WEBVTT - Mind of a Murderer 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:08.440 While there are many similarities between psychopaths and sociopaths, there 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:09.760 are many differences too. 0:00:10.960 --> 0:00:13.440 You're somebody who has had such close contact with so 0:00:13.560 --> 0:00:17.560 many of these prolific killers that it's frankly probably impossible 0:00:17.600 --> 0:00:20.280 to boil it down to one key ingredient. 0:00:21.680 --> 0:00:24.680 His first killings were actually a mass murder, and after 0:00:24.720 --> 0:00:27.000 that with his second killing, is where he really became 0:00:27.000 --> 0:00:27.800 a serial killer. 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:37.640 This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of Kat's Studios 0:00:37.640 --> 0:00:44.160 and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode seven, Mind of a Murderer. 0:00:45.800 --> 0:00:49.360 I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Kat's Studios, with Stephanie 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:54.680 Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. In the aftermath of the senseless 0:00:54.760 --> 0:00:59.800 tragedy of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, and Kayla 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:04.360 Solvs's murders on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two. There are 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:09.399 countless unanswerable questions. Some will be answered a trial, and 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.800 many may linger forever. We can't know what was in 0:01:12.840 --> 0:01:15.800 the murderer's mind, or even at this point who the 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.240 murderer is. The accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:23.319 in a court of law, but in an effort to 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:27.039 try and understand the unthinkable and offer context and perspective 0:01:27.080 --> 0:01:30.399 to the inner workings of violent criminals. Stephanie speaks with 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:34.200 doctor Scott Bond, a criminologist and author of books including 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.560 Why We Love Serial Killers The Curious Appeal of the 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:45.320 World's Most Savage Murderers. Here's Stephanie, how. 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:47.640 And why did you even get in this business to 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:48.200 begin with? 0:01:48.720 --> 0:01:52.360 Well, in terms of the origin of my interest in 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:55.440 all things that go bump in the night, I really 0:01:55.480 --> 0:01:58.480 have to go back to my childhood because I was 0:01:58.520 --> 0:02:03.160 always fascinated by human nature, by human motivations, both the 0:02:03.200 --> 0:02:06.680 good and the bad. So I always was fascinated by 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:10.600 sort of what we would perceive as evil or the 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:15.560 criminal mind, but delving deeper than just the stereotypes and 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:19.360 just the superficial stamp of evil it's often placed on this. 0:02:19.760 --> 0:02:22.480 So I, throughout my entire life, I've always wanted to 0:02:22.480 --> 0:02:26.640 penetrate stereotypes and dig beneath the surface and truly understand 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.079 motivations and behavior. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.720 Do you believe people are born evil or is that 0:02:32.800 --> 0:02:36.160 conditioning environment? I know that's a loaded question, but do 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:37.160 you have a feeling on that? 0:02:37.720 --> 0:02:42.520 Well, yeah, the word evil is a very explosive, powerful 0:02:42.639 --> 0:02:45.600 and dangerous word in my mind, because once you put 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:49.200 that stamp of evil on a group or an individual, 0:02:49.600 --> 0:02:52.920 there's really no room for discussion any longer because you 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.120 can't have a meaningful conversation with evil. What can you 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:58.920 do with evil? You can exterminate it, right, so you 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.560 basically eliminate all other possibilities. And I think that in 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.240 criminology and sociology we call that reductionism. And once you 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.720 place a label on something, it's really hard to remove 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.840 that label. So in terms of evil, does evil exist, Yes, 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:17.720 but I believe that it is manifested in actions and 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.840 deeds and thinking. But I don't believe that there is 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:25.560 an evil gene. I don't think anyone is born inherently evil. 