1 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:08,440 Speaker 1: While there are many similarities between psychopaths and sociopaths, there 2 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:09,760 Speaker 1: are many differences too. 3 00:00:10,960 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: You're somebody who has had such close contact with so 4 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: many of these prolific killers that it's frankly probably impossible 5 00:00:17,600 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 2: to boil it down to one key ingredient. 6 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: His first killings were actually a mass murder, and after 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: that with his second killing, is where he really became 8 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:27,800 Speaker 1: a serial killer. 9 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 3: This is the Idaho Massacre, a production of Kat's Studios 10 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:44,160 Speaker 3: and iHeartRadio, Season two, Episode seven, Mind of a Murderer. 11 00:00:45,800 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 3: I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Kat's Studios, with Stephanie 12 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 3: Leidecker and Gabe Castillo. In the aftermath of the senseless 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 3: tragedy of Ethan Chapin, Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen, and Kayla 14 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 3: Solvs's murders on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two. There are 15 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 3: countless unanswerable questions. Some will be answered a trial, and 16 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 3: many may linger forever. We can't know what was in 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 3: the murderer's mind, or even at this point who the 18 00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 3: murderer is. The accused is presumed innocent unless proven guilty 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 3: in a court of law, but in an effort to 20 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 3: try and understand the unthinkable and offer context and perspective 21 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 3: to the inner workings of violent criminals. Stephanie speaks with 22 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:34,200 Speaker 3: doctor Scott Bond, a criminologist and author of books including 23 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,560 Speaker 3: Why We Love Serial Killers The Curious Appeal of the 24 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:45,320 Speaker 3: World's Most Savage Murderers. Here's Stephanie, how. 25 00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 4: And why did you even get in this business to 26 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:48,200 Speaker 4: begin with? 27 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: Well, in terms of the origin of my interest in 28 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: all things that go bump in the night, I really 29 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: have to go back to my childhood because I was 30 00:01:58,520 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: always fascinated by human nature, by human motivations, both the 31 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: good and the bad. So I always was fascinated by 32 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:10,600 Speaker 1: sort of what we would perceive as evil or the 33 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:15,560 Speaker 1: criminal mind, but delving deeper than just the stereotypes and 34 00:02:15,680 --> 00:02:19,360 Speaker 1: just the superficial stamp of evil it's often placed on this. 35 00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: So I, throughout my entire life, I've always wanted to 36 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: penetrate stereotypes and dig beneath the surface and truly understand 37 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,079 Speaker 1: motivations and behavior. 38 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: Do you believe people are born evil or is that 39 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 2: conditioning environment? I know that's a loaded question, but do 40 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:37,160 Speaker 2: you have a feeling on that? 41 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, the word evil is a very explosive, powerful 42 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: and dangerous word in my mind, because once you put 43 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 1: that stamp of evil on a group or an individual, 44 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: there's really no room for discussion any longer because you 45 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,120 Speaker 1: can't have a meaningful conversation with evil. What can you 46 00:02:56,160 --> 00:02:58,920 Speaker 1: do with evil? You can exterminate it, right, so you 47 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: basically eliminate all other possibilities. And I think that in 48 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: criminology and sociology we call that reductionism. And once you 49 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,720 Speaker 1: place a label on something, it's really hard to remove 50 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: that label. So in terms of evil, does evil exist, Yes, 51 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: but I believe that it is manifested in actions and 52 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: deeds and thinking. But I don't believe that there is 53 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:25,560 Speaker 1: an evil gene. I don't think anyone is born inherently evil. 54 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: I think that once again, evil is manifested in the 55 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,519 Speaker 1: things that people do, and in terms of our people 56 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: born that way. Well, that gets to the old nature 57 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:38,400 Speaker 1: versus nurture debate, And based upon all of my study 58 00:03:38,440 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: and experience, like most things in life, it's more complicated 59 00:03:42,240 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 1: than one would seem on the surface, and in fact 60 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,840 Speaker 1: it's a combination of nature and nurture. And in the 61 00:03:48,880 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 1: case of serial killers, for example, about seventy five percent 62 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: of all serial killers are either psychopaths or sociopaths, and 63 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 1: according to the American's psychiatric clinically speaking, that means that 64 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 1: they are not mentally ill in terms of a clinical diagnosis, 65 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 1: they are what are known as antisocial personality disorders, for 66 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: which there is no cure. While there are many similarities 67 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: between psychopaths and sociopaths, there are many differences too. That 68 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 1: one thing that they have in combination, of course, is 69 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 1: just a disdain toward the feelings of others and a 70 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: complete rejection of the laws, rules and more rays of society. 71 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,279 Speaker 1: And they don't mind hurting people to get what they want. 72 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,479 Speaker 1: They tend to be very opportunistic, aggressive and goal oriented, 73 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: and they don't care who they step one to get 74 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: to their goal. 75 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 3: Because people often use the terms sociopath and psychopath interchangeably, 76 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:53,799 Speaker 3: as well as sometimes more widely than is warranted, Stephanie 77 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:57,279 Speaker 3: asked Scott Bond to extrapolate on the distinctions between and 78 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 3: origins of the two. 79 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: Psychopaths are a function of nature and sociopaths are a 80 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:11,200 Speaker 1: function of nurture, sociology, socialize. That's hence sociopath a psychopath 81 00:05:11,640 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 1: is born with a brain that simply doesn't function like 82 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:22,239 Speaker 1: the normal human brain. The psychopathic brain is incapable of 83 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: an emotional connection with other human beings. I like to 84 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: use the analogy of a say, a hair dryer. If 85 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: you pull the cord out of the wall, you've got 86 00:05:32,400 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: a pretty useless hair dryer. Well, in the case of 87 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: empathetic understanding and emotional connection, a psychopath is simply disconnected. 