1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: On May second, nineteen eighty three, Clyde Coleman was fatally 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,319 Speaker 1: shot at his home in southwest Philadelphia. Multiple eyewitnesses claimed 3 00:00:10,360 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: to have seen three black men fleeing the scene, the 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: back of one of their shirts covered in blood. While 5 00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: one witness recognized the blood soak the sailor from a 6 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: local bar, another witness said that he looked like a 7 00:00:21,720 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: man who had visited with mister Coleman just two days prior. Eventually, 8 00:00:26,280 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: this witness identified one of the victim's friends, Mary Walker, 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,559 Speaker 1: from a photograph. Even though the other witnesses were not 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: convinced that the police had the right man, the jury was. 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: But this is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to wrongful conviction. 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I really hope you're in the mood to hear a 13 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:01,920 Speaker 1: remarkable story about an amazing man. Well, we have two 14 00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: amazing men on the show today. Actually, the person who 15 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:09,760 Speaker 1: lived through a nightmare that spent almost four decades of 16 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: wrongful incarceration thirty eight years plus, Larry Walker, is here 17 00:01:14,280 --> 00:01:17,200 Speaker 1: with us. Larry, first of all, I'm sorry you're here 18 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: because of what you went through to get here, but 19 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm very honored to have you on the show. 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for just taking time out to interview. 21 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,920 Speaker 1: Me and with him is a guy I can't believe 22 00:01:26,920 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: we haven't had on the show before, a luminary in 23 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 1: the world of righting wrongs in the criminal justice world. 24 00:01:34,760 --> 00:01:38,000 Speaker 1: Paul Castellerro, who is the legal director of Centurion Ministry, 25 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: is a name that I'm sure you're familiar with, the 26 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:44,520 Speaker 1: very first innocence organization in the United States. Paul, I'm 27 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: really really honored to humble to have you here on 28 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: the show today. 29 00:01:47,600 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 3: Well, it's a great pleasure to be here. 30 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: And this incredible story was in what was certainly almost 31 00:01:53,960 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 1: the epicenter of wrongful convictions. And I'm talking about Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, 32 00:01:58,720 --> 00:02:02,320 Speaker 1: especially back in the eighties, but unfortunately not just in 33 00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,559 Speaker 1: the eighties. And this was a case that well, I'll 34 00:02:05,600 --> 00:02:09,200 Speaker 1: just say this, it was so bad that even the 35 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: trial DA said that it was the thinnest homicide case 36 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:15,920 Speaker 1: he ever tried. That was a quote. So before we 37 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 1: get into all the details of the crime itself and 38 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:23,600 Speaker 1: of course of the process that led to this horrendous injustice, Larry, 39 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: let's go back. What was your life like growing up? 40 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: Did you grow up in Philly? 41 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: Yes, I grew up in Southwest Philly. Ten siblings, five 42 00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: brothers and five sisters. Close knit family. I was into sports, 43 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:40,080 Speaker 2: go to church services, and active to my community. I 44 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 2: had my children in an early age, and I was 45 00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,400 Speaker 2: basically just trying to be a father to my children. 46 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: Twenty two years old when you went away. Your kids 47 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: were basically toddlers when you went to prison, right, I 48 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: mean three and five years old? 49 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 2: Yes? Correct? Yes, my daughter was three and my son 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: was five. 51 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: And how old were they when you came home? 52 00:03:01,320 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 2: My daughter was forty and my son was forty two. 53 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: That's just I mean, that really puts it in perspective. 54 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 2: The memories, the good times that I had when I 55 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: was home with my children before this happened is what 56 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 2: basically kept me a lot. It was times we went 57 00:03:17,919 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: to the zoo and a lot of birthdays I remember 58 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 2: with them. That kept me going through autumn thirty eight 59 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 2: years while I was incarcerated. 60 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 1: You know, I was hardened when I read that the 61 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: mother of your kids, they all stuck close to you 62 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: throughout this ordeal. 63 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:38,360 Speaker 2: Right, yes, correct. Their mother was very supportive even to 64 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 2: this day. She was the one that when I wanted 65 00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,560 Speaker 2: to give up, she kept helping me to encourage me 66 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: to go on, you know, and she was the one 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,360 Speaker 2: that was coming up in the mountains, you know, the 68 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: van services, getting the kids up early in the morning. 