1 00:00:03,200 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told You from how Stop 2 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:14,280 Speaker 1: works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 3 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: Kristin and I'm Caroline, and today we're talking about widowhood 4 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:22,040 Speaker 1: by the request of a listener who herself is a widow. 5 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: She's a younger widow, and if memory serves, she is 6 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,640 Speaker 1: actually a war widow. And we decided to look into 7 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: this topic because even though it's something I don't feel 8 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: like we talk about very often at all, it exists. 9 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: There are there are many widows and widowers. This is 10 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: an issue that's never going to go away, right and 11 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: it reading reading about widowhood, the stats and hearing are 12 00:00:46,479 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: reading first person accounts from widows and widowers about how 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: society kind of reacts to them reminded me a little 14 00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: bit of the way that parents talk about miscarriage, in 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:01,840 Speaker 1: that nobody really knows what to say to someone who 16 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: has lost a spouse, and that can leave a lot 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: of people feeling really isolated, resentful, misunderstood. You know, a 18 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: lot of times people like things that Kristen I were 19 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 1: reading um widows and widowers were saying, oh, well, I 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: guess I'm just supposed to be over it because nobody 21 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 1: wants to hear it anymore. And so we started digging 22 00:01:19,880 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: into this topic and found that a lot of that 23 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: sort of setting apart of people who have lost a 24 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: spouse goes way way back. In fact, the word widow 25 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: comes from the Latin word that means to set apart. Yeah, 26 00:01:35,319 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 1: and and even today, the expectations for how a widow 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: in particular should act is largely dictated to by social 28 00:01:44,760 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: customs where you're living. It varies widely around the world. 29 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: Um So, just for some numbers. In the United States, 30 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: as of September two thirteen, fourteen percent of unmarried Americans 31 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: eighteen and older we're widowed. And this includes both men 32 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: and women, right, And if you look at the age breakdown, 33 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: because we tend to think of widows as older women, 34 00:02:06,960 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: and that's certainly not solely the case. A third of 35 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: women who have become widowed are younger than sixty and 36 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,720 Speaker 1: half of all women who will become widowed becomes so 37 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: by the age of sixty five. And that's according to 38 00:02:20,200 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: the Women's Institute for a Secure Retirement. And you might think, 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: why is a women's retirement site talking about widowhood, And 40 00:02:27,080 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 1: it's because, as we'll talk about in a second. Widows 41 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: face a lot of financial problems for for various reasons. 42 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: Um but in two thousand nine alone, over fifty five 43 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: thousand people thirty four and younger in the US were widowed. Yeah, 44 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 1: and that's exactly like the stuff I've never told you 45 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:50,359 Speaker 1: listener who requested this episode. So looking outside of the 46 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,919 Speaker 1: United States were more of a global perspective. There was 47 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: a two thousand u N report finding that widows comprised 48 00:02:57,720 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: around the world, uh anywhere from seven to sixteen percent 49 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,040 Speaker 1: of all adult women. There was also a two thousand 50 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: ten study out of the Loomba Foundation which estimated the 51 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: number of widows around the world to be two hundred 52 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: and forty five millions. So this is, you know, a 53 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 1: massive number to state the obvious right. In India interestingly 54 00:03:19,919 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: has the largest number of widows recorded in the world. 55 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: That amounts to about thirty three million women, or ten 56 00:03:26,760 --> 00:03:30,239 Speaker 1: percent of the female population in India, compared to only 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: three percent of men. But only ten percent of those 58 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: widows in India remarry, which again, stay tuned, We're going 59 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: to talk a lot about remarriage, and we also to 60 00:03:41,720 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: have to talk about widowhood in this current era of warfare. 61 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: If you look at areas like Iraq and Afghanistan, widowhood 62 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 1: is a massive social problem because a lot of these 63 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: women are sent into poverty after they lose their husbands 64 00:03:57,080 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: as casualties of war. So, for instance, uh the New 65 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 1: York Times reported that in Iraq, one and eleven women 66 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: between the ages of fifteen and eighty are widowed, and 67 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: the United Nations estimated that in two thousand six, at 68 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: the height of sectarian violence in Iraq, an estimated women 69 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:20,600 Speaker 1: became widows every day during that violence. And then if 70 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,480 Speaker 1: you look in Afghanistan, the United Nations estimates that there 71 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: are up to two million widows living there, and there 72 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: is an article on this published by p r I 73 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 1: talking about how the widow's life often ends up becoming 74 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: focused on begging, prostitution and trafficking and trying to find 75 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: labor somewhere, but often dealing with issues of exploitation. And 76 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: then you know, if you look at the Syrian conflict 77 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,480 Speaker 1: happening to this is also a massive problem. I mean, 78 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: estimates are that there have been now up to one 79 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,600 Speaker 1: fifty thousand casualties from that conflict in sea area, and 80 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: it's left a lot of women widowed, a lot of 81 00:05:04,480 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: kids without fathers, and this is a huge problem. And 82 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:11,560 Speaker 1: you have there's actually something called the street of Widows 83 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,960 Speaker 1: in a refugee camp in Jordan's just because of how 84 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: many you know, women and children have had to flee 85 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 1: there after their husbands have been killed. Right, And that 86 00:05:20,839 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 1: leaves whatever part of the world you come from, a 87 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 1: lot of times when you're widowed, that leaves the woman 88 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: in a really precarious financial situation because a lot of 89 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: the times the man is the sole breadwinner for the family, 90 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: providing all of the money and supplies for both the 91 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: wife and the kids. Um And in general, if we're 92 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: looking specifically though back in the West and in America 93 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: in particular, as women in general age, they become more 94 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 1: vulnerable to poverty. Part of that is that we're outliving 95 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 1: our husbands. Part of that is that maybe we're not 96 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: making strong enough financial decisions when we're younger. Um and 97 00:05:56,680 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: that group Wiser points out that nearly a third of 98 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 1: single women over age seventy are living in poverty. And 99 00:06:03,520 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: it's worse for older widows. If women become widowed after 100 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: age sixty, they're usually in a worse financial situation unless 101 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:15,479 Speaker 1: they happen to have substantial savings, pensions, or life insurance. 