, and especially marginalized people.

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Speaker 1: And what I've learned is that there is the ability

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Speaker 1: to kind of direct that energy, like when you really

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Speaker 1: think about the tip of the spear. I think a

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Speaker 1: lot about how I always want to re examine if

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Speaker 1: I am fighting for or I'm fighting with. I am

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Speaker 1: less interested in fighting with my enemies than I am

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Speaker 1: in fighting for my community. Like I don't necessarily want

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Speaker 1: to get into a waste of time tete a tet

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Speaker 1: with someone who, as you just highlighted, wants to deny

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Speaker 1: the existence of trans folks. Like no, I'm I'm going

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Speaker 1: to make sure that my activism helps to absolutely annihilate

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Speaker 1: your ability to say these horrible transphobic things. We're not

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Speaker 1: gonna We're not gonna do this, But can my choice

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Speaker 1: of violence be loving for yes and with my people?

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Speaker 2: Uh huh. I love that. And I think that we're

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Speaker 2: what we're doing now is we're making we're making a

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Speaker 2: distinction between violence and domination. Like I think a lot

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Speaker 2: of you know, we will use this example to the

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Speaker 2: end of time. But when you look at like a

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Speaker 2: patriarchy and like these like sis white men right that

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Speaker 2: have been like lifted to the top, they have used

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Speaker 2: violence as a tool of domination. But violence itself is

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Speaker 2: the tool. It's not that it's not the big thing

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Speaker 2: that we're worried about, like we want to say that

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Speaker 2: we're non violent, because we're we're actually saying I know,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to dominate other people, But so we

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Speaker 2: have to reframe violence as it's it's the practice of

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Speaker 2: not being a bystander for my own community. I'm not

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Speaker 2: ever going to watch anybody I love get injured and

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Speaker 2: not not become violent, Like I'm never that's never gonna

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Speaker 2: happen for me because I don't want to be a visaoner.

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Speaker 2: But I will never enact violence as a tool to

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Speaker 2: dominate Afro problem. Nothing that's I hate domination. I love violence.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, ooh, a re a re designation of the meaning

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Speaker 1: of a word makes my little like nerdy journalism brain

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Speaker 1: get very excited, like very excited. And when I think

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Speaker 1: about myself as a kid, like all that curiosity, all

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Speaker 1: that stuff that I that I had at you know,

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Speaker 1: six or eight tracks to now And I love knowing

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Speaker 1: that you can look back at yourself at six and

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Speaker 1: eight and be like, yeah, I'm the same, I've just

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Speaker 1: gotten better.

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Speaker 2: Were you I know about your work as an adult.

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Speaker 2: Were you a kid acter too? Did you start young? No?

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a heart surgeon. I was like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I had no desire to do any of this. Life

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Speaker 1: just sort of picked me up and like took me

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Speaker 1: down a path. And I had an arts requirement in school.

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Speaker 1: I had to do a play. I was super pissed

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Speaker 1: about it. One of my best friends from junior high

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Speaker 1: in high school, who I'm still best friends with, is

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Speaker 1: like such a typical theater kid, Like she's always singing

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Speaker 1: show tunes and she's hilarious, but like we're just not

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Speaker 1: the same. I was like, I don't do theater like

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Speaker 1: Betsy does theater. And then we did a play together

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh my god, it's a book

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Speaker 1: come alive. And people were like, you are so embarrassingly nerdy,

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Speaker 1: like stop talking, and I just loved it. And then

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Speaker 1: I decided I wanted to go to theater school. And

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Speaker 1: then I got to theater school and like all anybody

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Speaker 1: wanted to do was like sit in a black box

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Speaker 1: room and talk about their craft, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: I cannot do this then losing my mind. So I

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Speaker 1: transferred into the journalism school at USC and I studied

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Speaker 1: journalism and acting and that hybrid is like it's what

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Speaker 1: I do now, and it it was really how I

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Speaker 1: found myself. And so it's cool, like you're saying from

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Speaker 1: this vantage point to be able to look back and

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Speaker 1: go like, oh yeah, that tracks all of that tracks.

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Speaker 2: Ooh, I love that, and you know I love I

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Speaker 2: like talking to I think. I think a lot of

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Speaker 2: times are we actually are exactly the same people that

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Speaker 2: we were as children, but along the way it gets disappeared,

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Speaker 2: and it usually gets disappeared because of whatever our marginalized

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Speaker 2: status is. Like you you can see when you look

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Speaker 2: at little boys that like oftentimes like we'll joke about

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Speaker 2: like he's the exact same dude, but we don't get

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Speaker 2: that with like people that have to adjust to survive

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Speaker 2: and and so I think it's fun now when you

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Speaker 2: know we're talking about really be all being in the

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Speaker 2: process of becoming. Is this actually it's the process of

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Speaker 2: returning to who we were at the very beginning with

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Speaker 2: the tools that we have now, like with the positive

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Speaker 2: things that we've gotten along the way. And I like that.

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Speaker 2: I'm excited that you're kind of the same bad bitch.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but but I feel that I feel like I'm returning.

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Speaker 1: I yeah, you know, I have had a wild summer.

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Speaker 1: I also just turned forty one, and I said it, honestly,

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Speaker 1: I feel I feel hot, like and I've never felt

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Speaker 1: like that, which lol for like a you know, a

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Speaker 1: girl who like played the hot cheerleader on her first show.

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Speaker 1: I was ever comfortable with it. I hated the clothes,

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Speaker 1: I hated everything about it. I came to love that character.

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Speaker 1: But I truly, for the first time in my life,

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Speaker 1: feel embodied, like in my being and in my identity.

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Speaker 1: And I realized that, you know, I got on a

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Speaker 1: TV show a week after my twenty first birthday and

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Speaker 1: it has been a twenty year cycle for me of

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Speaker 1: being a good soldier, a good employee, a good girl,

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Speaker 1: being a good daughter of immigrants. That you know, that's

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Speaker 1: a forty year job for me, like all the things

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Speaker 1: I've done, and I like, I feel like I've taken

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Speaker 1: the book of my adulthood that was really about I

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Speaker 1: didn't even know, like I was so culture to do

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Speaker 1: what I should and to do what was good for

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Speaker 1: everybody else that I had no idea how often I

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Speaker 1: had turned my back on myself. And I've taken the

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Speaker 1: should book and like shut it and I threw it

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Speaker 1: in the fire. And now I'm in the want era,

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Speaker 1: Like what do I want? What do I desire? What

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Speaker 1: do I want to go and explore? Rather than what

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Speaker 1: are people putting in front of me? And what will

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Speaker 1: I choose of the options they give me? So that

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Speaker 1: I don't appear to need any more or to have

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Speaker 1: any greed, or to have any more ambition than anyone

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Speaker 1: else tells me? Is appropriate?

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Speaker 2: Like that?

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Speaker 1: And to find your identity when you didn't even realize

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Speaker 1: you'd lost it is like a wild journey, yes, And

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Speaker 1: I know how profound it feels for me. And when

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Speaker 1: I look around my community at like all of the

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Speaker 1: diverse women and queer people in my life who stand

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Speaker 1: in their identities, who are on their own journey of identity, Like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I even look at our new friendship, but

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Speaker 1: like the profound conversations we've had, and I think, like,

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Speaker 1: look at you just standing in yourself, Like when when

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Speaker 1: did you give yourself permission to be exactly who you are?

