WEBVTT - #559 Jason Flom with Ryan Ferguson 0:00:02.560 --> 0:00:05.840 I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:10.000 I was naive enough to believe that I would be 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.040 able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence, 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:15.600 that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't 0:00:15.600 --> 0:00:17.200 be going to prison because I was a good person. 0:00:17.200 --> 0:00:18.200 I hadn't do anything wrong. 0:00:19.320 --> 0:00:21.080 In the back of your mind, you say, well, when 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:23.640 we go to a hearing or we go to court, 0:00:23.760 --> 0:00:26.600 the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.480 knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:33.199 from the lower courts all the way up to the 0:00:33.240 --> 0:00:34.520 United States Supreme Court. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:41.280 You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really, 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:43.159 in that moment, unchecked authority. 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.280 Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them 0:00:47.320 --> 0:00:50.400 on TV, because it may just be a dirty da 0:00:50.600 --> 0:00:52.280 that is trying to rise upward. 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:16.840 This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.760 Jason Flamm. Today's guest is a friend of mine. He's 0:01:20.800 --> 0:01:25.840 a remarkable human and an inspiration to everybody who knows him. 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:29.000 And I will embarrass you, but without further ado, let 0:01:29.000 --> 0:01:32.280 me introduce you Ryan Ferguson. At just nineteen years old, 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:35.800 Ryan Ferguson was wrongly convicted of murder. He served nearly 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:36.959 a decade in prison. 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.320 Ferguson was convicted for the brutal murder of beloved journalist 0:01:40.360 --> 0:01:43.040 ken Heidholt in two thousand and one. The crime scene 0:01:43.040 --> 0:01:46.360 outside the newspaper where he worked littered with physical evidence 0:01:46.440 --> 0:01:49.840 bloody footprints, fingerprints, and even hair, but none of it 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:54.080 matched Ryan. Again and again, he denied knowing anything about 0:01:54.120 --> 0:01:57.400 the murder. Charles Erickson, a childhood friend of Ryan's, came 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.040 forward two years after the murder, claiming he had dreamlike 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.480 visions that he and Ryan committed the crime together. When 0:02:04.520 --> 0:02:07.800 police led Ericson to believe Ferguson would testify against him, 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:10.840 Erickson said he felt pressure to confess to the murder, 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:14.440 thinking he'd otherwise face the death. Comedy and a second witness, 0:02:14.520 --> 0:02:18.200 janitor Jerry Trump, identified Ferguson as one of two men 0:02:18.240 --> 0:02:21.400 he saw in the parking lot immediately after the murder. 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.040 In the years after that two thousand and five conviction, 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:28.919 both of those crucial prosecution witnesses recant in their testimony. 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:33.720 On his last appeal attempt, Ryan's conviction was overturned. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.800 After a year and a half more behind Barns. Finally, 0:02:36.840 --> 0:02:40.480 and at Pellet Court overturned that ruling, finding quote newly 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:45.480 discovered evidence clearly and convincingly establishes that he's actually innocent. 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:49.400 And then the Missouri Attorney General's office announced it will 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.960 not retry or pursue further action against Ryan Ferguson at 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:57.320 this time, meaning Ryan Ferguson was a free man. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:02:59.560 Welcome to the show. 0:03:00.160 --> 0:03:02.079 Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be on 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.600 your podcast. I remember when you when you launched it 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:05.760 the launch party. 0:03:05.760 --> 0:03:07.760 Man, just being there was amazing, And I want to 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.520 say before we start, just thank you so much for 0:03:10.560 --> 0:03:13.520 what you do for everyone, including myself. You know, you 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:16.680 were part of my case before I got out, and uh, 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:18.280 and that gave me a lot of hope and I 0:03:18.320 --> 0:03:21.120 appreciate that. And then you've been very supportive to myself 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:23.959 and everyone that I know in the innocence community since 0:03:23.960 --> 0:03:25.920 I've been out, and it's just amazing to see what 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:29.120 you do for everyone. So thank you first and foremost, 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:30.680 and let's get this thing started. 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:33.239 Oh well, I don't know, I gotta take a breath 0:03:33.280 --> 0:03:35.800 after that, but thank you for saying so. I uh, 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:38.920 you know, I forget these things because you know, there's 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:41.440 just so much to do every day. Because this is 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:45.480 such a an epidemic in this country. You couldn't have 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.200 seen this coming a million miles away. We'll talk about that, right. 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:51.800 So you're you're from Missouri, right. 