88 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: They can't feel it. They're incapable of forming emotional bonds 89 00:05:44,880 --> 00:05:51,839 Speaker 1: with other people. But the sociopath is different. They are 90 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: born with a normal functioning brain, but over time they 91 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 1: become conditioned into predatory behavior, and an example of that 92 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 1: is through trauma, through abuse, through neglect, and to torture 93 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:12,040 Speaker 1: and torment. And sociopaths are actually much more common. They 94 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: outnumber psychopaths about eight to one in terms of their 95 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: existence in society. And psychopaths are more dangerous because of 96 00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:25,359 Speaker 1: the fact that they simply do not have a feeling 97 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: when they hurt someone else, and they don't know fear. 98 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: They're unflappable. Nothing bothers them. If you think about it, 99 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: it makes them pretty much perfect killing machines. 100 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:41,520 Speaker 2: Because they lack empathy and They also are not petrified 101 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 2: of the law and don't have the same level of 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:48,239 Speaker 2: shame and guilt and human emotion that would come across 103 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,600 Speaker 2: as obvious. If you were considering something violent, I think 104 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: you might have told me this. Is it true that, 105 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 2: of course, not all psychopaths become serial killers. In fact, 106 00:06:57,480 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 2: there are many psychopaths that probably run very fancy tech 107 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:03,360 Speaker 2: companies and our industry makers. 108 00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 4: However, most serial killers do have some sort of psychopathic behavior. 109 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 4: Is that accurate? 110 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: You described it very well. There is an area of 111 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: overlap between psychopaths and serial killers, and in the case 112 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: of serial killers, it's a big overlap. But by no 113 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 1: means are all psychopaths serial killers, and not all serial 114 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: killers are psychopaths. There are overrepresentation of psychopaths in the 115 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: bastions of power, whether it be in business, finance, guess what, politics, 116 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 1: and even things like neurosurgery, any type of field which 117 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: demands incredible focus and discipline, guess what, psychopaths tend to 118 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: do very well because they're unflappable. When it comes to 119 00:07:53,720 --> 00:07:59,080 Speaker 1: serial killers, at least seventy five percent are either psychopaths 120 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: or sociopaths. And of that, let's say it's seventy five percent, 121 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: probably fifty percent of the total, or two thirds of 122 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: that group are psychopaths. So psychopaths do make up the 123 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: largest single group among serial killers. Why they're almost perfectly 124 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: born bred killing machines. 125 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 2: If somebody is a psychopath, do they know it? 126 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 1: It's a great question. And they are very good at compartmentalizing, 127 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: and so they can have multiple realities which they take 128 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: very much as proof depending upon which compartment they're in. 129 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: And I'm not describing multiple personality to disorders here. I'm 130 00:08:41,720 --> 00:08:43,680 Speaker 1: talking about an individual and I'm going to use a 131 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: specific example who I am very familiar with through correspondence 132 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: and long term connection, and that is Dennis Rader, who 133 00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:55,160 Speaker 1: called himself because he's a psychopath BTK, which stands for 134 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: buying torture kill. 135 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,120 Speaker 3: From almost the moment of accused murderer Brian Coberger's arrest 136 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,280 Speaker 3: in December twenty twenty two, his name has been used 137 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 3: in the same sentences as BTK. In the course of 138 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 3: his criminology education, the accused studied under a renowned BTK expert, 139 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 3: and many have theorized about commonalities between the two. Here's Stephanie. 140 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:23,840 Speaker 2: I had heard also that Brian Coberger for certain had 141 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: to have been a study of BTK in his murderous ways, 142 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 2: and there does seem to be some alignment in that 143 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: also the intimacy factor. So in Brian Coberger's case using 144 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: the knife, if in fact that's accurate, you know, it's 145 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,199 Speaker 2: close contact that is considered a very intimate kill, much 146 00:09:39,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: like strangulation. 147 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: And it's sexual too, the penetration of it sexual status. 148 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: And this goes all the way back to Jack the 149 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 1: Ripper who hated women, and so what more vile thing 150 00:09:51,400 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: than you can can you do than penetrate them over 151 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 1: and over, you know, with a knife. So I really 152 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: think there was a deep seated underlying insecurity there and 153 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,160 Speaker 1: actually an anger toward women that may have well been 154 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: manifested through these murders with a knife. 155 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,199 Speaker 2: Can you just give us a little brief history on 156 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 2: BTK for anyone who doesn't know that case as closely. 