WEBVTT - Wicked Words - Bryan Burrough: Stephenville

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<v Speaker 1>This story contains adult content and language, along with references

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<v Speaker 1>to sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>It starts praying that God take care of us, fix

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<v Speaker 2>this for me, and after a period of time, God

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<v Speaker 2>has it fixed it. So you said, well, if God's

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<v Speaker 2>not going to help me, I'm going to reach out

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<v Speaker 2>to say.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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<v Speaker 1>in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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<v Speaker 1>true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked and the co host

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<v Speaker 1>of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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<v Speaker 1>around the world interviewing people for the show and they

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<v Speaker 1>are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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<v Speaker 1>crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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<v Speaker 1>stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold More

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<v Speaker 1>Wicked presents Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make,

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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<v Speaker 1>behind the stories. Best Selling author and my buddy Brian

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<v Speaker 1>Burrow returns to his small town, Texas roots in the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast by Texas Monthly called Stephenville. This season, he explores

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<v Speaker 1>a murder case that went cold for nearly two decades

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<v Speaker 1>to tell this amazing story. Brian is armed with the

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<v Speaker 1>newly discovered diary of the killer himself. A trigger warning

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<v Speaker 1>here we do talk about a serial rapist and killer.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's dip into how you came across with the story,

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<v Speaker 1>and then we can move from there.

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<v Speaker 2>I had all but retired from any type of magazine journalism.

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<v Speaker 2>The economics of it aren't as compelling as they used

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<v Speaker 2>to be. I'm sixty one and not looking for as

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<v Speaker 2>much work outside books as I used to be. But

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<v Speaker 2>I got an email from a TV producer on Forensic File.

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<v Speaker 2>We did a show on a cold case killing in Stephenville,

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<v Speaker 2>Texas a few years back, and the lead detective found

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<v Speaker 2>something new. Found that the bad guy left behind a

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<v Speaker 2>two hundred page autobiographical essay that for the first time,

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<v Speaker 2>told the story of fairly well known events from his

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<v Speaker 2>point of view. He had spent his entire life denying

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<v Speaker 2>it all, and this was a fairly run of the

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<v Speaker 2>mill bad guy who wrote kind of an extraordinary document

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<v Speaker 2>that traced the development of his internal angers, passions, sexual

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<v Speaker 2>proclivities from the age of eight through early teen, through

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<v Speaker 2>his twenties into adulthood, as well as dealing with the

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<v Speaker 2>stories of the crimes that he committed. So I thought, gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>we've got a very different take on the story.

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<v Speaker 1>So set the scene. Where are we when this story starts.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it starts with a murder, and that's kind of

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<v Speaker 2>the best way to introduce the cat characters. In July

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty seven, in Stephenville, Texas, which is southwest seventy

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<v Speaker 2>miles southwest of Fort Worth, supervisor at a sandpaper called

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<v Speaker 2>a man in town and says, your daughter has not

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<v Speaker 2>showed up for work two days in a row. And

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<v Speaker 2>his name was Joe Atkins. And Joe went on over

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<v Speaker 2>to his daughter's little white bungalow, a little rendered white

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<v Speaker 2>bungalow there in the Old Air area of Stephenville, walked

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<v Speaker 2>up to the front door, found at a jar, went

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<v Speaker 2>in and found his daughter, Susan Woods, naked on the

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<v Speaker 2>floor of the bathroom with her upper body plunged into

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<v Speaker 2>a tub full of black water.

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<v Speaker 1>How long had she been in the bathtub?

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<v Speaker 2>Two days? Last scene on Sunday night. They found on

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<v Speaker 2>a Tuesday night, Susan Woods in the summer of nineteen

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<v Speaker 2>eighty seven was a very quiet young woman, a factory

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<v Speaker 2>worker who had grown up in Stephenville. Quiet as a child,

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<v Speaker 2>didn't date close to her parents. Everybody said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>she was just the sweetest thing, just nice to everybody,

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<v Speaker 2>a little trusting, a little naive. Graduated from Stephenville High

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<v Speaker 2>with honors, and within a year or two, having at

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<v Speaker 2>that point going to work for a nursing home, she

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<v Speaker 2>met a young man, a newcomer to town named Michael Woods.

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<v Speaker 2>And Michael came from El Paso. This was the late seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, Susan was five to seven, long brown hair.

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<v Speaker 2>Michael was a little shorter, but very attractive, certainly to Susan.

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<v Speaker 2>And the most notable thing about Michael was at a

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<v Speaker 2>time when rural Texas was not only as conservative as

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<v Speaker 2>it may be today, but it was kind of pushing

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<v Speaker 2>back against the excesses of the sixties. Michael had long hair,

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<v Speaker 2>and he was a musician. He stood out in town Stephenville.

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<v Speaker 2>Keep in mind, is bills itself as the cowboy capital

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<v Speaker 2>of the world. It is a town then and now

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<v Speaker 2>where you know cowboy hats, ffa jackets, close crop hair

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<v Speaker 2>are most common, and Michael Woods stood out. Michael was

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<v Speaker 2>actually just visiting, kind of hanging around unemployed as he

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<v Speaker 2>tended to be most of the time, wanted to be

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<v Speaker 2>a position, but nobody in Stevenville wanted to hear rock

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<v Speaker 2>and roll. Let me tell you, they might listen to

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<v Speaker 2>Johnny Cash back in the days. And Michael stayed to

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<v Speaker 2>be with Susan, and he hated. He had a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of an attitude because, especially when he grew a beard,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he got picked on. People would call him

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<v Speaker 2>fur face and stuff. And Michael did not look like

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<v Speaker 2>anybody else in town. He wore a leather jacket, engineer boots,

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<v Speaker 2>and he drove Harley. Michael was also not one to

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<v Speaker 2>suffer any type of abuse. If you said something insulting

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<v Speaker 2>to Michael, he would pop in the mouth. He was

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<v Speaker 2>repeatedly in fights, rarely in a job. He worked at

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<v Speaker 2>a sonic, he worked in a cornfield, I mean all

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<v Speaker 2>sorts of jobs that just never really took. And after

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<v Speaker 2>about a year or two of this, around nineteen eighty,

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<v Speaker 2>he said, I can't take it anymore. I've got a

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<v Speaker 2>job offered from an uncle. I think he ran an

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<v Speaker 2>auto repara shot back in l Passo. Come with me

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<v Speaker 2>to l Passol, was trying to make a go up there.

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<v Speaker 2>Susan had never been outside Stephenville, but she thought it

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<v Speaker 2>sounded like a grand adventure, right, So they go to Steveville,

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<v Speaker 2>and for whatever reason, the job fell through, and within

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<v Speaker 2>a matter of weeks they are living in what Susan

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<v Speaker 2>famously said in wonder her letters home on bacon bit sandwiches.

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<v Speaker 2>They're not quite living out of the car, as one

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<v Speaker 2>report had it, but Michael said they were living in

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<v Speaker 2>an apartment with no furniture. When they couldn't make that happen,

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<v Speaker 2>they moved in with his mother and that didn't go

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<v Speaker 2>real well either, and they ended up coming back. So

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<v Speaker 2>by let's say early eighty one, they're back in Stephenville.

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<v Speaker 2>Michael continues to act out. I've got police reports of

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<v Speaker 2>fights he got into. He was not happy there. He

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<v Speaker 2>had family in Indianapolis, brother, and at least once, and

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<v Speaker 2>it sounds like twice, he moved up to Indianapolis and

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<v Speaker 2>she came with him. And then Susan was just never

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<v Speaker 2>happy away from Stephenville for whatever reason, maybe being far

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<v Speaker 2>away from family or just smalltown Texas. It has it's

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<v Speaker 2>a lure. She went up to Indianapolis, stayed with him

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<v Speaker 2>a time or two, and came back and Michael says,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, during their about roughly five years of marriage,

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<v Speaker 2>he was gone about half the time. By the summer

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<v Speaker 2>of eighty six, they had moved into this little white

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<v Speaker 2>bungalow by downtown and they were trying to make a

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<v Speaker 2>last go of it. As Michael tells that, the final

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<v Speaker 2>straw was he had had some success flipping cars, buying

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<v Speaker 2>a used car, fixing it up and reselling it. He

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<v Speaker 2>wanted to do this with Holmes. Apparently his brother was

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<v Speaker 2>doing that in Napolis, and he thought he could do

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<v Speaker 2>it too. Unfortunately, Michael had no money, and Susan, who

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<v Speaker 2>is by now working in sandpaper factory, didn't really want

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<v Speaker 2>to invest her money in Michael's new venture. Michael accused

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<v Speaker 2>her of emasculating him and taking away his only livelihood,

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<v Speaker 2>and so he left. There was a series of letters

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<v Speaker 2>between them. It was heartbreaking because they were not angry

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<v Speaker 2>at each other. They loved each other. They both said

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<v Speaker 2>they want to be with each other, but she couldn't

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<v Speaker 2>live outside at Stephenville and Michael couldn't make it work

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<v Speaker 2>in Stephenville. He came back one last time in February

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<v Speaker 2>of eighty seven, and this would be now four months

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<v Speaker 2>before her murder, and it didn't take and he didn't stay.

