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Speaker 1: I fell into the hands of a corrupt detective.

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Speaker 2: I was naive enough to believe that I would be

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Speaker 2: able to just present all of my proof of actual innocence,

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Speaker 2: that they would investigate adequately, and so that I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be going to prison because I was a good person.

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Speaker 2: I hadn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 1: In the back of your mind, you say, well, when

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Speaker 1: we go to a hearing or we go to court,

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Speaker 1: the truth will come out. The prosecution from day one

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Speaker 1: knew I was innocent and let forced testimony go uncorrected

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Speaker 1: from the lower courts all the way up to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court.

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Speaker 3: You have someone with a badge with ultimate and really,

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Speaker 3: in that moment, unchecked authority.

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Speaker 2: Don't presume that people are guilty when you see them

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Speaker 2: on TV, because it may just be a dirty da

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Speaker 2: that is trying to rise upward.

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Speaker 4: This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 4: Jason Flamm. Today's guest is a friend of mine. He's

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Speaker 4: a remarkable human and an inspiration to everybody who knows him.

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Speaker 4: And I will embarrass you, but without further ado, let

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Speaker 4: me introduce you Ryan Ferguson. At just nineteen years old,

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Speaker 4: Ryan Ferguson was wrongly convicted of murder. He served nearly

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Speaker 4: a decade in prison.

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Speaker 5: Ferguson was convicted for the brutal murder of beloved journalist

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Speaker 5: ken Heidholt in two thousand and one. The crime scene

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Speaker 5: outside the newspaper where he worked littered with physical evidence

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Speaker 5: bloody footprints, fingerprints, and even hair, but none of it

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Speaker 5: matched Ryan. Again and again, he denied knowing anything about

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Speaker 5: the murder. Charles Erickson, a childhood friend of Ryan's, came

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Speaker 5: forward two years after the murder, claiming he had dreamlike

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Speaker 5: visions that he and Ryan committed the crime together. When

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Speaker 5: police led Ericson to believe Ferguson would testify against him,

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Speaker 5: Erickson said he felt pressure to confess to the murder,

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Speaker 5: thinking he'd otherwise face the death. Comedy and a second witness,

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Speaker 5: janitor Jerry Trump, identified Ferguson as one of two men

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Speaker 5: he saw in the parking lot immediately after the murder.

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Speaker 5: In the years after that two thousand and five conviction,

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Speaker 5: both of those crucial prosecution witnesses recant in their testimony.

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Speaker 4: On his last appeal attempt, Ryan's conviction was overturned.

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Speaker 5: After a year and a half more behind Barns. Finally,

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Speaker 5: and at Pellet Court overturned that ruling, finding quote newly

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Speaker 5: discovered evidence clearly and convincingly establishes that he's actually innocent.

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Speaker 5: And then the Missouri Attorney General's office announced it will

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Speaker 5: not retry or pursue further action against Ryan Ferguson at

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Speaker 5: this time, meaning Ryan Ferguson was a free man.

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Speaker 4: Welcome to the show.

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Speaker 6: Thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be on

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Speaker 6: your podcast. I remember when you when you launched it

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Speaker 6: the launch party.

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Speaker 3: Man, just being there was amazing, And I want to

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Speaker 3: say before we start, just thank you so much for

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Speaker 3: what you do for everyone, including myself. You know, you

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Speaker 3: were part of my case before I got out, and uh,

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Speaker 3: and that gave me a lot of hope and I

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Speaker 3: appreciate that. And then you've been very supportive to myself

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Speaker 3: and everyone that I know in the innocence community since

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Speaker 3: I've been out, and it's just amazing to see what

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Speaker 3: you do for everyone. So thank you first and foremost,

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Speaker 3: and let's get this thing started.

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Speaker 4: Oh well, I don't know, I gotta take a breath

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Speaker 4: after that, but thank you for saying so. I uh,

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Speaker 4: you know, I forget these things because you know, there's

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Speaker 4: just so much to do every day. Because this is

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Speaker 4: such a an epidemic in this country. You couldn't have

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Speaker 4: seen this coming a million miles away. We'll talk about that, right.

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Speaker 4: So you're you're from Missouri, right.

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Speaker 6: Yep, from Missouri. I was born born in Australia, raised

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Speaker 6: in Missouri.

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Speaker 4: So you grew up in Missouri. And what was that like?

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Speaker 4: I mean, you had you had a happy childhood.

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Speaker 3: I had a great childhood. Grew up in Columbia, is

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Speaker 3: right in the middle of Missouri. University of Missouri, college town,

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Speaker 3: great town, a lot of culture, education, a lot to do,

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Speaker 3: and so for me, it was a town of opportunity.

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Speaker 3: I had great education. My parents, they took me all

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Speaker 3: over the world. They traveled with me constantly, and I

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Speaker 3: got to learn a lot about people from being in

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Speaker 3: that town and from traveling and everything else.

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Speaker 6: So my childhood couldn't have been any better.

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Speaker 4: A close family, very close family.

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Speaker 3: We were all together my whole life, and you know,

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Speaker 3: it was it was like the picture book.

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Speaker 6: Family, right, you know, mom, dad's sister.

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Speaker 3: We had a little dog, and you know, just a

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Speaker 3: little middle class existence and everyone was happy.

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Speaker 6: Everything Everything was going good.

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Speaker 3: And I played sports in high school and had a

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Speaker 3: lot of friends and everything, and then went to college,

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Speaker 3: and at that point everything was still very normal.

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Speaker 4: Everything was very normal until everything went completely haywire. And

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Speaker 4: you hadn't had any experience with police or arrests or

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Speaker 4: authority in any way to this point.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, I had never been accused of any crimes,

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Speaker 3: for sure when I was in high school. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a college town, so of course there's going to

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Speaker 3: be police that show up at parties. People get mips

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Speaker 3: and things of that nature. No one that I knew

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Speaker 3: had ever been arrested for anything that would have put

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Speaker 3: them in jail. I had never met anyone that had

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Speaker 3: spent the night in jail. You know, some kids got

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Speaker 3: in trouble for small things like like in most towns,

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Speaker 3: but the fact of being arrested for a real crime

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Speaker 3: was it didn't even exist in my world.

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Speaker 4: I was so moved and angry and just upset in general.

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Speaker 4: After seeing the forty eight hours piece, which was the

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Speaker 4: first exposure I ever had to your case. Some of

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Speaker 4: the things that stuck out for me about that piece

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Speaker 4: were the idea that this was a cold case. Right

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Speaker 4: It was the murder of a sports reporter and he

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Speaker 4: had been beaten to death outside of his car.

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Speaker 6: I guess right, yeah, outside of his work.

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Speaker 4: And two and a half years later, no leads, nothing

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Speaker 4: going on, right, One of the local TV stations ran

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Speaker 4: one of those things that they run time to time

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Speaker 4: where they had like a composite sketch. Right, did you

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Speaker 4: even know about this murder when it happened? Was it

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Speaker 4: big news in the area.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a small town. There's about one hundred thousand people.