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Speaker 1: Or did you always just know that you deserved to

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Speaker 1: have it? Take it be it.

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Speaker 2: I I don't think I thought about it as deserving.

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Speaker 2: I think that there was a point at which I

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Speaker 2: decided or I realized I was only ever going to

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Speaker 2: be me, and everything changed. Like it's not that everything

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Speaker 2: changed and then everything was wonderful, Like I still had

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Speaker 2: a lot of growing to do, but like when I

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Speaker 2: was in high school, I was having this like not

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Speaker 2: having the language for being gay and not really seeing

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Speaker 2: any gay people and so actually just feeling this like

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Speaker 2: massive like hole of discontent and kind of confusion all

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Speaker 2: the time that like manifested in like a pretty solid,

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Speaker 2: you know, depression. Then once I got to college and

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Speaker 2: I saw other queer people and I saw people existing,

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Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, as long as I can

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Speaker 2: name myself then I I can deal with who I am,

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Speaker 2: and I can deal with my life. But before I

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Speaker 2: could name myself, I couldn't handle any of those things.

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Speaker 2: So everything, I guess to clarify this thought, I never

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Speaker 2: pretended to be anybody but myself, but I did need

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Speaker 2: the language of self recognition. I had to have that

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Speaker 2: in order then to pursue who I am.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like the vision coming to me while

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Speaker 1: you talk is like of nesting dolls, and it's like

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Speaker 1: when you're in, when you're in the little core, and

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Speaker 1: what fits inside that tiny doll is all the information

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Speaker 1: you have or the language or the access. That's what

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Speaker 1: you have. And then you go up a size and

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Speaker 1: you have more words, and you have maybe a bigger

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Speaker 1: community or more resources, or you see more people who

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Speaker 1: make you understand yourself. And like, through our lives, I

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Speaker 1: feel like, you know, we shed a size and we

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Speaker 1: grow and we grow and we grow hopefully, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you're lucky enough to continue to expand. But it

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Speaker 1: sounds like you're talking about that natural sort of evolutionary

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Speaker 1: expansion of self that can only happen as you collect

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Speaker 1: like knowledge, space, mirrors, experiences.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think that's what you're talking about. With this

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Speaker 2: like group of friends that we have now, it's like

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Speaker 2: we're we're with a lot of people that have had

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Speaker 2: to learn about their own identity because actually we're in

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Speaker 2: the public eye, and so we've had this kind of

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Speaker 2: like crash course a lot faster, Like we had to

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Speaker 2: learn things by twenty five that maybe people don't have

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Speaker 2: to learn un till thirty five.

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Speaker 1: And so we're.

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Speaker 2: Around a bunch of people that feel energetically a nesting

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Speaker 2: doll size bigger than they should. And so we're in

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Speaker 2: this room full of like somehow these like energetic giants

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Speaker 2: that because they're constantly being watched, I had to be like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: if I'm being witnessed all the time, I need to

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Speaker 2: know who I am. I don't have any time to

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Speaker 2: not know how I am. And I don't have a

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Speaker 2: lot of time to not be kind to myself, because

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Speaker 2: if I want to go online and see a comment

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Speaker 2: telling me to kill myself, I'm gonna find it, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. So I have to be my

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Speaker 2: own ally. I have to do my own becoming. I

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Speaker 2: have to be really firm. I have to look for

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Speaker 2: the language to describe myself. I have to read about

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Speaker 2: that language constantly, and here I am in a room

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Speaker 2: full of people who have done the same work. That

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Speaker 2: feels awesome.

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Speaker 1: That's really a beautiful way to put it. I feel

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Speaker 1: that more recently, and I think for me and my experience,

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Speaker 1: I was so so subconsciously encouraged to serve others for

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Speaker 1: so long, and by the way, serving others is one

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Speaker 1: of the things I like best about myself. But it

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Speaker 1: was a really uneven scale.

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Speaker 2: And you want to consent to it, you want it

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Speaker 2: to be your decision.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so it's been really interesting to figure out

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Speaker 1: how I can be more than just the person making

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Speaker 1: sure everyone else has what they need, but learning to

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Speaker 1: learning to sort of in that bigger sized doll of

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Speaker 1: myself that likes to be good to people in the world,

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Speaker 1: how she can look at one of the smaller ones

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Speaker 1: inside of her and like remother or or care in

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Speaker 1: a new way for past versions of myself that I

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Speaker 1: never prioritized. I never thought I was allowed to do that.

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Speaker 2: I like just one of the way that I like

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Speaker 2: watching you at the Angel City Games because I think

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Speaker 2: I think you have a really great you have a

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Speaker 2: really great, joyful energy, and that's something I really love about,

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Speaker 2: like you know, like my friends, like the people that

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Speaker 2: I that I just adore the most is like the

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Speaker 2: core thing that I think of them usually is like

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Speaker 2: they've got good does a joy And I love watching

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Speaker 2: you at the Angel City Games because I think in

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Speaker 2: this like pursuit to really push women's sports to the forefront.

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Speaker 2: What what we have over the years of watching men's

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Speaker 2: sports is we have shots of these fans having an

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Speaker 2: awesome time, right Like all these men's sports have always

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Speaker 2: been televised. We've got Spike Spike Lee in the front

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Speaker 2: row of these games, smiling and a cool outfit. We've

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Speaker 2: got we have all these images of people joyfully watching

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Speaker 2: the game. And women's sports has been adored for so

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Speaker 2: long or not even televised for so long that like

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Speaker 2: you going in there and being on the jumbotrons smiling

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Speaker 2: all big with these like pink rosy cheeks, just having

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Speaker 2: the time of your life, pulling the little shot of

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Speaker 2: whatever alcohol that was, Like it's it's you're making it

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Speaker 2: seem like such a fun party. And I actually think

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Speaker 2: that's our job right now. It's like it's our job

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Speaker 2: to go to women's sports and be joyful and bring

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Speaker 2: people in through that.

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Speaker 1: Joy well, and it is the most fun Like those

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Speaker 1: are my most fun nights. I love seeing the crew.

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Speaker 1: I love rooting for our team. I also love that

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Speaker 1: we overarchingly root for the whole league. Yes you know,

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Speaker 1: it's like no matter who wins, I think we all win.

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Speaker 1: And it's funny because I remember back in the day,

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Speaker 1: like when I first became friends with Abby wamback it

386
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Speaker 1: was truly just as a fan, like a crazy and

387
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Speaker 1: she was like, yo, you and your friends are like

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Speaker 1: up at four am Instagram storying like World Cup games

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Speaker 1: at sports bars that you've convinced to open in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the night in La and we were like

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Speaker 1: I was like yeah, because we're obsessed. Like I grew

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00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: up playing Aiso soccer, die for soccer, have terrible asthma.

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Speaker 1: I am not meant to be a runner. So like

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Speaker 1: the fact that that little girl who always loved soccer

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Speaker 1: has grown up to be friends with like you know,

396
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Speaker 1: Abby and Pino and all of our national team players

397
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Speaker 1: who by the way, went on to SOFIFA and win legends.

398
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Speaker 1: Like those women are my friends. What and now we

399
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,439
Speaker 1: own a soccer team, Like what are we talking about?

