1 00:00:03,000 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: Welcome to stot to Blow Your Mind, production of by 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,480 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 4 00:00:17,280 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: today is going to be the first and a couple 5 00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: of episodes that we wanted to do on the subject 6 00:00:21,360 --> 00:00:26,319 Speaker 1: of invertebrate emotions. And strangely enough, I got interested in 7 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,520 Speaker 1: this subject the other day after I was reading a poem, 8 00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: not a scientific paper. I was reading a poem by 9 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,919 Speaker 1: the American modernist poet Marianne Moore, who I like a lot. 10 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:38,559 Speaker 1: She She writes a lot about like fish and you know, 11 00:00:38,840 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: marine organisms. She lived from eight seven to nineteen seventy two. 12 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,360 Speaker 1: And uh, if it's okay with you, Robert, I wanted 13 00:00:45,360 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: to start off this episode just by reading this poem 14 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: that I encountered the other day. Okay. It is called 15 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:56,959 Speaker 1: the paper Nautilus for authorities whose hopes are shaped by mercenaries, writers, 16 00:00:57,000 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: and trapped by tea time, fame and by commuters comfort. 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: It's not for these. The paper Nautilus constructs her thin 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: glass shell, giving her perishable souvenir of hope, a dull 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:13,040 Speaker 1: white outside and smooth edged inner surface. Glossy is the sea, 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: the watchful maker of it, guards it day and night. 21 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,600 Speaker 1: She scarcely eats until her eggs are hatched, buried eight 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: fold in her eight arms, for she is in a 23 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: sense of devil fish. Her glass ram's horn, cradled freight, 24 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: is hid but not crushed, as hercules bitten by a 25 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,360 Speaker 1: crab loyal to the hydra, was hindered to succeed. The 26 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 1: intensively watched eggs coming from the shell free it when 27 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 1: they are freed, leaving its wasp nest flaws of white 28 00:01:43,080 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: on white and close laid ionic kite enfolds, like the 29 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:50,720 Speaker 1: lines in the mane of a parthenon horse, round which 30 00:01:50,760 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: the arms had wound themselves, as if they knew. Love 31 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: is the only fortress strong enough to trust to. Oh 32 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: that's nice. I like that last art, especially me too. 33 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: I mean, I love the way it moves from um this, 34 00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:09,399 Speaker 1: uh this direct, almost clinical description of the actual biology 35 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: of the paper nautilus and how it builds its shell 36 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 1: and all that, and goes from that to these classical illusions, 37 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:18,280 Speaker 1: and then ultimately ends on this powerfully emotional note that 38 00:02:18,320 --> 00:02:21,160 Speaker 1: kind of gives me a shiver. Uh So, the late 39 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 1: American poet Anthony Hate, writing about More, said that one 40 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:26,960 Speaker 1: of the things he liked most about her poems was 41 00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: that they had quote a capacity for pure praise that 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: has absolutely biblical awe in it, and I think you 43 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: kind of see that here. I like that quality a 44 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 1: lot too. It captures in language some of the overwhelming, 45 00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: almost religious kind of power I feel when looking at 46 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: some animals, especially animals that live in the ocean. But 47 00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: also the poem really just has a very worthy subject. 48 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:52,639 Speaker 1: The paper nautilus, also known as the argonaut, is a 49 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,880 Speaker 1: remarkable species, and the shell that has talked about in 50 00:02:56,919 --> 00:03:00,280 Speaker 1: the poem, the egg case, is a genuinely gorgeous under 51 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:04,799 Speaker 1: of evolution. Yeah, this is quite a remarkable critter. So 52 00:03:05,280 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: the Argonaut, Uh, first, let's just talk about the name. 53 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: This is of course a reference to Greek mythology, and 54 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: we we recently talked about this on our other show Invention, 55 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: the myth of Jason and the Argonauts, Right, Yeah, because 56 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:21,880 Speaker 1: the argonaut just means sailors of the Argo, the Argo 57 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: being the ship built by Argus and the ship upon 58 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: which Jason sails in his quest to find the Golden Fleece, 59 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: which itself was a sacred pelt of a winged ram. 60 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: But the argonaut we're talking about here is again the 61 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: paper nautilus, a member of the genus Argonata. So they're 62 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: octopods cephalopods, and there as many as fifty three species 63 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: that have been described. They have this delicate calcite shell, 64 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: hence the nickname, and these shells were once thought to 65 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: be pilfered like the shells of a hermit crab. There 66 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: was a question of where did they acquire these things? Well, 67 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: they must have they must have stolen them. Uh, they 68 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: must be using them, right, And they wouldn't be the 69 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: only octopus that finds a shell or some kind of 70 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 1: you know, a coconut or something and picks it up 71 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:06,920 Speaker 1: and uses it, right, Uh and uh. And this was 72 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 1: also another contributing factor to this interpretation is the fact 73 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: that the the argonaut is not physically attached to the shell, 74 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: like when a specimen is examined. The creature can be 75 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 1: removed from the shell with ease, though it typically expires 76 00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: if that is done to it. So, um, we've known 77 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: about them for these creatures for thousands of years. They 78 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: pop up an art from three thousand b C. According 79 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: to Mark Carnal writing for The Guardian. But we did 80 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: not know how they made their egg shells until the 81 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 1: nineteenth century. So this is what happens. The female and 82 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: only the female secretes the shells via specialized arms and 83 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 1: the resulting shell it's essentially a floatation device that resembles 84 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 1: the shell of extinct ammonites. They lay their eggs inside 85 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 1: of these shells. They retreat inside. Sometimes you'll you'll you'll 86 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: find the detached reproductive arm of a male a hectocotalist, 87 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: and then she'll use she'll use the shell though, to 88 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:12,160 Speaker 1: control her buoyancy in the water. There's so many interesting 89 00:05:12,200 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: things going on here. I mean, number one is just 90 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: the implied history of mating that at some point a 91 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: male octopus came along and made it by what tearing 92 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: off one of its own arms and giving it to her. Yeah. Yeah, 93 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: basically it is like a detachable sexual organ, uh, that 94 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: then she keeps. But yeah, the other thing about this 95 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: shell that's so fascinating is when we think of shells, 96 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: we think of just pure defense. We think of the 97 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 1: hard shelter that has grown out of the animal that 98 00:05:38,880 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 1: the animal may retreat into. Right, But they're in the 99 00:05:41,320 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: common name the paper nautilus. It implies that the shell 100 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: is very delicate. Yeah, it is not a defensive structure, 101 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: at least not in the same way that a true 102 00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: shell is. I mean it is you can't argue that 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: it is protected for the young that reside within it, 104 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: because it is a very slim barrier between them in 105 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:00,760 Speaker 1: the open ocean, and you know, keeps them close to 106 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: the female. But mainly it is the means by which 107 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,080 Speaker 1: this particular type of octopod returned to the open sea 108 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,799 Speaker 1: as its skin had largely evolved for sea floor life, 109 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: and left the open waters to the squid. Okay, so 110 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: the octopus is generally going to be found, uh, I 111 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 1: don't know, along the bottom or maybe hiding along along 112 00:06:21,560 --> 00:06:23,599 Speaker 1: a reef or something like that. But this one just 113 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 1: takes out to the open waters with a flotation device 114 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:29,480 Speaker 1: of its own, making like one way. And this is 115 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: you know, an elaborate and probably a little poetiquet to 116 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:34,679 Speaker 1: think of it. But you can think of the squid 117 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: as the angel, and the octopus is the fallen angels 118 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: has lost its wings, but this particular octopod has I 119 00:06:42,680 --> 00:06:46,839 Speaker 1: guess Miltonian aspirations and or or is or is you know, 120 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: lined up with the thinking of data lists and icarus, 121 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,560 Speaker 1: and it is building its own shell that will that 122 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:55,760 Speaker 1: in this case, we'll will allow it to ascend up 123 00:06:56,040 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 1: in the water towards the surface. Now there's another thing 124 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: I want to throw in as a when you get 125 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,960 Speaker 1: into the sexual dimorphism here, the females are up to 126 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: six hundred times the weight of the males. Uh. And 127 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: again the males do not engage in this kind of 128 00:07:10,520 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 1: shell construction and growth. But a great deal of mystery 129 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: remains about how the argonaut lives its life and and 130 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: indeed how they even evolved. Uh Neil Monks and Sea 131 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: Phil Palmer, authors of the two thousand two Smithsonian book Ammonites. 132 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: They have suggested that these ancient octopuses might have depended 133 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 1: on the discarded shells of ammonites in prehistoric times and 134 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,920 Speaker 1: use their abilities to mend the shells. So the idea 135 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,200 Speaker 1: might be that originally they stole shells from a now 136 00:07:40,280 --> 00:07:43,800 Speaker 1: extinct animal and then use these uh uh, these abilities 137 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: to to patch them up and make them fit, to 138 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: customize them a little bit, but still largely depend on 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: the stolen shell. Interesting, I mean, there is a physical similarity. 140 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: If you haven't seen ammonite shells that they tend to 141 00:07:53,800 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: be spiral shaped there at some point in the past. 142 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: I talked about our recent trip to Lime Region us 143 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: in uh in the UK, where on the beach you 144 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: can find fossils of ammonites from you know, hundreds of 145 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: millions of years ago, and there are these colossal serial 146 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: killer spirals etched into the rocks. It's very very cool. 147 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: But yeah, at some point the ammonites disappeared, So they 148 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: went extinct in the Cretaceous Paleogene extinction event. And so 149 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: what what do you do if you depend upon that shell? 