WEBVTT - Interview: Astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.680 Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:14.080 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.800 My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. And 0:00:17.000 --> 0:00:21.160 today's episode is a bit of a special treat. Uh. 0:00:21.280 --> 0:00:26.439 We just sit down yesterday and we interviewed Neil Degrass Hyson, who, 0:00:26.960 --> 0:00:30.880 in addition to being an accomplished astrophysicist, is pretty much 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:35.520 a science superstar. Yeah, he's everywhere and I'm sure people 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:40.400 have probably seen him on Colbert or Jon Stewart recently 0:00:40.440 --> 0:00:43.720 on Bill Maher. Um, he's been a nova like all 0:00:43.720 --> 0:00:47.080 the time. Yeah, yeah, he's he will Basically he is 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.080 the least camera shy scientist I've ever heard of. Like, 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:54.720 he's just a huge extrovert and he's amazing doing a 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:57.440 great advocate for science, and it's a real talent for 0:00:57.440 --> 0:00:59.920 for taking this stuff down and just in talking about science, 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.360 uh in a way that his intended audience can really 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:06.039 understand it. Be that intended audience, Um, you know, the 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.440 average Joe, the the listener, you know what, viewer of 0:01:09.480 --> 0:01:12.800 the Daily Show, or politician looking to pass some sort 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:15.000 of bills. So yeah, we were very excited to be 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:17.520 able to get on the phone with him and ask 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:19.840 him some questions about what he's been up to and 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:23.280 his thoughts on science and where does the state of 0:01:23.319 --> 0:01:25.480 it so to speak, all right, so let's uh let's 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:27.880 go ahead and jump into it here. The first question 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:30.360 we had for Dr Tyson had to do with the 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:33.720 fact that there is a new Cosmos television show coming 0:01:33.720 --> 0:01:36.960 in so it's gonna be a little little ways off. 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:40.120 But Cosmos is, of course the classic Carl Sagan show 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:43.280 that just continues to uh to to have a big 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:46.000 influence on people like people who grew up watching the show. 0:01:46.040 --> 0:01:48.840 We're just really inspired about science and about the universe 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.720 and cosmology and just a just a really beautiful show. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:54.880 And so they're they're bringing it back. Tyson is the 0:01:54.920 --> 0:01:56.920 new host, and so we had to ask him about 0:01:57.120 --> 0:01:59.920 stepping in and filling Carl Sagan's shoes. It's a twenty 0:02:00.040 --> 0:02:05.320 first century version of Cosmos, conceived as though it was 0:02:05.360 --> 0:02:09.320 the first time it would it would be aired. However 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:11.400 we already know. But what I mean by that is 0:02:11.680 --> 0:02:16.400 there's a lot of issues and science frontiers and cultural 0:02:16.880 --> 0:02:22.320 social um dimensions to the relationship of science to society 0:02:22.680 --> 0:02:28.320 that mattered today more or differently than they mattered years ago. Okay, 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:30.520 so we couldn't help it, but we had to ask, 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:33.920 you'd probably have to wear a turtle neck then in 0:02:33.919 --> 0:02:38.080 the new Consince. You know, if I do, it would 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:41.760 be some sort of back to our homage to Carl. 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.639 But there are other ways we we can think of 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:49.280 honoring him without the turtle n I was a big 0:02:49.280 --> 0:02:51.800 turtle netwear in my day, but right, these are other 0:02:51.880 --> 0:02:55.640 days that we're talking about, and so, uh so we'll 0:02:56.080 --> 0:02:58.560 and my my wardrobe was not yet determined. Actually, we 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.400 have to consult people who think deeply about this sort 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:02.800 of thing. So he got a big kick out of that. 0:03:03.200 --> 0:03:05.079 Come to ask him about the sweater, I wanted to 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:07.400 ask him. It was very intimidating talking to I wanted 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:09.679 to ask him whether he would have his own spaceship 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:13.240 in the show, like like Sagan had. But um, you know, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:15.000 like you said, they're still not even sure exactly what 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:17.160 he's going to be wearing this, so perhaps those decisions, 0:03:17.160 --> 0:03:20.000 that's right, that's right. The best minds are on it, though, 0:03:20.360 --> 0:03:23.600 So we also wanted to ask him some some more 0:03:23.639 --> 0:03:26.800 hard core science questions here. We were particularly interested what 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.040 Tyson's take on this question would be, if he had 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.799 had unlimited funding in his disposal, what two large scale 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.600 astrophysics projects would he like to see realized and why. 