69 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,600 Speaker 2: She put them through Catholic school, you know, she helped 70 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 2: them with, you know, the education that there are successful 71 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 2: adults today. She was the glue that kept us together. 72 00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: Well, I'm happy you had her, even though I wish 73 00:04:04,440 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: she never would have had to show that kind of strength. 74 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: So I want to get to how you were taken 75 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 1: away from them, which started way back on May second, 76 00:04:15,120 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three, when a friend of yours named Clyde 77 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:21,719 Speaker 1: Coleman was fatally shot. And let's turn to Paul for 78 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 1: the details of this crime for which all accounts always 79 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:28,400 Speaker 1: pointed to three assailants, not. 80 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,160 Speaker 3: One, and he obviously was not any of them. And 81 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 3: they had really very good evidence of who the perpetrator 82 00:04:37,839 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: was that they said was Larry in this incident. And 83 00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 3: the case develops where fourteen or fifteen year old young 84 00:04:44,839 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 3: man is on his way home. He lived in an 85 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 3: attached house right next to where the victim lived. As 86 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 3: the young man had approached the house, he saw two 87 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 3: guys that were lingering in the area. The victim and 88 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: this young man, they have a joint walkway that they shared. 89 00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 3: As he's walking up, the door opens to the victim's 90 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 3: house and there's an unknown guy standing in the doorway. 91 00:05:05,760 --> 00:05:07,919 Speaker 3: This young man he sees the victim was lying on 92 00:05:07,960 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: the floor, and the victim gets up from the floor 93 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,239 Speaker 3: and he comes up behind the guy standing in the doorway, 94 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:16,680 Speaker 3: which they say is Larry, and he attacks him, and 95 00:05:16,720 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: the victim yells to the young man to run, run, run, 96 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 3: And it turns out the victim has been shot and 97 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,040 Speaker 3: is bleeding profusely, and when he grabs the perpetrator, who 98 00:05:27,080 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 3: they say was Larry, from behind, leaving massive amounts of 99 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 3: blood apparently on the guy's back shirt that eventually the 100 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: perpetrator is able to throw off the victim and he 101 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,359 Speaker 3: takes off running. The young man said the guy he 102 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 3: saw in the doorway look like a guy he had 103 00:05:45,839 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 3: seen a couple of days earlier who was over the 104 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 3: house visiting with the victim. 105 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 1: And so the police had interviewed this young man, Victor Hopkins, 106 00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,239 Speaker 1: as well as his mother, Emma Ellis, who had also 107 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: seen the assailants, three black men who had just run off. 108 00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 3: The cops, and they go around the neighborhood looking. A 109 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: young woman a couple of blocks away says she saw 110 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 3: three guys going down the street and one guy was 111 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 3: holding a gun and he had blood on the back 112 00:06:13,000 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 3: of his shirt. And I know that guy. He hangs 113 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 3: out in a bar where I've been. The police totally 114 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 3: and completely ignored it. 115 00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:25,960 Speaker 2: I also would like to add that one of the 116 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 2: three men that was fleeing from the scene of crime 117 00:06:28,080 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 2: had a cast on his hand. They should have went 118 00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 2: to maybe the nearest hospital in the community. 119 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: But they never explored any of those other avenues. 120 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:39,719 Speaker 3: They made no effort none whatsoever. 121 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,520 Speaker 1: Instead, they focused solely on the description from the fifteen 122 00:06:43,640 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: year old kid, Victor Hopkins, that the purp looked like 123 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: someone who he had seen at mister Coleman's two days earlier. 124 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:56,640 Speaker 3: And that person, it turns out, was Larry. Larry knew 125 00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:59,159 Speaker 3: the victim. They were friends, and Larry had been over 126 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 3: there visiting him on a Saturday afternoon. This happened on 127 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 3: a Monday, so he said it looked like him, and 128 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 3: so the police try to figure out who is the 129 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: person over there that Saturday that this young man says 130 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,320 Speaker 3: he looked like, and they identified Larry's photo and boom. 131 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 3: Larry was in the case. 132 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 1: And our audience has heard many times we've talked about 133 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:25,640 Speaker 1: the incredibly unreliable practice of identification procedures. So, Larry, how 134 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: did you first learn about this? This is a friend 135 00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: of yours that got killed. So that's a terrible piece 136 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 1: of news to get and then to be wrongfully accused 137 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:39,400 Speaker 1: and ultimately tried and convicted. How did you first find 138 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: out about this murder? 