Speaker 1: It's a pleasure to talk to doctor Owen Anderson, a
Speaker 1: longtime professor at Arizona State University who is joining with
Speaker 1: the Goldwater Institute to sue Arizona State for a number
Speaker 1: of different reasons. And I don't want to steal us thunder,
Speaker 1: but it has to do with being forced to submit
Speaker 1: to DEI training and in violation not only of conscience
Speaker 1: and beliefs about race, but in violation of state law.
Speaker 1: Doctor Owen Anderson joins us. Maybe we call you Owen sir, Yes.
Speaker 2: Please do, and thank you so much for having me on.
Speaker 1: Oh, it's beyond our pleasure. This is at the top
Speaker 1: of our list of jihadds. But so, what did Arizona
Speaker 1: State to tell you you had to do and why
Speaker 1: do you object?
Speaker 2: Well, I've been actually been teaching at ASU for over
Speaker 2: twenty one years, so I've been in quite a while,
Speaker 2: and i've always you know, I've gotten good, good reviews
Speaker 2: for my teaching and my work as a professor, I
Speaker 2: published widely in my field. But then about it's about
Speaker 2: two years ago, November twenty twenty two, I got a
Speaker 2: notification that I required DEI training is called Inclusive Communities,
Speaker 2: and I think everybody who works at a state university
Speaker 2: is in favor of inclusion, and you know everybody should
Speaker 2: go to go to state university without any exception. So
Speaker 2: it sounds good inclusive communities. But when you look into
Speaker 2: the content, I mean, I think it's startling. One thing
Speaker 2: the Goldwater Institute has done is they've made the content
Speaker 2: known publicly, and anyone who reads it is kind of startled, like, wow,
Speaker 2: that's that's actually racism. What it does is it divides
Speaker 2: people up into races, and then it treats them differently
Speaker 2: based on their race, based on their skin color, which
Speaker 2: is the very definition of racism. And so I said,
Speaker 2: I'm not going to take that because it violates my conscience.
Speaker 2: I believe racism is wrong in any setting. And so
Speaker 2: I'm not going to able to earpreicipate so that it
Speaker 2: stays on my file saying as is required and I'm overdue.
Speaker 2: I'm supposed to take it once every two years. Time
Speaker 2: is coming up soon here where I won't have taken
Speaker 2: it in two years, and so I've always had this
Speaker 2: kind of threat hanging over me then that I may
Speaker 2: be disciplined for not meeting the requirement of this DEI train.
Speaker 1: You said something there owen that went by quickly, but
Speaker 1: I think it is pretty significant. And because we've observed this,
Speaker 1: observed this over and over again, people don't many people
Speaker 1: don't know what's in these so called training courses, and
Speaker 1: as soon as they're exposed to the truth, they're shocked
Speaker 1: by it. And it's it's odd, to say the least,
Speaker 1: that Arizona State has training programs that when people see
Speaker 1: their content are horrified by them. That shouldn't be going
Speaker 1: There should be much more transparency than that.
Speaker 2: Well, that's exactly right, and I think that's part of
Speaker 2: what's going to happen is that this is a state
Speaker 2: agency and I'm a state employee, and so anything that
Speaker 2: goes on needs to be known to the public. The
Speaker 2: taxpayers need to know this is the kind of thing
Speaker 2: going on. Is one thing to teach a about DEI
Speaker 2: for those who are interested. It's quite an honest thing
Speaker 2: to require it. And it goes beyond simply requiring you
Speaker 2: watch a video. There's a quiz you have to take,
Speaker 2: and so the quiz, the way the answers are set up,
Speaker 2: compels you to agree with the content. So, for example,
Speaker 2: there might be a true false question, and it says,
Speaker 2: you know something like white people don't know about their privilege,
Speaker 2: and you're supposed to say true, which means you agree
Speaker 2: with it. I can reef you like I can read.
Speaker 2: I've got some of them here, go ahead, please. Some
Speaker 2: of the content from the slides include one of the
Speaker 2: main topics is white supremacy and how the whole United
Speaker 2: States system is structurally racist. And so they'll have topics
Speaker 2: like explaining white privilege to a broke white person. So
Speaker 2: even though this person's broke, they're white, and so just
Speaker 2: in version of that, they're privileged. White fragility. There's a
Speaker 2: whole video about white fragility and how white people don't
Speaker 2: act up their responsibility for all the past evils, and
Speaker 2: that's that's one of the main things that goes on
Speaker 2: in these is that all of history leading up to
Speaker 2: the present is blamed on people for their race. Because
Speaker 2: of your race, because of your skin color, you're responsible
Speaker 2: for things that happened in the past.