157 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:15,200 Speaker 1: Dennis Raider grew up in Wichita, Kansas. He had a 158 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:19,240 Speaker 1: relatively normal childhood. He was a boy scout. He loved knots, 159 00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,200 Speaker 1: which was a foreshadowing for things later. He did have 160 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: some compulsions throughout his youth. For example, he was obsessed 161 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: with blood. He was obsessed with dismemberment. And he at 162 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: the age of ten is where the seed was really planted, 163 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: because he witnessed his grandmother kill a chicken in the 164 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: backyard on her farm for dinner. And he became sexually 165 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,280 Speaker 1: aroused at the age of ten, but he didn't even 166 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 1: know what it was. At ten, he didn't even know 167 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 1: what it was, but he knew he liked that sensation, 168 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: and he nurtured that over time, and he became a 169 00:10:53,840 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: peeping tom and he would break into women's homes, steal 170 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:01,960 Speaker 1: their underwear. He would fantasize and great lengths and have 171 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: fetish rituals and also sexually release himself. That fed this, 172 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: and over time, as he reached early adulthood, he began 173 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: trolling women, that's what he referred to it as in Wichitak, Kansas, 174 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:18,480 Speaker 1: watching them come and go. And he put together a 175 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: whole list, a whole list of potential victims, a card 176 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: cataloged almost of photographs and details on someone that he 177 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: might kill because he was obsessed. This hunger was growing 178 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: inside of him, but all the while outside he was 179 00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: a normal seeming guy. He was gone to night school, 180 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 1: he got married, he was starting a family, but by 181 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: age twenty eight he couldn't stand it any longer. It 182 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:47,040 Speaker 1: reached what I like to call it a tipping point, 183 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,839 Speaker 1: and he reached the point where he had to kill 184 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 1: for the first time. And he had set his sights 185 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:57,120 Speaker 1: on a family named Ottero, a Latino family in Wichita, Kansas, 186 00:11:57,280 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: and he was obsessed with the mother and the beautiful 187 00:12:00,880 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: eleven year old daughter, Josephine, and he went there one 188 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: morning in January of seventy four, but things went awry. 189 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: He didn't expect that four members of the family would 190 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: actually be there, the mom, dad, the little son, and Josephine. 191 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:20,120 Speaker 1: But as he told me, he said, I didn't get 192 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,600 Speaker 1: all dressed up for nothing, And being the unflappable psychopath 193 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 1: that he was, he was armed with a gun. He 194 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:28,719 Speaker 1: went in the back door and he told them, as 195 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: long as you cooperate, no one will get hurt. I'm 196 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: here to simply rob you. They complied, and then he 197 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: became buying torture kill for the very first time, and 198 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:44,920 Speaker 1: tortured and killed every member of the family, living out 199 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: the fantasies that had been developing for fifteen years. And 200 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: so his first killings were actually a mass murder. And 201 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: after that with his second killing is where he really 202 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: became a serial killer. But he ultimately killed ten people. 203 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: He ultimately killed ten people that we know. I suspect 204 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: there might be others out there and they're looking at 205 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:04,640 Speaker 1: cold cases. Now. 206 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 3: Scott Bond continues his explanation of how many psychopaths are 207 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 3: pathological in their capacity to compartmentalize. Here's Scott with Moron 208 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 3: how BTK explained it to him. 209 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:25,040 Speaker 1: He described it as his multifaceted life is like a 210 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: photographic cube. You know, maybe you remember those photocubes where 211 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 1: there'd be a different picture on each side of the 212 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: cube and you look at it that way. He sees 213 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 1: his life that way. And so when he's looking at 214 00:13:37,280 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: the picture that is daddy Dennis with his two children, 215 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: that's all he sees. And so the psychopathic serial killer 216 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: is on a different side of the cube that is nonexistent. 217 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 1: So when he's in daddy mode, there is nothing else. 218 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: He is the religious president of his Lutheran church association, 219 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 1: which he truly was. He's the doting father, he is 220 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: the boy Scout leader in town. He is the toast 221 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: of Wichita, Kansas. People loved him. Flip that thing now 222 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: to BTK buind torture kill. Now he is the bloodthirsty, 223 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 1: completely psychopathic, malignant narcissist, malignant narcissist meaning narcissistic tendencies with 224 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: sadism thrown in for good measure. And it's a completely 225 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: different thing. And yes, he knows exactly what he when 226 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: he's in BTK mode. He knows who he is, he 227 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,360 Speaker 1: knows what he wants. He just doesn't care. He told me, 228 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: he said, Scott, I know that it's wrong to kill. 229 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: I know that society has these rules. I don't care. 230 00:14:38,720 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 1: Nothing is going to stop me. And he told me, 231 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: he said, the reason that he's compelled to do this, 232 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: in fact, is because he was a strangler. And when 233 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 1: he had his hands around the neck of his victim 234 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: and he crushed their throats and saw the light of 235 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: life distinguish in their eyes, he said, at that moment, 236 00:14:58,600 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: I know that I am God. 237 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 2: He is such a scary example of someone who's able 238 00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 2: to live in both lives. And I've heard interviews with 239 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:09,880 Speaker 2: his daughter, who by all account says he was like 240 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 2: the greatest, most loving dad, like you just reported. And 241 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 2: I guess that's what's so scary about it is just 242 00:15:14,960 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 2: the idea that somebody can be so functional in the 243 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:22,000 Speaker 2: world and be so dysfunctional in the world and kind 244 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: of TikTok between both universes with very little tells. So 245 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:27,880 Speaker 2: how did you get involved with BTK? 246 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: I was writing this book, which is why we love 247 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: serial killers, the curious appeal of the world's most savage murderers. 248 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,160 Speaker 1: And what I wanted to do is I wanted to 249 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 1: understand serial killers from different perspectives. I'm a criminologist, but 250 00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: I'm trained in sociology, and so from a sociological perspective, 251 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: everything has its place and meaning and even purpose in society. 252 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:55,720 Speaker 1: And what's the mosaic? How do these things fit together? 