0:03:51.800 --> 0:03:54.400 Yep, from Missouri. I was born born in Australia, raised 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:54.920 in Missouri. 0:03:55.160 --> 0:03:57.000 So you grew up in Missouri. And what was that like? 0:03:57.040 --> 0:03:58.720 I mean, you had you had a happy childhood. 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:01.240 I had a great childhood. Grew up in Columbia, is 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.560 right in the middle of Missouri. University of Missouri, college town, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:08.960 great town, a lot of culture, education, a lot to do, 0:04:09.480 --> 0:04:12.040 and so for me, it was a town of opportunity. 0:04:12.240 --> 0:04:15.720 I had great education. My parents, they took me all 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:19.080 over the world. They traveled with me constantly, and I 0:04:19.080 --> 0:04:21.400 got to learn a lot about people from being in 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:22.760 that town and from traveling and everything else. 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.760 So my childhood couldn't have been any better. 0:04:26.360 --> 0:04:28.440 A close family, very close family. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:31.719 We were all together my whole life, and you know, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.240 it was it was like the picture book. 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.000 Family, right, you know, mom, dad's sister. 0:04:36.160 --> 0:04:38.560 We had a little dog, and you know, just a 0:04:38.600 --> 0:04:41.520 little middle class existence and everyone was happy. 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:43.159 Everything Everything was going good. 0:04:43.000 --> 0:04:46.600 And I played sports in high school and had a 0:04:46.640 --> 0:04:49.039 lot of friends and everything, and then went to college, 0:04:49.200 --> 0:04:52.640 and at that point everything was still very normal. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:58.400 Everything was very normal until everything went completely haywire. And 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.520 you hadn't had any experience with police or arrests or 0:05:02.560 --> 0:05:04.679 authority in any way to this point. 0:05:04.560 --> 0:05:08.520 Right, Well, I had never been accused of any crimes, 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.360 for sure when I was in high school. You know, 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:12.840 it's a college town, so of course there's going to 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:15.160 be police that show up at parties. People get mips 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.440 and things of that nature. No one that I knew 0:05:17.480 --> 0:05:19.719 had ever been arrested for anything that would have put 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.560 them in jail. I had never met anyone that had 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.120 spent the night in jail. You know, some kids got 0:05:25.160 --> 0:05:28.240 in trouble for small things like like in most towns, 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:31.679 but the fact of being arrested for a real crime 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:34.960 was it didn't even exist in my world. 0:05:35.560 --> 0:05:41.120 I was so moved and angry and just upset in general. 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.440 After seeing the forty eight hours piece, which was the 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:46.159 first exposure I ever had to your case. Some of 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:48.720 the things that stuck out for me about that piece 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.200 were the idea that this was a cold case. Right 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:56.200 It was the murder of a sports reporter and he 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:58.880 had been beaten to death outside of his car. 0:05:58.920 --> 0:06:01.559 I guess right, yeah, outside of his work. 0:06:02.560 --> 0:06:07.520 And two and a half years later, no leads, nothing 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:11.120 going on, right, One of the local TV stations ran 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:13.320 one of those things that they run time to time 0:06:13.360 --> 0:06:16.960 where they had like a composite sketch. Right, did you 0:06:17.000 --> 0:06:18.800 even know about this murder when it happened? Was it 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:20.240 big news in the area. 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:22.920 Yeah, it's a small town. There's about one hundred thousand people. 0:06:23.400 --> 0:06:25.960 I do recall hearing about it. You know, anything that 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:29.320 happens in that town, like a murder, you hear about 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.960 it was its big news because they don't happen that often. 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:34.920 That was the extent of my knowledge on you know, 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.359 I mean young in high school and it's like, whoa, 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:39.080 somebody was murdered on howe any night. 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:39.960 That's kind of creepy. 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:43.000 So let's go back to that. Because the sports reporter, 0:06:43.080 --> 0:06:45.599 ken Heidholt was murdered in a very brutal manner. He 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.560 was beaten to death with a tire iron or something 0:06:48.720 --> 0:06:50.159 like that. I don't you know if they even know 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.480 to this day, but it was a heavy metal object 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:58.600 of some sort and when that Crimesoppers piece ran, Charles 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.520 Rickson was affected by it in some way. Right. He 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.840 saw this on TV. He was with his friends and 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:08.880 he had some sort of a vision or something came 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.960 over him which made him say to his friends, Hey, 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:14.560 you know, I mean I kind of look like that guy. 0:07:14.600 --> 0:07:16.240 I wonder if it could have been, if I could 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.400 have been involved in so or some crazy thing like that. 0:07:20.280 --> 0:07:21.960 And then one of the friends called the cops. 