102 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: But those are all choices that they would have made 103 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 1: long before their spouse died. Yeah, and globally, these kinds 104 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,080 Speaker 1: of burdens are worse for women in developing countries. This 105 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 1: is an issue that the United Nations and nonprofit organizations 106 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 1: and NGOs have really looked into, because again going back 107 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: to that two thousand and ten study out of the 108 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,120 Speaker 1: Lumba Foundation, of those two five million women around the 109 00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: world that they estimate are widows, one hundred and fifteen 110 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: million of them are destitute. And the conditions are worse, 111 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 1: they say, in areas like the Middle East where we're 112 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:56,280 Speaker 1: having so many women who are widowed due to warfare, 113 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: or in Sub Saharan Africa where widows are more traditionally 114 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: a and and by their husband's family. Or the issue 115 00:07:02,680 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: of child widows, and we talked about child brides before 116 00:07:05,800 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: on the podcast, and in Bangladesh, for instance, child widows 117 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: between the ages seven and seventeen aren't uncommon, but when 118 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: they become widows, they're often kicked out of school, they're isolated. 119 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: It's the same kinds of issues happening over and over again, right, 120 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:23,920 Speaker 1: because we pointed out earlier that only ten percent of 121 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,520 Speaker 1: widows in India remarry, for instance, and a lot of 122 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: that does have to do with the view of widows 123 00:07:28,720 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: that they are somehow tainted, there's somehow like a poisonous 124 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: plague on society that and they have to be cast out. Um. 125 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: Thousands of widows in India, many of whom are uneducated 126 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: and unskilled, end up being disowned by their relatives, even 127 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 1: whether it's their own or their husbands. And they get 128 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,840 Speaker 1: thrown out of their own homes because of land and 129 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,560 Speaker 1: inheritance disputes. And not only that, but they tend to 130 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: face physical and sexual abuse by relatives or end up 131 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: migrating to cities to basically live on the streets and 132 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:01,760 Speaker 1: beg for money. Yeah, and we should note that there 133 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: used to be a Hindu tradition of widows throwing themselves 134 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: on their dead husband's funeral pyres and and that was 135 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: outlawed in the nineteenth century. Um. But in the same way, 136 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 1: it's like they're almost symbolically thrown on these pyres. Because 137 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: for instance, there's this place called Vrindavan. It's a popular 138 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: Hindu pilgrimage Center, and it's also become known as the 139 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: City of Widows because it's become this place where around 140 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 1: twenty thousand widows at a time are are flocking to 141 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: this place because there's so many tourists and and you know, 142 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: religious pilgrims who are going there that they can sustain 143 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: themselves on like food offerings or uh, you know, like 144 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:47,199 Speaker 1: financial offerings that they might be able to beg for um. 145 00:08:47,559 --> 00:08:50,920 Speaker 1: But it's there there's no social structure in place to 146 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:54,680 Speaker 1: take care of these women, right exactly. Um. And that's 147 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,920 Speaker 1: I mean, that's something that we've seen historically as far 148 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: as widows oftentimes have ing to kind of band together 149 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 1: to even be able to survive. But then you have example, 150 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: other examples international examples of for instance, widows in Molly 151 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: having basically passing down their poverty to their children. Because 152 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: once you're a widow and you're abandoned by your peers 153 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 1: or your family, it's hard to break out of that 154 00:09:18,440 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: cycle of poverty. And if you look at West Africa, 155 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 1: the Igbo culture, those widows they're suffer a disproportionate amount 156 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:31,600 Speaker 1: of ritual cleansing compared to widowers um. And basically anyone 157 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 1: who fails to fulfill the requirements of the rituals risks 158 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,719 Speaker 1: social exclusion, and it's this whole list of things that 159 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: they face. They have to wear rags, or they have 160 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: to drink dirty water, things like that. But the most 161 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:48,079 Speaker 1: common UH ritual cleansing thing is scraping the widow's hair. 162 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 1: UH Usually the deceased husband's female relatives will scrape off 163 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 1: the widows body hair. And we should note that that 164 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: some of these traditions are in place because of beliefs 165 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:04,040 Speaker 1: about the ritual cleansing being part of sort of excommunicating 166 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: this woman from her husband's spirits so that he won't 167 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: come back and hunter. But obviously there's a lot of 168 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,880 Speaker 1: brutality that goes into that and UM in some countries 169 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:18,360 Speaker 1: such as Ghana and Kenya, certain cultures there will also 170 00:10:18,440 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: include cleansing sex, wherein the widow will be forced to 171 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: have sex with either a brother in law or even 172 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,839 Speaker 1: the first like male stranger that she encounters as a 173 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: part of these cleansing traditions. And so there have been 174 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 1: some laws that have been enacted in these areas to 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: put a stop to it. And obviously there are you know, 176 00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:43,679 Speaker 1: nonprofits that are working to sort of re educate people 177 00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:48,680 Speaker 1: on these kinds of mourning practices, but it's definitely something 178 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: that is still happening, right. And what I found kind 179 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: of both interesting and tragic about all this, which we 180 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,160 Speaker 1: kind of mentioned earlier, is just the fact that a 181 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,199 Speaker 1: lot of the way that widows are treated today has 182 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: so much to do with the way that we have 183 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: historically treated them. And there was this great book. It 184 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: was basically a compilation of chapters on widowhood by various authors, 185 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:15,760 Speaker 1: and it was edited by Jon Bremer and Laurence van 186 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,040 Speaker 1: den Bosch. It's called Between Poverty and the Pire Moments 187 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: in the History of Widowhood, and it had this incredible 188 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: rundown of basically the history of how widows are viewed 189 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: and treated. Um they've always been considered a marginal group. 