400
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:16,399
Speaker 1: This this whole adventure that you know started for me

401
00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 1: at seven has has at forty one, become larger than

402
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,719
Speaker 1: my wildest dreams. And yeah, I think it's the reason

403
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 1: that so many of us who become friends through that

404
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:28,960
Speaker 1: world go, oh, we're the same, Like I see you.

405
00:22:29,080 --> 00:22:31,639
Speaker 1: There's there's joy in this and there's also purpose in

406
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,760
Speaker 1: this And what a what a sick thing to merge

407
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:40,359
Speaker 1: like in your hotness and in your world? Do you

408
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,400
Speaker 1: when you talk about finding because I think I think

409
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 1: a lot about how this world helps a lot of

410
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Speaker 1: people find their identities. Like part of the joy in

411
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:53,520
Speaker 1: our in our fan base of women's soccer is the

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Speaker 1: diversity and the inclusion. And and you talked about your

413
00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 1: perspective on like diversity and identity changing when you went

414
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Speaker 1: to college, and I know you come from like you know,

415
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,159
Speaker 1: Chicago improv legendary world, which I loved. Did you go

416
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: to college in Chicago or did you make your way

417
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: there after college? Like how did that timeline work for you?

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Speaker 2: I started at school in Cincinnati, I started college in Cincinnati,

419
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Speaker 2: and then a Chicago improv troup, the Second City came

420
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Speaker 2: and did a show in Cincinnati, and I took a

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Speaker 2: workshop with them, and once I took an improv workshop,

422
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Speaker 2: it was like I was a true convert, Like it

423
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: was all over for me. And so I transferred schools

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Speaker 2: to DePaul so that I wouldn't disappoint anyone and finish

425
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Speaker 2: getting a degree. But then I was taking classes at

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Speaker 2: Second City the whole time, and I was like I

427
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 2: took classes, it was every night, and I was performing

428
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: every night. And then during the day I was going

429
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Speaker 2: to school. But the the awesome part then I tell,

430
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Speaker 2: oh my god, I tell all the kids that I

431
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: ever teach improv this like, you don't need to have

432
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,400
Speaker 2: an art degree to do art. You do not need

433
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: to do that. In fact, sometimes it's really nice to

434
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 2: be informed by something else, like I have a Women

435
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,720
Speaker 2: in Gender Studies degree. Yeah, I think having a women

436
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: and Gender Studies degree made me a better improviser because

437
00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 2: it actually people think that, like the that comedy is

438
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,120
Speaker 2: all about that unfunny. People think comedy is all about

439
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: being inappropriate and rude or cruel. But good comedy is

440
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 2: about bringing together as many people in the room as

441
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:33,679
Speaker 2: possible for one joke. And if you study something like

442
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 2: gender studies, which is like really studying feminism and you know,

443
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 2: feminism being the belief that we're all equal. You're creating

444
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 2: a brain space for yourself where you do believe those things,

445
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,560
Speaker 2: so you're not Actually I'm never worried about making a

446
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:53,680
Speaker 2: joke now about that's going to offend a group of people,

447
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: because I actually don't feel that way about a group

448
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: of people, you know what I mean. And I saw

449
00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 2: a lot of the guys that I was a around

450
00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: think that they were like pushing boundaries by like making jokes.

451
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: It was like, but that the reason that that's reading

452
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,920
Speaker 2: to the audience as like racist or sexist or unkind

453
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,120
Speaker 2: is because it actually is a belief of yours. So

454
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: so like people will say that like feminist aren't funny,

455
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:18,119
Speaker 2: Like I'm funny because I'm a feminist.

456
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:28,479
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that And now for our sponsors, Okay,

457
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: So in that space, like your college career studying gender

458
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 1: finding comedy, you know, you talked about getting to college

459
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: and being able to see more of who you were

460
00:25:46,880 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: because you got to see other people living as themselves.

461
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,120
Speaker 1: Like where you know, because it is National coming out Day.

462
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 1: Where where in the journey of those years for you

463
00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: did you because you said you went, oh, I am gay,

464
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 1: and then I wonder, like, where where in the journey

465
00:26:06,400 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: of your life did you say, actually, like even binary

466
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,000
Speaker 1: labels don't fit me, like I am a non binary person.

467
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: Was it sort of like a was it one and

468
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 1: then the other? Or do you look back and realize

469
00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: like when you just knew.

470
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 2: Well, I think that like if we're not talking about

471
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 2: gender and sex and sexuality as relational like that's that's

472
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,920
Speaker 2: the gender studies world. So when I was in college

473
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 2: with all of these awesome queer people, I will be honest,

474
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 2: I wasn't really thinking about the people I was around

475
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 2: in the terms that we use really publicly now of

476
00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: like I mean, it's gonna say, this is gonna sound

477
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,280
Speaker 2: kind of bizarre, but like I wasn't thinking about them

478
00:26:56,320 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 2: in terms of like woman and man and sis and trans.

479
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: I was thinking about people more actually, in a more

480
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 2: honestly gendered way where I was like, there, I'm butch

481
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 2: and and that's my fem friend, and my fem friend

482
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 2: can be a trans a trans person, or my friend

483
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: can be a SIS woman or and so I was thinking,

484
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: and I kind of do when I'm in queer spaces,

485
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 2: that is how I think about people. And then I

486
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: was leaving that bubble and I was going out into

487
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 2: the world, and I was having people call me she

488
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 2: in a way that I realized that all of their

489
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: connotations of she wasn't where my gender was like. And

490
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 2: so the really becoming like finding their language for a

491
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:46,240
Speaker 2: non binary for me was like, I have a more

492
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 2: wholesome understanding than American cultural gender, like of gender than

493
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,400
Speaker 2: American cultural gender. I have an understanding of gender as energetic.

494
00:27:54,800 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 2: Then I would rather be perceived for my energy my

495
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: gender then have cultural American gender laid on me every

496
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: time someone meets me, because that's always going to disappoint people.

497
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 2: And I just want people to meet me, and so

498
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: that's non binary for me. It's like I want people

499
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,040
Speaker 2: to meet me the human being. I don't need people

500
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 2: to meet me and go, well, I know what your

501
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 2: privates look like, and so here's what I'm going to

502
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 2: treat you as. To me, it's a little perverted.

503
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean deeply. And something that I find really

504
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: interesting is how there are so many people who just

505
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: don't know that that's often the experience that we're met

506
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: with based on other people's assumptions or estimations of our

507
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 1: gender or our bodies and the way that that ripples

508
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 1: into the way that they estimate or assume about our behavior,

509
00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: our desire, our capability. It's big.

510
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 2: Mh. Well, and it's it's not. I think people think

511
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: that when you're when you're talking about like leaving the binary,

512
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 2: that you say that you don't have respect for. We're

513
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 2: never talking about men when we talk about this. We're

514
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 2: always talking about womanhood, where we're like, but I actually

515
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,239
Speaker 2: respect womanhood so much, but I respect it as this

516
00:29:23,360 --> 00:29:27,520
Speaker 2: massive institution, like really truly this like energetic institution. So

517
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:35,040
Speaker 2: I don't reduce womanhood to having a vagina. I some

518
00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:38,920
Speaker 2: of like the most profound women I know are trans

519
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: and some of the most you know, profound women I

520
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:43,920
Speaker 2: know are ses. And so actually, then what we're talking

521
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 2: about is we're like, oh, then we're not talking about

522
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 2: privates anymore. We're talking about like when I meet a woman,

523
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: I'm so attracted to womanhood and it's to me, being

524
00:29:53,680 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 2: a woman is the biggest thing you can be. And

525
00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 2: I I respect she her prono for that exact thing,

526
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: Like I think women are the biggest thing you can be,

527
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: and so I love when women use the she her

528
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 2: pronouns that feel good for them. For me, that was

529
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,960
Speaker 2: not the fit, and so it was not me. When

530
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 2: I actually when I started switching uh my pronouns today them,

531
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 2: I remember feeling this like almost this feeling like I

532
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:28,560
Speaker 2: had abandoned womanhood. But my reverence for womanhood is so

533
00:30:28,800 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 2: far beyond most people's that it's it leaving behind womanhood.