253 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: So I sought out the news media who have reported 254 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: on cases like BTK and Son of Sam. I developed 255 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: a very great friendship with Roy Hazelwood, one of the 256 00:16:06,560 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: premier FBI profilers from whom I learned so much, and 257 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 1: unfortunately he's passed away a few years ago. But I'd 258 00:16:13,480 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 1: also decided I've got to go to the serial killers 259 00:16:17,200 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 1: themselves and try to understand their own identities that they 260 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: create for themselves, because some of them and BTK is 261 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 1: sitting up there at the top of the heat is 262 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: a highly narcissistic individual that was very aware of his 263 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: own narrative and wanted to create his profile. And he 264 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: even named himself. I mean he called himself bind, torture, 265 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 1: kill BTK, because that's what he does. And after his 266 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,880 Speaker 1: first couple of killings, when he didn't believe that he 267 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:53,200 Speaker 1: had gotten enough notoriety, he started writing to news media 268 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: in which ofa Kansas saying, how many people do have 269 00:16:55,680 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 1: to kill before I get a little notoriety here? I 270 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 1: want to little press, right, So I thought, who better 271 00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: to represent the truly narcissistic, self absorbed psychopath than BTK. 272 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in 273 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 3: a moment. Scott Bond explains what was occurring between BTK 274 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 3: and law enforcement in the three decades between committing his 275 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 3: heinous crimes and when authorities captured him. 276 00:17:35,800 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: All the while, he was playing cat and mouse with 277 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: the police because he's the ultimate control freak, and he 278 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:46,280 Speaker 1: would send letters to law enforcement, letters to the media. 279 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: He would send personal items from his victims so that 280 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: they would be sure that this was actually him, and 281 00:17:52,640 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: he would lay clues and basically demonstrate that he was 282 00:17:56,600 --> 00:17:59,800 Speaker 1: the puppet master. He was in control, He was much 283 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: smarter than law enforcement, and he played this game for 284 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: thirty years before it ultimately caught up to him and 285 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:10,399 Speaker 1: he was finally apprehended. But all the while he was 286 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 1: living this dual life where he was the boy Scout 287 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: leader in town, he was the president of a Lupian 288 00:18:16,760 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: church association. It's absolutely incredible. 289 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 2: And at that time when you spoke with him, and 290 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 2: in the times that you've had these conversations with him, 291 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 2: do you get a cold chill? Does it seem obvious 292 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 2: in retrospect that he was somebody who was capable of 293 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 2: this level of violence because he was really top of 294 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 2: the list of one of the more sick and sadistic 295 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 2: violent murderers. 296 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 4: Do you get that sense? 297 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,000 Speaker 2: Because he always seemed a little like you said, a 298 00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: regular man. 299 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: Let me say first of all, Roy Hazelwood once again, 300 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 1: who was my friend, who was one of the pioneer 301 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: FBI profilers. Roy told me, he said, without a doubt, 302 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: the most cold blooded, stone cold psychopath that he had 303 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: ver sat across from was Dennis Rader. So you have 304 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 1: it from you know, from Hazelwood himself. Now in my case, 305 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:10,919 Speaker 1: because I am not law enforcement, I'm not FBI. I 306 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:13,200 Speaker 1: wasn't able to sit with him. So all of our 307 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: of our communication is through correspondence. But we are talking 308 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 1: voluminous correspondence over a period of years. And yes, the 309 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: detachment that you're talking about is always present. His writings 310 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: are almost business like and clinical. He rarely, if ever, 311 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: demonstrates or indicates any sort of emotional response. One of 312 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: the few times that I got a sense of it, 313 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: well one when I ask him, what you know what 314 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: killing does for him? Then he told me that I 315 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: am God. You know that. That's pretty telling the right there. 316 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: But another one I asked him, I said, what did 317 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: you find the most satisfying moment of your life? He said, well, 318 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: I received a badge. And this is true. He got 319 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,720 Speaker 1: a badge from the City of Wichita. He always wanted 320 00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: to be police officer. He never quite made it, but 321 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: he did become a compliance officer for the City of Wichita. 322 00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: That gave him a badge which enabled him to come 323 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 1: to people's homes and say, put your dog on a leash, 324 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,640 Speaker 1: trim your trees, trim your lawn. And this gave him 325 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: that sense of power and entitlement and authority that he 326 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: really really craved. Well, so here's the story. He's in 327 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:26,800 Speaker 1: the midst of his killing screen. Now the BTK killer 328 00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: is at large, and he goes into city Hall to 329 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: get his little badge as a compliance officer, and while 330 00:20:34,600 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: he's there, they say, oh, Dennis, let's take you. Let 331 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,359 Speaker 1: us take you into the BTK war room where we 332 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 1: can show you everything that we're doing to catch this maniac. 333 00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,959 Speaker 1: This you know, this madman. And so he gets a 334 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 1: tour of the war room that's set up for them, 335 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,360 Speaker 1: and he's smiling like the cat that ate the canary, 336 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: thinking to himself, I truly am a genius. Look at this. 337 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: They have no idea that I am the man and 338 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: they're looking for. And so he said to me, he said, 339 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,360 Speaker 1: this was the greatest rush of my life. The greatest 340 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,439 Speaker 1: rush of my life was that moment. 