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<v Speaker 2>There's a letter in the DA's files in which one

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<v Speaker 2>of her co workers said, basically, he gave her an ultimatum,

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<v Speaker 2>me or Texas. She chose Texas.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you get a sense that Michael was physically abusive

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<v Speaker 1>emotionally abusive?

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<v Speaker 2>I talked extensively with Susan's three closest friend, her best girlfriend,

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<v Speaker 2>the girlfriend's husband, and another young woman. Who were the

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<v Speaker 2>three people who went through all this with him, And

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<v Speaker 2>they said no, Michael was always kind to her. Did

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<v Speaker 2>they have arguments, yes, but no, nothing unpleasant until the end,

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<v Speaker 2>until February eighty seven. In februaryy seven, when Michael came

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<v Speaker 2>back for their final attempt at or Approchemont, he left.

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<v Speaker 2>He took a bunch of her things, and most important

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<v Speaker 2>thing was he took their yellow Mustang. And so for

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<v Speaker 2>the next four months after he left, she worked six

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<v Speaker 2>days a week to trying to raise money to get

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<v Speaker 2>a new car. She was having to have friends take

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<v Speaker 2>her to work. But when Michael left, he left behind

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<v Speaker 2>two things. He left behind a series of folded up

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<v Speaker 2>little paper notes that he put in cabinets. He put

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<v Speaker 2>in shirt pockets you put in her underwear drawer, and

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<v Speaker 2>they were just all about what a sea word she was,

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<v Speaker 2>what an awful person, how this was all her fault.

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<v Speaker 2>Her parents hated him from the word go. Michael tells

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<v Speaker 2>these stories of the father threatening with a gun and

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<v Speaker 2>things like this. But even worse, Michael left behind a

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<v Speaker 2>thirty minute cassette tape in which he excoriated Susan in

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<v Speaker 2>the most unpleasant way for breaking up the marriage, for

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<v Speaker 2>not allowing him to be a man. And at one

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<v Speaker 2>point Susan was so shaken she called in the three friends, Roy,

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<v Speaker 2>Cindy her best friend, and Gloria. It said, I've got

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<v Speaker 2>to go to work. Can y'all listen to this and

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<v Speaker 2>just tell me if I'm crazy because that this scares me?

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<v Speaker 2>And they were all deeply shaken. And by that night

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<v Speaker 2>Roy Hayes wonderful guys still alive, came over, nailed all

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<v Speaker 2>her windows shut, gave her a gun, and Cindy for

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<v Speaker 2>about the next month slept on her couch. Look. Nobody

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<v Speaker 2>knew Michael to be violent. The fights that he would

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<v Speaker 2>get in always seemed to be some guy would insult

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<v Speaker 2>in me. It was like Michael was out picking fights

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<v Speaker 2>with people. So despite the fist fights he'd gotten, and

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<v Speaker 2>nobody really thought of him as a violent guy. But

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<v Speaker 2>the fact, does they anyone to find out if he

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<v Speaker 2>had that in it?

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<v Speaker 1>Was there contact between the two of them between February

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<v Speaker 1>when this escalates in July when her father finds her dead.

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<v Speaker 2>No physical contact. We believed that there might have been

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<v Speaker 2>a phone call or too. I think Michael dimly remembers

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<v Speaker 2>a phone call in the letter, but nothing really of significance.

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<v Speaker 2>Once Michael left, she went to a divorce attorney and

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<v Speaker 2>filed the horse papers and so between Februar of eighty

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<v Speaker 2>seven when he left, over the next three or four months,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a pretty dark time for Susan. Initially, she's

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<v Speaker 2>working six days a week, trying to get a car.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, this is just basic stuff. She's thirty years old,

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<v Speaker 2>she's never really lived on her own. She either lived

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<v Speaker 2>with her parents or then with Michael, off and on,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a tough time for her. She doesn't really

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<v Speaker 2>have time to socialize. And then after about out three months,

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<v Speaker 2>say in the maytime frame, things begin to light. She

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<v Speaker 2>realizes her life is probably not at risk from Michael.

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<v Speaker 2>He hasn't showed up to Killer. She goes out one

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<v Speaker 2>night with a group of work friends to the nearby

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<v Speaker 2>town of Granbury. Stephenville was dry at the time and

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<v Speaker 2>flirted with a bartender, and he started coming over a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of three Friday nights, watched TV on the couch.

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<v Speaker 2>On the fourth one they had sex, and the next

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<v Speaker 2>day or so, after a day, Susan calls up another

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<v Speaker 2>girlfriend and said, oh my god, you've got to come

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<v Speaker 2>down here. She was hysterical, and she came down and

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<v Speaker 2>Susan had dark marks all over her neck. JC apparently

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<v Speaker 2>had gotten a little carried away and given her a

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<v Speaker 2>series of hickeys. And it's a measure of Susan's modesty

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<v Speaker 2>and Stephenville's modesty. She was paralyzed with fear of going

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<v Speaker 2>out in town and having people see this and think

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<v Speaker 2>she was that type of girl. By the end of May,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, she was able to get a new car.

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<v Speaker 2>Roy and Cindy, who are now married all these years later,

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five years later, noticed that she was brightening a little.

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<v Speaker 2>There came a night in late July when they said, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>we're going We're taking one of Cindy's young cousins over

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<v Speaker 2>to a carnival in a nearby town called Hiko. Why

0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:13.320
<v Speaker 2>don't you come on with us, it'd be good for

0:12:13.360 --> 0:12:15.200
<v Speaker 2>you to get out, And so she went on over

0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.360
<v Speaker 2>there and they didn't have much fun for whatever reason.

0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:20.680
<v Speaker 2>So they came on back and Roy said, tay, what,

0:12:20.800 --> 0:12:22.760
<v Speaker 2>I'll make it better. Let's all go to Dairy Queen.

0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:26.240
<v Speaker 2>So they went to Dairy Queen and Susan, who was demure,

0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.280
<v Speaker 2>careful about her physical appearance, had a hot fudge Sunday

0:12:30.400 --> 0:12:33.280
<v Speaker 2>and then she did something Cindy said she'd never seen

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.079
<v Speaker 2>or done in her entire life, and these kids had

0:12:35.080 --> 0:12:38.680
<v Speaker 2>been best friends from like twelve thirteen. She had another

0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:43.280
<v Speaker 2>hot fish Sunday and smiled, and Cindy doesn't remember the

0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.880
<v Speaker 2>exact words, but it was very clear that she was

0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.720
<v Speaker 2>turning a corner. She could see a path forward for

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.520
<v Speaker 2>herself and her life, and four nights later she was

0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:53.000
<v Speaker 2>found dead.

0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:58.559
<v Speaker 1>So her father finds her submerged partially in this bathtub.

0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:02.240
<v Speaker 1>She's been sexually assaulted. It's summer of eighty seven. He

0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.319
<v Speaker 1>calls the police. I have to assume is that the

0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:05.280
<v Speaker 1>first thing that happens.

0:13:05.440 --> 0:13:07.520
<v Speaker 2>He steps into the living room, calls him on the

0:13:07.520 --> 0:13:10.160
<v Speaker 2>house phone and then steps out into the yard which

0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:13.720
<v Speaker 2>is pitch dark, and pretty much the whole Stephenville Police

0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:16.839
<v Speaker 2>force shows up. You know. There was clearly pretty nasty

0:13:16.840 --> 0:13:19.480
<v Speaker 2>struggle in the bedroom. The bedroom was topsy turvy. The

0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:22.720
<v Speaker 2>mattress was off the box springs and the pillows were

0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.680
<v Speaker 2>strown everywhere, and the beding was strown everywhere, and there

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.800
<v Speaker 2>was an electrical cord that it was laying across the

0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.600
<v Speaker 2>bed with the plug in on the floor. When they

0:13:30.840 --> 0:13:33.679
<v Speaker 2>squatted down the side her and lifted her head, they

0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.720
<v Speaker 2>saw a red ligature mark. He was suspected that perhaps

0:13:36.760 --> 0:13:39.440
<v Speaker 2>the cord had been used on her. As they studied

0:13:39.440 --> 0:13:42.320
<v Speaker 2>the crime scene, the one thing that stood out was

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.480
<v Speaker 2>there's no sign of forced entry in a house with

0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.520
<v Speaker 2>a you know, everything nailed shut. It looked from all

0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:52.360
<v Speaker 2>angles as if Susan had invited her murder into the house.