190 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:33,520 Speaker 1: That is nothing new. People have never quite known how 191 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: to treat widows. Like I said earlier, the Latin term 192 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: for widow comes from the word meaning to place apart, 193 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 1: but the word for widower really didn't come around until 194 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:49,559 Speaker 1: much later. There is no masculine term in Latin or 195 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,080 Speaker 1: Greek to match the term, and in Anglo Saxon languages, 196 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: a masculine form didn't appear until the late fourteenth century. Yeah, 197 00:11:56,920 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: And so Bremer and Van den Bosch arise that the 198 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: reason why you have widowerhood having such a shorter linguistic 199 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: history is that the very concept of widowhood affects male 200 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: identity much less than widowhood has on female identity. And 201 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,079 Speaker 1: that's also a big reason why we're focusing more on 202 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: widows as opposed to widowers in this episode, because a 203 00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: lot of times widowhood doesn't I mean not to say 204 00:12:25,559 --> 00:12:29,400 Speaker 1: that that men historically and today don't grieve and feel 205 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 1: a massive loss, but socially speaking, it's not as much 206 00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: of a blow for them, right, And Brimmer and vanden 207 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:41,720 Speaker 1: Bosch point out that because widows are sort of considered 208 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: this marginal group, that's probably why they haven't received very 209 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: much attention. Um and unlike widowers, their lives have been 210 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 1: controlled by so many rules, both social and legal. Really. Yeah, 211 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,839 Speaker 1: And another thing they point out too, is how a 212 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 1: lot of times when you read a out widows historically 213 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 1: or kind of think of them as a group, they're 214 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 1: either framed as the poor widow or the super wealthy, 215 00:13:09,480 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: privileged widow who doesn't have to deal with all of 216 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: this other awful stuff that the poor widows have to 217 00:13:14,679 --> 00:13:17,559 Speaker 1: deal with. But they say, in reality, you find widows 218 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,080 Speaker 1: among all social strata. But the fact that we really 219 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 1: only hear about them kind of on the margins is 220 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: yet more evidence of how they're often overlooked even by scholars. 221 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: And how widows are defined really depends on what country 222 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:33,920 Speaker 1: you're in, and then what country you're in, that depends 223 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 1: on what culture in that country you're talking about. In 224 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,160 Speaker 1: ancient Assyria, for instance, the term was reserved for previously 225 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,880 Speaker 1: married woman who had no male protection or means of 226 00:13:43,920 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: financial support. Basically, you were only a widow if your 227 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: husband and your father in law were dead and you 228 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:53,079 Speaker 1: had no sons, So that was like a pretty pretty 229 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: high bar to to constitute being a widow then, you know. 230 00:13:57,720 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: Kristen mentioned that the separation between the war classes and 231 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: the upper classes as far as widowhood is concerned, and 232 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: Roman upper class widows were able to live quite comfortably, 233 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 1: But that whole ideal in the Roman culture of the 234 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: woman who had been married only once really could only 235 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,599 Speaker 1: be an upper class phenomenon because that meant that you 236 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: had enough money or your family had enough money to 237 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,960 Speaker 1: let you maintain that ideal of like the chaste never 238 00:14:26,080 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: remarried widow, right, because if you're looking into the history 239 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: of widowhood, you're looking at the role of these women 240 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: who don't have, you know, male financial support, which would 241 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: have been crucial in these times when women were really 242 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 1: relegated to just looking over domestic affairs. Their roles were 243 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:49,120 Speaker 1: to be housewives and mothers. And so if they are 244 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:53,160 Speaker 1: not either, and yet they are older than what are 245 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,400 Speaker 1: they gonna do? So one answer to that question mark 246 00:14:56,440 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: of whoa, what do we do with widows? They can't 247 00:14:59,240 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: be there wives anymore, their kids are grown up? What 248 00:15:02,200 --> 00:15:03,800 Speaker 1: do we do? That's when you see a lot of 249 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,480 Speaker 1: tie ins with religions where widows are almost kind of 250 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: analogous to how you have devout virgins. In some religions 251 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: you have the rise of the the the chaste widow 252 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: who sort of upheld in society as a woman set apart. Right, 253 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 1: But people have these stereotypes, always have, probably always will 254 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 1: about where women who aren't confined to safe, normal marriage, 255 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:34,960 Speaker 1: where those women fit. And in ancient Israel for instance, uh, 256 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: you know, as far as speaking about ideals, you know, 257 00:15:38,120 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: the the ideal Roman widow never remarried. Well, the ideal 258 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: widow in ancient Israel was one who was solitary and chased. 259 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: You know, she probably stayed at home by herself all day, 260 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: just praying, but more popular imagery associated her with loose morals. 261 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: So what does that say that we we we want 262 00:15:58,560 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: you as the widow to stay home and just meditate 263 00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: on your husband's memory, but in reality we probably think 264 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: you're sleeping around and we don't like you for it. Well, 265 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,800 Speaker 1: it's that fear of that that Bremer and Van and 266 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 1: Bosh talk about in the book. It's this cultural fear 267 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: of the widow because we know that since she was married, 268 00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: there was a very good chance that she consummated that 269 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:25,360 Speaker 1: marriage and has had knowledge of sexual relations before. And 270 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:28,080 Speaker 1: so they talked about how this sort of cast the 271 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 1: widow as this woman in between because she's not a virgin, 272 00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 1: she can't be. She'll never be entirely chased because of that. 273 00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,160 Speaker 1: And one example that they give of this is in Islam, 274 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: how Mohammed's first wife as a widow, but his daughter 275 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:49,680 Speaker 1: is upheld as the you know exemplar you know female 276 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: in the religion because his wife would have already you know, 277 00:16:54,880 --> 00:16:58,040 Speaker 1: been she she had already done it, done it. To 278 00:16:58,160 --> 00:17:03,760 Speaker 1: put it not very eloquent. Well, um, I mean speaking 279 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 1: of of class divides and being impure and whatnot. I mean, 280 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: even among the upper casts in India, Hindu widows did 281 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 1: not get reincorporated into society because they were considered in pures. 