Speaker 1: Do you know what my favorite sound is? Emma Emma.
Speaker 1: That is so our friendship exactly. It's you saying Emma
Speaker 1: to me. It's also kind of you saying Emma to me.
Speaker 1: But when I'm saying Emma to you, it's like, please
Speaker 1: see me as a human being, and yours is like
Speaker 1: stop being being, I see you as a whole. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you, Fran. Yes, what's your favorite color? It's probably
Speaker 1: an Eves Climb blue. What about yours? I would also
Speaker 1: say blue. I don't have a specific kind of blue though.
Speaker 1: Oh really, you just like all blues, like just like blue,
Speaker 1: even like a like a like a hideous like navy blue. See.
Speaker 1: I think this is one of the differences between us
Speaker 1: is you have to know exactly what kind of blue
Speaker 1: you like. I just like the color blue. Okay, okay,
Speaker 1: so why did you ask me? That? Color? Is going
Speaker 1: to be very important today because we will be talking
Speaker 1: about an album that has the name of a color,
Speaker 1: and what color would that be? Rose? It would be
Speaker 1: read Today we'll be talking about Red by Taylor Swift,
Speaker 1: maybe my second favorite color, maybe my second favorite Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift album. I guess we'll get into it. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to Like a Virgin, the podcast where we talk about
Speaker 1: yesterday's pop culture but give it today's takes. I'm Rose,
Speaker 1: damn you, I'm Fran Toronto, and today, as stated, we
Speaker 1: will be diving into Taylor Swift's iconic album Red, with
Speaker 1: the help of bow and Yang of Saturday Night Live
Speaker 1: and the podcast Lost Culture Stas. I'm so excited to
Speaker 1: really get into Red with Bowen. But before that, let's
Speaker 1: talk about what's going on in you know, the news
Speaker 1: and pop culture right now. This week is in many
Speaker 1: ways all about one woman and the emotional chokehold she
Speaker 1: has on us, our community, our community, and on the world.
Speaker 1: And that woman is Taylor Swift, of course, Taylor Allison Swift.
Speaker 1: Last week, Taylor Swift released Red, Taylor's Version, the latest
Speaker 1: in her effort to re record all of her albums. Fran,
Speaker 1: what did you think? First of all, it's like seventeen
Speaker 1: hours long, um, which is such a gift, such a
Speaker 1: gift in my opinion. I mean, even though a lot
Speaker 1: of the songs are just carbon copies of the originals,
Speaker 1: I did love what she did change, Like this song
Speaker 1: Girl at Home to Me is like maybe the most
Speaker 1: significantly different, And I did not like that song on
Speaker 1: the original Red and Taylor's version to me was like
Speaker 1: so grown and a little more poppy, and what did
Speaker 1: you think? I have to agree. I really liked the
Speaker 1: new production on Girl at Home, but really, for me,
Speaker 1: it was all about the from the Vault tracks. I
Speaker 1: obviously love the song with Phoebe Bridgers. It was my
Speaker 1: favorite song. I also really love the song Message in
Speaker 1: a Bottle, which I saw someone on TikTok say is
Speaker 1: like a song from the Trolls World War three credits
Speaker 1: and what I didn't love it, but I love it
Speaker 1: so much. I have been listening to it kind of NonStop.
Speaker 1: But we have to talk about the film Rose. I
Speaker 1: had fun watching it. I think it's silly, but it's
Speaker 1: and and like very literal, but I'm I'm happy it happened.
Speaker 1: It was another moment in this very aggressive, like a
Speaker 1: week long album release cycle, because I think she understands
Speaker 1: that she has until Adele thirty comes out to do
Speaker 1: promo for Red Tailor's version, and so she's amming it
Speaker 1: all into one week. I thought it was a little
Speaker 1: on the nose that it played behind her during the
Speaker 1: SNL performance, but I loved her in The Red Wig.
Speaker 1: What did you think of it? Like that was your
Speaker 1: main takeaway? I loved her in The Red Wig. It
Speaker 1: was my main takeaway. It was similar to my main
Speaker 1: takeaway from the Bad Blood video. Loved her in The
Speaker 1: Red Wig. Loved her in The Red Wig. I okay.
Speaker 1: I My first reaction was like, this is messy Boots,
Speaker 1: Like it is. It is quintessential Taylor to write and
Speaker 1: direct a ten minute film about a breakup that happened
Speaker 1: a decade ago, opening with a Pablo Naruta quote about
Speaker 1: how he'll never forgive Jake Jillen Hall. Because like, when
Speaker 1: I listened to the ten minute version without the film,
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, you know, maybe she's actually not
Speaker 1: that mad at Jake, and she's just writing it for
Speaker 1: the marketing, very shrewdly and wisely, like go off, Taylor, um,
Speaker 1: and like she doesn't actually feel a type of way
Speaker 1: about it was just fun to write because allegedly, according
Speaker 1: to like Redditt threads and fan listeners or whatever, she
Speaker 1: was like, you know, in the studio for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: and they were recording all too well, and she just
Speaker 1: started riffing versus and I think, actually, I think they
Speaker 1: were rehearsing for a tour and she and she like
Speaker 1: was in feeling a certain type of way, sat down
Speaker 1: at the piano and just started playing and like and
Speaker 1: all too well is kind of like an improvised ten
Speaker 1: minute song, but they cut down and this is now
Speaker 1: the this is not the original version. And after she
Speaker 1: was riffing this, I guess it was ages ago, the
Speaker 1: producer walked up to her after almost like and by
Speaker 1: the way, like I recorded that if if you want
Speaker 1: it for later, and so this is later, mama, and
Speaker 1: we now. Actually what happened is that her mom walked
Speaker 1: up to love the live fact that you just let
Speaker 1: your you're letting me spew conspiracy theories when you have
Speaker 1: all the facts. You're in the reddit threads. It comes.
Speaker 1: I'm not in the reddit threads. She talked about this
Speaker 1: like on Steth Myers or Jimmy Fallon or something that
Speaker 1: she was like at rehearsal in her feelings started playing
Speaker 1: this and then afterwards her mom went up to like
Speaker 1: the sound engineer and was like did you record that?
Speaker 1: And they had so key how it is now it
Speaker 1: is what it is, Fran did you order a funk
Speaker 1: the Patriarchy key chain from Taylor Swift dot com. I
Speaker 1: mean no, I didn't. I don't love the typeface, but
Speaker 1: I actually would if it was maybe to have the
Speaker 1: asterisk and can't you just say funck? I understand that
Speaker 1: she has a lot of young fans, but like if
Speaker 1: they have if they're carrying around a key chain that
Speaker 1: says the patriarchy, like they know what it is. I
Speaker 1: did buy some merch. I bought the All Too Well
Speaker 1: t shirt and the red Taylor's version. Now, Jean Bottle,
Speaker 1: are you going to wear it with your cardigan? Your
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift again? I will be. I now at this
Speaker 1: point own too much Taylor Swift merch, so I will
Speaker 1: be layering it to um stay warm during this uh
Speaker 1: Los Angeles winter. I guess my only question for you
Speaker 1: is what to you is the most unhinged lyric and
Speaker 1: or moment from the All two Well ten minute version
Speaker 1: or the film Oh well, I mean not unhinged, but
Speaker 1: my favorite lyric is you kept me like a secret,
Speaker 1: but I kept you like an oath. You know. Don't
Speaker 1: don't hate that I'm being sincere, but that is pure
Speaker 1: Taylor Gold songwriting. It is so evocative, it is definitely peaked.
Speaker 1: Taylor is is her magnum opus. I don't say that
Speaker 1: even in a facetious way. I think it's emblematic of
Speaker 1: like everything she does. My main takeaway was that Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift will direct a Marvel movie. She what that? I
Speaker 1: don't know about that. Is she going to direct the
Speaker 1: next Eternals? Is that? What's going to happen? Journals too?
Speaker 1: And she will be one of the Eternals as well?
