1 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,320 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week 2 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:18,799 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with 3 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: someone who has a front row seat to the most 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: fascinating things happening in tech today. A conversation with Evan Ratliffe, 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: an investigative journalist and podcast host. He's reported for two 6 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,880 Speaker 1: years on a fringe group of young tech people who 7 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: became obsessed with the dangers of AI, and he believes 8 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: that the best entry point to their story is November 9 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, when police in Sonoma County received a nine 10 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: to one one call from a tranquil wilderness camp and 11 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 1: a retreat center tucked into the redwoods of northern California. 12 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 2: They had a protest, so that there are only four 13 00:00:58,080 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 2: people really involved at this point. 14 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: This is Evan Ratliffe. 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: They showed up wearing black robes, which they would describe 16 00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 2: as sith robes. They wear a guy fowx masks. They 17 00:01:08,880 --> 00:01:11,039 Speaker 2: parked their cars in a way that seemed to block 18 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 2: the entrances and exits of this center called Westminster Woods, 19 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:17,280 Speaker 2: where the reunion was supposed to be held. 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: Evan says that day the camp was hosting two groups 21 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: of visitors. One was a gathering for a nonprofit called 22 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: the Center for Applied Rationality or CFAR. The members of 23 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: this group described themselves as rationalists, people who believe pure, 24 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: unbiased rational thinking is not only possible, but the key 25 00:01:39,040 --> 00:01:44,399 Speaker 1: to preventing artificial intelligence from destroying humanity. The protesters in 26 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: the woods north of San Francisco had belonged to CFAR themselves, 27 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: at least up until very recently. 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 2: They were becoming disaffected with that Center for Applied Rationalities 29 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 2: people called SEAFAR. They were going to present on some 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 2: of their complaints. They were then disvi to the reunion 31 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 2: because people were becoming concerned with some of their aggressiveness, 32 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:09,239 Speaker 2: and they brought these flyers which had these incredibly obscure 33 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: complaints about this group that no one could understand who 34 00:02:13,760 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 2: wasn't sort of like, directly involved in. 35 00:02:15,560 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: This invitation or not. The former rationalists wanted to make 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: their voices heard and their presence felt. But the problem 37 00:02:24,160 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 1: was another group of visitors at the Westminster Woods. 38 00:02:28,000 --> 00:02:29,799 Speaker 2: So in addition to the reunion that was supposed to 39 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,960 Speaker 2: be taking place, there was a bunch of kids who 40 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: were there for a ropes course. And when these people 41 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,960 Speaker 2: in masks and robes showed up out of nowhere and 42 00:02:39,000 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 2: blocked the interests in exosues. They called the police. The 43 00:02:41,919 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 2: police believed that this could be like an active shooter 44 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,280 Speaker 2: type of situation, a hostage situation, so they came in 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,960 Speaker 2: with the SWAT team. They came in guns drawn, and 46 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 2: they took down these four protesters, and then they had 47 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 2: helicopters they had I mean, it was a very very 48 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: dramatic situation, and that kind of set off a long 49 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:03,320 Speaker 2: string of these events. 50 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: A long string of confounding increasingly violent events that would 51 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: eventually capture the world's attention, at first in the tech 52 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: community and then beyond. These protesters became known to the 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: general public as the Zizians. 54 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 2: Violence potentially linked to members of a Bay Area born 55 00:03:22,680 --> 00:03:26,560 Speaker 2: cult like group known as the Zizians. The Zizians a 56 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 2: radical death cult known as the Zizians. Six people have 57 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: been killed in some way associated with this collection of people, 58 00:03:34,400 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 2: and that includes the shooting of a Border Patrol agent 59 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 2: in Vermont and the stabbing of a man in Vallejo 60 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 2: who was once their landlord, the double murder of one 61 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 2: of their parents. So this violence has sort of surrounded them, 62 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:50,480 Speaker 2: and it's not entirely clear. 