WEBVTT - Conflicts of Interest, Debunking Demand, Media Manipulation & More | IPCC Report, Part One 0:00:09.640 --> 0:00:14.400 Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Ami Westervelt. This 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.360 week a new report came out from the Inner Governmental 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:22.880 Panel on Climate Change, often referred to as the IPCC Report. 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:30.240 It's actually three main reports plus some smaller special focused reports, 0:00:30.520 --> 0:00:33.400 and this was the third of the big ones. It's 0:00:33.440 --> 0:00:36.800 on mitigation, so it focuses on what do we do 0:00:36.880 --> 0:00:41.960 about this crisis and why haven't we done it yet. Crucially, 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:46.600 this round of IPCC reports included social scientists and their 0:00:46.640 --> 0:00:50.360 research a lot more than previous assessments have, and you 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:54.279 really see it in this report. In particular, there are 0:00:54.400 --> 0:00:59.200 new chapters on things like demand, which sounds like demand 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:02.200 for fossil fuel, but in fact it questions that whole 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:08.080 notion altogether and asks how we can deliver the services 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.959 that people need, getting to work, having lights on in 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:16.320 their house, being able to cook, these sorts of needs, 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.360 while also reducing emissions. So it really tackles the question 0:01:20.440 --> 0:01:24.959 of how do we mitigate climate and poverty. There are 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:29.080 also new mentions of various things in here, including the 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:32.920 role that colonization played in driving the climate crisis in 0:01:32.959 --> 0:01:35.400 the first place and the role that it plays in 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:39.280 perpetuating the problem. This is the first time that we've 0:01:39.319 --> 0:01:43.160 seen the media mentioned in an IPCC report. Kind of 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:45.880 wild given how much of a role the media has 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:51.160 played in both informing and not informing the public. It's 0:01:51.240 --> 0:01:55.320 also the first mention of litigation as something that can 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:59.560 influence policy one way or the other. There's a lot 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:04.080 in this report, and because of the way that these 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:07.240 reports are put together, a lot of media coverage tends 0:02:07.280 --> 0:02:10.720 to not get past this summary for policy makers that 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.000 appears at the front of the report. It's a sixty 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:18.440 five page ish summary of the report, but it's also 0:02:18.560 --> 0:02:21.600 the one part of the report that government representatives get 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.560 to weigh in on and have to approve altogether. So 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.919 we're talking about representatives from the governments of one hundred 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:33.520 and ninety five countries having to agree on the language 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.919 and content of a document, which you can imagine does 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:44.440 not produce the most straightforward, clearly worded document. In this case, 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.200 several things were removed and or watered down. So for 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:53.520 that reason, and because this report is particularly important given 0:02:53.560 --> 0:02:55.640 the timing of it, I am going to spend the 0:02:55.639 --> 0:03:00.440 month of April reading all three thousand pages and bringing 0:03:00.480 --> 0:03:04.080 you information and analysis from them. Both here on the 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:08.680 podcast and on our website at drill podcast dot com. Today, 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.760 I'm looking at particularly chapter five. This is this totally 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:17.200 new chapter that's never been included in an IPCC report before. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.559 I also spoke with Catherine Mitchell, one of the coordinating 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:26.280 lead authors, on chapter thirteen, which is focused on policy. 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:31.639 Super interesting chapter. Obstructionism comes up a lot in this chapter, 0:03:31.840 --> 0:03:34.960 as it should, and it also looks at the need 0:03:35.360 --> 0:03:39.520 for what Mitchell calls enabling conditions. So this idea that 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.560 you could have all the amazing policies you want, but 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:45.600 if you don't have sort of a functional government, if 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:49.760 you don't have the ability to foster behavioral change, if 0:03:49.760 --> 0:03:53.440 you don't have finance all of these things, then those 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:57.880 policies won't actually do anything. Unfortunately, my laptop totally ate 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:01.120 the audio of that interview, but I did manage to 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.960 catch one of the contributing authors to that chapter, Max Boycoff. 