1 00:00:00,360 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and if you haven't heard yet, 2 00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: a lot has been happening with the Trial. First, we'll 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: be back with season two of Betriyals starting May eighteenth. 4 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: We even have a sneak peek at the end of 5 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,400 Speaker 1: this episode. Second Trial Season one is being turned into 6 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,240 Speaker 1: a documentary. More details on when and where it will launch, 7 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: so stay tuned on the feed for updates. 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 2: Looking back now, I was thinking I was way too 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 2: young for us to have a friendship, and as a 10 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: married man and me being a single young woman, we 11 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:38,560 Speaker 2: should not have had any kind of relationship or regular relationship. 12 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 1: Jennifer recently had a chance to talk with a woman 13 00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:51,480 Speaker 1: from Spencer's past, and she offers an interesting perspective. 14 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 3: So why did you decide to speak with me today? 15 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 2: I have to say that even till today, I did 16 00:01:01,600 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 2: have some reservations. Part of me feels as though I'm 17 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 2: betraying somebody I've known for twenty something years. But I 18 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 2: did want to speak to you, and I feel I 19 00:01:13,920 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 2: need to speak to you because I think as females 20 00:01:17,640 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 2: we are kind of told not to speak up. And 21 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 2: I've had my experiences with sexual assault and never spoke up, 22 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 2: and I feel it is important to be part of 23 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:33,919 Speaker 2: this in some way. I guess that historical piece another 24 00:01:34,000 --> 00:01:37,080 Speaker 2: person who may have known him for quite some time. 25 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 2: I just feel like there should be as many people 26 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: that can speak to you as possible. 27 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 3: Well. I completely understand that you guys have known each 28 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 3: other since when. 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,360 Speaker 2: Gosh, it's been about twenty five years, so quite some time. 30 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 3: How did you meet? 31 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: We met while I was interning for a radio state 32 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:00,840 Speaker 2: at the time. 33 00:02:01,320 --> 00:02:05,120 Speaker 3: Were you guys kind of seeing each other or dating? 34 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 3: How would you describe that in the beginning. 35 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, in the beginning, absolutely not. He was a married man, 36 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 2: had little children. But something did change once he did 37 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: get a divorce, you know, it became a sexual relationship. 38 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: We always maintained a friendship and it kind of was 39 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 2: off and on. 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:33,519 Speaker 3: How was he back then? 41 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:40,239 Speaker 2: He was always extremely friendly, extremely giving of his time, 42 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: very very positive, and always giving compliments. You really felt 43 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:50,760 Speaker 2: like he was with you no matter when, whether we 44 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: were just strictly friends or more than friends, extremely complimentary 45 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 2: and he made you feel so special all the time. 46 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, and that behavior is so similar with everyone across 47 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 3: the board. 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: Yeah. And you know, listening to the podcast, there was 49 00:03:11,520 --> 00:03:14,239 Speaker 2: a lot of what I heard that I didn't experience. 50 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,960 Speaker 2: I guess, you know, I'm fortunate that I didn't experience 51 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 2: some of those negative things. I didn't see those sides 52 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:24,959 Speaker 2: of him, and it makes me really feel for those 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: who were traumatized. 54 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 3: And he didn't to me either. 55 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,240 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, for me. 56 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 3: I think it's because he knew me enough to know 57 00:03:36,200 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: how to speak with me or treat me things like that. 58 00:03:40,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 3: I feel like maybe it was similar with you. He 59 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 3: knew he might not be able to get away with 60 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 3: some of this stuff. Hmm, that he could get away with. 61 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: I think you're You're pretty spot on right there, because 62 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 2: we didn't have the type of relationship where we were 63 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,440 Speaker 2: so called committed, so if anything were to go wrong, 64 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 2: just by and I think he realized that. 65 00:04:05,200 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: So, you guys were kind of seeing each other just whenever, 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 3: on and off. Do you remember him talking about getting 67 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:15,360 Speaker 3: married again. 