WEBVTT - The Wall and the Environment 0:00:05.200 --> 0:00:08.039 Hello, it's just me again. Today it's James. 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.640 I'm joined by Eric Mesa, who will introduce himself in 0:00:11.680 --> 0:00:15.440 a second, and we're going to be discussing the environmental 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:19.760 and human impact of the border policies in the last 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:22.960 decade or thereabouts, and to include the border wall. 0:00:23.000 --> 0:00:24.759 So Eric, would you like to introduce yourself. 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:26.640 Thank you, James. Of course. 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:29.600 My name is Eric Mesa. I you hear him pronounced, 0:00:29.840 --> 0:00:33.480 and I am the Border of the Lands coordinator for Sierrah Club, 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.720 part of the Grand Canyon Chapter based out of tuson Arisona, 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:40.360 which is the on cedar land of the Tona Autumn 0:00:40.400 --> 0:00:42.120 and Pasco Yaki people. 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.120 Many other tribes America. Holm thank you for having me. 0:00:45.680 --> 0:00:47.879 Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. And it's 0:00:47.880 --> 0:00:49.040 a fantastic introduction. 0:00:49.640 --> 0:00:52.760 So, Eric, I think if we start out by just 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:58.840 explaining what the border wall kind of looks like in 0:00:58.840 --> 0:01:01.480 the landscape and how it breaks in the landscape, because 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:04.440 although it's something that you and I might see almost 0:01:04.440 --> 0:01:06.399 every day, for a lot of people, I think that 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:08.280 they kind of saw on the news three or four 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:10.200 years ago and then then you start reporting on it. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:13.840 So can you explain like the physical kind of stature 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:14.839 and impact of the wall. 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:21.559 Yes, well, I think for each person it definitely takes 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.120 into it with the perspective that they might have. You know, 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.960 it definitely impacts people in a different way. But one 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:31.800 thing that you can like notice as soon as you 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.080 see it is how massive it is, how it just 0:01:35.200 --> 0:01:41.080 divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:46.800 on half. So that already for us as on organization, 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.320 since the beginning and the conception of the idea of 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:54.200 start rolling all of these remote areas, start looking at 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.120 the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's 0:01:58.160 --> 0:02:01.800 always really hard to see and just to imagine and 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:04.760 to think about all of the different things, not only people, 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:07.440 but all the different movement that used to happen in 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:10.160 these areas now as being completely interrupted. 0:02:10.840 --> 0:02:12.000 Yeah, yeah, definitely. 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:16.240 I remember in twenty twenty, I was out on Kume 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:20.760 Island in a place called Campo filming a Kumi I 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:23.880 protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:27.760 Actually I was writing for this Yerra club and I 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.359 saw a deer that day, like and it just came 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:32.200 up to the wall, and it was like, what the 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:34.200 fuck do I do? Like this wasn't here last time 0:02:34.200 --> 0:02:34.880 I came here, and. 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:35.480 It was just this. 0:02:35.639 --> 0:02:36.639 Really, I don't know why. 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:39.839 Obviously the world those horrible, cruel things to people every day, 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:41.520 but I don't know why. It struck me at how 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:45.359 unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place, but it did. 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:48.799 So I think maybe if we could look at these 0:02:48.840 --> 0:02:54.359 different The wall spans a huge area and stops randomly 0:02:54.680 --> 0:02:58.040 throughout that area, so preps you could explain some of 0:02:58.080 --> 0:03:01.000 the ecological impacts. Maybe if we still where you are 0:03:01.120 --> 0:03:04.359 in Tucson, and then we move gradually west to where 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:06.920 I am at the western end of it, and would 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:08.560 that be a good sort of way to do that. 0:03:09.720 --> 0:03:10.400 Yeah, of course. 0:03:11.360 --> 0:03:14.880 Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogalles, and 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.560 once we started moving east or I'm sorry west from there, 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:25.320 the closest one right next to it's called Sassabi, And 0:03:25.760 --> 0:03:28.480 as you mentioned Nogalles, there is big walls, and then 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.880 soon it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven. 0:03:32.000 --> 0:03:35.680 There is a range of mountain called the Pahariito Mountains, 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:38.160 which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:43.400 the Southwest, with some endemic species of plants and animals. Actually, 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:49.040 thankfully the wall stops there, and then there is certain 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:53.360 areas that there is a lot of unfinished projects, or 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.280 we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the 0:03:57.320 --> 0:04:02.120 wall that never were completed, and then you stand there. Unfortunately, 0:04:02.360 --> 0:04:06.520 to get them up there, there was a lot of impact. 