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.040 I should say right up front that there is, as expected, 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:13.160 some pretty dire news in this report, starting with the 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.360 fact that we've all but lost our shot at one 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:21.279 point five degrees of warming, and in fact, this report 0:04:21.640 --> 0:04:24.640 makes it clear that even keeping it to two degrees 0:04:24.720 --> 0:04:28.560 or less is a stretch on the current trajectory. In 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.520 the last ten years, so the decade in which we've 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.800 known the most about climate change, what it's going to do, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.599 what it's already doing, and what we can and should 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:43.640 do to blunt those impacts, emissions have increased. So we're 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:47.960 going not just not the right direction, but precisely the 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:53.320 wrong direction. This is very bad news. It's very scary news. However, 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:57.240 I do want to draw people's attention to all of 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.120 the many ways of this report says we can and 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.880 actually do something about this. Here's how. So today I'm 0:05:04.880 --> 0:05:08.680 going to start with Chapter five, which is this totally 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:13.039 new chapter in the report that really looks at economics 0:05:13.160 --> 0:05:16.200 in a different way and upends the ways that we 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:19.760 talk about energy demand. It incorporates some really new and 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.480 interesting thinking from the field of economics as well as 0:05:23.520 --> 0:05:28.520 social science and questions this kind of long held belief 0:05:28.800 --> 0:05:33.600 that the energy market is entirely demand driven. So we're 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.160 going to hear from a couple of folks who worked 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:51.440 on that chapter that's coming up right after this quick break. Okay, 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:55.560 so each chapter of the IPCC report has two coordinating 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.240 lead authors, and they purposely choose one person from the 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.039 Global South and one person from the Global North to 0:06:02.160 --> 0:06:05.800 fill those positions. The coordinating lead author from the Global 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.360 South on chapter five is a woman named Joyashri Roi. 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.200 She's an Indian economist who specializes in the fields of 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:18.960 environmental economics, energy economics, and climate change mitigation. She's currently 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:24.359 the inaugural Bangabandhu Chair Professor at the Asian Institute of 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.360 Technology in Thailand, as well as a Professor of economics 0:06:28.680 --> 0:06:33.440 at Jadavpur University in India. I've been requesting interviews with 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.040 Professor Roy and I haven't been able to reach her yet, 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.839 but I did find some great talks that she's given online, 0:06:39.920 --> 0:06:42.599 so I'm going to pull some audio in from one 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:43.120 of those. 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:43.760 Here. 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:50.560 She's talking here about CDR or carbon dioxide removal, which 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:54.520 is something that was mentioned a lot in the IPCC report, 0:06:55.160 --> 0:06:57.920 and the author specifically made the point of saying that 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:02.800 just capturing carbon and as it's being emitted is not 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:08.960 the same as carbon dioxide removal, and they specifically called 0:07:09.040 --> 0:07:14.360 out the potential need for carbon dioxide removal. What's interesting 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:18.120 about Professor Roy's take on this here is that she 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:21.000 makes the point that, hey, we haven't even begun to 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:24.560 scratch the surface on what we could do to mitigate 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:29.560 emissions and to reduce the demand for energy in ways 0:07:29.640 --> 0:07:33.640 that also actually improve quality of life for people. So 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.640 while she's not arguing against carbon dioxide removal or CDR, 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:41.720 she's saying, hey, let's do all the other things first, 0:07:42.040 --> 0:07:45.160 so that we don't necessarily have to spend a large 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.720 amount of money on this, and we might not have 0:07:47.800 --> 0:07:52.559 to go so far as these technological solutions that aren't 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:55.160 even really available yet. We might be able to do 0:07:55.240 --> 0:08:00.400 this with reforestation, a forestation and stopping deforts station. 0:08:02.080 --> 0:08:05.200 All the reports are clearly showing that we have to 0:08:05.240 --> 0:08:08.880 look at the portfolio of action, the whole bunch of 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:12.760 actions together, and from that point of view, even one 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:18.800 point five report also shows that it is possible to 0:08:18.880 --> 0:08:23.360 mitigate in such a way so that you might not 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:28.920 need to go beyond just the reforestation or air forestations. 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.000 So there is a pathway for the whole world to 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:37.280 decide whether they want to go for high cost technological 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:41.240 intervention more and more for CDR, or they want to 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.839 mitigate more which are less costly. So when we talk 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:49.439 of finance, we need to be really looking for where 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.960 lies the list cost option where lies the most benefit. 