0:13:52.600 --> 0:13:56.199
<v Speaker 2>And on the living room table there were six cigarette

0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.680
<v Speaker 2>buts in an ash tray and an open cann of coke,

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:04.559
<v Speaker 2>suggesting that perhaps she had sat and had some cigarettes

0:14:04.640 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 2>with whoever it was. But that was it. You know.

0:14:08.040 --> 0:14:10.439
<v Speaker 2>They canvassed the neighborhood. They went up and down the street,

0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.400
<v Speaker 2>nobody had seen anything strange. It was Sunday night. It

0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:15.520
<v Speaker 2>was a quiet Sunday night in Stephenville, Texas.

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.760
<v Speaker 1>So what happens next? The investigators, we would assume, would

0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:22.520
<v Speaker 1>look at her inner circle first and find out she

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:23.440
<v Speaker 1>has an ex husband.

0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.320
<v Speaker 2>Funny thing happened the next morning. There was a lieutenant

0:14:26.400 --> 0:14:28.600
<v Speaker 2>on the force who announced to the gathering the next

0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:30.520
<v Speaker 2>morning in the police department that nobody else needed to

0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:32.720
<v Speaker 2>work the case. He was going to take it on himself.

0:14:33.000 --> 0:14:35.320
<v Speaker 2>And I talked with an officer who was in the

0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.240
<v Speaker 2>room that day, I said, what was that about? He said,

0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:38.840
<v Speaker 2>the guy just wanted to be a hero. He knew

0:14:38.840 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 2>we don't have a lot of cases like that, and

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.120
<v Speaker 2>he was looking to move up. This guy's name was

0:14:43.200 --> 0:14:46.000
<v Speaker 2>Ken Maltby, and I'm sure he was otherwise a terribly

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:50.760
<v Speaker 2>effective policeman. Early on, from all indications, Lieutenant Maltby focused

0:14:50.800 --> 0:14:54.320
<v Speaker 2>on Michael Woods. The Atkins family, Susan's maiden name was Atkins.

0:14:54.720 --> 0:14:57.520
<v Speaker 2>Was absolutely I mean, it was just obvious Michael Woods

0:14:57.520 --> 0:14:59.360
<v Speaker 2>has done this. I mean she was living with the

0:15:00.240 --> 0:15:04.080
<v Speaker 2>guy in town, right obviously. Hello. He somehow came back

0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:08.760
<v Speaker 2>and Maltby and a Texas Ranger went up to Indianapolis.

0:15:08.800 --> 0:15:11.880
<v Speaker 2>Within forty eight hours of the killing. They had reached

0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.160
<v Speaker 2>out to Indianapolis PD to interview him, and they had

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:19.440
<v Speaker 2>there had been some interviewing, but he denied everything and

0:15:19.840 --> 0:15:22.800
<v Speaker 2>didn't seem to want to be cooperative. They confronted him

0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:24.760
<v Speaker 2>in his front yard and he declined to go back

0:15:24.800 --> 0:15:28.440
<v Speaker 2>to Texas, and so Lieutenant Wontby and the Ranger came

0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:33.440
<v Speaker 2>back to Texas and about a month later, Lieutenant Maltby

0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 2>was transferred onto a narcotic squad to supervisor narcotic squad.

0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:40.080
<v Speaker 2>And you know, by the first week of October, and

0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:41.920
<v Speaker 2>this is two and a half months after the killing,

0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:45.360
<v Speaker 2>it's orphaned. There's nobody assigned to take this over. So

0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 2>what happened is one of the original officers, the guy

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.520
<v Speaker 2>who canvassed the bedroom, Donny Hensley, said well, I'll take

0:15:51.560 --> 0:15:53.440
<v Speaker 2>it on in a spare time, and he went to

0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:55.960
<v Speaker 2>look for Maltby's notes or to debrief, and he couldn't

0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.640
<v Speaker 2>get Maltby to talk with him, and he couldn't find

0:15:57.640 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 2>any notes, and Donny said, I don't know what's tell you.

0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:03.080
<v Speaker 2>I'd start over from scratch, and he pretty much did.

0:16:03.320 --> 0:16:05.280
<v Speaker 2>For the next couple of months, you know. He does

0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:09.080
<v Speaker 2>his best to widen the focus of the investigation. He

0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:12.520
<v Speaker 2>discovers the bartender in Granberry. By the way, I didn't

0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.840
<v Speaker 2>mention they've got prince in the bathroom and on the

0:16:14.840 --> 0:16:18.320
<v Speaker 2>coke can. He goes and fingerprints and gives light of

0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:22.280
<v Speaker 2>detector tests to the bartender. He passes. He then brings

0:16:22.280 --> 0:16:24.960
<v Speaker 2>in Roy Hayes, the best girlfriend's husband, the guy who

0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.640
<v Speaker 2>nailed the windows shut. And Roy was a little iffy

0:16:29.400 --> 0:16:32.480
<v Speaker 2>in the eyes of Stephenville because he played dungeons and dragon,

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.040
<v Speaker 2>which back in those days carried the faint whiff of

0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:40.280
<v Speaker 2>the Satanic. Now Roy's a big old boy, nice kid.

0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:43.160
<v Speaker 2>Roy says, okay, I'll take your light detector test. Sure,

0:16:43.280 --> 0:16:44.920
<v Speaker 2>So they take him down to Waco to a ranger

0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.360
<v Speaker 2>station for a light detector test. Does that for about

0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:50.320
<v Speaker 2>an hour, walks out and Donnie says, you did it.

0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.040
<v Speaker 2>You did not pass, And Roy's like, I did not

0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:55.920
<v Speaker 2>I did anything to do this. He said, These machines

0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>do not make a mistake. Roy, I know you did it.

0:16:58.520 --> 0:17:00.640
<v Speaker 2>This is just the way it is. About that moment,

0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 2>the door opens behind him and the ranger who took

0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:07.160
<v Speaker 2>the test comes out. And says, congratulations, mister Hayes, you passed.

0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.439
<v Speaker 2>To this day, nobody knows what the mix up was.

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:13.280
<v Speaker 2>At that point, Donny Hensley doesn't have a bunch of suspects,

0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 2>and you know, everybody in town is saying Roy Hayes,

0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:20.600
<v Speaker 2>what he nuts? Everybody knows. Everybody knows it's Michael Woods.

0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.840
<v Speaker 2>And so Donnie rededicates himself to hounding Michael Woods, who

0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.879
<v Speaker 2>remains out of state outside in Indianapolis. He shows his

0:17:28.920 --> 0:17:32.520
<v Speaker 2>picture picture of the yellow Mustang to every service station

0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.359
<v Speaker 2>in the county that rings no belts with anyone. Finally

0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.280
<v Speaker 2>he realizes he's got to take the case to Indianapolis,

0:17:38.280 --> 0:17:41.400
<v Speaker 2>so he goes up there and the Indianapolis PD gives

0:17:41.480 --> 0:17:44.199
<v Speaker 2>him a fancy surveillance van that actually has one of

0:17:44.240 --> 0:17:47.199
<v Speaker 2>these like a submarine periscope out the top, so you

0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:49.040
<v Speaker 2>can sit in the back of this van. And after

0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.119
<v Speaker 2>a week or two of surveilling, they see Michael and

0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.520
<v Speaker 2>his brother set out a bunch of stuff for garage sale,

0:17:54.840 --> 0:17:57.160
<v Speaker 2>and they see some items that they believe they can

0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:01.600
<v Speaker 2>argue we're stolen from Susan. A figure, a fur coat,

0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:03.800
<v Speaker 2>this type of thing. So they swoop in the next

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:06.640
<v Speaker 2>day with an arrest warm and arrest them all because

0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.320
<v Speaker 2>they found a roach, a marijuana roach, right you know.

0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:11.480
<v Speaker 2>It led to no charges, but it gotten the one

0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.960
<v Speaker 2>thing that Donny didn't have, which was Michael's fingerprints. They

0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.879
<v Speaker 2>needed Michael's fingerprints. Now to this day, Michael will tell

0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:20.399
<v Speaker 2>you he volunteered to give him the Prince and anything

0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:23.320
<v Speaker 2>else they wanted on the proviso that it'd be done in.

0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.160
<v Speaker 2>In the end, he wasn't going. He didn't trust Texas Comms,

0:18:26.400 --> 0:18:28.840
<v Speaker 2>was not going back to rural Texas where an entire

0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.120
<v Speaker 2>town was convinced he was the murder. He just wasn't going.

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.560
<v Speaker 2>For whatever reason. The Texas police wouldn't go up there

0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:36.160
<v Speaker 2>and do it with him, so they felt they had

0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:38.560
<v Speaker 2>to go up and get the fingerprints, which they did.

