1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Hello, it's just me again. Today it's James. 2 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 2: I'm joined by Eric Mesa, who will introduce himself in 3 00:00:11,680 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 2: a second, and we're going to be discussing the environmental 4 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:19,760 Speaker 2: and human impact of the border policies in the last 5 00:00:20,280 --> 00:00:22,960 Speaker 2: decade or thereabouts, and to include the border wall. 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: So Eric, would you like to introduce yourself. 7 00:00:25,480 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 3: Thank you, James. Of course. 8 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 4: My name is Eric Mesa. I you hear him pronounced, 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,480 Speaker 4: and I am the Border of the Lands coordinator for Sierrah Club, 10 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 4: part of the Grand Canyon Chapter based out of tuson Arisona, 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:40,360 Speaker 4: which is the on cedar land of the Tona Autumn 12 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 4: and Pasco Yaki people. 13 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 3: Many other tribes America. Holm thank you for having me. 14 00:00:45,680 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. And it's 15 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: a fantastic introduction. 16 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 2: So, Eric, I think if we start out by just 17 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: explaining what the border wall kind of looks like in 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 2: the landscape and how it breaks in the landscape, because 19 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 2: although it's something that you and I might see almost 20 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:06,399 Speaker 2: every day, for a lot of people, I think that 21 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: they kind of saw on the news three or four 22 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 2: years ago and then then you start reporting on it. 23 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,840 Speaker 2: So can you explain like the physical kind of stature 24 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:14,839 Speaker 2: and impact of the wall. 25 00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,559 Speaker 4: Yes, well, I think for each person it definitely takes 26 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 4: into it with the perspective that they might have. You know, 27 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 4: it definitely impacts people in a different way. But one 28 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 4: thing that you can like notice as soon as you 29 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 4: see it is how massive it is, how it just 30 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 4: divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them 31 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 4: on half. So that already for us as on organization, 32 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 4: since the beginning and the conception of the idea of 33 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 4: start rolling all of these remote areas, start looking at 34 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 4: the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's 35 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 4: always really hard to see and just to imagine and 36 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 4: to think about all of the different things, not only people, 37 00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 4: but all the different movement that used to happen in 38 00:02:07,440 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 4: these areas now as being completely interrupted. 39 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, definitely. 40 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 2: I remember in twenty twenty, I was out on Kume 41 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 2: Island in a place called Campo filming a Kumi I 42 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,880 Speaker 2: protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the 43 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,760 Speaker 2: Actually I was writing for this Yerra club and I 44 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:30,359 Speaker 2: saw a deer that day, like and it just came 45 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 2: up to the wall, and it was like, what the 46 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 2: fuck do I do? Like this wasn't here last time 47 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 2: I came here, and. 48 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 3: It was just this. 49 00:02:35,639 --> 00:02:36,639 Speaker 1: Really, I don't know why. 50 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,839 Speaker 2: Obviously the world those horrible, cruel things to people every day, 51 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: but I don't know why. It struck me at how 52 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:45,359 Speaker 2: unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place, but it did. 53 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:48,799 Speaker 2: So I think maybe if we could look at these 54 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 2: different The wall spans a huge area and stops randomly 55 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 2: throughout that area, so preps you could explain some of 56 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 2: the ecological impacts. Maybe if we still where you are 57 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 2: in Tucson, and then we move gradually west to where 58 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:06,920 Speaker 2: I am at the western end of it, and would 59 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: that be a good sort of way to do that. 60 00:03:09,720 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. 61 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 4: Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogalles, and 62 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,560 Speaker 4: once we started moving east or I'm sorry west from there, 63 00:03:21,000 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 4: the closest one right next to it's called Sassabi, And 64 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 4: as you mentioned Nogalles, there is big walls, and then 65 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 4: soon it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven. 66 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 4: There is a range of mountain called the Pahariito Mountains, 67 00:03:35,720 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 4: which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in 68 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 4: the Southwest, with some endemic species of plants and animals. Actually, 69 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,040 Speaker 4: thankfully the wall stops there, and then there is certain 70 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 4: areas that there is a lot of unfinished projects, or 71 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 4: we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the 72 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 4: wall that never were completed, and then you stand there. Unfortunately, 73 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 4: to get them up there, there was a lot of impact. 