534
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 2: But there was a little bit of mourning, and then

535
00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: I realized that I was like I could watch it

536
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 2: from the stands so much more comfortably than I could

537
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 2: pretend to be a part of it.

538
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: That's really beautiful. I think there's something very cool about

539
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 1: being able to sort of like shuck the the like

540
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: little box that society wants to put you in, and say,

541
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 1: like if I zoom out. I try to think about

542
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 1: this a lot when I'm trying to make sense of

543
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: how I feel about something, or I want to consider

544
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: other perspectives. I think about, like zooming out to the

545
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: bird's eye view. I'm like, Okay, if I were looking

546
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: at this from an airplane, what would it be like?

547
00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: And I feel like listening to you, I get almost

548
00:31:21,080 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 1: that vision of you being able to zoom out and say, oh,

549
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,040
Speaker 1: I'm able to see what this means in such a

550
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: larger sense about who we are, not just what we're

551
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 1: told we fit into. And one of the things I've

552
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:44,280
Speaker 1: found really profound this summer in like studying the world

553
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: around me through a new lens and identity is And

554
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:52,239
Speaker 1: you mentioned this, like the danger of patriarchy when you

555
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 1: talk about the reverence for womanhood, like my reverence for

556
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: matriarchal energy, like true centered society on that womanhood, if

557
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: you will, like absolutely, I know exactly what you mean

558
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: when you say some of the most incredible women you

559
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: know are trance, Like there is such a bigger that

560
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,240
Speaker 1: bigger zoom out, And I don't know that I exactly

561
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: have the words to respond in exactly the way I

562
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 1: want to to what you're saying, but like it's because

563
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 1: it's for me right now. It's like vision, Like you're

564
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: saying something to me and my brain is animating it

565
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: and I just feel it and like my insights are like, yes,

566
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: exactly that exactly what you're saying.

567
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I think you and I have talked

568
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:46,360
Speaker 2: a little bit about it in terms of like, you know,

569
00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 2: having children and not having children, Like I think the

570
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: you can the worst part about American culture right now

571
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,239
Speaker 2: is that if you were to describe womanhood through an

572
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 2: American cultural lens, you would use a bunch of things

573
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 2: that don't actually apply to like all women, you know

574
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: what I mean, right you would be you would hear

575
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 2: the terms mother a bunch, you would think about genitoles.

576
00:33:16,360 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: And I actually think that that's a very concerted effort

577
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: on the part of a patriarchy that doesn't want women

578
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,320
Speaker 2: to know how vast and powerful they are. And I

579
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: think that womanhood is such a powerful thing to be

580
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 2: a part of that they have they do have a

581
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 2: stake in keeping people from joining the ranks, you know,

582
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 2: trying to keep trans women out of womanhood. That's less

583
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 2: people in the ranks of womanhood, and womanhood is the

584
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: most powerful thing on earth. Trying to tell women that

585
00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 2: they're not women enough because they don't have children, or

586
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 2: that they're not sexy anymore because they do have children,

587
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: or they're not power they're not sexy anymore because they've aged, aka,

588
00:33:55,680 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 2: they're coming into their power. Like we have put so

589
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: many many rules on what it means to be a

590
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,280
Speaker 2: good woman that like there's like a three year period

591
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: where you can be a good woman and you're never

592
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: actually going to be doing it right, whereas manhood think

593
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 2: about how much easier it is, how much more broad

594
00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: it is to be a man. And so I do

595
00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: think that that's That's something that I'm also coming into

596
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 2: is like being you know, we talk about this like

597
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 2: sports community, you're singing a bunch of good women that

598
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: he didn't listen to kind of anything you were told

599
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: about being a woman. Like they lift weights, they're playing sports,

600
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,120
Speaker 2: they're their own business. The ones that did have children

601
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 2: had had children while being told that they'd never be

602
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 2: able to do both. Some of these women you know

603
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 2: will never have children and while being told that they should.

604
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:50,839
Speaker 2: It's like you get in sports this like beautiful microcosm

605
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 2: of a bunch of women being like, no, I kind

606
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 2: of decide what woman is to me?

607
00:34:55,360 --> 00:35:00,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, cool, I love it. I love it. It really

608
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: is so so cool. And when when we look at

609
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: all these spaces that I think we are able to

610
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: change by being part of them, do you do you

611
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,640
Speaker 1: feel that way also in your career because like you know,

612
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 1: people people got so excited, like when when you hit

613
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: the show in twenty twenty one, right, that was that

614
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,280
Speaker 1: was the first year, like being the first non binary

615
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,799
Speaker 1: character on Grays Like, did that feel amazing? Is it

616
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:39,200
Speaker 1: like a point of pride? Is it like it's about time?

617
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 1: Is it all the things?

618
00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 2: I really feel so honored. I feel so honored by

619
00:35:48,600 --> 00:35:52,800
Speaker 2: by Grays, like by the whole experience, by being able

620
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: to reach a bunch of people that might not have

621
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,720
Speaker 2: had access to that language. And you know, there's always

622
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: been non binary people, but being being a messenger for

623
00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: my community has been such an honor. And I think

624
00:36:05,560 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 2: actually one of the big goals that I had when

625
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 2: I was playing Kai was and I feel this way

626
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 2: about like the songs that I write too, It's like

627
00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:19,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to because I feel like a very masculine

628
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:25,320
Speaker 2: person without feeling like a man. I want to show

629
00:36:26,080 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 2: healthy masculinity. And we were able to play the storyline

630
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: where one of the like the beautiful you know Fami

631
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,040
Speaker 2: leads is attracted to me and we don't make it.

632
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: We didn't make it this big deal except like the

633
00:36:40,840 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 2: last guy that she with is you know, Chris is

634
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: math like, he's just like a big bodybuilder type in

635
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 2: the the next person that she dates is me. And

636
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 2: what we were showing there without ever having to say

637
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 2: it was these are all there are a bunch of

638
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,319
Speaker 2: different versions of masculinity, and you don't have to pick

639
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,880
Speaker 2: You don't have to pick men, and you don't have

640
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 2: to you don't have to pick anything. If you're attracted

641
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: to masculinity, consider that being what you're attracted to. And

642
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 2: a lot of people did text me that they had

643
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 2: like had a sexual awakening after that experience, and it

644
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 2: wasn't about me, it was I think about It was

645
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 2: about exactly that. It was, Oh, I'm attracted to this

646
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,040
Speaker 2: person and this is not a Sai sat man. Maybe

647
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 2: it's masculinity, which I loved. That was like, really I thought,

648
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: almost like mischievous about that whole process.