341 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,879 Speaker 2: This does sort of fishtail into the Idaho massacre and 342 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: the accused Brian Coburger. Again, to be clear, he is 343 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 2: claiming his innocence. In no way are we trying to 344 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 2: prove his guilt. But some of the things I kind 345 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 2: of cross over with BTK that we have heard reported 346 00:21:26,840 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 2: about Brian Coburger is exactly law enforcement. You know, he 347 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,960 Speaker 2: had a real pension for wanting to be in law enforcement, 348 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,840 Speaker 2: and in his later high school years had joined a 349 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,640 Speaker 2: certain part of his high school that was for law 350 00:21:39,760 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: enforcement want to be so essentially he wanted to be 351 00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 2: a cop. Ultimately he got removed from that, and that 352 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,520 Speaker 2: might have been a cross section for him, we're told 353 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 2: where maybe he then loathed law enforcement as a result. 354 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:53,919 Speaker 2: But at one point he wanted to wear a badge. 355 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: And I wonder if that teeters into the same territory 356 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 2: of wanting to be God right, because as law, maybe 357 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 2: from a young person's mind, is law the land, and 358 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,439 Speaker 2: I keep it in check. And I could see how 359 00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 2: that could have crossover in a more demented way into 360 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 2: wanting to control people through violence like BTK did. That's one, 361 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:16,840 Speaker 2: and then also the fact that he was, you know, 362 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: seemingly a really ordinary guy that came from a really 363 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,680 Speaker 2: loving family, and he had a lot of opportunity and 364 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,480 Speaker 2: just the emotional regulation that you have to have to 365 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: go in this case, if again, what Brian Coberger is 366 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: being accused of is accurate, to go from killing four 367 00:22:32,040 --> 00:22:34,919 Speaker 2: people and then headed back to class to be in 368 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 2: the beehive the next day and talk about the case. 369 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 4: He didn't miss any school. 370 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,800 Speaker 2: He was a teacher's assistant and was there the next 371 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 2: day and was still grading papers. And to your earlier point, 372 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 2: something that had come up in a recent interview that 373 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,679 Speaker 2: I did was with one of the classmates that was 374 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,080 Speaker 2: in his classroom before and after the killings. And it 375 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 2: was a large class, like three hundred students or so, 376 00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 2: and he was one of those teachers assistants that gave 377 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 2: a lot of notes. It's a lot of red lines 378 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: through papers and assignments and many many notes in those columns, 379 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,639 Speaker 2: and after the murders, her real notice was that the 380 00:23:09,720 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 2: grades had gotten significantly better. There was still as much detail, 381 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,119 Speaker 2: lots of notes in the columns and lots of red lines. 382 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:19,399 Speaker 2: He was equally as thorough, but that where he would 383 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 2: normally be a hard grader, post the murders, he was 384 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 2: a very easy grad. It was a's, a's. 385 00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 4: And a's. 386 00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 2: And I asked her what she felt about that, and 387 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:31,439 Speaker 2: her interpretation of that was that maybe he knew that 388 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 2: law enforcement was looking for him and that he wanted 389 00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 2: the class to like him a little bit more should 390 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,040 Speaker 2: they get interviewed. 391 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 4: My brain went to he was just a little happier. 392 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 2: If what he's been accused of is true, he had 393 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 2: that release that you're speaking of, and much like BTK 394 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: seeing the war room with all of the kills for him, 395 00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 2: if this was true, then maybe that was the high. 396 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 4: That was the high he was hoping for. 397 00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 1: I think that there's absolutely merit to what you're saying. 398 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, as you were talking, I 399 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,320 Speaker 1: was thinking along those same lines that he had finally 400 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,919 Speaker 1: achieved something that he had been building up to for 401 00:24:08,920 --> 00:24:13,199 Speaker 1: a long time. And similar to BTK, I do believe 402 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: that he had been evolving, progressing, percolating for years and years. 403 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:19,680 Speaker 1: No one wakes up one day and says, this is 404 00:24:19,720 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: a great day to start killing people. You know, it 405 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,600 Speaker 1: just doesn't work that way. Whether you are a mass 406 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,200 Speaker 1: murderer and it's a one time event, it just doesn't 407 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 1: happen that way. This evolves over a long period of time, 408 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,800 Speaker 1: and they reached this tipping point. Now there are definitely 409 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: similarities between BTK and Coburger. 410 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,400 Speaker 3: It's worth noting again that, like every other US citizen 411 00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 3: accused murderer, Brian Coberger is presumed innocent as stipulated by 412 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:53,439 Speaker 3: the fifth, sixth, and fourteenth Amendments. Here again, criminologist doctor 413 00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 3: Scott Bond. 414 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: As I said earlier, you know BTK killed four members 415 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 1: of the same family. That was his first outing as 416 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:05,439 Speaker 1: a killer. Now people ask me all the time, do 417 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: I think the coburger killed previously? And I believe the 418 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,439 Speaker 1: answer to that is no. He made rookie mistakes, not 419 00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: the least of which was leaving a knife sheath lying 420 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: next to one of his victims with touch DNA on it. 421 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,800 Speaker 1: I mean that's I mean, you talk about murder one 422 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: oh one, you don't leave that behind. And he also 423 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:26,639 Speaker 1: very foolishly, and I'm surprised, given his study of forensics 424 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,399 Speaker 1: and so forth, that he would do this, but he 425 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,639 Speaker 1: turned his phone off during the time period of the 426 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,880 Speaker 1: killing and then turned it back on. Just leave your 427 00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,920 Speaker 1: phone at home, you know, you don't need to turn 428 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: it off. Just leave