74 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 4: For example, they use dynamite to blow up entire mountaintops 75 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 4: to get equipment up there, and some of the cases 76 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,840 Speaker 4: without even constructing any wall at the end. 77 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 3: So it's really unfortunate because a lot of. 78 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 4: Debris that came out of these explosions right now, it's 79 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 4: causing a lot of erosion issues and it's like moving 80 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 4: into those canyons and covering a lot of the. 81 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 3: Vegetation that was there before. 82 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 4: Then as you keep coming passing through the Phariito Mountains, 83 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 4: then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires 84 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 4: National Refuge near the town of Sassab, and there is 85 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 4: a large segment of a wall there with twenty six gaps, 86 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 4: small gaps, big gaps, and all of these gaps have 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:05:00,400 Speaker 4: been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently 88 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:03,520 Speaker 4: announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps. 89 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 4: They have been used by migrants a lot recently, but 90 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 4: in recent days actually the influx of migrants have definitely 91 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,080 Speaker 4: declined a lot, different to what other people seen in 92 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 4: other parts of the country, but especially in this area 93 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 4: in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants 94 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 4: coming after Title forty two. 95 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 3: So once you pass that section, then you get. 96 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:36,159 Speaker 4: To what's the Once you pass the Sasab Report of Entry, 97 00:05:36,200 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 4: then you enter the Tona Autumn Reservation. Ton Autumn decided 98 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 4: that they didn't want to wall there, and they fought 99 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 4: for it, and they didn't build a wall. 100 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 3: Enter is about. 101 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:51,279 Speaker 4: I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I 102 00:05:51,320 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 4: think there is about sixteen to twenty two miles of 103 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:59,840 Speaker 4: just the land that only contains what's known as a. 104 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 3: Vehicle brier or normandy barriers. 105 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 4: These are made out of like old train tracks, which 106 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:13,599 Speaker 4: we really like environmentally speaking because it allows the movement 107 00:06:13,720 --> 00:06:16,719 Speaker 4: of the animals and the flow of the water as well. 108 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,599 Speaker 4: And then once you pass the reservation, then you go 109 00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:25,719 Speaker 4: into Organ Pipe National Park, and then you start seeing 110 00:06:25,800 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 4: more wall sections on areas like Kito w Akito Springs 111 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 4: like a very important ceremonial site for the ton He 112 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,320 Speaker 4: has shed autown people and a lot of. 113 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 3: Destruction on those areas. 114 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 4: Sacred sites as well, there are very cultural and important 115 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 4: for the Tono ten people, like Monument. 116 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:47,120 Speaker 3: Hill, a burial site. 117 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:52,359 Speaker 4: That wall was built right on top of it, and 118 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 4: just keep moving and then you get to areas that 119 00:06:56,200 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 4: are more remote until you get to Yuma, and then 120 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 4: we have also Coco Pa Reservation there that there is 121 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:13,440 Speaker 4: no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation and 122 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 4: there are some segments I believe that still have no 123 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 4: wall in there. Recently there was the action by the 124 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 4: state governor to put shipping containers there. 125 00:07:23,880 --> 00:07:27,480 Speaker 3: They were removed recently to be replaced with the. 126 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 4: Regular bowler type of boat. The wall that you see 127 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 4: in other places. And yes, you keep coming past gal 128 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 4: Lexico and all those areas until you get to Kumie 129 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 4: Land and the Atai Mountains and all the way to 130 00:07:47,040 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 4: what's known as Friendship Park, which is a BI national 131 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 4: park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana, 132 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,960 Speaker 4: which is the last BI national parker the only one 133 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 4: that we have in the southern border. And now as 134 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:08,000 Speaker 4: we speak, new thirty full walls are being built in 135 00:08:08,040 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 4: that area as well, so even so President Biden. 136 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: Said that he was not going to build more walls. 137 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,559 Speaker 4: We still see a new construction happening as we speak 138 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 4: right now. 139 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, And we've had friends of Friendship Park on our 140 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 2: share before and I'm sure we will again because they 141 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 2: do very important work and it's a very important space 142 00:08:25,880 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 2: for so many families who are divided by the border. 