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Speaker 3: I do recall hearing about it. You know, anything that

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Speaker 3: happens in that town, like a murder, you hear about

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Speaker 3: it was its big news because they don't happen that often.

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Speaker 3: That was the extent of my knowledge on you know,

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Speaker 3: I mean young in high school and it's like, whoa,

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Speaker 3: somebody was murdered on howe any night.

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Speaker 6: That's kind of creepy.

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Speaker 4: So let's go back to that. Because the sports reporter,

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Speaker 4: ken Heidholt was murdered in a very brutal manner. He

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Speaker 4: was beaten to death with a tire iron or something

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Speaker 4: like that. I don't you know if they even know

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Speaker 4: to this day, but it was a heavy metal object

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Speaker 4: of some sort and when that Crimesoppers piece ran, Charles

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Speaker 4: Rickson was affected by it in some way. Right. He

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Speaker 4: saw this on TV. He was with his friends and

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Speaker 4: he had some sort of a vision or something came

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Speaker 4: over him which made him say to his friends, Hey,

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Speaker 4: you know, I mean I kind of look like that guy.

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Speaker 4: I wonder if it could have been, if I could

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Speaker 4: have been involved in so or some crazy thing like that.

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Speaker 4: And then one of the friends called the cops.

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Speaker 6: Right.

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Speaker 4: And this is an interesting thing about your case, Ryan,

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Speaker 4: because we've covered false confessions on this show, and false

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Speaker 4: confessions are so terribly troubling. In your case, you were

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Speaker 4: the victim of false confession, but you didn't confess. That's

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Speaker 4: what's crazy about this, Right, You were implicated because somebody

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Speaker 4: else who also didn't commit the crime, actually thought that

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Speaker 4: maybe he did for some reason. And the brain is

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Speaker 4: a strange things to memory. Who knows what came over him, right.

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Speaker 3: And one of the quotes that always stuck out to

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Speaker 3: me is something that Charles ericson my co defendant, the

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Speaker 3: person who had these images, who ultimately testified against me,

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Speaker 3: something that he said, and this is verbatim. He says,

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Speaker 3: if I did it, Ryan must have been with me.

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Speaker 3: And based on that, I mean, that is what starts

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Speaker 3: this whole thing. Based on that, I lost ten years

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Speaker 3: of my life. I was put into prison for a

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Speaker 3: crime I had nothing to do with.

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Speaker 4: Was there any physical evidence of any kind connecting to

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Speaker 4: this case.

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Speaker 3: There was no physical evidence connecting me or Charles Erickson.

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Speaker 3: But the important fact is there is a lot.

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Speaker 6: Of physical evidence there.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's a bloody footprint, there's a hair in

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Speaker 3: the victim's hand, there's a paper with a palm print.

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Speaker 6: There are things.

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Speaker 3: That, even to this day, could be tested to determine

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Speaker 3: guilt of another individual. And the police have chosen not

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Speaker 3: to look into those things. And here's what's really really

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Speaker 3: frustrating is when I got out, the public was enraged.

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Speaker 3: They were frustrated with what the police had done, and

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Speaker 3: they said, we want to know what really happened in

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Speaker 3: this case, because clearly it wasn't Ryan, it wasn't Ericson,

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Speaker 3: the kid who is still to this day in prison.

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Speaker 3: And so the police said, we're gonna we're gonna open

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Speaker 3: this case, We're going to look back into it, We're

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Speaker 3: going to see what happened here. Well, three months later,

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Speaker 3: you know, in a very low key way. They're just

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Speaker 3: kind of like, well, you know, we got somebody in

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Speaker 3: prison for it right now, so we're not gonna we're

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Speaker 3: not gonna investigate it.

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Speaker 6: That's not gonna happen.

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Speaker 4: Right, So the net effect if you're a resident of

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Speaker 4: Columbia or Missouri or the United States, because we don't

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Speaker 4: know where this guy is. This guy who is a dangerous,

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Speaker 4: violent killer is out there walking amongst us. I mean,

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Speaker 4: it is an outrage that they have this evidence and

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Speaker 4: they won't test it. It even for me, like, my head's going,

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Speaker 4: what first of all, and let's talk about this right

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Speaker 4: jail because this is something that people don't focus on enough.

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Speaker 4: You were in jail for a long time awaiting trial.

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Speaker 4: They set bail at twenty million dollars.

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Speaker 6: Right, twenty million dollars. Yeah, it was it was a

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Speaker 6: jo you know. That is a in my mind, that's

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Speaker 6: how publicity's the reality.

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Speaker 3: The way our legal system works is if you're arrested

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Speaker 3: for a very serious crime, like a murder, they can

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Speaker 3: choose not to give you a bail, and they do

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Speaker 3: that often, or they can give you a million dollar

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Speaker 3: bail whatever. Right bail is meant so that you should

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Speaker 3: have the opportunity to raise those funds and get out

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Speaker 3: so you can fight your case because you have not

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Speaker 3: been proven guilty. At that point, I had no bail

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Speaker 3: for eight months. I went into a bail hearing and

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Speaker 3: the judge out of nowhere says twenty million dollars. And

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Speaker 3: so that is a different thing than saying no bail.

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Speaker 3: That is a political statement. That is her saying that

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Speaker 3: I endorse this case as a judge, and they're supposed

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Speaker 3: to be independent. I endorse this case. I'm with the prosecutor,

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Speaker 3: and we're going to take this kid and put him

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Speaker 3: in prison for the rest of his life. And that

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Speaker 3: is not something a judge should do. Judge Ellen Roper

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Speaker 3: made a huge mistake there. I think she should be

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Speaker 3: health accountable for that. And that is the politics we

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Speaker 3: see with our criminal legal system in these people's lives,

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Speaker 3: you know, I mean, this is my life and that

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Speaker 3: judge is playing a game with it. And that is

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Speaker 3: incredibly scary to see, especially at the age of nineteen

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Speaker 3: or twenty, and you're just like, how is this our

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Speaker 3: legal system? How is this innocent until proven guilty?

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Speaker 6: Because it's not.

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Speaker 4: So Yeah, and I hadn't even thought about that, because

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Speaker 4: to my knowledge, your bail was the highest bail in

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Speaker 4: the history of the state of Missouri.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I think it's the highest in the history of

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Speaker 3: the country in terms of the charge. Right, you have

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Speaker 3: a charge of first agree murder, second degree robbery. There's

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Speaker 3: no evidence I had never been arrested or convicted of

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Speaker 3: any crime, and I'm getting a twenty million dollar bail.

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Speaker 3: Here's a guy sitting next to me in the same pod,

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Speaker 3: in the same county with a first agree murder charge

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Speaker 3: and he is a repeat offender. In his bail for

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Speaker 3: pretty much the same charge was five hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 4: Wow. So yeah, and I hadn't even thought about it.