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:22.200 Right. 0:07:22.280 --> 0:07:24.320 And this is an interesting thing about your case, Ryan, 0:07:24.360 --> 0:07:27.760 because we've covered false confessions on this show, and false 0:07:27.800 --> 0:07:32.160 confessions are so terribly troubling. In your case, you were 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.640 the victim of false confession, but you didn't confess. That's 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:38.800 what's crazy about this, Right, You were implicated because somebody 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:43.880 else who also didn't commit the crime, actually thought that 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.200 maybe he did for some reason. And the brain is 0:07:47.240 --> 0:07:51.720 a strange things to memory. Who knows what came over him, right. 0:07:51.760 --> 0:07:54.400 And one of the quotes that always stuck out to 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:57.560 me is something that Charles ericson my co defendant, the 0:07:57.600 --> 0:08:00.920 person who had these images, who ultimately testified against me, 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:04.720 something that he said, and this is verbatim. He says, 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.440 if I did it, Ryan must have been with me. 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:10.920 And based on that, I mean, that is what starts 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:13.080 this whole thing. Based on that, I lost ten years 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:15.240 of my life. I was put into prison for a 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:16.320 crime I had nothing to do with. 0:08:16.840 --> 0:08:19.320 Was there any physical evidence of any kind connecting to 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:19.800 this case. 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:23.800 There was no physical evidence connecting me or Charles Erickson. 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.960 But the important fact is there is a lot. 0:08:26.800 --> 0:08:28.240 Of physical evidence there. 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.360 You know, there's a bloody footprint, there's a hair in 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.800 the victim's hand, there's a paper with a palm print. 0:08:35.000 --> 0:08:36.160 There are things. 0:08:35.840 --> 0:08:40.360 That, even to this day, could be tested to determine 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:44.800 guilt of another individual. And the police have chosen not 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.800 to look into those things. And here's what's really really 0:08:47.840 --> 0:08:51.000 frustrating is when I got out, the public was enraged. 0:08:51.360 --> 0:08:54.040 They were frustrated with what the police had done, and 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:55.840 they said, we want to know what really happened in 0:08:55.840 --> 0:08:58.240 this case, because clearly it wasn't Ryan, it wasn't Ericson, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:08:59.920 the kid who is still to this day in prison. 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:01.960 And so the police said, we're gonna we're gonna open 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:03.559 this case, We're going to look back into it, We're 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:06.560 going to see what happened here. Well, three months later, 0:09:06.640 --> 0:09:09.520 you know, in a very low key way. They're just 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.680 kind of like, well, you know, we got somebody in 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:14.280 prison for it right now, so we're not gonna we're 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:15.120 not gonna investigate it. 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:16.280 That's not gonna happen. 0:09:16.240 --> 0:09:19.040 Right, So the net effect if you're a resident of 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:22.280 Columbia or Missouri or the United States, because we don't 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:26.680 know where this guy is. This guy who is a dangerous, 0:09:27.080 --> 0:09:30.400 violent killer is out there walking amongst us. I mean, 0:09:30.440 --> 0:09:32.719 it is an outrage that they have this evidence and 0:09:32.760 --> 0:09:36.000 they won't test it. It even for me, like, my head's going, 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:39.920 what first of all, and let's talk about this right 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:43.440 jail because this is something that people don't focus on enough. 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:46.800 You were in jail for a long time awaiting trial. 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:49.240 They set bail at twenty million dollars. 0:09:48.960 --> 0:09:50.720 Right, twenty million dollars. Yeah, it was it was a 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.480 jo you know. That is a in my mind, that's 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.120 how publicity's the reality. 