143 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: Yep. 144 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: So I think people, I guess when we talk about 145 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,679 Speaker 2: ecological impact, people always like people like big animals, right, 146 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: So the charismatic megafauna, I guess that are impacted by this. 147 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 2: So maybe that's a good way to look at this. 148 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 2: I know that there are some jaguars jaguars, however you 149 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:55,719 Speaker 2: want to say that that are impacted in it's my 150 00:08:55,840 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: very British penunciation. In Arizona, there is the bighorn sheep 151 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: of course, who are closer to me need to Cumba 152 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 2: where people will have heard the scripted series by the 153 00:09:06,679 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 2: time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with the Cumba. 154 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,199 Speaker 2: Can you talk about the impact of the wall and 155 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 2: those sort of bigger animals. 156 00:09:14,800 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. 157 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 4: That has been our main focus as an environmental organization 158 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 4: since two thousand and five, when the real ID Waiver 159 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 4: came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response 160 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 4: to nine to eleven and the intention of security borders. 161 00:09:34,800 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 3: The real ID Act waved every. 162 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:42,840 Speaker 4: Single environmental law that we know, like, including the Endangered 163 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:48,839 Speaker 4: Species Act, Clean Water Act, the lot that you can 164 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 4: imagine it's included. It's about forty or more of these laws. 165 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 4: We're completely waved in order to start building walls. We 166 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 4: noticed right away that the first walls are st coming up. 167 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 4: It was really easy for people to go over, under cut. 168 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 3: Through them, or go around them. 169 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 4: But then we start noticing the animals were not able 170 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 4: to do that anymore. We're start seeing the impacts on 171 00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 4: some of the species that are super important. You remember 172 00:10:16,520 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 4: the species of the desert. They need to cover large 173 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 4: amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive. 174 00:10:25,720 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 4: We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico 175 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 4: into the United States, back and forth. And just to 176 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,600 Speaker 4: mention some of the species that are considered in danger 177 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 4: in the area of California. 178 00:10:37,280 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 3: We got the big corn chip. 179 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 4: Then you start coming and there's the Sonora and desert 180 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: pro corn into the Sero, the altar. Then we got jaguars, 181 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 4: in Arizona, we have also black bears. The thing that 182 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 4: makes this area so special here in Arizona is what 183 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 4: we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really 184 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 4: high altitude mountains that you can find. Some of the 185 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 4: species that come from the north, this is their southest 186 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 4: more territory, and some of the species from the south 187 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 4: this is the northest most territory. So species like jaguars 188 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:15,319 Speaker 4: can all of a sudden be drinking water out of 189 00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 4: the same pond with a black bear, and that is 190 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 4: very unusual and very rare and very amazing, you know. 191 00:11:23,440 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 4: So we also have ocelots, which is another type of 192 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:31,800 Speaker 4: cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the 193 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:35,240 Speaker 4: Mexican gray wolf species there is in danger that use 194 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 4: these corridors back and forth, and unfortunately we haven't had 195 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 4: the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals 196 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 4: to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these 197 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:54,920 Speaker 4: animals cannot be put on a GPS. 198 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: Color for example. 199 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 4: But what we have done is put a lot of 200 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,079 Speaker 4: cameras on the wilderness and we're able to photograph jauars 201 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 4: on this side of the border and photograph the same 202 00:12:05,520 --> 00:12:09,000 Speaker 4: Jahwa a few years later in Mexico or vice versa. 203 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: So there is a lot. 204 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,200 Speaker 4: Of proof that all these animals have been using these 205 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:17,119 Speaker 4: corridors for thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence 206 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 4: that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert. 207 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 4: And also we see, you know, like that with the 208 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 4: construction of the border wall, a lot of the species 209 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 4: that we used to see more often in the United 210 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 4: States we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory, 211 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 4: so when they come and all of a sudden cee 212 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,559 Speaker 4: this is really large obstacle, they're less likely to come. 213 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,839 Speaker 3: Back and try it again. 214 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:45,920 Speaker 4: And that can be an a racial thing that they 215 00:12:45,920 --> 00:12:48,920 Speaker 4: came past it two future generations. 