150 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: So the idea here is that the the ancient paper 151 00:08:25,560 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 1: nautilus is then had to use their mending skills to 152 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 1: just create a shell of their own in order to 153 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: do the same sort of things that they did previously. 154 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,160 Speaker 1: So what they what they once used to repair, they 155 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: had to create from scratch. Yes, that's that's at least 156 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 1: one one theory that's out there. It's also highly possible 157 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:47,439 Speaker 1: that we're just talking about covergent evolution here and the 158 00:08:47,480 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: paper nautilus is eggshell just happens to resemble that of 159 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: an ammonite. Sure, but it really does look similar, but 160 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 1: then again you can see other signs of similar types 161 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,160 Speaker 1: of possible convergent evolution. I mean the nautilus, not the 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: paper nautilus, but the animal just normally called the nautilus 163 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 1: is like the a marine mollusk has a shell that 164 00:09:04,679 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: sort of resembles an m nite shell. Also, yeah, absolutely 165 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: still a fascinating creature and also definitely a creature worthy 166 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: of poetic consideration. Speaking and speaking of poetry. They also 167 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: show up in in other works of literature, including twenty 168 00:09:19,880 --> 00:09:23,199 Speaker 1: thousand Leagues Under the Sea by Jules Verne. Uh, there's 169 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 1: a there's a section in it where they are, uh 170 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 1: there they are aboard the nautilus, the submarine, and uh 171 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,280 Speaker 1: they are They've come up to the surface and they 172 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: observe these creatures. They observed the paper nautilus, the argonaute 173 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 1: in action. So here's a quote from the book. Quote. Now, 174 00:09:40,080 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 1: it was a school of argonauts then voyaging on the 175 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,839 Speaker 1: surface of the ocean. We could count several hundred of them. 176 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:49,319 Speaker 1: They belong to that species of argonauts, covered with protuberances 177 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: and exclusive to the seas near India. These graceful mollusks 178 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:57,160 Speaker 1: were swimming backwards by means of their locomotive tubes, sucking 179 00:09:57,200 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 1: water into these tubes and then expelling it. Six They're 180 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: eight tentacles were long, thin and floated on the water, 181 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: while the other two were rounded into palms and spread 182 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:09,160 Speaker 1: to the wind like light sails. I could see perfectly. 183 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: They're undulating spiral shaped shells, which Cuvier aptly compared to 184 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: an elegant cockle boat. It's an actual boat. Indeed, it 185 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 1: transports the animal that secretes it without the animal sticking 186 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:23,120 Speaker 1: to it. The Argonaut is free to leave its shell, 187 00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: I told Consil, but it never does not, unlike Captain Nemo. 188 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 1: Conseil replied sage Lee, which is why he should have 189 00:10:30,320 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 1: christened it his ship, the Argonaut. Oh that's good, it's 190 00:10:33,920 --> 00:10:36,360 Speaker 1: a shell of his own design. Yeah. So now they're 191 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 1: also referring in this passage to this um, this myth 192 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:42,720 Speaker 1: or this outdated idea that they could use their arms 193 00:10:42,720 --> 00:10:44,959 Speaker 1: as sails and sail across the top of the water, 194 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,000 Speaker 1: and that the shell is like actually a boat, and 195 00:10:48,000 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: it really in some sense as it is, because it 196 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,160 Speaker 1: aids the creature in it's in its buoyancy. But anyway, 197 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: that's just a fun little literary usage of the argonaut, 198 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: and it also alludes to that fact that yes, it can. 199 00:11:00,600 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: It can technically leave the shell, because it doesn't actually 200 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:07,760 Speaker 1: grow that the shell. It kind of makes it. But 201 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:09,880 Speaker 1: if if you were to remove the species from it, 202 00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: shall it typically dies. This is such a cool animal, 203 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 1: And I like the idea that Jules Verne was like 204 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: halfway through writing twenty Leagues and he discovered this animal 205 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 1: and He's like, oh, I should have gone back and 206 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 1: named it the argonaut from the beginning, but I'd take 207 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: too much revision. I'll just plow ahead and I'll have 208 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 1: a character acknowledge, like it really would have been better 209 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: if it was called this other thing. But anyway, I 210 00:11:32,160 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: wanted to come back to the ending of the poem 211 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: by Marianne Moore. This powerful ending is what got me 212 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: really thinking about the subject for today's episode and the 213 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: next one. This idea of this eight armed cephalopod clutching 214 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: at its egg case, as if each of its arms 215 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: knew that love is the only fortress strong enough to 216 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 1: trust too. Does the paper nautilus feel love? Do the 217 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: coiled arms of the argonauts simply clutch or do they embrace? 218 00:11:58,520 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: Do they hug? With all the emotional and you know, 219 00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: the baggage that comes with that. I think most everyone 220 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: would probably I think the gut response that people are 221 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: generally gonna have is no, You're gonna think, no, a 222 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:14,200 Speaker 1: a paper nautilus is not going to be capable of 223 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: of love. Love is what humans do. And you know, 224 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:21,560 Speaker 1: maybe specific animals that we uh live closely with that 225 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: we anthropomorphize enough into, but not the not the octopi, 226 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: not the not the the world of invertebrates. Well, I 227 00:12:28,640 --> 00:12:31,120 Speaker 1: don't know, it's I mean, people would I think you'd 228 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: encounter a lot of divergent opinion about that. On one hand, 229 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: you can say, yeah, I mean, of course you're gonna 230 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: have a problem of if you believe that an octopus 231 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:42,600 Speaker 1: can love? I mean, how could you prove that? Uh? 232 00:12:42,640 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: And so? And we'll address questions like that as we 233 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:49,000 Speaker 1: move on. But more broadly, I guess, can you can 234 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:54,079 Speaker 1: you imagine invertebrates in general feeling anything analogous to the 235 00:12:54,160 --> 00:12:57,679 Speaker 1: kind of plain, familiar emotions that we name in poems. 236 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,200 Speaker 1: You know, does a does a crab feel fear? Does 237 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: a bumblebee feel hate? Uh? Does a snail feel discussed 238 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,160 Speaker 1: or jealousy? Or joy or you know, is it as 239 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: you're sort of suggesting folly to meaningfully apply these words 240 00:13:11,600 --> 00:13:16,040 Speaker 1: outside of humans, and maybe they're more closely related vertebrate relatives. Well, 241 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: but then the other side to look at it, and 242 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 1: this is something we'll continue to discuss as well, is 243 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 1: that you bring up poetry, and poetry is very much 244 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: a part of the and I love poetry, but it 245 00:13:25,720 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: is part of the cult of human emotion indefinitely places 246 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: things like love on a golden pedestal. And and so 247 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: there's kind of a push and pull here when we 248 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:37,720 Speaker 1: look to the world of animals. We have to be 249 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: willing to throw our emotions off of that golden pedestal 250 00:13:42,600 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: and and look at what they really are from you know, 251 00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 1: psychological and even biological standpoint. And at the same time 252 00:13:49,920 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: we have to be able to look to the animal 253 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: world and be willing to attribute these uh, these knockdown 254 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 1: emotions to them as well. Well, yeah, I mean that 255 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 1: that's the other side of it. I mean, some people, 256 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,160 Speaker 1: I think would say you're being stingy if you say 257 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:06,719 Speaker 1: that that an argonaut can't love. But then I think 258 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: there are also people who would say, like, you're really 259 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,600 Speaker 1: you know, degrading my feeling of my relationships and and 260 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: my love. If you say that, an octopus can do 261 00:14:14,679 --> 00:14:17,520 Speaker 1: the same thing, right, So it gets it gets complicated, 262 00:14:17,559 --> 00:14:19,520 Speaker 1: and there's plenty of room to be piste off on 263 00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 1: both sides. So hopefully we'll piss everyone off as we 264 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,200 Speaker 1: proceed here. Well, maybe we should take a break, and 265 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: then when we come back we can try to address 266 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:33,120 Speaker 1: the thorny difficult question of what our emotions than. All right, 267 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: we're back, So to proceed here, we're going to have 268 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: to take a quick stab an exceedingly huge and complicated question, 269 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: which is what our emotions. Obviously this is something we 270 00:14:44,760 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: can't answer adequately in a subsection of one episode, but 271 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: we'll do our best to try to to hint at 272 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,840 Speaker 1: the broad picture of what this question entails. Yeah, it 273 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:57,480 Speaker 1: can be so tricky to even contemplate this because because 274 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,160 Speaker 1: and one of the big things is that emotions are 275 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:04,680 Speaker 1: the tumultuous, see that we're constantly immersed in that where 276 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: we feel cast about in you know. And this is 277 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 1: again this gets into poetry as well, Right, how many 278 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: poems are about you know, the mail storm of emotion, 279 00:15:13,440 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: you know, and and and how we just feel like 280 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: we're just a victim to them. Well, yeah, I mean 281 00:15:17,600 --> 00:15:20,080 Speaker 1: we we often think of emotions as being something that's 282 00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: inside us, but it's almost more apt to think of 283 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: us as being inside them. Like we can't see the 284 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: whole thing, We don't have perspective. We're it's more like 285 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: a c on which we are floating. I think that's 286 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: a great metaphor. And yet at the same time we 287 00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 1: are the sea, you know, Like we often fall into this, uh, 288 00:15:37,800 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: into this model that I think is largely what you 289 00:15:39,760 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: see in the work of some of the you know, 290 00:15:41,600 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 1: the classic philosophers of logic and emotion, and then like 291 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: logic is the domain of you know, logic and reason 292 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: on one hand, and then they're the the enemies of 293 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: passion that uh that that tear us apart, the Apollo 294 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: and Dionysus model exactly. Yeah, and so it's easy to 295 00:15:56,800 --> 00:15:58,720 Speaker 1: fall back on that. It's just baked into so much 296 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 1: of our culture. Yeah, And and just in general, emotion 297 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: is just something we're too close to. I sometimes feel, 298 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 1: I feel that emotion is like a cantalope, you know, 299 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: like when you buy a cantaloupe, when you cut, you 300 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: don't know what it's gonna be you cut into it, though, 301 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: and when it's great, there's nothing else like it. It's amazing, 302 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: And when it's bad, it's just the worst. I don't 303 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: know if I feel this way about candle up, I 304 00:16:19,120 --> 00:16:23,880 Speaker 1: feel this way about tomatoes. Yeah, tomato. My favorite food 305 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 1: in the world is a really good ripe summer tomato. 