Speaker 1: Oh no, there are already too many Eternals. We simply
Speaker 1: do not have room for more. And her power will
Speaker 1: be something song based. Yeah yeah, well yeah, okay, okay,
Speaker 1: maybe she'll have ten rings for each minute of um
Speaker 1: all too well. Uh, speaking of rings, I haven't watched
Speaker 1: the Adele one Night Only whatever, but I did see
Speaker 1: the clip of the proposal that happened at it. Your take,
Speaker 1: there are only two takes from you. Either you hated
Speaker 1: it and you found it foul and disgusting, or you
Speaker 1: loved animated you cry, well, which one do you think
Speaker 1: it was? I am gonna guess cry no, oh damn it. Okay,
Speaker 1: so I thought it was. I thought it was disgusting.
Speaker 1: I hate I hate a surprise proposals in front of
Speaker 1: a lot of people, and especially in front of celebrities.
Speaker 1: And it's funny that we're talking about Taylor Swift because
Speaker 1: this used to happen to her a lot at her
Speaker 1: meet and greets. I remember when we were both writing
Speaker 1: together as journalists. Um, there was something that happened where
Speaker 1: she went to a gay bar to surprise a gay
Speaker 1: couple and like played something on the guitar while they
Speaker 1: got engaged. Um, I'm just not into that thing and
Speaker 1: this Adele thing. Like I guess I'm happy for them,
Speaker 1: but even though I don't believe in marriage, I don't
Speaker 1: want anyone to propose to me. But even if I did,
Speaker 1: that is not how I would want to be proposed to.
Speaker 1: The gist is congrats to this lucky couple. I hope
Speaker 1: you are very happy together and have many long years
Speaker 1: of listening to Adele's music. And after those long years,
Speaker 1: I'm sure you'll probably cry about this in therapy because
Speaker 1: it'll be maybe an issue in your marriage a decade down. Fran,
Speaker 1: you know, it's rare that you are caught up on
Speaker 1: something in pop culture that I am not, but it
Speaker 1: is not unprecedented. Case in point, you are watching the
Speaker 1: current season of Real hospives of Salt Lake City, and
Speaker 1: I am not so as our Salt Lake City correspondent.
Speaker 1: Can you give me the download on what's going on
Speaker 1: because I know the past two weeks have been insane,
Speaker 1: so Rose, I don't want to get too into the
Speaker 1: into the thick of it, as they say, um into
Speaker 1: the thick of it, exactly into the thick of it
Speaker 1: Ocean Kelly Remix, Yes, because you know, we don't want
Speaker 1: to become a Real Housewives recap podcast. However, Andy did
Speaker 1: say this was a top five episode for him out
Speaker 1: of any franchise. You know the gist of the characters.
Speaker 1: You watched a little bit of the first season crapt
Speaker 1: and I watched the first episode of this season. Okay,
Speaker 1: so you're caught up on a little bit, and you
Speaker 1: also watched you've seen clips online, you watched the previews.
Speaker 1: The gist is the show has become a C. S
Speaker 1: I level crime thriller that could potentially even supersed what
Speaker 1: we were given by Erica Jane in Real Housewives of
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills. Of course, this is at the federal level,
Speaker 1: similar to Erica Jane, but the Department of Homeland Security
Speaker 1: showed up with a swat team to the production and
Speaker 1: to get gen Shaw, who had fled the scene basically
Speaker 1: minutes before they arrived. Why did they need a swat
Speaker 1: team which she armed? So here's the thing is that
Speaker 1: they did. There was a lot of theories and hypothesizations
Speaker 1: completely made up word um spewed in the bus as
Speaker 1: they had basically a six hour bus ride right after
Speaker 1: the swat team shows up to their bus. Can you
Speaker 1: imagine that like the gaggiest thing that ever happened, and
Speaker 1: then you have six hours in a moving vehicle to
Speaker 1: talk about it. That's that's the dream. That is honestly
Speaker 1: what made the episode so brilliant because these housewives were
Speaker 1: breaking it down in real time, almost as if they
Speaker 1: were doing it with the audience, like trying to figure
Speaker 1: out what the funk went down. Clearly production was involved
Speaker 1: in some way. They were like, she's on the bus. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the production probably tipped off the FBI. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think it's pretty clear the production tipped off. However, I
Speaker 1: think what the narrative is is that Meredith Marks did it,
Speaker 1: thus securing her place as my number one housewife in
Speaker 1: this franchise and in My Housewives All Stars cast point
Speaker 1: blank period. The only thing I did see from this
Speaker 1: episode on Twitter was the clip of Meredith um in
Speaker 1: the bathtub. Can you please explain what was going on? There?
Speaker 1: A crucial dichotomy as the women are on this bus,
Speaker 1: all of them sobbing. I should say, you know, it
Speaker 1: is very funny, but all of their immediate reactions, with
Speaker 1: the exception of Jenny, who is iconic and stone face,
Speaker 1: the whole time they're all crying. They have a friend
Speaker 1: who has basically lied to them at the federal level,
Speaker 1: and it's revealed that their friends. Yeah, all one day
Speaker 1: one day as the SWAT team breaks down my apartment door, um,
Speaker 1: and uh, they're all like very emotional with this experience, um,
Speaker 1: and trying to figure out what the fuck is going on.
Speaker 1: Lisa calls all six of her lawyers in an iconic
Speaker 1: montage that is like in House Lives history, And meanwhile
Speaker 1: Meredith Mars is drunk toasted in the bath like a
Speaker 1: huge bubble bath serving honestly me, Um, I think she
Speaker 1: has like a glass of champagne, or she doesn't, she
Speaker 1: should and she waits in that bath for hours so
Speaker 1: that it is the way that she greets the women
Speaker 1: as they arrived to the vacation home that this six
Speaker 1: hour bus is going to fully naked. She is definitely
Speaker 1: fully naked. She might be wearing like a nude panty
Speaker 1: or something like for production, but the garden venus Mary
Speaker 1: Cosby was not in the bus. She arrives ahead of
Speaker 1: time as Meredith Mars has like drawn this long bath
Speaker 1: obviously just for production purposes, and they sit and gossip
Speaker 1: about jen Shaw for so long that all the bubbles disintegrate,
Speaker 1: and so Meredith is like clutched in the corner of
Speaker 1: the bath, nude, still trying to conceal herself in gossip
Speaker 1: about federal cases. Okay, what I want to know is
Speaker 1: in the pantheon of iconic unhinged Housewives moments, Um, where
Speaker 1: does this stuck up against? Like, but now we've said it,
Speaker 1: Beverly Hills Charay pulling Kim Zolesiac's wig off on Atlanta
Speaker 1: and Scary Island from New York. You know what I
Speaker 1: thought about Scary Island and but now we've said it.
Speaker 1: When I watched this episode, it has definitely one upped.
Speaker 1: The Charay pulling off of the wig is definitely more
Speaker 1: enthralling and engaging than that episode. Compared to Scary Island.
Speaker 1: Nothing compares to Scary Nothing contars to Scary Island. However,
Speaker 1: it is definitely in that canon, definitely in top five.
Speaker 1: I don't know if you plan on watching it, but
Speaker 1: I do feel like you will be. I will. I
Speaker 1: will definitely go watch these two episodes where this happened.
Speaker 1: But I think that's as much I need to see. Okay,
Speaker 1: t b D, tb D. I hope you enjoy the
Speaker 1: ride and then that you text me under penalty of death.
Speaker 1: I absolutely will. Now that we have covered this week's
Speaker 1: pop culture happenings, let's talk about Red with Bow and Yang.
Speaker 1: I'm so excited now that we've talked about Taylor's version
Speaker 1: to really dig into how it has radicalized us as
Speaker 1: the swifties we are today. Don't don't don't Fran. You
Speaker 1: have named your stands the fran base. I have not.
Speaker 1: I have a person, really, and you have named yours
Speaker 1: the Rosebuds. Well, they actually named themselves the Rosebuds. And
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if our guest has our guest bow and Yang.
Speaker 1: Do your stands have name? I don't think they do.
Speaker 1: I don't wish. I I celebrate fan names I just
Speaker 1: don't if I think about people who like identify as
Speaker 1: liking me, then that that really freaks me out. Well,
Speaker 1: it must be different from for you because you're actually favored.
Speaker 1: No no, no, no, no no no. I already get
Speaker 1: too many d ms or tags where people will hashtag
Speaker 1: like yang yang me, and I'm like, that's not for me.