0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:42.000
<v Speaker 2>They came back. Donnie on the flight back from Indianapolis

0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.120
<v Speaker 2>with the fingerprints, he is filling out the extradition papers

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>to bring Michael back. He's so sure that the Prince

0:18:48.359 --> 0:18:50.960
<v Speaker 2>will match. Now of course I've given away they don't match,

0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:54.359
<v Speaker 2>and Don's like, there's no way Michael Woods did this.

0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.720
<v Speaker 2>How is this happening? Pretty much by the summer of

0:18:57.760 --> 0:19:01.639
<v Speaker 2>eighty eight, by the time Donnie came back from Indianapolis

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:04.040
<v Speaker 2>with those prints. The investigation was over.

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:06.919
<v Speaker 1>What happens next? This case goes cold.

0:19:07.160 --> 0:19:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Well, actually, what did happen was the family sued Michael Woods.

0:19:10.600 --> 0:19:13.480
<v Speaker 2>He was the beneficiary on Susan's life inschurch. He was

0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.240
<v Speaker 2>doing something like eleven thousand dollars. I think they sued him,

0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:19.040
<v Speaker 2>and Michael would not go back. A judge hit him

0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:22.840
<v Speaker 2>with a judgment finding hum responsible for his death and

0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:25.760
<v Speaker 2>saying that he had to pay get this seven hundred

0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.040
<v Speaker 2>thousand dollars anyway, It was never paid, obviously in part

0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 2>because Michael didn't come back anywhere near where they could

0:19:31.240 --> 0:19:34.480
<v Speaker 2>serve him, and then the case was slowly forgotten, not

0:19:34.600 --> 0:19:37.399
<v Speaker 2>by the family, not by our friends Roy and Cindy,

0:19:37.400 --> 0:19:40.240
<v Speaker 2>but by the rest of the town. Stephen Villain's important

0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:43.000
<v Speaker 2>note just in terms of context, it is not your

0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.560
<v Speaker 2>classic conservative small town. It's actually a college town in

0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:49.840
<v Speaker 2>the middle of farm country. Charlton State is there, and

0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:52.760
<v Speaker 2>during those years following the murder, during the nineties, it

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:57.320
<v Speaker 2>saw an influx of people, but nothing happened in Susan's case.

0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:01.160
<v Speaker 2>Years went by, and finally in two thousand and five,

0:20:01.800 --> 0:20:04.520
<v Speaker 2>eighteen years later, Michael Woods kind of came to a

0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:08.680
<v Speaker 2>breaking point. Michael never got over this. He wanted to

0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.880
<v Speaker 2>be a musician, and he tried to His lawyer says,

0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:12.800
<v Speaker 2>you can't leave this town. They'll get you. They'll get

0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.359
<v Speaker 2>you if you leave Indianapolis. So he and his brother

0:20:15.480 --> 0:20:18.920
<v Speaker 2>start doing Skinnered and Charlie Daniels around town for thirty

0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.080
<v Speaker 2>five dollars a pop. But even that became hard after

0:20:21.119 --> 0:20:24.760
<v Speaker 2>the Indianapolis newspaper ran two articles saying that he was

0:20:24.760 --> 0:20:28.879
<v Speaker 2>the focus of murder investigation from Stephenville Well. Michael tried

0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:31.560
<v Speaker 2>to install home alarms. He tried to do this. He

0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:33.960
<v Speaker 2>tried to do that. He didn't keep a lot of jobs.

0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.320
<v Speaker 2>What he was good at was drinking and taking every

0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:41.160
<v Speaker 2>drug that anybody ever handed it. And he slowly went

0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:44.600
<v Speaker 2>to a spiral. He tried therapy that didn't work. Finally,

0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:47.320
<v Speaker 2>he says, by the early two thousands, after about fourteen

0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:49.200
<v Speaker 2>or fifteen years, he tried to kill himself. He said

0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:53.400
<v Speaker 2>he took three handfuls of tranquilizers and in a rare

0:20:53.440 --> 0:20:56.000
<v Speaker 2>bit of levity from Michael's side of the story, he said,

0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:57.960
<v Speaker 2>all it did was put me to sleep for three days,

0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:00.760
<v Speaker 2>and I woke up still depressed. In two thousand and five,

0:21:00.800 --> 0:21:03.760
<v Speaker 2>he was playing a birthday party, a friend's birthday party

0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:07.160
<v Speaker 2>with his brother, and afterwards it was just about the

0:21:07.200 --> 0:21:10.600
<v Speaker 2>anniversary of Susan's death, and he walked out in the backyard.

0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:13.280
<v Speaker 2>He was crying, and the host, who was just an acquaintance,

0:21:13.320 --> 0:21:15.760
<v Speaker 2>walked out and said, Michael, what's wrong. And he explained

0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:18.159
<v Speaker 2>that it was the anniversary of his wife's death and

0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:19.800
<v Speaker 2>he can't go back to a graver and thin because

0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:22.040
<v Speaker 2>the whole town thinks he did it. And this woman

0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:25.320
<v Speaker 2>whose name was Barbara Gary, who has the briefest of

0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:28.640
<v Speaker 2>cameos in this, says, well, that's just awful. And she

0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:30.600
<v Speaker 2>she goes in the next morning and gets on her

0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.520
<v Speaker 2>computer and she fires off an email to the Stephenville

0:21:34.560 --> 0:21:37.760
<v Speaker 2>Police saying, I really wish you'd figure out this for

0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:41.680
<v Speaker 2>cocta case, because this poor man is falling, falling apart

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>because you have it solved and found the actual killer.

0:21:44.880 --> 0:21:48.240
<v Speaker 2>What had happened by then was a new sergeant named

0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:51.119
<v Speaker 2>Don Miller had taken over looking at a handful of

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:54.360
<v Speaker 2>cold cases that they had in Stephenville, and he knew

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>that the fingerprints didn't matage Michael had never been told.

0:21:57.920 --> 0:22:00.000
<v Speaker 2>He never understood what happened. Once they took his fingerprints.

0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Don looked at that and said, this God didn't do it.

0:22:02.960 --> 0:22:05.080
<v Speaker 2>And I bet you if I'm ever going to solve it,

0:22:05.280 --> 0:22:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I need him to help me solve it. Don Miller

0:22:07.880 --> 0:22:09.439
<v Speaker 2>calls and Michael said, I don't want to talk to you.

0:22:09.560 --> 0:22:12.280
<v Speaker 2>Don says, I understand that, but I'm your only hope

0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:16.480
<v Speaker 2>of ever ending this. And so Michael says, okay, what

0:22:16.520 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 2>do you want? He said, I need to come up

0:22:17.880 --> 0:22:20.000
<v Speaker 2>and there's this new thing called DNA, and I need

0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:21.840
<v Speaker 2>to come up and get some DNA from you. And

0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.440
<v Speaker 2>if you didn't do it, Michael, I can clear you.

0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.040
<v Speaker 2>You'll be able to get on with your life.

0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.639
<v Speaker 1>What had they collected sperm samples? I'm assuming saliva.

0:22:29.840 --> 0:22:32.000
<v Speaker 2>There was DNA off the coke can.

0:22:31.880 --> 0:22:34.480
<v Speaker 1>And cigarettes, right, Yeah, so they had done a good job.

0:22:34.840 --> 0:22:36.960
<v Speaker 2>Yes, that's one thing you can point. They did a

0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.679
<v Speaker 2>good job. And Don said, well, I want to come

0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.160
<v Speaker 2>up there, and Michael said yes, and then Michael said no.

0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:44.560
<v Speaker 2>Don had already gotten plane tickets, so he and his

0:22:44.560 --> 0:22:47.520
<v Speaker 2>buddy just went on. Anyway, they get up there and

0:22:47.560 --> 0:22:49.960
<v Speaker 2>it's like January or February. You know, it's twenty five

0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:52.879
<v Speaker 2>degrees in Indianapolis, and they're wearing these texts lightweight Texas

0:22:52.880 --> 0:22:55.360
<v Speaker 2>sports jackets. They're freezing. When they finally found their way

0:22:55.400 --> 0:22:57.520
<v Speaker 2>to a fairly modest home where Michael and his brother

0:22:57.720 --> 0:23:00.159
<v Speaker 2>were living, and they get up there on the on

0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 2>the front porch and knock knock, and Michael actually opens

0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.399
<v Speaker 2>the door, and Don says who he is? And Michael's like,

0:23:05.520 --> 0:23:06.800
<v Speaker 2>I told you I Michael talked to you. Why are

0:23:06.800 --> 0:23:09.399
<v Speaker 2>you here? Don just keeps talking. It's just the load

0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.280
<v Speaker 2>of just Michael. We need your DNA. This is your

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.400
<v Speaker 2>only hopelah blah blah blah blah bah blah. And after

0:23:13.440 --> 0:23:15.920
<v Speaker 2>I don't know ten fifteen minutes its Michael's like, okay, fine,