139 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 2: Jason? I basically found out through word on the street. 140 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 2: People was talking about it. I heard it from a friend. 141 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: When did the cops first come and talk to you 142 00:07:50,640 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: or did they arrest you? 143 00:07:51,720 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 2: The incident happened on the second, It was about two 144 00:07:54,440 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 2: weeks after that round at thirteenth. They came to my home. 145 00:07:58,360 --> 00:08:00,480 Speaker 1: Did they look for the bloody shirt? Did they look 146 00:08:00,520 --> 00:08:01,200 Speaker 1: for the gun? 147 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:03,920 Speaker 2: Yes, they came with a warrant. They searched my home. 148 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 3: They found nothing, no evidence whatsoever they would indicate any 149 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: kind of connection to this crime or is there any 150 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 3: other crime? 151 00:08:12,480 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: So that didn't deter them at all. They went ahead 152 00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: and took you downtown and they interrogated you. How long 153 00:08:18,440 --> 00:08:20,960 Speaker 1: did the interrogation last? Did you have an attorney? 154 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: Didn't have an attorney. I just knew that I was innocent. 155 00:08:24,280 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: I told him constantly over that I had nothing to 156 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 2: do with it. 157 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 3: He was fully cooperative with the police. He waived his 158 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: rights to, you know, not speak to them. And whether 159 00:08:33,920 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: they're doing this they know about this other person who's 160 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: identifying the guy that is in a bar that matches 161 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 3: the description to a t of the perpetrator. It is 162 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: just mind boggling that they could persist in going after 163 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 3: him or at the same time not investigate who this 164 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 3: woman says is the person. 165 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: I was taken to I think fifty fifth and pounds 166 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 2: and I was locked up. I never saw the streets ever. 167 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: Since nineteen eighty three to twenty and twenty one. 168 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 2: My family paid for a paid attorney for me, and 169 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,600 Speaker 2: he didn't interview the witnesses. He didn't interview me before 170 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 2: I went to trial. 171 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 3: It's kind of frightening how you could represent somebody on 172 00:09:19,480 --> 00:09:22,599 Speaker 3: a murder trial and not interview the basic witnesses in 173 00:09:22,679 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 3: the case. He didn't interview the police officers, he didn't 174 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 3: interview the young man who was identifying Larry. He had 175 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,640 Speaker 3: the report of the police officer interviewing this woman, and 176 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,520 Speaker 3: what the woman said about seeing these guys running away 177 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 3: from the scene and never spoke to the woman. And 178 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:42,559 Speaker 3: then once the trial begins, he tells the judge, well, 179 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,520 Speaker 3: there's this witness, and we don't know where she is 180 00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 3: or anything about her. He does get the judge involved, 181 00:09:48,520 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 3: and the judge says to the prosecutor, we'd better find 182 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 3: this witness. There's another witness, which was the young man's mother. 183 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 3: Initially she identifies Larry also, but when you get the 184 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 3: trial she says, no, I'm not sure that this is 185 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 3: the person, and so she takes away her identification. But 186 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 3: he didn't interview any of these people. 187 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: So going in to trial they had at least they 188 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,679 Speaker 1: thought they had two white witnesses identifying Larry, Victor Hopkins 189 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: and his mom, Emma Ellis. But then on the first 190 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: day of trial, with the mom recanting, it goes down 191 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: to just one, the young teenage kid. 192 00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 3: And incidentally, the young man when he testifies, when he 193 00:10:27,840 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 3: asks can you identify the person you saw at Larry's 194 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 3: sitting at the defense table, he basically says worth the 195 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 3: de fact, well do I have to be sure. 196 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ, So even he was unsure, and then on 197 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 1: the second day of trial. The third witness, the woman 198 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:47,520 Speaker 1: who had seen the three men fleeing the scene and 199 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: who knew one of them from a local bar. She 200 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: was subpoened and did come in to testify. 