306 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: And there's nothing worse than a meli off season tomato. Yes, 307 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:33,040 Speaker 1: the tomato is also a great example of human emotion, 308 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of our meditative and monastic 309 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:40,520 Speaker 1: traditions are ultimately aimed at fostering as much as possible 310 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: a dependable honeydew melon mental state, something where you know, 311 00:16:44,240 --> 00:16:46,640 Speaker 1: you cut into it and it's not gonna be just 312 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 1: it's not gonna knock your socks off, but it's also 313 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 1: not going to discuss you. It's going to be a nice, pleasant, 314 00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: dependable experience right there in the middle, calming the seas, 315 00:16:55,040 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: eliminating the highs and lows, creating equanimity. So this is 316 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 1: this is where we are. You know, we're feeling creatures, 317 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: for better or worse. But we've always tried to figure 318 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: out emotions. We've tried to figure it out for for ages, 319 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 1: the greatest thinkers, philosophers, artist, scientist sages. Uh, you know, 320 00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: religious leaders throughout history have contemplated their nature and formulated 321 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 1: various theories. And we could easily do a multi part 322 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,240 Speaker 1: series on the question of human emotions. But the short 323 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: view is that we have basically three ways of considering them. 324 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 1: First of all, there's the idea of emotions as feelings. 325 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: The way they feel is what they are, so it's 326 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,920 Speaker 1: a subjective state. And in that sense, the only emotion 327 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,320 Speaker 1: you can ever really know is your own, Like you 328 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: cannot share in anybody else's. You can think you do, 329 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: but you can't know for sure. I mean, does somebody 330 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: else's sadness feel like yours? Does to somebody else's happiness 331 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: feel like yours? Does you know it's it's you? You 332 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 1: are trapped with your subjectivity here, right, And then when 333 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: you get into theory of mind, I mean, I mean, 334 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: that's a whole issue there and itself, like, to what 335 00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: what degree do we attribute the same level of emotional 336 00:18:03,320 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 1: investment to others? And in what cases are we attributing 337 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:09,159 Speaker 1: too much emotion to this individual and less emotion to 338 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: this individual based on a whole host of reasons. Well so, 339 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,359 Speaker 1: But if emotion is just subjectivity, it seems hopeless that 340 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:17,640 Speaker 1: you could ever try to study it in animals. Right, 341 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: If it's just a subjective experience, we have no access 342 00:18:21,320 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: to it whatsoever, right, and and and that would be 343 00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: the danger, right if it was just perpetually tied up 344 00:18:27,320 --> 00:18:31,520 Speaker 1: in the other human concepts of say like consciousness and 345 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: u uh in theory of mind, etcetera. But then we 346 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: have these other two categories. First of all, emotions as evaluations. 347 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: Emotions are evaluations of the primary circumstances that we're dealing with. So, 348 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:48,120 Speaker 1: you know, a huge tie to the environmental stimuli, situational 349 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,240 Speaker 1: stimuli all around us. So emotions are ways of reacting 350 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: to the world that their internal states that signal a 351 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 1: certain response to what you're seeing or dealing with. Right, 352 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,959 Speaker 1: go through a haunted attraction around Halloween, and you you 353 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: feel something like fear or that sort of related safe 354 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,920 Speaker 1: feeling of fear, whatever however you want to categorize it. Uh, 355 00:19:11,000 --> 00:19:14,119 Speaker 1: That is a product of the environment you thrust yourself into, 356 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 1: all right, And if these are internal states that are 357 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:20,760 Speaker 1: products of evaluating an environment, you could then start to 358 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: look at patterns about what the what the features of 359 00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:26,280 Speaker 1: those internal states are, what do they do to the brain? 360 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: What do they cause? How do they cause you to react? 361 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: And I guess that would bring us to the next 362 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,359 Speaker 1: way of looking at it, right, Yes, emotions as motivations. 363 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: Emotions as primarily motivating states. So basically this would be 364 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: a situation of where I am angry and therefore I 365 00:19:41,119 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: strike out at somebody. It causes you to act in 366 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,439 Speaker 1: a certain way. So there's a lot more to it 367 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,360 Speaker 1: than this, but these are those sort of the three 368 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 1: basic pillars that are often discussed. So seemingly, you know, 369 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: we can strike because we are angry, we're angry because 370 00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:59,040 Speaker 1: we strike, and then we also just feel angry, and 371 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: it all becomes this kind of cat's cradle of um 372 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: of physiology, behavior, and situational context. Another way to think 373 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,159 Speaker 1: of emotions is this UH. This is a definition that 374 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: is often used conscious mental reactions that we subjectively experience, 375 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,040 Speaker 1: and these strong feelings are typically directed towards a specific 376 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: object or person, resulting in or caused by UH or 377 00:20:21,440 --> 00:20:25,960 Speaker 1: certainly accompanied by physiological and behavioral change. However, as we'll 378 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: discussing these episodes, throwing consciousness into it rather complicates things 379 00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 1: when we look to other animals, because while emotions are 380 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: certainly tied up in the human conscious experience, is consciousness 381 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: really required to have emotion? I think there's an extremely 382 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 1: strong argument that it is not. Well, you can certainly imagine, say, 383 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 1: a robot that models emotional states without being conscious, right right, 384 00:20:50,320 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 1: and and so you don't know if that's the case 385 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 1: for any other animals. You don't know to what extent 386 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,600 Speaker 1: they're subjectively feeling emotions like you and I do, or 387 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 1: like you resumably do. The robot could still act angry, 388 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:07,359 Speaker 1: and it would still do all the things that an 389 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: angry person would do. Or a robot could act sad 390 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: and still have all the reactions a sad person would have. 391 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: Like if again, if you're coming back to emotions as evaluations, 392 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,679 Speaker 1: you could consider a screensaver on a This is a 393 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,280 Speaker 1: very simple model of it, but a screensaver on a 394 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:26,920 Speaker 1: computer screen is a response to um to what's going 395 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:30,160 Speaker 1: on in the world. Like nobody's using the keyboard right now, 396 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 1: somebody's away from the machine. Uh so a relaxed date 397 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: comes into place. There's a paper we're gonna look at 398 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: later in the episode. Well, we'll come back to it 399 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: in a bit, But it's by a Clint J. Perry 400 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:44,960 Speaker 1: and Luigi Battia Donna that tried to put together all 401 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: all of these disparate ways of looking at emotion into 402 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: a single definition that could be used for objective research purposes, 403 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,360 Speaker 1: and it comes out with something that will really make 404 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,120 Speaker 1: your heart burn. Is just you know, full of feeling. Quote. 405 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 1: Emotions are transient central states comprising subjective, cognitive, behavioral, and 406 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,919 Speaker 1: physiological phenomena that are triggered by appraisal of certain types 407 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 1: of environmental stimuli. On one hand, I think that's great 408 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 1: because it really does capture all the things you'd be 409 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: looking for if you're trying to study emotions in a 410 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: scientific way. On the other hand, that just sounds hilarious. 411 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: I think that's that sentence is a great It is 412 00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 1: a great example of why you need those three categories, 413 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:30,159 Speaker 1: because if you run it all together there it just 414 00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: sounds it's a little overwhelming. But if you break it 415 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:36,160 Speaker 1: down into three definite, definite categories of consideration, I feel 416 00:22:36,200 --> 00:22:38,640 Speaker 1: like it it makes a lot more sense, at least 417 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: to me. Yeah, well, we'll come back to another pretty 418 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 1: similar way of breaking it down. When we actually look 419 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: at the study. But first I wanted to come back 420 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: to the eight armed world where we started, So we 421 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 1: started off talking about the paper Nautilus, the also known 422 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,760 Speaker 1: as the argonaut, this great octopus that the builds a 423 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,399 Speaker 1: fortress of love. I think the octopus world is a 424 00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,160 Speaker 1: great place to start if we're looking for what would 425 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:06,640 Speaker 1: be the clearest, easiest examples to find of something that really, 426 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: at least intuitively looks like emotions in the invertebrate world. 