0:09:55.120 --> 0:09:58.000 The way our legal system works is if you're arrested 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.800 for a very serious crime, like a murder, they can 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:03.360 choose not to give you a bail, and they do 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:05.240 that often, or they can give you a million dollar 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:09.040 bail whatever. Right bail is meant so that you should 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:11.839 have the opportunity to raise those funds and get out 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:13.960 so you can fight your case because you have not 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.760 been proven guilty. At that point, I had no bail 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.240 for eight months. I went into a bail hearing and 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.240 the judge out of nowhere says twenty million dollars. And 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.280 so that is a different thing than saying no bail. 0:10:26.360 --> 0:10:29.000 That is a political statement. That is her saying that 0:10:29.559 --> 0:10:33.200 I endorse this case as a judge, and they're supposed 0:10:33.240 --> 0:10:36.400 to be independent. I endorse this case. I'm with the prosecutor, 0:10:36.600 --> 0:10:38.040 and we're going to take this kid and put him 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:39.800 in prison for the rest of his life. And that 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.120 is not something a judge should do. Judge Ellen Roper 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:45.160 made a huge mistake there. I think she should be 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:48.880 health accountable for that. And that is the politics we 0:10:48.920 --> 0:10:51.880 see with our criminal legal system in these people's lives, 0:10:51.960 --> 0:10:54.120 you know, I mean, this is my life and that 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:56.439 judge is playing a game with it. And that is 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:59.720 incredibly scary to see, especially at the age of nineteen 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:02.000 or twenty, and you're just like, how is this our 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:04.880 legal system? How is this innocent until proven guilty? 0:11:04.920 --> 0:11:05.640 Because it's not. 0:11:05.920 --> 0:11:08.280 So Yeah, and I hadn't even thought about that, because 0:11:08.360 --> 0:11:11.040 to my knowledge, your bail was the highest bail in 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:12.880 the history of the state of Missouri. 0:11:13.320 --> 0:11:15.200 Oh, I think it's the highest in the history of 0:11:15.200 --> 0:11:18.720 the country in terms of the charge. Right, you have 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:22.960 a charge of first agree murder, second degree robbery. There's 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.800 no evidence I had never been arrested or convicted of 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.640 any crime, and I'm getting a twenty million dollar bail. 0:11:29.840 --> 0:11:32.240 Here's a guy sitting next to me in the same pod, 0:11:32.679 --> 0:11:35.400 in the same county with a first agree murder charge 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.880 and he is a repeat offender. In his bail for 0:11:39.120 --> 0:11:43.120 pretty much the same charge was five hundred thousand dollars. 0:11:43.320 --> 0:11:45.400 Wow. So yeah, and I hadn't even thought about it. 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:49.720 But you're absolutely right. In fact, by setting that bail 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.280 of twenty million and that going out in the press 0:11:53.320 --> 0:11:57.480 as it does, basically it's poisoning the jury pool because 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.079 it's saying, hey, you know what, we can say that 0:12:00.200 --> 0:12:04.000 or this guy to be extremely dangerous, so dangerous that 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.040 we're going to set the bail so high that even 0:12:06.040 --> 0:12:09.400 if its family's rich, and your family wasn't poor, but 0:12:09.440 --> 0:12:14.600 they weren't rich, So even if the family is one 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.800 of the wealthiest families around, they're still not gonna be 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:19.040 able to post it. So it's a wink wink, like 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:21.520 we're going to keep this guy around because we know 0:12:21.600 --> 0:12:25.040 he's guilty. And that's absolutely really it's. 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:27.680 Makes me sick. 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:32.839 Okay, so you go to trial, you by now had 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:34.160 been in jail for how long? 0:12:34.840 --> 0:12:37.800 Yeah, I've been in jail for about eighteen months at 0:12:37.800 --> 0:12:39.920 that point a year and a half. Trial was actually 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.520 set and I don't think this is a coincidence. On 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.280 my twenty first birthday, it was Monday through Friday, and 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.079 my birthday for the twenty first birthday was Wednesday, So 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:51.800 I'll never never forget that. And by the way, I 0:12:51.800 --> 0:12:53.800 want to mention county jail, and I think this is 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:54.520 overlooked a lot. 0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:56.120 I think it's really interesting for people to hear. 0:12:56.160 --> 0:12:58.600 But when you're innocent until proven guilty and you're in 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:02.000 the county jail, it is far worse than being in prison. 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:04.959 Most guys I know, they're happy to go to prison 0:13:04.960 --> 0:13:06.560 after being in the country jet. It is a very, 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:10.280 very poor existence. My first year in the county jail, 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:15.400 I went outside, literally outside two times. And that is 0:13:15.640 --> 0:13:18.040 innocent until proven because I don't understand how that can be. 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:20.480 And I went outside every time that I could, but 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:24.440 you're literally sleep deprived. The lights never go off, you 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:27.760 never go outside, you have no human contact with anyone 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:32.040 outside of prison. So it's a horrible existence. But for 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:35.280 those eighteen months before you go to trial, they're basically 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:37.240 sucking the life out of you. And then what you're 0:13:37.280 --> 0:13:40.000 seeing in trial is a shell of a human being. 