649
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 1: That's so exciting. Converts well, just to broaden people's horizons,

650
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: to remind people that they're allowed to choose for themselves,

651
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: that they're allowed to pursue themselves their desire, their curiosity,

652
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: Like so many people don't realize they're not doing that

653
00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: until they realize they can.

654
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 2: Yes, we'll be back in.

655
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 1: Just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors.

656
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: You were on the show easy, you did that, Yes,

657
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 2: and that's how you know our wonderful friend Jacqueline. Yeah,

658
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 2: experience like for you.

659
00:38:11,800 --> 00:38:16,000
Speaker 1: I mean so fun for me, and it's it's really

660
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:19,399
Speaker 1: funny I had. I had this conversation one of our

661
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: one of our mutual friends from the women's Sports World

662
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,840
Speaker 1: was like, oh easy, Season three, episode three, She's like,

663
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: it's our favorite, and I was like, who's favorite. She

664
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 1: was like all of us, all of the soccer players.

665
00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:30,239
Speaker 1: I was like, I can die for you.

666
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, you know.

667
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 1: I I was really fortunate because I grew up with

668
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: a dad who's an artist in a very queer community.

669
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 1: Like my dad was an advertising and beauty photographer. Like

670
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: my uncles. You know, my family uncles are like all

671
00:38:49,160 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 1: gay men that are like makeup artists and stylists and

672
00:38:51,719 --> 00:38:55,600
Speaker 1: hairdressers like I grew up. You know, my my uncle

673
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,680
Speaker 1: Jeff's husband Winston did drag Is Diana Ross every weekend.

674
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: Like I grew up in this really special community in

675
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 1: the eighties in La like, you know, experiencing the multiculturalism

676
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: of this city, and of course like not having the

677
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: knowledge and language I have now to know about like

678
00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: zoning and disparity and all the things I now understand.

679
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:29,120
Speaker 1: But diversity in every realm was never strange to me.

680
00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,600
Speaker 1: It was always the coolest thing about where I lived.

681
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: And you know, at eight years old, like Melissa Ethridge

682
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: was my absolute icon. I just went to the opening

683
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: of her Broadway show and literally was like, come to

684
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,520
Speaker 1: my window, raised me like that was that was like

685
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: my and you know, I one of my first jobs ever,

686
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: I was. I was a recurring character on that show

687
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: Nip Tuck, and I was a bisexual teenager. And like

688
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: I've always when I've had the opportunity too, loved to

689
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: play queer characters. I love being part of this community.

690
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 2: And yeah, Easy was.

691
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:14,759
Speaker 1: So so fun for me because it was just the

692
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:20,959
Speaker 1: opportunity not only to lean into a character that I loved,

693
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 1: but to help co create her. Yeah, because Joe Swamberg

694
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: writes outlines for his projects, but not scripts, So Easy

695
00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: is improv.

696
00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:31,359
Speaker 2: Do you think most of the audience knows that? Because

697
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 2: I think that's like the most impressive part about the show.

698
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 1: Same, like, I think it's really fascinating. And Joe does

699
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: this really cool thing where you spend a full day

700
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 1: as the cast of the episode, like adventuring around Chicago

701
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: together all day before you shoot, and so you wind up,

702
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:53,160
Speaker 1: as we do as actors, you jump into such intimacy

703
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: with people so quickly. You tell stories and you talk

704
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,279
Speaker 1: about relationships and you really like dig into things, so

705
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,360
Speaker 1: by the time you get into the episode, it's remember

706
00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: you said that thing. Like Jacqueline and I have a

707
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 1: scene in a bar where I tell her that her

708
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,399
Speaker 1: ex like needing to be alone isn't the same as

709
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:15,560
Speaker 1: wanting to be without her, and like I had shared

710
00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 1: it on our Chicago day, like learning that lesson for myself,

711
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 1: and then it made it in the episode. But it

712
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:24,400
Speaker 1: was fun to be able to create this character based

713
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: on a documentary filmmaker who I adore, and yeah, to

714
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: lean into this space with one of my girlfriends who

715
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: I just think is like so talented and also who,

716
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 1: by the way, like transcends so many traditional ideas or

717
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: societal ideas of gender and who was like, you do

718
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 1: a little bit of this and I was like, yeah,

719
00:41:51,440 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: I do, and I love it. And we were like, cool,

720
00:41:53,400 --> 00:41:55,720
Speaker 1: how are we going to make these people fun on camera?

721
00:41:56,520 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: And yeah, it was just great.

722
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 2: I think, I think Jacqueline is so cool. You do

723
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: you have you do have that that wonderful thing that

724
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:12,040
Speaker 2: I think, Uh, it's it's transcends. Like once again that

725
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 2: like American idea of gender. But you you do have

726
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 2: that kind of like boss like there's you have a

727
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: really a big element of control, Like it's just like

728
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: it's you're really kind, but it's it's like, uh, you

729
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:28,719
Speaker 2: just have a boss energy, like you're really rooted. And

730
00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 2: I think that's like a really cool thing about women

731
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 2: who know themselves. It's like we would be told ten

732
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:39,760
Speaker 2: years ago that that was masculine, but what they're really

733
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: talking about is like, no, you're a bitch that knows yourself.

734
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 2: That's cool.

735
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel that, I really do. It took a

736
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: while to get here, but yeah, I think it's probably why,

737
00:42:52,600 --> 00:42:55,359
Speaker 1: like I've always been really drawn even when I think

738
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: about clothing, like why I love to wear suits, Like

739
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 1: I do have a strong masculine energy to me, and

740
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,360
Speaker 1: I think it's why. You know, it's really exciting to

741
00:43:09,400 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: be in this like evolutionary moment because I get to

742
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,359
Speaker 1: lean more and more as I age into exactly who

743
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: I am, and to always be able to learn and

744
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 1: discover about yourself is I don't know, it's just like

745
00:43:24,200 --> 00:43:27,720
Speaker 1: what a gift. Like what we were talking about earlier,

746
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 1: people want to critique aging. I'm like, no, this is

747
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: the coolest thing I've ever done. Aging is so invigorating

748
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 1: and deeply chic, like I'm here for this.

749
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:40,200
Speaker 2: We're so lucky to be able to do this.

750
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we really really are.

751
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 2: Yeah. I would not. I've never had I've never been

752
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: one of those people that's like, gosh, I was I

753
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: could only be a college student again. I do not

754
00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:56,520
Speaker 2: wish that at all. It's so much better here.

755
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, what I what I realize you know, of like

756
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: talking about how we can track back through like who

757
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: we were, who we've always been, And you said it earlier,

758
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:09,560
Speaker 1: you said, it's really such a process of becoming, like

759
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:14,880
Speaker 1: to return to self, to own self. I feel that process.

760
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:20,319
Speaker 1: It's like it's so beautiful and it's so good, like

761
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,759
Speaker 1: it's a delicious journey. Like it almost takes my breath away.

762
00:44:24,840 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 1: And I think about how now I can look back

763
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: like at college or post college age and go, oh,

764
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: the way that my body tells me things perhaps before

765
00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:41,839
Speaker 1: my brain has the words for them. It's always done that.

766
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: I just didn't know to trust my body. I didn't

767
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: know to trust my gut yet. Yeah, I can see

768
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 1: it now, and I get excited about what that's going

769
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: to mean in the future, like how much quicker the

770
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,600
Speaker 1: feeling to the understanding of the feeling is going to

771
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: get the synapses are going to fire like faster and faster.

