Speaker 1: Hello, it's just me again. Today it's James.
Speaker 2: I'm joined by Eric Mesa, who will introduce himself in
Speaker 2: a second, and we're going to be discussing the environmental
Speaker 2: and human impact of the border policies in the last
Speaker 2: decade or thereabouts, and to include the border wall.
Speaker 1: So Eric, would you like to introduce yourself.
Speaker 3: Thank you, James. Of course.
Speaker 4: My name is Eric Mesa. I you hear him pronounced,
Speaker 4: and I am the Border of the Lands coordinator for Sierrah Club,
Speaker 4: part of the Grand Canyon Chapter based out of tuson Arisona,
Speaker 4: which is the on cedar land of the Tona Autumn
Speaker 4: and Pasco Yaki people.
Speaker 3: Many other tribes America. Holm thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. And it's
Speaker 1: a fantastic introduction.
Speaker 2: So, Eric, I think if we start out by just
Speaker 2: explaining what the border wall kind of looks like in
Speaker 2: the landscape and how it breaks in the landscape, because
Speaker 2: although it's something that you and I might see almost
Speaker 2: every day, for a lot of people, I think that
Speaker 2: they kind of saw on the news three or four
Speaker 2: years ago and then then you start reporting on it.
Speaker 2: So can you explain like the physical kind of stature
Speaker 2: and impact of the wall.
Speaker 4: Yes, well, I think for each person it definitely takes
Speaker 4: into it with the perspective that they might have. You know,
Speaker 4: it definitely impacts people in a different way. But one
Speaker 4: thing that you can like notice as soon as you
Speaker 4: see it is how massive it is, how it just
Speaker 4: divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them
Speaker 4: on half. So that already for us as on organization,
Speaker 4: since the beginning and the conception of the idea of
Speaker 4: start rolling all of these remote areas, start looking at
Speaker 4: the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's
Speaker 4: always really hard to see and just to imagine and
Speaker 4: to think about all of the different things, not only people,
Speaker 4: but all the different movement that used to happen in
Speaker 4: these areas now as being completely interrupted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2: I remember in twenty twenty, I was out on Kume
Speaker 2: Island in a place called Campo filming a Kumi I
Speaker 2: protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the
Speaker 2: Actually I was writing for this Yerra club and I
Speaker 2: saw a deer that day, like and it just came
Speaker 2: up to the wall, and it was like, what the
Speaker 2: fuck do I do? Like this wasn't here last time
Speaker 2: I came here, and.
Speaker 3: It was just this.
Speaker 1: Really, I don't know why.
Speaker 2: Obviously the world those horrible, cruel things to people every day,
Speaker 2: but I don't know why. It struck me at how
Speaker 2: unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place, but it did.
Speaker 2: So I think maybe if we could look at these
Speaker 2: different The wall spans a huge area and stops randomly
Speaker 2: throughout that area, so preps you could explain some of
Speaker 2: the ecological impacts. Maybe if we still where you are
Speaker 2: in Tucson, and then we move gradually west to where
Speaker 2: I am at the western end of it, and would
Speaker 2: that be a good sort of way to do that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4: Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogalles, and
Speaker 4: once we started moving east or I'm sorry west from there,
Speaker 4: the closest one right next to it's called Sassabi, And
Speaker 4: as you mentioned Nogalles, there is big walls, and then
Speaker 4: soon it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven.
Speaker 4: There is a range of mountain called the Pahariito Mountains,
Speaker 4: which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in
Speaker 4: the Southwest, with some endemic species of plants and animals. Actually,
Speaker 4: thankfully the wall stops there, and then there is certain
Speaker 4: areas that there is a lot of unfinished projects, or
Speaker 4: we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the
Speaker 4: wall that never were completed, and then you stand there. Unfortunately,
Speaker 4: to get them up there, there was a lot of impact.
Speaker 4: For example, they use dynamite to blow up entire mountaintops
Speaker 4: to get equipment up there, and some of the cases
Speaker 4: without even constructing any wall at the end.
Speaker 3: So it's really unfortunate because a lot of.
Speaker 4: Debris that came out of these explosions right now, it's
Speaker 4: causing a lot of erosion issues and it's like moving
Speaker 4: into those canyons and covering a lot of the.