216 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 2: One thing that you mentioned that which I think is 217 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 2: something else which it stresses, Like you spoke about how 218 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: the jaguars and the pest can share the same pond. 219 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:11,480 Speaker 2: But the wall and the roads, which we should mention 220 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: that too, right, Like people didn't just get helicoptered in 221 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 2: to build the wall. They had to first build roads 222 00:13:15,960 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 2: to get to the place where the border is to 223 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: build the wall. And can we talk about how those 224 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 2: have affected drainage and water sources along the border. 225 00:13:24,520 --> 00:13:26,680 Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, water is life. 226 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:30,559 Speaker 4: So here in Arizona, for example, we have two rivers 227 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 4: that actually flow on north, the San Pedro River and 228 00:13:34,200 --> 00:13:38,040 Speaker 4: the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers for example, San 229 00:13:38,080 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 4: Pedro is born in Mexico and the Santa Cruz comes 230 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 4: in the United States, then goes down to Mexico and then. 231 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:49,440 Speaker 3: Goes up again. And a lot of the drainage that 232 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 3: has been. 233 00:13:50,760 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 4: One of the biggest issues that we have encounter because 234 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 4: the wall acts like a dam almost and in a 235 00:13:56,920 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 4: lot of places doesn't allow the water to flow as 236 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 4: it used to, and that is going to bring an 237 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,320 Speaker 4: impact to all of the different species of animals but 238 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 4: also the plants that depend on this water to survive. 239 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 4: So when the construction of the border wall came, you 240 00:14:15,679 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 4: mentioned roads, and. 241 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 3: The road right next or adjacent to the wall. 242 00:14:20,760 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 4: Now it's like a four or five line road in 243 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:30,360 Speaker 4: some places, and it's been also increased the elevation. So 244 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:35,080 Speaker 4: when you increase the elevation on these roads and do 245 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 4: not have the proper drainage on the areas that need 246 00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 4: to be and then you're going to have water being 247 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 4: stuck on one side or the oider of the border 248 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 4: and not able to make it to the areas where 249 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:48,240 Speaker 4: it used to flow normally. So we might not see 250 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 4: the consequences and the first year or the second year, 251 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:54,360 Speaker 4: but we can start seeing consequences in a few years 252 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 4: from now. Several plants all of ausdden starting to die 253 00:14:57,760 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 4: because they didn't have the water that their habita used 254 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 4: to provide for them. 255 00:15:02,680 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 3: So that's why they grew there on the first place. 256 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 4: So we might see a lot of changes on the 257 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 4: landscape in regards of the way that the water moved 258 00:15:12,000 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 4: on those places. 259 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 3: Yeah. 260 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 2: So another thing I want to address is like the 261 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 2: we talked about plants, right, and a number of cacti, 262 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: specifically like cacti that is sacred to tou Hona autumn 263 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 2: people have been either moved or destroyed in the in 264 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: the construction of the wall around organ pipe and like 265 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,680 Speaker 2: just not on their reservation, but very much on their 266 00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: unseated homelands, right Yeah. 267 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, the sawado cactus, it is considered as a relative 268 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 4: for the ton autumn So you can just imagine the 269 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 4: sentiment of the ton autumn people by looking at the 270 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 4: sawados being chopped or bulldoze on these areas considered sacred 271 00:15:55,360 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 4: for them, So there was definitely a lot of that happened. 272 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,840 Speaker 4: I mean, there is an airport, but we haven't seen 273 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 4: it yet. It's just on written right now that they're 274 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 4: going to revegitate some of these areas that got impacted. 275 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 4: We're still waiting for that. 276 00:16:13,000 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, And that stuff always comes like last and slowest 277 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,640 Speaker 2: if it happens at all. And I know like both 278 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 2: the Kumii the Autumn, I'm sure other Atajoon Autumn, other 279 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 2: tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned, destroyed, 280 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 2: and for a similar reason to the real Idea Act, 281 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 2: I think it was different. I think this was because 282 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 2: it was done in an executive order and it was 283 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 2: an emergency that they waived a lot of those Normally 284 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:39,880 Speaker 2: they would have tribal nations would have the right to 285 00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 2: sort of inspect and do a survey before digging that 286 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 2: I know in twenty twenty they were they weren't doing 287 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 2: that right. 