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.680 I think that once again, evil is manifested in the 0:03:28.720 --> 0:03:31.519 things that people do, and in terms of our people 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:34.840 born that way. Well, that gets to the old nature 0:03:34.960 --> 0:03:38.400 versus nurture debate, And based upon all of my study 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.240 and experience, like most things in life, it's more complicated 0:03:42.240 --> 0:03:45.480 than one would seem on the surface, and in fact 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.840 it's a combination of nature and nurture. And in the 0:03:48.880 --> 0:03:52.680 case of serial killers, for example, about seventy five percent 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:57.280 of all serial killers are either psychopaths or sociopaths, and 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:02.960 according to the American's psychiatric clinically speaking, that means that 0:04:03.040 --> 0:04:07.480 they are not mentally ill in terms of a clinical diagnosis, 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:12.200 they are what are known as antisocial personality disorders, for 0:04:12.280 --> 0:04:16.320 which there is no cure. While there are many similarities 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:20.400 between psychopaths and sociopaths, there are many differences too. That 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.840 one thing that they have in combination, of course, is 0:04:22.960 --> 0:04:26.960 just a disdain toward the feelings of others and a 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.040 complete rejection of the laws, rules and more rays of society. 0:04:31.279 --> 0:04:34.279 And they don't mind hurting people to get what they want. 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:38.479 They tend to be very opportunistic, aggressive and goal oriented, 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.800 and they don't care who they step one to get 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:41.719 to their goal. 0:04:44.839 --> 0:04:50.159 Because people often use the terms sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:53.799 as well as sometimes more widely than is warranted, Stephanie 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:57.279 asked Scott Bond to extrapolate on the distinctions between and 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:58.320 origins of the two. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:05.120 Psychopaths are a function of nature and sociopaths are a 0:05:05.160 --> 0:05:11.200 function of nurture, sociology, socialize. That's hence sociopath a psychopath 0:05:11.640 --> 0:05:15.719 is born with a brain that simply doesn't function like 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:22.239 the normal human brain. The psychopathic brain is incapable of 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:26.719 an emotional connection with other human beings. I like to 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.120 use the analogy of a say, a hair dryer. If 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:32.400 you pull the cord out of the wall, you've got 0:05:32.400 --> 0:05:35.039 a pretty useless hair dryer. Well, in the case of 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:40.599 empathetic understanding and emotional connection, a psychopath is simply disconnected. 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:44.880 They can't feel it. They're incapable of forming emotional bonds 0:05:44.880 --> 0:05:51.839 with other people. But the sociopath is different. They are 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:57.320 born with a normal functioning brain, but over time they 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:02.000 become conditioned into predatory behavior, and an example of that 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:06.520 is through trauma, through abuse, through neglect, and to torture 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:12.040 and torment. And sociopaths are actually much more common. They 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.159 outnumber psychopaths about eight to one in terms of their 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:21.000 existence in society. And psychopaths are more dangerous because of 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:25.359 the fact that they simply do not have a feeling 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:27.960 when they hurt someone else, and they don't know fear. 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:32.320 They're unflappable. Nothing bothers them. If you think about it, 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:35.840 it makes them pretty much perfect killing machines. 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.520 Because they lack empathy and They also are not petrified 0:06:41.640 --> 0:06:43.839 of the law and don't have the same level of 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:48.239 shame and guilt and human emotion that would come across 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.600 as obvious. If you were considering something violent, I think 0:06:51.640 --> 0:06:53.360 you might have told me this. Is it true that, 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:57.440 of course, not all psychopaths become serial killers. In fact, 0:06:57.480 --> 0:07:00.680 there are many psychopaths that probably run very fancy tech 0:07:00.720 --> 0:07:03.360 companies and our industry makers. 0:07:03.640 --> 0:07:09.320 However, most serial killers do have some sort of psychopathic behavior. 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:10.160 Is that accurate? 