427 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 1: Because of course that's it's long been a debate about 428 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: whether thoughts and emotions can be said to exist in 429 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:18,760 Speaker 1: animals other than humans. You know, a lot of scientists 430 00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: would take issue with saying that there are emotions in 431 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:24,399 Speaker 1: any non human animals because they would say, well, if 432 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,239 Speaker 1: we use human terms like happy and sad, that's just 433 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 1: anthropomorphic projection, there's no way to prove it, and so forth. 434 00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: But I really think intuitively, most people are comfortable with 435 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: the idea that some analogs to human emotions exist in 436 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: other animals with complex brains, like mammals and birds. Yeah. 437 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 1: I mean again, I think part of the whole exercise 438 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,879 Speaker 1: is is casting emotions down from that golden pedestal, casting 439 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,360 Speaker 1: away the poetry and and thinking again about what they 440 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: actually are. And certainly it's I imagine that a duck 441 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,160 Speaker 1: is not it never finds itself feeling sad about being 442 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: sad or something, so you know, conscious as the human model, 443 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: but something like sadness that we feel, you you can 444 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: certainly imagine it in a duck or a cat or 445 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: or any of these. Certainly, these these higher organisms that 446 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: come to mind. I mean, it's really easy to see 447 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 1: things that at least really intuitively look like emotions, whether 448 00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 1: we're interpreting them right or not. In social animals like dogs, 449 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: it's really hard for me not to look at my 450 00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:31,119 Speaker 1: dog and think, my dog is happy right now, or 451 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: my dog is angry or something right. I mean, with 452 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 1: all the complexities that come with with with making those 453 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: kind of statements about an animal, of course, because again 454 00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: we can know we can never deny the power of 455 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,080 Speaker 1: anthropomorphism exactly. But one of the first places I wanted 456 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,639 Speaker 1: to go here with invertebrates is that I think what 457 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: I just said about my dog, this powerful intuitive sense 458 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:56,640 Speaker 1: of my you know, day to day experience with a canine, 459 00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,719 Speaker 1: that this animal does feel emotions that are in some 460 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 1: way similar to the emotions. I feel if you wanted 461 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,959 Speaker 1: to look for this pattern of intuition outside of our 462 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: relationships with mammals, I think the octopus is a great 463 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: place to start. So a couple of years ago, one 464 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: of the books that I recommended in our summer reading 465 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: episode was a book by an author named Psi Montgomery 466 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: called The Soul of an Octopus, which is sort of 467 00:25:19,040 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: a cross between a zoology book about the octopus and 468 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:27,160 Speaker 1: a memoir about the author's personal experiences with octopus minds 469 00:25:27,200 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: and the people who study and care for octopuses. And 470 00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: that book, really it still sticks with me today, and 471 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: one of the main reasons is that she presents in 472 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: it all of these anecdotes that look like genuinely powerful 473 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: emotional connections and interactions between humans and cephalopods. It reflects 474 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: this steady, unshakable sensation that many people who work with 475 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,560 Speaker 1: octopuses get, which is, on one hand, they see this strange, 476 00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,199 Speaker 1: alien kind of intelligence, but on the other hand, they 477 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: see a very familiar human kind of intelligence and even 478 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: emotion at work. Of course, again with all the caveats 479 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: that these impressions, you know, they could be anthropomorphic projection. 480 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: I think it's at least worth looking at the types 481 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,720 Speaker 1: of encounters that lead to this sort of thinking, whether 482 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:15,600 Speaker 1: the thinking is correct or not. Yeah, yeah, I agree 483 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,919 Speaker 1: that the octopus is a great example to look to 484 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: because it checks off so many opposite boxes. You know. 485 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: It is uh, it is a it is a solitary 486 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: creature that that lives in in a different environment than 487 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,119 Speaker 1: we do, that has as a totally different structure to 488 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,879 Speaker 1: its body. It's it's like an alien compared to us. 489 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: Distributed intelligence. Also, I mean, the intelligence of an octopus 490 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,679 Speaker 1: is not just central in its head. It's it's it 491 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,479 Speaker 1: appears to be able to think with its arms in 492 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,000 Speaker 1: ways that you know, if we can do something like that, 493 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: it's in a much more limited sense. So to cite 494 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,879 Speaker 1: a couple of the many anecdotes and examples that appear 495 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 1: in the book, the first one is that at one 496 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: point she's sharing a story from a biologist named Scott Dowd. 497 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: So Doubt is working in an aquarium where one of 498 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: his jobs is taking care of a dwarf Caribbean octopus 499 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,520 Speaker 1: who lives in one of the small display tanks, and 500 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: one morning Dowd comes in to find this octopuss tank 501 00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: overflowing onto the floor, and the octopus itself seems to 502 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: have vanished. It's not anywhere to be seen, and eventually 503 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: he finds it. He finds that it has managed to 504 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:28,679 Speaker 1: squeeze itself into the tiny pipe that recirculates water in 505 00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: the tank. This pipe is only about half an inch wide. 506 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: So obviously there's a problem because the water can't recirculate 507 00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:37,919 Speaker 1: because the octopus is clogging the pipe, and you need 508 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: to get the octopus out of the pipe. So what 509 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,400 Speaker 1: do you do? I have no idea what you'd even 510 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 1: begin to do to get something out of an aperture 511 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:48,119 Speaker 1: that's small without harming it. But Dowd in this moment 512 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: he remembers having seen a National geographic special about fisherman 513 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: in Greece who were catching octopuses by setting out in 514 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: four a pots in the ocean is traps, and the 515 00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:04,159 Speaker 1: octopuses would squeeze themselves into these pots, which seemed like 516 00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: perfect dens for them, only to then get hauled up 517 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,840 Speaker 1: to the surface by the fisherman. But how do you 518 00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 1: get the octopus out of the pot without breaking the pot? Well, 519 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: there was a very simple solution. These octopuses were saltwater 520 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,880 Speaker 1: creatures and the fishermen would pour fresh water into the pots. 521 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 1: H So the octopus is obviously being, you know, evolved 522 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:25,920 Speaker 1: for a saltwater environment. They don't like this at all, 523 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: and they would immediately slither out of the pot and 524 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: be captured. All right, That that makes sense. So of 525 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: course dow didn't want to kill and eat the dwarf 526 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: octopus in the tank, but he figured that the same 527 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: process might work to get it out of the pipe, 528 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: and it did. Uh. He flushed it with fresh water 529 00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: and the octopus came out. Now years later, he tried 530 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 1: the same trick to subdue a misbehaving female giant Pacific 531 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 1: octopus that he's working with. And a lot of the 532 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:56,280 Speaker 1: emotional connections that people have with octopuses in this book 533 00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: are with these giant Pacific octopuses. They've they've got a 534 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 1: lot of personality. But the story goes that dowd would 535 00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: you know, he was dealing with this octopus. He would 536 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: lift the top of the tank up to feed it, 537 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: and and she would put her arms out and attach 538 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: herself to his hands, and he would be unable to 539 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,080 Speaker 1: get her to let go. And if he managed to 540 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: peel one of the creature's arms off, of him. She 541 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,560 Speaker 1: would just instantly wrapped two or more, you know, around 542 00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:23,560 Speaker 1: the same hand. Again, So like, how do you get 543 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:26,600 Speaker 1: this octopus off of you? Well, he remembered his earlier 544 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,320 Speaker 1: experience with the tiny octopus in the fresh water, so 545 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: he got the idea to repel the larger octopus the 546 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: same way. He filled up a picture in the sink 547 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:37,480 Speaker 1: and he poured it over the octopus clinging to his hand, 548 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: and again, at first it worked. The octopus let go 549 00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: of him and recoiled sharply, and Dowd said, for a 550 00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: moment he was proud of himself for having rediscovered this 551 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: useful trick and outsmarted this crafty creature. But then to 552 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 1: read the next section from Montgomery's book, But the octopus 553 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: was incensed. Quote she got scarlet red and really thorny. 554 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 1: It was a heated moment. What I didn't notice, he said, 555 00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: was she was blowing herself up. She siphoned up a 556 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: massive load of water and gushed a major surge of 557 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: salt water onto my face. As he stood there dripping, 558 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,680 Speaker 1: Scott noticed the octopus had the same look on her 559 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: face as I must have had on mine when I 560 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,000 Speaker 1: thought I had outwitted her. Now, which part of the 561 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: octopus is the face? Now here? Here you may be 562 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: onto something. I don't know. How do you find the 563 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,600 Speaker 1: octopus is face? I mean, it's got eyes, but they're 564 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: not really front facing, are they. I mean we can easily. 