288 00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 4: No, they didn't know, so they really The Act also 289 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 4: has a lot there to protects archaeological resources, so they 290 00:16:57,680 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 4: were able to do those things when there was if 291 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 4: it was on feederal land and it was indigenous sacred site. 292 00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so another thing talking of federal land. That we 293 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:15,640 Speaker 2: should probably mention is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation 294 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: that people might not be familiar with. Can you explain 295 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 2: what that is to folks? 296 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:22,359 Speaker 3: The Roosevelt Reservation. 297 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 4: It is the area the border about sixty feet away 298 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 4: from where the border line or division is, and that's 299 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 4: what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation. 300 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,040 Speaker 3: So that is an area that's right. 301 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 4: Now mostly managed by CBP border patron and. 302 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: People can't it's like technically not it can't be private land, 303 00:17:50,080 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 2: right or the government can take it at any point. 304 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:52,600 Speaker 1: Is that right? 305 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 3: Exactly? 306 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 2: And that's what they were using in the case of 307 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,760 Speaker 2: the around Campo. That's what they We're doing. One thing 308 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 2: I think we've neglected to do. I guess I spent 309 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 2: half my life trying to do this. But I'll let 310 00:18:06,840 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: you take a swing at it, is like, can you 311 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: describe these desert landscapes and for people who are because 312 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:15,479 Speaker 2: people think of the desert, right and they think of 313 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: Osita wells, like where people like to go drive their vehicles, 314 00:18:19,000 --> 00:18:22,600 Speaker 2: you know, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, But that's 315 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 2: not most of the desert. The desert is actually a 316 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,160 Speaker 2: very live place and a place full of like life 317 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 2: that has struggled and made a way to exist there, 318 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,919 Speaker 2: can you explain. And it's a very special place, not 319 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:40,879 Speaker 2: just sort of because it's unique, but it has a 320 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 2: real sort of well yeah, it has a uniqueness that 321 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:44,880 Speaker 2: you can't really feel anywhere else in the world. 322 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 4: I guess yes, Thank you, James. I definitely agree with 323 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:51,520 Speaker 4: you on that. As a person that I grew up 324 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 4: here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment, 325 00:18:56,560 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 4: I think it's it is such a beautiful area, and 326 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 4: not only beautiful on the sense that it's the Sonoran Desert, 327 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,800 Speaker 4: for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert. 328 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 3: In the world. 329 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 4: So yeah, so it's considered a desert because the amount 330 00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,879 Speaker 4: of water that we have, but the amount of species 331 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 4: it matches no other desert in the world. Here we 332 00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 4: have the most species of plants, most species of animals, 333 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 4: and only for people like and people goes out there 334 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 4: sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not 335 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,520 Speaker 4: see much of the wildlife there old than the birds, 336 00:19:34,600 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 4: and especially on areas where there is a little bit 337 00:19:37,080 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 4: of water. But you got to remember also that the 338 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 4: desert comes most alive at night, so that's when all 339 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 4: the species you know that are not wanting to hang 340 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 4: out on the heat of the desert, they come out 341 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,760 Speaker 4: and this place becomes like a whole other place at night. 342 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 4: So it is it is definitely worth protecting this and 343 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 4: every single day, you know, because sometimes as we might 344 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,280 Speaker 4: not see the biodiversity in our first visit, it's there, 345 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:12,560 Speaker 4: and we like the amounts of plants and animals word 346 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 4: enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in 347 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 4: the past. So I think once you build that relationship 348 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 4: with the desert and able to experience, you and everybody 349 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 4: that I have talked started developing this really deep appreciation 350 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 4: for it, for sure. 351 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you once 352 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: you appreciate, Yeah, you become a desert person. We're talking 353 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:40,679 Speaker 2: about this cumber the other day, how like you just 354 00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 2: turned into a desert you know, you can see who 355 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,560 Speaker 2: the desert people are and who the people have been 356 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: at there before. So obviously the desert is a beautiful 357 00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 2: place in a very diverse place, but it's not a 358 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:56,160 Speaker 2: place that it's necessarily easy to cross, right and when 359 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 2: we as you've explained so well, there are the wall 360 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,159 Speaker 2: is not a contiguous thing. It's full of gaps and holes, 361 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,240 Speaker 2: and a lot of the places where there are gaps 362 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 2: of places where it's hard to build and therefore it's 363 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: hard to cross. Can you explain what this It creates 364 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 2: a funnel, right, like a funneling effects through the gap sometimes. 