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:13.840 You described it very well. There is an area of 0:07:13.960 --> 0:07:18.400 overlap between psychopaths and serial killers, and in the case 0:07:18.440 --> 0:07:21.640 of serial killers, it's a big overlap. But by no 0:07:21.800 --> 0:07:26.120 means are all psychopaths serial killers, and not all serial 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:32.600 killers are psychopaths. There are overrepresentation of psychopaths in the 0:07:32.720 --> 0:07:37.960 bastions of power, whether it be in business, finance, guess what, politics, 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:43.680 and even things like neurosurgery, any type of field which 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:49.920 demands incredible focus and discipline, guess what, psychopaths tend to 0:07:49.960 --> 0:07:53.480 do very well because they're unflappable. When it comes to 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:59.080 serial killers, at least seventy five percent are either psychopaths 0:07:59.160 --> 0:08:02.760 or sociopaths. And of that, let's say it's seventy five percent, 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:06.840 probably fifty percent of the total, or two thirds of 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.640 that group are psychopaths. So psychopaths do make up the 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:15.760 largest single group among serial killers. Why they're almost perfectly 0:08:15.800 --> 0:08:17.520 born bred killing machines. 0:08:18.000 --> 0:08:21.200 If somebody is a psychopath, do they know it? 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:26.440 It's a great question. And they are very good at compartmentalizing, 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.920 and so they can have multiple realities which they take 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:37.920 very much as proof depending upon which compartment they're in. 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:41.680 And I'm not describing multiple personality to disorders here. I'm 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:43.680 talking about an individual and I'm going to use a 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.520 specific example who I am very familiar with through correspondence 0:08:47.800 --> 0:08:51.240 and long term connection, and that is Dennis Rader, who 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:55.160 called himself because he's a psychopath BTK, which stands for 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.920 buying torture kill. 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:02.120 From almost the moment of accused murderer Brian Coberger's arrest 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:05.280 in December twenty twenty two, his name has been used 0:09:05.280 --> 0:09:08.360 in the same sentences as BTK. In the course of 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:13.000 his criminology education, the accused studied under a renowned BTK expert, 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:18.920 and many have theorized about commonalities between the two. Here's Stephanie. 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.840 I had heard also that Brian Coberger for certain had 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:27.760 to have been a study of BTK in his murderous ways, 0:09:27.920 --> 0:09:29.800 and there does seem to be some alignment in that 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.400 also the intimacy factor. So in Brian Coberger's case using 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.000 the knife, if in fact that's accurate, you know, it's 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.199 close contact that is considered a very intimate kill, much 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:40.000 like strangulation. 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:45.040 And it's sexual too, the penetration of it sexual status. 0:09:45.360 --> 0:09:47.120 And this goes all the way back to Jack the 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:51.319 Ripper who hated women, and so what more vile thing 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:53.800 than you can can you do than penetrate them over 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:56.600 and over, you know, with a knife. So I really 0:09:56.600 --> 0:10:00.560 think there was a deep seated underlying insecurity there and 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.160 actually an anger toward women that may have well been 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.160 manifested through these murders with a knife. 0:10:05.440 --> 0:10:07.199 Can you just give us a little brief history on 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:10.400 BTK for anyone who doesn't know that case as closely. 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.200 Dennis Raider grew up in Wichita, Kansas. He had a 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.240 relatively normal childhood. He was a boy scout. He loved knots, 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:23.200 which was a foreshadowing for things later. He did have 0:10:23.840 --> 0:10:28.040 some compulsions throughout his youth. For example, he was obsessed 0:10:28.080 --> 0:10:32.319 with blood. He was obsessed with dismemberment. And he at 0:10:32.360 --> 0:10:35.480 the age of ten is where the seed was really planted, 0:10:35.679 --> 0:10:38.600 because he witnessed his grandmother kill a chicken in the 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:42.800 backyard on her farm for dinner. And he became sexually 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.280 aroused at the age of