Speaker 1: You guys know that I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1: Yangang sounds perfect, stop and it just rolls off the tongue.
Speaker 1: And it's honestly a very good hashtag. It's a very
Speaker 1: good like base name. We love a rhyme, we love
Speaker 1: a rhyme, but like it just there's there. There's there's
Speaker 1: a lot of baggage that has nothing to do with me,
Speaker 1: and so therefore I don't I don't want it. You know, well,
Speaker 1: today we want you to unpack that baggage. Also, if
Speaker 1: you couldn't tell today we're talking about Red Red, what
Speaker 1: year was Red? October twelve came out and today is
Speaker 1: October two to twenty two. The magic of recording this
Speaker 1: episode is coming to you from the past. Yes, um,
Speaker 1: it is not actually live and happening as you listen
Speaker 1: to it, and we are recording it on the anniversary
Speaker 1: of Red's release. Did you mean for that to happen?
Speaker 1: I don't know. We did not. And Taylor Swift, as
Speaker 1: we know, is a numerologist famously puzzles Da Vinci code.
Speaker 1: And we may not have known that this is happening,
Speaker 1: but she knew. And all of us are Robert Langdon
Speaker 1: the main character in the da Vinci code. Well, I
Speaker 1: might be who's the villain in the da Vinci code?
Speaker 1: There's um is it Leonardo da Vinci? It's Mary Magdalench.
Speaker 1: You are Mary Magdalene? You really are? You really are? Bowen? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Tell us about Red? Okay, so Red it is one
Speaker 1: of the top albums, and this album is the top.
Speaker 1: I think this album is. I think this album is
Speaker 1: like full true true verse. I would say the lead
Speaker 1: singles are all tops, except for maybe begin Again, which
Speaker 1: seems like a bottom anthem, not an anthem, just to
Speaker 1: bottom sort of acoustic plucky song. Anyway. Red is Taylor
Speaker 1: Swift's fourth studio album. It marked the inflection of her
Speaker 1: country roots quote unquote into this pop sound that many
Speaker 1: would say that she had always sort of tipped her
Speaker 1: way into. Played with it. She played with it well,
Speaker 1: this was the first like declarative. I guess you could
Speaker 1: say that was like the first like she build it
Speaker 1: as like her first true pop album. But Red was
Speaker 1: like an album of many first This is when it started,
Speaker 1: This is when it started ended. You know. She comes
Speaker 1: out with We're Never Getting Back Together, which becomes her
Speaker 1: first number one single. Yeah, she it's her first album
Speaker 1: with Max Martin songs and hear that and you can
Speaker 1: hear that the maximal is the maximum. I was talking
Speaker 1: to Roles about how this came in the era of
Speaker 1: music where every song sounded like a pit Bull song. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's like Gangham style. And this was also the era
Speaker 1: of dub step, as you can hear on I Knew
Speaker 1: You Were Trouble and it's I think it's your longest
Speaker 1: Oh no, I think it was eventually beat by folklore.
Speaker 1: It was her longest album with the most tracks. It
Speaker 1: is a long album, a lot of tracks. It's another
Speaker 1: another kind of maximalism. There's the maximalism of Max Martin
Speaker 1: being involved, and there's a maximalism of like just the
Speaker 1: volume and the breadth of the of the song. It
Speaker 1: was also we could say an emotional maximalism. Sure, wait,
Speaker 1: go into this time because this is a very well,
Speaker 1: this is a breakup album. You know, it's a breakup
Speaker 1: album and it has I think some of her most
Speaker 1: emotive songs on it. Yes, absolutely. I think it's also
Speaker 1: the first time where people started to kind of notice
Speaker 1: this concept of the track five and Taylor Swift albums
Speaker 1: and now it's like, I guess sort of people vaguely
Speaker 1: know it maybe, but like typically her track fives on
Speaker 1: her albums are the most emotionally raw song. What are
Speaker 1: some of the other track five? Um, all you have
Speaker 1: to do with stay? Track five on Reputation was delicate? Um.
Speaker 1: Track five on speak Now is I think Dear John
Speaker 1: like and white Horse was on Fearless. I can't believe
Speaker 1: how you are summoning this swifty out of me. Look,
Speaker 1: so else would we call into the studio? We picked
Speaker 1: up our Swift follows and it was a red phone.
Speaker 1: It was a red phone, And then I said, a crisis.
Speaker 1: Can we what was the red thing? With? Ta okay,
Speaker 1: here we go. This is the red thing. This is
Speaker 1: my theory on the Red Thing. Around this time, there
Speaker 1: was an announcement that they were making a biopic about
Speaker 1: Joni Mitch Carly Simon and Carol King and I think
Speaker 1: it's called Girls Like Us or something, And the rumor
Speaker 1: was and Taylor Swift was vying for the Joni Mitchell role,
Speaker 1: and Joni Mitchell years later would say, I put a
Speaker 1: stop to that myself. I don't like her. I don't
Speaker 1: like Taylor. ID just sown Taylor. But I think Taylor
Speaker 1: has always held this musical torch for Jonie for obviously.
Speaker 1: I mean, we all love Joni Mitchell, like everyone loves
Speaker 1: Johny Mitchell. And I think, honestly, I think Taylor probably
Speaker 1: was like I want to like transition out of this
Speaker 1: like teen adjacent country pop style sound into something more
Speaker 1: quote unquote adult or mature. And she probably saw Blue
Speaker 1: by Joni Mitchell as this like north Star, Like this
Speaker 1: is like I want to create an album that has
Speaker 1: this kind of like not monument I wouldn't say Blue
Speaker 1: was like monumental, but like there's this like I'm sure
Speaker 1: she wanted some like big legacy thing like she was
Speaker 1: going after like a future classic like Blue. And then
Speaker 1: Read is a very literal song about like synesthesia whatever.
Speaker 1: But why do all of these artists of synesthesia. I'm
Speaker 1: so jealous. I don't think it's real. But Taylor doesn't
Speaker 1: have synesthesia. Well, Lord is going to call the studio
Speaker 1: right now, and how dare you invisibilize me and my keyboard? Anyways,
Speaker 1: I feel like the big thing about Taylor and I
Speaker 1: think that Joni Mitchell of it all is like her
Speaker 1: mode of like storytelling, and like I think that like
Speaker 1: the way she kind of like put herself into a
Speaker 1: into a song and like I guess reveled in her contradictions,
Speaker 1: especially with this album, was really nice. I feel like
Speaker 1: before it's like quintessential girl next door. Just what how
Speaker 1: old was she when she started fifty? She was like
Speaker 1: she was technically sixteen like when the album released, but
Speaker 1: she was like she started when she was like fourteen, right,
Speaker 1: and so in that it's like it was a lot
Speaker 1: of innocence. She was a little sassy, she had a
Speaker 1: funny sense of humor. But this was the album where
Speaker 1: she was just like I came to fuck and these
Speaker 1: are all of contradictions. It almost like was like a
Speaker 1: prequel to I was going to say a prequel to
Speaker 1: a reputation, but I'm not like no no no, no
Speaker 1: no no no, don't keep going next Yes, followed because
Speaker 1: so much of it was like the anger of Red
Speaker 1: and like the kind of that that it was. It
Speaker 1: was not like a sad breakup album. It wasn't like
Speaker 1: it was angry. It was receipts, receipts. Well. It is
Speaker 1: her first album where she acknowledges her fame, like who's
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift anyway? Like You're much records, much cooler than mine.
Speaker 1: Like this is like her finally coming into some self awareness,
Speaker 1: being like I know who I am, how I who
Speaker 1: I am in this world, who I am to people?
Speaker 1: And like I think, yes, that is a very astute observation.