365 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 2: Can you explain what that means people who are crossing north. 366 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, there is a huge issue these funnels or areas 367 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 4: where there are no walls, because what's been happening and 368 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,119 Speaker 4: we observe is that as more people start going to 369 00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 4: these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues. 370 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,679 Speaker 4: You know, First, people is putting themselves on bigger danger 371 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 4: and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some 372 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 4: of them die. So as also you start pushing up 373 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 4: people to more remote areas out in the desert where 374 00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 4: it used to be these nature pristine environments. Now we 375 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 4: have the impacts of people moving through these areas, and 376 00:22:04,200 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 4: not only the impacts of the people, but you got 377 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 4: the impacts of border patrol in the area with their 378 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 4: trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints. 379 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 3: And these are really. 380 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 4: Fragile soils already opening new roads through the desert with 381 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:24,720 Speaker 4: ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or 382 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 4: putting lights in the middle of areas where used to 383 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 4: be one of the most darkest skies in the in 384 00:22:31,200 --> 00:22:36,880 Speaker 4: the country. So all of those put together create huge 385 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,160 Speaker 4: issues for people and the environment as well. 386 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. 387 00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:44,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, the light thing you mentioned, like it's very I 388 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: don't know people again who haven't been to the desert 389 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:50,560 Speaker 2: when understand how much more you can see when there 390 00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:52,880 Speaker 2: is no light two hundreds of miles. There's a place 391 00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: I like to go which recently got a Border Patrol 392 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 2: like substation, and now it's just like glowing and you 393 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 2: can't see the Noky Way and things. In addition to 394 00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:03,960 Speaker 2: the human impact, which is we said is terrible, right, 395 00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 2: Like I think eight one hundred and sixty people Border 396 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,720 Speaker 2: Patrol found in twenty twenty two had died crossing north. 397 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 2: That's a very low estimate for the amount of people 398 00:23:13,320 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 2: who died, and Border Patrol are kind of actively trying 399 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 2: not to count all of the deaths according to agents 400 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 2: I've spoken to. 401 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 3: Right, So. 402 00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:26,920 Speaker 1: This is a difficult topic because it's. 403 00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 2: A horrible thing that like shouldn't happen, But I guess 404 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 2: can we discuss how lethal these The wall is for 405 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: people crossing north if you're comfortable talking about. 406 00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 3: That, yeah, well, definitely. 407 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 4: The design of it, like on most of places, is 408 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:50,159 Speaker 4: a thirty foot wall with a metal plate on the 409 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 4: top on this. 410 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 3: For some. 411 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 4: Sources, I have heard that it was designed because when 412 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:02,359 Speaker 4: people relish terry food high, they start kind of getting 413 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,440 Speaker 4: dizzy or nauseous, so they're more likely to fall down. 414 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:10,439 Speaker 4: So it's already like a dead apparatus, you know, like 415 00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 4: designed to kill. 416 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 3: Still people will venture and give it a try. Some 417 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,880 Speaker 3: young folks are almost. 418 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,320 Speaker 4: It's kind of funny to see them climb, how fast 419 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 4: they're able to do it. But we got to remember 420 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: that not only like young folks are trying to climb, 421 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 4: you know, sometimes there is a older lady or sometimes 422 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 4: an older man that wants to give it a try. 423 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 4: And the rate of injuries definitely has increased so much. 424 00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 4: Or people falling because they got dizzy, or they got nausios, 425 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 4: or they burn their hands or they lost balance and 426 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:50,840 Speaker 4: then fall from thirty feet high. 427 00:24:51,040 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 3: You know, it can be lethal. 428 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,840 Speaker 4: So we have a lot of broken legs, spine injuries, 429 00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 4: head trauma, people that has fall or people one person 430 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 4: one time hang out from it and end up choking herself. 