201 00:10:53,960 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 3: The night before the second day, the police go to 202 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:02,640 Speaker 3: the hospital where this young woman was with her fiance 203 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,600 Speaker 3: who had been shot and paralyzed from the waist down, 204 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 3: and they subpoena her and tell her she's got to 205 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 3: be in court. The next day. 206 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 2: She came and testifying and said that I wasn't one 207 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,959 Speaker 2: of the men, so I was very hopeful that the 208 00:11:15,120 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: jewry took that into account. 209 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 3: By the defense counsel because he doesn't know the facts 210 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 3: of the case, where he hasn't even read the police report, 211 00:11:23,240 --> 00:11:26,800 Speaker 3: he doesn't elicits the fact that the guy that saw 212 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 3: running had blood on the back of his shirt and 213 00:11:29,720 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 3: that I know him, which is kind of critical. I 214 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 3: know who he was from a bar. It never gets 215 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 3: elicited from her, and that's the testimony, And then the 216 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 3: prosecution doesn't ask her any questions and then brings on 217 00:11:42,600 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 3: one of the investigating cops to say, after he learned 218 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 3: about her existence, he tried to find her, but he 219 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 3: couldn't find her. According to this cop, there's no report 220 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 3: or anything of him ever doing anything to find her. 221 00:11:55,679 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: And then the cop says, when we went to the 222 00:11:57,880 --> 00:12:02,800 Speaker 3: hospital to subpoena her, she didnied who she was. She's unreliable, 223 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 3: you know, she can't be trusted, that kind of stuff. 224 00:12:05,880 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 3: And that's the evidence they present. 225 00:12:07,840 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: And you didn't know at the time that this investigator 226 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,080 Speaker 1: hadn't tried to find her, and the jury had no 227 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: reason to doubt him. But something came out years later 228 00:12:17,000 --> 00:12:18,920 Speaker 1: about that testimony, which we're going to get to it 229 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:22,400 Speaker 1: just a bit. But as far as his trial, the 230 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:26,840 Speaker 1: jury was left with two witnesses casting doubt on Larry's guilt, 231 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 1: the investigator casting doubt on one of those witnesses, and 232 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 1: then ultimately the jury sided with the young man who 233 00:12:34,080 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: made a sort of a hesitant could we call it 234 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: in court identification of Larry. 235 00:12:40,080 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 2: I was really hoping that, you know, that it would 236 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 2: have been in my favor. I couldn't believe that they 237 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,280 Speaker 2: came back with that verdict. I had a life sentence. 238 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,000 Speaker 2: It was like a nightmare. It was like an out 239 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:55,760 Speaker 2: of body experience. I was numbed, and it's just it 240 00:12:55,800 --> 00:13:11,720 Speaker 2: was unreal. When I first came into prison. I went 241 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: down to Greatest Ford. It was like a new world 242 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 2: to me. I had never been incarcerated before. I heard 243 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 2: rumors and stuff about prison. You go walk down the block, 244 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,880 Speaker 2: they be yelling and so forth and all. Just knowing 245 00:13:24,960 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 2: that you're around actual murderers, I was very nervous and scared. 246 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 2: You know. A couple old heads told me, if you 247 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:34,880 Speaker 2: stay in your lane and you just mind your business, 248 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: you'll be all right. And that's what I basically did 249 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 2: for them thirty eight years. You know, I try not 250 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 2: to get involved in certain things that I seen. I 251 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:47,360 Speaker 2: witness some murders one time with a guy with a shank, 252 00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: and you know, just human nature. You want to help someone, 253 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,360 Speaker 2: you know, you want to let them come in your cell. 254 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,120 Speaker 2: But you know, people tell you that you can't get 255 00:13:56,160 --> 00:13:58,560 Speaker 2: involved in them type of things because the people that 256 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,360 Speaker 2: are looking for that person, they would come after you. 257 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: That sympathy that I have for people, you can't show 258 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 2: them type of emotions when you're in prison you ask 259 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:12,400 Speaker 2: them for trouble. It's completely opposite to that human nature 260 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: and you just basically have to try to hold on 261 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 2: to just a little bit of it to keep you 262 00:14:20,080 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 2: from going insane. I lost both of my parents. While 263 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 2: since I've been down, my mother and my father always 264 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,440 Speaker 2: believed in my innocent. My mother was coming up to 265 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: see me all the many years, and to her health 266 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 2: prevented her from coming. And even when her and my 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,240 Speaker 2: father was called home, me being a lifer, I wasn't 268 00:14:40,280 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 2: allowed to go to the funeral. That was one of 269 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 2: my most darkest days. Not being there for them was 270 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: really some of my roughest days. By being incarcerated for 271 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:51,800 Speaker 2: something I didn't do. 272 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 3: One of the things rationing about his survival for thirty 273 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 3: eight years is so much of it is I think 274 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 3: he had the benefit of fail He had this course, 275 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:05,120 Speaker 3: this family of his, they never abandoned him. They knew 276 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 3: he was innocent. They stuck by him through everything thirty 277 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 3: eight years. When you think about. 