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.720 He had a pretty awesome answer, And here's what his 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.360 answer was. We still don't know enough about the structural 0:03:42.400 --> 0:03:47.640 integrity of asteroids too too to claim that we have 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:50.760 any clue about how to deflect them, or to destroy them, 0:03:50.920 --> 0:03:56.160 or to mitigate what would otherwise be an extinction level 0:03:57.120 --> 0:04:02.640 catastrophe on Earth, something that's happened before. So I would 0:04:02.640 --> 0:04:05.320 do all the above. So so you know what NASA 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:09.080 would be. NASA would be like a space depot and 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:11.200 you go there and say, okay, I need to go 0:04:11.280 --> 0:04:14.960 to an asteroid that's orbiting beyond Mars, and you would 0:04:15.000 --> 0:04:20.680 assemble the rocket propulsion elements to to your to your 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:25.039 spacecraft necessary to reach that goal. Right, So it's like 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:27.039 choosing what kind of fuel tank and what kind of 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:28.760 supplies and you pack it up and then you go. 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:31.640 And so it's not let's only go to this one 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.160 destination and that would be what we that that will 0:04:34.200 --> 0:04:36.480 be the mission. No, all of space should be the mission. 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:41.200 Otherwise it's it's a one they're all one off you know, 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:45.200 if expansion of human presence, we're all one off, we 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.080 would all explore and then go back into the cave. 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.839 It's okay, we did that. Um, let's think of something 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.160 different to do. But of course, the history of our 0:04:52.200 --> 0:04:55.520 species is one where we explore, we pitch tent, and 0:04:55.520 --> 0:04:59.480 then we explore from there and find ways to survive. 0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:04.480 And and our species has thrived because of this fact. 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.800 And space is simply another frontier where I had full 0:05:09.839 --> 0:05:12.560 expectations that we continue the way we have. So I 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:17.359 thought that was very thoughtful in talking about space is 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:21.520 more of a cohesive mission exploring space, and that we 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.919 shouldn't necessarily have these one offs. And I really like 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:27.440 this this idea that we we don't just stop, you know, 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:29.200 we just don't go back to our caves and stop 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.080 thinking about these things and stop exploring. Yeah, And and 0:05:33.120 --> 0:05:36.720 that NASA should be like a you know, a home 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.479 depot for space travel that I thought was pretty great. 0:05:39.520 --> 0:05:42.760 And I could see like the little orange uh pests 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:46.600 or whatever they wear, um, and how cool would that 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.279 be to go and get your space parts there? But 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:51.279 you know, this is sort of big The question or 0:05:51.440 --> 0:05:53.600 or made us think a little bit more about funding 0:05:53.680 --> 0:05:57.280 and how we are hamstrung by that currently in our 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:01.520 environment we don't necessarily have all the funding out our disposals. 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:05.000 So we wanted to ask him about, uh, the sort 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.200 of unfortunate state of funding for space exploration. And we 0:06:08.480 --> 0:06:11.000 had wondered if he thought it was just a current 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:14.440 political zeitgeast, or if we're just not doing good enough 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:19.040 job of explaining why space exploration is important. And this 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.040 is what he had to say about it. Space exploration 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.400 should be funded, not for any normal reason. That's given 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:26.760 the fact to have a book coming out in February, 0:06:26.880 --> 0:06:31.279 which was originally titled Failure to Launch The Dreams and 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:34.800 Delusions of Space Enthusiasts, but the publisher felt the title 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:37.360 was too depressing, so we came up with a less 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:41.280 depressing title and what it will appear in the form 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:45.640 of a book titled Space Chronicles. It's every thought I've 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.000 ever had about our past, present, and future in space, 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:53.840 and out of that comes certain realizations that we've never 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.159 gone into space because it's a frontier, or because it's 0:06:57.279 --> 0:07:01.120 to explore, or because there's scientific to goveries to be had. 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.640 We've never gone into space with the Man program for 0:07:04.680 --> 0:07:07.000 that reason. The man program is the lion's share of 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:12.000 the cost of space exploration. So and in fact, we've 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:17.520 never gone into space without humans above a certain cost level, 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:21.480 because there's a radar level below which you can fund 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.680 almost any science you want, and that's a function of 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.440 how wealthy the nation is that's conducting the activity. The 0:07:27.480 --> 0:07:31.760 Hubble telescope, for example, that's essentially just at the limit, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:34.720 a little bit below the funding radar. You can get 0:07:34.840 --> 0:07:38.800 multibillion dollar projects funded over the years, but when you're 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:44.840 up around ten billion, thirty billion, that's where discovery and 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:47.520 it's our mission, it's in our DNA. None of that works. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:51.320 None of it, or at least the history of the 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:57.640 funding of expensive projects of our species and all cultures 0:07:58.760 --> 0:08:02.400 and all civilizations, there is no evidence that we have 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:07.240 ever responded positively to those kinds of drivers. The only 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:12.720 drivers that really stimulate people to spend money is war 0:08:13.840 --> 0:08:17.800 and economics, and a third one which is less common today, 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:22.120 the praise of royalty or deity. There was a day 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:24.040 when you could use you can invoke one or both 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:25.920 of those and you can get anything done. That's how 0:08:25.960 --> 0:08:29.000 you get the Pyramids and all the church building in Europe. 0:08:29.080 --> 0:08:32.240 The Cathedrals of England, this sort of thing. You could 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.320 do that if there's a power above you that you 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:41.559 fear or that you want to praise too for your protection. 0:08:42.240 --> 0:08:44.880 So but that doesn't happen much anymore. That leaves war 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:47.200 and economics. We went to the Moon because we were 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.880 at war. We choose not to remember it that way, 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.280 but that was the driver. And but we remember it 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:57.880 as though was where Americans. Of course we're going to explore. 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.840 Without the war driver would have never had. And and 0:09:00.920 --> 0:09:04.199 so that's the blunt realization of it. So to say, 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:07.439 let's become a space faring nation if it is, if 0:09:07.480 --> 0:09:11.360 it is, if the arguments are absent these other drivers, 0:09:12.559 --> 0:09:14.880 then you would have to assert that we are a 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:18.800 fundamentally different kind of civilization from all civilizations that have 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.920 ever preceded us. So I found that really fascinating. Um, 0:09:21.960 --> 0:09:25.320 you know, the idea that that that for modern society, 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:27.720 the big driver of this kind of advancement and what 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:30.679 we would need for like really hardcore investment in space 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:34.520 exploration is you know, the economic incentive or the war 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.160 incentative incentive. So on one level, I could not but 0:09:38.240 --> 0:09:41.920 think what we need to do is fake an interplanetary war, 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.240 like we need to roll out the war the World's 0:09:44.240 --> 0:09:46.760 hoax for real, and then people will be like, oh 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:50.200 my goodness, there's an alien race that wants to destroy us. Yes, 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.680 let's invest in space because there's a lot at stake here. 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.679 This is war, this is serious, this is what humans 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:58.520 are all about. Um, you know, let's let's work on 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:00.520 those battle crisis. Yeah. But then of a sudden you're 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:04.760 rolling out study and their space lawyers. Right, it's gets 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:08.040 a little bit more complicated. Space lawyers always complicate things. Um. 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.440 The other thing that did really fascinating. We've we've talked 0:10:10.440 --> 0:10:14.400 before about the topic of religion and space, and I've 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.120 I've blogged about it, and I actually got an accompanying 0:10:17.120 --> 0:10:20.280 blog post for this podcast for Discovery Space where I 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:21.960 talked about this a little. But the idea like what 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.960 if you had to create a religion for space now, 0:10:25.120 --> 0:10:28.320 And for some people, that's completely ridiculous because because science, 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:31.920 science is king and space exploration, there's no room for religion. Right, 0:10:31.960 --> 0:10:35.240 That's that's certainly that's a valid argument. But the other 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.320 side of the argument that I'm not I'm not necessarily 0:10:37.400 --> 0:10:38.680 saying like this is what we need to do. But 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.200 it's interesting sort of thought process is what if we 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.720 created a religion to make to make space, to support 0:10:44.760 --> 0:10:47.439 space exploration. Like I was talking to a friend of mine, 0:10:47.480 --> 0:10:50.440 this guy Andy, who's a game designer and he works 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:53.560 with space themes sort of space opera projects, and so 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:55.960 he was arguing that, like, all right, in space exploration, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.240 space travel, you know, the details are important. Everything's gonna 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:01.199 be ironed and you've gotta be disciplined. So you need 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:03.720 some sort of like really dogmatic religion that's going to 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.760 inspire that you know, you have to this is your duty, 0:11:07.040 --> 0:11:11.800 this is you know, you've got to play another Yeah. Well, 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.199 I mean I think on a certain level, any kind 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.000 of space expression is gonna be fear based, because if 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.640 you messed up, you're gonna die. But he was talking 