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Speaker 4: But you're absolutely right. In fact, by setting that bail

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Speaker 4: of twenty million and that going out in the press

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Speaker 4: as it does, basically it's poisoning the jury pool because

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Speaker 4: it's saying, hey, you know what, we can say that

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Speaker 4: or this guy to be extremely dangerous, so dangerous that

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Speaker 4: we're going to set the bail so high that even

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Speaker 4: if its family's rich, and your family wasn't poor, but

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Speaker 4: they weren't rich, So even if the family is one

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Speaker 4: of the wealthiest families around, they're still not gonna be

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Speaker 4: able to post it. So it's a wink wink, like

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Speaker 4: we're going to keep this guy around because we know

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Speaker 4: he's guilty. And that's absolutely really it's.

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Speaker 6: Makes me sick.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so you go to trial, you by now had

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Speaker 4: been in jail for how long?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I've been in jail for about eighteen months at

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Speaker 3: that point a year and a half. Trial was actually

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Speaker 3: set and I don't think this is a coincidence. On

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Speaker 3: my twenty first birthday, it was Monday through Friday, and

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Speaker 3: my birthday for the twenty first birthday was Wednesday, So

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Speaker 3: I'll never never forget that. And by the way, I

256
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Speaker 3: want to mention county jail, and I think this is

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Speaker 3: overlooked a lot.

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Speaker 6: I think it's really interesting for people to hear.

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Speaker 3: But when you're innocent until proven guilty and you're in

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Speaker 3: the county jail, it is far worse than being in prison.

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Speaker 3: Most guys I know, they're happy to go to prison

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Speaker 3: after being in the country jet. It is a very,

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Speaker 3: very poor existence. My first year in the county jail,

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Speaker 3: I went outside, literally outside two times. And that is

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Speaker 3: innocent until proven because I don't understand how that can be.

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Speaker 3: And I went outside every time that I could, but

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Speaker 3: you're literally sleep deprived. The lights never go off, you

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Speaker 3: never go outside, you have no human contact with anyone

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Speaker 3: outside of prison. So it's a horrible existence. But for

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Speaker 3: those eighteen months before you go to trial, they're basically

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Speaker 3: sucking the life out of you. And then what you're

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Speaker 3: seeing in trial is a shell of a human being.

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Speaker 3: So when you watch forty eight Hours or Dayline or

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Speaker 3: any other show and you see these people sitting there

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Speaker 3: on trial, I mean, they probably look emaciated, they probably

276
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Speaker 3: look strange, they probably act weird, and that's because they've

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Speaker 3: been in this horrific environment for so long that I mean,

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Speaker 3: they have no emotions left, they've spent them all, and

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Speaker 3: they haven't been eating right, they have no nutrition. So

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Speaker 3: just take that into consideration when you're looking at somebody

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Speaker 3: who's going through this situation. You know, you're sitting in

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Speaker 3: a courtroom full of these people who are staring at you.

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Speaker 3: You're in a fish bowl and you're the only fish,

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Speaker 3: and people are going to do like this satanic fish

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Speaker 3: or something. And not to mention in the way you

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Speaker 3: were treated the last eighteen months.

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Speaker 4: No, I'm glad you brought that up, Ryan, and when

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Speaker 4: you described that to me, and it's not like you're

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Speaker 4: comparing jail to a minimum security prison. You were in

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Speaker 4: a maximum security prison, right, And jails are chaotic, I mean,

291
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Speaker 4: among other things. And this is something that's really so

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Speaker 4: horrible to think about. But they're never cleaned, right, They're

293
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Speaker 4: always occupied and they're never cleaned. So you're in a

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Speaker 4: extremely toxic, poisonous environment in so many different ways. And

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Speaker 4: you're in a pressure cooker, right because you were going

296
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Speaker 4: to sell with how many other guys.

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Speaker 3: Eight guys, twenty four to seven and you know, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're right, it is a pressure cooker.

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Speaker 6: I mean, you have these people.

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Speaker 3: Every single one of those people's lives is on the line.

301
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Speaker 3: They don't know what's going to happen next. They don't

302
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Speaker 3: know if they're going to go to prison for the

303
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Speaker 3: rest of the life. Some of them don't know if

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Speaker 3: they're gonna get the death penalty.

305
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Speaker 6: Some might get out tomorrow.

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Speaker 3: And so you have all these different thoughts and feelings

307
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Speaker 3: and emotions going on. You know, people are losing their

308
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Speaker 3: families or they can't see their kids.

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Speaker 6: Whatever it might be.

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Speaker 3: And you have that on top of the fact that

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Speaker 3: you can't eat right. You can't get any exercise. Really,

312
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Speaker 3: you can't be with loved ones. There's no outlet, right,

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Speaker 3: The only outlet is towards another person, and so people

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Speaker 3: end up fighting and getting hurt.

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Speaker 6: And you know, you don't want to be in that situation.

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Speaker 3: You don't want to be forced to fight somebody for survival.

317
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Speaker 3: But that's what they make you do. That's what they

318
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Speaker 3: put you in a situation where there's no other options.

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Speaker 3: And then when it happens, they want to charge you

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Speaker 3: with another crime, like you did something wrong.

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Speaker 6: Put me in the cell with my girlfriend for a year.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna, you know, hate each other by the end

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Speaker 3: of it, right, You can't do that, and they'd put

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Speaker 3: you in there with these people who are violent criminals.

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Speaker 6: You don't know each other, you don't care about each other.

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Speaker 3: Yet you have to be there twenty four to seven

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Speaker 3: with all that going on, all those emotions, all those feelings,

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Speaker 3: and that loss of your liberty and privilege. So it

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Speaker 3: is a frightening place.

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Speaker 4: The claustrophobic element of it alone, right, because you're never

331
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Speaker 4: getting out. You're not getting out of cell, right, I mean,

332
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Speaker 4: what you've got to get out for a shower, no.

333
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Speaker 3: Well, the thing is it's like a pod and it's

334
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Speaker 3: very small. It's smaller than a one story home, and

335
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Speaker 3: the showers in there, and you have a TV in

336
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Speaker 3: there on a phone, and eight other guys, and it

337
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Speaker 3: is The claustrophobic feeling is so intense, because even if

338
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Speaker 3: even if you've been there for three months and you

339
00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:33,800
Speaker 3: start to feel like you know the guys and you

340
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Speaker 3: don't feel like you're in danger, that day you'll wake

341
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Speaker 3: up and you realize I can't get up and walk

342
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Speaker 3: out of this thing today. I can't get up and

343
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Speaker 3: walk out of here tomorrow or next month or next year.

344
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Speaker 3: Like I can't go anywhere but this little house. Like

345
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Speaker 3: I can't even step foot outside see the sunlight. I

346
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Speaker 3: can't look out a window because there are no windows.

347
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Speaker 6: Like this is it. I can't do anything.