ten, but he didn't even 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:46.800 know what it was. At ten, he didn't even know 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:49.240 what it was, but he knew he liked that sensation, 0:10:49.679 --> 0:10:53.800 and he nurtured that over time, and he became a 0:10:53.840 --> 0:10:57.360 peeping tom and he would break into women's homes, steal 0:10:57.400 --> 0:11:01.960 their underwear. He would fantasize and great lengths and have 0:11:02.200 --> 0:11:07.560 fetish rituals and also sexually release himself. That fed this, 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.880 and over time, as he reached early adulthood, he began 0:11:12.000 --> 0:11:15.439 trolling women, that's what he referred to it as in Wichitak, Kansas, 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:18.480 watching them come and go. And he put together a 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:22.560 whole list, a whole list of potential victims, a card 0:11:22.640 --> 0:11:26.920 cataloged almost of photographs and details on someone that he 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:31.240 might kill because he was obsessed. This hunger was growing 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:35.000 inside of him, but all the while outside he was 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:38.280 a normal seeming guy. He was gone to night school, 0:11:38.600 --> 0:11:41.360 he got married, he was starting a family, but by 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.840 age twenty eight he couldn't stand it any longer. It 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.040 reached what I like to call it a tipping point, 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:49.839 and he reached the point where he had to kill 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.840 for the first time. And he had set his sights 0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:57.120 on a family named Ottero, a Latino family in Wichita, Kansas, 0:11:57.280 --> 0:12:00.800 and he was obsessed with the mother and the beautiful 0:12:00.880 --> 0:12:04.559 eleven year old daughter, Josephine, and he went there one 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:08.320 morning in January of seventy four, but things went awry. 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.360 He didn't expect that four members of the family would 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:18.319 actually be there, the mom, dad, the little son, and Josephine. 0:12:18.480 --> 0:12:20.120 But as he told me, he said, I didn't get 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:23.600 all dressed up for nothing, And being the unflappable psychopath 0:12:23.679 --> 0:12:26.480 that he was, he was armed with a gun. He 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:28.719 went in the back door and he told them, as 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.559 long as you cooperate, no one will get hurt. I'm 0:12:31.600 --> 0:12:35.040 here to simply rob you. They complied, and then he 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:39.360 became buying torture kill for the very first time, and 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:44.920 tortured and killed every member of the family, living out 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:49.480 the fantasies that had been developing for fifteen years. And 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.480 so his first killings were actually a mass murder. And 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.400 after that with his second killing is where he really 0:12:55.400 --> 0:12:58.200 became a serial killer. But he ultimately killed ten people. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.480 He ultimately killed ten people that we know. I suspect 0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:03.640 there might be others out there and they're looking at 0:13:03.640 --> 0:13:04.640 cold cases. Now. 0:13:07.640 --> 0:13:11.640 Scott Bond continues his explanation of how many psychopaths are 0:13:11.679 --> 0:13:16.920 pathological in their capacity to compartmentalize. Here's Scott with Moron 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:19.760 how BTK explained it to him. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:25.040 He described it as his multifaceted life is like a 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:29.960 photographic cube. You know, maybe you remember those photocubes where 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:31.960 there'd be a different picture on each side of the 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:34.400 cube and you look at it that way. He sees 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.240 his life that way. And so when he's looking at 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.520 the picture that is daddy Dennis with his two children, 0:13:40.800 --> 0:13:44.559 that's all he sees. And so the psychopathic serial killer 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.480 is on a different side of the cube that is nonexistent. 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:51.439 So when he's in daddy mode, there is nothing else. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:55.000 He is the religious president of his Lutheran church association, 0:13:55.160 --> 0:13:58.240 which he truly was. He's the doting father, he is 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:01.400 the boy Scout leader in town. He is the toast 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:06.000 of Wichita, Kansas. People loved him. Flip that thing now 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:10.439 to BTK buind torture kill. Now he is the bloodthirsty, 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:17.200 completely psychopathic, malignant narcissist, malignant narcissist meaning narcissistic tendencies with 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.600 sadism thrown in for good measure. And it's a completely 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:25.280 different thing. And yes, he knows exactly what he when 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.840 he's in BTK mode. He knows who he is, he 0:14:27.920 --> 0:14:31.360 knows what he wants. He just doesn't care. He told me, 0:14:31.480 --> 0:14:33.720 he said, Scott, I know that it's wrong to kill. 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:38.080 I know that society has these rules. I don't care. 0:14:38.720 --> 0:14:42.240 Nothing is going to stop me. And he told me, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:44.640 he said, the reason that he's compelled to do this, 0:14:44.800 --> 0:14:48.440 in fact, is because he was a strangler. And when 0:14:48.480 --> 0:14:50.840 he had his hands around the neck of his victim 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.760 and he crushed their throats and saw the light of 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:58.200 life distinguish in their eyes, he said, at that moment, 0:14:58.600 --> 0:14:59.960 I know that I am God. 0:15:00.680 --> 0:15:04.680 He is such a scary example of someone who's able 0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:07.760 to live in both lives. And I've heard interviews with 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:09.880 his daughter, who by all account says he was like 0:15:09.920 --> 0:15:12.520 the greatest, most loving dad, like you just reported. And 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:14.880 I guess that's what's so scary about it is just 0:15:14.960 --> 0:15:17.440 the idea that somebody can be so functional in the 0:15:17.480 --> 0:15:22.000 world and be so dysfunctional in the world and kind 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:26.400 of TikTok between both universes with very little tells. So 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:27.880 how did you get involved with BTK? 0:15:28.520 --> 0:15:30.800 I was writing this book, which is why we love 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.320 serial killers, the curious appeal of the world's most savage murderers. 0:15:34.800 --> 0:15:38.160 And what I wanted to do is I wanted to 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:43.080 understand serial killers from different perspectives. I'm a criminologist, but 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:47.600 I'm trained in sociology, and so from a sociological perspective, 0:15:48.000 --> 0:15:52.680 everything has its place and meaning and even purpose in society. 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.720 And what's the mosaic? How do these things fit together? 0:15:56.120 --> 0:15:59.680 So I sought out the news media who have reported 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.280 on cases like BTK and Son of Sam. I developed 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:06.280 a very great friendship with Roy Hazelwood, one of the 0:16:06.560 --> 0:16:10.280 premier FBI profilers from whom I learned so much, and 0:16:10.560 --> 0:16:13.400 unfortunately he's passed away a few years ago. But I'd 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.160 also decided I've got to go to the serial killers 0:16:17.200 --> 0:16:23.080 themselves and try to understand their own identities that they 0:16:23.120 --> 0:16:26.920 create for themselves, because some of them and BTK is 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:29.160 sitting up there at the top of the heat is 0:16:29.200 --> 0:16:33.400 a highly narcissistic individual that was very aware of his 0:16:33.440 --> 0:16:38.680 own narrative and wanted to create his profile. And he 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.440 even named himself. I mean he called himself bind, torture, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:46.760 kill BTK, because that's what he does. And after his 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:49.880 first couple of killings, when he didn't believe that he 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.200 had gotten enough notoriety, he started writing to news media 0:16:53.240 --> 0:16:55.640 in which ofa Kansas saying, how many people do have 0:16:55.680 --> 0:16:58.200 to kill before I get a little notoriety here? I 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:01.560 want to little press, right, So I thought, who better 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:10.040 to represent the truly narcissistic, self absorbed psychopath than BTK. 0:17:13.640 --> 0:17:16.200 Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 0:17:16.240 --> 0:17:27.000 a moment. Scott Bond explains what was occurring between BTK 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:30.000 and law enforcement in the three decades between committing his 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:35.480 heinous crimes and when authorities captured him. 0:17:35.800 --> 0:17:39.280 All the while, he was playing cat and mouse with 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.080 the police because he's the ultimate control freak, and he 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:46.280 would send letters to law enforcement, letters to the media. 