Speaker 1: Also just before I forget, like one, I think the
Speaker 1: first time she like sings through another person's perspective, I
Speaker 1: think in Um, I think in Starlight, where she's like
Speaker 1: basically like singing about like being with like Kennedy and
Speaker 1: like the sixties or something like she's like traveling through
Speaker 1: time and like I think, and then like that ends
Speaker 1: up like being this the this thing that recurs in
Speaker 1: folklore where she's like different points of view, like when
Speaker 1: we last Great American Dynasty. There you go like period
Speaker 1: down my favorite hate, like one of my favorite songs
Speaker 1: on folklore is last great American dynasty. Like I can
Speaker 1: be in my car like going hard to it. I would,
Speaker 1: I would snore the line of Kennemy into American Dynasty. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I gotta, I gotta. I have snorted a lot of
Speaker 1: Wait where we were we were in Big Bear. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: when we were in Big Bear, we did and listened
Speaker 1: to folk. I'm so jealous we're getting a cabin. What
Speaker 1: I want to know is when did your relationship with
Speaker 1: Taylor Swift begin? Yea, it began with Red because I
Speaker 1: did not care for her until this album because loving
Speaker 1: her was red. Hev her was product Red was product right.
Speaker 1: That was like a decade before did I had that?
Speaker 1: I had at the Flipbone, did of the Motor product right.
Speaker 1: I guess I'm I'm pro AIDS because I never bought
Speaker 1: a productress. You are you? You hate YouTube? Who was
Speaker 1: the least thing bo right? And there's there's another there's
Speaker 1: a YouTube connection to Red. Oh my god? Is it really?
Speaker 1: I just I just feel like State of Grace the
Speaker 1: opening track, my god, it is my favorite. It's my favorite.
Speaker 1: It's my favorite Taylor Swift song ever. And sisters told me, sister,
Speaker 1: I feel so held by it is when Okay, when
Speaker 1: Spotify earlier this year did a thing where it was
Speaker 1: like gave you the like time. It was like, you're
Speaker 1: your most listened to artists, and like the songs of
Speaker 1: theirs that you listened to the most. My list was
Speaker 1: number one All Too Well, number two State of Grace,
Speaker 1: and then number three was Macavity from the Taylor Connection.
Speaker 1: She was in cats Her It was no was Taylor's Taylor.
Speaker 1: Oh my god? Okay, so play going back to placing
Speaker 1: Bowen in time and when the Red album came out,
Speaker 1: what was going on with you? I can so amazing.
Speaker 1: We're recording in midtown. I was working beautiful midtown, beautiful
Speaker 1: exotic midtown. Well, this was this was where I was
Speaker 1: at in my life. I just graduated college. I didn't
Speaker 1: know what to do, like I like basically through my
Speaker 1: degree in the trash, my science degree in the trash.
Speaker 1: Didn't want to go to med school. This was a
Speaker 1: period of tumult in my life, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'll figure it out in the city somehow. I'll just
Speaker 1: work temp jobs. I was working in a temp job
Speaker 1: on like fifty seven and Lexington, like so many girls
Speaker 1: have done before. You truly in a legacy, but truly
Speaker 1: like lunch breaks you'd walk to like Sutton Place or whatever,
Speaker 1: go to Essen and like just window shop at Bloomingdale's
Speaker 1: or something like that was like such a I was
Speaker 1: like true, like I was. I didn't know back then,
Speaker 1: but I definitely was depressed at like was going through
Speaker 1: such a rough patch in my life, like really didn't
Speaker 1: know what the hell I was gonna do. And like
Speaker 1: something happened around August when we are never getting back
Speaker 1: together came out and I was just like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: this is this is an incredible moment in my life
Speaker 1: that I am listening to this song and loving like
Speaker 1: there's something about there was something finally exciting to me
Speaker 1: about Taylor Swift working with Max Martin because I knew
Speaker 1: who Max Martin was, and I was just like, I
Speaker 1: think by by that time, people like had an awareness
Speaker 1: of who he was, like on a greater on a
Speaker 1: larger scale. It's when we kind of started to understand
Speaker 1: the producers who were behind exactly exactly, and like it
Speaker 1: was just so thrilling to me and we're never something
Speaker 1: really I don't know why I like confected myself to
Speaker 1: this song but I was like, I love this singer now.
Speaker 1: And then in the anticipation for the red release, like
Speaker 1: I would just go back and listen to her old
Speaker 1: stuff and I found it like had an appreciation for that.
Speaker 1: But then literally it was she did almost on Good
Speaker 1: Morning America. She released a promotional single like the three
Speaker 1: weeks before the album came out in October and September,
Speaker 1: and I think State of Grace was like the second
Speaker 1: one she released. And I listened to the snip of
Speaker 1: snippet of it on the broadcast of Good Morning America,
Speaker 1: and I heard the soaring chorus and I was like,
Speaker 1: what this is? What is she doing? This is going
Speaker 1: to be incredible. And then the song comes out at
Speaker 1: midnight and I listened to it and I go, this
Speaker 1: is one of the best songs in the last like
Speaker 1: five ever and that is still today. It's a transcendent song.
Speaker 1: It hits me when I start listening to it. It
Speaker 1: like starts in my gut, s's way up in my
Speaker 1: chest and explodes out of me. There are car rides
Speaker 1: in Los Angeles where I will just listen to State
Speaker 1: of Grace on repeated sister, and and this morning when
Speaker 1: I was coming to the studio. There is nothing like
Speaker 1: walking to the subway and autumnal New York listening to
Speaker 1: State very it's it's such an autumnal album and then
Speaker 1: the song and like I was, and then I have
Speaker 1: like a gustatory association with this album too, because it
Speaker 1: was like me walking on my lunch break around Midtown
Speaker 1: clutching a pumpkin spice latte listening to I knew you
Speaker 1: were trouble, being like, this is fall, this is following
Speaker 1: New York, My just salad. She now owns Fault. You know.
Speaker 1: I had a sort of similar experience of Taylor, but
Speaker 1: like slightly different because I, like, before Red, I really
Speaker 1: liked individual Taylor songs, Like I was very into our
Speaker 1: song yes, um maybe like the rhythm of it or something.
Speaker 1: So did you start with those albums or did you
Speaker 1: start with Red ASUM know, I started with those albums
Speaker 1: when she was first breaking out, but really it was
Speaker 1: song based and I was like, not a Taylor Swift fan.
Speaker 1: And then when Red came out, that's when I was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I like Taylor Swift as an artist. And then nine
Speaker 1: is what radicalized me as a Swifty was what radicalized
Speaker 1: me as a swift e. UM. I had moved to
Speaker 1: New York in after so I actually didn't listen to
Speaker 1: the album in real time, surprising no one. UM, I
Speaker 1: respect it, thank you. It wasn't not there eventually. I
Speaker 1: just you know, it's a gap. It it's a gapic
Speaker 1: playing catch up culturally. Um. And I turned twenty two
Speaker 1: and there is a song on this album. Yes, that
Speaker 1: is very good, and I was like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: I'm happy you've reconfused as well. I think her as
Speaker 1: a thirty three year old, thirty two year old singing
Speaker 1: twenty two to us people in our thirties, I think
Speaker 1: we will connect, we will, we will reconnect to it.
Speaker 1: There's going to be a new I think the same
Speaker 1: way with the Taylor's version fifteen. Yeah, there is that.
Speaker 1: There was this nostalgic aspect like grafted onto it because
Speaker 1: of the new lens she's singing through yep, yep. And
Speaker 1: I think I think that is like twenty two is
Speaker 1: like a really it does manage to capture something about
Speaker 1: that time in your life. Even for her is just
Speaker 1: like at that point she was some like millionaire like
Speaker 1: recording artist still able to like know, Okay, how can
Speaker 1: I make this somewhat relatable and that's like the store.
Speaker 1: That's the unifying theory of Taylor Swift is that she
Speaker 1: is like constantly trying to shift the folk rum on
Speaker 1: how to make herself relatable but also keep her distance
Speaker 1: very calibrated. Like I think twenty two is a perfect
Speaker 1: example of that. And I do think, yes, like there
Speaker 1: will be a nostalgiographed onto it when it comes out.