0:04:09.440 --> 0:04:13.560 For example, they use dynamite to blow up entire mountaintops 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.280 to get equipment up there, and some of the cases 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:19.840 without even constructing any wall at the end. 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:23.320 So it's really unfortunate because a lot of. 0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:27.000 Debris that came out of these explosions right now, it's 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:30.000 causing a lot of erosion issues and it's like moving 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:33.000 into those canyons and covering a lot of the. 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:34.880 Vegetation that was there before. 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:39.480 Then as you keep coming passing through the Phariito Mountains, 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.640 then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires 0:04:42.720 --> 0:04:46.920 National Refuge near the town of Sassab, and there is 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:51.279 a large segment of a wall there with twenty six gaps, 0:04:51.640 --> 0:04:55.880 small gaps, big gaps, and all of these gaps have 0:04:56.000 --> 0:05:00.400 been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.520 announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:10.000 They have been used by migrants a lot recently, but 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:15.120 in recent days actually the influx of migrants have definitely 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:19.080 declined a lot, different to what other people seen in 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.000 other parts of the country, but especially in this area 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:26.320 in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:28.120 coming after Title forty two. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.040 So once you pass that section, then you get. 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:36.159 To what's the Once you pass the Sasab Report of Entry, 0:05:36.200 --> 0:05:41.200 then you enter the Tona Autumn Reservation. Ton Autumn decided 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.440 that they didn't want to wall there, and they fought 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:45.360 for it, and they didn't build a wall. 0:05:45.720 --> 0:05:47.600 Enter is about. 0:05:48.880 --> 0:05:51.279 I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.640 think there is about sixteen to twenty two miles of 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.840 just the land that only contains what's known as a. 0:05:59.400 --> 0:06:01.880 Vehicle brier or normandy barriers. 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:07.039 These are made out of like old train tracks, which 0:06:07.120 --> 0:06:13.599 we really like environmentally speaking because it allows the movement 0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:16.719 of the animals and the flow of the water as well. 0:06:18.600 --> 0:06:21.599 And then once you pass the reservation, then you go 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:25.719 into Organ Pipe National Park, and then you start seeing 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:30.000 more wall sections on areas like Kito w Akito Springs 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.880 like a very important ceremonial site for the ton He 0:06:33.960 --> 0:06:37.320 has shed autown people and a lot of. 0:06:37.279 --> 0:06:38.760 Destruction on those areas. 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.839 Sacred sites as well, there are very cultural and important 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:45.839 for the Tono ten people, like Monument. 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:47.120 Hill, a burial site. 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:52.359 That wall was built right on top of it, and 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:56.120 just keep moving and then you get to areas that 0:06:56.200 --> 0:07:01.200 are more remote until you get to Yuma, and then 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:06.280 we have also Coco Pa Reservation there that there is 0:07:06.320 --> 0:07:13.440 no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation and 0:07:13.520 --> 0:07:16.000 there are some segments I believe that still have no 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.440 wall in there. Recently there was the action by the 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:22.680 state governor to put shipping containers there. 0:07:23.880 --> 0:07:27.480 They were removed recently to be replaced with the. 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:30.400 Regular bowler type of boat. The wall that you see 0:07:30.400 --> 0:07:34.840 in other places. And yes, you keep coming past gal 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:40.200 Lexico and all those areas until you get to Kumie 0:07:40.320 --> 0:07:46.680 Land and the Atai Mountains and all the way to 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:50.840 what's known as Friendship Park, which is a BI national 0:07:50.920 --> 0:07:56.440 park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana, 0:07:56.600 --> 0:07:59.960 which is the last BI national parker the only one 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:03.240 that we have in the southern border. And now as 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:08.000 we speak, new thirty full walls are being built in 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:11.960 that area as well, so even so President Biden. 