565 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: I mean again, our anthropomorphic powers are such that we 566 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: can easily devise one. I believe there was a wasn't 567 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 1: there recently an issue with the masters of emoticons. They 568 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: made an octopus emoticon that rearranged the anatomy to make 569 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: it look more face like, and I believe a biologist 570 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,600 Speaker 1: corrected them on this. Oh wait a minute, though, I 571 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: know that you find an octopus face sometimes when you 572 00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: look into your environment, because when you see the forked 573 00:30:58,520 --> 00:31:02,440 Speaker 1: coat hook on the door, you see the boxer octopus. Yes, 574 00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: but I see a cartoon octopus, and cartoons are human 575 00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 1: and have faces. Cartoon animals are generally of animals that 576 00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: have been made human. Okay, I guess you're right about that. 577 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,400 Speaker 1: But coming back to the story about about Scott doubt 578 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,000 Speaker 1: in the octopus, that there is something about this kind 579 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: of apparent anger and reciprocal vengeance that feels very much 580 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,960 Speaker 1: like an analog of complex human emotion. Again, maybe you know, 581 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: we're maybe we're just overreading into a single anecdote, but 582 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 1: the book is full of anecdotes like this where people 583 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: really feel like they're having these emotionally charged interactions with 584 00:31:39,120 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: these eight armed critters. Yeah, Like a defensive display is 585 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: essentially what we're talking about here, um and and like 586 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,640 Speaker 1: that does have an emotional resonance, Like if you see 587 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: a cat with a defensive display, a horse, a dog, 588 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 1: et cetera, Like you know what they're about, that there's 589 00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,520 Speaker 1: a message they are sending. Then there is a presumed 590 00:31:57,560 --> 00:32:01,520 Speaker 1: emotional state behind it. And you know, we we we 591 00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: get it. We don't even have to be able to 592 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 1: put it into words to to know what that state is. Yeah, 593 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 1: and the really interesting part is not that it was 594 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: a defensive display when something was about to happen that 595 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: the octopus didn't like. It happened after like he poured 596 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: the fresh water on it, then it went back in 597 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: its tank. Then it puffed up and got red and 598 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,239 Speaker 1: shot him back. Like isn't that much more interesting than 599 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: if he had been like coming at it with something 600 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 1: it didn't want. But there's another part of the book 601 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk about real quick. That speaks of 602 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,840 Speaker 1: how persuasive the octopus's behavior was in convincing the people 603 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 1: who worked with him that they had character, personality, and 604 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:41,920 Speaker 1: something like an inner life quote. The students were supposed 605 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: to refer to their animals by numbers in their research papers, 606 00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:51,720 Speaker 1: but they ended up calling them by name jet Stream, Martha, Gertrude, Henry, Bob. 607 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: Some were so friendly. A researcher named Alexa said they 608 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: would lift their arms out of the water like a 609 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: dog jumps up to greet you, or like a child 610 00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: who wants to be lifted up and hugged. And then 611 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,000 Speaker 1: there's a there's one more story from Alexa in there, 612 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,680 Speaker 1: uh where she says quote. And then there was Windy. 613 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: Alexa used her as part of her thesis presentation. It 614 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: was a formal event that was videotaped, for which Alexa 615 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: wore a nice suit. As soon as the camera started rolling, 616 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,760 Speaker 1: Wendy drenched the student with salt water. The octopus scurried 617 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,680 Speaker 1: to the bottom of the tank, hid in the sand, 618 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,960 Speaker 1: and refused to come out. Alexa is convinced the whole 619 00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,400 Speaker 1: debacle occurred because the octopus realized in advance what was 620 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: going to happen and resolved to prevent its crafty. Now, 621 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: on the other hand, I think we need to recognize 622 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: that the subjective impressions of people who work directly with 623 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:42,520 Speaker 1: animals are probably going to be prone to all kinds 624 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: of biases. I mean, even people who work with robots 625 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: tend to attribute lots of essentially human qualities of mind 626 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: to those robots. They name the robots. They think of 627 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: the robots as having personalities and intentions apart from their 628 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 1: explicit programming. You know, I often think Johnny the room 629 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: bas is being jive us. He's chasing me around the 630 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,280 Speaker 1: house or around the kitchen right now. Uh, And yeah, 631 00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: we're not tempted to actually think those impressions are telling 632 00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,840 Speaker 1: it telling us anything real about the emotions of robots. No, 633 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,360 Speaker 1: but I mean to whatever extent it would be useful 634 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,440 Speaker 1: in dealing with robot or or more you know, realistically 635 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:24,640 Speaker 1: an animal. Uh. Then we see the usefulness of that anthropomorphism. Um, 636 00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: like the you know, the classic example being like, if 637 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:29,919 Speaker 1: you're dealing with an animal that could be dangerous when 638 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 1: it's uh, when it's in a defensive mood, you know, uh, 639 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: like it's it's it's not so much about like the 640 00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,160 Speaker 1: detail of the emotion that you were you were imagining 641 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: in its head. But but it's more about the degree 642 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:49,440 Speaker 1: to which it matches up with how it may act 643 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: and then allowing you to respond appropriately or or to 644 00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 1: not respond at all. Like this, this animal is mad, 645 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: this animal is aggressive. I should not get close to 646 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: it right now. But you know, it's it's one thing 647 00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:04,760 Speaker 1: for a scientist, Tom, you know, to have to avoid 648 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: intentionally inserting their anthropomorphic feelings into a study. Uh, you know, 649 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 1: but our but again, our theory of mind powers are 650 00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:15,000 Speaker 1: useful in our relationships with animals. And I think you can, 651 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,759 Speaker 1: you can, you can, you can state that they would 652 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:20,400 Speaker 1: be useful in interactions with animals even in a study, 653 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: provided that you could still separate those feelings from the data. Sure, 654 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: I mean I would say that they would be useful 655 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:32,239 Speaker 1: insofar as they accurately predict outcomes, right, which sometimes they can. 656 00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: So again, I think it's it's important for us to 657 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,280 Speaker 1: be able to to take human emotions off of the pedestal, 658 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:42,560 Speaker 1: uh and and think more about what they are and 659 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: and and stating that okay, um, you know the mind 660 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 1: of an animal, the mind of an octopus or whatever. 661 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: You know, their mind is a vessel that cannot hold 662 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,719 Speaker 1: the shape of our own emotional states. But our experience 663 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,280 Speaker 1: plus theory of mind allows us to have this instantaneous, 664 00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,160 Speaker 1: you know, almost translate equal understanding of the basic properties 665 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:04,879 Speaker 1: of the other's emotional state. Yeah, I mean, I guess 666 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,279 Speaker 1: anytime we're trying to study emotional states, whether that's in 667 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:10,840 Speaker 1: animals or really even in other people, I mean, you 668 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,840 Speaker 1: have to accept the subjective disconnect, that you're not necessarily 669 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:17,840 Speaker 1: talking about the same things in terms of subjective feelings, 670 00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:20,759 Speaker 1: but that once you get into these subjective criteria that 671 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: we alluded to earlier, and I guess what we're coming 672 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: back to now, um, you can start to look for 673 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: behavioral and cognitive analogies. Another way of thinking about it, 674 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,680 Speaker 1: to go back to my earlier metaphor of the cat's 675 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: cradle of you know, of getting some yarn and weaving 676 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:39,239 Speaker 1: it between your your fingers and creating a pattern. Right, uh, 677 00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: you know, criss crossing array of string casts between the 678 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,399 Speaker 1: fingers of two hands. Ultimately, fewer or more fingers are 679 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,239 Speaker 1: not going to make it any less a cat's cradle. Right, 680 00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: So if if you know, if five fingers are the 681 00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: shape of human cognitive complexity. There's a certain emotional um 682 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,319 Speaker 1: web that we can weave and that we're trapped in 683 00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: most of the time. But you know, animals say they 684 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,920 Speaker 1: just have the have three fingers to cast that web with. 685 00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:13,440 Speaker 1: I mean, they're still casting the web, and then we 686 00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: might easily conceive what would it be like to to 687 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: cast a cat's cradle if you had seven fingers on 688 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: each hand. Uh, it would it would be more complex, 689 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: It might be difficult for us to imagine what that 690 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 1: would be like cognitively, emotionally, or what have you, but 691 00:37:26,719 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: it would still be something that is relatable to that experience. Well, 692 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,680 Speaker 1: maybe we should take another break and then when we 693 00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: come back we can discuss relating the human experience of 694 00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: emotions to analogous uh, behaviors and cognition and animals. Than alright, 695 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 1: we're back. We've been talking about emotion. We've been talking 696 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: about emotion in animals and what exactly we would be 697 00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: looking for in trying to find that emotion, especially emotion 698 00:37:55,640 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: in invertebrates. Because people are generally, I think more comfortable 699 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: with the idea that we see something strongly analogous to 700 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: human emotions and other animals like say, you know, mammals 701 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,560 Speaker 1: with complex brains, social mammals and stuff, right like not 702 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: not only is everyone, I think pretty on board with 703 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: the idea to say dogs have emotions or even cats 704 00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: have emotions, it would be it would almost be socially 705 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: dangerous to suggest otherwise. Are you saying you want to 706 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:27,000 Speaker 1: suggest otherwise? No, you're afraid No, no, I think, especially 707 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,320 Speaker 1: again going back to the idea of taking the human 708 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 1: poetic idea of emotion and bringing it down to a 709 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: more realistic level, stripping the poetry away from it. I 710 00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 1: think without a doubt dogs and cats and and other 711 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: organisms we might even sometimes not not wish to think 712 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: about having emotions, such as pigs and cows, um, you know, 713 00:38:48,280 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 1: they definitely have emotional states. Uh so yeah, I would 714 00:38:51,800 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 1: not be the one to suggest that dogs don't have emotions, 715 00:38:54,440 --> 00:38:57,200 Speaker 1: And I pity the person who does make that suggestion 716 00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: because they will be attacked on the street. Well, let's 717 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,120 Speaker 1: see if we can start some street fights about crowd ads. Okay, 718 00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:05,400 Speaker 1: so for the next for the rest of this episode 719 00:39:05,400 --> 00:39:08,080 Speaker 1: and then for most of the next episode. Also, I 720 00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: think we're going to be looking mainly at this one paper. 