Speaker 1: I I think that's very true, and especially like what
Speaker 1: you were saying before about how this was the first
Speaker 1: time she grappled with her fame, because you know, this
Speaker 1: album was released um during like the pinnacle of hipster
Speaker 1: and and like irony culture, and so I think I
Speaker 1: think part of this album was her being like, I
Speaker 1: know I'm not cool, um and that's fine. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: just like do this anyway. And it's like a very
Speaker 1: interesting acknowledgement of like try hardness, Like there's like that
Speaker 1: Anne Hathaway quality. I mean, but I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: I was watching I watched The Witches on my flight
Speaker 1: list rewatch multiple rewatches. That's so true, though, And I like,
Speaker 1: I think that's something about like Taylor's ethos that has
Speaker 1: always resonated with me and the thing that I always
Speaker 1: like latch onto and I say this to Rouse all
Speaker 1: the time, but like it's like my best and also
Speaker 1: like my worst quality that I try so hard, you know,
Speaker 1: like I think that's in a lot of and you've
Speaker 1: got so far and in the it doesn't really matter.
Speaker 1: I feel like people our age and I love that
Speaker 1: there's this gen z Swift e like oh my group
Speaker 1: that like truly loves her, and they do make the
Speaker 1: discourse kind of fun, like very funny. This TikTok is
Speaker 1: exclusively Taylor Swift conspiracy theories. Yeah, it's it's Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories about you know, when she's releasing certain things,
Speaker 1: and it's always so funny to see them like the
Speaker 1: next day and they were like, well, we're wrong, but
Speaker 1: but also but then they're like, here's how we might
Speaker 1: still not be wrong. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're right,
Speaker 1: and then they're follow up TikTok and then there's you know,
Speaker 1: like Taylor Swift lesbian conspiracyies UM, and then there's also
Speaker 1: the conspiracy theories about um, like the Taylor's version of
Speaker 1: it all. Like a friend was telling me about this
Speaker 1: theory about the re records and why like sort of
Speaker 1: the way that they're being staggered out and why we're
Speaker 1: getting certain things before other things. And the theory is
Speaker 1: that she's releasing the album's that has the songs that
Speaker 1: gets licensed the most first. That's who devalue the catalog
Speaker 1: enough that she can just buy it back and not
Speaker 1: have to rerecord everything. Like that's why she started with Fearless,
Speaker 1: which has you know, like love story, you Belong with
Speaker 1: Me read, you know, has like we're never ever getting
Speaker 1: back together. She did Wildest Dreams when it was trending
Speaker 1: on TikTok, so she released the Love Story rereleased when
Speaker 1: it was on that when it was in an Ami
Speaker 1: Bryan Reynolds company because their friends are oh yeah yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and even and Wildest Dreams, like first it was in
Speaker 1: that horse movie movie um, and then it was a
Speaker 1: TikTok sound so um. So I do see a lot
Speaker 1: of people on TikTok were like, Okay, let's get this
Speaker 1: song trending, so she has to release it. That's so funny.
Speaker 1: Speaking of Kennemy, I feel like a lot of I
Speaker 1: feel like when I was listening to this and I
Speaker 1: was listening to like aggressiveness and anger. I do feel
Speaker 1: like a lot of this was um a foray into like,
Speaker 1: you know, bad Taylor, like she wants to be Bad Taylor,
Speaker 1: and like I was, I was, you know, looking through
Speaker 1: her you know, history and career ahead of this podcast.
Speaker 1: I was reading that when she was on the she
Speaker 1: was the opening set for like Rascal Flats, which is
Speaker 1: one of her big breaks or whatever, because the person
Speaker 1: that they already had scheduled for the opening act played
Speaker 1: too loud and too long on his first set and
Speaker 1: they fired him and hired Taylor Swift. And someone from
Speaker 1: Rascal Flats made a joke to Taylor, and I think
Speaker 1: she was like fourteen fifteen or whatever made a joke
Speaker 1: to Taylor and said, you should send him a thank
Speaker 1: you for like your gold record because it's because he
Speaker 1: got fired that you whatever. But she did she and
Speaker 1: thank you. Let her to this guy that was fired.
Speaker 1: I bring that up because bad Taylor has always been
Speaker 1: there and this is this was the first glimmers of
Speaker 1: reputation Taylor. Yes, so what did you think about because
Speaker 1: like this is for me in cultural memory, this is
Speaker 1: when she did the Harry Styles impression on what was
Speaker 1: it the v m A s or the MTV move Right,
Speaker 1: because they dated briefly during the recording of this. I
Speaker 1: do think this is when I became more interested in
Speaker 1: the persona of Taylor because maybe because I was seeing
Speaker 1: a lot of people like this was the time of
Speaker 1: my life where I was like really involved in the
Speaker 1: like underground queer art scene in Brooklyn. I was seeing
Speaker 1: a lot of people who were mining this for like
Speaker 1: performance art, like earnestly. Earnestly but also psychotically, of course,
Speaker 1: but it lends itself to that psycho psychosis. Absolutely. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: that's why swifties are a thing. Yes, are crazy. I'm
Speaker 1: among you. I were crazy. It's the one group I
Speaker 1: will never piss off. I make sure to to tweet
Speaker 1: about being swifty, like at least once a month so
Speaker 1: that when I need them they will be there. And girl,
Speaker 1: I have crossed the swift Wait really yeah, I would
Speaker 1: let to talk about it. Do you want to want
Speaker 1: to go first? Mine's like so embarrassing, minds mind stupid
Speaker 1: to mine. I was working with Rows at the time
Speaker 1: out magazine and I it was the year that Casey one,
Speaker 1: you know, Record of the Year, all his awards, and
Speaker 1: I was just so in love with her. And at
Speaker 1: the time I was really angry with Taylor, I think
Speaker 1: for you know, like the reasons that everyone else was,
Speaker 1: but also like maybe there there's some unfoundedness just being
Speaker 1: angry because there are a lot of celebrities that don't
Speaker 1: talk about Donald Trump. But she was one of the
Speaker 1: ones where I was just like, come on, girl, like
Speaker 1: what are you doing? And anyways, we don't have to
Speaker 1: get into like the documentary of at all and how
Speaker 1: she reconciled that. But like, I was very annoyed with Taylor,
Speaker 1: and so I posted a meme of of I feel
Speaker 1: very innocent and funny meme of um, Kasey must Gray
Speaker 1: is pushing Taylor Swift off a building. Um, and I
Speaker 1: remember when you did that, and it did go viral,
Speaker 1: but like in a in it, I think and in
Speaker 1: a mixed review, in a mixed reviews way and Swift ease,
Speaker 1: they I mean, they found me and they found my
Speaker 1: d M. There was blood in the water, they found
Speaker 1: my friends d M, they found my thought. How did
Speaker 1: they get They didn't find Social Security? That I know.
Speaker 1: I'm I'm grateful that I've survived. This is the bad
Speaker 1: art friend thing where it's like they can subpoena my
Speaker 1: mean text, but it was. It was a terrifying moment.
Speaker 1: I never deleted the tweets, so you can go ahead
Speaker 1: and retweet and yeah, reinvigorate this, per I mean, that's
Speaker 1: the thing. I'm a tweet deleter. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: want to keep it, not above it. But you know,
Speaker 1: it was a part of like just that, that the
Speaker 1: fury because at the time, I still I still was
Speaker 1: a Taylor Swift Like. I think that's why the disappointment
Speaker 1: was so strong and care if you yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 1: remember hearing Matt talk about that, Matt Rogers talking about
Speaker 1: this even like you can be the most visceral Swifty
Speaker 1: and still be so disappointed of course. But anyways, longs short,
Speaker 1: I survived. The Swifties did try to get me fired
Speaker 1: um on on many accounts, the email from out from
Speaker 1: all as if they could find we're gonna fire you
Speaker 1: from being a bit about a pop star, like excuse
Speaker 1: all my podcast network. Anyways, So what was your swift?
Speaker 1: My swifty story is similar. It was election day sixteen
Speaker 1: and we're I don't know if you remember, she was
Speaker 1: silent the whole the whole election cycle, but she was
Speaker 1: busy at trying out celebrities on her tour, and then
Speaker 1: on election day she posted a photo on Instagram of
Speaker 1: her winning in line at the polls. And then I
Speaker 1: think I tweeted, yeah, I quote tweeted or I replied,
Speaker 1: I was like toot too little, too fucking late, or
Speaker 1: something like that, something so stupid um. And then of
Speaker 1: course the Swifties saw it and then like tore into me.
Speaker 1: They didn't fucking go through my ship though, ducks you.
