1 00:00:09,640 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Ami Westervelt. This 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: week a new report came out from the Inner Governmental 3 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,880 Speaker 1: Panel on Climate Change, often referred to as the IPCC Report. 4 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: It's actually three main reports plus some smaller special focused reports, 5 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: and this was the third of the big ones. It's 6 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: on mitigation, so it focuses on what do we do 7 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: about this crisis and why haven't we done it yet. Crucially, 8 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 1: this round of IPCC reports included social scientists and their 9 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,360 Speaker 1: research a lot more than previous assessments have, and you 10 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:54,279 Speaker 1: really see it in this report. In particular, there are 11 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,200 Speaker 1: new chapters on things like demand, which sounds like demand 12 00:00:59,280 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: for fossil fuel, but in fact it questions that whole 13 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 1: notion altogether and asks how we can deliver the services 14 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: that people need, getting to work, having lights on in 15 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:16,320 Speaker 1: their house, being able to cook, these sorts of needs, 16 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: while also reducing emissions. So it really tackles the question 17 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: of how do we mitigate climate and poverty. There are 18 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: also new mentions of various things in here, including the 19 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: role that colonization played in driving the climate crisis in 20 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: the first place and the role that it plays in 21 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: perpetuating the problem. This is the first time that we've 22 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: seen the media mentioned in an IPCC report. Kind of 23 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 1: wild given how much of a role the media has 24 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 1: played in both informing and not informing the public. It's 25 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: also the first mention of litigation as something that can 26 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: influence policy one way or the other. There's a lot 27 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: in this report, and because of the way that these 28 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: reports are put together, a lot of media coverage tends 29 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: to not get past this summary for policy makers that 30 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: appears at the front of the report. It's a sixty 31 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:18,440 Speaker 1: five page ish summary of the report, but it's also 32 00:02:18,560 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: the one part of the report that government representatives get 33 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: to weigh in on and have to approve altogether. So 34 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: we're talking about representatives from the governments of one hundred 35 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: and ninety five countries having to agree on the language 36 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,919 Speaker 1: and content of a document, which you can imagine does 37 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:44,440 Speaker 1: not produce the most straightforward, clearly worded document. In this case, 38 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: several things were removed and or watered down. So for 39 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that reason, and because this report is particularly important given 40 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:55,640 Speaker 1: the timing of it, I am going to spend the 41 00:02:55,639 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 1: month of April reading all three thousand pages and bringing 42 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,080 Speaker 1: you information and analysis from them. Both here on the 43 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 1: podcast and on our website at drill podcast dot com. Today, 44 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:12,760 Speaker 1: I'm looking at particularly chapter five. This is this totally 45 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: new chapter that's never been included in an IPCC report before. 46 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,559 Speaker 1: I also spoke with Catherine Mitchell, one of the coordinating 47 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:26,280 Speaker 1: lead authors, on chapter thirteen, which is focused on policy. 48 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 1: Super interesting chapter. Obstructionism comes up a lot in this chapter, 49 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:34,960 Speaker 1: as it should, and it also looks at the need 50 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 1: for what Mitchell calls enabling conditions. So this idea that 51 00:03:39,560 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: you could have all the amazing policies you want, but 52 00:03:42,600 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: if you don't have sort of a functional government, if 53 00:03:45,640 --> 00:03:49,760 Speaker 1: you don't have the ability to foster behavioral change, if 54 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: you don't have finance all of these things, then those 55 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: policies won't actually do anything. Unfortunately, my laptop totally ate 56 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: the audio of that interview, but I did manage to 57 00:04:01,160 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: catch one of the contributing authors to that chapter, Max Boycoff. 58 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,040 Speaker 1: I should say right up front that there is, as expected, 59 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 1: some pretty dire news in this report, starting with the 60 00:04:13,160 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: fact that we've all but lost our shot at one 61 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 1: point five degrees of warming, and in fact, this report 62 00:04:21,640 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 1: makes it clear that even keeping it to two degrees 63 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 1: or less is a stretch on the current trajectory. In 64 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: the last ten years, so the decade in which we've 65 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:34,800 Speaker 1: known the most about climate change, what it's going to do, 66 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,599 Speaker 1: what it's already doing, and what we can and should 67 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:43,640 Speaker 1: do to blunt those impacts, emissions have increased. So we're 68 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: going not just not the right direction, but precisely the 69 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 1: wrong direction. This is very bad news. It's very scary news. However, 70 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: I do want to draw people's attention to all of 71 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,120 Speaker 1: the many ways of this report says we can and 72 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: actually do something about this. Here's how. So today I'm 73 00:05:04,880 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: going to start with Chapter five, which is this totally 74 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 1: new chapter in the report that really looks at economics 75 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: in a different way and upends the ways that we 76 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: talk about energy demand. It incorporates some really new and 77 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: interesting thinking from the field of economics as well as 78 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: social science and questions this kind of long held belief 79 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 1: that the energy market is entirely demand driven. So we're 80 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,160 Speaker 1: going to hear from a couple of folks who worked 81 00:05:36,240 --> 00:05:51,440 Speaker 1: on that chapter that's coming up right after this quick break. Okay, 82 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: so each chapter of the IPCC report has two coordinating 83 00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: lead authors, and