282 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: So you're sort of just screwed on so many levels 283 00:17:21,640 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: and all of these different cultures. And again speaking of class, 284 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: if we look toward Dutch culture in the eighteenth and 285 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:33,520 Speaker 1: nineteenth centuries, for instance, widows from the nobility had a 286 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: much different experience than those of the lower classes, who 287 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: were considered to be among unfortunate persons, a group that 288 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: also included orphans on the chronically ill. They ended up 289 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: receiving a lot of benefits, social benefits, financial help, that 290 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: kind of thing. But it was only because they widows 291 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: were somehow classed with like really sick, unfortunate people who 292 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 1: couldn't care for themselves and were a burden to society. Well, 293 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: because in a lot of ways, it did put you 294 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 1: in that position of not being able to care so 295 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:06,640 Speaker 1: well for yourself because unlike a widower who probably had 296 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 1: a trade and would continue working in that trade, regardless 297 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: of whether or not his wife was alive. Widows would 298 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 1: have to find some other means of financial support, and 299 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 1: Bremer and Van and Bush do note that there were 300 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 1: some guilds that had special allowances for widows. Uh that 301 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,600 Speaker 1: you see widows entering into more traditionally masculine like labor 302 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:32,280 Speaker 1: fields in certain areas, But by and large, yeah, a 303 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,480 Speaker 1: lot of times unless unless you are a wealthy widow, 304 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: a merry widow, as they're sometimes stereotyped you, Uh, it's 305 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,959 Speaker 1: a it's a tough road to hoe, and a lot 306 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,000 Speaker 1: of these times, you know, you didn't even have a 307 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: chance to get out from under being viewed as an 308 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,320 Speaker 1: unfortunate widow because there were things like morning dress which 309 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: completely separated women from the rest of society. Um early 310 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: Christian morning dress was was such that it basically defeminine 311 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: as to widows and Hindu women in some Brahmin casts, 312 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,880 Speaker 1: which are the upper upper class casts, had to shave 313 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 1: their heads, so they were again kind of separated. But 314 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 1: what's interesting to see is that if you look outside 315 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 1: of traditionally monogamous cultures into say some Polynesian cultures, widows 316 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: are afforded a lot more freedom for instance, in some 317 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 1: of these Polynesian cultures, widows are really seen is no 318 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: different than other women. But it's notable that in these cultures, uh, 319 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: it's not expected that men and women will only have 320 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 1: sex with like one monogamous partner for the rest of 321 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: their lives. Um, And so widows, divorced women and even 322 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: younger unmarried women are all, you know, having sex and 323 00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: it's not looked down upon. Yeah, I mean, if sex 324 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: is seen as a normal, healthy thing that consenting adults 325 00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: engage in, which my my, imagine that, Caroline. But if 326 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: if sex is viewed as a normal activity for everyone, 327 00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 1: including women, imagine that as well. Um, and monogamy is 328 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,880 Speaker 1: really not expected of anyone, then that's one less thing 329 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,960 Speaker 1: that you have to look down on someone for, you know, 330 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,080 Speaker 1: and so they have a little bit more flexibility in 331 00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 1: in bouncing back, so to speak, from being widowed. Well, 332 00:20:21,520 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: speaking of widowhood and sex, let's talk about remarriage, because 333 00:20:26,640 --> 00:20:28,879 Speaker 1: you would assume I would kind of assume that reading 334 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 1: about how you know, societies have sort of traditionally viewed 335 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,879 Speaker 1: widows with uh, you know, a little bit of trepidation 336 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 1: because they're not entirely sure. I would assume that there 337 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,880 Speaker 1: would be a super high remarriage rate for widows because 338 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 1: she's like, oh, well, you know, just get her married again, 339 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 1: get her back into her proper social role. And for instance, 340 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: in Islam, widows remarriage is encouraged. Um, But you don't 341 00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: actually see these kinds of Even if remarriage is encouraged, 342 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:04,879 Speaker 1: when you look at the actual statistics, it's not so common. 343 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: And we mentioned how in India, you know, only ten 344 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: percent of widows get remarried. In ancient Israel, the ideal 345 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: widow was someone who was chased and didn't remarry. So 346 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 1: the attitude generally historically about widows remarrying has kind of 347 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 1: been like, okay, well, if you have to, that's that's 348 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,000 Speaker 1: good because then you'll be married and if you have 349 00:21:27,080 --> 00:21:32,280 Speaker 1: any sexual activity it will be confined to marriage. But honestly, 350 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: saying chased would earn you more respect, particularly in Hebrew 351 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 1: and early Christian societies, because you know, they said remarriage 352 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 1: is better than sleeping around, especially if you're young. Because 353 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: kind of people look at young widows is like, well 354 00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 1: we don't want to you know, have you sleep around? 355 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: We should probably get you remarried to someone. Um, but 356 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 1: when you that's sometimes that's only possible for upper class women. 357 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,160 Speaker 1: If you look at China during the Ching period, which 358 00:21:56,240 --> 00:22:02,040 Speaker 1: was sixteen ve elite women widowed before age thirty were 359 00:22:02,119 --> 00:22:06,399 Speaker 1: honored as exemplary if they remained chased until fifty. And again, 360 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: like we said before, I mean sometimes that is only 361 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 1: possible if you're part of that elite class, if you 362 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,399 Speaker 1: have enough money and social standing to be able to 363 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 1: not remarry. And the pattern of widowers being far likelier 364 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,879 Speaker 1: to remarry than widows is not a new phenomenon. If 365 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: you look, for instance, at eighteenth century France, of widowers 366 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: in their twenties remarried compared to sixty percent of widows 367 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: in that age group. Um. And then if you move 368 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:39,240 Speaker 1: up to widowers and widows in their forties, of the 369 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: men get remarried compared to just of the women. So 370 00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: it's clear that like the older you get, the wider 371 00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: that gap grows. It's the same in Dutch society in 372 00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century you have three times as many widows 373 00:22:53,560 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: as widowers. But why why was widowerhood such a less 374 00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: permanent situation than widowhood. They're all these theories on age. 375 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: You know, women of appropriate marrying age, young pretty things 376 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,880 Speaker 1: were we're drying up. Basically, Uh, you have theories about 377 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: women outliving men, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, but women in Western 378 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: Europe really didn't start outliving men until relatively recently. Instead, 379 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,119 Speaker 1: the author's posit, we have these issues of gender norms 380 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 1: and ideals, power relations behind people of different ages, and 381 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: sexual division of labor that influenced the frequency of remarriage 382 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: and whether it's even proper. Yeah, I mean, I think 383 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:40,680 Speaker 1: that all of that relates a lot back to a 384 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,639 Speaker 1: sexual double standard, wherein you know, like after it is 385 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 1: known that a woman has sex, especially back more in 386 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: in these historic days when we're closer to the era 387 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 1: of you know, women very much as second class citizens 388 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: and treated as property in marital arrangements, because you have 389 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: to remember that getting married for love is a much 390 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: newer phenomenon. This wasn't coming about until like the eighteenth 391 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: and nineteenth centuries with the Industrial Revolution, and so you know, 392 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,159 Speaker 1: if women are being considered property, then of course a 393 00:24:14,200 --> 00:24:17,120 Speaker 1: widow is going to be considered quote unquote damaged goods 394 00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,640 