63 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,120 Speaker 3: What it all adds up to. 64 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,000 Speaker 1: Complicating the picture is the media frenzy that's been surrounding 65 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: this group. The Zizians have been described as a trans 66 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: vegan cult or a trans death cult in headlines all 67 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: over the world. But behind these culture war buzzwords and 68 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,520 Speaker 1: odd details about the group and its members, there's a 69 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: larger story to tell about Silicon Valley, its culture, and 70 00:04:15,600 --> 00:04:18,560 Speaker 1: what happens to a community that's grappling with the future 71 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:23,039 Speaker 1: of humanity head on. It's a community Evan Ratliffe knows 72 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: well the essence of which he captured in his article 73 00:04:25,800 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: for Wired titled the Delirious, Violent, Impossible True Story of 74 00:04:31,880 --> 00:04:35,599 Speaker 1: the Zizians. Evan has been reporting on Silicon Valley for 75 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: more than two decades, and he told us that his 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: first exposure to the germ of this story was actually 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:43,919 Speaker 1: back when he was a researcher for Wide Magazine. 78 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: I worked on this story called Why the Future Doesn't 79 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,800 Speaker 2: Need Us by Bill Joy, and it was a hugely 80 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,080 Speaker 2: influential and popular story. It was probably the most popular 81 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: story that Wired Magazine had ever done to that date 82 00:04:56,839 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: for sure, and. 83 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: I don't know, maybe since what year is this? 84 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: This was two thousand. I believe the premise of the 85 00:05:03,240 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 2: story was that humans were developing this technology that potentially 86 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 2: could cause our own destruction, and one of the technologies 87 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,719 Speaker 2: was sort of robotics and artificial intelligence. And so at 88 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 2: that time I started researching and paying attention to people 89 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,279 Speaker 2: who were having discussions around this issue. 90 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,040 Speaker 3: Could artificial intelligence develop in such. 91 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,680 Speaker 2: A way that it could eliminate the need for humans, 92 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: It could accidentally destroy humans, it could intentionally and malevolently 93 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 2: destroy humans. I was very interested in this topic, and 94 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,359 Speaker 2: some of the figures at that time ended up starting 95 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 2: a kind of movement to understand and solve the problem 96 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 2: of what they call the AI singularity and AI alignment. 97 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:49,240 Speaker 2: So the idea that AI could become super intelligent, and 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 2: if it's going to become super intelligent, we have to 99 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 2: align it. We have to make sure it's aligned with 100 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 2: our human desires, otherwise it will leave us behind, intentionally 101 00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 2: or accidentally. So that's what became rationality, which is the 102 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 2: ideology that the Zizians emerged from. 103 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 1: What role does Yakowski playing all of this. 104 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 2: Eliezer Judkowski is the founder of the organizations that have 105 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: sort of most committed to these ideas. Now I want 106 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: to be very careful to say like he not only 107 00:06:21,880 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 2: does he have nothing to do with the Zizians per se, 108 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 2: Like you know, I would say he's like anti zizion 109 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 2: As everyone in the rationality community like they're afraid. They 110 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 2: were afraid of these people, like they're truly afraid, literally 111 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,720 Speaker 2: afraid for their lives. They had to have extra security 112 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: at their meetups because these people were at large throughout 113 00:06:41,520 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three. So Eliezer Judkowski 114 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,839 Speaker 2: started something called the Machine Intelligence Research Institute but let's 115 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 2: just call it Miry and Mary was essentially developed to 116 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 2: research the question of will AI eventually destroy us? And 117 00:06:57,960 --> 00:06:59,640 Speaker 2: what can we do about it? How can we align 118 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,800 Speaker 2: AI and this? It kind of attracted very very smart 119 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 2: people around it. It attracted a good bit of funding, 120 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,880 Speaker 2: including from Peter Teel, and then also they sort of 121 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 2: developed this ideology called rationalism, which sort of spun out 122 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 2: of it. And Eliezioedkowski was also involved in founding this, 123 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: you know, Center for Applied Rationality, where their idea was, well, 124 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 2: not only should we think about this question AI, we 125 00:07:22,080 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: should also think about everything through this rational lens, this 126 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 2: lens where we kind of strip away both emotion and 127 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: societal pressure and we just try to think about things 128 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 2: more logically and rationally. And that became almost like a 129 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 2: movement in and of itself that attracted. 