Speaker 1: But I like made the mistake of replying to a
Speaker 1: lot of them and being like you're literally twelve, you
Speaker 1: do not step to this out a ever ever. I
Speaker 1: know it's such a miscalculation. I mean, I like I
Speaker 1: didn't know then, we did not know. I mean I
Speaker 1: will say that, like, I think the Swifties need to
Speaker 1: own this actually, because if she is acknowledging it in
Speaker 1: like her interviews and her press that like, yeah, I
Speaker 1: should have spoken up more during the election cycle than
Speaker 1: like that's it, Like you have to, like Swifties have to,
Speaker 1: like we all have to like own that. And I
Speaker 1: feel somewhat vindicated, And I'm sure I don't know if
Speaker 1: you do too. I felt very vindicated because she kind
Speaker 1: of just proved herself like wrong over and over again.
Speaker 1: And then she she finally disavowed Trump hours before she
Speaker 1: released her Lover Her Right, and I was like, yeah,
Speaker 1: right under the wire. But like, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: feel differently about it now, but but like I feel like, um,
Speaker 1: I remember when um the what was like the worst song,
Speaker 1: the me song me, and like so I had to
Speaker 1: block it on Spotify so it wouldn't come up when
Speaker 1: I listened to I do miss hey kids spelling and
Speaker 1: stunt anyway, it's spelling, It's fun. Yeah. But then when
Speaker 1: she did like the whole the Pride video that like
Speaker 1: kind of like it's like Google, lgbt Q celebrities filled
Speaker 1: it whatever, and uum I remember tweeting about that and
Speaker 1: trying to nuance it and being like, what is this
Speaker 1: like opportunistic bullshit? I said it in a much more
Speaker 1: salient and incisive way, of course, but like Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: fans would like they literally tweeted like like fact, fucking
Speaker 1: faggot whatever, And then I would go to their like, um,
Speaker 1: go to their bio, and the link in their bio
Speaker 1: would be like the equality Like um, it was the
Speaker 1: Equality Act of linked to their like in their bio
Speaker 1: calling me a fagot, and I was like, this is
Speaker 1: this there's just no self there's no self awareness. I
Speaker 1: think it is swift um. And also this does radiate
Speaker 1: out to all of the stand um stands do the
Speaker 1: same thing as It's just like they they have to
Speaker 1: love their faith in a way that is destructive, that
Speaker 1: is destructive and does not allow for nuance. Because and
Speaker 1: I used to find this a lot as a gaga
Speaker 1: Stan and you and I have talked about this before. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, like part of part of my like loving
Speaker 1: an artist is being critical of them. And it's unfortunate
Speaker 1: that especially a lot of these young stands, I feel
Speaker 1: like they have to love these pop stars who will
Speaker 1: never be perfect in a way in which they are
Speaker 1: always right about everything and they can never be critical
Speaker 1: about them at all, and anyone who is must literally die. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: that's so funny that you said that. I unfortunately searched
Speaker 1: Taylor on like my Twitter and I found this. Yes,
Speaker 1: this is this is the This is a classic swiftymeme.
Speaker 1: Someone who's handles at Taylor ts so an underscore, I
Speaker 1: want to kill myself. They tweeted, and then and then
Speaker 1: the person replying, wait to lover drops please, we can't
Speaker 1: lose sales. That's a nice Yeah, well as is the
Speaker 1: Swifty who went to prison because she because she refused
Speaker 1: to join the Israeli army. Oh my god. Well then
Speaker 1: we obviously are on hurt. We were, yeah, yeah, because
Speaker 1: we I mean, this podcast supports BDS. Yes, comrade, Swift, Comrade,
Speaker 1: there is an overlap between like just a hardcore radical
Speaker 1: socialists and swifties. Well, I mean Red Red Red the
Speaker 1: communist and she was letting us know along with a
Speaker 1: little wink or or it's like the log having Republican anthelm,
Speaker 1: maybe being facetious, but you could be right. You could
Speaker 1: be right about it. So how do you think Taylor
Speaker 1: changed after Red? I think she changed in every way,
Speaker 1: Like this is what I'm saying, Like there was I
Speaker 1: think there was this line and the people will will
Speaker 1: say that it's I think like it read. And so
Speaker 1: much has been said about how Taylor Swift is a
Speaker 1: very good quote unquote business person as far as like
Speaker 1: laying out a strategy. But I do think this was
Speaker 1: a conscious choice for her to be like, let me
Speaker 1: do a transitional album. I mean, let me not fully crossover,
Speaker 1: yet let me like persuasively let everybody know that I
Speaker 1: can do the pop thing by releasing this album that
Speaker 1: is like a very carefully calibrated blend between like country
Speaker 1: and pop and some almost like country. Paris will site, Well,
Speaker 1: she was always pop, but I feel like this was
Speaker 1: like the album that she needed to put out in
Speaker 1: order to like get to version of Taylor Swift. But
Speaker 1: she didn't sell out this, like she didn't like half
Speaker 1: asked the fact that this was a transitional album. She
Speaker 1: like really poured everything into it. And I think I
Speaker 1: think it's I really think it's one of the best albums.
Speaker 1: And where does it fall for you? Okay on the
Speaker 1: on your ranking of Taylor Swift album this is Wild,
Speaker 1: I would I will say it's number two after after
Speaker 1: being edged out by Reputation. No, I was not. I know,
Speaker 1: I know people a second everybody everybody hold on I
Speaker 1: think reputation. I listened back to and I go, this
Speaker 1: is the only album where I think she's making like
Speaker 1: an observation about society or about the world or about herself,
Speaker 1: Like I just it is it isn't there's an observation
Speaker 1: that's like ingrained in the entire thing. Red is like
Speaker 1: this like beautiful maximalist thing of like let me try
Speaker 1: all of these things at once and you're and it
Speaker 1: will work. Um. And so that's why I like read
Speaker 1: we we don't have to get too much into reputation
Speaker 1: and why I love it. But I do fucking love
Speaker 1: that album despite hating it when it first came out,
Speaker 1: being like this is crazy. This is for me, of
Speaker 1: all the Taylor albums, like, besides Folklore, Reputation feels like
Speaker 1: the one that I is the most lived in for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: like it was such I spent so much time with
Speaker 1: it when it came out. It does not quite make
Speaker 1: it to the top of the list for me. And
Speaker 1: I want to know, do you think has Folklore? Have
Speaker 1: Folklore and Evermore been out long enough for you to
Speaker 1: place them? I think so because I think I've gotten
Speaker 1: to that point as well, only just recently. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: but we talked about this, so you're more of an
Speaker 1: Evermore girl. No, I'm more of a Folklore girl. God
Speaker 1: blessed and Folklore is my favorite Taylor Swift album. Folklore
Speaker 1: is up there. It's it's it's the three our reputation,
Speaker 1: Read and Folklore just like very closely orbiting each other.
Speaker 1: For me, it's Folklore red and very good. I love
Speaker 1: so much, excellent album. I think Read and stuff for
Speaker 1: this thing where they dip in the second half a
Speaker 1: little bit too much. Sure Folklore is like virtuosic and
Speaker 1: likes such. It was so like she really stuck the
Speaker 1: landing on it, and like what an incredible album reputation
Speaker 1: is Like I'll killer no filler to me, every no
Speaker 1: truly no skips and it's about like fifteen tracks, like
Speaker 1: and it says something about like wow, like the only
Speaker 1: thing you have at the end of the day is yourself,
Speaker 1: even when you're someone like Taylor Swift and you have
Speaker 1: all like in you know you or like when when
Speaker 1: people are fucking like trying to tear you down, like
Speaker 1: you have to have this like solid, solid sense of
Speaker 1: self in order to survive something that seems completely unprocessable.