Speaker 3: Vegetation that was there before.
Speaker 4: Then as you keep coming passing through the Phariito Mountains,
Speaker 4: then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires
Speaker 4: National Refuge near the town of Sassab, and there is
Speaker 4: a large segment of a wall there with twenty six gaps,
Speaker 4: small gaps, big gaps, and all of these gaps have
Speaker 4: been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently
Speaker 4: announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps.
Speaker 4: They have been used by migrants a lot recently, but
Speaker 4: in recent days actually the influx of migrants have definitely
Speaker 4: declined a lot, different to what other people seen in
Speaker 4: other parts of the country, but especially in this area
Speaker 4: in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants
Speaker 4: coming after Title forty two.
Speaker 3: So once you pass that section, then you get.
Speaker 4: To what's the Once you pass the Sasab Report of Entry,
Speaker 4: then you enter the Tona Autumn Reservation. Ton Autumn decided
Speaker 4: that they didn't want to wall there, and they fought
Speaker 4: for it, and they didn't build a wall.
Speaker 3: Enter is about.
Speaker 4: I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I
Speaker 4: think there is about sixteen to twenty two miles of
Speaker 4: just the land that only contains what's known as a.
Speaker 3: Vehicle brier or normandy barriers.
Speaker 4: These are made out of like old train tracks, which
Speaker 4: we really like environmentally speaking because it allows the movement
Speaker 4: of the animals and the flow of the water as well.
Speaker 4: And then once you pass the reservation, then you go
Speaker 4: into Organ Pipe National Park, and then you start seeing
Speaker 4: more wall sections on areas like Kito w Akito Springs
Speaker 4: like a very important ceremonial site for the ton He
Speaker 4: has shed autown people and a lot of.
Speaker 3: Destruction on those areas.
Speaker 4: Sacred sites as well, there are very cultural and important
Speaker 4: for the Tono ten people, like Monument.
Speaker 3: Hill, a burial site.
Speaker 4: That wall was built right on top of it, and
Speaker 4: just keep moving and then you get to areas that
Speaker 4: are more remote until you get to Yuma, and then
Speaker 4: we have also Coco Pa Reservation there that there is
Speaker 4: no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation and
Speaker 4: there are some segments I believe that still have no
Speaker 4: wall in there. Recently there was the action by the
Speaker 4: state governor to put shipping containers there.
Speaker 3: They were removed recently to be replaced with the.
Speaker 4: Regular bowler type of boat. The wall that you see
Speaker 4: in other places. And yes, you keep coming past gal
Speaker 4: Lexico and all those areas until you get to Kumie
Speaker 4: Land and the Atai Mountains and all the way to
Speaker 4: what's known as Friendship Park, which is a BI national
Speaker 4: park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana,
Speaker 4: which is the last BI national parker the only one
Speaker 4: that we have in the southern border. And now as
Speaker 4: we speak, new thirty full walls are being built in
Speaker 4: that area as well, so even so President Biden.
Speaker 3: Said that he was not going to build more walls.
Speaker 4: We still see a new construction happening as we speak
Speaker 4: right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And we've had friends of Friendship Park on our
Speaker 2: share before and I'm sure we will again because they
Speaker 2: do very important work and it's a very important space
Speaker 2: for so many families who are divided by the border.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: So I think people, I guess when we talk about
Speaker 2: ecological impact, people always like people like big animals, right,
Speaker 2: So the charismatic megafauna, I guess that are impacted by this.
Speaker 2: So maybe that's a good way to look at this.
Speaker 2: I know that there are some jaguars jaguars, however you
Speaker 2: want to say that that are impacted in it's my
Speaker 2: very British penunciation. In Arizona, there is the bighorn sheep
Speaker 2: of course, who are closer to me need to Cumba
Speaker 2: where people will have heard the scripted series by the
Speaker 2: time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with the Cumba.
Speaker 2: Can you talk about the impact of the wall and
Speaker 2: those sort of bigger animals.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4: That has been our main focus as an environmental organization
Speaker 4: since two thousand and five, when the real ID Waiver
Speaker 4: came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response
Speaker 4: to nine to eleven and the intention of security borders.
Speaker 3: The real ID Act waved every.