130 00:07:39,600 --> 00:07:40,600 Speaker 3: People to the Bay Area. 131 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 2: And so the philosophy rationalism has been influential in Silicon Valley. 132 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: But I think when it comes to like aligning AI, 133 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 2: I would think even the people associated with MIRI and 134 00:07:50,880 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 2: these organizations would say like they haven't been particularly effective, 135 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: if at all. 136 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 3: In creating alignment. 137 00:07:57,440 --> 00:07:59,880 Speaker 2: I mean, there are some people inside Open AI and 138 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 2: other companies that believe in this stuff, but a lot 139 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: of times they're just resigning because they can't get any 140 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 2: traction in the organization. The organization just wants to get 141 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 2: bigger and frankly make more money. 142 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: Who exactly are the Zizians and what can you tell 143 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 1: us about zis Lesota. 144 00:08:15,280 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 2: So zizz Lesda is you know, nominally the leader of 145 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: the group, the Zizians. If you read their own writings, 146 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 2: you know she says, I'm not the leader of the 147 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 2: group like I lead without authority, is what she writes. 148 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: But she she is a as many of the members are. 149 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,840 Speaker 2: She's a technically gifted person, she's trained as a computer 150 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:43,160 Speaker 2: engineer and then got into this world of rationalism and 151 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: effect of altruism, which is the sort of putting your 152 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: money towards sort of utilitarian causes where you're trying to 153 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 2: benefit the most people. 154 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: This was Sam bankman Fried's purported crusade exactly. 155 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,760 Speaker 2: Sam bankatried both made effective altruism more famous and also 156 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: you know, caused it untold damage to its reputation. But 157 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 2: I mean there were maybe half a dozen, maximum twelve 158 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: people you could say were sort of like the Zizians. 159 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,960 Speaker 2: Now new people emerged early this year who no one 160 00:09:14,000 --> 00:09:17,440 Speaker 2: had known about, including myself, So there could be more 161 00:09:17,480 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: people who are influenced by this ideology or involved in 162 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 2: some way that no one knows about. But for the 163 00:09:22,040 --> 00:09:24,600 Speaker 2: time being, we sort of have a handle on the 164 00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:27,520 Speaker 2: people who were involved. As far as the ideology, I 165 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 2: spent a long time in the ideology. First of all, 166 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: I don't think it's completely coherent. The things you could 167 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:37,679 Speaker 2: say clearly about the ideology is that there's a belief 168 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 2: in veganism the value of all life or sentient life. 169 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: And you know, one of the big complaints was that 170 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,959 Speaker 2: people who were focused on AI alignment were not focused 171 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,160 Speaker 2: on aligning the AI to be friendly towards humans and animals, 172 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: just humans. And there's a belief, I think in sort 173 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: of like the moral absolutism around those issues. So the 174 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,280 Speaker 2: people involved believe that they have the moral authority to 175 00:10:09,360 --> 00:10:12,480 Speaker 2: sort of pursue those issues in the world. So that's 176 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 2: what's so baffling about this situation is they have the ideology, 177 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 2: they've written many hundreds of thousands of words of the ideology, 178 00:10:18,520 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: but if you look at the people who have died, 179 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,079 Speaker 2: it's very hard to connect it to the ideology. They 180 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 2: seem like random people connected to the group. And that's 181 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 2: why I sort of go back to this sort of 182 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: moral absolutism that you know, allegedly if they were involved 183 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,680 Speaker 2: in these violent acts. When you adopt a stance that 184 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 2: all of humanity is at risk and you are the 185 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,880 Speaker 2: person who has the moral fortitude to solve that problem, 186 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: it can open you up to all sorts of acts 187 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: that you're kind of like allowed by your moral code 188 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 2: to carry out. 189 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 1: When we come back us how Zizla Sota's disappointment in 190 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: the rationalist community led to the formation of the Zizians. 191 00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 1: Welcome back to a conversation with Evan Ratliffe about the Zizians, 192 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: a confounding group of young tech people who got their 193 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: start in the rationalist movement. Some media outlets have gone 194 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:31,520 Speaker 1: so far as to call the Zizians a cult, which 195 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,560 Speaker 1: would imply a level of recruitment on the part of 196 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 1: Zizla Sota, the nominal leader of the group. But to Evan, 197 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: the recruitment process seemed more like disenchantment. 