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:20.800 about like just you know, really regimented kind of like 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:24.520 uber you know, Catholic kind of a space religion or 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:29.800 something very heavily ritualized. Right, And we've talked and we've 0:11:29.800 --> 0:11:32.160 talked about in the past. You know, people who have 0:11:32.200 --> 0:11:35.400 been inspired by, say, um, the Church of Jeice Christ, 0:11:35.440 --> 0:11:37.439 the Latter day Saints, and that is the fact that 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:40.600 that faith has space already factored into it, and therefore 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:43.319 for some individuals that has been a driving force for them. So, 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:46.439 but what Dr Tyson said made me think about, all right, well, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.760 what if what if you created this religion to where 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:53.559 where another huge part of it is by exploring outer 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.720 space you are pleasing some some deity or even just 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.920 some sort of divine king, and maybe you're everlasting soul 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.400 is somehow tied up in the bargain. I know it's 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:05.839 it's probably a little bit disenterying. I just get I 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:07.480 like to get a little bit more simplistic with it, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.280 and I just say, let's just just call it second 0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.560 is um and we all wear the turtle. Yeah, we 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.720 all wear turtlenecks, and we all support space exploration. Yeah 0:12:15.920 --> 0:12:18.680 and uh, and we can ritualize it as much as possible, 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.320 you know, and to to make it feel like, hey, 0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:23.959 this is let's do it for for Carl. Second, so 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:25.600 like the pretest sets down with you and says, look, 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:29.120 you want to make your heavenly sake and happy, don't you? Well, 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:32.720 exactly really need to apply yourself more in space exploration 0:12:33.000 --> 0:12:35.400 and get a new turtleneck because that one is a 0:12:35.440 --> 0:12:38.680 little dingy. Yeah. Um, So I don't know, it is 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:40.800 it is. Uh. What I thought was interesting about what 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.160 Tyson had to say is that he really is stripping 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.719 away the reasons underneath why we do what we do, right, Yeah, 0:12:46.760 --> 0:12:49.720 I mean that's the really the driving point here in 0:12:49.720 --> 0:12:52.400 the argument is that the reason we built the pyramids 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.040 these other great acts because the thing is, like humans, 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.920 we know what humans can do, but we got to 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.360 have some sort of motivation to do them. Yeah, and 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:01.920 you know us like build a pyramid, Well, what are 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:03.280 you gonna do to make me do it? Or you 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:04.839 can you know, maybe you're gonna crack a whip or 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:07.120 tell me about um, you know, the afterlife or some 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.640 of the divine being that have to be other motivators there, 0:13:09.720 --> 0:13:11.520 And he's saying that the only ones left to us 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.480 for the most part are war in economics because gods 0:13:15.480 --> 0:13:18.040 and god kings are not really as as much of 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:21.199 a driving force and technological advancement these days. Well, and 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:23.200 I just thought it was very refreshing that he said 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:25.320 that to say, you know, okay, it is part of 0:13:25.480 --> 0:13:28.160 space exploration as part of our national identity, but let's 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:31.040 just be real about it. This was driven by war, 0:13:31.640 --> 0:13:34.960 Its driven by economics. Um. And this is following what 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:38.319 he said about frontiers and like the basic adventure, you know, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.120 spirit of man. So he's not denying that, but he's 0:13:40.120 --> 0:13:42.320 saying saying that that's this is all well and good, 0:13:42.320 --> 0:13:45.240 but you have to face the realities of actually seeing 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:48.679 these big projects take off, you know, past that threshold, right, 0:13:48.720 --> 0:13:50.760 and I that's the rub, right, because we can't help 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.480 but to create as a species. And yet we have 0:13:53.600 --> 0:13:57.560 these drivers that, um, that that are behind why we 0:13:57.600 --> 0:14:00.840 do what we do. Yeah, So my plan end is 0:14:01.120 --> 0:14:04.959 we convince everyone that the devil lives on another planet 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:08.000 and it's going to invade Earth unless we team up 0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:12.000 with a space god and start getting serious about exploring 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:15.719 the cosmos. You have got some elaborate plans. Might we 0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:18.720 gotta we we gotta push that throughout Congress. Um. But 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.360 before we continue with the interview, we need to take 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:23.040 a quick break, so we'll be right back right after this. 0:14:25.480 --> 0:14:28.479 This podcast is brought to you by Intel, the sponsors 0:14:28.480 --> 0:14:32.960 of Tomorrow and the Discovery Channel. At Intel, we