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.000
<v Speaker 2>take the DNA and get off the caddian porch. And

0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:21.800
<v Speaker 2>Dona turns to his partner and says, okay, let's do

0:23:21.840 --> 0:23:24.399
<v Speaker 2>the DNA. The problem was neither one of them had

0:23:24.400 --> 0:23:27.520
<v Speaker 2>ever used DNA kit before, and the partner says, I

0:23:27.560 --> 0:23:29.720
<v Speaker 2>don't really know how to do this, and Don says,

0:23:29.840 --> 0:23:33.080
<v Speaker 2>are their instructions. So they read the instructions and took

0:23:33.080 --> 0:23:36.199
<v Speaker 2>a cheap swab send it down to Ranger station in Waco,

0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:39.160
<v Speaker 2>and it came back clear the DNA and the fingerprints

0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:42.520
<v Speaker 2>didn't match. DNA didn't match, and Don was able to

0:23:42.520 --> 0:23:45.359
<v Speaker 2>call Michael and say, Michael, and you're cleared, and Michael

0:23:45.400 --> 0:24:02.240
<v Speaker 2>began to cry and hung up. Great news for Michael, right,

0:24:02.720 --> 0:24:05.240
<v Speaker 2>Not so great news for Donald Miller. He now has

0:24:05.280 --> 0:24:08.159
<v Speaker 2>no suspects. However, what he has that they didn't have

0:24:08.200 --> 0:24:11.280
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty seven is the FBI now has a

0:24:11.280 --> 0:24:14.679
<v Speaker 2>fingerprint database. Don wanted to go to take their fingerprint

0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:17.879
<v Speaker 2>card to Washington. His chief said, uh, uh, I'm not

0:24:17.880 --> 0:24:19.720
<v Speaker 2>paying for you to go to Washington. Then he found

0:24:19.760 --> 0:24:22.919
<v Speaker 2>out that the Rangers had access to it, so he

0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:25.919
<v Speaker 2>just took the fingerprints down to Austin and gave gave

0:24:25.960 --> 0:24:28.320
<v Speaker 2>him the original card and a few days later he

0:24:28.320 --> 0:24:29.720
<v Speaker 2>gets a call back and he says, you got to

0:24:29.720 --> 0:24:32.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, you got a penning pencil on. Don says, uh, sure.

0:24:32.640 --> 0:24:37.040
<v Speaker 2>The fingerprints come back to Joseph Scott Hatley. Don writes

0:24:37.040 --> 0:24:39.240
<v Speaker 2>his name down and Don asked the guy who's that

0:24:39.640 --> 0:24:42.399
<v Speaker 2>and the guy says, I don't know, but it's from

0:24:42.600 --> 0:24:46.480
<v Speaker 2>an arm robbery in Las Vegas, Nevada in nineteen eighty eight.

0:24:46.840 --> 0:24:50.040
<v Speaker 2>This is three states away. If this Joseph Scott Hatley

0:24:50.080 --> 0:24:54.200
<v Speaker 2>has any tide Stephenville. He calls the DA and says,

0:24:54.200 --> 0:24:57.280
<v Speaker 2>do we know a Joseph Scott Hatley? And the DA says,

0:24:57.480 --> 0:25:00.000
<v Speaker 2>you bet we do, and then Don says what he says,

0:25:00.119 --> 0:25:02.480
<v Speaker 2>great case. In eighty eight he went for a grand

0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:05.280
<v Speaker 2>jury and nobilly and he was long gone. No, we

0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:07.639
<v Speaker 2>didn't know who he was, but his mother and I

0:25:07.640 --> 0:25:10.280
<v Speaker 2>believe sister still lived in town. I wouldn't say a prominent,

0:25:10.280 --> 0:25:12.720
<v Speaker 2>but they are a well known Stephenville family. His late

0:25:12.800 --> 0:25:16.920
<v Speaker 2>father had owned several businesses, including a Texico station. Several

0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 2>of them had worked, including a sister had worked for

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.680
<v Speaker 2>the city. And so now Don realized I have a suspect.

0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:24.520
<v Speaker 1>What is nobil?

0:25:25.000 --> 0:25:27.600
<v Speaker 2>Nobil means that they took the case to a grand

0:25:27.680 --> 0:25:29.920
<v Speaker 2>jury and the grand jury declined to indict.

0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.159
<v Speaker 1>So what's the next step with Joseph Scott Hatley? What

0:25:33.280 --> 0:25:35.800
<v Speaker 1>do we know about what he's doing when this is

0:25:35.840 --> 0:25:36.480
<v Speaker 1>all happening.

0:25:36.800 --> 0:25:40.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, he was everybody considered him just a normal kid.

0:25:40.600 --> 0:25:42.879
<v Speaker 2>Beaver Cleaver born in nineteen sixty five, so it was

0:25:42.880 --> 0:25:44.400
<v Speaker 2>four years younger than me. I grew up a few

0:25:44.400 --> 0:25:48.560
<v Speaker 2>counties away was possessed of a burning anger incite him

0:25:48.600 --> 0:25:51.119
<v Speaker 2>that he was never able to explain. He says that

0:25:51.200 --> 0:25:53.040
<v Speaker 2>as early as the age of ten or eleven, he

0:25:53.160 --> 0:25:57.359
<v Speaker 2>was planning a school, a Columbine style school massacre. You know,

0:25:57.400 --> 0:25:59.960
<v Speaker 2>he developed thoughts of sexual and other types of vible.

0:26:00.359 --> 0:26:04.160
<v Speaker 2>What really changed for him was when he was twelve thirteen, fourteen,

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:06.760
<v Speaker 2>he discovered two things that kind of became the great

0:26:06.800 --> 0:26:10.119
<v Speaker 2>loves of his life. Beer, which soon became vodka. He

0:26:10.200 --> 0:26:12.920
<v Speaker 2>became the type of drinker that, at least on weekends

0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:15.600
<v Speaker 2>when he wasn't working, would start drinking vodka when he

0:26:15.640 --> 0:26:17.200
<v Speaker 2>woke up in the morning and would still be drinking

0:26:17.240 --> 0:26:20.320
<v Speaker 2>at night. In pornography. He had a stashup born in.

0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:23.359
<v Speaker 2>I talked to a couple of experts and who just said,

0:26:23.359 --> 0:26:27.720
<v Speaker 2>this is really really typical of somebody who acts out

0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:31.159
<v Speaker 2>sexual violence. You know, nobody really saw him as anything

0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:34.560
<v Speaker 2>other than a pretty normal kid. By senior year of

0:26:34.640 --> 0:26:37.320
<v Speaker 2>high school, Scott had lost some of his baby fit

0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:40.560
<v Speaker 2>at least learn how to talk to girls, and decided

0:26:40.560 --> 0:26:41.960
<v Speaker 2>for a career he was going to go for the

0:26:42.000 --> 0:26:45.760
<v Speaker 2>Air Force, a weapon specialist at basis around Texas. Then

0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:49.080
<v Speaker 2>upon a high school graduation, he goes off to an

0:26:49.119 --> 0:26:52.080
<v Speaker 2>Air Force training base of some type at Fort Lewis.

0:26:52.080 --> 0:26:54.720
<v Speaker 2>I think it is outside Denver, And what matters for

0:26:54.800 --> 0:26:56.919
<v Speaker 2>our story is that it's there that he meets his

0:26:57.080 --> 0:27:02.320
<v Speaker 2>first girl. She's a quiet, serious, dark haired young woman

0:27:02.560 --> 0:27:07.159
<v Speaker 2>that we never named. They both drank heavily, and Scott

0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:10.520
<v Speaker 2>said it was love at first sight. And they're very young,

0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:13.800
<v Speaker 2>they're very inexperienced, and on a whim they got married,

0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:17.080
<v Speaker 2>and their parents and their commanding officers were pretty horrified,

0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:20.800
<v Speaker 2>but they were married. She decides to join up full time.

0:27:21.400 --> 0:27:24.280
<v Speaker 2>He decides not to, but they agree he'll follow her.

0:27:24.280 --> 0:27:26.240
<v Speaker 2>So she gets assigned to the island of the Pacific

0:27:26.280 --> 0:27:29.000
<v Speaker 2>Ocean island of Guam, and so he follows her out

0:27:29.040 --> 0:27:31.760
<v Speaker 2>to Guam, and you know, they're apart full It's set

0:27:31.840 --> 0:27:36.120
<v Speaker 2>couple of months. The moment they reunited, he realized the

0:27:36.160 --> 0:27:39.919
<v Speaker 2>fire was, if not out, it was flickering. He says,

0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:42.680
<v Speaker 2>there was a story in her eyes I couldn't read.

0:27:43.080 --> 0:27:46.679
<v Speaker 2>He begins drinking even more heavily. The drinking turns to fights.