348
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Speaker 3: I have no freedom, I have no choices, I have nothing,

349
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Speaker 3: no responsibility because I can't even go work if I

350
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Speaker 3: want to work, I can't go grab a book if

351
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Speaker 3: I want to grab a buck.

352
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Speaker 6: I can't do anything.

353
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Speaker 4: There's no books in there.

354
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Speaker 3: There are some books, but they don't come by very often. Fortunately,

355
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Speaker 3: after a while I was able to get some books.

356
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Speaker 3: My father was able to bring me some, but you know,

357
00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,479
Speaker 3: they change the policies, and so for a while, they

358
00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:17,879
Speaker 3: took out all the legal books. You know, I thought,

359
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Speaker 3: at least if I got to sit here at twenty

360
00:17:19,800 --> 00:17:21,440
Speaker 3: four to seven, I'll be able to read legal books.

361
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Speaker 3: It's my constitutional right to be able to defend myself.

362
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Speaker 3: But they took out all the legal books, so I

363
00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:27,200
Speaker 3: couldn't even read that. And you know, I'm here, I'm

364
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Speaker 3: nineteen years old. I want to prove my innocence and

365
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Speaker 3: fight my case, and they don't even give you the

366
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Speaker 3: resources to do that.

367
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Speaker 4: And I top of everything else, you're going to the

368
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 4: bathroom on top of each other. Where do you sleep?

369
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Speaker 4: And how do you change clothes? How does that even

370
00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:39,400
Speaker 4: work well?

371
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Speaker 3: And where I was at it was a violent felon tank,

372
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Speaker 3: so it has its benefits and his down sides. Of course,

373
00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,400
Speaker 3: in many tanks it's just an open bay, so everybody's

374
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Speaker 3: out there together. And yeah, I mean, you just got

375
00:17:51,960 --> 00:17:54,119
Speaker 3: to get naked in front of people or whatever. You

376
00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,200
Speaker 3: poop in front of people, you pee in front of people, everything,

377
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 3: and so that is one existence in a violent fell

378
00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:02,280
Speaker 3: in tank. They put you in your own cell because

379
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Speaker 3: they don't want people sleeping in an environment where there

380
00:18:05,760 --> 00:18:08,280
Speaker 3: are people who are accused of murder, right, so you

381
00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,200
Speaker 3: don't want to be asleep, and then some guy snaps

382
00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,679
Speaker 3: out and comes over there and tries to murder you.

383
00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 3: Like that's a liability, I suppose, So they give you

384
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Speaker 3: your own cell in the violent Fellon tank.

385
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Speaker 6: That's why there's eight people. There's eight cells. So that

386
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 6: is the.

387
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Speaker 3: One, I guess good thing about being in a violent

388
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Speaker 3: Pealent tank. The bad thing is that they're violent felons,

389
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Speaker 3: so it's a lot more dangerous when those doors are open.

390
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Speaker 6: Those doors are open about eighteen hours a day.

391
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Speaker 4: And you had reason to understand that the system was

392
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,800
Speaker 4: not designed to work for justice and that as an

393
00:18:40,840 --> 00:18:43,000
Speaker 4: innocent man, you had a real chance of ending up

394
00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:47,200
Speaker 4: in prison for a long long time. So you devised

395
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,359
Speaker 4: a workout program, right in order to be able to

396
00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 4: defend yourself. And if you can't obviously see him on

397
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,720
Speaker 4: the radio, but if you see Ryan now he is

398
00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:59,840
Speaker 4: he looks like a bodybuilder. So how did you do

399
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:03,199
Speaker 4: that without any kind of access to gym equipment or

400
00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 4: weights or anything else? And how did that work for you?

401
00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:08,600
Speaker 3: You know, it comes down to education, really That's what

402
00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,359
Speaker 3: I love about fitness now, is I see a lot

403
00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:13,520
Speaker 3: of people work out. I've been around, you know, I

404
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 3: was in an incubator with guys for a decade and

405
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:17,879
Speaker 3: I could see what they were doing, and a lot

406
00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:20,160
Speaker 3: of people work really hard, but they never educate themselves

407
00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,479
Speaker 3: on what to do for themselves physically, and so, you know,

408
00:19:24,560 --> 00:19:28,240
Speaker 3: that's why I developed this routine, is just understanding how.

409
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 6: The body works. What's what are the best workouts that.

410
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 3: Are going to get you the largest gains in the

411
00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:35,760
Speaker 3: smallest amount of time, and then what do you have

412
00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,000
Speaker 3: to do nutritionally to supplement that? And so that's you know,

413
00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 3: I just started figuring it out reading books and everything.

414
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:45,120
Speaker 3: When you're in an environment like prison and you have

415
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 3: only so many outlets, I mean, really, the only thing.

416
00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,440
Speaker 6: You possess are your mind in your body. Nothing else

417
00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:50,919
Speaker 6: is yours.

418
00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 3: You don't have any other really choices or anything. So

419
00:19:54,119 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 3: I educated myself daily and I worked out daily because

420
00:19:57,280 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 3: all I had was myself, and I worked on myself

421
00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:04,359
Speaker 3: every day, and I think that taught me a valuable lesson.

422
00:20:04,359 --> 00:20:06,480
Speaker 3: I think we can all do that no matter where

423
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 3: we're at in life. It's very important.

424
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,359
Speaker 4: Well, you had a very strong motivation, and you were

425
00:20:11,400 --> 00:20:13,960
Speaker 4: really thinking ahead because of the fact that you knew

426
00:20:14,000 --> 00:20:17,600
Speaker 4: that if you ended up in a maxim security prison,

427
00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,200
Speaker 4: there were going to be times when you're going to

428
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:21,879
Speaker 4: have to defend yourself or even inside this jail. So

429
00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:27,040
Speaker 4: you designed a program to make yourself strong for that eventuality.

430
00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 4: And I know you talked to me about punching the walls, like,

431
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 4: how does that work?

432
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Speaker 6: Right?

433
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Speaker 3: So I did skip over the part about why why

434
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,800
Speaker 3: I was working on so hard, and it is it's

435
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,040
Speaker 3: my why was survival and that is a very strong

436
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 3: motivator and that's why I would work out and eventually

437
00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 3: ended up punching walls. So the walls are concrete and

438
00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,840
Speaker 3: you know, they don't move. They're not soft by any means.

439
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,480
Speaker 3: But I saw people fight, and I saw people break

440
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 3: their fists, and if you break your fist, you're not

441
00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,280
Speaker 3: gonna be able to fight. And you know, I did

442
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:06,199
Speaker 3: everything I could to ensure my existence because it is

443
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,080
Speaker 3: scary what you see with our legal system and the

444
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:11,119
Speaker 3: fact that if you're arrested, your life is pretty much

445
00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,040
Speaker 3: over at that point, you have a very small chance

446
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:16,320
Speaker 3: of winning, regardless of the facts. I mean, everything stacked

447
00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,040
Speaker 3: against you. So I didn't want to end up in

448
00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 3: a fight to save my own life, to protect myself

449
00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 3: and not be able to function. And so I realized,

450
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 3: you know, you had to have strong hands. You had

451
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 3: to be able to take a hit, and you have

452
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:29,720
Speaker 3: to be able to give a hit and not break down.