278 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 2: It, that's what kept me going, Paul, my daughter and 279 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 2: my son. I had family. They supported me all them 280 00:15:16,320 --> 00:15:18,800 Speaker 2: thirty eight years, coming up in the mountains. That's what 281 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 2: kept me going. Besides my faith in Christ. You know 282 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 2: when I had bad days in prisons, that's what kept 283 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 2: me going and supported my family and my faith. Instead 284 00:15:27,240 --> 00:15:30,560 Speaker 2: of being pessimistic about life, I'm more optimistic. I had 285 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: faith that one of the courts would, you know, get 286 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 2: this right, that will correct the wrong that was done 287 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: to me. 288 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,640 Speaker 1: And so your appeals raised a number of issues. Chief 289 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 1: among them, of course, was an effective assistance of counsel. 290 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 3: And Larry had read this lawyery, you know, or a 291 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 3: lawyer who did nothing but took the retainer and pocketed it. 292 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 3: And that was it. 293 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: And despite that, the appeals were repeatedly denied, and without 294 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:57,640 Speaker 1: knowledge of what had been hidden by the state about 295 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 1: the third witness who was so badly the disparaged by 296 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:05,320 Speaker 1: the investigator, trial is unreliable. The years just continued to 297 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: tick off and roll on by. 298 00:16:07,360 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: After over so many years and times going from one 299 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 2: court to another court, my faith started to you know, waiver. 300 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 2: But I really believed that the truth was going to 301 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 2: come out, that one of the courts would roll in 302 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 2: my favorite to overturn my life sentence. 303 00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 3: You know. 304 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: I try to reach out to different state representatives. I 305 00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 2: wrote Temple Innocent Project, I wrote Dressul Innocent Projects, but 306 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 2: no one basically really listened to my cry until I 307 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 2: wrote a Centurn Ministry. 308 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: And Centurion ministries took over around twenty fourteen or fifteen 309 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: before Paul came on as their legal director, and at 310 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: that time an investigator named Alan Maymon was hard at 311 00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: work reinvestigating the case. 312 00:16:49,920 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 2: I like to speak a little bit about Alan and 313 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,320 Speaker 2: how he tried to get my records. He went down 314 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: the city Hall with my daughter and my son trying 315 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: to get these records to the so forth. For many years. 316 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,200 Speaker 2: It wasn't just you know, going down here one time. 317 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:08,120 Speaker 1: So Alan Maymon and your family were just getting stonewalled 318 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 1: by the previous DA Seth Williams. That name man, That 319 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: was a dirty, dirty guy man. He ended up in 320 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: prison himself. Meanwhile, they were reinterviewing witnesses. One of them 321 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: gave them the name of a more likely alternative suspect 322 00:17:23,920 --> 00:17:26,199 Speaker 1: with a rap sheet a mile long, who had been 323 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 1: convicted of an eerily similar murder to mister Colvin's. 324 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 3: And this is before Larry Krashner became the district attorney. 325 00:17:33,840 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 3: They were kind of faking that they had a conviction 326 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 3: integrity unit in the Philadelphia DA's office. And when Centurion 327 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 3: had some evidence that some guy indicated he was involved 328 00:17:45,040 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 3: in the murder this woman had received a statement from him, 329 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 3: you know who, they sent out to interview the woman. 330 00:17:51,320 --> 00:17:54,680 Speaker 3: They sent out the son of the investigator in Larry's 331 00:17:54,720 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 3: case to investigate whether his father's investigation of the murder 332 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 3: was incompetent. 333 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: The sun I've heard everything. I've never heard that beare 334 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:03,879 Speaker 1: ye know. 335 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was just it's mind boggling when you look 336 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:06,360 Speaker 3: at it. 337 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,640 Speaker 1: But fortunately Larry Krasner was elected DA and your team 338 00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:13,360 Speaker 1: was finally given access to those police files in twenty nineteen. 