Speaker 1: Like I think, I don't know, this is so gross,
Speaker 1: but I listened to that album now and I think
Speaker 1: this is like the this is the most astute meditation
Speaker 1: on fame that I've ever like really encountered, and like
Speaker 1: I'll relate to it in that way a little bit um,
Speaker 1: but anyway that those are my three. I also feel
Speaker 1: like her like, um, the kind of thing that she
Speaker 1: was drawing into question with the album about like fame
Speaker 1: and like how um we consume celebrity. I think that
Speaker 1: the critical response to reputation and how people are kind
Speaker 1: of immediately flop. Yeah, they kind of proved her right
Speaker 1: exactly exactly. I mean, because like I feel like when
Speaker 1: I listened to some was like my gateway drug and
Speaker 1: too Taylor. I guess technically twenty two, if I were
Speaker 1: to like metaphorize this, okay, twenty two is like me
Speaker 1: having a little bit of weed part of somebody's like
Speaker 1: high school party. And then in nineteen in nineteen nine
Speaker 1: is like in the boom boom room and I'm like
Speaker 1: I'm doing coked. Yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 1: And so when love that metaphor yeah, thank you, thank you,
Speaker 1: um blank space was like I don't know, goodbye. Have
Speaker 1: I ever listened to a song that many times in
Speaker 1: a row. I remember when the second the song came out,
Speaker 1: I was late to something and I stood outside already
Speaker 1: like fifteen, stood outside to watch the video on my phone.
Speaker 1: It was it really was. And the thing about that
Speaker 1: video was the way she drew so much even more
Speaker 1: She's always been like drawn self awareness into her work,
Speaker 1: but that was a moment where she was like, this
Speaker 1: is the caricature of me, and I know you think
Speaker 1: it's funny and I think it's funny too, and that
Speaker 1: grew into like reputation, you know. I think Blank Spaces
Speaker 1: when she reached the singularity, when it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: everyone has heard this song on this video and do
Speaker 1: you remember the there was like a Grammy performance she did.
Speaker 1: I was just about to bring this up and it's
Speaker 1: such a good fucking performance. Yeah, I was, okay, So
Speaker 1: I was actually talking about one of the earlier performances
Speaker 1: of Blank Space she did where she was like levitating
Speaker 1: and there was like fire. Yeah, wait, what performance are
Speaker 1: you talking about, though, I'm talking about Grammy Museum where
Speaker 1: she's on the acoustic guitar. Well that's also I'm sorry, yeah,
Speaker 1: but but let's talk about that because that performance of
Speaker 1: Wildest Dreams on the electric guitar, and she she she
Speaker 1: had never sounded better, and I think that that's none
Speaker 1: of her top vocal performances. She's the vocalist, she is
Speaker 1: without a doubt and like truly, like I also just
Speaker 1: love the last full minute of twenty two. Sorry I'm
Speaker 1: jumping all over the place, but the last fumnute of
Speaker 1: twenty two is just her belting her fucking tits off,
Speaker 1: like yeah, yeah, yeah, like just like it's like any
Speaker 1: like just going crazy for a full minute, like like,
Speaker 1: go back and listen to it. The last minute of
Speaker 1: this four minute long song. A quarter of this song,
Speaker 1: the last quarter of this song was heard just fat wailing. Anyway.
Speaker 1: What do we think? Grammy performance? Amazing? I don't know
Speaker 1: how much more I can say about it. It's just
Speaker 1: like so it's so cathartic to watch, and um, it
Speaker 1: feels like a triumphant moment for her, such a triumph
Speaker 1: and her in that like black turtleneck with the guitar
Speaker 1: and she her her hair was so good, speaking of
Speaker 1: her hair was red when she got bangs. Red was
Speaker 1: when she got was red, was when she si yes,
Speaker 1: red was when she straightened her hair and then got bangs. Yes,
Speaker 1: god wait that is oh my gosh, yeah, the ramification
Speaker 1: truly getting bangs and straightening her hair and she has
Speaker 1: had bangs ever since. In the same timespan where Joni
Speaker 1: Mitchell said you should fucking die. Um, that was really hard.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of Joonie is like one of
Speaker 1: my be all end alls, and I'm really disappointed at her.
Speaker 1: Well it's like, but I think, but you can't be
Speaker 1: like that girl. But I think she but like it
Speaker 1: does like play into the narrative of Taylor Swift, which
Speaker 1: is that even though she didn't get that like co
Speaker 1: sign from Joni Mitchell, Red is still her blue, and
Speaker 1: it is still her It is still her blue, and
Speaker 1: it is as I think impactful for people of our
Speaker 1: generation as Blue probably was for people of that generation.
Speaker 1: I think, so, I really think so. I mean it's
Speaker 1: like Blue. I would I would honestly say that like
Speaker 1: control by scissors, like our generations Blue. That's real, that's
Speaker 1: really true. That's really true. But like Red is just
Speaker 1: this like Red is like epic. I don't think Blue
Speaker 1: is like epic. Red is very restrained. Red is like expansive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but but also like what Red does is like her
Speaker 1: songwriting has never been better. Besides maybe like folks, I
Speaker 1: do think some of the songwriting on folklore is truly
Speaker 1: still like poetic. But some of my favorite. I think
Speaker 1: the way that she talked about herself and her relationships
Speaker 1: in the lyricism of it is incredible. And she was literally,
Speaker 1: like even before she turned years old, writing these songs,
Speaker 1: like writing a song like Treacherous where the structure is
Speaker 1: verse mini chorus, verse, mini chorus, full like post chorus, slash,
Speaker 1: like bridge ish into like another mini course into like
Speaker 1: an even bigger post course, like I love Differ so
Speaker 1: much did I say this already? It's an important album
Speaker 1: because it was important for Taylor in that it made
Speaker 1: Taylor like who she is now. It's when she crystallized
Speaker 1: the final form final form. Sorry I'm being self referential awful,
Speaker 1: but like I again, I did not care for I
Speaker 1: was ambivalent about Taylor Swift until read and then something
Speaker 1: just clipped where I was like, I'm going to be
Speaker 1: obsessed with you for the rest of my life. Well,
Speaker 1: you know, we've talked a lot today about how formative
Speaker 1: the album Red was UM, and we thought it would
Speaker 1: be fun to talk, you know, like we talk a
Speaker 1: lot on this podcast about things that were really important
Speaker 1: to us in our childhoods UM and how we like
Speaker 1: became the people we are, So we thought it would
Speaker 1: be fun to have you tell us about the Bow
Speaker 1: and Yang starter pack? What are the items the things
Speaker 1: in your arsenal as a kid that you know you
Speaker 1: either always need to have a round or define who
Speaker 1: you were. This is this is a really perfect framework
Speaker 1: of a question of a prompt. Um, I will say
Speaker 1: random like a sampling. It's like, let's talk about love
Speaker 1: by Celine dion Um, It's m a game Boy with
Speaker 1: like Kirby Tilton, Tumble and Pokemon Blue, Pokemon Crystal, and
Speaker 1: then like Bagel bites from Costco. You're a Costco girl, yeah,
Speaker 1: Costco girl, and then a girl oh yes, yes, yes
Speaker 1: of course, and then um, how many how many items
Speaker 1: do people typically bottle off? You're the first one, okay,
Speaker 1: as they want? Those are three? Those are those are
Speaker 1: the three pillars Bagel Bites, game Boy and and and Selene.
Speaker 1: But then like it's it's honestly like it was. It
Speaker 1: was a lot of like me trying to like draw
Speaker 1: my own and original anime characters and like having no
Speaker 1: one to show them too, because it was like I
Speaker 1: knew it was a little too embarrassing, like having some
Speaker 1: shame already built into like my work and my output
Speaker 1: is like truly, like it is like since day one,
Speaker 1: like a part of like since day one, you had
Speaker 1: to have learned at some point drawing. Yeah, I love
Speaker 1: to draw. No, no no, no, I mean the shame, the shame.
Speaker 1: Oh sure, sure were cultured into shame. But like I
Speaker 1: would like draw stuff and then show it to people
Speaker 1: at school, and for a period of time it was
Speaker 1: like cool that I could do this, and then it
Speaker 1: was like and then it was just it would just
Speaker 1: literally be me like getting lost for hours just at
Speaker 1: my desk with like reams of paper that my dad
Speaker 1: would bring home from his office, um, and I would
Speaker 1: just draw characters, cut them out, put them in like
Speaker 1: a photo album with like a plastic film, and I
Speaker 1: would just flipped through it and like beat out a
Speaker 1: whole season of like some anime that would never get
Speaker 1: made in my head. But that was like that was
Speaker 1: like a writer early thing where it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm like your story, story telling, world building, yeah exactly. Okay,
Speaker 1: sorry to expose us, but did you know that Rose
Speaker 1: and I were also closeted childhood drawers. We were so
Speaker 1: much anime stuff mythology. Huh, Like you know who else?