it in your apartment and go 429 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: and kill and come back. I do believe that, having 430 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 1: looked at his progression, and I've looked at his history 431 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 1: quite a bit, this was a troubled individual. He had 432 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: weight problems, he lost a tremendous amount of weight. He 433 00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 1: had drug problems. He had posted early online years before, 434 00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: some of his troubled thoughts and things that he was 435 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 1: wrestling with, and so very much like BTK, and BTK 436 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: told me this that he was interested in forensics, he 437 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,840 Speaker 1: was interested in psychology, he was interested in the mind, 438 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,400 Speaker 1: partially to understand himself. And I think that this could 439 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: very well be true of Brian Coberger. These individuals are 440 00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 1: self aware. They know that something is happening here, and 441 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: as much as it may be stimulating, exciting and thrilling 442 00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: to them, this growing need to kill, at the same time, 443 00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:34,119 Speaker 1: they recognize that this is a little bit abnormal and 444 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,399 Speaker 1: they want to try to understand it. BTK did, and 445 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: I suspected that Coburger did as well, which is what 446 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,320 Speaker 1: led him into this, you know, this study. And in 447 00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: terms of the possible connection between the two, Raider says 448 00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,720 Speaker 1: he's never corresponded with Coburger, although he has said he 449 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 1: thinks that Coburger was in fact a clone. Then again, 450 00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: and everything is about Dennis Rader, so naturally he's going 451 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:57,479 Speaker 1: to say that. But the one thing that we do 452 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,800 Speaker 1: know is that he had entered his doctoral he had 453 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 1: previously gotten a master's degree at Dessal's University, and there 454 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: he was exposed to a forensics class taught by a 455 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: professor who has also written about BTK, and I am 456 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: sure in her research and in her classes she discussed BTK. 457 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,520 Speaker 1: So there's no question that I think Coburger would have 458 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,679 Speaker 1: been pretty versed in the background of BTK as well. 459 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: And in my experience, serial killers do often study one another. 460 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,199 Speaker 1: They're what I like to refer to as students of 461 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,119 Speaker 1: the game, and they will even be jealous of one another. 462 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: For example, when I told Dennis Rader BTK that I 463 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,440 Speaker 1: was also correspondent with David Berkowitz, the son of Sam, 464 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:47,080 Speaker 1: he scoffed. He said, he's not a real man. He 465 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: shot people. Real killers strangle, real men strangle. So he 466 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: belittled a son of Sam. He obviously was very aware, 467 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: and he was even jealous of son of Sam, who 468 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:02,200 Speaker 1: was had an occult sim and David Berkowitz did during 469 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:05,159 Speaker 1: that same timeframe BTK was killing. He came up with 470 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: his own little BTK symbol. He was a copycat in 471 00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: that regard. So these individuals, they do look at one another, 472 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 1: they do follow one another's headlines. 473 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 2: If you will, can you just give a little brief 474 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: snippet on Son of Sam. 475 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:21,960 Speaker 1: David Berkowitz, the Son of Sam, falls into a category 476 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: of serial killer known as that visionary serial killer. And 477 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: by visionary, what we mean is he was obsessed with 478 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: the notion, the fantasy that he was killing for Satan, 479 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 1: that he was being beckoned to do this, and this 480 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: fantasy built in him over a period of time, he 481 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,520 Speaker 1: became obsessed with the occult. He became obsessed with Satan, 482 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: and by nineteen seventy six he believed that he had 483 00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 1: to act out on this, and he went out and 484 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: he bought himself a gun, a revolver, and he shot 485 00:28:50,680 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: his way into the history books. And he didn't buy 486 00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,479 Speaker 1: just any gun. He got paid what is known as 487 00:28:55,520 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: a Bulldog forty four caliber revolver, which is a big, heavy, powerful, 488 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:07,600 Speaker 1: loud handgun. This appeal to David Berkowitz's lack of self esteem. 489 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 1: He was very insecure in his manhood, and I think 490 00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: that this was almost like a phallic Freudian sexual thing. 491 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: The size of it appealed to him, made him feel strong. 492 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: He began his shooting spree, which lasted a little more 493 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: than a year in New York City, and it took 494 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 1: several crime scenes before they realized they had a serial 495 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 1: killer when they linked the ballistics from the shells from 496 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 1: the crime scenes, and he became known as the forty 497 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: four caliber killer initially, but it was when he started 498 00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: his own terrorist terrorizing letter campaign to the news media 499 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,640 Speaker 1: and law enforcement that it became the thing of epic 500 00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: proportions and legend because he left the letter next to 501 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: one of his victims and it was addressed to Captain 502 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: Joe Borelli, who was heading up the task force, the 503 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: serial Killer task Force, and in this letter he introduced 504 00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,760 Speaker 1: himself to the world as the son of Sam, and 505 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: he said, I must provide Papa Sam Satan with blood 506 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,680 Speaker 1: and his thirst is unquenchable, so I will be killing 507 00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: again and again and again, so you can only imagine 508 00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,560 Speaker 1: all hell broke loose when this letter was published in 509 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:18,120 Speaker 1: the news media, and over a period of a year, 510 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: Berkowitz sent letters to everybody from Jimmy Breslin, one of 511 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: the notorious journalists of New York City at the time, 512 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: at law enforcement. He started this terror campaign much like BTK, 513 00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 1: but for different reasons, but he did the same thing 514 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: and when it became a parent that he was targeting 515 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: young white women with long, dark hair. Everything exploded because 516 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: women began to cut their hair, dye their hair, wear 517 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 1: wigs by the summer of nineteen seventy seven, which became 518 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: known as the Summer of Sam in New York City 519 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: because he had the entire city of eight million people 520 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,000 Speaker 1: and at death grip, you couldn't even buy a female 521 00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: wig anymore in New York City. So he truly one man, 522 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: held the city in this death gript and that's why 523 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,959 Speaker 1: he is the thing of legend. He ultimately shot thirteen people, 524 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: killed six and permanently disabled others, but he terrorized millions. 