Speaker 4: Single environmental law that we know, like, including the Endangered
Speaker 4: Species Act, Clean Water Act, the lot that you can
Speaker 4: imagine it's included. It's about forty or more of these laws.
Speaker 4: We're completely waved in order to start building walls. We
Speaker 4: noticed right away that the first walls are st coming up.
Speaker 4: It was really easy for people to go over, under cut.
Speaker 3: Through them, or go around them.
Speaker 4: But then we start noticing the animals were not able
Speaker 4: to do that anymore. We're start seeing the impacts on
Speaker 4: some of the species that are super important. You remember
Speaker 4: the species of the desert. They need to cover large
Speaker 4: amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive.
Speaker 4: We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico
Speaker 4: into the United States, back and forth. And just to
Speaker 4: mention some of the species that are considered in danger
Speaker 4: in the area of California.
Speaker 3: We got the big corn chip.
Speaker 4: Then you start coming and there's the Sonora and desert
Speaker 4: pro corn into the Sero, the altar. Then we got jaguars,
Speaker 4: in Arizona, we have also black bears. The thing that
Speaker 4: makes this area so special here in Arizona is what
Speaker 4: we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really
Speaker 4: high altitude mountains that you can find. Some of the
Speaker 4: species that come from the north, this is their southest
Speaker 4: more territory, and some of the species from the south
Speaker 4: this is the northest most territory. So species like jaguars
Speaker 4: can all of a sudden be drinking water out of
Speaker 4: the same pond with a black bear, and that is
Speaker 4: very unusual and very rare and very amazing, you know.
Speaker 4: So we also have ocelots, which is another type of
Speaker 4: cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the
Speaker 4: Mexican gray wolf species there is in danger that use
Speaker 4: these corridors back and forth, and unfortunately we haven't had
Speaker 4: the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals
Speaker 4: to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these
Speaker 4: animals cannot be put on a GPS.
Speaker 3: Color for example.
Speaker 4: But what we have done is put a lot of
Speaker 4: cameras on the wilderness and we're able to photograph jauars
Speaker 4: on this side of the border and photograph the same
Speaker 4: Jahwa a few years later in Mexico or vice versa.
Speaker 3: So there is a lot.
Speaker 4: Of proof that all these animals have been using these
Speaker 4: corridors for thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence
Speaker 4: that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert.
Speaker 4: And also we see, you know, like that with the
Speaker 4: construction of the border wall, a lot of the species
Speaker 4: that we used to see more often in the United
Speaker 4: States we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory,
Speaker 4: so when they come and all of a sudden cee
Speaker 4: this is really large obstacle, they're less likely to come.
Speaker 3: Back and try it again.
Speaker 4: And that can be an a racial thing that they
Speaker 4: came past it two future generations.
Speaker 2: One thing that you mentioned that which I think is
Speaker 2: something else which it stresses, Like you spoke about how
Speaker 2: the jaguars and the pest can share the same pond.
Speaker 2: But the wall and the roads, which we should mention
Speaker 2: that too, right, Like people didn't just get helicoptered in
Speaker 2: to build the wall. They had to first build roads
Speaker 2: to get to the place where the border is to
Speaker 2: build the wall. And can we talk about how those
Speaker 2: have affected drainage and water sources along the border.
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, water is life.
Speaker 4: So here in Arizona, for example, we have two rivers
Speaker 4: that actually flow on north, the San Pedro River and
Speaker 4: the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers for example, San
Speaker 4: Pedro is born in Mexico and the Santa Cruz comes
Speaker 4: in the United States, then goes down to Mexico and then.
Speaker 3: Goes up again. And a lot of the drainage that
Speaker 3: has been.
Speaker 4: One of the biggest issues that we have encounter because
Speaker 4: the wall acts like a dam almost and in a
Speaker 4: lot of places doesn't allow the water to flow as
Speaker 4: it used to, and that is going to bring an
Speaker 4: impact to all of the different species of animals but
Speaker 4: also the plants that depend on this water to survive.
Speaker 4: So when the construction of the border wall came, you
Speaker 4: mentioned roads, and.
Speaker 3: The road right next or adjacent to the wall.