721 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: It was A good paper I found published in seventeen 722 00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,280 Speaker 1: in the Journal of Experimental Biology by Clint J. Perry 723 00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:21,600 Speaker 1: and Luigi Battia Donna, called studying emotion in invertebrates what 724 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,480 Speaker 1: has been done, what can be measured, and what they 725 00:39:24,520 --> 00:39:28,040 Speaker 1: can provide uh. And so these two researchers I believe 726 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: are both at Queen Mary University of London, and this 727 00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,480 Speaker 1: is not a single study but large review of existing 728 00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: research on invertebrate emotions. There actually aren't that many studies 729 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,160 Speaker 1: on invertebrate emotions. It's a fairly recent field, but what 730 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,359 Speaker 1: is out there is, at least in my mind, very interesting. Now. 731 00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 1: The authors point out that invertebrates have long played a 732 00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,239 Speaker 1: role in the history of neuroscience. It was researching invertebrates 733 00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:57,120 Speaker 1: in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries that taught us 734 00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:00,920 Speaker 1: what neurons were and how they were structured. UH. Insects 735 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: are often believed to lack the structural neural complexity necessary 736 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,520 Speaker 1: to generate complex states like emotions. The people think their 737 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,879 Speaker 1: brains are just too simple. You know, when you've got 738 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:15,480 Speaker 1: a brain that structurally simple, with you know, such a 739 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:18,480 Speaker 1: few number of neurons, they just couldn't have a complex 740 00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,880 Speaker 1: state like a persistent emotional state. Uh, And their behavior 741 00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 1: is often characterized in terms of simple sense or emotor response. 742 00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:30,040 Speaker 1: So a snail or a spider might have an automatic 743 00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: response that causes it to retreat from a hot match, 744 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 1: but the animal isn't feeling anything that could reasonably be 745 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:41,040 Speaker 1: called called, you know, anger or fear a persistent emotional state. 746 00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:43,920 Speaker 1: That that's often the view. But the authors think this 747 00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: old view is due for revision due to this growing 748 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: body of research showing various invertebrates, not just octopuses like 749 00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: we were just talking about, being capable of mental phenomena 750 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: previously considered unthinkable, including all kinds of stuff concept learning, 751 00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: numerical cause mission, cultural transmission, and so forth. So in 752 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: order to study emotion and animals, we need to land 753 00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,719 Speaker 1: on a definition that that makes emotions susceptible to external detection. 754 00:41:11,800 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: And that's where that definition that I mentioned earlier in 755 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:17,359 Speaker 1: the episode comes in again. It is quote, emotions are 756 00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:25,000 Speaker 1: transient central states comprising subjective, cognitive, behavioral, and physiological phenomena 757 00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:29,120 Speaker 1: that are triggered by appraisal of certain types of environmental stimuli. 758 00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 1: So something in the environment causes it. The animals appraisal 759 00:41:33,880 --> 00:41:37,960 Speaker 1: of that thing in the environment triggers an internal state. 760 00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: And these internal states have subjective, cognitive, behavioral, and physiological effects. 761 00:41:44,320 --> 00:41:47,480 Speaker 1: And when you break it down like that, uh, I 762 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,520 Speaker 1: feel like you have a model then that you can. 763 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 1: You can you can certainly, you know, informally attribute to 764 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:56,799 Speaker 1: a wide variety of organisms. But more to the point, 765 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,520 Speaker 1: you can you can potentially test for it exactly. And well, 766 00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,279 Speaker 1: you can definitely test for like three of the four effects. 767 00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,480 Speaker 1: You can't test for subjective states. We don't get. That 768 00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: goes back to the three examples we had are earlier 769 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: that feeling is what it feels like. Yeah, you can't 770 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 1: do that, but the other three you can. So emotions 771 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,000 Speaker 1: are thought to have cognitive effects. Emotions affect how you 772 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: think and how you perceive. They have behavioral effects. Emotions 773 00:42:22,640 --> 00:42:25,360 Speaker 1: affect what you do with your body, and they have 774 00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:31,240 Speaker 1: physiological effects. Emotions affect unconscious or involuntary reactions within the body. 775 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,640 Speaker 1: So just for example, to use fear, there is of 776 00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,799 Speaker 1: course the subjective experience of fear, and we can only 777 00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,319 Speaker 1: know this in the first person. You just assume by 778 00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:44,160 Speaker 1: analogy that everybody else feels a similar subjective experience when 779 00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:48,440 Speaker 1: they're afraid. But external observers, you know, could document cognitive 780 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,840 Speaker 1: changes during fear, such as increased awareness of sensory stimulized 781 00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:56,439 Speaker 1: signaling danger. Maybe for example, when an animal is feeling fear, 782 00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,279 Speaker 1: it is more likely to notice movement and its peripheral 783 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,759 Speaker 1: vision in the state. You could notice behavioral changes such 784 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 1: as threat displays or retreat behaviors. You could notice physiological 785 00:43:08,400 --> 00:43:11,080 Speaker 1: changes such as increased heart rate or the release of 786 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,400 Speaker 1: fight or flight hormones like epinefn or epernefer and and 787 00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:19,439 Speaker 1: all that. You can notice dilated pupils, relaxation of the bladder, etcetera. Yeah, 788 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: I mean we've to to go back to episodes that 789 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: we've we've done on human fear and like the nature 790 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,839 Speaker 1: of fear. Uh, it's uh, it really change. It kind 791 00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:31,560 Speaker 1: of changes who you are. It always makes me think 792 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,600 Speaker 1: of the hunter S. Thompson quote. You're a whole different 793 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 1: person when you're scared. Uh. You know, we think we 794 00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: know how we're going to behave in in a situation 795 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: of real fear, but we can't always be sure unless 796 00:43:44,120 --> 00:43:48,000 Speaker 1: we have sort of you know, performed enough exercises and 797 00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:50,680 Speaker 1: fear if you will and even then there may be 798 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,560 Speaker 1: unknowns well. Of course, so fear, like other emotions, has 799 00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: cognitive and behavioral effects, in some cases very strong ones. 800 00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: What is who you are, It is your how you 801 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:03,000 Speaker 1: think and how you act. Yeah, I mean there are 802 00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:05,520 Speaker 1: studying again, these are human studies, but there, you know, 803 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,360 Speaker 1: there are studies that have looked at how fear and 804 00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:12,279 Speaker 1: uncertainty affect our politics, you know something, as you know, 805 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,719 Speaker 1: generally we think of as very very complex and nuanced 806 00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:17,680 Speaker 1: and based in ideas and very stable. Yeah, it's just 807 00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 1: based on what we believe in a kind of permanent 808 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,880 Speaker 1: or semi permanent way. But no, I mean people's political 809 00:44:23,280 --> 00:44:27,600 Speaker 1: opinions appear to fluctuate based on their their emotional states 810 00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:29,879 Speaker 1: day to day, moment to moment. Yeah, which of course 811 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,920 Speaker 1: should not come as a surprise if you're you know, 812 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,759 Speaker 1: aware of the degree to which emotions are manipulated by politicians. 813 00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:40,000 Speaker 1: But but but yeah, like you you add, you change 814 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:44,480 Speaker 1: the emotional state, you change how the animal behaves and 815 00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:47,560 Speaker 1: perceives the world. Right, So I think in the time 816 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:50,080 Speaker 1: we have left to in today's episode, we've got time 817 00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,719 Speaker 1: to look at the first one of these, the cognitive 818 00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:56,319 Speaker 1: tests for invertebrate emotions. And we'll have to save the 819 00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,960 Speaker 1: other types of tests for the next episode. But to 820 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:01,960 Speaker 1: look at the cognitive tests, one of the things that 821 00:45:02,040 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 1: you can do to study emotions in UH, in humans, 822 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,920 Speaker 1: of course, but also in other animals is something known 823 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,640 Speaker 1: as a judgment bias test. So imagine what is meant 824 00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,760 Speaker 1: by a test phrase. Here's a test phrase, the doctor 825 00:45:15,800 --> 00:45:19,040 Speaker 1: examined little Emily's growth. Al Right, Well, that that just 826 00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:22,000 Speaker 1: brings to mind that the clear image of little Emily, 827 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,879 Speaker 1: and like a Norman Norman Rockwell painting, be exam being 828 00:45:24,920 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: examined by the doctor, and the doctor finding this grotesque 829 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:31,399 Speaker 1: mass on the back of her neck. Well, it turns out, 830 00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,240 Speaker 1: so this is an ambiguous phrase. People interpret it different ways, 831 00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,879 Speaker 1: and at least in some studies, people with some conditions 832 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:44,799 Speaker 1: negative emotional conditions like depression or generalized anxiety were more 833 00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,680 Speaker 1: likely on average to read this ambiguous statement as being like, 834 00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:51,320 Speaker 1: what you're talking about about some kind of disease growth, 835 00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:55,279 Speaker 1: People with without anxiety or depression, or people who had 836 00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:58,719 Speaker 1: formerly had these conditions and are now considered cured or 837 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:01,880 Speaker 1: in remission, UH, we're more likely to interpret it as 838 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 1: measuring normal growth in childhood. He as in he measured 839 00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,640 Speaker 1: her height. Yeah. So um So, first of all, I 840 00:46:08,680 --> 00:46:10,440 Speaker 1: have to say, so, so the way that I answered 841 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:11,920 Speaker 1: it in the show here is also the way I 842 00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: responded to the text when I read it for me 843 00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: to so, and it is it is is entirely possible 844 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,200 Speaker 1: that that it comes from me having just a generally 845 00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:24,319 Speaker 1: anxious a depressed state. However, I do have questions about 846 00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,160 Speaker 1: to what degree this test phrase is weighted, because if 847 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 1: you simply add and development to the end of this 848 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,480 Speaker 1: test phrase, granted, it makes it more specific and it's 849 00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:35,879 Speaker 1: less ambiguous, but then but there also means there's no 850 00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 1: question if you say the doctor examined a little Emily's 851 00:46:40,320 --> 00:46:42,680 Speaker 1: growth in development, you're not going to say, oh, he 852 00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:45,000 Speaker 1: he was the doctor was looking at not only the 853 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:47,360 Speaker 1: weird thing on her neck, but also how she's developing. 