0:27:46.800 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 2>She starts going out by herself, and the turning point

0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:52.919
<v Speaker 2>comes one night when she came back after partying. She

0:27:53.000 --> 0:27:55.720
<v Speaker 2>came back alone, and he had very strong sense, based

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:58.359
<v Speaker 2>on his read of the situation, that she'd been unfaithful

0:27:58.480 --> 0:28:01.280
<v Speaker 2>and to him, it was as if his entire life

0:28:01.320 --> 0:28:04.959
<v Speaker 2>had exploded and she betrayed him. In his mind, he

0:28:05.000 --> 0:28:07.240
<v Speaker 2>had been raised very religious, the at least with the

0:28:07.240 --> 0:28:09.520
<v Speaker 2>type of family that debated scripture at the dinner table,

0:28:09.680 --> 0:28:12.440
<v Speaker 2>and so he starts praying that God take care of this,

0:28:12.640 --> 0:28:14.840
<v Speaker 2>fix this for me. And after a period of time,

0:28:15.040 --> 0:28:18.320
<v Speaker 2>God hasn't fixed it. So he said, well, if God's

0:28:18.359 --> 0:28:20.840
<v Speaker 2>not gonna help me, I'm going to reach out to Satan.

0:28:21.119 --> 0:28:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Problem was, she didn't exactly know how to reach out

0:28:23.359 --> 0:28:27.440
<v Speaker 2>to Satan. He remembers that from every movie he's ever seen,

0:28:27.480 --> 0:28:30.560
<v Speaker 2>it seems to always involve a lot of candles. So

0:28:30.600 --> 0:28:32.640
<v Speaker 2>he gets up every candle in the house and lights

0:28:32.680 --> 0:28:34.439
<v Speaker 2>them all over the living room one night while his

0:28:34.480 --> 0:28:37.560
<v Speaker 2>wife is out, and prays to Satan that he will

0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.880
<v Speaker 2>take his wife's life so that he will get her

0:28:41.200 --> 0:28:44.720
<v Speaker 2>life insurance policy and he can go back to Texas. Well,

0:28:44.720 --> 0:28:47.960
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't really much work. The praying to Satan seems

0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.040
<v Speaker 2>to be pretty much a one off thing. But I

0:28:50.080 --> 0:28:53.320
<v Speaker 2>will say that in the manifesto. It's something he loops

0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:57.000
<v Speaker 2>back to several times, wondering if the pact that he

0:28:57.080 --> 0:28:59.680
<v Speaker 2>offers satany if that explained the things that he did

0:29:00.120 --> 0:29:02.760
<v Speaker 2>or in life. So he calls his mom. His mom says,

0:29:02.800 --> 0:29:05.840
<v Speaker 2>come on home. He does. They divorce, and you know

0:29:06.080 --> 0:29:08.520
<v Speaker 2>barely what. A couple of years after leaving home, Scott

0:29:08.560 --> 0:29:11.920
<v Speaker 2>finds himself living with his parents, going back to work

0:29:11.960 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>for his dad, driving the back roads around Stephenville, brooding

0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:20.400
<v Speaker 2>in the brown pickup that his parents bought him for graduation,

0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:23.520
<v Speaker 2>listening to his eight tracks of Motley Crue with no

0:29:23.640 --> 0:29:26.120
<v Speaker 2>sense really of where he's going to go. The one

0:29:26.120 --> 0:29:28.239
<v Speaker 2>thing I can say he tried to do too. He

0:29:28.280 --> 0:29:30.600
<v Speaker 2>did two things that were kind of new. One he

0:29:30.640 --> 0:29:33.520
<v Speaker 2>started asking people he wanted to reinvent himself, obviously, so

0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:36.560
<v Speaker 2>he started asking people if they'd call him Joseph instead

0:29:36.560 --> 0:29:38.800
<v Speaker 2>of Scott. I don't think anybody actually did that. And

0:29:38.840 --> 0:29:41.320
<v Speaker 2>he invented what became his favorite drink, the thing that

0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:44.080
<v Speaker 2>he would drink every evening and pretty much all day.

0:29:44.320 --> 0:29:47.640
<v Speaker 2>He called it v syrup, and it was vodka, koffserup

0:29:47.840 --> 0:29:50.760
<v Speaker 2>and pepsi, which he put in a forty ounce foam

0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:53.080
<v Speaker 2>sonic cup, and if you're from Texas, we all know

0:29:53.160 --> 0:29:55.640
<v Speaker 2>sonic cups. And he would drink this morning, noon, or night.

0:29:56.240 --> 0:30:01.040
<v Speaker 2>About his only social outlet was at his sister, Regina's home.

0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:03.600
<v Speaker 2>She was married at a few years older. They'd always

0:30:03.640 --> 0:30:06.520
<v Speaker 2>been close. He would go over there and most nights,

0:30:06.560 --> 0:30:09.200
<v Speaker 2>certainly on the weekend, Regina would convene a group of

0:30:09.200 --> 0:30:12.320
<v Speaker 2>people around the round table in her kitchen. They started

0:30:12.360 --> 0:30:15.680
<v Speaker 2>calling themselves members of the round Table. And it was Roy,

0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:17.760
<v Speaker 2>and it was Cindy, and it was some other friends.

0:30:18.200 --> 0:30:20.080
<v Speaker 2>And they would sit there and drink and play cards,

0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:22.960
<v Speaker 2>because that's pretty much all there was to do in Stephenville, Texas,

0:30:23.040 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 2>nineteen eighty eight. And you know, they all saw that

0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:28.000
<v Speaker 2>he was drinking a lot, that he was in some distress,

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:29.480
<v Speaker 2>but they figured, you know, he'd grow out of it

0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:32.160
<v Speaker 2>once his divorce went through. And that is basically the

0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:35.480
<v Speaker 2>story of Scott Hatley until fateful night the middle of

0:30:35.560 --> 0:30:39.160
<v Speaker 2>July nineteen eighty eight, when a new face appears at

0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.600
<v Speaker 2>the round table in Regina's kitchen, and it's Susan Woods

0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.600
<v Speaker 2>who showed up for one night. And in his manifesto,

0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:48.560
<v Speaker 2>Scott Hatley says that they engaged in some drunken flirting

0:30:48.680 --> 0:30:50.840
<v Speaker 2>both ruins and they were like, that's just crazy. He

0:30:50.880 --> 0:30:53.400
<v Speaker 2>was hot, he was just drunk, but that was enough.

0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:57.600
<v Speaker 2>That was the hook, the flicker, the moment that ended

0:30:57.600 --> 0:31:00.000
<v Speaker 2>Susan Woods's life. About a week or ten days later,

0:31:00.280 --> 0:31:03.760
<v Speaker 2>no doubt, after a long night driving around in his

0:31:03.960 --> 0:31:07.720
<v Speaker 2>brown pickup drinking his v syrup, he shows up unannounced

0:31:07.880 --> 0:31:10.960
<v Speaker 2>on Sunday night at Susan's home and she lets him.

0:31:10.840 --> 0:31:14.520
<v Speaker 1>In what happens with Don Miller. Next he gets this

0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:19.480
<v Speaker 1>hit on the fingerprint database and Joseph Scott Hatlee is

0:31:19.720 --> 0:31:21.400
<v Speaker 1>just floating about right now.

0:31:21.560 --> 0:31:26.000
<v Speaker 2>Right after the murder, he raped a girl and after

0:31:26.040 --> 0:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>that he had flat down thinking that he was going

0:31:28.760 --> 0:31:30.840
<v Speaker 2>to be arrested for the rape, and he went to

0:31:30.880 --> 0:31:33.360
<v Speaker 2>Las Vegas and ended up robbing a shoe store and

0:31:34.040 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 2>they arrested him. He did about one hundred and twenty

0:31:35.840 --> 0:31:38.160
<v Speaker 2>days in a youth offender program. He kept thinking, well,

0:31:38.160 --> 0:31:39.960
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna come. Stephenville is gonna come in any moment

0:31:40.000 --> 0:31:41.480
<v Speaker 2>and rest me for the rape, and no doubt they're

0:31:41.520 --> 0:31:43.680
<v Speaker 2>going to now make the connection to the murder. They

0:31:43.760 --> 0:31:47.719
<v Speaker 2>never did. He came back to Stephenville and the paranoia.

0:31:48.000 --> 0:31:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Lived pretty close to the police station. He could see

0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:51.960
<v Speaker 2>him coming out at six am and six pm and

0:31:51.960 --> 0:31:53.640
<v Speaker 2>the cruisers. He just thought it was a matter of time.

0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:55.880
<v Speaker 2>So his older brother was a long distance truck driver,

0:31:56.480 --> 0:31:59.720
<v Speaker 2>and Scott moved to Nashville and became a truck driver.