431 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 4: So there is definitely a lot of dead when people 432 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 4: try to go over the wall. But we also see 433 00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 4: people now just cutting through the bowler so it's easier 434 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 4: and then just put the thing back. So there is 435 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 4: all kinds of people doing in all different kinds of 436 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 4: ways depending on the area, And. 437 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 3: We see a little bit of everything for sure. 438 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:29,800 Speaker 4: And of course, you know, if you try to reach 439 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 4: for the gaps, then you have to do a longer hike, 440 00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 4: and usually people is not even able to carry the 441 00:25:38,160 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 4: amount of water that they need to do these kind 442 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:43,119 Speaker 4: of hikes. We got to remember that a lot of 443 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,880 Speaker 4: the people that we encounter now in the border they 444 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 4: come from other kinds of environments. They're not familiar with 445 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,160 Speaker 4: the desert. They come from tropical areas where they can 446 00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 4: find water everywhere. They are not used to the heat 447 00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,119 Speaker 4: of the dry heat of the desert. They are not 448 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 4: used to the cold of the nights of the desert. 449 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 4: So all of these factors make this environment really challenging 450 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 4: for people to try to cross it. 451 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:10,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, tell in a lot of ways. 452 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's a very hard environment. Like 453 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time camping in the desert, 454 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 2: and I I don't think there's a year that I've 455 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 2: been hiking in the desert that I haven't rescued someone 456 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 2: who was very well equipped and had just gone on 457 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 2: a day hike, right and they've run out of water, 458 00:26:26,320 --> 00:26:30,160 Speaker 2: they've overheated, they've drunk water and not electrolytes, and they've 459 00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 2: got hype andatremia whatever it is like that. And that's 460 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,160 Speaker 2: people who went to our EI today before alone, people 461 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 2: who've been walking since the Darian Gap, or you know, 462 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: people who are much lesser means to equip themselves. It's 463 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 2: a very dangerous environment people maybe listening and thinking, like 464 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 2: I think with immigration issues and specifically with the wall 465 00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:04,280 Speaker 2: and the border, it's such an apparatus right the whole 466 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: you know, DHS in its one hundred and seventy five 467 00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:10,680 Speaker 2: billion dollar budget, it's such such an apparatus that people 468 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 2: can feel powerless in trying to just put a stop 469 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 2: to this, to make this change, to make this even 470 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 2: you know, a little bit more humane, just so we 471 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:25,040 Speaker 2: seem to like ratchet up the evil meter every year 472 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 2: at the border, regardless of Democrats or Republicans, Like it 473 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: doesn't matter, what would you suggest folks listening can do 474 00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 2: to make it more humane to advocate for, like even 475 00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 2: less impactful border policies on the environment or on people. 476 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think we need to look at what we 477 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 4: have done so far and look at the results. 478 00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 3: You know. 479 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:54,439 Speaker 4: I think we can see that in some areas to 480 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,359 Speaker 4: build a border wall, a mile of border wall, we're 481 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 4: spending over the thirty million dollars, and I think it's 482 00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 4: important to think about what can we do with that money. 483 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 4: You know, there is a lot of resources that we 484 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 4: have used for this false sense of security a border 485 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 4: work can give us, and it's just not working the 486 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 4: way it's supposed to be working, and it's putting a 487 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,879 Speaker 4: lot of pressure on the environment. And if we really 488 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 4: care about the environment, I think that should not be 489 00:28:28,520 --> 00:28:32,679 Speaker 4: after talk conversation because I think when we listen to 490 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,919 Speaker 4: politicians and it's our next time to go out to vote, 491 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 4: we need to really start asking. 492 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: The questions about the environment. 493 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 4: I know it's important that we here in the border 494 00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 4: narrative of politicians talking about immigration, border security, trade with Mexico, 495 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 4: but there is very little talk in the border around 496 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 4: the environmental issues, you know, and that shouldn't be an 497 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 4: afterthought border people. People that lives in the borderlands also 498 00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 4: should have a chance to live on a on a 499 00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 4: good environment, a clean environment. Yeah and yeah, so I 500 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,240 Speaker 4: think a solution or for people things that they can 501 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 4: do is definitely like ask those questions when it's time 502 00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:25,560 Speaker 4: to bote and see how can we really address root causes. 503 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,840 Speaker 4: You know, the border wall is just a medieval solution 504 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: that it's really trying to stop such a complex issue. 