453
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 3: And so I would start lightly hitting the walls, the

454
00:21:33,880 --> 00:21:36,720
Speaker 3: concrete walls, and I would hit them until you know,

455
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 3: my knuckles got bloody and everything, and then i'd stop

456
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 3: for that day, and while they're still trying to heal,

457
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 3: I would continue hitting the walls. And I ended up

458
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:47,399
Speaker 3: building a very very strong fist that I feel I

459
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:51,199
Speaker 3: could probably last through anything. And the only reason I

460
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,359
Speaker 3: did that is because I didn't want to be victimized

461
00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,240
Speaker 3: while I was in prison for a crime I didn't commit.

462
00:21:57,840 --> 00:21:58,840
Speaker 6: And that's it, really, I.

463
00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 3: Mean, it's it's an odd feeling knowing that your whole

464
00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 3: being is built around not becoming a victim. But that's

465
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 3: what it was, man, that's survival in prison. You gotta

466
00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,000
Speaker 3: do what you gotta do to protect yourself and any

467
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 3: and every way that you can find.

468
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,879
Speaker 4: So the trial comes Ryan, and you've been caged for

469
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 4: eighteen months in the most extreme circumstances. You come to

470
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 4: trial and then you're forced to watch your co defendant

471
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:45,600
Speaker 4: get up there, Charles Erickson, and tell a story that

472
00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 4: has no relationship to reality or the truth, and ultimately

473
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 4: you're convicted. I can't even fathom what that moment must

474
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 4: have been like. But it's not too painful to go

475
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:01,080
Speaker 4: back there.

476
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 6: That is, without it out in my thirty three years

477
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 6: of life. The worst week.

478
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:11,320
Speaker 3: Of my entire life kind of jels horrible. Prison's bad,

479
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,400
Speaker 3: but when you're in trial, there's nothing worse. You're basically

480
00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 3: naked in front of the world. Right, I had no secrets,

481
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 3: I have no Everything that I am is out in

482
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,760
Speaker 3: front of people. And then they take that and they

483
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,399
Speaker 3: add lies on top of it, and they're accusing you

484
00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:30,159
Speaker 3: of something that you didn't do that you have no

485
00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:30,919
Speaker 3: knowledge of.

486
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 6: And you know, every media source that could have been

487
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 6: there was there.

488
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:39,200
Speaker 3: And the courtroom is completely full, and these people are

489
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 3: looking at you like you're some kind of animal, right,

490
00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 3: and you're trying to be respectful of the court. You're

491
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: just trying to sit there and be quiet. And I

492
00:23:45,840 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 3: remember I would turn around and, you know, wave to

493
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:51,120
Speaker 3: my mom during a recess you know, and I would

494
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:53,640
Speaker 3: smile because I saw my mom, like, hey, how you doing, Mom,

495
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 3: Like I'm glad you're doing okay, and smile because I'm

496
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:57,440
Speaker 3: doing okay.

497
00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 6: So let's, you know, get through this. And then me

498
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,720
Speaker 6: would go out and say, look at this cocky piece

499
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 6: of shit.

500
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: You know, he's just like you don't care about the

501
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 3: Cordies and they're like smiling and way being at his

502
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 3: fans and stuff. It's like, you don't have fans. There's

503
00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,399
Speaker 3: no such thing as a fan. You are being accused

504
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:15,679
Speaker 3: of a crime you didn't commit. You're fighting for your life,

505
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 3: and you're saying hi to your family. And then even

506
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 3: then the media takes liberty with that, and it's it's

507
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:26,840
Speaker 3: insane and it is horrific to deal with that component

508
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 3: of it. But it's even worse knowing that the police

509
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,960
Speaker 3: know you're innocent, the prosecutor knows you're innocent, the judge

510
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 3: knows you're innocent, and yet they're allowing this tobacle to

511
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 3: go on and allowing these people to get on the

512
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 3: stand and tell what they know are lies.

513
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 6: And I get why some of these people lied.

514
00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 3: It's self preservation, because you know, they get a person

515
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 3: out of prison, and they say, you know, you know,

516
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 3: it'd be nice if you said these things, it would

517
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,280
Speaker 3: be really helpful. What's the implication is if you don't

518
00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:57,240
Speaker 3: say these things, then we're going.

519
00:24:57,240 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 6: To help you get back into prison.

520
00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: Right, And so they're doing for their own existence. But

521
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:03,879
Speaker 3: there's no reason the police of the prosecutor should be

522
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 3: doing these things to people, right, They're they're manipulating and

523
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 3: taking advantage of these people and uh, and they're doing

524
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 3: it to the end to take another human being's life.

525
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,679
Speaker 3: And so it's you lose all faith in humanity, you

526
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,639
Speaker 3: lose all hope and humanity. And I mean that was

527
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 3: the turning point for me. I fundamentally hated people outside

528
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: of my family. I pretty much just hated human existence

529
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 3: to human race for a good three.

530
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 6: Or four years.

531
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: And I can understand that. I mean, like you said,

532
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,119
Speaker 4: the people that are supposed to be paid to help you,

533
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 4: or the people are supposed to be there to help

534
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:40,359
Speaker 4: the victim and the family, the victim and society and

535
00:25:40,520 --> 00:25:43,879
Speaker 4: all of them letting down everyone for their own selfish.

536
00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:46,359
Speaker 6: Are ones who are perpetuating this offense. And that's it is.

537
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:48,679
Speaker 6: You will never I still don't understand it.

538
00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 3: You know, people will look at my case and they're like,

539
00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 3: we didn't realize this can happen. Looking at you, realize

540
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 3: that this could happen to us. And I think so

541
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 3: many people want to compartmentalize that, right. They want to say, oh,

542
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 3: this is happening, but that will never happen to me,

543
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,199
Speaker 3: that will never happen to my family or whatever. But

544
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 3: the reality is that it doesn't matter what you look like,

545
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 3: where you come from, how you act, this could happen

546
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,880
Speaker 3: to you. This is a subject. This is an issue

547
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,760
Speaker 3: that does affect us, all right. I mean it affects

548
00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:22,760
Speaker 3: us economically, it affects our society, it affects everything. And

549
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 3: it is happening disproportionately to young black men, poor people,

550
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 3: even if you're poor and white, whatever it might be.

551
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,560
Speaker 3: The fact is, though, that this is happening more to

552
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: people who don't look like me. And it's sad that

553
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:38,959
Speaker 3: for a lot of our society to stand up and say, hey,

554
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 3: this is wrong, it has to be a young white

555
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 3: kid because the reality is this is happening to so

556
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 3: many people that are going unnoticed, and I think that

557
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 3: needs to be discussed and we need to talk about that.