68 00:04:17,040 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 2: I do, And he was excited. He was really happy 69 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: to reconnect it with you. I do recall that being 70 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:33,599 Speaker 2: a joyous time for him. He just really felt that 71 00:04:33,640 --> 00:04:36,760 Speaker 2: you were his person. And I think there was a 72 00:04:36,839 --> 00:04:41,000 Speaker 2: period where maybe he felt and I certainly can't speak 73 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: for him, but perhaps he felt like, okay, this is 74 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 2: this is it all? This is going to stop now, 75 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to focus on this person. 76 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,360 Speaker 3: But it didn't stop, right. I know he did some 77 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 3: work for you, and you guys would see each other, 78 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:05,719 Speaker 3: but how did he justify having this affair? After he 79 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 3: and I were married. 80 00:05:07,640 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 2: We would check in periodically, I'm like, how are things going. 81 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:15,280 Speaker 2: He would tell me about the wine bar that you 82 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 2: guys open, and was really excited and would tell me, 83 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 2: you know, oh, she's traveling a lot. But then I 84 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 2: would hear sort of things to justify why we could 85 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 2: have a relationship beyond a friendship. Again, he would say 86 00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: things like we're not happy. I don't know if he 87 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 2: needed to have that in his mind as well, but 88 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: he certainly sold it as though you guys were really 89 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 2: on the out right and I know that you're not 90 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 2: asking this to shame me. However, it happened, and I 91 00:05:57,440 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: obviously do feel shameful. I would not want that to 92 00:06:02,600 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: be done to me. Sure, but you know, he's like, well, 93 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 2: my wife is going to be out of town. Why 94 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,120 Speaker 2: don't you come check out the wine bar on a Saturday. 95 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 2: I thought, Okay, why not. It's going to be harmless 96 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 2: and you know, it wasn't just a harmless, friendly visit. 97 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 2: It was an intimate visit. But he certainly sold it 98 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: as though you were still living together. You were still 99 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:36,279 Speaker 2: on paper married, but emotionally you guys were not together. 100 00:06:37,320 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: Anything after that was kind of off and on. Every 101 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: so often we would check in and it'd been a 102 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:48,360 Speaker 2: long time, and I don't know why. I was like, 103 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,880 Speaker 2: I need to google, and I don't google people. I 104 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 2: don't ever google myself. I never google. And I googled 105 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:02,120 Speaker 2: and I saw his mugshot pop up, and I was floored, floored. 106 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 2: I thought, what could this man have possibly done? I 107 00:07:06,560 --> 00:07:11,800 Speaker 2: would never ever think that he would be arrested for anything. 108 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: And even when I read the stories and I read 109 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 2: the reports, there was part of me that thought, this 110 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: has got to be a mistake. This has to be 111 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 2: a mistake. 112 00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: Because you know Spence, he had all these accolades and 113 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 3: all of you know, everybody loved him. Who would believe it? 114 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: Right? Everybody has that persona that they present when they 115 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 2: want to to the masses. I mean, how many times 116 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 2: do you hear people saying I don't believe it. They 117 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: were so nice, right, right? 118 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 3: What did you think about the fact that it was 119 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,080 Speaker 3: a student of his. 120 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,720 Speaker 2: I immediately thought he has kids that age. Would he want 121 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 2: that to happen to his children? I was floored and 122 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: hearing her story was I mean, how she was extremely 123 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 2: brave to stand up. 124 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 3: Right. I'm hoping by us talking about these things, it 125 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 3: will encourage people to speak up and to feel safe 126 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,160 Speaker 3: in doing that. 127 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:25,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and first and foremost victims have to feel safe 128 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:27,840 Speaker 2: enough to say something. 