198 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,559 Speaker 2: I think people just kind of gravitated. There were other 199 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:48,520 Speaker 2: disaffected people, some of whom were also trans women, and 200 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 2: I think they just kind of gravitated towards this group. 201 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 2: They felt a little outcast, and so they kind of 202 00:11:55,120 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 2: ended up here. Now, I think many people in rationality 203 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 2: would say like they all had a variety of potentially 204 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: mental health conditions that were contributing to this. I think 205 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,800 Speaker 2: people in the group would say they were neurodiverse and 206 00:12:08,840 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: that was something that maybe brought them together. Part of 207 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:15,840 Speaker 2: what I would say happened with the Zizians speculating, we 208 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 2: can't say for sure, but if as a person who's 209 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:21,199 Speaker 2: consumed a lot of their writings is that they showed 210 00:12:21,280 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: up and they ended up sort of like disappointed with 211 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 2: the social situation, and also like what these people were 212 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 2: doing to solve the problem that they're so religious about, 213 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,640 Speaker 2: so they were disaffected by that. So you have all 214 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 2: of these people saying like AI is going to change 215 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 2: the world, but the people who are trying to restrain 216 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 2: AI are completely failing at doing that. So it's not 217 00:12:44,920 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: terribly surprising that some people would come to join that, 218 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:50,680 Speaker 2: you know, if we call it like a religious religious 219 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 2: idea and then say like, oh, you're not. 220 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 3: None of you were actually living it, So we're going 221 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 3: to go live it. 222 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 2: We're going to be the real people who can really 223 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 2: do what you're saying you're. 224 00:12:59,600 --> 00:12:59,920 Speaker 1: Going to do. 225 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:05,160 Speaker 2: So it's a swirl. It's a swirl of different potential reasons. 226 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 2: But it wasn't like a cult where someone's like actively 227 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 2: going out and like trying to pull people in. 228 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: I wouldn't say. 229 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: That swirl of disaffectation. The first kind of like dramatic 230 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: manifestation of that was the scene you described with the 231 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: guy Fawkes mask and syth cloaks. 232 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: Yes, I mean that was the place where they really 233 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 2: broke from the organization, the Center for Applied Rationality, and 234 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 2: also sort of demonstrated that they were up to something else. 235 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: And after that, after the arrests, did that make this 236 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,680 Speaker 1: small group closer or did it push them apart? And 237 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:44,040 Speaker 1: what were the years between the arrests in twenty nineteen 238 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,120 Speaker 1: at the protest and the first murders that are allegedly 239 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: connected to the group, what happened between those times. 240 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: I think the arrests really did bring them together slash 241 00:13:55,120 --> 00:13:58,320 Speaker 2: push them further outside of society. You know, they were 242 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: facing these sort of ongoing legal charges. Then they were 243 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: filing a federal lawsuit for abuse and torture by the police. 244 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 2: And they also, you know, they had our hard time 245 00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 2: finding a place to live. You know, they had been 246 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: they had tried living on boats in the Bay Area 247 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 2: for a while and then that didn't work out, and 248 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 2: so then they were moving from sort of airbnbs one 249 00:14:21,320 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 2: to another. But you know, if you stayed at an 250 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:25,800 Speaker 2: Airbnb and you're wearing black sith robes all day and 251 00:14:25,880 --> 00:14:28,720 Speaker 2: acting very strangely, like, pretty soon you're gonna kicked out 252 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: of that Airbnb. So they ended up living on this 253 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:33,960 Speaker 2: property in Vallejo where they were sort of semi squatters 254 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,240 Speaker 2: with these trailers, and so I think partly it was 255 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: getting arrested. And then partly it was this they were 256 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 2: just kind of falling out of society more and more 257 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 2: because the combination of their behavior and their reputation was 258 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,280 Speaker 2: causing them to not be able to find like a 259 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 2: proper place to live, and then that was making the 260 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 2: problem worse, and it sort of compounds itself. 