505 00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 3: By doing that, it's not going to work out. 506 00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 4: So it's originally Border Patrol said that the border wall 507 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,680 Speaker 4: is just the only intention it has is to slow 508 00:29:45,760 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 4: down people for at least five minutes. Well is it 509 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 4: really worth it then, you know, to slow them five 510 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 4: more minutes to all these impacts and all these expenses 511 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 4: that we're doing, and the maintenance that nobody has talked 512 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 4: about yet is that we have sections of the wall 513 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 4: already that they're falling apart because it was just thrown 514 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,320 Speaker 4: up really fast. 515 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 3: You know, the. 516 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:11,160 Speaker 4: Erosion is already exposing the foundation, and we are looking 517 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 4: at millions of millions of dollars that will come just 518 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 4: to try to keep it every year after every monsoon season. 519 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I know in h on the real grand 520 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 2: as well, like the wake from the border patrol boats 521 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:26,920 Speaker 2: is causing the river to undercut. 522 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: The foundation of the wall. 523 00:30:28,560 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is fantastic on the part of the government. 524 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: Good work. And yeah, Eric, where can people follow you 525 00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:37,600 Speaker 1: and your. 526 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 2: Efforts if they want to, if they want to follow 527 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,680 Speaker 2: along online and maybe see some pitches of the border 528 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:43,960 Speaker 2: and hear more about what you're doing. 529 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 3: Thank you, James. 530 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 4: I appreciate that we do have a website at Sierra 531 00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 4: Club Border Length. You can learn all about the waivers there. 532 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:56,200 Speaker 4: You can learn a lot of the work that we've 533 00:30:56,240 --> 00:30:58,600 Speaker 4: been doing in the past. We're part of a larger 534 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 4: coalition of environmental related border organizations. We work with people 535 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 4: all the way from California through Texas, but mostly here 536 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 4: in Arizona. 537 00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 3: And we have our social media sere A Club Borderlands. 538 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 4: You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all of 539 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 4: the different We have a YouTube channel as well, and 540 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,400 Speaker 4: we can see some of the videos of the documenting 541 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 4: that we do. We're able to go down to the 542 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,479 Speaker 4: border document with drones so people can actually look at 543 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:32,160 Speaker 4: the irony of the whole project. 544 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:35,480 Speaker 3: We do also outings. 545 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 4: That we take people out into. 546 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 3: The desert to. 547 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 4: Get familiar with the issues themselves. We do clean up 548 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 4: at the local rivers and collaborate with other. 549 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 3: Organizations all kinds of works. 550 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 4: So if people on the audiences based here in Arizona, 551 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 4: they're welcome to join us to some of these autings 552 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 4: or activities that we do with the community. We are 553 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 4: going to do an announcement probably in the next month 554 00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,360 Speaker 4: because since twenty nineteen, Sierra Club, in collaboration with the 555 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 4: Southern Border Community coalitions to the federal government for the 556 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 4: legal use of funds of the two eighty four and 557 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 4: two eight h eight. 558 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 3: Funds, which were funds. 559 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:21,600 Speaker 4: That were originally allocated for the military and drug related 560 00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 4: programs that were used to border well construction. 561 00:32:25,280 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 3: So we sue the government and we're. 562 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 4: About to settle on this and we're hoping that we're 563 00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 4: going to get good results on environmental remediation and wildlife 564 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 4: passages along the Southern Border. 565 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:37,960 Speaker 1: Oh great, that's good to hear. 566 00:32:38,160 --> 00:32:42,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a lot of lawsuits individual tribe suit 567 00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 2: the government as well for that, and so we'll have 568 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:49,120 Speaker 2: to do a lawsuit roundup one day and have you back. Well, 569 00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:51,080 Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Eric, thank you for joining us. 570 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 2: And sharing some of your experiences along the bordy. 571 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 4: Absolutely, thank you for the invitation and I'll see talk 572 00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,160 Speaker 4: to you sir. 573 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:05,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, It could Happen here as a production of cool 574 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 3: Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit 575 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 3: our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on 576 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,480 Speaker 3: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever. 577 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: You listen to podcasts. 578 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:17,959 Speaker 3: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated 579 00:33:18,040 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 3: monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.