they purposely choose one person from the 84 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,039 Speaker 1: Global South and one person from the Global North to 85 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,800 Speaker 1: fill those positions. The coordinating lead author from the Global 86 00:06:05,839 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 1: South on chapter five is a woman named Joyashri Roi. 87 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:13,200 Speaker 1: She's an Indian economist who specializes in the fields of 88 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 1: environmental economics, energy economics, and climate change mitigation. She's currently 89 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:24,359 Speaker 1: the inaugural Bangabandhu Chair Professor at the Asian Institute of 90 00:06:24,440 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: Technology in Thailand, as well as a Professor of economics 91 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: at Jadavpur University in India. I've been requesting interviews with 92 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: Professor Roy and I haven't been able to reach her yet, 93 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:39,839 Speaker 1: but I did find some great talks that she's given online, 94 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: so I'm going to pull some audio in from one 95 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: of those. 96 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:43,760 Speaker 2: Here. 97 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 1: She's talking here about CDR or carbon dioxide removal, which 98 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: is something that was mentioned a lot in the IPCC report, 99 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:57,920 Speaker 1: and the author specifically made the point of saying that 100 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: just capturing carbon and as it's being emitted is not 101 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 1: the same as carbon dioxide removal, and they specifically called 102 00:07:09,040 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: out the potential need for carbon dioxide removal. What's interesting 103 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: about Professor Roy's take on this here is that she 104 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: makes the point that, hey, we haven't even begun to 105 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 1: scratch the surface on what we could do to mitigate 106 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,560 Speaker 1: emissions and to reduce the demand for energy in ways 107 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: that also actually improve quality of life for people. So 108 00:07:33,680 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: while she's not arguing against carbon dioxide removal or CDR, 109 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: she's saying, hey, let's do all the other things first, 110 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:45,160 Speaker 1: so that we don't necessarily have to spend a large 111 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: amount of money on this, and we might not have 112 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:52,559 Speaker 1: to go so far as these technological solutions that aren't 113 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: even really available yet. We might be able to do 114 00:07:55,240 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: this with reforestation, a forestation and stopping deforts station. 115 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 3: All the reports are clearly showing that we have to 116 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 3: look at the portfolio of action, the whole bunch of 117 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 3: actions together, and from that point of view, even one 118 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 3: point five report also shows that it is possible to 119 00:08:18,880 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 3: mitigate in such a way so that you might not 120 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 3: need to go beyond just the reforestation or air forestations. 121 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 3: So there is a pathway for the whole world to 122 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:37,280 Speaker 3: decide whether they want to go for high cost technological 123 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 3: intervention more and more for CDR, or they want to 124 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 3: mitigate more which are less costly. So when we talk 125 00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 3: of finance, we need to be really looking for where 126 00:08:49,559 --> 00:08:52,960 Speaker 3: lies the list cost option where lies the most benefit. 127 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 3: And from that point of view, you just cannot look 128 00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 3: into the CDR and how we can get the money 129 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 3: for but we should look at as a whole group 130 00:09:04,080 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 3: of actions with mitigation and the CDR and what kind 131 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 3: of CDR and in what timescale and how the money 132 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 3: will be flowing, because we must remember that. And in 133 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,320 Speaker 3: one point five report we could show it very clearly 134 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,440 Speaker 3: that even by looking into the mitigation options in the 135 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 3: supply side and add to it the demand side responses 136 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: ener deficiency and many other demand reduction, waste reduction and 137 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 3: many of those behavioral measures which you can include in 138 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 3: the societal scale and where you can generate more action 139 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 3: and which are less costly, and then you reduce the 140 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 3: demand for CDR more and more. We are now seeing 141 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 3: even in the six assessment cycle that from the demand 142 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 3: side intervention you can reduce the need for CDR a lot. 143 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:01,480 Speaker 3: So because unless we make these choices the societal's scale, 144 00:10:01,640 --> 00:10:03,760 Speaker 3: we will not be able to say that how much 145 00:10:03,800 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: money need to go to for CDR, right, so this 146 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 3: is very important. I don't think we have done those 147 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 3: research well. So it might be that we might be 148 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 3: putting in money in something which we could easily do 149 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 3: more list cost option way and more benefit. 150 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 1: I did manage to speak to environmental economists Julia Steinberger, 151 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: who was a contributing author for the chapter and whose 152 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,720 Speaker 1: group at the University of Lausanne and Switzerland has done 153 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: quite a bit of research on some of the economic 154 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 1: models underpenning parts of this chapter. Here's a bit from 155 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:58,559 Speaker 1: our conversation. Okay, I would like to ask for your 156 00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 1: opinion on the fact that there are authors and review 157 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 1: editors and whatnot who are employees of oil companies, and 158 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: whether that creates a conflict of interest, and you know 159 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,280 Speaker 1: what could or should be done about that? 160 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 4: Just running how I'm just wondering how many bridges to 161 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 4: turn here. 162 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: I know that's why I was like that there comes up. Yeah, 163 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:27,120 Speaker 1: I think question I think it is. 164 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:31,040 Speaker 4: I think it does create a conflict of interest. I 165 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 4: I know that there is a conflict of interest policy 166 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 4: in place, so everybody has to fill out forms regarding 167 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 4: their affiliation and obviously none of this