0:08:53.440 --> 0:08:57.080 And from that point of view, you just cannot look 0:08:57.120 --> 0:08:59.640 into the CDR and how we can get the money 0:08:59.640 --> 0:09:04.040 for but we should look at as a whole group 0:09:04.080 --> 0:09:08.440 of actions with mitigation and the CDR and what kind 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.880 of CDR and in what timescale and how the money 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:16.200 will be flowing, because we must remember that. And in 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:19.320 one point five report we could show it very clearly 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:23.440 that even by looking into the mitigation options in the 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.920 supply side and add to it the demand side responses 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:32.480 ener deficiency and many other demand reduction, waste reduction and 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:36.000 many of those behavioral measures which you can include in 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:40.240 the societal scale and where you can generate more action 0:09:40.800 --> 0:09:44.760 and which are less costly, and then you reduce the 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:48.680 demand for CDR more and more. We are now seeing 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:51.520 even in the six assessment cycle that from the demand 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:56.640 side intervention you can reduce the need for CDR a lot. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:10:01.480 So because unless we make these choices the societal's scale, 0:10:01.640 --> 0:10:03.760 we will not be able to say that how much 0:10:03.800 --> 0:10:06.120 money need to go to for CDR, right, so this 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.160 is very important. I don't think we have done those 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:13.720 research well. So it might be that we might be 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:18.320 putting in money in something which we could easily do 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.520 more list cost option way and more benefit. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.839 I did manage to speak to environmental economists Julia Steinberger, 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:37.520 who was a contributing author for the chapter and whose 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.720 group at the University of Lausanne and Switzerland has done 0:10:41.040 --> 0:10:43.560 quite a bit of research on some of the economic 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:48.920 models underpenning parts of this chapter. Here's a bit from 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:58.559 our conversation. Okay, I would like to ask for your 0:10:58.559 --> 0:11:02.960 opinion on the fact that there are authors and review 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:09.079 editors and whatnot who are employees of oil companies, and 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.040 whether that creates a conflict of interest, and you know 0:11:14.360 --> 0:11:17.280 what could or should be done about that? 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:19.760 Just running how I'm just wondering how many bridges to 0:11:19.800 --> 0:11:20.240 turn here. 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.640 I know that's why I was like that there comes up. Yeah, 0:11:24.920 --> 0:11:27.120 I think question I think it is. 0:11:27.160 --> 0:11:31.040 I think it does create a conflict of interest. I 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:33.199 I know that there is a conflict of interest policy 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:36.679 in place, so everybody has to fill out forms regarding 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.480 their affiliation and obviously none of this was secret. But 0:11:39.760 --> 0:11:42.760 just because that person fills out forms does not mean 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:44.760 that they don't have other interests at heart that are 0:11:44.800 --> 0:11:48.840 not reflective of the science and the public interest, but 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:51.839 more reflective than their employer, and I think that that 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.000 you know, at this late stage, and given what we know, 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.960 and especially the kinds of things that your research has 0:11:59.000 --> 0:12:02.120 been uncovering prints since that conflict of interest is not 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:07.040 tenable in a scientific report that is examining these industries 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.120 and their role in what are past, present in future 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:12.080 is I guess. The other thing that I would point 0:12:12.120 --> 0:12:15.800 out is that a lot of climate scientists, both on 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:20.800 the physical science side but also on the sort of 0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:25.200 more mitigation side, social science side, are quite naive and 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.600 ignorant about the role of the fossil hill industry in 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.400 terms of disinformation attacking the science. And really there's sort 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:37.280 of long interest, long history in successfully shaping public perception 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:39.520 of the problem, and so a lot of people are 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:42.840 quite naive about it, and I think that that is 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:46.280 by itself a problem. So the fact that IPCC reports 0:12:46.320 --> 0:12:51.079 did not include that interest in understanding that aspect of 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:53.680 the role of industry, not just emissions, but how they've 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.360 intervened in politics and economics and consumption patterns and so 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.640 on over decades. Is that's a topic of science, and 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:05.000 I don't think that it's a topic of science that 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:09.120 has been sufficiently reflected within IPCC reports or within the 0:13:09.160 --> 0:13:10.559 climate community at large. 