Speaker 4: Now it's like a four or five line road in
Speaker 4: some places, and it's been also increased the elevation. So
Speaker 4: when you increase the elevation on these roads and do
Speaker 4: not have the proper drainage on the areas that need
Speaker 4: to be and then you're going to have water being
Speaker 4: stuck on one side or the oider of the border
Speaker 4: and not able to make it to the areas where
Speaker 4: it used to flow normally. So we might not see
Speaker 4: the consequences and the first year or the second year,
Speaker 4: but we can start seeing consequences in a few years
Speaker 4: from now. Several plants all of ausdden starting to die
Speaker 4: because they didn't have the water that their habita used
Speaker 4: to provide for them.
Speaker 3: So that's why they grew there on the first place.
Speaker 4: So we might see a lot of changes on the
Speaker 4: landscape in regards of the way that the water moved
Speaker 4: on those places.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So another thing I want to address is like the
Speaker 2: we talked about plants, right, and a number of cacti,
Speaker 2: specifically like cacti that is sacred to tou Hona autumn
Speaker 2: people have been either moved or destroyed in the in
Speaker 2: the construction of the wall around organ pipe and like
Speaker 2: just not on their reservation, but very much on their
Speaker 2: unseated homelands, right Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the sawado cactus, it is considered as a relative
Speaker 4: for the ton autumn So you can just imagine the
Speaker 4: sentiment of the ton autumn people by looking at the
Speaker 4: sawados being chopped or bulldoze on these areas considered sacred
Speaker 4: for them, So there was definitely a lot of that happened.
Speaker 4: I mean, there is an airport, but we haven't seen
Speaker 4: it yet. It's just on written right now that they're
Speaker 4: going to revegitate some of these areas that got impacted.
Speaker 4: We're still waiting for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that stuff always comes like last and slowest
Speaker 2: if it happens at all. And I know like both
Speaker 2: the Kumii the Autumn, I'm sure other Atajoon Autumn, other
Speaker 2: tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned, destroyed,
Speaker 2: and for a similar reason to the real Idea Act,
Speaker 2: I think it was different. I think this was because
Speaker 2: it was done in an executive order and it was
Speaker 2: an emergency that they waived a lot of those Normally
Speaker 2: they would have tribal nations would have the right to
Speaker 2: sort of inspect and do a survey before digging that
Speaker 2: I know in twenty twenty they were they weren't doing
Speaker 2: that right.
Speaker 4: No, they didn't know, so they really The Act also
Speaker 4: has a lot there to protects archaeological resources, so they
Speaker 4: were able to do those things when there was if
Speaker 4: it was on feederal land and it was indigenous sacred site.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so another thing talking of federal land. That we
Speaker 2: should probably mention is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation
Speaker 2: that people might not be familiar with. Can you explain
Speaker 2: what that is to folks?
Speaker 3: The Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 4: It is the area the border about sixty feet away
Speaker 4: from where the border line or division is, and that's
Speaker 4: what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 3: So that is an area that's right.
Speaker 4: Now mostly managed by CBP border patron and.
Speaker 2: People can't it's like technically not it can't be private land,
Speaker 2: right or the government can take it at any point.
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 3: Exactly?
Speaker 2: And that's what they were using in the case of
Speaker 2: the around Campo. That's what they We're doing. One thing
Speaker 2: I think we've neglected to do. I guess I spent
Speaker 2: half my life trying to do this. But I'll let
Speaker 2: you take a swing at it, is like, can you
Speaker 2: describe these desert landscapes and for people who are because
Speaker 2: people think of the desert, right and they think of
Speaker 2: Osita wells, like where people like to go drive their vehicles,
Speaker 2: you know, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, But that's
Speaker 2: not most of the desert. The desert is actually a
Speaker 2: very live place and a place full of like life
Speaker 2: that has struggled and made a way to exist there,
Speaker 2: can you explain. And it's a very special place, not
Speaker 2: just sort of because it's unique, but it has a
Speaker 2: real sort of well yeah, it has a uniqueness that
Speaker 2: you can't really feel anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 4: I guess yes, Thank you, James. I definitely agree with
Speaker 4: you on that. As a person that I grew up
Speaker 4: here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment,
Speaker 4: I think it's it is such a beautiful area, and
Speaker 4: not only beautiful on the sense that it's the Sonoran Desert,
Speaker 4: for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert.
Speaker 3: In the world.
Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's considered a desert because the amount
Speaker 4: of water that we have, but the amount of species
Speaker 4: it matches no other desert in the world. Here we
Speaker 4: have the most species of plants, most species of animals,
Speaker 4: and only for people like and people goes out there
Speaker 4: sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not
Speaker 4: see much of the wildlife there old than the birds,
Speaker 4: and especially on areas where there is a little bit
Speaker 4: of water. But you got to remember also that the
Speaker 4: desert comes most alive at night, so that's when all
Speaker 4: the species you know that are not wanting to hang
Speaker 4: out on the heat of the desert, they come out
Speaker 4: and this place becomes like a whole other place at night.
Speaker 4: So it is it is definitely worth protecting this and
Speaker 4: every single day, you know, because sometimes as we might
Speaker 4: not see the biodiversity in our first visit, it's there,
Speaker 4: and we like the amounts of plants and animals word
Speaker 4: enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in
Speaker 4: the past. So I think once you build that relationship
Speaker 4: with the desert and able to experience, you and everybody
Speaker 4: that I have talked started developing this really deep appreciation
Speaker 4: for it, for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you once
Speaker 2: you appreciate, Yeah, you become a desert person. We're talking
Speaker 2: about this cumber the other day, how like you just
Speaker 2: turned into a desert you know, you can see who
Speaker 2: the desert people are and who the people have been
Speaker 2: at there before. So obviously the desert is a beautiful
Speaker 2: place in a very diverse place, but it's not a
Speaker 2: place that it's necessarily easy to cross, right and when
Speaker 2: we as you've explained so well, there are the wall
Speaker 2: is not a contiguous thing. It's full of gaps and holes,
Speaker 2: and a lot of the places where there are gaps
Speaker 2: of places where it's hard to build and therefore it's
Speaker 2: hard to cross. Can you explain what this It creates
Speaker 2: a funnel, right, like a funneling effects through the gap sometimes.
Speaker 2: Can you explain what that means people who are crossing north.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there is a huge issue these funnels or areas
Speaker 4: where there are no walls, because what's been happening and
Speaker 4: we observe is that as more people start going to
Speaker 4: these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues.
Speaker 4: You know, First, people is putting themselves on bigger danger
Speaker 4: and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some
Speaker 4: of them die. So as also you start pushing up
Speaker 4: people to more remote areas out in the desert where
Speaker 4: it used to be these nature pristine environments. Now we
Speaker 4: have the impacts of people moving through these areas, and
Speaker 4: not only the impacts of the people, but you got
Speaker 4: the impacts of border patrol in the area with their
Speaker 4: trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints.
Speaker 3: And these are really.
Speaker 4: Fragile soils already opening new roads through the desert with
Speaker 4: ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or
Speaker 4: putting lights in the middle of areas where used to
Speaker 4: be one of the most darkest skies in the in
Speaker 4: the country. So all of those put together create huge
Speaker 4: issues for people and the environment as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the light thing you mentioned, like it's very I
Speaker 2: don't know people again who haven't been to the desert
Speaker 2: when understand how much more you can see when there
Speaker 2: is no light two hundreds of miles. There's a place
Speaker 2: I like to go which recently got a Border Patrol
Speaker 2: like substation, and now it's just like glowing and you
Speaker 2: can't see the Noky Way and things. In addition to
Speaker 2: the human impact, which is we said is terrible, right,
Speaker 2: Like I think eight one hundred and sixty people Border
Speaker 2: Patrol found in twenty twenty two had died crossing north.
Speaker 2: That's a very low estimate for the amount of people
Speaker 2: who died, and Border Patrol are kind of actively trying
Speaker 2: not to count all of the deaths according to agents
Speaker 2: I've spoken to.
Speaker 3: Right, So.
Speaker 1: This is a difficult topic because it's.
Speaker 2: A horrible thing that like shouldn't happen, But I guess
Speaker 2: can we discuss how lethal these The wall is for
Speaker 2: people crossing north if you're comfortable talking about.
Speaker 3: That, yeah, well, definitely.
Speaker 4: The design of it, like on most of places, is
Speaker 4: a thirty foot wall with a metal plate on the
Speaker 4: top on this.
Speaker 3: For some.