Speaker 1: as opposed to a widower who he's just another guy. 395 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:25,239 Speaker 1: Right now, Kristen mentioned as far as property goes um, 396 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: she mentioned the guilds in Dutch society that sort of 397 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: helps support widows of various classes, and sometimes looking at 398 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 1: those professional groups, especially if you move over to France 399 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: and England, a lot of times women would end up 400 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: entering some of those professions in their husbands places. But 401 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,640 Speaker 1: something interesting happens with gender identity. UM. Women who were 402 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: reclassified as basically honorary men when they took over for 403 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: their husbands in their various professions or businesses or whatever, 404 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,880 Speaker 1: we're essentially flouting their female identity, and so you could 405 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: argue that maybe that even makes them less remarriageable in 406 00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: a way, and in addition to perhaps taking over their 407 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:13,960 Speaker 1: husband's jobs in some cases you and this is something 408 00:25:14,000 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 1: that you'd still see today. In eighteenth century France, it 409 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: was again very common for widows and spinsters all that word, 410 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,879 Speaker 1: to be living together in order to share chores, the 411 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,399 Speaker 1: cost of housing and also provides some sort of family 412 00:25:30,560 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: unit for each other. There. There these it was very 413 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: uncommon for women to be living on their own away 414 00:25:38,320 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: from a father or a brother who had some financial means, 415 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: or a husband, and so that marginalizes them if it's 416 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: a bunch of women folk living together cat ladies, right. Well, 417 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: it also marginalized them too, And this is this is 418 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: pretty obvious. I would think when a lot of women 419 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: are faced with Okay, I have no man to care 420 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,320 Speaker 1: for me or provide for me, but I have to 421 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: put food in my kid's mouth, a lot of them 422 00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: would choose basically turn to professions that marginalize them themselves, 423 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,640 Speaker 1: whether that's prostitution or theft. Because, um, in eighteenth century France, 424 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,480 Speaker 1: in Britain, you have a lot of widows in the 425 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: judicial record for prostitution and theft, and why is that 426 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: They kind of have to do whatever they can to 427 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:25,399 Speaker 1: feed their families. So the question then is clearly the 428 00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,719 Speaker 1: history of widows is one of marginalization unless you're an 429 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 1: upper class woman. But even if you're an upper class woman, 430 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: there's still all these social rules for how long you 431 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,159 Speaker 1: have to be in mourning, whether or not you know 432 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: you you have to be perceived as chased, or whether 433 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,399 Speaker 1: you can remarry. It's really not up to you what 434 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:48,200 Speaker 1: happens with your life. So the question is that was 435 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: what life was like for widows then? And we've talked 436 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:55,440 Speaker 1: some about how you still see roots of those traditions 437 00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: still in developing nations. But what about today in the 438 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: West more what what what is it like for widows? 439 00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 1: And we'll talk more to about widowers when we come 440 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: right back from a quick break. So one thing that 441 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: was never discussed in ancient Assyria as far as widows go, 442 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: was something called the widowhood effect. This gets a lot 443 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: of attention now from psychologists, from doctors who have noticed 444 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: that spouses who are left behind face a huge number 445 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: of both mental and physical, a lot of emotional too, uh, 446 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: problems after their spouse dies. It's it's more than just 447 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,440 Speaker 1: the depression that you would expect when your spouse passes away. 448 00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: There's a lot of different effects that you can face. 449 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 1: And Harvard did a study in November um which looked 450 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: at data from a University of Michigan Health and retirement 451 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: study following more than twelve thousand people over the age 452 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 1: of fifty for ten years, kind of looking at their 453 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 1: relationships as they aged and what happened after a spouse dies, 454 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,640 Speaker 1: and they found for this widowhood effect quote unquote widowhood 455 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 1: effect that when a spouse died, the surviving spouse faced 456 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,359 Speaker 1: a higher risk of dying over the next few months 457 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: as well. That's pretty scary. Actually, um. They found out 458 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: widows and widowers both were more likely to die than 459 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: people whose spouses were still living. On average, that effect 460 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 1: was strongest during the first couple of months after spouse's death, 461 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 1: during which time they had a sixty six percent increased 462 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: chance of dying. And the authors point out, Okay, well, 463 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: this could be a grief related thing, or it could 464 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 1: actually be a physical thing that when you've been caring 465 00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 1: for a sick and dying spouse, you just haven't taken 466 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,560 Speaker 1: care of yourself, and after they pass, maybe you just 467 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,800 Speaker 1: don't even want to. Yeah. I mean, it's this whole 468 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: idea of whether you can die from a broken heart, 469 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: and this research suggests that, in a way, you kind 470 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: of can. There was a ad published in the journal 471 00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: Demography in two thousand nine looking at that issue of 472 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 1: perhaps the spouses that have been left behind, who haven't 473 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: been taking care of themselves so much, because if they've 474 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:17,720 Speaker 1: been really caring and also grieving for the loss sometimes gradual, 475 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: sometimes more acute, of a spouse, they have probably been 476 00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,479 Speaker 1: looking or overlooking excuse me, their own health care needs. 477 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: And this is a more pertinent issue too, they found 478 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: for widowers. So they found that men who have lost 479 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 1: a spouse suffer more from a decline in their quality 480 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 1: of informal care kind of taking care of themselves on 481 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 1: the day to day, also coordinating between formal and informal care, 482 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,880 Speaker 1: so making sure they get to their routine doctor's visits, 483 00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,520 Speaker 1: and also make sure that they're brushing their teeth two 484 00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: times a day, all three times a day after a 485 00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 1: particularly garlicy lunch. Um. And also they suffer from a 486 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: decline in advocating and communicating in medical settings. And this 487 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,280 Speaker 1: kind of points to I mean, this is also very heteronormative, 488 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:07,200 Speaker 1: uh finding, because it's looking at male female relationships obviously, 489 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: but they think that this really illustrates women's centrality in 490 00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: that what's termed the household production of health. It's often 491 00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: the wife looking after the dad. This makes