Speaker 1: And then there's right and you are just assumed, well
Speaker 1: not assumed, but it's aggressively taught that you have a
Speaker 1: certain set of characteristics because of your skin color, which
Speaker 1: is the definition of racism.
Speaker 3: Well, so you decided not to take the training. Do
Speaker 3: you have any idea if you did take the training,
Speaker 3: but you said false to the true false question, how
Speaker 3: does that work?
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. Because what I did was
Speaker 2: I started going through it and I said this is wrong,
Speaker 2: and I looked at the quiz and I said, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to do these and so I never finished it.
Speaker 2: So I don't know what would have happened if I
Speaker 2: simply disagreed with the answers. But what I did was
Speaker 2: I started a substack doctor Owen Anderson on substack, and
Speaker 2: I just started talking about this stuff because I said,
Speaker 2: the public needs to know about this. This is this
Speaker 2: is not right people. I mean, the idea of a
Speaker 2: state university is a very good idea. We should have
Speaker 2: universities that people that are that are affordable for the
Speaker 2: people of the state, and you can send your children
Speaker 2: there you can afford, you know, hopefully, I mean it's
Speaker 2: gone up a lot in price, and hope you can afford.
Speaker 2: It's a good education. But then what's happened is these
Speaker 2: state universities are actively teaching a very partisan ideology and
Speaker 2: it alienates conservatives Christians. I mean We had Dennis Preger
Speaker 2: out to ASU last year, and the vast majority of
Speaker 2: our Honors college wrote a letter about how he's a
Speaker 2: white nationalist. Dennis Preger beautiful.
Speaker 1: We're talking at doctor Owan Anderson of Arizona State University.
Speaker 1: He and Goldwater Institute are suing Arizona State University for
Speaker 1: mandatory DEI training, and all of this is absolutely right,
Speaker 1: and I believe it fervently from a moral point of view.
Speaker 1: But it's also correct me if I'm wrong. It's just
Speaker 1: literally illegal in Arizona to have this sort of mandatory
Speaker 1: training that teaches essentially discrimination based on race.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. We have a law that prohibits state
Speaker 2: agencies from using state money to teach any kind of
Speaker 2: race blame or judgment based on race, and that should
Speaker 2: just be common sense. I mean, the idea is you
Speaker 2: blame a people group based on their skin color for
Speaker 2: something that you say, all those people are wrong. That's
Speaker 2: just what racism is. That's what we're opposed to. That's
Speaker 2: what Martin Luther King Junior taught us to avoid judging
Speaker 2: people based on their skin color instead of their character.
Speaker 2: So it should be obvious. But what's happened is most
Speaker 2: of this is done secretly, behind the scenes, and people
Speaker 2: don't know about it. So one thing that was interesting
Speaker 2: to me as I started my sub sac is I
Speaker 2: would get emails from parents who said I had no idea.
Speaker 2: I mean, I always assumed in a university's liberal, but
Speaker 2: I had no idea how bad it was.
Speaker 4: So let me hear what was that true false question?
Speaker 2: Again, the true false question. Let me give an example.
Speaker 2: Here's another one. I have it in front of me.
Speaker 2: Which of the following areas of the university should address
Speaker 2: DEIB so diversity, equity, inclusion belonging. There's multiple choice, but
Speaker 2: the correct answer is d DEIB should be part of
Speaker 2: every facet of the university. Right to get that question right,
Speaker 2: you have to agree that DEIV should be part of
Speaker 2: every single facet of the university. And of course I
Speaker 2: don't agree about that at all.
Speaker 1: Right, and then leaving microbiology, good luck with that, right, and.
Speaker 2: Then right, there's a big push for that in the sciences. Yep,
Speaker 2: how do you.
Speaker 4: Work that into physics? You have any idea?
Speaker 1: They try, Yeah, I've seen examples of it, and it's
Speaker 1: just it's laughable and idiotic. Now, doctor Anderson, I happen
Speaker 1: to know, you teach philosophy and religious studies, and this
Speaker 1: is kind of ani but it's got to make you
Speaker 1: insane that you have this, you know, the ebramex canny
Speaker 1: point of view that you're a racist. And you have
Speaker 1: two choices either say no, I'm not a racist, which
Speaker 1: proves you're a racist, or say yes, I'm a racist,
Speaker 1: which proves you're a racist. As a guy who's devoted
Speaker 1: your life to these subtleties of knowledge and human understanding,
Speaker 1: the fact that people would fall for a scheme that's
Speaker 1: stupid has got to make you insane.