0:32:00.000 --> 0:32:01.760
<v Speaker 2>Apparently he did that for about five years. Says he

0:32:01.800 --> 0:32:05.120
<v Speaker 2>was pretty good at it. Unfortunately, as some truck drivers do,

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:08.600
<v Speaker 2>he started taking amphetamines and ran into another truck. Lost

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:12.800
<v Speaker 2>that job, ended up as a supervisor in a grocery warehouse.

0:32:13.120 --> 0:32:15.000
<v Speaker 2>You know, he started to build a life. The years

0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:18.000
<v Speaker 2>went by since the murder. Five ten years, he married,

0:32:18.040 --> 0:32:22.000
<v Speaker 2>he had two kids, and around nearly two thousands, he

0:32:22.040 --> 0:32:25.200
<v Speaker 2>was doing well enough in his job that they offered

0:32:25.240 --> 0:32:28.200
<v Speaker 2>him a transfer to be a supervisor. Apparently this was

0:32:28.240 --> 0:32:31.920
<v Speaker 2>a promotion to a warehouse in round Rock, Texas, which

0:32:31.960 --> 0:32:35.680
<v Speaker 2>is a suburb north of Austin. By two thousand and six,

0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:41.360
<v Speaker 2>when Don matched up the fingerprints, he was a supervisor

0:32:41.360 --> 0:32:43.800
<v Speaker 2>down in round Rock. You know, he worked nights and

0:32:43.840 --> 0:32:45.600
<v Speaker 2>so and he slept days, and that's what he was

0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:47.440
<v Speaker 2>doing that day in June two thousand and six, when

0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:49.680
<v Speaker 2>Don Miller asked the round Rock police to bring him

0:32:49.720 --> 0:32:50.360
<v Speaker 2>in for questioning.

0:32:50.840 --> 0:32:53.000
<v Speaker 1>Is this an open and shutcase for Don Miller?

0:32:53.120 --> 0:32:53.280
<v Speaker 2>Yep?

0:32:53.480 --> 0:32:54.240
<v Speaker 1>Does he confess?

0:32:54.720 --> 0:32:58.160
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, initially Don didn't know what to make

0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:02.520
<v Speaker 2>of this about Joe's Scott Hatley, and he got there

0:33:02.680 --> 0:33:06.040
<v Speaker 2>the rape file from the DA and he's going through it.

0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:08.040
<v Speaker 2>And I've looked at this report. It's like a four

0:33:08.120 --> 0:33:10.760
<v Speaker 2>paid single space report and down deep in the middle

0:33:10.760 --> 0:33:12.560
<v Speaker 2>of it the girl who he was raping and it

0:33:12.720 --> 0:33:15.240
<v Speaker 2>lasted sixty eight hours in a local park out on

0:33:15.240 --> 0:33:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the edge of town. She ran from him. At one

0:33:17.640 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 2>point he chased her and fell on top of her

0:33:20.640 --> 0:33:23.000
<v Speaker 2>and he says, you mind me or I'll kill you.

0:33:23.400 --> 0:33:25.880
<v Speaker 2>And I've done it before. And when Don saw that,

0:33:25.920 --> 0:33:28.719
<v Speaker 2>he realized that's the guy. So when Don shows up

0:33:28.720 --> 0:33:30.840
<v Speaker 2>and round rock, he has no doubt that Joseph Scott

0:33:30.840 --> 0:33:33.840
<v Speaker 2>Hatley is the guy. He gets DNA, he talks to him.

0:33:34.560 --> 0:33:37.360
<v Speaker 2>Hatlee is very blase, Oh, my dad's sex Withether, I

0:33:37.360 --> 0:33:39.080
<v Speaker 2>don't know. And as Don told me, if that's a

0:33:39.120 --> 0:33:41.840
<v Speaker 2>red flag right there, if you're accused of murder, you're

0:33:41.840 --> 0:33:44.120
<v Speaker 2>denying it up and down. You're not you know, you're

0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:47.440
<v Speaker 2>not being blase about it. So Hatlee went home last

0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:50.440
<v Speaker 2>that night. As he writes in his manifesto, he knew

0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:53.200
<v Speaker 2>what was going to happen the next day, and this

0:33:53.400 --> 0:33:55.040
<v Speaker 2>was his last time to make a run for it.

0:33:55.360 --> 0:33:57.600
<v Speaker 2>He says, you know, was I stupid for going back

0:33:57.640 --> 0:34:00.840
<v Speaker 2>in the next day? No, I was tired. He went

0:34:00.920 --> 0:34:02.720
<v Speaker 2>back in the next day. There was a lot more

0:34:02.800 --> 0:34:04.600
<v Speaker 2>questioning in that night, and when they let him go,

0:34:04.680 --> 0:34:07.440
<v Speaker 2>he was out in an eye hoop with his family

0:34:07.480 --> 0:34:11.719
<v Speaker 2>of four. They'd stepped into parking lot and everybody else

0:34:11.719 --> 0:34:13.640
<v Speaker 2>got into a van and he stood there and lit

0:34:13.680 --> 0:34:15.520
<v Speaker 2>a cigar And when he let the scar of the

0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:17.520
<v Speaker 2>the round Rock cops came out and they rested him

0:34:17.520 --> 0:34:20.480
<v Speaker 2>on domestic abuse case for his wife. But while he

0:34:20.560 --> 0:34:23.120
<v Speaker 2>was being held on that, Don filed on him for

0:34:23.160 --> 0:34:25.759
<v Speaker 2>the murder. Brought him back to Stephenville, and you know,

0:34:25.840 --> 0:34:27.840
<v Speaker 2>it was at that moment that the town kind of

0:34:27.840 --> 0:34:30.759
<v Speaker 2>had to come to grips with what had happened. You know,

0:34:30.800 --> 0:34:32.960
<v Speaker 2>there was a different town that it had been. But

0:34:33.000 --> 0:34:35.680
<v Speaker 2>you know, when Don sat down with people like Susan's

0:34:35.719 --> 0:34:38.759
<v Speaker 2>father and his friends, you know, they just didn't want

0:34:38.760 --> 0:34:40.680
<v Speaker 2>to believe it. They're like, well, you're just wrong. It's

0:34:40.680 --> 0:34:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Michael Woods. Why haven't you gotten Michael Woods. Well, it

0:34:42.880 --> 0:34:46.279
<v Speaker 2>doesn't match. It's that Joseph Scott Halley. We don't know Joseph. Well,

0:34:46.320 --> 0:34:48.360
<v Speaker 2>it's Sydney Hollmark's cousin wall He's a good boy. He

0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:51.799
<v Speaker 2>didn't do it. But in the end there was as

0:34:51.800 --> 0:34:54.360
<v Speaker 2>we were saying in the article, there was no dramatic

0:34:54.360 --> 0:34:57.919
<v Speaker 2>purple walk. There's no tiary confessions. He cut a deal

0:34:58.680 --> 0:35:01.000
<v Speaker 2>for thirty years. Could have been longer, but Susan's family

0:35:01.040 --> 0:35:02.200
<v Speaker 2>didn't want the attention to try.

0:35:02.480 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 1>How old was he when all this happened In two

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:04.920
<v Speaker 1>thousand and six.

0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:07.760
<v Speaker 2>When he was arrested, he was forty, went off to Huntsville,

0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:09.960
<v Speaker 2>came down with bladder cancer, which went into a mission.

0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:13.080
<v Speaker 2>They let him out after I want to say, eleven years. What. Yeah,

0:35:13.200 --> 0:35:15.360
<v Speaker 2>he came out and went to Halfway House in Midland.

0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:18.520
<v Speaker 2>He was serfacing trucks at the beginning of the pandemic.

0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:20.759
<v Speaker 2>He was laid off and he went to live in

0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:24.400
<v Speaker 2>an RV by his daughter outside Abilene, and the cancer

0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:28.400
<v Speaker 2>came back and he died and a fellow bought the

0:35:28.520 --> 0:35:31.040
<v Speaker 2>RV where he died, and as he was going through

0:35:31.080 --> 0:35:33.640
<v Speaker 2>it found all these pictures of Don and Susan, and

0:35:33.680 --> 0:35:35.439
<v Speaker 2>he found the manifesto and he gave it to Don,

0:35:36.120 --> 0:35:38.600
<v Speaker 2>and Don ultimately got it to me. You know, this

0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:41.760
<v Speaker 2>was not a news story. It had been on forensic files,

0:35:42.400 --> 0:35:45.920
<v Speaker 2>but the manifesto. Having the manifesto, I I mean, I

0:35:45.920 --> 0:35:48.440
<v Speaker 2>could actually now tell the full story. It only took

0:35:48.480 --> 0:35:50.600
<v Speaker 2>me about three months to do it. I mean, it's

0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 2>a fairly small cast of characters, maybe eight people. And

0:35:53.840 --> 0:35:56.680
<v Speaker 2>after I turned it into Texas Monthly, after a month

0:35:56.760 --> 0:35:59.280
<v Speaker 2>or two after that, we started making it into a podcast.