772
00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: Do you have anything in your world right now that

773
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: feels like that? Is it perhaps this solo project where

774
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: you go like, oh, I'm leaning all in on this music,

775
00:45:14,280 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: on this individual art, or is it like a personal

776
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 1: journey or maybe it's both.

777
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: There's a bit of both. So I remember the I'm

778
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: gonna say kind of single handedly. Like one of the

779
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,719
Speaker 2: best pieces of advice I've ever gotten was from my

780
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:36,160
Speaker 2: friend Sue Gillan, And she's a director and she's just

781
00:45:36,320 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 2: awesome and a big goal of hers is to teach

782
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:43,759
Speaker 2: specifically like young women and young queer people how to

783
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: advocate for themselves in business. And she told me basically

784
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: this like people please our hack, where she was like,

785
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,560
Speaker 2: and you don't have to be rude, but when something

786
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: doesn't feel right, you can say that's not a fit,

787
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: that's not a fit for me, Oh I love And

788
00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 2: so you're not saying no, and you're not saying maybe

789
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 2: you are saying something that's undeniable. You're saying that's not

790
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: a fit for me. It's not a critique of what

791
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 2: they're doing, it's it's not a fit for you. That's

792
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,400
Speaker 2: a fact. And I think as I get older and

793
00:46:14,440 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 2: I'm doing business now, and you know, business is a

794
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 2: solo artist that has been so helpful for me. It's like,

795
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 2: I want everyone to feel like I'm valuing their time

796
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 2: and then I'm valuing their input, and sometimes I have

797
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 2: to remember I am the artist, I am the product,

798
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: and it's not a fit for me. And I definitely

799
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:37,879
Speaker 2: do feel that way. You know, when you when you're

800
00:46:37,880 --> 00:46:43,399
Speaker 2: making a music, there are a million tiny decisions all

801
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:49,040
Speaker 2: the time, and you have to practice saying, great idea,

802
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 2: I mean, we're going to do this one though, Yes,

803
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: thank you for bringing that to me. I'm going to

804
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:55,919
Speaker 2: think about it. We're not going to do that right now.

805
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,640
Speaker 2: You're like, you're doing that a hundred times, whether you're

806
00:46:58,680 --> 00:47:01,200
Speaker 2: in the studio or you're out of you and they're

807
00:47:01,239 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: convincing you you don't need a mic for the amp.

808
00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 2: Like you're just constantly finding ways to be kind while

809
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,319
Speaker 2: you're firm. And I've never had to do that more

810
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:13,840
Speaker 2: than right now. Yeah.

811
00:47:13,880 --> 00:47:17,600
Speaker 1: God, that's so. That is such good advice and the

812
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: way you're explaining that makes all the sense in the

813
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: world to me. I had this conversation with my best

814
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 1: friend yesterday and she was like, you've been in this

815
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:30,640
Speaker 1: season where for a long time she's like, you'll try anything,

816
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: you'll show up for anyone, and you have really gotten

817
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 1: good at being like, Nope, that's not for me. I

818
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,799
Speaker 1: tried this, that's not for me. That's not for me,

819
00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: that that's not a fit for me. This is not

820
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 1: something I feel comfortable in terms of clothing. This is

821
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: not a work environment I want to be in because

822
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 1: of energy, you know. And we were talking about how

823
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 1: this really does feel like the first season where it's

824
00:47:51,680 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: not just out of all these options, these are the no's.

825
00:47:55,760 --> 00:47:58,040
Speaker 1: Now it's like, Okay, I've gotten good enough at knowing

826
00:47:58,080 --> 00:48:02,719
Speaker 1: what isn't for me what is, and for you to

827
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 1: be able to talk about using music as a vehicle

828
00:48:06,000 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: what it feels like to say, I can see all

829
00:48:09,320 --> 00:48:11,799
Speaker 1: of these options, but I know what the yes is

830
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 1: for me.

831
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 2: That Oh, that's such an interesting way to frame it,

832
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:19,399
Speaker 2: because I think you're totally right, Like, I really haven't

833
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 2: thought about it in that way. We've I think because

834
00:48:22,680 --> 00:48:28,319
Speaker 2: we get socialized not towards entitlement, right, Like, men get

835
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 2: socialized with entitlement, but everybody else not so much. And

836
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 2: so men are have all of the space in the

837
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,919
Speaker 2: world to instead of figuring out how to kindly say

838
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: no so that they don't get you know, sexually assaulted,

839
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: assaulted or beaten up or dismissed as being hysteric, whatever,

840
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 2: they get to spend their entire lives cultivating their taste.

841
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: And meanwhile, we're cultivating people pleasing mechanisms, right, yes, And

842
00:48:55,040 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: so then when we're when we're talking about like, Okay,

843
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 2: well now I have the tool to s that's not

844
00:49:00,440 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: a fit for me, and I've said that's not a

845
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: fit for me enough, so I've said I kind of

846
00:49:04,920 --> 00:49:06,840
Speaker 2: had to reverse the process where I found all the

847
00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 2: things that weren't a fit. Yeah, you are so right.

848
00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: Right now, I am in a moment where I am

849
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 2: really discovering the things that are a fit. I'm I'm

850
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: having like this weird renaissance where I'm like, I'm finding

851
00:49:21,360 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 2: I'm finding the clothes that I like, and I'm just

852
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 2: spending so much time looking at these clothes and and

853
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,319
Speaker 2: really treating it like an art project. I'm listening to

854
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: albums like kind of religiously like breaking apart all the

855
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 2: tracks to hear what instruments are doing what and what

856
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 2: I like about them. And I'm I'm like having I'm

857
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 2: having what I think a lot of just white boys

858
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:44,319
Speaker 2: get to have just this period where they're like, you know,

859
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 2: we make fun of white guys all the time because

860
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 2: they're like, let me, let me man explain this thing

861
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: to you. I'm in like a fucking man's flind head space.

862
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 2: Everything is gorgeous, everything is art. And it's because I

863
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 2: finally have the space to fine tooth comb everything that

864
00:49:58,520 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: I love instead of spend all my time being like, oh,

865
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 2: thank you so much for having me. I am. I

866
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,439
Speaker 2: am not super comfortable with your hand being there.

867
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: It's finally cultivating what is a firm yes, like a

868
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: whole body.

869
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: Yes.

870
00:50:17,360 --> 00:50:19,719
Speaker 1: One of my other best friends and I just talked

871
00:50:19,719 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: about this and our mantra for this season in our

872
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: life is less people pleasing, more pleasure. Ooh it feels nice,

873
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: doesn't it? Like it feels good in your body?

874
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 2: Yes?

875
00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it makes me feel really really excited.

876
00:50:36,320 --> 00:50:37,840
Speaker 2: About the people. Please myself.

877
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: Okay, exactly me. I'm the people. I'm the one.

878
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 2: I'm also a people.

879
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:58,359
Speaker 1: I love it. Obviously, we're excited about the album and

880
00:50:58,360 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: it's so good.

881
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:00,000
Speaker 2: Thank you.

882
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: What are you the most excited about right now? Is

883
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:07,560
Speaker 1: there a next project, a next goal, something you're curious about,

884
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:14,040
Speaker 1: or is it this season of like cultivation of self relationship.