558
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 3: There are a lot of issues with raising this country obviously,

559
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 3: and so hopefully that will change. Hopefully, you know, wonderful

560
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 3: commissioners will stop in general, but will acknowledge the fact that, hey,

561
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: I mean, this has happening all over the place, but

562
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 3: primarily to these.

563
00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 6: Young black men, and.

564
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 3: That really has to stop, and it's really tearing apart communities.

565
00:27:08,760 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then there's all the effects are terrible. It's

566
00:27:12,000 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 4: an issue, as you said, that affects everybody in so

567
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,480
Speaker 4: many different ways. And again you're right, it's a sensitive topic.

568
00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 4: But yeah, it's a sad commentary on our society. But

569
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 4: it's a fact, and it's one of the reasons why

570
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 4: I think it's so important that you've been out there

571
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 4: doing what you've been doing to spread the word. So

572
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 4: you were sentenced to what I was.

573
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 3: Sentenced to forty years. Yeah, so in trial you get

574
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,399
Speaker 3: to see that it's not going well. You have a

575
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: person sitting there saying something that isn't true, being egged

576
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: on and led by the prosecution, and so then you

577
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 3: get convicted. And before I was sentenced, you have a

578
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 3: sentencing hearing and you.

579
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,119
Speaker 6: Have the opportunity to speak. The first time I had

580
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 6: the opportunity to speak.

581
00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 3: This whole entire time from March tenth, two thousand and

582
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,680
Speaker 3: four to two years later, I never done anything. I

583
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 3: was arrested, I never said anything that implicated me or anything.

584
00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:08,280
Speaker 3: All the facts proved my innocence. I never had the

585
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,920
Speaker 3: opportunity to speak to the public or anything. So I'm

586
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 3: basically just being like I jumped in the stream or

587
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 3: I got pushed in the stream, basically, and then have

588
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: been going down current this whole time. So two years later,

589
00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:22,040
Speaker 3: I have the first opportunity to actually speak publicly, right,

590
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:24,960
Speaker 3: and I get to speak to the judge at the

591
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:28,440
Speaker 3: sentencing hearing after I've already been convicted, and I'm telling her,

592
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 3: I hope you can see the facts. I mean, the

593
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 3: facts are blatantly clear. Please look at those, Please be unbiased.

594
00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:36,920
Speaker 3: This is the same judge that gave me a twenty

595
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 3: million dollar bail, and you know, give me a new

596
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 3: trial at the very least, because I will prove my innocence.

597
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 6: You'll see that I'm innocent or whatever.

598
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 3: The whole time I'm talking, she didn't even look at me,

599
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 3: didn't pay anytention, just like I wasn't even there. I'm like,

600
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 3: this is my whole entire life, and I have one

601
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 3: opportunity to speak and to be heard by this court.

602
00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 3: You know, I've respected the court and that you respect

603
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 3: me the same. The one opportunity I had, she wouldn't

604
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 3: even look at me. She didn't listen to a word

605
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: I'm saying, and then she just did what she did

606
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 3: forty years see you later. And it was just one

607
00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 3: of the most disgusting things that I've experienced in my

608
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 3: whole entire life, and is by this judge who were

609
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 3: supposed to, you know, hold in high respect and it's

610
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 3: supposed to be a pillar of our community.

611
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 6: It's a horrible person. It's a horrible person who.

612
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 3: Has no motivation to do what's right for the society

613
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 3: that she lives in.

614
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:32,400
Speaker 6: And it's disgusting.

615
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,480
Speaker 3: And even now, you know she she's still you know,

616
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 3: she lives in like a million dollar house or something,

617
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 3: and she's enjoying a great life and uh, and she's

618
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 3: just this person who has destroyed lives. And there are

619
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 3: many great judges, don't get me wrong, but the fact

620
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 3: that that person can sit up there and be esteemed

621
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 3: or they're not even doing their job, it is ah,

622
00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 3: it's sickening.

623
00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 4: I'm u. The idea that she would be shuffling papers

624
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 4: or doing whatever she felt was more important than forty

625
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,120
Speaker 4: years of your life at that particular time after everything

626
00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 4: you've been through is just yeah, that's hard to process.

627
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,920
Speaker 4: It just takes a person who's like just so completely

628
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 4: fucking bankrupt, right, so morally devoid of anything, and I

629
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 4: don't get it. Wow, So you end up going to

630
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 4: maximum security prison and you could put in a selling

631
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 4: it a sell mat.

632
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:35,719
Speaker 3: Right, So it's difficult not to go on and on

633
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,000
Speaker 3: because there are so many It's ten years of your life, right,

634
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 3: So my first selling when I go into prison, you know,

635
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 3: I mean prison at a young age. I'm twenty one.

636
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, you know this is I'm going straight into hell.

637
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: Like I'm basically just jumping feet first into hell. I

638
00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 3: got no no ifans or butts about it, no choice,

639
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 3: and so I'm scared. There's no doubt about it. I'm

640
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:03,080
Speaker 3: very afraid at this point.

641
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,719
Speaker 6: And I go into the room and he's not in there.

642
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 6: Everybody's out at rec or whatever. And then an.

643
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:13,000
Speaker 3: Hour later, this huge guy comes in and he's completely

644
00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 3: covered in tattoos. But it's really interesting how the tattoos

645
00:31:16,360 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 3: are laid out, like half of his body are demonic

646
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 3: tattoos and the other half are angelic tattoos.

647
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 6: And I'm like, what the hell is going on here? Right?

648
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 6: And so.

649
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: He gets to talk and I realize his face is

650
00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 3: completely messed up and the demonic side had been shot

651
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 3: with a shotgun and basically distorted his face and the

652
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,920
Speaker 3: upper part of his body's shoulder and whatnot. And so

653
00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:43,920
Speaker 3: later on we get to talking and he's like, basically,

654
00:31:44,000 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 3: you know, he was robbing a dope house and he

655
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:50,680
Speaker 3: got shot on the demonic side because that was like God.

656
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 6: Telling him that he should be good or whatever.

657
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: Well, it turns out this guy is essentially bipolar, and

658
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 3: he definitely wasn't good at any point, and he was

659
00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 3: probably the most frightening individual I came across in prison,

660
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: and especially as a first selly. But it's like, there

661
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 3: were these imaginary lines in the cell and imagine like.

662
00:32:09,280 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 6: You're in this little eight by eight foot box.

663
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: Imagine being in your bathroom with somebody who's twice your

664
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 3: size and insane, like literally insane.

665
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 6: Who's known to be violent, known to.

666
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 3: Have been arrested multiple times and spend a lot of

667
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: time in the hole, and he draws these imaginary line

668
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:29,800
Speaker 3: So if you put your toe over this line that

669
00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: you don't even know exist, then a fight would ensue.