believe 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:36.960 curiosity is the spark which drives innovation. Join us at 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:40.840 curiosity dot com and explore the answers to life's questions 0:14:43.880 --> 0:14:46.160 and we're back. Let's get back to the interview. Um, 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:47.720 what was it? What was the next question that we 0:14:47.760 --> 0:14:50.120 had for Dr Tyson. Well, it was a sort of 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:55.360 a m an idea about neuroscience and how uh this 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.760 this question about whether or not it's stolen any thunder 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:01.320 from space exploration. In this sense, the people are so 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:04.000 sort of taken with exploring the universe of their minds 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.520 that perhaps they have moved away from space exploration. And 0:15:07.840 --> 0:15:10.680 in case in point, our podcast stuff to blow your mind. 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:12.560 But I haven't done account but I have a feeling 0:15:12.560 --> 0:15:16.360 we've done more uh episodes about the mind than we 0:15:16.400 --> 0:15:18.840 have about space. Yeah, and certainly, I mean there's a 0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.320 lot of stuff in the media in neurosciences as a 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.920 field that is just completely exploding. So this was the 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:27.200 question that we pose to Dr Tyson. And there's no 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.160 comparison with regard to the funding that goes to space 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:34.600 exploration versus the funding that goes to neuroscience. In other words, 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:39.120 whatever thunder one might imagine, it has taken away the 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:44.920 relative funding, which is the most that's the clearest measure 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:50.000 of of of thundered one might have. Uh, it's small. 0:15:50.720 --> 0:15:55.520 Neuroscience is pennies compared with space exploration. And by the way, 0:15:55.560 --> 0:15:58.200 if you look at the total space budget of the world, 0:15:58.960 --> 0:16:05.360 all money spent on space related products and services, the 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.680 NASA budget is a tiny fraction of that total money. 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:12.359 If you add up all the total value of GPS 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:18.000 and weather satellites and communications satellite, direct TV, satellite radio, 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:21.360 add it all up, what we actually spend on NASA 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:26.120 is small. So so as an enterprise, space is huge, 0:16:26.720 --> 0:16:29.440 and it's sort of permanently huge because it's worked its 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:32.920 way into our daily lives in ways that some people 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.560 today take for granted. People who are saying, we don't 0:16:36.560 --> 0:16:39.520 need the space exploration. But you know, it's as it's 0:16:39.680 --> 0:16:43.200 has been stereotyped. The person first person to say we 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.360 don't need space exploration, and what do I need that for. 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.160 I've got the weather channel, you know, and of course 0:16:49.080 --> 0:16:52.280 were it gets all its images of the hurricane en 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.320 route to your town, you know. So so there's a 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.920 lot that we all take for granted, and on some 0:16:59.040 --> 0:17:01.680 level that's a good thing. It means it's a fundamental 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:05.240 part of our culture. But the funding to extend it 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.000 and to promote it then need the case needs to 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:10.960 be made because people haven't thought about why they do it. 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.720 They just do it. The human brain seems to only 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:15.800 go from A to B. Doesn't know how to go 0:17:15.880 --> 0:17:18.199 from A to B then to see and then you 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:20.480 get to D, and the D is the goal that 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:24.760 you want those extra steps to fund a space program 0:17:24.840 --> 0:17:29.000 to have that be a carrot for the smartest kids 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:33.000 and the educational pipeline who then want to become biologists 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:38.200 and chemists and aerospace engineers and astrophysicists and geologists. Because 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.040 if you're a geologists, I say, well, you can study 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.600 this rock face on Earth, where this rock face on Mars. 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:47.320 I'm gonna get the best geologists because they're gonna want 0:17:47.320 --> 0:17:49.399 to do it on Mars. I can say you can 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:51.840 study this slime mold here on Earth where you can 0:17:51.920 --> 0:17:54.600 look for life that's never been found before in the 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.680 aquifers of Mars. I'm going to get the best biologists. 0:17:58.160 --> 0:18:01.840 Space has a way of attracting the best people because 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:04.200 the best people want to work on the best problems, 0:18:04.440 --> 0:18:07.800 with the hardest problems, with the most interesting problems. And 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:10.720 once that happens, you care. Then you create the culture 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.199 of science as something that a nation is engaged in 0:18:15.720 --> 0:18:18.200 that gets the respect of politicians because they're the ones 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:21.080 voting to fund it, and then it works its way 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:25.240 into the moods and attitudes of teachers, of students, of parents, 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:27.720 and science is no longer something to fear and something 0:18:27.720 --> 0:18:32.920 to embrace. Once you embrace this, then the culture creates 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:39.479 stem field people who in their creativity, invent tomorrow, and 0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:44.480 that creativity births entire new economies for the twenty one century, 0:18:44.760 --> 0:18:47.879 and that's what will keep a nation at the forefront. 