me think 492 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:25,920 Speaker 1: of Caroline, how my parents, who have been married decades, 493 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: My mother still makes my father's sandwiches, Like, I don't 494 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: know what he would do if she Honestly, if she 495 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 1: dies before my father, I don't know what he would do. 496 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: When my grandmother died, my grandfather didn't know how to 497 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:45,960 Speaker 1: work the oven or the microwave anything he was at 498 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: a loss um. Another thing that you know scholars who 499 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 1: study these basically divisions of well household labor, but also 500 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,200 Speaker 1: household roles, gender roles. One thing that they point to 501 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: a lot of times is that the wife typically heads 502 00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: up the social calendar. It's the woman who tends to 503 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 1: reach out and have more social connections, dragging as in 504 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:14,040 Speaker 1: my parents case, dragging the begrudging men along to the 505 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,400 Speaker 1: block party with her. But it tends to be um 506 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:20,480 Speaker 1: and not that this applies to everyone, but then it 507 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: tends to be the man who makes more money controls 508 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 1: more of the finances, so woman cruise director, man head 509 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: of finances. So when they were looking at couples who 510 00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: have this particular divide of labor, they found that men 511 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 1: tend to experience widowhood or widowerhood really as a more 512 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: emotionally distressing event than women. And this is a a 513 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: study from the Journal of Health and Social Behavior. But 514 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: they make sure to stress that men and women experience 515 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: both marriage and widowhood differently. Imagine that and that includes 516 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: the pros and cons of both. So basically what they're 517 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: saying is that when a man dies, leaving his wife behind. 518 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 1: Her stress comes from the financial strain. But when a 519 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: woman leaves a man behind, his stress comes from that 520 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: lack of a social network. Maybe he doesn't have as 521 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 1: many people coming to visit as she would, that kind 522 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: of thing. Maybe he's not good if he's not good 523 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,160 Speaker 1: at reaching out to go to the doctor. Maybe he's 524 00:32:20,200 --> 00:32:23,000 Speaker 1: not as good as reaching out to friends for support. Yeah, 525 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,480 Speaker 1: and we'll get into this more about how the existence 526 00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 1: of a social support network prior to losing a spouse 527 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: really predicts how well they will. You know, a widow 528 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: or widower will transition perhaps into another relationship, another romantic 529 00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: relationship in their life. And speaking of widowers and romantic 530 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: or perhaps just purely sexual relationships, we would like to 531 00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: note that, according to a study published in two thousand 532 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 1: nine in the American Journal of Public Health, widowhood and 533 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 1: older men but not women, is correlated to an increased 534 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,200 Speaker 1: risk for s t I S and is finding was 535 00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: particularly pronounced after the introduction of the first oral erectile 536 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:10,600 Speaker 1: dysfunction drugs. So Grandpa's out there taking viagra. Don't forget 537 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: that s t I S still exist at the retirement home, right, Grandpa. 538 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 1: Grandpa's getting frisky. Now that we have poisoned your brain 539 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: with images of people getting s t I s in 540 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: nursing homes, we should talk about dating and remarriage for 541 00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: for widows and widowers. Yeah, I mean, the fact of 542 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: the matter is there is a major gender imbalance, particularly 543 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:37,560 Speaker 1: if you are over sixty five. According to census data 544 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 1: from two thousand three, women over sixty five out number 545 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: men roughly one and a half to one, and by 546 00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 1: eighty five that has grown to women outnumbering men four 547 00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: to one. Um So The Senses also estimates that each year, 548 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,959 Speaker 1: out of every one thousand widowed men and women sixty 549 00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: five and older, only three women but seventeen men remarry. 550 00:34:03,160 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: So still remarriage at that age isn't super high, but 551 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: still a lot more common for widowers to marry. So 552 00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: so what's going on here? What? What? What's the deal 553 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: with widower's interests in dating and remarriage compared to widows well? 554 00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,760 Speaker 1: As Debora Carr from Rutgers University points out talking about 555 00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: these statistics, the numbers of people who are getting remarried 556 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,760 Speaker 1: don't necessarily indicate the number of people who are interested 557 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: in it or interested in romance in general. She points 558 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 1: out that men's widowed men's interest in dating and remarriage 559 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,600 Speaker 1: really depends on the amount of social support they receive 560 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 1: from friends. So six months after they've lost their spouse, 561 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,440 Speaker 1: men are significantly more likely to want to remarry, But 562 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: only those men with lower average levels of social support 563 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: from friends want to remarry. So what does that mean? 564 00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,920 Speaker 1: And that ties back into the whole thing of women 565 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,800 Speaker 1: being the social directors of having all of those social connections, 566 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: so that if her husband dies, she's more okay. She 567 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,000 Speaker 1: still has a lot more people around her than he does. 568 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:15,800 Speaker 1: And so perhaps men widowers not wanting to be alone 569 00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:17,880 Speaker 1: are more likely to be like, oh, I want to 570 00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: get remarried. I don't want to be alone. Yeah, And 571 00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:23,440 Speaker 1: I think it has to do with probably familiarity as well. 572 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: If you've been married to someone for forty plus years 573 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: and that person dies, like, that's all you know is 574 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:34,319 Speaker 1: that structure of coming home to or just staying at 575 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: home all day with this other person. That's how you socialize, 576 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,359 Speaker 1: That's that's who you interact with. You're not probably by 577 00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:42,840 Speaker 1: the time you're like eighty five, you might not be 578 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 1: going out. You might your cruise director, your cruise lineup 579 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,160 Speaker 1: might not be as bumping as it used to be. Um, 580 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 1: so so to me, it makes it makes so much 581 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: sense of especially looking looking at my my parents who 582 00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: are getting older. Yeah, car right, that it's that emotional 583 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 1: support that tends to even out the numbers. Widowers and 584 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:09,839 Speaker 1: widows who have similar levels of emotional closeness with their 585 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,759 Speaker 1: friends really don't differ in their desire to get into 586 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:18,040 Speaker 1: a relationship after their spouse dies. But what about younger widows, 587 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: because we mentioned at the top of the podcast that 588 00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: this topic was requested from a younger widow. Um, there 589 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:26,600 Speaker 1: are I