261 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: And how did the alleged Mudis begin. 262 00:14:57,680 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 2: Well, the first incident of real violent was when they 263 00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:04,920 Speaker 2: were living on this property in Vallejo and the landlord 264 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 2: was in the process of trying to evict them. So 265 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: basically the landlord had taken them on the property. Then 266 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 2: during COVID they had stopped paying any rent. A lot 267 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 2: of rent back rent had accrued, and then by twenty 268 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,200 Speaker 2: twenty two they were continue to not pay rent, and 269 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: he went to the authorities. 270 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 3: And was going to get them evicted. 271 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 2: And then allegedly one of their number lured him to 272 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 2: one of their trailers saying there was a water leak, 273 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 2: and they started stabbing him with knives. One of them 274 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 2: stabbed him with a samurai sword, and he had a gun. 275 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 2: He pulled out the gun, he shot and killed one 276 00:15:39,680 --> 00:15:42,040 Speaker 2: of them, and he survived that stabbing. 277 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 3: He shot another one who survived. 278 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: One of them died, so two of the members, two 279 00:15:47,080 --> 00:15:49,840 Speaker 2: of the people associated with it, were arrested at that 280 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 2: time and had been in jail ever since and have 281 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 2: never gone to trial. And then he survived, only to 282 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 2: later be murdered by another member of the group earlier 283 00:15:57,760 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: this year. 284 00:15:59,040 --> 00:16:00,880 Speaker 1: And one of the other things that comes across you 285 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 1: reporting is that people affiliated with the group started to 286 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 1: get very scared for their own lives because of Ziz, 287 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: and also that Ziz was putting pressure on them to 288 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 1: commit murders. 289 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 2: Yes, there was a person named Michelle Zagko who was 290 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 2: sort of loosely involved with this collection of people. 291 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 3: Out in the Bay area. 292 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:23,520 Speaker 2: Then she moved to Vermont with a friend possibly kind 293 00:16:23,560 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 2: of partner of hers, and then but she was in 294 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: communication with Ziz and there and blogging about it, and 295 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 2: they're both they're all they're always writing on Tumblr and blogging, 296 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: and you know, a lot of this is public because 297 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: they wrote about what was happening at the time, and 298 00:16:37,920 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: Michelle wrote about how Ziz was saying that she should 299 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 2: kill the person that she was with, that she was 300 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 2: living with to prove her loyalty or to prove what 301 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 2: kind of person she was, and they had this like 302 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:53,400 Speaker 2: back and forth about it, and if, of course, as 303 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,080 Speaker 2: an outsider, if you read this, you think, well, this 304 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 2: is insane. 305 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: These people have just. 306 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 2: Lost their minds, like this, this is not real. But 307 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: that you know, not that long after that, Michelle's Ashco's parents, 308 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 2: Richard and Rita Zajko, were brutally murdered in their own 309 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: home in Pennsylvania, and shortly after the murder, three people 310 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,159 Speaker 2: in the group, including ziz Lasota, the nominal leader, were 311 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:21,159 Speaker 2: detained in Pennsylvania. One of them was the daughter of 312 00:17:21,200 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: the couple who had been murdered. It's a strange thing 313 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 2: to follow, I guess, I would say, because you see 314 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 2: intimations of violence and then suddenly there is real violence, 315 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: and it's like not totally clear how they're exactly connected 316 00:17:33,480 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: or why one may have allegedly led to the other. 317 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,239 Speaker 1: And the border patrol as what was that stand up? 318 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: Do we know what the allegations are as to why 319 00:17:40,840 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: that shooting could. 320 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: The basic facts, according to prosecutors in the court documents 321 00:17:46,359 --> 00:17:50,120 Speaker 2: so far, are that there were two people whose names 322 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: are Ophelia Baucolt and Teresa Youngblud, who were in Vermont. 