Speaker 1: Patty Harrison and I think there's like there's like we
Speaker 1: all need to come out of the shadows with this
Speaker 1: and make an adult cartoon series, which no one's ever done.
Speaker 1: But but fran is still a pretty good artist. He
Speaker 1: actually drew the mock up for our like our photo
Speaker 1: shoot like cover art that we're doing. So I my
Speaker 1: starter pack would be like Jagged Little Pill. The album. Um,
Speaker 1: it would be some book and I'm going to say
Speaker 1: right now, since it's spooky season, it would be Curses Incorporated,
Speaker 1: which is an anthology series of like modern of like
Speaker 1: modern spooky stories about a boy who like buys hexes online.
Speaker 1: I'm cool and um oh, and then it would be
Speaker 1: the afghan that my grandma nit me that I used
Speaker 1: to wrap around myself as a dress. Was like I'm
Speaker 1: a girl and I used to be Dorothy from the
Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz. There you go. Wow, I love that. Okay.
Speaker 1: Mine was definitely um Hotel Paper by Michelle Brand checked
Speaker 1: out from the library. I didn't even own it. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, We're going to have to do a Michelle
Speaker 1: Branch episode. Oh yeah, without a doubt that she was
Speaker 1: a big part of my secular awakening when I was
Speaker 1: like I discovered that everyone else wasn't listening to like
Speaker 1: Christian Christian reliant kay and it actually people also listen
Speaker 1: to Michelle Branch. Oh my god, it's so important. I
Speaker 1: didn't know you were a Christian rock person for a second.
Speaker 1: I know the words to almost every single, every single
Speaker 1: Relying Case song in their first five albums. I've never
Speaker 1: talked to you about my switch foot phase in like
Speaker 1: middle school, high school, I had a switch with it
Speaker 1: was it was just that it was the it was
Speaker 1: right after a watch to remember when like they really
Speaker 1: were like big a cross overstream. It was there red.
Speaker 1: It was there red, Remember there Red? But then you
Speaker 1: know what I like, I was obsessed. I thought, you know,
Speaker 1: I thought the song to any four, which is the
Speaker 1: last song off of that album, that was like the
Speaker 1: best song of all time. I would and we were
Speaker 1: like twelve, Well one day I'll be twenty four and
Speaker 1: this is going to be so meaningful. And then you
Speaker 1: turned twenty four and you were like Switch, which I
Speaker 1: mean like the fact that like we're like shipping on
Speaker 1: twenty four by Switch, but we're still like beautiful revering Taylor.
Speaker 1: That is the power of Taylor Taylor. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: like twenty one. Yes, is there? I don't know If
Speaker 1: there an, I don't know. I'm trying to do numerology
Speaker 1: with no with no landing point. Anyways. Also, in my
Speaker 1: started back Um Harvest moon On, Oh my gosh, I
Speaker 1: loved like um games without any conflict at yes, farming
Speaker 1: game if you don't know it, Um. I was an
Speaker 1: oregonmy kid. Instead of having friends, I did Oregon. I
Speaker 1: wanted to do Oregon. I could make paper cranes really well,
Speaker 1: so could on. I can make a lot of things.
Speaker 1: I could still make a paper crane. Today had stacks
Speaker 1: of Oregony books and I had an oregonmy party, which
Speaker 1: is it was really sad. I invited three of my
Speaker 1: crushes and they all came. That's cute. So you you
Speaker 1: were into video games, Yeah, I don't. I don't like
Speaker 1: games of any kind. I respect. That's kind of surprising
Speaker 1: to me because you were so into like fantasy and
Speaker 1: sci fi and so many things that come with the
Speaker 1: culture of gaming. Yeah, but I'm I like the actual story.
Speaker 1: I don't want to have to like play I would
Speaker 1: I would rather read a book than play a game. Sure,
Speaker 1: but now what now? What? Now? What I know some
Speaker 1: people do is they'll just watch a playthrough on like YouTube,
Speaker 1: or they'll just watch the cut scenes of a game.
Speaker 1: So I might just start doing this now with like,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I haven't played the Last of Us, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, I need to know what this game is
Speaker 1: and I need to like I might just like sit
Speaker 1: down and watch like an eight hour play through anyway, Sorry,
Speaker 1: why not when it sounds fun? Do you think Taylor games? No, okay,
Speaker 1: and that's okay, she's too disciplined. Like Taylor is the
Speaker 1: girl that watches her boyfriend play video games. You know,
Speaker 1: that's like a whole I think. I think Joe is
Speaker 1: like in his dog crate with the with the Nintendo switch,
Speaker 1: and Taylor is somewhere else. Oh I see, yeah, to
Speaker 1: get the kid that the thing. Yeah. The only other
Speaker 1: thing I could think of, maybe that Rose and I
Speaker 1: have in common is um Delaire's Big Book of Greekness.
Speaker 1: That's definitely one of the past things that I started drawing.
Speaker 1: It's one of my first like sexual awakenings. Remember being
Speaker 1: horny for my own drawings. Yes, oh my god. I
Speaker 1: would draw like naked dude, yeah, and I'd be like, oh,
Speaker 1: oh no, is this this is going to be a problem,
Speaker 1: like I remember wow. Also when my starter pack would
Speaker 1: be Muppet Treasure Island the movie um and and um
Speaker 1: a um. And this is not like a specific action figure,
Speaker 1: but this is something that I used to do with
Speaker 1: my action figures. I might have told you this before.
Speaker 1: When I would get like an action figure as a
Speaker 1: gift for my birthday or for Hanukah, I would open
Speaker 1: it up, you know, and be like yeah. And then
Speaker 1: that night I would um put it back in the packaging,
Speaker 1: tape it back up, and wrap it again so that
Speaker 1: I could open it again. But that's sick, that's erotic,
Speaker 1: because for me, it wasn't about the thing itself. It
Speaker 1: was about the experience of like opening it and the
Speaker 1: thrill of that. But honestly, like very developed of you
Speaker 1: to like pinpoint that as like the moment, like the
Speaker 1: thrilling moment, the moment of pleasure or whatever, and then
Speaker 1: you recreate that and restage that like that is. But
Speaker 1: it was never the same. It was never the wow.
Speaker 1: I Love Love and I'm I'm sitting with two Henson
Speaker 1: heads YouTube YouTube. Both loved them Apo Love, Miss Piggy
Speaker 1: Love Kermit. I had a Kermit stuffed animal that like
Speaker 1: I ran ragged. Kermit's hot, Kermit's hot, Kermit is hot. Yeah, Kermit,
Speaker 1: I'm doing the Kermit Arms. Listeners, you can tweet us
Speaker 1: your takes on this week's episode. I'm actually really excited
Speaker 1: to know what y'all think of the podcast. Rose. Are
Speaker 1: you excited? Rose? Yes? But only if it's positive? Okay,
Speaker 1: no critiquet. I'm your co host fran Toronto. You can
Speaker 1: find me at Franz Squish co on any social media
Speaker 1: you want. I'm Rose damn You. You can find me
Speaker 1: out Rose Damn you on Twitter and Instagram. You can
Speaker 1: subscribe to Like a Virgin anywhere you listen to podcasts,
Speaker 1: and definitely leave us a review because it helps brand
Speaker 1: new podcast quite a lot. Like a Virgin is an
Speaker 1: i Heeart Radio production. Our producer is Phoebe Unter, with
Speaker 1: support from Lindsay Hoffman, Julian Weller, Jess Crane Chitch and
Speaker 1: Nikki Utour. Until next week, See You Later Visions Chow.
Speaker 1: Our producer Phoebe has told us that our podcast is
Speaker 1: a Scorpio Sun Aquarius moon leave ro rising. So do
Speaker 1: with that? Why you will do that? Why you will
Speaker 1: leave a comment? If you have an opinion about it,
Speaker 1: Diam