0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:04.200
<v Speaker 1>Do you believe everything in that manifesto? Do you think

0:36:04.239 --> 0:36:08.720
<v Speaker 1>that this was really Joseph Scott Hatlee on a page

0:36:09.320 --> 0:36:09.719
<v Speaker 1>for you?

0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:13.560
<v Speaker 2>I actually kind of believe he was being honest with himself.

0:36:14.080 --> 0:36:16.600
<v Speaker 2>What I have a hard time believing is that a

0:36:16.640 --> 0:36:19.239
<v Speaker 2>lot of the things that he was making excuses. You know,

0:36:19.280 --> 0:36:22.600
<v Speaker 2>he was an unhappy kid. Maybe his mom was mean

0:36:22.640 --> 0:36:25.239
<v Speaker 2>to him a time or two, and so suddenly he

0:36:25.280 --> 0:36:29.399
<v Speaker 2>blames her for an unhappy childhood, and nobody saw any

0:36:29.440 --> 0:36:32.000
<v Speaker 2>of that. I did talk to one expert that said,

0:36:32.000 --> 0:36:34.160
<v Speaker 2>the facts of it don't matter. What matters what he thought,

0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:37.200
<v Speaker 2>what he believed. So many people who do things like

0:36:37.239 --> 0:36:40.480
<v Speaker 2>this are reacting to some type of childhood powerlessness, and

0:36:40.520 --> 0:36:43.640
<v Speaker 2>for whatever reason, he clearly felt that I believe the booze.

0:36:43.640 --> 0:36:46.879
<v Speaker 2>I believe, I believe the porn, I believe the stuff

0:36:46.920 --> 0:36:49.080
<v Speaker 2>about the marriage, and the said yeah, I believe. I

0:36:49.080 --> 0:36:51.600
<v Speaker 2>believe most of this. I have to say. Running this

0:36:51.719 --> 0:36:54.520
<v Speaker 2>behind all the people who were closest to him in life,

0:36:54.600 --> 0:36:58.080
<v Speaker 2>you know, there was nothing to argue with factually. Now,

0:36:58.320 --> 0:37:01.600
<v Speaker 2>how honest is he being about his internal landscape? That

0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:03.720
<v Speaker 2>is for a reader or in this case, a listener

0:37:03.760 --> 0:37:06.600
<v Speaker 2>to decide. But let's say we understood sixty or seventy

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:09.480
<v Speaker 2>percent of the facts before his manifesto. I think with

0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:11.680
<v Speaker 2>the manifesto you get up to about ninety eight percent

0:37:11.719 --> 0:37:15.080
<v Speaker 2>of the facts. It completed what was already a compelling

0:37:15.120 --> 0:37:15.680
<v Speaker 2>story for me.

0:37:16.040 --> 0:37:19.759
<v Speaker 1>Did Joe Atkins and the Atkins family finally accept that

0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:24.160
<v Speaker 1>Joseph Scott Hatley was the killer and not Michael Woods,

0:37:24.320 --> 0:37:25.440
<v Speaker 1>the jerk ex husband.

0:37:26.000 --> 0:37:29.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't know they've passed, but I'm told they reluctantly

0:37:29.840 --> 0:37:33.680
<v Speaker 2>had to. Nobody ever came back and apologized to Michael Woods.

0:37:33.920 --> 0:37:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Has he turned out to be okay? Since this has happened, ish.

0:37:38.080 --> 0:37:40.360
<v Speaker 2>I've reported stuff around the World for The Wall Street Journal,

0:37:40.360 --> 0:37:43.399
<v Speaker 2>for Randy Fair. I've met my share of people who've

0:37:43.400 --> 0:37:46.200
<v Speaker 2>been in pow camps and abuse and torture, and you know,

0:37:46.239 --> 0:37:48.719
<v Speaker 2>there is that sense when you're sitting in front of

0:37:48.719 --> 0:37:51.279
<v Speaker 2>someone cave that someone's been through a trauma. There was

0:37:51.320 --> 0:37:53.080
<v Speaker 2>a sense when Michael that he'd been through a trauma.

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:56.080
<v Speaker 2>This was a guy who had a rough life, and

0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:58.520
<v Speaker 2>so I was I wondered, how lucid is this guy

0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:01.120
<v Speaker 2>going to be? And he was one hundred percent. He'd

0:38:01.160 --> 0:38:02.040
<v Speaker 2>given them a lot of thought.

0:38:02.640 --> 0:38:04.960
<v Speaker 1>You and I come from the same world of print.

0:38:05.440 --> 0:38:07.680
<v Speaker 1>You write these stories and you have all these words

0:38:07.680 --> 0:38:10.239
<v Speaker 1>where you're describing the victim, you're describing the killer, you're

0:38:10.280 --> 0:38:14.320
<v Speaker 1>describing emotions. You're trying to get that across to the reader.

0:38:15.120 --> 0:38:18.280
<v Speaker 1>And now we're in this audio format where you don't

0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:20.960
<v Speaker 1>have to do as much explaining. You can just hear it.

0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:23.120
<v Speaker 1>You can hear the laughter and the joy, you can

0:38:23.160 --> 0:38:26.399
<v Speaker 1>hear the sorrow and someone's voices. It's very, I think

0:38:26.560 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 1>liberating in a lot of ways.

0:38:28.400 --> 0:38:31.880
<v Speaker 2>It is there's no substitute for the immediacy of hearing

0:38:31.920 --> 0:38:35.080
<v Speaker 2>that person's voice in your ear. And I got very,

0:38:35.200 --> 0:38:38.120
<v Speaker 2>very lucky, Kate. I got very, very lucky. You know.

0:38:38.280 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 1>On this show and all the shows I do, we

0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:42.960
<v Speaker 1>talk a lot about the importance of focusing in on

0:38:43.040 --> 0:38:45.080
<v Speaker 1>the victim, and I know that you have been able

0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:47.560
<v Speaker 1>to do both. Who do we meet in the podcast?

0:38:47.760 --> 0:38:51.400
<v Speaker 1>Who can illuminate Susan's character? Is it Roy and Cindy?

0:38:51.640 --> 0:38:54.800
<v Speaker 2>Roy and Sindy. You're great because in their telling of

0:38:55.239 --> 0:38:59.279
<v Speaker 2>Susan's life, it's not defined by what happened at the end.

0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:01.759
<v Speaker 2>They prefer to remember the young woman who brought a

0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.480
<v Speaker 2>smile on their face and their laughter, and the joy

0:39:05.520 --> 0:39:08.520
<v Speaker 2>that they have of sharing with you and bringing her

0:39:08.560 --> 0:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>back to life for people who would never know her

0:39:11.600 --> 0:39:14.160
<v Speaker 2>is so infectious. And the producer, at one point, the

0:39:14.200 --> 0:39:16.719
<v Speaker 2>wonderful producer, Brian stanfordson, are you at all concerned that

0:39:16.880 --> 0:39:19.879
<v Speaker 2>we're telling this fairly dark story and these people are

0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:23.960
<v Speaker 2>in hysterics laughing about, you know, sneaking beer. I said, no,

0:39:24.320 --> 0:39:28.279
<v Speaker 2>this can't be dirge and funereal. We must allow that.

0:39:29.000 --> 0:39:32.000
<v Speaker 2>So I think they do the best job of illuminating

0:39:32.040 --> 0:39:34.600
<v Speaker 2>the character of Susan. And then Michael, he would tell

0:39:34.600 --> 0:39:36.759
<v Speaker 2>you probably that she was the only one we hear her.

0:39:36.680 --> 0:39:50.520
<v Speaker 3>Love If you love historical true crime stories, check out

0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:53.640
<v Speaker 3>the audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All

0:39:53.680 --> 0:39:56.839
<v Speaker 3>That Is Wicked and American Sherlock. This has been an

0:39:56.880 --> 0:40:00.879
<v Speaker 3>exactly right production. Our senior producer is a Lexi Amirosi.

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:05.720
<v Speaker 3>Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This episode was mixed

0:40:05.760 --> 0:40:09.640
<v Speaker 3>by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer. Artwork by

0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:14.160
<v Speaker 3>Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen Kilgarriff and

0:40:14.280 --> 0:40:18.360
<v Speaker 3>Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at

0:40:18.440 --> 0:40:21.920
<v Speaker 3>tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More. And

0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:23.960
<v Speaker 3>if you know of a historical crime that could use

0:40:24.000 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 3>some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email

0:40:27.160 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 3>us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take

0:40:31.560 --> 0:40:34.760
<v Speaker 3>your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked Words