885
00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 2: I'm really I'm just really lucky right now. I'm really

886
00:51:20,239 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: in a season of being excited about a lot of things.

887
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 2: But also after like self funding a project, I think

888
00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,319
Speaker 2: I've been kind of intrigued by the idea of what

889
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 2: divestment looks like, like in when you're not being paid

890
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 2: by a studio, like a lot of us haven't been

891
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:48,320
Speaker 2: recently because we've been on strike. You have to rethink

892
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 2: the way that you make money. And all of a sudden,

893
00:51:51,640 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 2: I can't explain of it, like I feel taller, Like

894
00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,360
Speaker 2: I don't. I'm I'm having to think about money and

895
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:03,200
Speaker 2: a lot different terms now after this strike and during

896
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,480
Speaker 2: the strike. But I'm not thinking about myself as an

897
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,239
Speaker 2: employee to the studio, and I'm not thinking about like,

898
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:12,399
Speaker 2: you know what, what's the studio thinking about me? Now?

899
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm I'm me, I'm my business. And when

900
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 2: the studio goes away, how am I making money and

901
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 2: how am I existing? And that's that's kind of a

902
00:52:23,840 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 2: fun that's a kind of a fun headspace to be.

903
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 2: It's a little bit scary, but I talk with my

904
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 2: partner a lot about like we've been talking a lot

905
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 2: about what freedom means, and freedom is this constant practice

906
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 2: of It's a constant practice, but it's also a practice

907
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:42,920
Speaker 2: of grief. It's really scary where you're looking at all

908
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: these systems that have made you comfortable before and you're

909
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 2: realizing that in order to be truly free, you have

910
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,919
Speaker 2: to say goodbye to the systems that make you comfortable. Yeah,

911
00:52:51,080 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 2: then you can re enter that system. Like one day

912
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 2: I'll work I'll work on a TV show again. One

913
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 2: day i will shoot a movie. One day I will

914
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 2: go back to the writer's room. Like that, I'm going

915
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 2: to do these things again. That I'm going to do

916
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 2: it knowing that I can survive outside of them, and

917
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: that feels like a whole different phase of my life. Yeah.

918
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 1: Well, to not feel beholden it in a way, it

919
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: takes away their ability to dominate, Yes, because it takes

920
00:53:16,600 --> 00:53:20,880
Speaker 1: away the scarcity terror mm hmm. Yeah, I'm trying to

921
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: figure out what that looks like too, but you you

922
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:23,799
Speaker 1: you know.

923
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 2: I think that it's it's the being you know, in

924
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:32,319
Speaker 2: a negotiation for a show where your team you'll be like,

925
00:53:32,400 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 2: this is my firm number, and will be like, we

926
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:36,480
Speaker 2: have to be read, we have to be okay with

927
00:53:36,560 --> 00:53:41,279
Speaker 2: walking away, and they never mean it. You never mean

928
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 2: it because they're like, please just do it. Yeah. I

929
00:53:44,760 --> 00:53:49,560
Speaker 2: think that the big takeaway for me in the last

930
00:53:49,560 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: couple of years is you have to be comfortable walking away.

931
00:53:52,960 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 2: You actually have to be comfortable walking away from all

932
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,560
Speaker 2: of these things, because only e then are you prioritizing

933
00:53:59,640 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 2: your comfort. And the fact of the matter is is

934
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: that being comfortable walking away it doesn't mean that you're

935
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: gonna have to say no to everything. It means sometimes

936
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 2: that places that would have taken advantage of you are like, Okay,

937
00:54:13,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: I guess we got to respect their rights.

938
00:54:15,440 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, they might have to operate differently.

939
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 2: Exactly if you're ready to walk away, they treat you

940
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:23,040
Speaker 2: with more respect.

941
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: They really do. I quit a job years ago and

942
00:54:26,680 --> 00:54:28,640
Speaker 1: I had a male friend of mine call me up

943
00:54:28,640 --> 00:54:30,480
Speaker 1: and go I've never known an actor to quit a

944
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:33,719
Speaker 1: job ever, And I was like, well, sometimes you have

945
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,320
Speaker 1: to do it, and it really did. It changed everything

946
00:54:37,360 --> 00:54:41,799
Speaker 1: for me moving forward. And I think to your point,

947
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:46,520
Speaker 1: sometimes what you say no to is practice for shaping

948
00:54:46,560 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: your future. Yes, is mm hmmm mm hmm, And I

949
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 1: think that feels really exciting. Do you think when when

950
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:57,759
Speaker 1: you think about going back to, you know, traditional Hollywood

951
00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: jobs like going back to do a film or your

952
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 1: next show or right on a next show, are there

953
00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 1: are there things that from your personal experience as the

954
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 1: human that you are, you would want to see done differently,

955
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:19,360
Speaker 1: particularly for like the queer and trans and non binary

956
00:55:19,400 --> 00:55:25,360
Speaker 1: community within the industry.

957
00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:28,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've got to give this massive credit

958
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: to Grace. I think Grace did a really good job.

959
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 2: The press for the show was that I was the

960
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: first non binary doctor or you know, a person on

961
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,319
Speaker 2: a network series. But in reality, when you watch the show,

962
00:55:45,480 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: I was really just existing, and I was existing in

963
00:55:47,800 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: a really rich way. I had an awesome job, and

964
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:57,600
Speaker 2: I had an awesome partner, and I really, you know,

965
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,080
Speaker 2: I really want to see more queer people. And I'm

966
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,000
Speaker 2: not saying never talk about it. I hate that that's

967
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 2: such a big distinction. I'm just saying I don't want

968
00:56:07,880 --> 00:56:11,719
Speaker 2: every storyline that queer people have to be one of

969
00:56:11,960 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 2: abuse and trauma. I want more of us to just

970
00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,759
Speaker 2: be existing on TV and I want you to see

971
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:20,279
Speaker 2: our love lives and I want you to see all this.

972
00:56:20,400 --> 00:56:22,759
Speaker 2: I want you to see every aspect of us, and

973
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 2: sure trauma can be a part of it, but I

974
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:27,279
Speaker 2: don't want it to be our center. Yeah, and that's

975
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,080
Speaker 2: what I want when I go back, is like I

976
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:34,719
Speaker 2: I often audition for male roles because I'm like, well,

977
00:56:34,719 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 2: I'm a human being and it sounds like this you're

978
00:56:37,239 --> 00:56:39,400
Speaker 2: what you're saying is this this female character is in

979
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:42,520
Speaker 2: love with someone. It actually doesn't have to be a guy. Like,

980
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,680
Speaker 2: that's not what you're talking about. And I think that

981
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: that's a that's going to be a big shift that happens,

982
00:56:48,120 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: like post to strike is I'm going to keep doing

983
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,480
Speaker 2: these things and I'm going to start getting casted in

984
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,920
Speaker 2: roles that they thought they needed a dud for and

985
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:57,080
Speaker 2: you don't. I'm a human being and we don't even

986
00:56:57,120 --> 00:56:58,399
Speaker 2: have to talk about it. I'm justin.