was secret. But 168 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 4: just because that person fills out forms does not mean 169 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:44,760 Speaker 4: that they don't have other interests at heart that are 170 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,840 Speaker 4: not reflective of the science and the public interest, but 171 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:51,839 Speaker 4: more reflective than their employer, and I think that that 172 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 4: you know, at this late stage, and given what we know, 173 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 4: and especially the kinds of things that your research has 174 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:02,120 Speaker 4: been uncovering prints since that conflict of interest is not 175 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 4: tenable in a scientific report that is examining these industries 176 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,120 Speaker 4: and their role in what are past, present in future 177 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 4: is I guess. The other thing that I would point 178 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: out is that a lot of climate scientists, both on 179 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 4: the physical science side but also on the sort of 180 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,200 Speaker 4: more mitigation side, social science side, are quite naive and 181 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 4: ignorant about the role of the fossil hill industry in 182 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 4: terms of disinformation attacking the science. And really there's sort 183 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:37,280 Speaker 4: of long interest, long history in successfully shaping public perception 184 00:12:37,360 --> 00:12:39,520 Speaker 4: of the problem, and so a lot of people are 185 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 4: quite naive about it, and I think that that is 186 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 4: by itself a problem. So the fact that IPCC reports 187 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 4: did not include that interest in understanding that aspect of 188 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:53,680 Speaker 4: the role of industry, not just emissions, but how they've 189 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 4: intervened in politics and economics and consumption patterns and so 190 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 4: on over decades. Is that's a topic of science, and 191 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 4: I don't think that it's a topic of science that 192 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 4: has been sufficiently reflected within IPCC reports or within the 193 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:10,559 Speaker 4: climate community at large. 194 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really interesting. I did see. I mean, I 195 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 1: do feel like both in Working Group two and in 196 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: this report. I haven't made it all the way through, 197 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,360 Speaker 1: of course, but I'm getting there, but that there was 198 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: more reference to sort of entrenched interests and obstruction and 199 00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:34,720 Speaker 1: misinformation in those kinds of things that I've seen in 200 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: the past. But yeah, that's interesting to hear. Okay, So 201 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:41,800 Speaker 1: I want to talk about your chapter in particular, and 202 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: was hoping that you could tell me, you know, what 203 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 1: areas you focused on in particular in this chapter. 204 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 3: Okay. 205 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 4: So there were two chapters where I stuck my grabby 206 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 4: little nose. So chapter three, which is when I was 207 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 4: assigned to as a lead author, responsible for section three 208 00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 4: point seven and the box on inequality and poverty in there. 209 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,000 Speaker 4: So it's the chapter. It's the section that basically says, 210 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 4: what are the long term trends in terms of what 211 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 4: are consequences of long term trajectories of mitigation and sustainable development? 212 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 4: And so that's that's what that section does. And the 213 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 4: other chapter I was quite involved in terms of my 214 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 4: actual my research expertise. So in chapter three it was 215 00:14:27,320 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 4: more like, you know, do your job of reviewing the 216 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 4: literature basically, but chapter five is the one that reflects 217 00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 4: my research more. And so I was a contributing author 218 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:40,000 Speaker 4: on chapter five, and a lot of my research and 219 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,160 Speaker 4: my PhD students and sort of general group's research is 220 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 4: pretty much all over chapter five. I think we did 221 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:45,600 Speaker 4: good there. 222 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I thought. I was like, wait, I thought, 223 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: I thought, Julia wie, Yeah it was five. And I 224 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: looked at the list and I was like, wait, how 225 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: did I confuse this? But okay, that makes sense now. 226 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 4: I mean I signed up for chapter five, and then 227 00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 4: they didn't choose me for it because, like you know, 228 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 4: they had to choose a whole bunch of people, and 229 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 4: everybody wanted to be on chapter five. It's the new 230 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 4: sexy chapter, so. 231 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 1: There wasn't really right. 232 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 4: Then I was like, oh, well, never mind. I went 233 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 4: to the IPCC of this fand and then I was 234 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 4: convinced to stay on in chapter three. They thought I 235 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 4: could be useful there, so and I ended up my 236 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 4: I think my section ended up being okay. 237 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:20,360 Speaker 1: Yeah. I wanted to ask you about this because I 238 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 1: feel like I'm seeing a real resurgence recently of the 239 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:30,640 Speaker 1: sort of energy poverty argument for fossil fuels, and I 240 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 1: know that you've done a significant amount of research that 241 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: sort of debunks the idea that you know that the 242 00:15:36,000 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 1: only way out of poverty is paved by fossil fuels. 243 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 4: Yeah, but in fact, what we found, what we were 244 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:44,840 Speaker 4: able to demonstrate, is actually the contrary that I mean, 245 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 4: that's one of the statements that's very clearly in the supplement, 246 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 4: in the summary for policy makers is that there is 247 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:55,320 Speaker 4: no sustainable development or development full stop. But you know, 248 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,240 Speaker 4: sustainable development is not possible with that climate medication, Like 249 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 4: unless you mitigate climate the impacts are get to catch 250 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 4: you every step of the way and just make like 251 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:07,080 Speaker 4: people's lives increasingly hard and miserable, especially in global seth countries. 