0:13:10.840 --> 0:13:14.360 Yeah, that's really interesting. I did see. I mean, I 0:13:14.920 --> 0:13:17.880 do feel like both in Working Group two and in 0:13:17.920 --> 0:13:20.520 this report. I haven't made it all the way through, 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.360 of course, but I'm getting there, but that there was 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:31.600 more reference to sort of entrenched interests and obstruction and 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.720 misinformation in those kinds of things that I've seen in 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.800 the past. But yeah, that's interesting to hear. Okay, So 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:41.800 I want to talk about your chapter in particular, and 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.840 was hoping that you could tell me, you know, what 0:13:45.960 --> 0:13:49.720 areas you focused on in particular in this chapter. 0:13:50.600 --> 0:13:50.960 Okay. 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:54.840 So there were two chapters where I stuck my grabby 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:57.680 little nose. So chapter three, which is when I was 0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:02.040 assigned to as a lead author, responsible for section three 0:14:02.080 --> 0:14:05.160 point seven and the box on inequality and poverty in there. 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.000 So it's the chapter. It's the section that basically says, 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:11.480 what are the long term trends in terms of what 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:16.840 are consequences of long term trajectories of mitigation and sustainable development? 0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:20.920 And so that's that's what that section does. And the 0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:23.920 other chapter I was quite involved in terms of my 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:27.320 actual my research expertise. So in chapter three it was 0:14:27.320 --> 0:14:29.320 more like, you know, do your job of reviewing the 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:33.160 literature basically, but chapter five is the one that reflects 0:14:33.240 --> 0:14:37.040 my research more. And so I was a contributing author 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:40.000 on chapter five, and a lot of my research and 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:43.160 my PhD students and sort of general group's research is 0:14:43.160 --> 0:14:45.080 pretty much all over chapter five. I think we did 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:45.600 good there. 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.440 Yeah, that's what I thought. I was like, wait, I thought, 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:51.240 I thought, Julia wie, Yeah it was five. And I 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:52.880 looked at the list and I was like, wait, how 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.160 did I confuse this? But okay, that makes sense now. 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.200 I mean I signed up for chapter five, and then 0:14:57.200 --> 0:14:59.240 they didn't choose me for it because, like you know, 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:01.320 they had to choose a whole bunch of people, and 0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:03.360 everybody wanted to be on chapter five. It's the new 0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:04.200 sexy chapter, so. 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:05.120 There wasn't really right. 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:07.960 Then I was like, oh, well, never mind. I went 0:15:08.040 --> 0:15:10.600 to the IPCC of this fand and then I was 0:15:10.640 --> 0:15:12.920 convinced to stay on in chapter three. They thought I 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:15.480 could be useful there, so and I ended up my 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:17.640 I think my section ended up being okay. 0:15:18.320 --> 0:15:20.360 Yeah. I wanted to ask you about this because I 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:24.520 feel like I'm seeing a real resurgence recently of the 0:15:24.880 --> 0:15:30.640 sort of energy poverty argument for fossil fuels, and I 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:33.000 know that you've done a significant amount of research that 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:35.680 sort of debunks the idea that you know that the 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.560 only way out of poverty is paved by fossil fuels. 0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:41.960 Yeah, but in fact, what we found, what we were 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.840 able to demonstrate, is actually the contrary that I mean, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.440 that's one of the statements that's very clearly in the supplement, 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:51.280 in the summary for policy makers is that there is 0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:55.320 no sustainable development or development full stop. But you know, 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:58.240 sustainable development is not possible with that climate medication, Like 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.040 unless you mitigate climate the impacts are get to catch 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:03.200 you every step of the way and just make like 0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:07.080 people's lives increasingly hard and miserable, especially in global seth countries. 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:10.920 And so this pathway of fossil field development is really 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.760 a myth, it's not there is no substance there because 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.080 of the destructive power that it comes with, as well 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:20.040 as the negatives. I mean, you have negatives in terms 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:21.960 of air pollution, and air pollution gets even you know, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.680 localize the air pollution on climate emissions, and that gets even 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:27.840 worse with heating and heat waves. 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:28.240 You know what I mean. 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:31.280 It's just it's just a mess. So yeah, so that 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:33.520 was that was actually quite interesting that it was that 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:37.040 we were able to make that that statement quite so clearly. 