0:17:46.680 --> 0:17:50.040 He would send personal items from his victims so that 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:52.600 they would be sure that this was actually him, and 0:17:52.640 --> 0:17:56.560 he would lay clues and basically demonstrate that he was 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.800 the puppet master. He was in control, He was much 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.879 smarter than law enforcement, and he played this game for 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.480 thirty years before it ultimately caught up to him and 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:10.399 he was finally apprehended. But all the while he was 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.800 living this dual life where he was the boy Scout 0:18:13.840 --> 0:18:16.680 leader in town, he was the president of a Lupian 0:18:16.760 --> 0:18:19.359 church association. It's absolutely incredible. 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.119 And at that time when you spoke with him, and 0:18:22.160 --> 0:18:25.160 in the times that you've had these conversations with him, 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:28.720 do you get a cold chill? Does it seem obvious 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:32.679 in retrospect that he was somebody who was capable of 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:35.600 this level of violence because he was really top of 0:18:35.600 --> 0:18:39.520 the list of one of the more sick and sadistic 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.480 violent murderers. 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:42.879 Do you get that sense? 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.000 Because he always seemed a little like you said, a 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:46.720 regular man. 0:18:47.240 --> 0:18:50.080 Let me say first of all, Roy Hazelwood once again, 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.400 who was my friend, who was one of the pioneer 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:56.040 FBI profilers. Roy told me, he said, without a doubt, 0:18:56.359 --> 0:18:59.919 the most cold blooded, stone cold psychopath that he had 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:03.320 ver sat across from was Dennis Rader. So you have 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.679 it from you know, from Hazelwood himself. Now in my case, 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:10.919 because I am not law enforcement, I'm not FBI. I 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:13.200 wasn't able to sit with him. So all of our 0:19:13.400 --> 0:19:16.720 of our communication is through correspondence. But we are talking 0:19:16.840 --> 0:19:21.280 voluminous correspondence over a period of years. And yes, the 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:26.679 detachment that you're talking about is always present. His writings 0:19:26.760 --> 0:19:31.760 are almost business like and clinical. He rarely, if ever, 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:37.720 demonstrates or indicates any sort of emotional response. One of 0:19:37.800 --> 0:19:39.760 the few times that I got a sense of it, 0:19:40.160 --> 0:19:42.320 well one when I ask him, what you know what 0:19:42.480 --> 0:19:44.560 killing does for him? Then he told me that I 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.639 am God. You know that. That's pretty telling the right there. 0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.479 But another one I asked him, I said, what did 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:53.879 you find the most satisfying moment of your life? He said, well, 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:56.920 I received a badge. And this is true. He got 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:59.720 a badge from the City of Wichita. He always wanted 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.600 to be police officer. He never quite made it, but 0:20:02.800 --> 0:20:06.400 he did become a compliance officer for the City of Wichita. 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:08.720 That gave him a badge which enabled him to come 0:20:08.760 --> 0:20:12.040 to people's homes and say, put your dog on a leash, 0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:15.640 trim your trees, trim your lawn. And this gave him 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:18.480 that sense of power and entitlement and authority that he 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:23.399 really really craved. Well, so here's the story. He's in 0:20:23.440 --> 0:20:26.800 the midst of his killing screen. Now the BTK killer 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:30.520 is at large, and he goes into city Hall to 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.520 get his little badge as a compliance officer, and while 0:20:34.600 --> 0:20:38.119 he's there, they say, oh, Dennis, let's take you. Let 0:20:38.200 --> 0:20:41.359 us take you into the BTK war room where we 0:20:41.400 --> 0:20:44.520 can show you everything that we're doing to catch this maniac. 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.959 This you know, this madman. And so he gets a 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.560 tour of the war room that's set up for them, 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:53.360 and he's smiling like the cat that ate the canary, 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.560 thinking to himself, I truly am a genius. Look at this. 0:20:57.640 --> 0:21:00.040 They have no idea that I am the man and 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:02.879 they're looking for. And so he said to me, he said, 0:21:03.200 --> 0:21:07.360 this was the greatest rush of my life. The greatest 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:09.439 rush of my life was that moment. 