339 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 2: I just want to say a little bit about Larry Krasner. 340 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: I just want to thank him for as creating the 341 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 2: integrity Unit and giving the information over to Sinturnity. That's 342 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:24,360 Speaker 2: where I found out that the prosecutor, as far as 343 00:18:24,359 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 2: the letter that he had wrote on my behalf is 344 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,119 Speaker 2: referring to that my case was the thinnest case that 345 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 2: he ever prosecuted. 346 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, this was from a twenty twelve and a twenty 347 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 1: fifteen letter that your trial prosecutor, Richard P. Myers wrote 348 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:40,439 Speaker 1: to then DA Seth Williams. He continued saying, quote, it 349 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: is the only homicide case that I tried in which 350 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: I had a doubt regarding the guilt of the accused 351 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:49,040 Speaker 1: end quote. But this was just the beginning with Larry's files. 352 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 1: The witness who had seen the three men fleeing and 353 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: testified at trial that Larry was not one of the assailants, 354 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: if you remember. The lead detective god understand and said 355 00:18:58,280 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 1: that she was first that she was unfindable, and then 356 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:05,160 Speaker 1: when they did find her, she was uncooperative and unreliable. 357 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 3: The prosecution didn't disclose the fact that this woman who 358 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 3: witnessed these three men running away from the scene was 359 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:17,040 Speaker 3: a witness and was cooperating with the police in another 360 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 3: murder investigation involving her boyfriend who had been shot along 361 00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 3: with another young man who had been killed, and her 362 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 3: boyfriend was in the hospital paralyzed from the waist down, 363 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:31,120 Speaker 3: and she was cooperating with the police in that investigation, 364 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,520 Speaker 3: and they present her as this unreliable person. You know. 365 00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 3: The cop actually says he tried to find her. Meanwhile, 366 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,960 Speaker 3: this woman's in the police station in the same homicide division, 367 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 3: given interviews to this officer's colleagues. Isn't this other murder case? 368 00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 3: And he gets on the standing Larry's trial and says, 369 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 3: she was uncooperative. We couldn't find her, you know, she's unreliable. 370 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: Strangely enough, she seemed to have been easily locatable and 371 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:01,920 Speaker 1: reliable when she was being helpful to the state, but 372 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 1: she quickly became a target for character smears and other 373 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 1: dirty tricks when she began to testify to actually clear 374 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: a man who was innocent. 375 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 3: And the tragic part of the whole case, on another 376 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 3: level of many tragic components to it, is this young woman, 377 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 3: based on her cooperation in that other case, got murdered 378 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,399 Speaker 3: about three months after Larry's trial, so she was always 379 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,879 Speaker 3: unavailable to us and to anybody trying to reinvestigate this 380 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 3: case because she had been killed previously. The Lord of 381 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 3: Pennsylvania was if anything appeared in a public record, you're 382 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:56,639 Speaker 3: responsible for it. And so if it appeared in a 383 00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,880 Speaker 3: public record in nineteen ninety two, well that's when there's 384 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 3: that's where the limitations began to run. 385 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: This is an awful and an often ignored element a 386 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: post conviction for a lot of cases in Pennsylvania. If 387 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: something is a matter of public record and therefore findable, 388 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: the burden is and was on you and your attorney 389 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 1: to have found it before being procedurally barred from using it, 390 00:21:20,040 --> 00:21:23,240 Speaker 1: which means only six months from the date it was 391 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 1: entered into the public record. That's all you got. 392 00:21:25,720 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 3: The Conviction Integrity Unit. They felt that in Pennsylvania that 393 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 3: the course would say, you should have found the fact 394 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 3: that this woman who witnessed these three men running away 395 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:39,159 Speaker 3: from the scene was cooperating with the police in another 396 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: murder investigation, that the course would say, you should have 397 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 3: found this evidence earlier. Meanwhile, there had been a number 398 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 3: of cases that come down from the United States Court 399 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 3: of Appeals for the Third Circuit that basically said, no, 400 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 3: you can't hold somebody accountable for something that's in the 401 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 3: public record that they have no ideas in the public record. 