mean, going back to those statistics we were 590 00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: talking about two in terms of widows during wartime in 591 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 1: the United States, there have been now over six hundred 592 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:41,600 Speaker 1: casualties from the awards in Iraq and Afghanistan, And so 593 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:45,040 Speaker 1: clearly there are their widows stateside, and they're younger widows 594 00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: who are dealing with this as well. And there was 595 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: also a statistic, you said, Caroline, of fifty six thousand 596 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,759 Speaker 1: widows under thirty five in the United States in two 597 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: thousand nine alone. But according to a study that came 598 00:36:56,600 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: out in the Annals of Clinical Psychiatry, there's still some 599 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: appears to be some conflict, not surprisingly with remarriage. So 600 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: it found that women express more negative feelings about forming 601 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:11,000 Speaker 1: new romantic relationships. We tend to be a little more 602 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,360 Speaker 1: hesitant no matter our age. But speaking of age, the 603 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: younger we are as women, the likelier we are to remarry. However, 604 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: for men, the greatest predictors of them remarrying if they 605 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: are widowers is a higher monthly income and a level 606 00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: of education. So it's kind of interesting to see how 607 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: it's money for men age for women. Yeah, yeah, I 608 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 1: and that is something I think that goes back all 609 00:37:37,440 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 1: the way to ancient assyria um and consistent with other studies, 610 00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: that same clinical psychiatry study that Kristen decided, looking at 611 00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:49,240 Speaker 1: those first two years of widowhood, that first early window 612 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,279 Speaker 1: found that by twenty five months after the spouse's death, 613 00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,680 Speaker 1: of men and of women were either remarried or involved 614 00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:01,719 Speaker 1: in a new romance. And so there's that same there's 615 00:38:01,760 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: that same divide again. Yeah. And one story that I 616 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:08,840 Speaker 1: read before we came into the podcast studio. More recently, 617 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:11,680 Speaker 1: this was reported on in the BBC about how there's 618 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: some proposed legislative changes in the UK that would allow widows, 619 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 1: like military widows to remarry and continue receiving their deceased 620 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,600 Speaker 1: husband's pensions, because there have been cases where women who 621 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 1: have been you know, receiving these pensions from the government 622 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: for their husband's deaths have not been able to afford 623 00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: to remarry because they would take such a financial hit 624 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 1: losing that pension. And these women aren't money grubbers, They 625 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,879 Speaker 1: simply want to start this new chapter of their life. 626 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: But because for so long, you know what, widows tend 627 00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 1: to face such a huge financial burden, and at least 628 00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,160 Speaker 1: in this case, that the social support has not really 629 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:56,800 Speaker 1: been there. It's kind of been like, will help you 630 00:38:57,000 --> 00:38:59,560 Speaker 1: as long as you don't remarry, which doesn't seem like 631 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,080 Speaker 1: a much of a fair deal. That seems like everything 632 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: we just talked about for the past couple of centuries. Well, 633 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 1: and on top of the lack of more like federal support, 634 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 1: perhaps government support for for widows, just think about the 635 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,719 Speaker 1: day to day social support in terms of I'm sure 636 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,600 Speaker 1: for even though there aren't discreete rules in American culture 637 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: to the same extent as you might see in uh, 638 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:30,360 Speaker 1: you know, developing nations where you have these distinct cleansing 639 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,319 Speaker 1: rituals that you have to go through. I think there's 640 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,680 Speaker 1: still this question of well, how long do I need 641 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 1: to be in mourning? How long you know, when can 642 00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: I start to date? How soon is too soon? And 643 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: what are people going to think if I do want 644 00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 1: to start dating again. I mean, well they think that 645 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: I'm just Are people going to think that I just 646 00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,560 Speaker 1: don't care anymore about my diseased spouse? What? I'm sure 647 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,160 Speaker 1: that they're caught in limbo something. It's it's got to 648 00:39:58,200 --> 00:40:01,799 Speaker 1: be rough, because one's going to judge you almost at 649 00:40:01,840 --> 00:40:04,040 Speaker 1: every step of the way. I would think as far 650 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:07,920 Speaker 1: as if you're dating too early, maybe maybe your husband's 651 00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:10,200 Speaker 1: family thinks you're dating too early, or maybe your friends 652 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,480 Speaker 1: don't think you're dating early enough. Maybe they think you 653 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,280 Speaker 1: need to get back out there and just stop talking 654 00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: about it, stop thinking about it, get over it. But 655 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,560 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's having not been in those shoes. 656 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 1: It's it's I don't you know, how can you tell 657 00:40:21,719 --> 00:40:27,480 Speaker 1: somebody to get over it? Yeah? Prolific writer Carol Brady Fleet, 658 00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,600 Speaker 1: who wrote the book Widows, where Stiletta is a practical 659 00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:33,279 Speaker 1: and emotional guide for the young widow, basically says you 660 00:40:33,320 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 1: know you're not a weirdo if you want to to 661 00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: date or remarry eventually. And for all of those people 662 00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,120 Speaker 1: giving you different types of advice on how you should 663 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:44,960 Speaker 1: live your life and get over it or not get 664 00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: over it, she says to to really kind of take 665 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:52,240 Speaker 1: them into account, accept the advice and the words of wisdom, 666 00:40:52,360 --> 00:40:56,960 Speaker 1: and kind of find your own appropriate path. She she 667 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,520 Speaker 1: warns you that your friends are gonna move on before 668 00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:02,800 Speaker 1: you do. That doesn't mean you should hold onto the 669 00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,400 Speaker 1: people who are jerks and don't support you. You know, 670 00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,080 Speaker 1: maybe you need to reevaluate some of your friendships after 671 00:41:08,200 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 1: you go through this life experience, but you know, she 672 00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: she warns readers that you know, it's it's a hard 673 00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:17,480 Speaker 1: road and it's kind of you're kind of on it 674 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: by yourself. Well, and what stood out to me as 675 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: opposed to a lot of the topics that we talk 676 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: about on the podcast. It's usually full of articles and 677 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: advice on you know, best practices like what to do. 678 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of research on it, but it's 679 00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:37,719 Speaker 1: not so much in this case. There's lots of information 680 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,000 Speaker 1: on how widows have it really hard and how there 681 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:42,320 Speaker 1: are a lot of them, and we just don't know 682 00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: what to do, and and it seems like from there 683 00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,600 Speaker 1: it's just people shrugging their shoulders and saying, I don't 684 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like there's this massive gap 685 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:55,680 Speaker 1: of I mean, because you can really never prepare for 686 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,440 Speaker 1: it fully because who really wants to think about that. 687 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: I mean, unless you are dealing with a spouse who 688 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:02,439 Speaker 1: has some kind of long term illness, there's a little 689 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: bit more preparation for that. But it's not like when 690 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:09,520 Speaker 1: you get married, you're like, well, let's start planning ahead 691 00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: for when you die, because that will happen. Um. So 692 00:42:13,840 --> 00:42:15,279 Speaker 1: I just I don't know. I just feel like there's 693 00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:21,120 Speaker 1: there needs to be more resources, more conversation, more uh, 694 00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:26,239 Speaker 1: more allowance for widows and widowers to take care of 695 00:42:26,360 --> 00:42:31,879 Speaker 1: themselves in whatever way that is appropriate for their individual situations. 