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.879 This does sort of fishtail into the Idaho massacre and 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.280 the accused Brian Coburger. Again, to be clear, he is 0:21:18.320 --> 0:21:20.959 claiming his innocence. In no way are we trying to 0:21:21.119 --> 0:21:23.120 prove his guilt. But some of the things I kind 0:21:23.160 --> 0:21:26.720 of cross over with BTK that we have heard reported 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:31.280 about Brian Coburger is exactly law enforcement. You know, he 0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:33.960 had a real pension for wanting to be in law enforcement, 0:21:34.080 --> 0:21:36.840 and in his later high school years had joined a 0:21:36.840 --> 0:21:39.640 certain part of his high school that was for law 0:21:39.760 --> 0:21:42.080 enforcement want to be so essentially he wanted to be 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:45.600 a cop. Ultimately he got removed from that, and that 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.520 might have been a cross section for him, we're told 0:21:47.560 --> 0:21:51.560 where maybe he then loathed law enforcement as a result. 0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:53.919 But at one point he wanted to wear a badge. 0:21:54.000 --> 0:21:57.040 And I wonder if that teeters into the same territory 0:21:57.080 --> 0:22:00.680 of wanting to be God right, because as law, maybe 0:22:00.680 --> 0:22:04.159 from a young person's mind, is law the land, and 0:22:04.280 --> 0:22:06.439 I keep it in check. And I could see how 0:22:06.480 --> 0:22:09.520 that could have crossover in a more demented way into 0:22:10.000 --> 0:22:14.520 wanting to control people through violence like BTK did. That's one, 0:22:14.840 --> 0:22:16.840 and then also the fact that he was, you know, 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.840 seemingly a really ordinary guy that came from a really 0:22:19.840 --> 0:22:22.680 loving family, and he had a lot of opportunity and 0:22:22.840 --> 0:22:26.480 just the emotional regulation that you have to have to 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:29.280 go in this case, if again, what Brian Coberger is 0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.000 being accused of is accurate, to go from killing four 0:22:32.040 --> 0:22:34.919 people and then headed back to class to be in 0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:37.760 the beehive the next day and talk about the case. 0:22:38.480 --> 0:22:39.760 He didn't miss any school. 0:22:39.800 --> 0:22:41.800 He was a teacher's assistant and was there the next 0:22:41.880 --> 0:22:45.720 day and was still grading papers. And to your earlier point, 0:22:46.119 --> 0:22:47.960 something that had come up in a recent interview that 0:22:48.000 --> 0:22:50.679 I did was with one of the classmates that was 0:22:50.680 --> 0:22:54.080 in his classroom before and after the killings. And it 0:22:54.119 --> 0:22:56.320 was a large class, like three hundred students or so, 0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.280 and he was one of those teachers assistants that gave 0:22:59.320 --> 0:23:01.080 a lot of notes. It's a lot of red lines 0:23:01.119 --> 0:23:05.119 through papers and assignments and many many notes in those columns, 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:09.639 and after the murders, her real notice was that the 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.560 grades had gotten significantly better. There was still as much detail, 0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:16.119 lots of notes in the columns and lots of red lines. 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:19.399 He was equally as thorough, but that where he would 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:22.240 normally be a hard grader, post the murders, he was 0:23:22.280 --> 0:23:25.480 a very easy grad. It was a's, a's. 0:23:25.240 --> 0:23:25.680 And a's. 0:23:26.359 --> 0:23:28.520 And I asked her what she felt about that, and 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.439 her interpretation of that was that maybe he knew that 0:23:31.640 --> 0:23:34.199 law enforcement was looking for him and that he wanted 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:36.080 the class to like him a little bit more should 0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:37.040 they get interviewed. 0:23:37.480 --> 0:23:40.800 My brain went to he was just a little happier. 0:23:40.960 --> 0:23:43.320 If what he's been accused of is true, he had 0:23:43.359 --> 0:23:46.560 that release that you're speaking of, and much like BTK 0:23:46.800 --> 0:23:50.160 seeing the war room with all of the kills for him, 0:23:50.560 --> 0:23:53.639 if this was true, then maybe that was the high. 0:23:53.720 --> 0:23:56.000 That was the high he was hoping for. 0:23:56.880 --> 0:23:59.879 I think that there's absolutely merit to what you're saying. 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:02.480 As a matter of fact, as you were talking, I 0:24:02.560 --> 0:24:05.320 was thinking along those same lines that he had finally 0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:08.919 achieved something that he had been building up to for 0:24:08.920 --> 0:24:13.199