252 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 4: And so this pathway of fossil field development is really 253 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 4: a myth, it's not there is no substance there because 254 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:18,080 Speaker 4: of the destructive power that it comes with, as well 255 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 4: as the negatives. I mean, you have negatives in terms 256 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 4: of air pollution, and air pollution gets even you know, 257 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 4: localize the air pollution on climate emissions, and that gets even 258 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 4: worse with heating and heat waves. 259 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 3: You know what I mean. 260 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:31,280 Speaker 4: It's just it's just a mess. So yeah, so that 261 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 4: was that was actually quite interesting that it was that 262 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 4: we were able to make that that statement quite so clearly. 263 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. When I saw that in the in the summary, 264 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 1: I was like, this will be very helpful in this 265 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: because I just it's like the zombie that will never 266 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: die that that argument. Okay, great, And then for chapter five, 267 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: can you walk me through some of the pieces that 268 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: either you or your students can try atributed most to 269 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 1: in that? 270 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 4: Okay, So, actually there's one thing that we contributed to 271 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 4: that's quite We're basically all over the chapter five from 272 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 4: the sort of concept aspect to the results. There's one 273 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 4: nice thing that So there's one piece that we contributed 274 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:21,480 Speaker 4: which is the first decent living global decent living energy model. 275 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,959 Speaker 4: So decent living energy is a framework that was put together. 276 00:17:25,320 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 4: I mean, I don't want to pretend like we're the 277 00:17:26,960 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 4: only research group here, absolutely not. So living energy is 278 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 4: something that was a research effort by Narasima Rao and 279 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 4: his group at Yale. But we did the first global 280 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 4: model as part of my group as in collaboration with Nausima. 281 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:44,159 Speaker 4: And so that's one of the things. And we also 282 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:48,960 Speaker 4: did so basically, Millward Hopkins, that's us so the first 283 00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 4: decent and that's reflected in the summary for policy makers 284 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:56,040 Speaker 4: that says that it's possible to have decent living conditions 285 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 4: for everybody at half of current energy use. So that's 286 00:17:59,240 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: a pretty big result because it basically puts together a 287 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 4: lot of the things that we're talking about in chapter five. 288 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 4: It says all we need is services, we don't need 289 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 4: the energy use itself. Hey, let's think about how we 290 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 4: deliver those services in a more efficient way. But when 291 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 4: we can demonstrate exists already and you get to these 292 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 4: results that are really quite staggering, that you can really 293 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 4: do things very, very differently. Oh yeah, So if you 294 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,280 Speaker 4: look on page twenty five of chapter five, so that 295 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 4: figure that basically highlights factors socioeconomic factors that allow societies 296 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,120 Speaker 4: to have better living so hiring needs satisfaction at lower 297 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 4: energy use. That's the paper that comes from my groups 298 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 4: as for my PhD student. If h'm Fogel, And that's 299 00:18:39,520 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 4: a pretty cool result. I think it came in just 300 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,679 Speaker 4: under the wire in terms of the IPCC deadline, and 301 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 4: it basically shows that things like equality and public services 302 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 4: and infrastructure help a lot and extractivism, and you can 303 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 4: on the growth not so much. 304 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 5: Right, So yeah, right, I feel like this whole chapter 305 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,879 Speaker 5: is a really helpful rebuttal to the like poor people 306 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 5: need fossil fuels yip story. 307 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,640 Speaker 4: Yeah, because the funny thing is, so there are lots 308 00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 4: of myths about the way we understand the economy. One 309 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 4: of the myths is that it's demand driven. When it's not, 310 00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 4: it's supply driven. So you can imagine that a phase 311 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 4: of the economy is sort of like, you know, when 312 00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 4: everybody's in poverty, then you know there's going to be 313 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 4: a lot of demand that drives production. But after a 314 00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 4: certain phase, basically have an over productive industry that's constantly 315 00:19:35,280 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 4: driving productivity and competitiveness through competition. And so at that 316 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:44,360 Speaker 4: point you start having overproduction and you need to find 317 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 4: an outlet for that otherwise you cant economic crisis. And 318 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 4: the outlet for that is various kinds of overconsumption or 319 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 4: things like you know, find out's lessons, Like you have 320 00:19:54,920 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 4: all these basic mechanisms for the economic production consumptions system 321 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:03,119 Speaker 4: to not have a crisis due to overproduction. 322 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 1: We totally see with fossil fuels. I mean you see 323 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 1: it in the in just the plastics move right now exactly. 324 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 4: So it's basically like production is looking for outlets. And 325 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 4: this was identified and termed the treadmill of production by 326 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:22,360 Speaker 4: Schneiberg and Gold, who are very famous American so environmental sociologists. 327 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 4: And so this idea of the treadmill of production is 328 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 4: basically the fossil fuel industries is using the narrative of demand, 329 00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:35,879 Speaker 4: sort of this safe story of demand driven production to 330 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 4: sort of excuse their activities. But as soon as you 331 00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 4: look at demand, the story crumbles. That's what's really interesting. 