854 00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:49,640 Speaker 1: I don't know. Oh, I feel like that would just 855 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: make it not ambiguous anymore. Yeah, it's true, but I 856 00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: also just it just feels it feels manipulative that that 857 00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: phrase to me. So I was looking around a little 858 00:46:59,560 --> 00:47:01,279 Speaker 1: bit about this to see if anybody else had any 859 00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,239 Speaker 1: problems with this. Uh, And it does seem as if 860 00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: the depression link negative interpretation bias findings are not without 861 00:47:08,200 --> 00:47:12,200 Speaker 1: at least some criticism. Uh. Claire Lawson and Colin McLeod 862 00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: bring it up in Depression in the Interpretation of Ambiguity 863 00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:19,440 Speaker 1: in and they pointed out that we could be talking 864 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:23,000 Speaker 1: about more about like a depression link response bias, reflecting 865 00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:27,600 Speaker 1: an elevated tendency for depressives to admit or endorse negatively 866 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 1: toned response options. So so under this model, it's possible 867 00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:34,879 Speaker 1: that depression maybe just is affecting more like what you're 868 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:37,480 Speaker 1: likely to say to other people rather than what you're 869 00:47:37,480 --> 00:47:40,640 Speaker 1: actually likely to represent internally. Yeah, and I guess in 870 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,600 Speaker 1: this we're getting into the complexity of of language and 871 00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:48,880 Speaker 1: social interaction on it, you know. Um. Also, others have 872 00:47:49,040 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: argued that interpretation biases and depression might be limited to 873 00:47:52,760 --> 00:47:57,359 Speaker 1: interpretations for the self. So unless you are little Emily, uh, 874 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:00,520 Speaker 1: there perhaps wouldn't be that much of an impact here. Um. 875 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: You know. So it's in a way, it's kind of 876 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:06,319 Speaker 1: like self deprecating humor, you know, like it's it's it's 877 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:08,960 Speaker 1: more about how you were feeling, and it's about the 878 00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:11,640 Speaker 1: the stuff in the world that's directly affecting you. Which 879 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:14,360 Speaker 1: makes sense because these emotional states are largely going to 880 00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 1: be connected to you or things of value to you, 881 00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,319 Speaker 1: not some random little girl in a you know an 882 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,719 Speaker 1: example phrase. Well, I wouldn't want to put too much 883 00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,280 Speaker 1: on that one example phrase. Maybe that's not a great example. 884 00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,200 Speaker 1: Well it's it's probably the better. I found a couple 885 00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:31,120 Speaker 1: of phrases as well that we're used in other studies, 886 00:48:31,120 --> 00:48:32,680 Speaker 1: but that one was still the best and one that's 887 00:48:32,680 --> 00:48:36,560 Speaker 1: frequently cited um elsewhere. I found a two thousand seven 888 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:40,040 Speaker 1: study published in Cognition and Emotion from Bison and Sears, 889 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 1: and they found no negative interpretive bias in their studies. 890 00:48:43,680 --> 00:48:46,240 Speaker 1: But that's not to say that an emotional state won't 891 00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:50,640 Speaker 1: just generally influence how information or stimuli is received. A 892 00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:53,600 Speaker 1: loving touch may startle you and spin you around in 893 00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:56,480 Speaker 1: a defensive stance, if you are primed for a hostile 894 00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,360 Speaker 1: physical encounter. Well yeah, I mean there there could be 895 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: very sale criticisms that I'm not aware of. I thought 896 00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 1: I understood like that, it's pretty well documented within humans 897 00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,959 Speaker 1: and animals that yeah, that like negative mood does tend 898 00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:15,120 Speaker 1: to bias perception. So when you encounter something ambiguous, if 899 00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:18,680 Speaker 1: you're feeling angry or sad, you're more likely to interpret 900 00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:22,040 Speaker 1: the ambiguous thing in a pessimistic way. Yeah, and I 901 00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,600 Speaker 1: think that that is definitely the case. I guess the 902 00:49:24,640 --> 00:49:26,160 Speaker 1: main thing I wanted to drive home is I didn't 903 00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,120 Speaker 1: want anybody to engage in this sort of exercise with 904 00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: us here and have the same knee jerk reaction that 905 00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:34,680 Speaker 1: we did and then immediately assume that that means that 906 00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:38,479 Speaker 1: they have an anxiety problem or or in a depressive state. Well, 907 00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,600 Speaker 1: I mean, even if you did react that way, and 908 00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:42,960 Speaker 1: even if the test is generally valid, it would just 909 00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:45,120 Speaker 1: be like one answer, you'd have to like do an 910 00:49:45,120 --> 00:49:47,359 Speaker 1: average of a bunch of different things to figure out 911 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,960 Speaker 1: what's you know, more likely the case. Yes, but you know, 912 00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:53,120 Speaker 1: we're humans and we tend to jump to conclusions and 913 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:57,160 Speaker 1: engage in I guess, um, what is the the X 914 00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:01,000 Speaker 1: Men personality test that we've factor that we've discussed in 915 00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:03,200 Speaker 1: the show before X Man, I don't remember this, well, 916 00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: the name is eluding me at the moment, but you know, 917 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,720 Speaker 1: when you you engage it, like the fortune cookie scenario 918 00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,840 Speaker 1: or the uh the astrological charts scenario where the future 919 00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,160 Speaker 1: is read and it's just a little piece of paper 920 00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,320 Speaker 1: telling you something random, but you immediately identify things about 921 00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,800 Speaker 1: yourself in that safe release the horror effects, yes, the 922 00:50:22,200 --> 00:50:27,440 Speaker 1: Barnum effect also, yes, yes, a little something for everybody. Well, 923 00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:31,040 Speaker 1: I think we we can certainly log possible criticisms of 924 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:33,839 Speaker 1: the judgment bias effect and keep them as an asterisk 925 00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:36,239 Speaker 1: over what we're about to read, which you know it 926 00:50:36,360 --> 00:50:38,640 Speaker 1: may in some ways be undercut by any weakness in 927 00:50:38,680 --> 00:50:42,320 Speaker 1: the inherent paradigm. But in some existing research on animals, 928 00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:46,040 Speaker 1: we people have tried to use judgment bias tests to 929 00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:50,320 Speaker 1: see if there is cognitive evidence of emotions and animals. 930 00:50:50,360 --> 00:50:52,719 Speaker 1: And you can do this in some animals, like if 931 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:56,360 Speaker 1: you take rats and you train them to distinguish between 932 00:50:56,400 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: two different tones, say a high pitch tone and a 933 00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:01,880 Speaker 1: low pitch tone, And then in the enclosure with the 934 00:51:02,000 --> 00:51:04,160 Speaker 1: rats is a lever that they can press. So if 935 00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,800 Speaker 1: they press the lever when they hear the high pitch tone, 936 00:51:06,840 --> 00:51:09,880 Speaker 1: they get a food pellet reward, but if they press 937 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:12,399 Speaker 1: the lever when they hear the low pitch tone, they 938 00:51:12,400 --> 00:51:15,960 Speaker 1: get an unpleasant blast of white noise. So they learn 939 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:17,920 Speaker 1: and they get good at telling the difference when the 940 00:51:17,960 --> 00:51:20,600 Speaker 1: high pitch tone plays, they are quick to press the 941 00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 1: lever and get the food reward. When the low pitch 942 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,479 Speaker 1: tone plays, they hang back. They either take a long 943 00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:27,600 Speaker 1: time to press the lever or they don't press it 944 00:51:27,640 --> 00:51:30,960 Speaker 1: at all. And it turns out you can manipulate something 945 00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,719 Speaker 1: like the rats mood or emotional state you know, asterisk 946 00:51:35,760 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: with all the caveats that are implied there to bias 947 00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,080 Speaker 1: their judgments about new ambiguous stimuli. So what happens when 948 00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: you play a tone in between the two tones that 949 00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 1: the rats have been trained on? The studies show that, say, 950 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:52,440 Speaker 1: if you tilt the rats housing up at an angle, 951 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,839 Speaker 1: or if you wet the rats betting or introduce an 952 00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:00,600 Speaker 1: unfamiliar rat to the group, when the ambiguous tone plays, 953 00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,520 Speaker 1: the rats will be much more avoidant of the lever 954 00:52:03,600 --> 00:52:07,400 Speaker 1: in response to this this ambiguous stimuli than rats in 955 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,799 Speaker 1: a control condition with normal stable housing conditions, which are 956 00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:14,279 Speaker 1: more likely to interpret the ambiguous tone optimistically and run 957 00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: and press the lever. So what this looks like again, 958 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: And of course you know we could be overreading into it, 959 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,440 Speaker 1: but it looks like if you put rats in something 960 00:52:22,560 --> 00:52:26,719 Speaker 1: like a bad emotional state by making them uncomfortable and uneasy, 961 00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,920 Speaker 1: they're going to interpret unfamiliar information in a pessimistic way, 962 00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:35,279 Speaker 1: whereas quote, happy rats are more likely to interpret unfamiliar 963 00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,760 Speaker 1: information in an optimistic way. So it's an emotional state 964 00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: based on experience that is preparing the rat to deal 965 00:52:42,920 --> 00:52:49,359 Speaker 1: with um, with with incoming stimuli or or incoming environmental situations. Yeah, 966 00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,640 Speaker 1: I mean it looks like a quote bad mood puts 967 00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,960 Speaker 1: the animal in a kind of defensive posture, or it's 968 00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: less likely to explore an experiment and it's less likely 969 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,080 Speaker 1: to to take a risk. It's more just kind of 970 00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,880 Speaker 1: hunkered down, right, Yeah, So it's you know, it's like um. 971 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,040 Speaker 1: And again, I think this helps to demystify the human 972 00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:11,400 Speaker 1: experience of some of these emotions, even though these emotions 973 00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:15,160 