525 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 1: Is he still alive, Yes, he is, and I spent 526 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,480 Speaker 1: an entire day with him in a maximum security prison. 527 00:31:22,800 --> 00:31:25,719 Speaker 1: I had lunch with him, and he is no longer. 528 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 1: Your audience may be aware, and they may not be aware. 529 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,480 Speaker 1: He had a self described spiritual awakening. He became a 530 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,680 Speaker 1: born again Christian in nineteen eighty six when God visited 531 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,880 Speaker 1: his prison cell and washed away his sins, and he 532 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,400 Speaker 1: was no longer the son of Sam serial killer. He 533 00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: is now the son of Hope, minister and evangelist who 534 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,960 Speaker 1: is doing God's good work. Scoff. If you will, but 535 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 1: he has become something of a darling of the evangelical 536 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,000 Speaker 1: Christian community, and they actually operate a website in his 537 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: name that has drawn hundreds of thousands of people from 538 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: around the world who were drawn by his message of inspiration. 539 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I spent an entire day with him 540 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: in prison, and he insisted that we say the Lord's 541 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: Prayer together. He wept tears of contrition, he wept tears 542 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:22,160 Speaker 1: of joy as he manifested the new son of Hope. 543 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:25,240 Speaker 1: So the son of Sam is now the Son of Hope, 544 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 1: and we ate together. This is pretty remarkable. Cafeteria is 545 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: just surrounded by vending machines. And so I showed up 546 00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: that day with a huge bag of quarters because the 547 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: staff told me, if you feed him, he will talk. 548 00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: So I was ready. I was ready. It's like going 549 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 1: to the zoo. You know we're gonna, you know we're gonna, 550 00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: We're gonna. He's gonna perform. And I wasn't disappointed, because man, 551 00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: he ate and he ate, and he ate and he 552 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: ate three huge bags of Dorito's cool ranch flavored Dorito's. 553 00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: He took me on this incredible journey. And I'm sitting 554 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,520 Speaker 1: there and I'm thinking, and if he's acting, he's pretty 555 00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:05,000 Speaker 1: darn believable. He deserves an Academy Award because he's like 556 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 1: the Robert de Niro of serial killer actors. If you know, 557 00:33:07,600 --> 00:33:10,720 Speaker 1: if he's really this good, And then I'm thinking, well, 558 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: all right, maybe it's true. You know, maybe he has transformed. 559 00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: You know, I got a PhD. But it's not in 560 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: like spiritual rebirth. So maybe maybe it's true. But then 561 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,200 Speaker 1: the more cynical side of me said, he's full of shit. 562 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,520 Speaker 1: You know, he's definitely full of shit. I've come to 563 00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: believe that reality is probably somewhere in the middle, as 564 00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: truth often is. So my take on David Berkowitz is 565 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: he's exactly where he needs to be. He never should 566 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 1: be set free. But if he through his correspondence and 567 00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,920 Speaker 1: he's got an old fashioned Smith Corona typewriter that he 568 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 1: corresponds with thousands of Christians around the world, if he's 569 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: doing God's good work and he's helping these people, let 570 00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:48,960 Speaker 1: him do it from behind bars. 571 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 4: Let him do it. 572 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 2: And I think of anything I've learned, not only in 573 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 2: just from you, but just just working in true crime, 574 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 2: is that a person could be many things at once. 575 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 3: Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in 576 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 3: a moment. Stephanie brings up a point from her conversation 577 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 3: with Cassie, which was covered at length in episode three. 578 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 3: Cassie's the former student who was in the criminology class. 579 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:23,359 Speaker 3: The accused was a teacher's assistant in at the time 580 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:24,120 Speaker 3: of the murders. 581 00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: I think that kind of is unsettling for her. That 582 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 2: just doesn't add up in terms of whether he's guilty 583 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:33,359 Speaker 2: or not. Is the fact that she was, like, I 584 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: was not overly even paying attention in class, and even 585 00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 2: I know not to bring your cell phone to the 586 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 2: scene and turn it off. It was such a tier 587 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,440 Speaker 2: one rookie mistake that they learned in that class that 588 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,960 Speaker 2: he was the TA of that. That actually is what 589 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: makes her think that maybe he didn't do it because 590 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 2: it was just so messy and sloppy. 591 00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 4: What do you make of that. 592 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,439 Speaker 1: I believe that it's a you know, like I said, 593 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: a rookie error, and serial killers do refine their techniques 594 00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: over time. Any any serial killer from from Bundy to 595 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: Dahmer said that their most nerve wracking kill was the 596 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: first one, and if they made mistakes, it was the 597 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 1: first time. To the extent that they get away with it, 598 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: they obsess about it and they perfect it and they 599 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,239 Speaker 1: get better at it, which is the scary thing. But 600 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: the more prolific they are, the more successful and the 601 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: more efficient that they are. So no, I think it's 602 00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 1: very consistent with a you know, like I said, a 603 00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: rookie error on his part. But it also didn't make sense. 