332 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 4: This is the first time we've ever had a chapter 333 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 4: on demand because there was just this really sort of 334 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:51,520 Speaker 4: basic idea that demand will increase with economic growth. Everybody 335 00:20:51,520 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 4: wants economic growth, so everybody wants demand to increase, so 336 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:58,119 Speaker 4: that's untouchable. So and as soon as you start questioning it, 337 00:20:58,200 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 4: you realize that it's a it's a god with clay 338 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 4: feet that you just can you can do a lot 339 00:21:04,560 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 4: better with a lot less. There's nothing preventing us from 340 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 4: doing a lot better and using a lot less, including 341 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 4: resolving poverty and deprivation around the world, like material poverty 342 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 4: and deprivation around the world. 343 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 1: Max Boycoff is a longtime researcher in this realm. He 344 00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:39,760 Speaker 1: has specifically looked at media and climate and that's something 345 00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: that made its way into the report for the very 346 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: first time in this mitigation report in chapter thirteen, which 347 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: is focused on policy role of media, not only in 348 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:55,879 Speaker 1: helping to create the conditions for passing policy, but also 349 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: how it has been used as a weapon to spread 350 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 1: disinformation and how various forces like the fossil fuel industry 351 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: and various trade groups have tried to use the media 352 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: to block policy. Boycoff runs the Media and Climate Change 353 00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,439 Speaker 1: Observatory at the University of Colorado at Boulder, and I 354 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: asked him for his take on this report and his 355 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: work in it and what he would like to see 356 00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,360 Speaker 1: people do with it. So I was hoping you could 357 00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: start with telling me. I know, I've heard from a 358 00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,399 Speaker 1: couple of people that there was a push in the 359 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:34,639 Speaker 1: last I don't know, five six plus years to really 360 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: get more social science and social scientists involved in the 361 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 1: IPCC process, not that they weren't involved before, but just 362 00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 1: kind of like involved in a more serious way. And 363 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: I wonder if that holds true to your experience and 364 00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: kind of what you've seen that sort of look like. 365 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's right. I think you know, it's 366 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,280 Speaker 2: happened for several reasons, But I think that's what led 367 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 2: to the invitation that I received back in twenty nineteen 368 00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 2: to start to get involved. I just think there's a 369 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: great understanding that there's much more work to be done 370 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 2: in the social sciences and even humanities than simply more 371 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 2: and more in the natural physical sciences. And so I 372 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:19,360 Speaker 2: said yes to the invitation to see what I could 373 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: do to try to push things forward from a social 374 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:22,879 Speaker 2: sciences perspective. 375 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,520 Speaker 1: And what was the experience, Like, how did it go? 376 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:29,719 Speaker 1: Do you feel like you succeeded in that effort? 377 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I have mixed feelings, But overall, I really do 378 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 2: still believe in the power of doing this work collectively. 379 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 2: I do think that it was worth it. Although it 380 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,080 Speaker 2: did take a considerable amount of time. I took the 381 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 2: job seriously. I was kind of a second wave of 382 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 2: contributing authors. There's the two hundred and seventy eight main authors, 383 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: and then I was one of the three hundred and 384 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,440 Speaker 2: fifty four contributing authors. But nonetheless, I spent a lot 385 00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 2: of time scouring literature trying to put together some koj 386 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,920 Speaker 2: and contributions across a few different areas of the report, 387 00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: and I think that it was successful in that a 388 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: couple of statements appeared that I had written and contributed 389 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: to that I hadn't seen before in IPCC reports. I 390 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 2: was kind of amazed at how much heavy editing it 391 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 2: really does go on. But to the point the pieces 392 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: that I'm glad are in. There are a few statements 393 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 2: about climate conturing counter movements, and then also around media 394 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 2: and media representational practices, and so I had been asked to, 395 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,640 Speaker 2: you know, but by I think some forward thinking lead 396 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 2: authors to put together some language. It was heavily scrutinized. 397 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: I had really pushed for a particular passage to get 398 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: into the summary for policy makers that ended up on 399 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 2: page up one and eleven of the technical document. I 400 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,160 Speaker 2: can get into that if you'd like, but it didn't. 401 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 2: And I should have known better, just knowing that summaries 402 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,959 Speaker 2: for policymakers is the one that's subject to line by 403 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 2: line scrutiny from government delegates about one hundred and ninety 404 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 2: five countries. I think that it was a little bit 405 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 2: difficult for them to probably take it on board my 406 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 2: best guess is they just struck it. But the technical 407 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,000 Speaker 2: summary is one that's prepared by authors of the report, 408 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 2: so it does go through the review process by governments 409 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:24,280 Speaker 2: and experts, but ultimately the authors have a say there. 410 00:25:24,280 --> 00:25:27,679 Speaker 2: So that's where I'm actually, you know, I feel a 411 00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,239 Speaker 2: little bit optimistic that some of those statements made their 412 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 2: way through. 413 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 1: Would you be willing to read that passage for me? 414 00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:36,400 Speaker 4: Yeah? Yeah. 415 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:38,800 Speaker 2: As I read through it so far, I've probably found 416 00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:43,600 Speaker 2: like seven places where I think my fingerprints are keyboard 417 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 2: print is on them. But there's two that I'll highlight. 418 00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:52,000 Speaker 2: The first is on page eleven of the technical report. 