670
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: And if a fight ensues, there's nowhere to go. You

671
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 3: can't run, you can't beat them, you can't call for

672
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 3: help because they're in another room. So basically, I'm tiptoeing

673
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:47,560
Speaker 3: around for the first three months of my time in prison,

674
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 3: and it's just like a ticking time mom. I know

675
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 3: that if I'm there long enough, this guy will kill me.

676
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 3: And that's how I had to live for the first

677
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 3: three or four months of my prison experience. And it

678
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: was very bad, and we got into it quite a

679
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 3: few times, and you know, and you're just trying to

680
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 3: be as quiet and peaceful as you can, but nothing

681
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 3: you do is right. So, yeah, I wish I could

682
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: bring you into the mental anguish that exists, because although

683
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 3: I was able to avoid being stabbed or hit by

684
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 3: this individual, the mental anguish that you experienced from knowing

685
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 3: that that could happen at any second for any reason,

686
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 3: is it'll aid you like two years in one month.

687
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 6: It's insane, it's horrible.

688
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 4: Did you have any dialogue with him? Did you have

689
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 4: any light moments at all? Was there, you know, was

690
00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 4: there any kind of camaraderie with this?

691
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:42,239
Speaker 6: There was? Yeah, man, And that's so weird about it.

692
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 6: Like you you're around these people.

693
00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: And some of them are just horrible, horrible human beings,

694
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: but you know, it's life and you get to know

695
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 3: them or whatever. And so I didn't have a TV

696
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,040
Speaker 3: yet or I might have just gotten I can't remember,

697
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 3: and the Notebook came on and uh. And so we're

698
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 3: watching the Notebook at the same time. And the Notebook

699
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 3: comes to a conclusion and we're not really talking during

700
00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: it or anything like that.

701
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 6: It ends, and I'm like, I'm basically about to cry,

702
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 6: you know, I'm like trying to hold back tears. I'm like,

703
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:10,399
Speaker 6: oh my.

704
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 3: God, I'm in this cell with this maniac and the

705
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 3: freaking great movie has got me, you know. It's like,

706
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:20,040
Speaker 3: you know, I miss society and females and everything. Of course,

707
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 3: and then I can't talk. And then I realized this

708
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:27,720
Speaker 3: guy is sniffling up there. He's up there crying, and.

709
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 7: I'm like, what's up in and and he's like, man,

710
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:31,880
Speaker 7: that was a good movie, you know, and uh, and

711
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 7: He's like I'm crying or whatever, and I'm like, I'm

712
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 7: bout to to and so that was just like this weird,

713
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 7: very odd experience, and we like we were laughing about

714
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 7: it or whatever, and we're surprised that impacted us both.

715
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 3: But I mean it was very up and down. It

716
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: was like that, you know. I mean, that was one

717
00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,319
Speaker 3: good moment. There are a million bad moments. And then

718
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:51,840
Speaker 3: when I left, I went over to the.

719
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:53,839
Speaker 6: Yard, the guy gave me a hug. He's like, oh man,

720
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 6: I'm gonna miss you. I'm not gonna miss you, dude.

721
00:34:56,840 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 3: But all right, you know, it's just it's that's a

722
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 3: lot of people in there.

723
00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 6: There are some really good people.

724
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: I still talk to some people in prison, but there

725
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:06,920
Speaker 3: are some people that you'll just never understand that are insane.

726
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 6: They'll hug you one minute and stab you the next.

727
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 3: So it's just you gotta be on your p's and

728
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 3: q's per se.

729
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 4: So you were in there for nine and a half years.

730
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 4: You had many many appeals denied. How many appeals did

731
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 4: you have?

732
00:35:31,560 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: I mean at least six or seven primary appeals, and

733
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: then you know.

734
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 6: They they go up through the court, so you have like.

735
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,759
Speaker 3: The initial court filing and then you have the appellate court,

736
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 3: and then it goes to the Supreme Court, which you

737
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:48,240
Speaker 3: never hears it, and so it's just this like basic

738
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 3: routine that you get in. You know, you file appeal

739
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 3: and then it waited six months, and then they'll hear it,

740
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:54,640
Speaker 3: and then they wait another six months, and then they

741
00:35:54,680 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 3: deny it, and then it wait another six months and

742
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:57,640
Speaker 3: it goes to another court and they'll hear it, and

743
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 3: then they wait another six months. So it's like every

744
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 3: appeal you file, you know, I was like, oh, it'll

745
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:04,399
Speaker 3: be another year, year and a half of my life

746
00:36:04,400 --> 00:36:07,200
Speaker 3: because they're not going to listen to this. These courts

747
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 3: that they're going to, you know which ones will will

748
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:11,719
Speaker 3: be biased and you know which ones won't. So an

749
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 3: appeal was filed and you automatically know what the next

750
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 3: year and a half of my life is not going

751
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:17,000
Speaker 3: to happen.

752
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 6: So I'm just gonna sit back and hope to get

753
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 6: out of that.

754
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,280
Speaker 3: Court and back into one that actually cares about justice.

755
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 4: At some point, the only other witness against you besides

756
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 4: your co defendant who falsely confessed and then falsely implicated

757
00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 4: you and told the story that didn't make any sense

758
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,720
Speaker 4: and kept changing it and was obviously anything but incredible

759
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 4: witness against you. The only other witness against you was

760
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:43,760
Speaker 4: a convicted child molester, right, who was an incentivized witness.

761
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, this individual, he was a custodian. He was

762
00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 3: at the crime scene when it happened, and he went

763
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: outside when the two individuals were out by this car,

764
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:56,279
Speaker 3: who may or may not have committed the crime. In

765
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,080
Speaker 3: the police phone call, the police were called minutes later,

766
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 3: he says, I don't know what the people looked like.

767
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 6: I couldn't even tell you what they were wearing.

768
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 3: I didn't get that good of a look, right, And

769
00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 3: so he gives the phone to a female and she

770
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: could tell the police what the guy's actually looked like

771
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 3: and their build and everything, And so we have on

772
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 3: the record this guy is saying to the police, I

773
00:37:15,600 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 3: have no idea what these guys look like. I can't

774
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 3: tell you what color the hair is anything. And then

775
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 3: he gets out of jail child molestation. The prosecution obviously

776
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 3: calls him in and ultimately he says.

777
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 6: Yep, that's the guy that I saw.

778
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,520
Speaker 3: So you have the you know, So that's that story

779
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:32,240
Speaker 3: in a nutshell.

780
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:34,759
Speaker 4: So in case there wasn't enough, that's troubling everybody about

781
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 4: this case already, the fact that they would actually release

782
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:42,000
Speaker 4: a convicted child molester in exchange for perjured testimony against you.

783
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 3: Well, I think his time was up, so I think

784
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 3: more of what happened there is got he was gonna

785
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: get out, and they basically insinuated if you don't help us,

786
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,360
Speaker 3: then you're gonna go back in. So it's actually that

787
00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: would be the assumption, right that they helped get him out,

788
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,719
Speaker 3: But ultimately what they were doing is we're just.