Speaker 4: Sources, I have heard that it was designed because when
Speaker 4: people relish terry food high, they start kind of getting
Speaker 4: dizzy or nauseous, so they're more likely to fall down.
Speaker 4: So it's already like a dead apparatus, you know, like
Speaker 4: designed to kill.
Speaker 3: Still people will venture and give it a try. Some
Speaker 3: young folks are almost.
Speaker 4: It's kind of funny to see them climb, how fast
Speaker 4: they're able to do it. But we got to remember
Speaker 4: that not only like young folks are trying to climb,
Speaker 4: you know, sometimes there is a older lady or sometimes
Speaker 4: an older man that wants to give it a try.
Speaker 4: And the rate of injuries definitely has increased so much.
Speaker 4: Or people falling because they got dizzy, or they got nausios,
Speaker 4: or they burn their hands or they lost balance and
Speaker 4: then fall from thirty feet high.
Speaker 3: You know, it can be lethal.
Speaker 4: So we have a lot of broken legs, spine injuries,
Speaker 4: head trauma, people that has fall or people one person
Speaker 4: one time hang out from it and end up choking herself.
Speaker 4: So there is definitely a lot of dead when people
Speaker 4: try to go over the wall. But we also see
Speaker 4: people now just cutting through the bowler so it's easier
Speaker 4: and then just put the thing back. So there is
Speaker 4: all kinds of people doing in all different kinds of
Speaker 4: ways depending on the area, And.
Speaker 3: We see a little bit of everything for sure.
Speaker 4: And of course, you know, if you try to reach
Speaker 4: for the gaps, then you have to do a longer hike,
Speaker 4: and usually people is not even able to carry the
Speaker 4: amount of water that they need to do these kind
Speaker 4: of hikes. We got to remember that a lot of
Speaker 4: the people that we encounter now in the border they
Speaker 4: come from other kinds of environments. They're not familiar with
Speaker 4: the desert. They come from tropical areas where they can
Speaker 4: find water everywhere. They are not used to the heat
Speaker 4: of the dry heat of the desert. They are not
Speaker 4: used to the cold of the nights of the desert.
Speaker 4: So all of these factors make this environment really challenging
Speaker 4: for people to try to cross it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, tell in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's a very hard environment. Like
Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time camping in the desert,
Speaker 2: and I I don't think there's a year that I've
Speaker 2: been hiking in the desert that I haven't rescued someone
Speaker 2: who was very well equipped and had just gone on
Speaker 2: a day hike, right and they've run out of water,
Speaker 2: they've overheated, they've drunk water and not electrolytes, and they've
Speaker 2: got hype andatremia whatever it is like that. And that's
Speaker 2: people who went to our EI today before alone, people
Speaker 2: who've been walking since the Darian Gap, or you know,
Speaker 2: people who are much lesser means to equip themselves. It's
Speaker 2: a very dangerous environment people maybe listening and thinking, like
Speaker 2: I think with immigration issues and specifically with the wall
Speaker 2: and the border, it's such an apparatus right the whole
Speaker 2: you know, DHS in its one hundred and seventy five
Speaker 2: billion dollar budget, it's such such an apparatus that people
Speaker 2: can feel powerless in trying to just put a stop
Speaker 2: to this, to make this change, to make this even
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit more humane, just so we
Speaker 2: seem to like ratchet up the evil meter every year
Speaker 2: at the border, regardless of Democrats or Republicans, Like it
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, what would you suggest folks listening can do
Speaker 2: to make it more humane to advocate for, like even
Speaker 2: less impactful border policies on the environment or on people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we need to look at what we
Speaker 4: have done so far and look at the results.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I think we can see that in some areas to
Speaker 4: build a border wall, a mile of border wall, we're
Speaker 4: spending over the thirty million dollars, and I think it's
Speaker 4: important to think about what can we do with that money.
Speaker 4: You know, there is a lot of resources that we
Speaker 4: have used for this false sense of security a border
Speaker 4: work can give us, and it's just not working the
Speaker 4: way it's supposed to be working, and it's putting a
Speaker 4: lot of pressure on the environment. And if we really
Speaker 4: care about the environment, I think that should not be
Speaker 4: after talk conversation because I think when we listen to
Speaker 4: politicians and it's our next time to go out to vote,
Speaker 4: we need to really start asking.