419 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 2: There was just this passage at the end of a 420 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 2: sort of a table about sciences progress on the left 421 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:00,879 Speaker 2: and continuing challenges on the right. And one of the 422 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 2: continuing challenges was the statement accurate transference of the climate 423 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 2: science has been undermined significantly by climate change counter movements 424 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,440 Speaker 2: in both legacy and new social media environments through misinformation. 425 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:19,640 Speaker 2: So that was the first one that I think could 426 00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: be of interest to you and your audience. And the 427 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 2: second one is on page one eleven. In my pagination, 428 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:31,360 Speaker 2: it's a little bit longer. Here go is a letter 429 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,360 Speaker 2: rip the media shape the public discourse about climate mitigation. 430 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,520 Speaker 2: This can usefully build public support to accelerate mitigation action, 431 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: but can also be used to impede decarbonization. Global media 432 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 2: coverage across a study of fifty nine countries has been 433 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,479 Speaker 2: growing from about forty seven thousand articles in twenty sixteen 434 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: seventeen to about eighty seven thousand articles in twenty twenty 435 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 2: to twenty twenty one. Generally, the media representation of climate 436 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 2: science has increased and has become more accurate over time. 437 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: On occasion, the propagation of scientifically misleading information by organized 438 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 2: counter movements has fueled polarization with negative implications for climate policy. 439 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:17,080 Speaker 2: So the reference to those numbers comes from the work 440 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:20,119 Speaker 2: that I do based here with a group of two 441 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 2: dozen researchers called Art Media and Climate Change Observatory. The 442 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: second one that I read to you on page one 443 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,919 Speaker 2: hundred and eleven was the one that we were pushing 444 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,919 Speaker 2: for to get into the summary for policy makers but failed. 445 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, the other I mean, I saw an earlier draft 446 00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:41,480 Speaker 1: of the summary for policy Makers that did include reference 447 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: to you know, invested interest and things like that, but 448 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 1: it seems like all of that got summary. 449 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 2: Reading through the summary, he'd be interesting, who you think. 450 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 2: It's just that there's no responsibility really garnered on anyone 451 00:27:57,760 --> 00:27:57,960 Speaker 2: on that. 452 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:01,400 Speaker 1: The summary to me feels a lot like talking around 453 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,639 Speaker 1: the key issues, which is weird because the rest of 454 00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: the report actually really does a pretty great job of 455 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,119 Speaker 1: not doing that. I think it's like one of the 456 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 1: most direct IPCC reports I want, you. 457 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 2: Know, yeah, sort of, but SPM is like saying, my 458 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: car hit your car, and then I take a responsibility 459 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,440 Speaker 2: or I hit it. You know, it's just a real striking. 460 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: Right right, It's very yeah to me, Yeah, there was 461 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: like a real start contrast between the summary for policymakers 462 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: and the rest of the report. And you know, I 463 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: talked to Katherine Mitchell and a couple of other folks 464 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,000 Speaker 1: who were kind of like, well, people get too hung 465 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: up on the summary for policy makers, and you know, 466 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, like sure, government officials 467 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:56,200 Speaker 1: can you know, kind of neuter the language, but they 468 00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: can't do anything to change the underlying argument. Yeah, and 469 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: you know that's still very strong in all the chapters, 470 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 1: which I think is true. But unfortunately I also think 471 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 1: that because of the way that the IPCC release schedule 472 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: is the vast majority of media are probably not going 473 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: to make it much past the summary for policy. 474 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 2: Means, Oh, absolutely agreed. 475 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: So it's still important. Other I mean, I think if 476 00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 1: it wasn't important, the government representatives probably wouldn't fight so 477 00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: hard for certain things in it. 478 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think it's sort of a bummer because 479 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:35,680 Speaker 2: it turns out to be a bit of a smoke 480 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 2: screen for what's really the important part, which is hope summary. 481 00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 2: Because you know, like the process has been fraught since 482 00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 2: its inception in nineteen eighty eight and the first import 483 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety. The fact that one hundred and ninety 484 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 2: five government representatives have to sign off on it is 485 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 2: you know, it's it's just super problematic. It's a scientific body, then, 486 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 2: is that were the s M Center for Policymakers is 487 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 2: captured by governments? And so the distinction that I that 488 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: I pointed out about how the technical summary is controlled 489 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:10,720 Speaker 2: by the authors of the report is it actually a 490 00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:13,400 Speaker 2: lot more important than I think people ever really talk about. 491 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,040 Speaker 2: And so I'd rather people just skip the summary and 492 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: go right into the technical reports. We've got the stomach 493 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:19,760 Speaker 2: for it. 494 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not that much longer and it's like it's 495 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: much I don't know, just more more robust. 496 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that's where you can hear the voices of 497 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:33,000 Speaker 2: those of us who have written on. 498 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 1: It well, and they did put that out along with 499 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 1: the summary for policymakers. As someone who studies, you know 500 00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,400 Speaker 1: in part and you study lots of things, but I 501 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,880 Speaker 1: know one of the things is media and coverage and 502 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 1: all that. So I'm curious to hear what you think 503 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:56,719 Speaker 1: about how the IPCC sort of handles its relationship with media. 