402 00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: So where was it part of the public record? Where 403 00:21:58,720 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 1: were you expected to. 404 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,640 Speaker 3: Affect There's a kernel in a case. It's a published 405 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 3: case and it refers to her and being killed. But 406 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 3: the case has no application to anything, you know, no 407 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 3: legal principle. It wasn't anything your cite for president for 408 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,639 Speaker 3: any kind of legal issue. And they were saying, you 409 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 3: should have found this case has learned that you know 410 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 3: she was cooperating in this other case. You should have 411 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 3: found out earlier that we suppressed evidence. The fact that 412 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 3: you have some evidence now too bad. He stays in 413 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 3: jail because you could have found it earlier. 414 00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,959 Speaker 1: You'd think a conviction integrity and one of the reasons 415 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,480 Speaker 1: they would be created would be the circumvent these type 416 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,480 Speaker 1: of very stringent legal standards. So anyway, how was this 417 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: ultimately resolved. 418 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,520 Speaker 3: They wouldn't vacate the conviction. The only way we were 419 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 3: getting Larry out was is if he took a plea 420 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 3: to a reduced charge. So that's what we did. We 421 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 3: had to take a plee to a reduced charge, and 422 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 3: he walked out based on under reduced charge. The idea 423 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 3: that we somehow should have been able to find this 424 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: evidence of their perjury at his trial, and because we 425 00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 3: didn't find it out until when they gave us access 426 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 3: to the records, too bad. Take the plea, you can 427 00:23:11,920 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 3: walk out, or we can litigate the issue of whether 428 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 3: or not you should have found this earlier. And of 429 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 3: course if we litigate it, you know where Larry is prison, Well, 430 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,119 Speaker 3: we litigate it. So Larry had his joy said, but 431 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:26,880 Speaker 3: fifty eight to either come out to a family he's 432 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:29,600 Speaker 3: been deprived of and a life he's been deprived of 433 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 3: for thirty eight years, or take a plea. I go 434 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:34,879 Speaker 3: to Larry and I speak to Larry about this, and 435 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,000 Speaker 3: Larry says to me, Paul, could you guarantee me I'll 436 00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 3: be free in a year if we continue to fight 437 00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,479 Speaker 3: because I'm innocent? And I said, Larry, you know I 438 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:47,360 Speaker 3: can't guarantee you what a court will do in a year. 439 00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 3: I mean we might not even be, you know, heard 440 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 3: in the year. 441 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,280 Speaker 1: Look, I'm a big fan of Larry Krasner. I'd like 442 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:55,880 Speaker 1: to clone that guy and put him in offices all 443 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:59,440 Speaker 1: over the country. Nobody's perfect, though, this outcome was far 444 00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 1: from perfect. But nonetheless, Larry, I think you know, Look, 445 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: no one can follow you from making that decision. What 446 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: was it like to walk out into the air, into 447 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: the arms of your loved ones? What did you do first? 448 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: Did you go get something to eat? Did you hug 449 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:14,760 Speaker 1: a tree? Like? 450 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 2: What did you do? Well? Jason? When I first heard that, 451 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: I was, you know, found out that I was truly 452 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,639 Speaker 2: going home after thirty eight years or something I didn't 453 00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: do in prison. You know, I was overwhelmed. 454 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 3: I was excited standing outside the prison waiting for him 455 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:31,639 Speaker 3: to come out. There was must have been what Larry 456 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,680 Speaker 3: fifty people and all of his family. It was just 457 00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 3: the kind of you know, jump for joy. Moment dimnity 458 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 3: emerged from behind the doors. 459 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 2: My family had a gathering for me at a hall. 460 00:24:42,880 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 2: I went to go eat, and I had relatives, my 461 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:49,600 Speaker 2: sisters and brothers and cousins and so forth, and all His. 462 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 3: Daughter Sharena arranged with the local community center to cater 463 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 3: a little celebration lunch. It was wonderful and I. 464 00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,280 Speaker 2: Went out to go eat with Paul and his white 465 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:03,920 Speaker 2: was there. I had a big stake for my first mail. 466 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 3: It was really cool. 467 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: Larry. We're all thrilled that you're free, that you're home, 468 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 1: that you're here with us today. I know that there'll 469 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 1: be people that are listening that would like to support 470 