0:08:11.720 --> 0:08:13.520 Said that he was not going to build more walls. 0:08:13.640 --> 0:08:17.559 We still see a new construction happening as we speak 0:08:17.640 --> 0:08:18.080 right now. 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.560 Yeah, And we've had friends of Friendship Park on our 0:08:21.600 --> 0:08:23.520 share before and I'm sure we will again because they 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:25.720 do very important work and it's a very important space 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.880 for so many families who are divided by the border. 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:29.600 Yep. 0:08:30.360 --> 0:08:33.360 So I think people, I guess when we talk about 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:37.679 ecological impact, people always like people like big animals, right, 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:43.480 So the charismatic megafauna, I guess that are impacted by this. 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:46.360 So maybe that's a good way to look at this. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:52.480 I know that there are some jaguars jaguars, however you 0:08:52.559 --> 0:08:55.719 want to say that that are impacted in it's my 0:08:55.840 --> 0:09:00.000 very British penunciation. In Arizona, there is the bighorn sheep 0:09:00.840 --> 0:09:04.120 of course, who are closer to me need to Cumba 0:09:04.160 --> 0:09:06.680 where people will have heard the scripted series by the 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:09.000 time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with the Cumba. 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:11.199 Can you talk about the impact of the wall and 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.280 those sort of bigger animals. 0:09:14.800 --> 0:09:15.880 Absolutely. Yeah. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:20.600 That has been our main focus as an environmental organization 0:09:21.200 --> 0:09:24.920 since two thousand and five, when the real ID Waiver 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:29.240 came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response 0:09:29.360 --> 0:09:34.280 to nine to eleven and the intention of security borders. 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.760 The real ID Act waved every. 0:09:37.559 --> 0:09:42.840 Single environmental law that we know, like, including the Endangered 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:48.839 Species Act, Clean Water Act, the lot that you can 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:52.960 imagine it's included. It's about forty or more of these laws. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:57.480 We're completely waved in order to start building walls. We 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.640 noticed right away that the first walls are st coming up. 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:05.240 It was really easy for people to go over, under cut. 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:06.640 Through them, or go around them. 0:10:06.679 --> 0:10:09.360 But then we start noticing the animals were not able 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:12.880 to do that anymore. We're start seeing the impacts on 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:16.480 some of the species that are super important. You remember 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:20.840 the species of the desert. They need to cover large 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:24.840 amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive. 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:29.920 We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:32.920 into the United States, back and forth. And just to 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:35.600 mention some of the species that are considered in danger 0:10:36.040 --> 0:10:37.200 in the area of California. 0:10:37.280 --> 0:10:38.480 We got the big corn chip. 0:10:39.000 --> 0:10:41.280 Then you start coming and there's the Sonora and desert 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.880 pro corn into the Sero, the altar. Then we got jaguars, 0:10:45.920 --> 0:10:50.600 in Arizona, we have also black bears. The thing that 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.360 makes this area so special here in Arizona is what 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.839 we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really 0:10:57.920 --> 0:11:01.080 high altitude mountains that you can find. Some of the 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:05.360 species that come from the north, this is their southest 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.959 more territory, and some of the species from the south 0:11:08.000 --> 0:11:13.000 this is the northest most territory. So species like jaguars 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:15.319 can all of a sudden be drinking water out of 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.440 the same pond with a black bear, and that is 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:23.320 very unusual and very rare and very amazing, you know. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:26.440 So we also have ocelots, which is another type of 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:31.800 cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.240 Mexican gray wolf species there is in danger that use 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:41.880 these corridors back and forth, and unfortunately we haven't had 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.760 the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals 0:11:46.760 --> 0:11:51.040 to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these 0:11:51.080 --> 0:11:54.920 animals cannot be put on a GPS. 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:55.400 Color for example. 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:59.360 But what we have done is put a lot of 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.079 cameras on the wilderness and we're able to photograph jauars 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:05.400 on this side of the border and photograph the same 0:12:05.520 --> 0:12:09.000 Jahwa a few years later in Mexico or vice versa. 