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:51.680 This whole job's package that they're trying to promote now 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:55.000 it's it's it shouldn't be about jobs. It should be 0:18:55.080 --> 0:19:00.959 about frontier industries so that America can lead the world 0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:03.480 as it once did. Oh, by the way, those industries 0:19:03.560 --> 0:19:07.280 need jobs. It's not Let's get you back to work 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.600 and then all will be fine. We can get you 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.600 back and we can have a country of a hundred 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:14.480 percent working people, but we'll be dancing to the tune 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.879 of everyone else who's actually innovating. And the innovators are 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:24.240 the people who are the engineers, the scientists, the technologists 0:19:25.200 --> 0:19:29.159 who see what is to come combined with what they know, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:33.280 and they invent something new to make tomorrow. Come. Once 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:38.760 this happens, then the country's economy will boom. And this 0:19:39.680 --> 0:19:44.040 connection between space exploration and a booming economy, like I said, 0:19:44.200 --> 0:19:47.000 takes longer than an elevator ride. And it's not a 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.000 direct connection, it's indirect. And I think therein is the challenge. 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.920 So again from Dr Tyson, there's another sobering look at 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:59.640 what it takes to push science through the political system. Yea, 0:20:00.000 --> 0:20:03.119 And I believe that um Dr Tyson was at the 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:08.000 World Science Festivals Stephen weinberg keynote address. Yeah you were there, Yeah, 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:09.439 I was there, and I'm pretty sure he was in 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.520 the audience, And so we asked him about what Weinberg 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.080 argued that we need a new particle accelerator because it's 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.680 necessary for society to better understand the laws of nature. 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:24.080 That's that's what Weinberg says, in particular dark matter, because 0:20:24.320 --> 0:20:26.199 you know five six of the universe is made up 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.479 of it, and why not know more about that? Right? Right? 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:30.800 And and just to clarify, because we haven't really talked 0:20:30.920 --> 0:20:33.919 as much about particle colliders in this podcast, but this 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:36.840 is where you take particles and you speed them around 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.280 this giant facility, smashed them into each other. They and 0:20:40.320 --> 0:20:42.959 when they break apart, you can learn about what composes 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.919 them and therefore learn about the about what's happening with 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:50.520 matter at its smallest and briefest uh points right. And 0:20:50.560 --> 0:20:52.680 what Weinberg said is we we really need something that 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:55.600 is the more beefed up superconductor than than what we 0:20:55.600 --> 0:20:59.200 have right now and certain so, um so it led 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.520 us just to wonder about dark matter and how how 0:21:02.600 --> 0:21:06.320 we can get the general public interested in that, How 0:21:06.320 --> 0:21:08.879 could we relate to the general public that this is 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.480 actually important to look into. How can we make it 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:15.159 more personal? And um this is what Dr Tesson had 0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.000 to say. It won't trigger the funding, so I won't 0:21:18.000 --> 0:21:20.240 even I don't even go there. That's the delusion. The 0:21:20.320 --> 0:21:23.160 delusion is you just have to make the science case 0:21:23.359 --> 0:21:28.000 and everyone will want to do it. I the history 0:21:28.040 --> 0:21:31.720 of human behavior does not bear that out. And so 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:35.159 the reason why particle physics was funded for a hundred 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.479 years in America was because the physicists who were engaged 0:21:38.520 --> 0:21:42.520 in that activity built bombs. It was the physics of 0:21:42.600 --> 0:21:46.680 our nuclear arsenal in the Cold War. So the illusion 0:21:47.400 --> 0:21:52.160 was that America was interested in physics research because we 0:21:52.200 --> 0:21:56.080 wanted to be on the frontier of discovery. The actual 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.800 reason was that these are the people who won the 0:21:58.840 --> 0:22:03.040 Second World War for us and are creating the power 0:22:03.520 --> 0:22:07.560 that the geopolitics needed throughout the Cold War. So there 0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:11.120 is no there is no argument. That's my point. There's 0:22:11.160 --> 0:22:13.879 no argument unless you can say, or at the other 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:15.880 end of this, we've got a new weapon and we're 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:18.240 at war with somebody against whom we can use this weapon, 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:23.560 we get funded overnight. The original super collider was canceled. 0:22:23.640 --> 0:22:25.879