323 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:59,000 Speaker 2: They were walking around wearing all black, often wearing tactical 324 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 2: gear and carrying guns or at least carrying a gun. 325 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 2: So naturally someone at a hotel where they were staying 326 00:18:05,640 --> 00:18:08,800 Speaker 2: just called it in to the police. The police and 327 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 2: Homeland security agents started sort of monitoring them, following them around, 328 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 2: and then eventually a border patrol agent pulled them over. 329 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 2: And when they were pulled over, they just they came 330 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:22,400 Speaker 2: out firing and this one border Portroyjan was killed. It's 331 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: not actually clear who fired the shot that killed the 332 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: border Platajian. One of the two, Aphelia Alcoult, was also 333 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: killed in the shootout and the other one survived. Teresa Youngblutt, 334 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:37,040 Speaker 2: so she is facing trial for potentially for the shooting 335 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 2: of the border Portrayjan who tragically died. 336 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: And Ophelia in Theresa. As far as we can define 337 00:18:42,800 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 1: them Zizzians in so far as they follow the writings 338 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:46,480 Speaker 1: of Ziz. 339 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean as loosely conceived Zizzians. They connected with Zizz. 340 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 2: They were known to have stayed in a property in 341 00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,479 Speaker 2: North Carolina prior to this incident, where Ziz also seemed 342 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: to be staying, so they seemed to be connected to 343 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 2: the group, but again, these are the two that no 344 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,680 Speaker 2: one knew for many years, including people in the rationalist 345 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:09,280 Speaker 2: community who knew them, had no idea that they were 346 00:19:09,280 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 2: being influenced by these ideas of Zizilsoda, much less that 347 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 2: they were like directly connected to people in the group. 348 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: Coming up, what the Cizians can tell us about the 349 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:39,959 Speaker 1: current moment in Silicon Valley and tech existentialism stay with us, 350 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 1: I guess going back to where we began and the 351 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: kind of rationalists in the Bay Area. Grace Byron wrote 352 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 1: in the Nation that the group is quote an offshoot 353 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 1: of the tech adult libertarian politics of Silicon Valley. Has 354 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: this group and his actions paused Silicon Valley libertarians ration 355 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: is to kind of inspect their own beliefs and question 356 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 1: how this level of extremism was able to emerge from 357 00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:10,640 Speaker 1: that set of ideas, or is it mol being dismissed 358 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: as a group of kind of fringe figures who say 359 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 1: she goes to their minds. 360 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:15,879 Speaker 3: I think you see a bit of both. 361 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: I think there are people who just say well, and 362 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:21,440 Speaker 2: any large group of people, there are some people who 363 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 2: have mental health issues, and these people happen to have 364 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 2: been very extreme versions of that On the other hand, 365 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 2: one of the things that I admire about the best 366 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 2: of the rationalists is that they're constantly self reflecting. I mean, 367 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:37,399 Speaker 2: that's partly what they do is they can't stop writing 368 00:20:37,400 --> 00:20:41,120 Speaker 2: about their own philosophy and like how it's changing and 369 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 2: what it means and different cases where it could be applied, 370 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 2: and has this gone wrong or has that gone wrong? 371 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 2: So I think you can find a lot of self 372 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 2: reflection around the Zizians and sort of like, what is 373 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 2: it about our philosophy that attracts this sort of person 374 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 2: I mean, they're not the first extreme group to emerge 375 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 2: out of the rationalists either. There have been a couple 376 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 2: of other ones, not to the extent of violence, but 377 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 2: you know, a couple of ones that people loosely. 378 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:06,479 Speaker 3: Describe as cults. 379 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:10,840 Speaker 2: So I think there has been some reflection on that. Now, 380 00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: whether or not that sort of filters into any change 381 00:21:15,040 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: in their outlook in the world, I'm not sure. 382 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:17,919 Speaker 3: I think it might be. 383 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 2: It's always time for a moment reflection when a lot 384 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:23,080 Speaker 2: of people get killed by people who are in your group, 385 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 2: But I don't know if it's going to lead to 386 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 2: sort of fundamental changes in how they view the world. 