Speaker 1: could arguably more complex when you bring in human language 974 00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,600 Speaker 1: and so forth. But if every time in the past 975 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,360 Speaker 1: that I've gone to a specific fast food restaurant I 976 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,200 Speaker 1: have I've gotten ill, then in the future when I 977 00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:26,600 Speaker 1: go back, I am going to be on guard against 978 00:53:26,800 --> 00:53:29,680 Speaker 1: incoming illness of course. Yeah, I mean that's like classical 979 00:53:29,680 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: conditioning one totally. So I mean, really that's that's what 980 00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,239 Speaker 1: we're talking about here. Um, you know, and I do 981 00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,319 Speaker 1: think it does serve to demystify something like fear, but 982 00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,000 Speaker 1: really any of the emotions, even the you know, the 983 00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:45,600 Speaker 1: loftier emotions like uh, like you know, like love, uh, 984 00:53:45,600 --> 00:53:47,879 Speaker 1: that you know, we need to to to take bring 985 00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:49,840 Speaker 1: them to bring them down a few steps anyway, so 986 00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:53,960 Speaker 1: that we can attribute these things to animals as well. Yeah. Now, obviously, 987 00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:57,239 Speaker 1: I think, as you and I have discussed before, it's 988 00:53:57,320 --> 00:54:01,000 Speaker 1: more difficult to study some emotion than others. So you'll 989 00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: find more studies on on invertebrates. We're about to get 990 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:09,200 Speaker 1: into an invertebrate example on things like aversion and anxiety 991 00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,160 Speaker 1: and fear than you will in invertebrate love. Though there 992 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:14,920 Speaker 1: are some with invertebrate positive emotions that I think are 993 00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:17,480 Speaker 1: very interesting. We'll get to one and just it's generally 994 00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: easier to take an animal out of its natural habitat 995 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:24,560 Speaker 1: and study it by making it feel anxious and afraid 996 00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,279 Speaker 1: as opposed to making it feel at home. I mean, really, 997 00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,960 Speaker 1: that's one of one of the problems and some of 998 00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,960 Speaker 1: these studies that have been conducted with um specifically, I 999 00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:37,439 Speaker 1: guess I'm thinking of rats and addiction, right, like are 1000 00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:41,480 Speaker 1: you are you testing for the response to these substances 1001 00:54:41,600 --> 00:54:46,480 Speaker 1: under you know, ideal sort of ambiguous circumstances, or is 1002 00:54:46,520 --> 00:54:49,120 Speaker 1: it within the world of a rat prison that you've 1003 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:53,200 Speaker 1: created in a room somewhere, yeah, or is it unnatural 1004 00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:55,480 Speaker 1: within the rat prison. But the results are useful to 1005 00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:57,759 Speaker 1: us anyway, because the rats and the rat prison are 1006 00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,439 Speaker 1: kind of analogous to the way humans live. Now yeah, yeah, 1007 00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,520 Speaker 1: it's like I said, it's it gets complicated. But anyway, 1008 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:07,080 Speaker 1: to to move to invertebrates with the idea of the 1009 00:55:07,120 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 1: judgment bias test, At least three studies so far have 1010 00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: shown possible evidence of the judgment bias effect in bees. Bees. 1011 00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:17,640 Speaker 1: You know, this is there's another example of an animal 1012 00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,160 Speaker 1: that we generally don't we don't attribute a lot of 1013 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,960 Speaker 1: personality to or certainly emotional states. But they are they're 1014 00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,600 Speaker 1: complicated organisms. They're they're they're fascinating creatures. Yes, well, let's 1015 00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:30,880 Speaker 1: take a look and see what we think. So the 1016 00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,680 Speaker 1: authors here site two studies Bates and at All in 1017 00:55:33,719 --> 00:55:36,280 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven and Schloons at All in two thousand 1018 00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:40,120 Speaker 1: seventeen that studied this effect the judgment bias effect in 1019 00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: honey bees or APIs mallifera. So bees were trained on 1020 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,799 Speaker 1: two different kinds of chemical odors that they sensed with 1021 00:55:46,840 --> 00:55:50,799 Speaker 1: their antennae, which were associated with two different sugar solutions 1022 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:54,200 Speaker 1: that they could extend their probosis to taste. So when 1023 00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:57,520 Speaker 1: odor A was sensed, that was associated with a sweet 1024 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,000 Speaker 1: sugar solution, and when odor B you was since, that 1025 00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:04,399 Speaker 1: was associated with a bitter quinine solution, which the bees 1026 00:56:04,480 --> 00:56:07,640 Speaker 1: did not like tasting. So if you train them on this, right, 1027 00:56:07,760 --> 00:56:10,319 Speaker 1: once they smell odor A, they're going to be like, oh, boy, 1028 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:12,880 Speaker 1: sugars coming and that you know, that's the condition response. 1029 00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 1: When they smell odor bee, they're going to be like, oh, 1030 00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:17,319 Speaker 1: that's the bitter quinine and I don't want any of it. 1031 00:56:17,360 --> 00:56:20,239 Speaker 1: They get conditioned like this. And then the manipulation came 1032 00:56:20,600 --> 00:56:24,000 Speaker 1: when the researchers would go and shake the bees housing 1033 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:28,080 Speaker 1: vigorously for sixty seconds. And this was supposed to simulate 1034 00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:30,960 Speaker 1: a natural attack on the colony by a predator such 1035 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:33,960 Speaker 1: as a honey badger and to quote here. After the 1036 00:56:34,000 --> 00:56:39,440 Speaker 1: shaking manipulation, bees were tested with ambiguous odor mixtures intermediate 1037 00:56:39,600 --> 00:56:43,520 Speaker 1: between the two mixtures used for training in both studies. 1038 00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,719 Speaker 1: Honey bee subjected to the shaking were less likely to 1039 00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:50,560 Speaker 1: respond to the ambiguous odor mixture closest in ratio to 1040 00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:54,920 Speaker 1: the oder mixture associated with quinine during training, suggesting that 1041 00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:59,480 Speaker 1: shaking induces a negative cognitive bias to ambiguous odor cues. 1042 00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:02,680 Speaker 1: So when the the odor was somewhere between the other 1043 00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,239 Speaker 1: two odors chemically, especially when it was closer to the 1044 00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,319 Speaker 1: bad odor, the bees that had been shaken were more 1045 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,520 Speaker 1: likely to say I don't want any of that. Again, 1046 00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:14,920 Speaker 1: this looks like a pessimistic bias. Yeah, clearly, and it 1047 00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,400 Speaker 1: seems like a clear case. Uh. Now, the authors do 1048 00:57:17,480 --> 00:57:20,320 Speaker 1: offer an important caveat here. They say quote however, it 1049 00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:23,680 Speaker 1: has been argued that shaking may cause bees to become 1050 00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:30,040 Speaker 1: better discriminators. Shaking increased hemolymph concentrations of octopamine, which can 1051 00:57:30,080 --> 00:57:34,520 Speaker 1: modulate sensory function. And hemolymph again is like insect blood 1052 00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:38,320 Speaker 1: than of blood. They have hemio lymph, this other circulatory fluid, 1053 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:42,160 Speaker 1: and so it increased this uh, this thing called octopamine, 1054 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:44,560 Speaker 1: which is similar I believe to nora adrenaline and in 1055 00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,800 Speaker 1: mammals and humans. Uh So, remember that the shaking really 1056 00:57:47,800 --> 00:57:50,280 Speaker 1: seemed to make a difference when the odor was ambiguous 1057 00:57:50,320 --> 00:57:54,160 Speaker 1: but closer to the odor associated with the bitter food. 1058 00:57:54,520 --> 00:57:57,480 Speaker 1: So maybe shaken bees are just better at sensing that 1059 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:01,320 Speaker 1: closeness to the bad outcome because is of non emotional 1060 00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:05,120 Speaker 1: physiological reasons. That's also possible. But this isn't the only 1061 00:58:05,160 --> 00:58:08,760 Speaker 1: test of judgment bias effect in bees period. All In 1062 00:58:10,080 --> 00:58:13,400 Speaker 1: also studied the same thing, but in the opposite direction, 1063 00:58:13,800 --> 00:58:17,960 Speaker 1: optimistic bias created by pleasure or happiness, or at least 1064 00:58:18,000 --> 00:58:21,080 Speaker 1: what you might call an analog of pleasure or happiness 1065 00:58:21,120 --> 00:58:24,240 Speaker 1: in bumble bees. So again there was a similar type 1066 00:58:24,240 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: of setup. They would train bumble bees to respond to 1067 00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 1: two possible visual cues. There would be a green card 1068 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,040 Speaker 1: on the left that has a cup of sugar water 1069 00:58:33,160 --> 00:58:36,280 Speaker 1: solution underneath it. This is the reward cue, and then 1070 00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:39,040 Speaker 1: a blue card on the right that has a cup 1071 00:58:39,040 --> 00:58:41,880 Speaker 1: of regular water underneath it, and this is the control que. 1072 00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,440 Speaker 1: Trained bumble bees would learn to go straight to the 1073 00:58:45,440 --> 00:58:47,680 Speaker 1: green card on the left when it was present to 1074 00:58:47,720 --> 00:58:49,760 Speaker 1: get the sugar they you know, they don't bother with 1075 00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,400 Speaker 1: the blue card on the right. Now, what happens when 1076 00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:56,000 Speaker 1: you put a bluish greenish card in the middle of 1077 00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,840 Speaker 1: the two positions, Well, the study showed that if you 1078 00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:02,560 Speaker 1: give the bees a little bit of sugar reward before 1079 00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:07,160 Speaker 1: the test, they approached the ambiguous new stimulus the blue 1080 00:59:07,160 --> 00:59:10,360 Speaker 1: green card in the middle position faster than if you 1081 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:14,000 Speaker 1: don't give them any sugar. And so the authors hearsay quote. 1082 00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:18,320 Speaker 1: Control experiments showed that after consumption of the small unexpected reward, 1083 00:59:18,720 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: bees did not increase their flight speed and we're not 1084 00:59:21,440 --> 00:59:24,640 Speaker 1: more likely to explore novel stimuli, suggesting that the small 1085 00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,919 Speaker 1: reward did not simply increase the bees general activity or exploration, 1086 00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:32,280 Speaker 1: but was indeed due to changes in their decision making 1087 00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:38,439 Speaker 1: processes under ambiguity, thus resembling optimism in humans. Uh So, again, 1088 00:59:38,440 --> 00:59:41,600 Speaker 1: there could be something wrong here that we're that we're missing, 1089 00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:44,000 Speaker 1: but at least it on the surface, it looks like 1090 00:59:44,520 --> 00:59:49,680 Speaker 1: the bees are just expecting better outcomes with ambiguous possibilities 1091 00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,040 Speaker 1: when they've had a little bit of sugary treats. Right. So, 1092 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:55,320 Speaker 1: I think one of the big takeoffs from this is 1093 00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:57,640 Speaker 1: that it is going you have to think of emotion 1094 00:59:57,760 --> 01:00:00,320 Speaker 1: is being tied to how we navigate the war world, 1095 01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:02,560 Speaker 1: and we are not the only organism that has to 1096 01:00:02,640 --> 01:00:08,240 Speaker 1: navigate a world of changing circumstances. And and because clearly 1097 01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:09,920 Speaker 1: the bee has to do that as well, and it 1098 01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:13,960 Speaker 1: has similar abilities that result or our and our and 1099 01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:17,040 Speaker 1: or are caused by emotional states. Yeah, but I think 1100 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:18,920 Speaker 1: we've got to call it for this first episode, and 1101 01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:21,479 Speaker 1: we can come back and explore some more research along 1102 01:00:21,520 --> 01:00:24,560 Speaker 1: these lines next time. In the meantime, if you want 1103 01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:26,760 Speaker 1: to check out other episodes of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, 1104 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,280 Speaker 1: you can find us anywhere you get a podcast. These days, 1105 01:00:30,360 --> 01:00:32,760 Speaker 1: we don't even know all the places you get podcasts. Uh, 1106 01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:34,680 Speaker 1: we know a few of them. 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