604 00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: Is they priangulated his cell phone, and he had visited 605 00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,000 Speaker 1: that house that area a number of times, and they 606 00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: got a ping later that morning once his cell phone 607 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: turned back on at nine o'clock in the morning, they 608 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:46,240 Speaker 1: got a ping from his cell phone right outside the house. 609 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,480 Speaker 1: Well that's pretty telling, right there. Turn the cell phone off, 610 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 1: go and kill the people, turn the phone back on, 611 00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: and then revisit the crime scene. And many killers do 612 00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 1: love to revisit their crime scenes. 613 00:35:58,320 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 4: It's hard to wrap your brain around it. 614 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: You know. 615 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: One of the things that you had said to me 616 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 2: that I found so comforting, and I think we should 617 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 2: just quote it directly because I've thought about it so 618 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,240 Speaker 2: many times, is that although we talk about serial killing, 619 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: and you do so importantly in your book, it's really rare, right. 620 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:17,399 Speaker 1: I frequently compare serial killers to sharks, because they're both 621 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:21,319 Speaker 1: predators in nature, and the thing that they have in 622 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: common is that they are both rare, exotic, and deadly, 623 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,000 Speaker 1: and when it gets to the odds of being a 624 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 1: victim of either one, they're remarkably similar. The odds of 625 00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,280 Speaker 1: being attacked by either a shark or a serial killer 626 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,799 Speaker 1: are about one hundred and fifty million to one, so 627 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: those are really good odds. But if you really want 628 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: to feel good, you are twice as likely to be 629 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:46,719 Speaker 1: killed by a soft drink vending machine falling on top 630 00:36:46,760 --> 00:36:48,879 Speaker 1: of you and crushing you than you are to become 631 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:51,200 Speaker 1: a victim of a serial killer. So I think we 632 00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: can all really go home and sleep well tonight. 633 00:36:54,120 --> 00:36:56,440 Speaker 2: There is something scary about the notion of somebody crawling 634 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,440 Speaker 2: through your windows, certainly when you talk about it all 635 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 2: the time. So I found that to be so comforting, 636 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:03,200 Speaker 2: and also just the deep dive going through the rabbit 637 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 2: hole with you about I think we are. I mean, 638 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,600 Speaker 2: myself included, is so interested in the why, and maybe 639 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,080 Speaker 2: that's just inherently unanswerable, But you're somebody who has had 640 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: such close contact with so many of these prolific killers 641 00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 2: that it's frankly, probably impossible to boil it down to, 642 00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,759 Speaker 2: you know, one key ingredient, whether they're a psychopath or 643 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:26,400 Speaker 2: a sociopath, bringing it full circle, but typically they're functional, 644 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 2: and that's scary. We want them to seem like Hannibal Lecter, right, 645 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: we want to know what the answer is. I want 646 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,439 Speaker 2: to get the feeling of a chill when I walk 647 00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,080 Speaker 2: by a killer. And I know that's not true. 648 00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's absolutely correct. And I've done extensive research 649 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: into the whole psychology with the fascination of serial killers 650 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: in the draw, you know, a lot of it is 651 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:50,240 Speaker 1: based upon this, what is this curious fascination with the macabre, 652 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:52,879 Speaker 1: you know, and with serial killers, and part of it 653 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,239 Speaker 1: is just that. And what women consistently tell me is 654 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,440 Speaker 1: I want to be able, as you said, to identify 655 00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: the next Ted Bundy if he shows up in my backyard. 656 00:38:05,000 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: I want to be able to have the ability to 657 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:11,800 Speaker 1: identify this sociopath or psychopath before I potentially get involved 658 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,200 Speaker 1: with it. Nobody wants to date or get married to 659 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: the next BTK or Ted Bundy, So what should I 660 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 1: be looking for the draw of all this? And I 661 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 1: think this is particularly true for women has a lot 662 00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: to do with empathy, both in terms of empathizing with 663 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 1: the victim, who more often than not is another woman, 664 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,800 Speaker 1: and so therefore, but for the grace of God, go I, 665 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:38,120 Speaker 1: but also empathy or at least a desire to understand 666 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 1: the thinking of an individual like a Bundy or a BTK, 667 00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:47,239 Speaker 1: because what they do is so horrible and so terrifying 668 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: that it's incomprehensible. So if you can just give me 669 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: the tools so I can somehow understand this, then maybe 670 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: it's not so terrifying. After all, the thing that we 671 00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:01,360 Speaker 1: don't understand is more terrifying than that we do understand. 672 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,799 Speaker 3: More on that next time. For more information on the 673 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,760 Speaker 3: case and relevant photos, follow us on Instagram at kat 674 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,520 Speaker 3: Underscore Studios. The Idaho Masker is produced by Stephanie Leideger, 675 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,400 Speaker 3: Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound design 676 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,760 Speaker 3: by Jeff Toois, Music by Jared Aston. The Idaho Masker 677 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 3: is a production of KT's Studios and iHeartRadio. For more 678 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,400 Speaker 3: podcasts like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 679 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 3: wherever you listen to your favorite shows. For more information 680 00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:44,120 Speaker 3: on criminologist Scott Bond you can visit his website dot Bond, 681 00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,200 Speaker 3: that's doc b o n N. There you can also 682 00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 3: book tickets to his fascinating nationwide show Serial Killers with 683 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 3: Doctor Scott Bond, the curious appeal of the world's most 684 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 3: terrifying murderers.