387 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: And you've wrote that the Zizians are a culture wolf, 388 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,199 Speaker 1: funhouse mirat for all times. I guess, A, what do 389 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,120 Speaker 1: you mean by that? And B how did you deal 390 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,160 Speaker 1: with that challenge in your porting on them? 391 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,959 Speaker 2: What I meant was that, I mean, being for instance, 392 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 2: pronominantly trans women in the group. You could see honestly, like, 393 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:56,000 Speaker 2: let's be clear, like the gleefulness with which the right 394 00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 2: wing media, for instance, embraced this story. Like I don't 395 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: I can't think of another way to describe it except 396 00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 2: like borderline gleefold. The excitement around being able to call 397 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 2: something a trans called just seeks just like the thrill. 398 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't want to project onto them, but 399 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: like if you read the stories, it's always sort of 400 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,880 Speaker 2: trans culled Trantifa. It's almost like they willed it into existence. 401 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 2: They wanted there to be trans violence. Now that's fine, 402 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:25,399 Speaker 2: it's part of their story. They are trans women. But 403 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 2: I think it's a mistake to choose any one lens 404 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:33,399 Speaker 2: and try to force that onto this story. So you know, 405 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 2: part of the challenge that we face was even how 406 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:38,439 Speaker 2: do you describe people? How do you what names do 407 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,680 Speaker 2: you use? Because the court documents often use their given 408 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: names that they were born with in one gender, but 409 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: they've lived under different names, and so, you know, we 410 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: tried to take the most thoughtful approach we could and 411 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:57,560 Speaker 2: tried not to layer on those sort of culture war 412 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,959 Speaker 2: tropes into the story and just of tell the story 413 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 2: as it happened, describing the people as they were at 414 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 2: the time, and you know, did our best at that. 415 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,520 Speaker 2: But I think it just it got loose. It became 416 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 2: a tabloid story. It became a social media phenomenon for 417 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 2: a while, and so you'll find everyone's approach, whether it's 418 00:23:15,560 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: Antifa or trans issues or fascism or you know, you'll 419 00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: find them all kind of rolled into how these people 420 00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 2: are portrayed. 421 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:27,160 Speaker 1: You mentioned effect vultruism. If we talked about the rationalists, 422 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: there's been some interesting reporting recently and the information about 423 00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: the kind of rise of Christianity in Sinicon Valley. Do 424 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: you have a kind of broader thesis about what's going 425 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,440 Speaker 1: on with faith and tech. 426 00:23:44,320 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: I don't know if I have a completely coherent thesis. 427 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,680 Speaker 2: I do think that AI scrambles your brain, like I think, 428 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,640 Speaker 2: if you think about it long enough, it scrambles your brain. 429 00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:57,320 Speaker 3: A lot of people try not to pay. 430 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: Attention to it that closely for that reason, because because 431 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,159 Speaker 2: it's easier to sort of say, like AI is going 432 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 2: to hit a wall or it's all going to go away, 433 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 2: or well, well I have a digital personal assistant and 434 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 2: like whatever, it's fine. But I think there are these 435 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 2: sort of like fundamental questions around what it means to 436 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 2: be human and creativity and work like they're all wrapped 437 00:24:20,880 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 2: up in this technology, and I think it can lead 438 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:27,880 Speaker 2: people to some new places. And so I think people 439 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: who are really really facing up to what AI is 440 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 2: and what it's does, it's not surprising to me that 441 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 2: they might end up in an existential place where they're 442 00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:41,280 Speaker 2: looking for something new, and that's something new might be 443 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 2: AI domerism, or that something might be Christianity, it could 444 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 2: be effect of altruism. Like I feel like it's natural 445 00:24:48,400 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 2: that these new philosophies and religious ideas would be connected 446 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 2: to this, because I think if you spend time thinking 447 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:57,800 Speaker 2: about it, it's hard to get your head around. I mean, 448 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,480 Speaker 2: I would say this is less like reported than my 449 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 2: sort of personal belief that you know, the way the 450 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: valley is so driven by the startup culture, and startup 451 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:12,520 Speaker 2: culture was fundamentally driven by getting huge amounts of VC 452 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:18,160 Speaker 2: investment if you can disrupting industries and then blowing up 453 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:25,199 