0:16:38.400 --> 0:16:41.240 Yeah. Yeah. When I saw that in the in the summary, 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.840 I was like, this will be very helpful in this 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.760 because I just it's like the zombie that will never 0:16:47.840 --> 0:16:54.680 die that that argument. Okay, great, And then for chapter five, 0:16:54.960 --> 0:16:58.160 can you walk me through some of the pieces that 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.080 either you or your students can try atributed most to 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:01.800 in that? 0:17:02.240 --> 0:17:04.520 Okay, So, actually there's one thing that we contributed to 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:08.520 that's quite We're basically all over the chapter five from 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:12.080 the sort of concept aspect to the results. There's one 0:17:12.680 --> 0:17:16.840 nice thing that So there's one piece that we contributed 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:21.480 which is the first decent living global decent living energy model. 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.959 So decent living energy is a framework that was put together. 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:26.919 I mean, I don't want to pretend like we're the 0:17:26.960 --> 0:17:31.240 only research group here, absolutely not. So living energy is 0:17:31.240 --> 0:17:34.359 something that was a research effort by Narasima Rao and 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.840 his group at Yale. But we did the first global 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:40.520 model as part of my group as in collaboration with Nausima. 0:17:41.200 --> 0:17:44.159 And so that's one of the things. And we also 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:48.960 did so basically, Millward Hopkins, that's us so the first 0:17:49.040 --> 0:17:52.240 decent and that's reflected in the summary for policy makers 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:56.040 that says that it's possible to have decent living conditions 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:59.240 for everybody at half of current energy use. So that's 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:02.200 a pretty big result because it basically puts together a 0:18:02.240 --> 0:18:04.240 lot of the things that we're talking about in chapter five. 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:06.639 It says all we need is services, we don't need 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.080 the energy use itself. Hey, let's think about how we 0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:11.360 deliver those services in a more efficient way. But when 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:14.320 we can demonstrate exists already and you get to these 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.560 results that are really quite staggering, that you can really 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:19.320 do things very, very differently. Oh yeah, So if you 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:22.280 look on page twenty five of chapter five, so that 0:18:23.000 --> 0:18:29.760 figure that basically highlights factors socioeconomic factors that allow societies 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.120 to have better living so hiring needs satisfaction at lower 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:36.639 energy use. That's the paper that comes from my groups 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:39.480 as for my PhD student. If h'm Fogel, And that's 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:41.639 a pretty cool result. I think it came in just 0:18:41.720 --> 0:18:45.679 under the wire in terms of the IPCC deadline, and 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:50.240 it basically shows that things like equality and public services 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.879 and infrastructure help a lot and extractivism, and you can 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:55.399 on the growth not so much. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:02.080 Right, So yeah, right, I feel like this whole chapter 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:07.879 is a really helpful rebuttal to the like poor people 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:10.359 need fossil fuels yip story. 0:19:10.680 --> 0:19:13.640 Yeah, because the funny thing is, so there are lots 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.480 of myths about the way we understand the economy. One 0:19:16.480 --> 0:19:18.919 of the myths is that it's demand driven. When it's not, 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:22.200 it's supply driven. So you can imagine that a phase 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:23.920 of the economy is sort of like, you know, when 0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.320 everybody's in poverty, then you know there's going to be 0:19:26.520 --> 0:19:30.359 a lot of demand that drives production. But after a 0:19:30.359 --> 0:19:35.160 certain phase, basically have an over productive industry that's constantly 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:41.919 driving productivity and competitiveness through competition. And so at that 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:44.360 point you start having overproduction and you need to find 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.520 an outlet for that otherwise you cant economic crisis. And 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:52.040 the outlet for that is various kinds of overconsumption or 0:19:52.680 --> 0:19:54.879 things like you know, find out's lessons, Like you have 0:19:54.920 --> 0:20:00.560 all these basic mechanisms for the economic production consumptions system 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.119 to not have a crisis due to overproduction. 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:06.120 We totally see with fossil fuels. I mean you see 0:20:06.160 --> 0:20:10.160 it in the in just the plastics move right now exactly. 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.679 So it's basically like production is looking for outlets. And 0:20:13.720 --> 0:20:17.720 this was identified and termed the treadmill of production by 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:22.360 Schneiberg and Gold, who are very famous American so environmental sociologists. 0:20:22.920 --> 0:20:25.240 And so this idea of the treadmill of production is 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:30.320 basically the fossil fuel industries is using the narrative of demand, 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:35.879 sort of this safe story of demand driven production to 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:40.320 sort of excuse their activities. But as soon as you 0:20:40.359 --> 0:20:43.600 look at demand, the story crumbles. That's what's really interesting. 