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: you as well. You have a go fundme that people 471 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:21,560 Speaker 1: might be able to help you because the state obviously 472 00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: has never given you any compensation and they're not going to. 473 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: So this is the part of the show that I 474 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 1: always look forward to. It's called closing arguments, and it 475 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,719 Speaker 1: works like this. I thank each of you again for 476 00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 1: taking your time to be here today and share this 477 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: remarkable story. And then I'm going to turn my microphone off, 478 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:42,920 Speaker 1: beat my headphones on, and kick back in my chair 479 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: and just listen to anything else that you guys want 480 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:46,680 Speaker 1: to share. 481 00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:49,159 Speaker 3: I guess what I want to share is that, you know, 482 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 3: Larry is an extraordinary human being, and I think he's 483 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,560 Speaker 3: blessed by the fact that he has a wonderful family. 484 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 3: I don't want to be negative, but these wrongful conviction 485 00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:01,879 Speaker 3: cases where people can out of jail after spending thirty 486 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 3: eight years or twenty four years or whatever period of 487 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,920 Speaker 3: time thirty years, it's not a victory. It's a sad 488 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:14,199 Speaker 3: comment on a system that consistently and persistently makes the 489 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 3: same mistakes over and over and over and really does 490 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 3: little to correct them. You know. Yet, we have a 491 00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 3: federal system that is hostile to reviewing state courts convictions. 492 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 3: And that wasn't the case, you know, pre nineteen ninety 493 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,920 Speaker 3: six and the passage of the Anti Terrorism Affected Death 494 00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 3: Penalty Act, and state courts have created barriers to relitigating 495 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 3: cases and to bringing cases of innocence forward. People have 496 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 3: to understand that there are lots and lots of innocent 497 00:26:48,840 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 3: people behind bars that are prevented from bringing claims based 498 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 3: on time constraints and in access to evidence that they 499 00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 3: should be able to access. But the courts say, no, 500 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 3: you don't have a right through it, and the problems 501 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 3: continue to this day, over and over, and Larry's case 502 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,919 Speaker 3: is really illustrative of exactly that. And it's just a 503 00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 3: frightening kind of system. And you have to understand the system. 504 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 3: It's dependent upon human beings, and human beings have to 505 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 3: act in a certain way in order for fairness to occur, 506 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 3: and when they don't do what they should do, you 507 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 3: wind up with wrongful conditions. 508 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 2: Jason, I just would like to encourage of the family 509 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,480 Speaker 2: that may be going through something similar like my case, 510 00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: that family support is very important for people that's incarcerated 511 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: for something they didn't do. I just like to encourage 512 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 2: other families to support they loved ones. And I also 513 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 2: like to encourage the listeners to write other organizations that 514 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 2: take cases on like minds. If it happened to me, 515 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 2: I believe that it can happen to other people. I 516 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 2: just like to thank some turn in ministry for believing 517 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 2: in me and fighting for me over these many years 518 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: and bringing me home to my family and my loved ones. Jason, 519 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 2: once again, not to repeat myself, to thank you for 520 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 2: taking his time out for you know, interviewing me and 521 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:14,960 Speaker 2: getting my story out. It means a lot to me 522 00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 2: and just want to say go equals. 523 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen 524 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:28,760 Speaker 1: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one 525 00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: week early by subscribing to Lava for Good Plus on 526 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our production team Connor Hall, 527 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:38,400 Speaker 1: Annie Chelsea, and Kathleen Fink, as well as my fellow 528 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Cleibern. The 529 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:44,600 Speaker 1: music in this production was supplied by three time OSCAR 530 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,000 Speaker 1: nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us across 531 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: all social media platforms at Lava for Good and at 532 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,000 Speaker 1: Wrong for Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram 533 00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: at It's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is the production of 534 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 1: Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signals Opening number 535 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,959 Speaker 1: one