Speaker 3: The questions about the environment.
Speaker 4: I know it's important that we here in the border
Speaker 4: narrative of politicians talking about immigration, border security, trade with Mexico,
Speaker 4: but there is very little talk in the border around
Speaker 4: the environmental issues, you know, and that shouldn't be an
Speaker 4: afterthought border people. People that lives in the borderlands also
Speaker 4: should have a chance to live on a on a
Speaker 4: good environment, a clean environment. Yeah and yeah, so I
Speaker 4: think a solution or for people things that they can
Speaker 4: do is definitely like ask those questions when it's time
Speaker 4: to bote and see how can we really address root causes.
Speaker 4: You know, the border wall is just a medieval solution
Speaker 4: that it's really trying to stop such a complex issue.
Speaker 3: By doing that, it's not going to work out.
Speaker 4: So it's originally Border Patrol said that the border wall
Speaker 4: is just the only intention it has is to slow
Speaker 4: down people for at least five minutes. Well is it
Speaker 4: really worth it then, you know, to slow them five
Speaker 4: more minutes to all these impacts and all these expenses
Speaker 4: that we're doing, and the maintenance that nobody has talked
Speaker 4: about yet is that we have sections of the wall
Speaker 4: already that they're falling apart because it was just thrown
Speaker 4: up really fast.
Speaker 3: You know, the.
Speaker 4: Erosion is already exposing the foundation, and we are looking
Speaker 4: at millions of millions of dollars that will come just
Speaker 4: to try to keep it every year after every monsoon season.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know in h on the real grand
Speaker 2: as well, like the wake from the border patrol boats
Speaker 2: is causing the river to undercut.
Speaker 1: The foundation of the wall.
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is fantastic on the part of the government.
Speaker 1: Good work. And yeah, Eric, where can people follow you
Speaker 1: and your.
Speaker 2: Efforts if they want to, if they want to follow
Speaker 2: along online and maybe see some pitches of the border
Speaker 2: and hear more about what you're doing.
Speaker 3: Thank you, James.
Speaker 4: I appreciate that we do have a website at Sierra
Speaker 4: Club Border Length. You can learn all about the waivers there.
Speaker 4: You can learn a lot of the work that we've
Speaker 4: been doing in the past. We're part of a larger
Speaker 4: coalition of environmental related border organizations. We work with people
Speaker 4: all the way from California through Texas, but mostly here
Speaker 4: in Arizona.
Speaker 3: And we have our social media sere A Club Borderlands.
Speaker 4: You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all of
Speaker 4: the different We have a YouTube channel as well, and
Speaker 4: we can see some of the videos of the documenting
Speaker 4: that we do. We're able to go down to the
Speaker 4: border document with drones so people can actually look at
Speaker 4: the irony of the whole project.
Speaker 3: We do also outings.
Speaker 4: That we take people out into.
Speaker 3: The desert to.
Speaker 4: Get familiar with the issues themselves. We do clean up
Speaker 4: at the local rivers and collaborate with other.
Speaker 3: Organizations all kinds of works.
Speaker 4: So if people on the audiences based here in Arizona,
Speaker 4: they're welcome to join us to some of these autings
Speaker 4: or activities that we do with the community. We are
Speaker 4: going to do an announcement probably in the next month
Speaker 4: because since twenty nineteen, Sierra Club, in collaboration with the
Speaker 4: Southern Border Community coalitions to the federal government for the
Speaker 4: legal use of funds of the two eighty four and
Speaker 4: two eight h eight.
Speaker 3: Funds, which were funds.
Speaker 4: That were originally allocated for the military and drug related
Speaker 4: programs that were used to border well construction.
Speaker 3: So we sue the government and we're.
Speaker 4: About to settle on this and we're hoping that we're
Speaker 4: going to get good results on environmental remediation and wildlife
Speaker 4: passages along the Southern Border.
Speaker 1: Oh great, that's good to hear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of lawsuits individual tribe suit
Speaker 2: the government as well for that, and so we'll have
Speaker 2: to do a lawsuit roundup one day and have you back. Well,
Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Eric, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: And sharing some of your experiences along the bordy.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you for the invitation and I'll see talk
Speaker 4: to you sir.
Speaker 3: Yeah, It could Happen here as a production of cool
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