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.320 This is the first time we've ever had a chapter 0:20:45.320 --> 0:20:48.000 on demand because there was just this really sort of 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:51.520 basic idea that demand will increase with economic growth. Everybody 0:20:51.520 --> 0:20:54.280 wants economic growth, so everybody wants demand to increase, so 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:58.119 that's untouchable. So and as soon as you start questioning it, 0:20:58.200 --> 0:21:01.560 you realize that it's a it's a god with clay 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:04.560 feet that you just can you can do a lot 0:21:04.560 --> 0:21:07.480 better with a lot less. There's nothing preventing us from 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:11.120 doing a lot better and using a lot less, including 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:15.119 resolving poverty and deprivation around the world, like material poverty 0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:16.080 and deprivation around the world. 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.560 Max Boycoff is a longtime researcher in this realm. He 0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:39.760 has specifically looked at media and climate and that's something 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:42.520 that made its way into the report for the very 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.720 first time in this mitigation report in chapter thirteen, which 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:51.159 is focused on policy role of media, not only in 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:55.879 helping to create the conditions for passing policy, but also 0:21:56.440 --> 0:21:59.040 how it has been used as a weapon to spread 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:04.280 disinformation and how various forces like the fossil fuel industry 0:22:04.400 --> 0:22:07.000 and various trade groups have tried to use the media 0:22:07.119 --> 0:22:11.639 to block policy. Boycoff runs the Media and Climate Change 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.439 Observatory at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I 0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:18.399 asked him for his take on this report and his 0:22:18.520 --> 0:22:20.760 work in it and what he would like to see 0:22:20.800 --> 0:22:25.360 people do with it. So I was hoping you could 0:22:25.400 --> 0:22:27.639 start with telling me. I know, I've heard from a 0:22:27.720 --> 0:22:30.399 couple of people that there was a push in the 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:34.639 last I don't know, five six plus years to really 0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:39.760 get more social science and social scientists involved in the 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:42.680 IPCC process, not that they weren't involved before, but just 0:22:42.760 --> 0:22:46.080 kind of like involved in a more serious way. And 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:50.840 I wonder if that holds true to your experience and 0:22:50.920 --> 0:22:54.400 kind of what you've seen that sort of look like. 0:22:55.280 --> 0:22:58.640 Yeah, I think that's right. I think you know, it's 0:22:58.680 --> 0:23:01.280 happened for several reasons, But I think that's what led 0:23:01.320 --> 0:23:04.679 to the invitation that I received back in twenty nineteen 0:23:04.760 --> 0:23:07.000 to start to get involved. I just think there's a 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:09.720 great understanding that there's much more work to be done 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.120 in the social sciences and even humanities than simply more 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.840 and more in the natural physical sciences. And so I 0:23:16.880 --> 0:23:19.360 said yes to the invitation to see what I could 0:23:19.359 --> 0:23:21.840 do to try to push things forward from a social 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:22.879 sciences perspective. 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:27.520 And what was the experience, Like, how did it go? 0:23:27.600 --> 0:23:29.719 Do you feel like you succeeded in that effort? 0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:34.600 Yeah, I have mixed feelings, But overall, I really do 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:38.119 still believe in the power of doing this work collectively. 0:23:39.520 --> 0:23:42.439 I do think that it was worth it. Although it 0:23:42.440 --> 0:23:45.080 did take a considerable amount of time. I took the 0:23:45.160 --> 0:23:47.800 job seriously. I was kind of a second wave of 0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:51.640 contributing authors. There's the two hundred and seventy eight main authors, 0:23:51.680 --> 0:23:53.240 and then I was one of the three hundred and 0:23:53.280 --> 0:23:56.440 fifty four contributing authors. But nonetheless, I spent a lot 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:59.880 of time scouring literature trying to put together some koj 0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:03.920 and contributions across a few different areas of the report, 0:24:04.640 --> 0:24:09.359 and I think that it was successful in that a 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:13.840 couple of statements appeared that I had written and contributed 0:24:13.840 --> 0:24:18.119 to that I hadn't seen before in IPCC reports. I 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:21.359 was kind of amazed at how much heavy editing it 0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:25.200 really does go on. But to the point the pieces 0:24:25.200 --> 0:24:28.000 that I'm glad are in. There are a few statements 0:24:28.040 --> 0:24:33.280 about climate conturing counter movements, and then also around media 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:37.960 and media representational practices, and so I had been asked to, 0:24:38.320 --> 0:24:41.640 you know, but by I think some forward thinking lead 0:24:41.680 --> 0:24:45.800 authors to put together some language. It was heavily scrutinized. 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:49.080 I had really pushed for a particular passage to get 0:24:49.119 --> 0:24:52.119 into the summary for policy makers that ended up on 0:24:52.200 --> 0:24:54.520 page up one and eleven of the technical document. I 0:24:54.560 --> 0:24:57.160 can get into that if you'd like, but it didn't. 0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:00.359