0:13:40.200 --> 0:13:41.920 So when you watch forty eight Hours or Dayline or 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:44.720 any other show and you see these people sitting there 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:48.320 on trial, I mean, they probably look emaciated, they probably 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:50.800 look strange, they probably act weird, and that's because they've 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.839 been in this horrific environment for so long that I mean, 0:13:56.000 --> 0:13:59.280 they have no emotions left, they've spent them all, and 0:13:58.640 --> 0:14:02.160 they haven't been eating right, they have no nutrition. So 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.520 just take that into consideration when you're looking at somebody 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:07.880 who's going through this situation. You know, you're sitting in 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.920 a courtroom full of these people who are staring at you. 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:11.640 You're in a fish bowl and you're the only fish, 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:14.440 and people are going to do like this satanic fish 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:17.280 or something. And not to mention in the way you 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:18.920 were treated the last eighteen months. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.680 No, I'm glad you brought that up, Ryan, and when 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.040 you described that to me, and it's not like you're 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.480 comparing jail to a minimum security prison. You were in 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.840 a maximum security prison, right, And jails are chaotic, I mean, 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:33.120 among other things. And this is something that's really so 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:36.280 horrible to think about. But they're never cleaned, right, They're 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.080 always occupied and they're never cleaned. So you're in a 0:14:39.800 --> 0:14:45.520 extremely toxic, poisonous environment in so many different ways. And 0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:47.320 you're in a pressure cooker, right because you were going 0:14:47.400 --> 0:14:48.840 to sell with how many other guys. 0:14:48.600 --> 0:14:51.240 Eight guys, twenty four to seven and you know, yeah, 0:14:51.320 --> 0:14:53.200 you're right, it is a pressure cooker. 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:54.560 I mean, you have these people. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:56.720 Every single one of those people's lives is on the line. 0:14:56.760 --> 0:14:58.480 They don't know what's going to happen next. They don't 0:14:58.480 --> 0:14:59.480 know if they're going to go to prison for the 0:14:59.520 --> 0:15:00.960 rest of the life. Some of them don't know if 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:02.120 they're gonna get the death penalty. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:03.640 Some might get out tomorrow. 0:15:04.000 --> 0:15:06.160 And so you have all these different thoughts and feelings 0:15:06.200 --> 0:15:08.520 and emotions going on. You know, people are losing their 0:15:08.520 --> 0:15:10.040 families or they can't see their kids. 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:10.640 Whatever it might be. 0:15:11.480 --> 0:15:13.600 And you have that on top of the fact that 0:15:13.800 --> 0:15:17.320 you can't eat right. You can't get any exercise. Really, 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:21.520 you can't be with loved ones. There's no outlet, right, 0:15:21.560 --> 0:15:25.200 The only outlet is towards another person, and so people 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:26.960 end up fighting and getting hurt. 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:28.920 And you know, you don't want to be in that situation. 0:15:28.960 --> 0:15:32.200 You don't want to be forced to fight somebody for survival. 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:34.080 But that's what they make you do. That's what they 0:15:34.360 --> 0:15:36.520 put you in a situation where there's no other options. 0:15:36.640 --> 0:15:38.400 And then when it happens, they want to charge you 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:40.480 with another crime, like you did something wrong. 0:15:40.760 --> 0:15:43.320 Put me in the cell with my girlfriend for a year. 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:45.720 We're gonna, you know, hate each other by the end 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:47.920 of it, right, You can't do that, and they'd put 0:15:47.920 --> 0:15:51.040 you in there with these people who are violent criminals. 0:15:51.480 --> 0:15:53.680 You don't know each other, you don't care about each other. 0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:55.720 Yet you have to be there twenty four to seven 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:58.760 with all that going on, all those emotions, all those feelings, 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.600 and that loss of your liberty and privilege. So it 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.400 is a frightening place. 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.600 The claustrophobic element of it alone, right, because you're never 0:16:08.680 --> 0:16:11.200 getting out. You're not getting out of cell, right, I mean, 0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:12.920 what you've got to get out for a shower, no. 