Speaker 2: and then getting vastly wealthy wealth as the ultimate arbiter. Again, 454 00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 2: not surprising to me that many people would find that 455 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 2: empty when they get to it, not least because like 456 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 2: most of them never get wealthy, like most of them 457 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,360 Speaker 2: never kind of like reach that point in the startup culture, 458 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,439 Speaker 2: like they have failed startups, And so you have a 459 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:44,760 Speaker 2: lot of people who are kind of attracted to this 460 00:25:45,320 --> 00:25:48,239 Speaker 2: because the technistry sells itself as world changing, and it 461 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,240 Speaker 2: is world changing. But then they either are doing startups 462 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 2: that are relatively meaningless in the world but are meant 463 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:58,200 Speaker 2: to like blow up and make money, or they're working 464 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,399 Speaker 2: sort of like workaday in the tech industry, which they 465 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:04,640 Speaker 2: don't find particularly meaningful because they're tweaking tiny, tiny dials 466 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 2: at a vast, vast empire like Google or Facebook, And 467 00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: so it seems like a natural environment for people to 468 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 2: be looking for meaning that they're not finding in something 469 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: that drew them there almost as if it was meaningful, 470 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: and they're disaffected because they discover that it's not. 471 00:26:23,680 --> 00:26:26,560 Speaker 1: Of course, the Zisian story is far from over earlier 472 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:30,119 Speaker 1: this month, five members of the group appainting courtrooms across 473 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: the country from California to Maryland, and there are trials 474 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: underways determine charges in two violent incidents, also involving cysians. 475 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: Where do you see the story going next? 476 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 2: Well, currently, there are a lot of people in custody. 477 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,520 Speaker 2: I mean basically everyone who is involved in the group 478 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,200 Speaker 2: is either in custody or dead. Now, some of those 479 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 2: charges are not particularly serious. So, for instance, ziz Lasoda 480 00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 2: and Michelle's Agco and another person connected with the group 481 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: are in cust in Maryland and they're facing gun charges 482 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:05,480 Speaker 2: from when the cops showed up and they were kind 483 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,440 Speaker 2: of living in these box trucks and they had guns. 484 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 2: So they have gun charges and trespassing charges, but they're 485 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 2: all misdemeanors. So I think the big question is going 486 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 2: to be can the authorities pin any of the larger 487 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: episodes of violence on these individuals, and if not, I 488 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 2: can't see them staying in custody too long because again, 489 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:30,959 Speaker 2: the charge they're facing are not that serious. But I 490 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 2: think right now it looks likely that many members of 491 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,159 Speaker 2: the group, of not all of them, will be in 492 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:40,840 Speaker 2: jail or prison for the foreseeable future, but there there 493 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 2: are some trials coming up, and they could kind of 494 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 2: go either way as to whether they could ever reconstitute 495 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: as a group. That seems incredibly unlikely, but like, the 496 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:55,160 Speaker 2: philosophy's out there, so you know, it doesn't necessarily take 497 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:57,879 Speaker 2: them being anywhere for someone else to look at the 498 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 2: philosophy and decide to act on it in some way, 499 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: or if Ziz were to get out, to start communicating 500 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,960 Speaker 2: with and start the whole thing up again. So I 501 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 2: think we're at a real inflection moment where the question 502 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: is are these people for the large part, going to 503 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 2: prison or is there some chance that they could get 504 00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,920 Speaker 2: out and sort of start again. 505 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 1: Evan Ratliff, thank you so much, my pleasure. This episode 506 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: was produced by Eliza Dennis, Victoria Dominguez, and Adriana Tapia. 507 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,640 Speaker 1: It was executive produced by me Karen Price and Kate 508 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 1: Osborne for Kneidiscope and Katrina Norvelle for iHeart Podcasts. Jack 509 00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 1: Instead mixed this episode and Kyle Murder Rodelphine Song join 510 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 1: us on Friday for the Week in Tech. Kara and 511 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: I will run through all the most important tech headlines, 512 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 1: including some you may have missed, and please rate and 513 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: review the show in Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and reach 514 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,200 Speaker 1: out to us over email at tech Stuff podcast at 515 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: gmail dot com.