987
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:00,879
Speaker 1: I love that, and I think you're right. I think

988
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: any marginalized group deserves to be represented joyfully existing. Yes,

989
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 1: you know, I worked on a on a TV series

990
00:57:11,719 --> 00:57:16,919
Speaker 1: of the wonderful actress Sky Marshall. You know, beautiful, powerful,

991
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: brilliant black woman. One of the most embodied friends of

992
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,840
Speaker 1: my life. She has inspired me in so many ways,

993
00:57:23,200 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 1: and we talk a lot about this for her community.

994
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 1: She's like, I want to see black joy. It can't

995
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 1: just be about the trauma of my community. And it

996
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:34,440
Speaker 1: really made me reflect a lot, even on a lot

997
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: of the rules I get put up for as a

998
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: SIS woman. I'm like, I don't want it to be

999
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:42,080
Speaker 1: like the woman who came back from her sexual assault.

1000
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,919
Speaker 1: Like enough, Can I just be like a smart woman

1001
00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 1: running a business. That'd be cool and I don't have.

1002
00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 2: To worry about you getting raped. I would really love that.

1003
00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:50,959
Speaker 2: I would really love.

1004
00:57:53,120 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would really really love that.

1005
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 2: What's your dream role?

1006
00:57:57,280 --> 00:57:58,200
Speaker 1: Oh?

1007
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:02,080
Speaker 2: They can be a type or an actual, you know,

1008
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:03,720
Speaker 2: historical figure, but what is it?

1009
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:07,840
Speaker 1: Honestly, and it's it's very funny. I wound up having

1010
00:58:07,880 --> 00:58:10,200
Speaker 1: what a weird thing our lives are? I wound up.

1011
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:13,760
Speaker 1: I did James Cordon with Aaron Sorkin to promote my

1012
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 1: last show premiering, and I just think Aaron Sorkin's one

1013
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 1: of the smartest writers in the world. And I loved

1014
00:58:19,080 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: the West Wing with my entire being and the number

1015
00:58:21,680 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 1: of people in my life that are like, you should

1016
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: do the West Wing and you should be the president,

1017
00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 1: like bring that show back, and I'm like, yeah, I

1018
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,360
Speaker 1: would love to do that, Like that would be a

1019
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: dream role for me.

1020
00:58:31,520 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 2: That would be to your point to go.

1021
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: And flip the expectation of who serves that role on

1022
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:42,160
Speaker 1: its head, and and yeah, to talk about the sort

1023
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: of human people affected by policy. I would I would

1024
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,520
Speaker 1: love as a policy nerd. I would really get off

1025
00:58:50,560 --> 00:58:51,120
Speaker 1: on that.

1026
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 2: That's cool. It's huh, that's a good idea.

1027
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:55,200
Speaker 1: So you know, maybe maybe that.

1028
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 2: But then also like.

1029
00:58:57,800 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 1: I mean, hello, sir. Also, you know, Dead to Me

1030
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:02,120
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite shows I've ever seen in

1031
00:59:02,120 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 1: my life. I thought, you know that Linda Cardelini and

1032
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:08,240
Speaker 1: Christina Applegate were so brilliant on that show, and I

1033
00:59:08,320 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: loved watching this show.

1034
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:11,840
Speaker 2: I know that you're Italian because of how easy both

1035
00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:13,640
Speaker 2: of those names just were like about it.

1036
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, they just roll right out. Like That's also the

1037
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,680
Speaker 1: kind of show I would love to go and do.

1038
00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: And then my favorite thing to watch is Lisa Ling

1039
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: doing Our America And I'm like, should I just go

1040
00:59:26,000 --> 00:59:28,880
Speaker 1: host a documentary series like I don't know the possibilities

1041
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 1: in this moment feel endless, but I.

1042
00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:32,600
Speaker 2: Feel you're vast.

1043
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,000
Speaker 1: We're vast people, Henny.

1044
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 2: Mm hmm, yeah, cool. I can see in all of

1045
00:59:40,400 --> 00:59:42,720
Speaker 2: those not I'm president.

1046
00:59:44,120 --> 00:59:49,280
Speaker 1: Sure, you know, let's go. Okay, tell the people what's

1047
00:59:49,280 --> 00:59:53,360
Speaker 1: coming next, where to find the EP, and what else

1048
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 1: do you want them to know?

1049
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:58,600
Speaker 2: This EP is going to come out on ten twenty,

1050
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 2: that's October twenty. It. The EP is called Violence. I

1051
01:00:02,520 --> 01:00:06,000
Speaker 2: think it's really fun. It's five songs, it's corny as hell.

1052
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: You can get it anywhere music is streamed and if

1053
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,280
Speaker 2: you're in LA. I got to show at gold Diggers

1054
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 2: on eleven eleven one, November first to celebrate the EP.

1055
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,000
Speaker 2: Drap I'm coming. You have to be there.

1056
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: You have RSVP me Now, I'm ready.

1057
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: You're on the list.

1058
01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,160
Speaker 1: Okay, I can't wait. I'm ready, And I have a

1059
01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:26,040
Speaker 1: final question for you. I literally want to talk to

1060
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: you all day, but then I realize we'll just have dinner.

1061
01:00:28,640 --> 01:00:31,720
Speaker 1: But my final question for this podcast for you is

1062
01:00:32,440 --> 01:00:36,240
Speaker 1: what in your life at current feels like your work

1063
01:00:36,240 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 1: in progress?

1064
01:00:38,600 --> 01:00:42,080
Speaker 2: Oh, the thing in my life right now that feels

1065
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: like my work in progress is really really being kind

1066
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:56,440
Speaker 2: about my mental health and and I you know, I've

1067
01:00:56,480 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 2: talked about this a little bit before, but I'm had

1068
01:01:00,160 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 2: such a fear of maybe being like too depressive a person,

1069
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 2: or you know, being too moody or blah blah blah.

1070
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,080
Speaker 2: And now I'm really just trying to be kind to

1071
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 2: myself like I would to a lover or a friend

1072
01:01:13,280 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: and saying, emotions are passing through me. And I use

1073
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 2: a lot of my emotions for my creativity, and actually,

1074
01:01:19,400 --> 01:01:24,120
Speaker 2: emotions are the most beautiful thing about the human experience.

1075
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:27,120
Speaker 2: And so my work in progress is accepting my brain

1076
01:01:27,160 --> 01:01:30,240
Speaker 2: for exactly what it is and being really grateful for it.

1077
01:01:31,600 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: I love that. Thank you.

1078
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:34,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1079
01:01:34,560 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 1: Being willing to witness yourself the way you witness the

1080
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:41,720
Speaker 1: people you love is that's a big, big shift.

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01:01:42,040 --> 01:01:43,920
Speaker 2: You made. That so nice. I'm put that on a

1082
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:49,520
Speaker 2: shirt you made That's so crispy. God damn, we.

1083
01:01:49,440 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 1: Make sure it's I'm ready. I love it. I love some.

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01:01:52,160 --> 01:01:54,520
Speaker 1: I love some specific to like a friend group.

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01:01:54,640 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 2: Merch. Oh, we should have merch.

1086
01:01:57,600 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should have merch.

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01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:03,919
Speaker 2: Bush Master bush Master. Yah.

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01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:11,000
Speaker 1: Honestly, it's the gayest thing I've ever heard of. Let's

1089
01:02:11,040 --> 01:02:15,320
Speaker 1: go National coming out Day. Everyone else from the bush

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01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,680
Speaker 1: Masters from us, thank you for coming.

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01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 2: This is so fun. Thank you for having me.