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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Turning overseas Now where Ukraine was hit overnight by a

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Speaker 2: barrage of Russian drones igniting a fire at an energy

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Speaker 2: facility in the Odessa region that had emergency workers racing

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Speaker 2: to the scene. A drone from that attack crashing of

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Speaker 2: the Poland Poland and EU and NATO member claiming the

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Speaker 2: crash was a provocation from Russia. That coming the same

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Speaker 2: day that NATO military chiefs met remotely as we await

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Speaker 2: more details for a potential trilateral meeting between Presidents Trump,

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Speaker 2: Putin and Zelenski. For more, we want to bring in

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Speaker 2: Leon Panetta, former US Secretary of Defense and former director

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Speaker 2: of the CIA. Thank you for joining US. Director Panetta.

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Speaker 2: We want to start tonight with this whole question of

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Speaker 2: security guarantees, which has been the main and driving topic

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Speaker 2: of Ukraine this week since the meeting on Monday at

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Speaker 2: the White House between President Trump and European leader. To

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Speaker 2: your view, what do security guarantees need to look like

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Speaker 2: to essentially prevent a repeat of what happened in nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety four with the Budapest memorandum that really left Ukraine

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Speaker 2: of the long run, short of an adequate defense against

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Speaker 2: a potential Russian invasion.

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Speaker 3: Well, the primary point that needs to be made with

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Speaker 3: these security assurances is that the United States and our

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Speaker 3: European allies, particularly those that are part of NATO, will

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Speaker 3: in fact make clear that they will come to the

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Speaker 3: assistance of Ukraine if Russia should attack in the future.

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Speaker 3: And so Europe has indicated that they're prepared to move

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Speaker 3: in that direction. I think the President indicated that he

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Speaker 3: was prepared to support security clearances, even though he was

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Speaker 3: pulled back on boots on the ground. He did say

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Speaker 3: that they would look seriously at providing air support to

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Speaker 3: help in those security assurances. The one problem right now

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Speaker 3: is that Russia is saying that somehow it needs a

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Speaker 3: veto power over what those assurances look like. And since

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Speaker 3: the primary purpose of those security assurances is to be

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Speaker 3: able to protect Ukraine from a Russian invasion, I'm not

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Speaker 3: so sure that's something that's going to happen.

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Speaker 4: Well, and mister Secretary, we did have Bloomberg viy's reporting

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Speaker 4: today actually that European leaders are discussing a guarantee for

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Speaker 4: Ukraine that would commit allies to decide within twenty four

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Speaker 4: hours whether to provide military support to the country if

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Speaker 4: it was attacked again by Russia. Much to your point,

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Speaker 4: but just to drill down a little further on this,

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Speaker 4: I'm wondering what is realistic what should we expect from

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Speaker 4: the US when it comes to their side of contributing

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Speaker 4: it to these guarantees. For example, we hear a lot

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Speaker 4: about air cover and that seems to be an emerging

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Speaker 4: theme in these discussions.

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Speaker 3: Well, I think to be fair, security assurances are not

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Speaker 3: going to work unless the United States is part of

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Speaker 3: that agreement. We bring a lot to the table, obviously

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Speaker 3: from a military point of view and from the ability

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Speaker 3: to try to support any military effort that might have

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Speaker 3: to occur on the ground. So it's very important that

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Speaker 3: the United States be part of those security assurances. It's

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Speaker 3: very important that Europe agree that they will come together

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Speaker 3: and support Ukraine in that event. I think twenty four

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Speaker 3: hours is probably makes some sense, but it really has

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Speaker 3: to look like implementation of a Title five kind of

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Speaker 3: approach that once Russia decides to invade Ukraine again, that

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Speaker 3: all the nations of NATO will again respond as they

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Speaker 3: have now.

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Speaker 2: Director Panetta last night and Balance of Power, we spoke

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Speaker 2: with William Taylor, former US Ambassador to Ukraine. Here's what

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Speaker 2: he had to say about the prospect of Vladimir Putin

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Speaker 2: really participating in a bilateral or even trilateral meeting with

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Speaker 2: Vladimir Zelenski.

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Speaker 1: Putin doesn't want to end this war. Putin wants to

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Speaker 1: drag it out. He wants to keep pounding the Ukrainians

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Speaker 1: until they give up. They're never going to give up,

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Speaker 1: but he's going to keep pounding until he's forced to

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Speaker 1: come to the table for a ceasefire. So no, I

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Speaker 1: don't think he's eager to I don't think he has

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Speaker 1: any intentions of coming to a bilateral meeting. He may

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Speaker 1: say something on the phone to President Trump to tell

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Speaker 1: President Trump that he's willing to do it, but they're

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Speaker 1: not serious about these negotiations, and Putin does not either.

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Speaker 1: Putin wants all of Ukraine and he wants to pound

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Speaker 1: them until he gets that.

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Speaker 2: Director Panetta, we have yet to hear from Moscow about

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Speaker 2: whether they will or will not agree to a meeting

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Speaker 2: between vladimir's Lensky and Vladimir Putin. How much time should

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Speaker 2: Donald Trump give the Russian leader to agree to a

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Speaker 2: sit down, and what happens next if Putin balks or refuses.

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Speaker 3: Well, again, there is a fundamental principle here that Bill

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Speaker 3: Taylor referred to, which is that you can't trust Vladimir

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Speaker 3: Putin in these issues. You just can't. I think it's

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Speaker 3: eighty eight percent of the American people in a recent

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Speaker 3: poll said do not trust Vladimir Putin. That's pretty good

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Speaker 3: judgment on the part of the American people. That's the

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Speaker 3: reality is that it's very difficult to really try to

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Speaker 3: find a way to get Putin to negotiate seriously right now.

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Speaker 3: I think he's largely playing for time. He's continuing the war.

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Speaker 3: He's refused to agree to any kind of cease fire.

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Speaker 3: He even talked about the need to eliminate the root causes.

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Speaker 2: Of the war.

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Speaker 3: Well, the root cause of the war was that Russia

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Speaker 3: invaded Ukraine on the basis that it is a part

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Speaker 3: of Russia and not a sovereign democracy on its own.

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Speaker 3: So he basically is saying he wants to win. I

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Speaker 3: think it's very important for President Trump to make very

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Speaker 3: clear to Putin that he wants them to participate in

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Speaker 3: this trilateral or meeting with his Vilenski and if it

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Speaker 3: doesn't happen. I think the president really does have to.

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Speaker 3: He's got to come back and hold tough with Putin

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Speaker 3: by implementing sanctions, by providing weapons, and by making very

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Speaker 3: clear develop Vladimir Putin that he cannot win this war.

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Speaker 3: That is going to be very important to our ability

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Speaker 3: to negotiate.

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Speaker 4: A US secretary of Defense and former director of the CIA,

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Speaker 4: we thank you so much for joining us on Bloomberg