129 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, did you hear that last conversation with us? 130 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 2: I did? I did, And I commend you for doing that. 131 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 2: I don't know if I could. That had to have 132 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 2: been the most difficult conversation of your life, one of them. 133 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,679 Speaker 2: He was not remorseful. He certainly sounded as though he 134 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 2: was the victim because he was incarcerated, right, And it's 135 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,120 Speaker 2: unfortunate because this pattern will just continue. He won't be 136 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:15,080 Speaker 2: able to break this cycle. So it really was upsetting 137 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 2: to hear him. 138 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 3: I know. I mean, that's my fear now that he's out. 139 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:21,960 Speaker 2: It's so unfortunate. 140 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:26,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, if you saw Spence, what do you think you 141 00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:28,040 Speaker 3: would say to him or do? 142 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:35,080 Speaker 2: Wow, that's a great question. The first thing comes to 143 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 2: mind is how dare you? Who are you you're certainly 144 00:09:39,800 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 2: not the person I knew all these years. Yeah, after 145 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 2: hearing these stories, I really really really feel for these 146 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: women who've experienced that manipulation, and especially those who who 147 00:09:56,760 --> 00:09:58,880 Speaker 2: were assaulted. And we're too young. 148 00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 3: They were too young, yes, to be lied to and 149 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 3: manipulated and groomed in all of those horrible things. 150 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,720 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, their lives are forever changed. 151 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:17,439 Speaker 3: Forever changed. And I don't know that he's capable of remorse. 152 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:22,040 Speaker 2: I absolutely agree with you, And you're obviously doing this 153 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,679 Speaker 2: for the masses, you know, for those that are listening 154 00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: to feel that they can have a voice, But you're 155 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 2: also doing a lot for those who have been victims 156 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 2: and feel like they have a safe space to speak. 157 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 2: So I hope that you understand that as well. 158 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 3: Thank you very much for saying that. I appreciate it. 159 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, it's true. 160 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,679 Speaker 3: Well, I know this wasn't easy for you. I am 161 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 3: grateful though, that you're willing to speak out, because I think, 162 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 3: especially as women, to be honest, to have these kind 163 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:05,200 Speaker 3: of conversations and get past kind of the yuckiness of 164 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 3: it and you know that part, but then talk about 165 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 3: the real underlying issue. Yeah, hopefully we'll just kind of 166 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 3: keep doing this work, you know. I mean, if we 167 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 3: can have more open and honest conversations, maybe we can 168 00:11:22,800 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 3: make a difference. 169 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:26,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's my pleasure. Jen. I'm glad that we could 170 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 2: speak today. 171 00:11:29,480 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: And thanks to you guys, our Betrayal community, and get ready, 172 00:11:33,640 --> 00:11:36,599 Speaker 1: we'll be back with season two of Betrayal starting May eighteenth. 173 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:40,320 Speaker 1: It's about a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about, 174 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:44,480 Speaker 1: but we'll confront it head on. Here's a sneak peek. 175 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 4: My husband and I were opening a business. His first 176 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 4: job was that very next day. One of the clients 177 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 4: had asked if they could bendmo him, so he'd called 178 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 4: me that morning September twenty ninth, twenty twenty one. He 179 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 4: was like, I need you to set up my business Venmo, 180 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 4: and I was like, all right, use your name and 181 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,960 Speaker 4: password for whatever email is connected to your Venmo. So 182 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 4: he sent me the log in for his eCloud and 183 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 4: as I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back. He 184 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 4: was like, Oh, don't worry about it, we'll do it 185 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 4: together when we get home. Like, I'm sorry, it's going 186 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,400 Speaker 4: to be too much, Like, don't do it. I knew 187 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:34,839 Speaker 4: by the tenor of his voice that he was trying 188 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 4: to hide something. I thought maybe he bought something they 189 00:12:38,000 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 4: didn't want me to know about. There was nothing in 190 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 4: his photos, and then I scrolled down, and that's when 191 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 4: I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. You know, 192 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 4: when you open your photos, it's going to show you 193 00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 4: like a whole bunch of them at once. I slammed 194 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 4: my computer shot, what the hell did I just see. 195 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 2: That? 196 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: Season two of Betrayal