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:10.400 So there is a lot. 0:12:10.280 --> 0:12:13.200 Of proof that all these animals have been using these 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.119 corridors for thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:21.800 that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert. 0:12:22.360 --> 0:12:26.920 And also we see, you know, like that with the 0:12:26.960 --> 0:12:29.640 construction of the border wall, a lot of the species 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.200 that we used to see more often in the United 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.280 States we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory, 0:12:36.360 --> 0:12:38.720 so when they come and all of a sudden cee 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.559 this is really large obstacle, they're less likely to come. 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:42.839 Back and try it again. 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.920 And that can be an a racial thing that they 0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:48.920 came past it two future generations. 0:13:00.320 --> 0:13:01.880 One thing that you mentioned that which I think is 0:13:01.880 --> 0:13:04.160 something else which it stresses, Like you spoke about how 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:07.200 the jaguars and the pest can share the same pond. 0:13:07.360 --> 0:13:11.480 But the wall and the roads, which we should mention 0:13:11.559 --> 0:13:13.920 that too, right, Like people didn't just get helicoptered in 0:13:13.960 --> 0:13:15.920 to build the wall. They had to first build roads 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:17.520 to get to the place where the border is to 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.360 build the wall. And can we talk about how those 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:23.520 have affected drainage and water sources along the border. 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.680 Absolutely. Yeah, water is life. 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.559 So here in Arizona, for example, we have two rivers 0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:34.160 that actually flow on north, the San Pedro River and 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.040 the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers for example, San 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:42.600 Pedro is born in Mexico and the Santa Cruz comes 0:13:42.600 --> 0:13:44.920 in the United States, then goes down to Mexico and then. 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:49.440 Goes up again. And a lot of the drainage that 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:50.280 has been. 0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.840 One of the biggest issues that we have encounter because 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:56.880 the wall acts like a dam almost and in a 0:13:56.920 --> 0:14:00.400 lot of places doesn't allow the water to flow as 0:14:00.440 --> 0:14:03.120 it used to, and that is going to bring an 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.320 impact to all of the different species of animals but 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.200 also the plants that depend on this water to survive. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:15.520 So when the construction of the border wall came, you 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:17.160 mentioned roads, and. 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.280 The road right next or adjacent to the wall. 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.400 Now it's like a four or five line road in 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:30.360 some places, and it's been also increased the elevation. So 0:14:31.280 --> 0:14:35.080 when you increase the elevation on these roads and do 0:14:35.160 --> 0:14:37.760 not have the proper drainage on the areas that need 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.520 to be and then you're going to have water being 0:14:40.640 --> 0:14:42.840 stuck on one side or the oider of the border 0:14:43.000 --> 0:14:45.000 and not able to make it to the areas where 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.240 it used to flow normally. So we might not see 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.240 the consequences and the first year or the second year, 0:14:51.760 --> 0:14:54.360 but we can start seeing consequences in a few years 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.640 from now. Several plants all of ausdden starting to die 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.640 because they didn't have the water that their habita used 0:15:01.680 --> 0:15:02.640 to provide for them. 0:15:02.680 --> 0:15:04.760 So that's why they grew there on the first place. 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:07.880 So we might see a lot of changes on the 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:11.640 landscape in regards of the way that the water moved 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:13.200 on those places. 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:13.720 Yeah. 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:16.720 So another thing I want to address is like the 0:15:17.200 --> 0:15:19.720 we talked about plants, right, and a number of cacti, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:24.040 specifically like cacti that is sacred to tou Hona autumn 0:15:24.080 --> 0:15:27.600 people have been either moved or destroyed in the in 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:31.520 the construction of the wall around organ pipe and like 0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.680 just not on their reservation, but very much on their 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.200 unseated homelands, right Yeah. 0:15:37.680 --> 0:15:40.880 Yeah, the sawado cactus, it is considered as a relative 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:45.200 for the ton autumn So you can just imagine the 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:49.720 sentiment of the ton autumn people by looking at the 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:55.280 sawados being chopped or bulldoze on these areas considered sacred 0:15:55.360 --> 0:16:00.000 for them, So there was definitely a lot of that happened. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.840 I mean, there is an airport, but we haven't seen 0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:07.000 it yet. It's just on written right now that they're 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:09.920 going to revegitate some of these areas that got impacted. 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:12.120 We're still waiting for that. 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.880 Yeah, And that stuff always comes like last and slowest 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:18.640 if it happens at all. And I know like both 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:23.760 the Kumii the Autumn, I'm sure other Atajoon Autumn, other 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:28.000 tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned, destroyed, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.480 and for a similar reason to the real Idea Act, 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.080 I think it was different. I think this was because 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:33.760 it was done in an executive order and it was 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.480 an emergency that they waived a lot of those Normally 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:39.880 they would have tribal nations would have the right to 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.800 sort of inspect and do a survey before digging that 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:45.880 I know in twenty twenty they were they weren't doing 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:46.440 that right. 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:51.440 No, they didn't know, so they really The Act also 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:57.680 has a lot there to protects archaeological resources, so they 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:02.320 were able to do those things when there was if 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:08.240 it was on feederal land and it was indigenous sacred site. 0:17:08.960 --> 0:17:11.920 Yeah, so another thing talking of federal land. That we 0:17:11.920 --> 0:17:15.640 should probably mention is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation 0:17:16.200 --> 0:17:18.720 that people might not be familiar with. Can you explain 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:20.159 what that is to folks? 0:17:21.119 --> 0:17:22.359 The Roosevelt Reservation. 0:17:22.640 --> 0:17:26.040 It is the area the border about sixty feet away 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:33.000 from where the border line or division is, and that's 0:17:33.000 --> 0:17:35.080 what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation. 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.040 So that is an area that's right. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:45.600 Now mostly managed by CBP border patron and. 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:50.000 People can't it's like technically not it can't be private land, 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:51.920 right or the government can take it at any point. 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:52.600 Is that right? 0:17:53.080 --> 0:17:53.639 Exactly? 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:56.960 And that's what they were using in the case of 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:01.760 the around Campo. That's what they We're doing. One thing 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.560 I think we've neglected to do. I guess I spent 0:18:04.640 --> 0:18:06.840 half my life trying to do this. But I'll let 0:18:06.840 --> 0:18:09.080 you take a swing at it, is like, can you 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.720 describe these desert landscapes and for people who are because 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.479 people think of the desert, right and they think of 0:18:15.840 --> 0:18:19.000 Osita wells, like where people like to go drive their vehicles, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.600 you know, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, But that's 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:25.440 not most of the desert. The desert is actually a 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:29.160 very live place and a place full of like life 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:31.320 that has struggled and made a way to exist there, 0:18:31.760 --> 0:18:35.919 can you explain. And it's a very special place, not 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:40.879 just sort of because it's unique, but it has a 0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:43.280 real sort of well yeah, it has a uniqueness that 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:44.880 you can't really feel anywhere else in the world. 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:48.800 I guess yes, Thank you, James. I definitely agree with 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.520 you on that. As a person that I grew up 0:18:51.560 --> 0:18:56.240 here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment, 0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:02.000 I think it's it is such a beautiful area, and 0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:06.879 not only beautiful on the sense that it's the Sonoran Desert, 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.800 for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert. 0:19:10.440 --> 0:19:11.040 In the world. 