504 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 1: I saw a lot of what I'm assuming is your 505 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: stuff after thirteen around the role that the media plays 506 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: in all of this, but also just in terms of 507 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 1: the kind of the process for releasing these reports. I'll 508 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 1: just tell you that I heard from a lot of 509 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:17,360 Speaker 1: authors that like, well, we don't really expect journalists to 510 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: cover this the day it comes out, so it doesn't 511 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: really matter what time it comes out or how much 512 00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 1: time they have to read the report, because obviously it's 513 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: a three thousand page report they're not going to cover 514 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 1: the day of. And I was like, that is so cute, 515 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 1: but that's not how media actually works anymore. So I 516 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: just I feel like there's this giant disconnect between you know, Yeah, 517 00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: I don't know. One person put it to me that 518 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: they felt like that in a way, that there's more 519 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: attention paid to sort of protecting the process than the 520 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 1: report having impact. And I'm curious what you think about that. 521 00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting. The process is really fascinating and I 522 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 2: think troubling in some ways. I think the IPCC bank 523 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 2: on just being a legitimate, legitimate and high profile scientific body, 524 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:08,200 Speaker 2: and so when they got the report coming out, they 525 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,200 Speaker 2: could release it whenever they feel like it, and they 526 00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 2: know that media will cover it, and so, you know, 527 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 2: I've heard from some journalists that are frustrated, I think 528 00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 2: quite understandably by just how opaque that final Plenary negotiation 529 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 2: sessions are. I to myself and really unclear. I've just 530 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: happened to get inside, you know, insights from people who 531 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 2: are involved. Otherwise it's just not well described. And so 532 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 2: they have a fairly untransparent process. Doesn't really, you know, 533 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: bode well for the IPCC really getting out what it 534 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:44,360 Speaker 2: wants to get out. And so it's kind of living 535 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 2: by these fictions that we've you know, critiqued so much 536 00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 2: over time, is that good work will find itself to 537 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 2: the right people that we know that doesn't work. That 538 00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,320 Speaker 2: sounds a little bit unfair. I do know that there 539 00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 2: are actually there is an increasing group, a media group, 540 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 2: and they do good work with the capacity that they've got, 541 00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:04,360 Speaker 2: and so I don't mean to disparage that at all. 542 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: No, I know, I know that there's a huge capacity 543 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:12,120 Speaker 1: issue and a resourcing issue too. So I think there's 544 00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 1: basically like one person handling all the press. 545 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,760 Speaker 2: It is wild and that person is doing heroic work. 546 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, to me, that just it's like it's 547 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 1: similar to the fact that like all of the authors 548 00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 1: are just putting in tremendous amounts of work for free, 549 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 1: you know, Like I don't know. I'm like, this is 550 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,000 Speaker 1: a really important thing. It seems like maybe it's time 551 00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 1: to actually fund it appropriately. 552 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a funny thing, isn't it. Yeah, But then. 553 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: It's funny because I was I was talking to someone 554 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: else who was like, there are a lot of issues 555 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,040 Speaker 1: that I would like to see addressed, but I also like, 556 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,040 Speaker 1: don't like to talk about the issues publicly because you know, 557 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: the IPCC is so vulnerable and people are always wanting 558 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: to like take funding away from it rather than you know, yeah, 559 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: put resources towards actually solving these things. So it's just 560 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: a it's a funny thing. 561 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,600 Speaker 2: I agree, I agree, there is there's a balancing act, right, 562 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 2: Like I mean, I said it already and I'll say 563 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 2: it again, like, I support it's work. I see the 564 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 2: value of it. 565 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:19,080 Speaker 6: That's why I just dedicated the time I did to it. However, 566 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,479 Speaker 6: I think any good relationship involves honesty about what's good 567 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,160 Speaker 6: and what can improve, and so I'm also sharing that 568 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 6: with you, and it's not hopefully not to be taken 569 00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,840 Speaker 6: out of context because I think everybody recognizes. 570 00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: That there's more and better, more effective work that can 571 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 2: be done through this process. 572 00:34:36,640 --> 00:34:37,040 Speaker 7: Yeah. 573 00:34:37,239 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe this was the first time that the 574 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: report really included media in this way. Is that is 575 00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: that true? Yeah? So that's I mean, that's pretty exciting 576 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 1: that you know that it was included and that you 577 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,480 Speaker 1: were able to get in the stuff about how it 578 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: can be weaponized so easily too. It's good. 579 00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's why I said yes to it. That's 580 00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:03,439 Speaker 2: why I still think it was worth worth taking part, 581 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:05,800 Speaker 2: and I really I do also appreciate the work of 582 00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 2: the lead authors on that chapter that you refer to 583 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 2: that that is where I was contributing mostly, and they 584 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,279 Speaker 2: too had vision and commitment to seeing that through, and 585 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:18,720 Speaker 2: so I really think the lead authors did good work. 586 00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I do think that it's noticeable just to 587 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,719 Speaker 1: me as someone who reads these reports. I think there's 588 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: a very noticeable difference between AR five and AR six, 589 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: specific to like greater inclusion of social scientists and like 590 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:40,239 Speaker 1: a more kind of interdisciplinary approach in general. There was 591 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: a bunch of stuff in this report that I've never seen. 592 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 2: We're just in a really different place than we were 593 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: back then, even at AR five, and I think that's 594 00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,799 Speaker 2: led partly to this. I mean, the shift to renewables, 595 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,799 Speaker 2: the clean energy revolution, the fact that solar wind batteries 596 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:58,520 Speaker 2: have come down, you know, eighty five percent in the 597 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 2: last decade. All that stuff tributes to I think more 598 00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:06,680 Speaker 2: of an appetite, more recognition of inclusion of these important pieces. 