Speaker 2: Well, one of my classes I love teaching is introductional logic, right,
Speaker 2: and so you're right. What stuns me is I'm teaching
Speaker 2: my freshman symbol logical fallacies to avoid, and then I'm
Speaker 2: seeing them by people who are advanced degrees, and so
Speaker 2: it is stunning to me. The one you just gave
Speaker 2: from IBRAMX Kennedy is a great example where where you're
Speaker 2: simply assumed that you are a racist is begs the question,
Speaker 2: and you can't say anything back or else. That just
Speaker 2: simply proves the point as well. So yeah, that's you know,
Speaker 2: I mean, it's one thing That is a mark. I
Speaker 2: love universe. See, I love studying philosophy, I love studying
Speaker 2: all subjects. But this is a real mark against an
Speaker 2: argument that says, hey, everyone should go to college. But
Speaker 2: wait a minute. Your most advanced professors can't avoid simple
Speaker 2: logical fallacies.
Speaker 3: So us talking to an education us talking to a
Speaker 3: philosophy major the other day got their graduate degree in
Speaker 3: philosophy from Berkeley, and I brought up Nietzsche, and they said,
Speaker 3: Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 4: You got to read Kant or Hume. Would you agree
Speaker 4: or not it with that? Niets you a bunch of
Speaker 4: crap you want to give you out.
Speaker 2: I think he is overrated. He appeals to people who
Speaker 2: think I want to do what I want to do.
Speaker 2: There you go, So the power of your bill a
Speaker 2: bunch of crap.
Speaker 4: There you go.
Speaker 1: Wow, there you go summarized an entire class there in
Speaker 1: thirty seconds.
Speaker 3: You're a gifted jack. You're a gift to see me
Speaker 3: a lot of time there so on. So a whole
Speaker 3: bunch of people like, so would your take me that?
Speaker 3: Like practically everybody there at the university did take that
Speaker 3: test and answered to a question like to or false.
Speaker 3: White people aren't understanding their white privilege like most people
Speaker 3: took it and said true.
Speaker 2: Well, I mean I don't have access to them. I
Speaker 2: would have to assume that's true. I have a few
Speaker 2: people who reach out to me and they said they
Speaker 2: didn't take it either, and so I do know there's
Speaker 2: a couple of us, But I think the vastman I
Speaker 2: think the people who agree with me at ASU mostly
Speaker 2: are silent because they know if I speak up, there's
Speaker 2: all kinds of subtle ways they can harass you. And
Speaker 2: I mean I've sat to faculty meetings where we're supposed
Speaker 2: to be talking about the business of our school, classes, enrollment,
Speaker 2: things like that, and we will touch on those and
Speaker 2: then we get right into left wing politics and how
Speaker 2: bad Conservatives and Christians are, and so there's all kinds
Speaker 2: of ways that you can you can be made to
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable at work, which if it was done to
Speaker 2: anyone else, they would say, hey, that's illegal.
Speaker 1: Unless you drop to your knees and pledge fealty to
Speaker 1: their religion. Yeah, exactly. Uh, doctor owan Anderson.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Well, you just said is important. It's a religion.
Speaker 2: It has all the same marks of religion. And I
Speaker 2: don't say that as a put down because I'm I'm
Speaker 2: a Christian. I'm not actually also a Christian pastor. But
Speaker 2: it has the marks of a religion in terms of
Speaker 2: having assumptions that you're not allowed to question, and then
Speaker 2: having this kind of missionary zeal where they want to
Speaker 2: convert all the young people to their religion.
Speaker 1: Well, and like some religions or even the phases of
Speaker 1: Christianity of the past, they want to hurt anyone who
Speaker 1: refuses to come around. But we're about out of time,
Speaker 1: you know. We ought to have doctor Anderson back again sometime,
Speaker 1: whether orm the air or to do a podcast. I
Speaker 1: would love to do a podcast on logical fallacies. That's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite things. Yeah, but hey, hey, stay
Speaker 1: in touch on this. We're one hundred percent on your side,
Speaker 1: rooting for you, and it's been great to talk.
Speaker 2: Thanks, thank you so much.
Speaker 4: And as you learn, Nietzsche's a bunch of crap.
Speaker 1: So just to summarize, yeah
Speaker 2: Armstrong and Getty