696 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,720 Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff out there, relatively speaking about 697 00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,240 Speaker 1: the financial aspect, because I think it's such a common 698 00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 1: thing for women to run into the issue of like, 699 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:46,439 Speaker 1: oh no, like my husband was the one who either 700 00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:48,759 Speaker 1: made more money, or he controlled the finances, or he 701 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,640 Speaker 1: wrote the checks, and suddenly I'm left with no safety net. 702 00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: So I think there is a lot of stuff among 703 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: like financial people on how to help widows or financial 704 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,879 Speaker 1: people giving advice to women who have lost a spouse. UM, 705 00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,319 Speaker 1: but there is sort of a big gap, You're right, 706 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:07,960 Speaker 1: and in the more like the emotional side of things. Well, 707 00:43:08,000 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: maybe it's time to ask our listeners what needs to 708 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: be done, because I'm I'm sure that there are some 709 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:18,680 Speaker 1: widows and widowers listening, or you know, people who have 710 00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:23,239 Speaker 1: seen their parents go through the loss of a spouse. Um, 711 00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:26,319 Speaker 1: how how do we process this? How do we how 712 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: can we be better for people in our families, in 713 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,920 Speaker 1: our communities, in the world at large who deal with 714 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,240 Speaker 1: the loss of a spouse. Let us know. Mom Stuff 715 00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,279 Speaker 1: at Discovery dot com is where you can send us 716 00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:43,840 Speaker 1: your letters. You can also tweet us at mom Stuff 717 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,120 Speaker 1: podcast or send us a Facebook message as well. And 718 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:49,160 Speaker 1: we have a couple of messages to share with you 719 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:56,200 Speaker 1: right now. So we've got a couple of letters here 720 00:43:56,520 --> 00:43:59,360 Speaker 1: from our episode on Girls and a d h D. 721 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,360 Speaker 1: This one is from Amanda, subject line a d h 722 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:06,200 Speaker 1: D thank you to exclamation points. She writes, thank you 723 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: so much for your episode on women and Girls and 724 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: a d h D. I received my a d h 725 00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,800 Speaker 1: D diagnosis at age six and spent much of my 726 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 1: elementary school years on riddlin. I stopped medicating in middle school, 727 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,400 Speaker 1: and I'm now an adult and have learned to manage it, 728 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: but I still live with a d h D. Every day, 729 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,399 Speaker 1: I have what I like to call the spacey kind. 730 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,920 Speaker 1: It's very difficult for me to maintain focus. For instance, 731 00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:33,200 Speaker 1: and this happens every single day. A colleague will approach 732 00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:35,640 Speaker 1: me at my cubicle to discuss an issue, but another 733 00:44:35,719 --> 00:44:38,080 Speaker 1: conversation will be happening a few cubes over, and I 734 00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,200 Speaker 1: can't help but have one ear in each conversation. It's 735 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,439 Speaker 1: simply impossible for me to listen to only the person 736 00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:45,440 Speaker 1: talking to me, and it makes it hard when they 737 00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: walk away and I have no idea what they said. Anyway, 738 00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:50,960 Speaker 1: it's great to hear attention as being drawn to women 739 00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:52,880 Speaker 1: in a d h D because it is so often 740 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,520 Speaker 1: identified with hyperactive men and boys. So thank you so much. 741 00:44:56,640 --> 00:45:01,200 Speaker 1: I'm very grateful. Thank you, Amanda. So I have a 742 00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,520 Speaker 1: letter here from Ashley who says, as a female with 743 00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:06,040 Speaker 1: a d h D, it was very hard for me 744 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,200 Speaker 1: to get an actual diagnosis so that I could get help. 745 00:45:08,239 --> 00:45:11,120 Speaker 1: In school, I have several teachers who just write it 746 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,680 Speaker 1: off as I am you mentioned a little bit dreamy 747 00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: or an airhead, because I don't show any signs of hyperactivity. 748 00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: I do, however, understand the imposter syndrome feeling as I 749 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,920 Speaker 1: make a's and b's in school, but I have to 750 00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,080 Speaker 1: work so hard for them that I spent upwards of 751 00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,279 Speaker 1: fifteen hours a week studying and doing homework while little 752 00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,880 Speaker 1: Susie classmate makes a's and b's without making hardly any effort, 753 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:34,480 Speaker 1: which makes me kind of angry actually because of the 754 00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,279 Speaker 1: competitive and perfectionist traits that I have. Also because of this, 755 00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:40,480 Speaker 1: I have had to take an antidepressant a d h 756 00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,480 Speaker 1: D pill mix. This has absolutely been a wonder drug 757 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: for me. And when reading the forums, when I was 758 00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:47,279 Speaker 1: looking at what kind of pills I was going to 759 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: have to take, I discovered there are so many people 760 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:52,560 Speaker 1: like me who have to take an antidepressant and a 761 00:45:52,680 --> 00:45:54,720 Speaker 1: d h D pill, which for me is well beutron. 762 00:45:55,120 --> 00:45:57,800 Speaker 1: This made me feel a lot better about it. Again, 763 00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,120 Speaker 1: thank you for covering this topic on your podcast, as 764 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,279 Speaker 1: I hope many girls and women will feel better that 765 00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,680 Speaker 1: they are not alone, as it is a terrible feeling 766 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:09,080 Speaker 1: that everyone seems to quote have it together and you don't. Oh, 767 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:12,560 Speaker 1: and she says, ps. I have also been given the 768 00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: little key ring with the remote in case you lose 769 00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,640 Speaker 1: your keys. I lost the remote too. Don't feel bad. 770 00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:21,120 Speaker 1: So thank you, Ashley, and thanks to everybody who's written 771 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:23,680 Speaker 1: into its mom Stuff at discovery dot com is where 772 00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 1: you can send us your letters and for links to 773 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,480 Speaker 1: all of our social media, every single one of our 774 00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,840 Speaker 1: podcast videos and blogs. There's one place to go, and 775 00:46:31,920 --> 00:46:37,839 Speaker 1: it's stuff Mom Never told You dot com. For more 776 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,200 Speaker 1: on this and thousands of other topics. Is it how 777 00:46:40,239 --> 00:46:50,640 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Audible dot com is the leading 778 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,680 Speaker 1: provider of downloadable digital audio books and spoken word entertainment. 779 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,000 Speaker 1: Audible has over one hundred thousand titles to choose from 780 00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,720 Speaker 1: to be downloaded to your iPod or m P three player. 781 00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,680 Speaker 1: Go to audible podcast dot com slash stuff mom to 782 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: get a free audio book download of your choice when 783 00:47:07,880 --> 00:47:11,800 Speaker 1: you sign up today. That's Audible podcast dot com slash 784 00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:12,680 Speaker 1: stuff Mom