599 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 1: Is there anything in particular in this report that you 600 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: really want to draw people's attention to, because you know, 601 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: it is a three thousand page roughly, and there's a 602 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: lot of detail in it. I think there's a lot 603 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: of things that can get missed. So yeah, I'm curious, 604 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: what are the things that you particularly want people to know. 605 00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:34,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's several. If I had to just pick, I 606 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 2: think the recognition that politics and status quo interests, not science, money, 607 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,920 Speaker 2: or technology, are now the primary barriers to meeting climate targets. 608 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 2: The fact that the IPCC can say that, even in 609 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 2: a guarded manner, shows where we are, I mean, walking 610 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 2: that tightrope of policy relevant but noticy prescripted. The mantra 611 00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 2: of the IPCC for all these years can't get away 612 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,920 Speaker 2: from the fact that the politics and status coal interests 613 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 2: play a part, and you know, hand in hand with that. 614 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 2: I think there were some fascinating moments in the news 615 00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: conference this morning. Did you get a chance to watch 616 00:37:13,120 --> 00:37:16,600 Speaker 2: that I did. I mean two things stuck out. One 617 00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:21,440 Speaker 2: is you and Secretary General Antonio Uterres. His I mean, 618 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:25,359 Speaker 2: it was very striking just how straightforward his comments were. 619 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 7: The jury has reached the verdict and it is damning. 620 00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,640 Speaker 7: This report of the inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change 621 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,799 Speaker 7: is a litany of broken climate promises. It is a 622 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 7: file of shame, cataloging the empty pledges that put us 623 00:37:43,880 --> 00:37:48,520 Speaker 7: firmly on track towards an unlivable world. We are on 624 00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 7: a fast track to climate disaster. This is a climate emergency. 625 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 7: Climate scientists sworn that we are already perilously close to 626 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 7: tipping points that could lead to cass skating and irreversible 627 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:06,160 Speaker 7: climate impacts. But high meeting governments and corporations are not 628 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 7: just turning a blind eye. They are adding fool to 629 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:13,040 Speaker 7: the flames. They are choking our planet based on their 630 00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 7: invested interests and historic investments in fossing fools. When cheaper 631 00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:23,360 Speaker 7: renewable solutions provide green jobs, energy security, and greater price stability. 632 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,360 Speaker 7: Climate activists are sometimes depicted as dangerous radicals, but the 633 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 7: truly dangerous radicals are the countries that are increasing the 634 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:36,120 Speaker 7: production of fossil fools. Investing in new fossing fool infrastructure 635 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,840 Speaker 7: is moral and economic madness. 636 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:40,520 Speaker 2: And then at the end of the press conference, I 637 00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,680 Speaker 2: think it was a question from Sarah Capran from the 638 00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 2: Washington Post Jim Ski about you know, okay, this politics 639 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 2: and status coincious. What are you going to do about it? Then? 640 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:54,040 Speaker 2: What should we do? And he went so far as 641 00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 2: to say that he was deliberately skirting the issue, and 642 00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 2: it just demonstrates that there is there are limits to 643 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,600 Speaker 2: the A PCC is an organization that can really address 644 00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,239 Speaker 2: political corporate power. And so it's waking to me that 645 00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 2: while the i PCC has taken these steps, and I'm 646 00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 2: really glad that this the passages that I shared with 647 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 2: you're in there, it shows that we can't, yeah, expect 648 00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,800 Speaker 2: too much of this body. This is something that provides 649 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 2: a foundation for further and ongoing work, and so that 650 00:39:29,200 --> 00:39:31,160 Speaker 2: that's one thing that I just sort of came away 651 00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 2: with as I've been digesting it just today. There's certainly 652 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:38,680 Speaker 2: a lot of language within the report that is that 653 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: is fascinating and into ternisting, but that kind of larger, 654 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 2: that larger kind of yeah, way in which it was 655 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:48,000 Speaker 2: presented through the press conference, I thought was striking. 656 00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: That's it for this time again. You can find more 657 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:04,359 Speaker 1: about this on our website at Drilled podcast dot com, 658 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,719 Speaker 1: and I will be bringing you more on the IPCC 659 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: report as I slowly make my way through all of it. 660 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,560 Speaker 1: If there's some part of the report that you would 661 00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:19,080 Speaker 1: like us to focus on, feel free to shoot me 662 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: a note either at Amy at Critical Frequency dot org 663 00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: or you can do that via Twitter. I'm on there 664 00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:33,400 Speaker 1: at Amy Westervelt. We're making all of these IPCC episodes 665 00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:37,960 Speaker 1: and write ups free to everyone. That is supported entirely 666 00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,000 Speaker 1: by our paying members, So if you do want to 667 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,279 Speaker 1: support more of our work, you can do that by 668 00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,839 Speaker 1: signing up either at drilled podcast dot com or at 669 00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 1: Patreon dot com slash drilled. Thanks for listening and we'll 670 00:40:52,680 --> 00:41:06,239 Speaker 1: see you next time. Back back back back