0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.760 So yeah, so it's considered a desert because the amount 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.879 of water that we have, but the amount of species 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:20.760 it matches no other desert in the world. Here we 0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:24.280 have the most species of plants, most species of animals, 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:28.720 and only for people like and people goes out there 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:31.280 sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not 0:19:31.400 --> 0:19:34.520 see much of the wildlife there old than the birds, 0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.040 and especially on areas where there is a little bit 0:19:37.080 --> 0:19:39.919 of water. But you got to remember also that the 0:19:39.920 --> 0:19:43.480 desert comes most alive at night, so that's when all 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.080 the species you know that are not wanting to hang 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.600 out on the heat of the desert, they come out 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.760 and this place becomes like a whole other place at night. 0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:59.040 So it is it is definitely worth protecting this and 0:19:59.200 --> 0:20:03.520 every single day, you know, because sometimes as we might 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:07.280 not see the biodiversity in our first visit, it's there, 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:12.560 and we like the amounts of plants and animals word 0:20:12.680 --> 0:20:15.760 enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:20.600 the past. So I think once you build that relationship 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:24.320 with the desert and able to experience, you and everybody 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:29.480 that I have talked started developing this really deep appreciation 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:30.560 for it, for sure. 0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.760 Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you once 0:20:33.800 --> 0:20:37.720 you appreciate, Yeah, you become a desert person. We're talking 0:20:37.720 --> 0:20:40.679 about this cumber the other day, how like you just 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:42.600 turned into a desert you know, you can see who 0:20:42.600 --> 0:20:45.560 the desert people are and who the people have been 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:49.280 at there before. So obviously the desert is a beautiful 0:20:49.280 --> 0:20:51.199 place in a very diverse place, but it's not a 0:20:51.240 --> 0:20:56.160 place that it's necessarily easy to cross, right and when 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:59.560 we as you've explained so well, there are the wall 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:02.159 is not a contiguous thing. It's full of gaps and holes, 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:04.240 and a lot of the places where there are gaps 0:21:04.240 --> 0:21:07.520 of places where it's hard to build and therefore it's 0:21:07.520 --> 0:21:12.000 hard to cross. Can you explain what this It creates 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:14.800 a funnel, right, like a funneling effects through the gap sometimes. 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:18.440 Can you explain what that means people who are crossing north. 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:26.680 Yeah, there is a huge issue these funnels or areas 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:30.000 where there are no walls, because what's been happening and 0:21:30.040 --> 0:21:35.119 we observe is that as more people start going to 0:21:35.200 --> 0:21:39.440 these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues. 0:21:39.480 --> 0:21:42.679 You know, First, people is putting themselves on bigger danger 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:48.280 and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:52.919 of them die. So as also you start pushing up 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.960 people to more remote areas out in the desert where 0:21:56.840 --> 0:22:00.800 it used to be these nature pristine environments. Now we 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:04.159 have the impacts of people moving through these areas, and 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.760 not only the impacts of the people, but you got 0:22:06.760 --> 0:22:10.440 the impacts of border patrol in the area with their 0:22:10.520 --> 0:22:14.760 trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints. 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:16.320 And these are really. 0:22:16.080 --> 0:22:20.000 Fragile soils already opening new roads through the desert with 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:24.720 ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or 0:22:24.760 --> 0:22:28.399 putting lights in the middle of areas where used to 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.159 be one of the most darkest skies in the in 0:22:31.200 --> 0:22:36.880 the country. So all of those put together create huge 0:22:37.119 --> 0:22:40.160 issues for people and the environment as well. 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:40.840 Yeah. 0:22:40.960 --> 0:22:44.439 Yeah, the light thing you mentioned, like it's very I 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.920 don't know people again who haven't been to the desert 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:50.560 when understand how much more you can see when there 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:52.880 is no light two hundreds of miles. There's a place 0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:54.800 I like to go which recently got a Border Patrol 0:22:54.880 --> 0:22:58.480 like substation, and now it's just like glowing and you 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.679 can't see the Noky Way and things. In addition to 0:23:01.720 --> 0:23:03.960 the human impact, which is we said is terrible, right, 0:23:04.040 --> 0:23:07.920 Like I think eight one hundred and sixty people Border 0:23:07.920 --> 0:23:10.720 Patrol found in twenty twenty two had died crossing north. 0:23:10.760 --> 0:23:13.280 That's a very low estimate for the amount of people 0:23:13.320 --> 0:23:17.159 who died, and Border Patrol are kind of actively trying 0:23:17.200 --> 0:23:21.879 not to count all of the deaths according to agents 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:22.480 I've spoken to. 0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:23.080