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:16.080 Well, the thing is it's like a pod and it's 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.160 very small. It's smaller than a one story home, and 0:16:20.640 --> 0:16:22.760 the showers in there, and you have a TV in 0:16:22.800 --> 0:16:25.280 there on a phone, and eight other guys, and it 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:30.320 is The claustrophobic feeling is so intense, because even if 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:32.000 even if you've been there for three months and you 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:33.800 start to feel like you know the guys and you 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:36.160 don't feel like you're in danger, that day you'll wake 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.480 up and you realize I can't get up and walk 0:16:38.520 --> 0:16:40.320 out of this thing today. I can't get up and 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.680 walk out of here tomorrow or next month or next year. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.280 Like I can't go anywhere but this little house. Like 0:16:45.280 --> 0:16:47.920 I can't even step foot outside see the sunlight. I 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.200 can't look out a window because there are no windows. 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.480 Like this is it. I can't do anything. 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:56.000 I have no freedom, I have no choices, I have nothing, 0:16:56.240 --> 0:16:59.360 no responsibility because I can't even go work if I 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.320 want to work, I can't go grab a book if 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:01.960 I want to grab a buck. 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:02.880 I can't do anything. 0:17:03.000 --> 0:17:04.080 There's no books in there. 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:08.719 There are some books, but they don't come by very often. Fortunately, 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:10.760 after a while I was able to get some books. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:12.919 My father was able to bring me some, but you know, 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.479 they change the policies, and so for a while, they 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:17.879 took out all the legal books. You know, I thought, 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:19.760 at least if I got to sit here at twenty 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:21.440 four to seven, I'll be able to read legal books. 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:23.600 It's my constitutional right to be able to defend myself. 0:17:23.880 --> 0:17:25.200 But they took out all the legal books, so I 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:27.200 couldn't even read that. And you know, I'm here, I'm 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.280 nineteen years old. I want to prove my innocence and 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:32.080 fight my case, and they don't even give you the 0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:33.040 resources to do that. 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:34.520 And I top of everything else, you're going to the 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:36.639 bathroom on top of each other. Where do you sleep? 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:38.640 And how do you change clothes? How does that even 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:39.400 work well? 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:42.720 And where I was at it was a violent felon tank, 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.879 so it has its benefits and his down sides. Of course, 0:17:47.160 --> 0:17:50.400 in many tanks it's just an open bay, so everybody's 0:17:50.400 --> 0:17:51.960 out there together. And yeah, I mean, you just got 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:54.119 to get naked in front of people or whatever. You 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.200 poop in front of people, you pee in front of people, everything, 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.240 and so that is one existence in a violent fell 0:18:00.320 --> 0:18:02.280 in tank. They put you in your own cell because 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.760 they don't want people sleeping in an environment where there 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.280 are people who are accused of murder, right, so you 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:10.200 don't want to be asleep, and then some guy snaps 0:18:10.240 --> 0:18:11.679 out and comes over there and tries to murder you. 0:18:11.720 --> 0:18:14.679 Like that's a liability, I suppose, So they give you 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:16.920 your own cell in the violent Fellon tank. 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.760 That's why there's eight people. There's eight cells. So that 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:20.800 is the. 0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:23.879 One, I guess good thing about being in a violent 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.680 Pealent tank. The bad thing is that they're violent felons, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.240 so it's a lot more dangerous when those doors are open. 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:32.120 Those doors are open about eighteen hours a day. 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.960 And you had reason to understand that the system was 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:40.800 not designed to work for justice and that as an 0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:43.000 innocent man, you had a real chance of ending up 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:47.200 in prison for a long long time. So you devised 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:50.359 a workout program, right in order to be able to 0:18:50.359 --> 0:18:53.159 defend yourself. And if you can't obviously see him on 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.720 the radio, but if you see Ryan now he is 0:18:57.400 --> 0:18:59.840 he looks like a bodybuilder. So how did you do 0:18:59.920 --> 0:19:03.199 that without any kind of access to gym equipment or 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.120 weights or anything else? And how did that work for you? 0:19:05.680 --> 0:19:08.600