789
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 6: Not gonna help put you back in if you help.

790
00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: Us, right, But if you don't help us, then we're

791
00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 3: gonna make sure that you violate your probation and you

792
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 3: spend another two or three years in prison as a

793
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,879
Speaker 3: child molester, which is very very rough to me. There

794
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 3: is nothing worse than a jailhouse snitch. I mean that is,

795
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 3: if you are a prosecutor and you use a jailhouse snitch,

796
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,440
Speaker 3: you should go straight to hell because jailhouse snitches have

797
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 3: zero credibility. They are always lying there, always incentivized. It

798
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,799
Speaker 3: is literally the most discussing thing that I've ever seen,

799
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:33,239
Speaker 3: and you know, it impacts people's lives. I was in

800
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 3: maximum security prison in jail for a decade, ten years

801
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 3: of my life. My case really turned in two thousand

802
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,480
Speaker 3: and nine when Kathleen Zelner got involved. Here's one of

803
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,719
Speaker 3: the greatest attorneys in our nation. She has more exonerations

804
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 3: than any other individual attorney in the whole entire country.

805
00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:53,800
Speaker 3: And she was willing to take my case pro bono

806
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 3: at that and that was just I mean, that was

807
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: the biggest ray of hope that I had had at

808
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: that point. And I'm so great that she's in my life,

809
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 3: not only, you know, on the legal side, but just

810
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 3: as as a friend and a confidant.

811
00:39:07,200 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 4: But your biggest advocate through all those years was your father,

812
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 4: who went to extraordinary lengths to fight for you, to

813
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 4: make sure that you knew that he had your back,

814
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 4: and to ultimately prevail, or you wouldn't be sitting here now.

815
00:39:21,560 --> 00:39:24,359
Speaker 4: But there was another person who played an important role

816
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 4: in this right and she was someone who had written

817
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 4: to you as so many other people had. But but

818
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 4: they took on a whole new life.

819
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:31,480
Speaker 6: Absolutely.

820
00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:35,080
Speaker 3: Micah my girlfriend, current girlfriend. Still we've been together, I

821
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 3: think over five years at this point. I've been out

822
00:39:37,360 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 3: less than four. You know, I've been very fortunate, like

823
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 3: I said, I, you know, without my family, I wouldn't

824
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 3: have survived. I would have been crazy, I wouldn't have

825
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:47,640
Speaker 3: given up, but I would have lost a lot of hope.

826
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 6: So without them, I wouldn't be here.

827
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 3: And then Micah came along somehow we just ended up

828
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,839
Speaker 3: writing and talking more and she became a big part

829
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 3: of my life and really kind of initiated this whole

830
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 3: social media movement which helped my case get so much attention,

831
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 3: which was really incredible. So, you know, it is amazing

832
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 3: what has happened with her in the social media movement.

833
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,920
Speaker 3: We have a friend from Facebook, Mike, who was just

834
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:13,320
Speaker 3: very helpful. I mean he helped us like design the

835
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 3: Facebook page and get it up there. And another guy, Richard,

836
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:20,239
Speaker 3: and so with those three they ran the social media thing.

837
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 3: And when our page got up to one hundred thousand

838
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: people on Facebook and that was big. Then there was

839
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: no Instagram really and that really helped push the case

840
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 3: forward and really helped push what.

841
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 6: My father was doing out there and what my mother

842
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 6: was doing.

843
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 3: And like I said earlier, whenever my trial happened, I

844
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 3: lost hope in humanity.

845
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 6: I hated people.

846
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 3: I just I couldn't stand I couldn't understand them, and

847
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: that's what was so frustrating about it. I coudn't understand

848
00:40:44,360 --> 00:40:46,080
Speaker 3: how people could do these things to people. I still don't,

849
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,960
Speaker 3: But then so many beautiful people have been in my life,

850
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 3: like my family and Mike and Richard and Mike and

851
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:56,600
Speaker 3: so many other incredible individuals from forty eight hours in

852
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,120
Speaker 3: Dayline and people who wrote and so well, so many

853
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 3: great people have shown me that the goodness in humanity

854
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:08,799
Speaker 3: can overcome the negativity, right, And there's too many people

855
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:10,520
Speaker 3: the name of course I found. No I'm leaving people

856
00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,479
Speaker 3: out it, but it's just like thank you to them,

857
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 3: thank you to everyone who supported me and supported other

858
00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 3: people in my situation, because without that support we would

859
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,560
Speaker 3: lose hope. And it's really given me the opportunity actually

860
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:25,799
Speaker 3: live my life now, right, because if I still had

861
00:41:25,880 --> 00:41:28,440
Speaker 3: that mentality and I never saw the good side of people,

862
00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 3: then what would I be doing with my life now.

863
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 3: I wouldn't want to help other people. I wouldn't I

864
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 3: don't think i'd be happy in society. I wouldn't be

865
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: happy in my life. So really they help save my

866
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 3: life by giving me my life back, but they also

867
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,279
Speaker 3: help save my life a second time by showing me,

868
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 3: you know, the real passion and real beauty of the

869
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:48,879
Speaker 3: human race.

870
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 4: I get people asking me frequently what can I do

871
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 4: to help? And aside from donating to Innocence Project and

872
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 4: other organizations. It's interesting to hear you talk about it

873
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 4: because so many people wrote to you and what that meant.

874
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 4: What would you say to someone who's listening now in

875
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:08,920
Speaker 4: wherever they are.

876
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,279
Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question, and the reality is there's

877
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:14,600
Speaker 3: a lot you can do. It might not be as

878
00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 3: much as you want because you just want to reach

879
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 3: in there and pull those people out like they're obviously innocent,

880
00:42:18,120 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 3: and you want to do everything you can, and so

881
00:42:20,600 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 3: you just got to you got to be patient. You've

882
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 3: got to find the right ways. I mean, the number

883
00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:27,560
Speaker 3: one thing I would say is to be active. Right, So,

884
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 3: if you find a case that you believe in, number one,

885
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:33,600
Speaker 3: rite that person right their family and let them know

886
00:42:33,640 --> 00:42:35,719
Speaker 3: you support them. I mean that that right there opens

887
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 3: up a huge door and helps so much.

888
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:39,479
Speaker 6: But then if you.

889
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,719
Speaker 3: Initiate that contact, they might have other opportunities for you

890
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 3: to help, like riding the governor or putting together some

891
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,920
Speaker 3: kind of thing that would bring other people in and

892
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: make them aware of it. So to me, it is

893
00:42:51,160 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 3: it is being active and creating awareness.

894
00:42:54,920 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 6: The best thing you can do.

895
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,520
Speaker 3: Right a family member, right the person that you support,

896
00:43:00,080 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 3: and then get involved and start spreading awareness to your

897
00:43:03,120 --> 00:43:05,879
Speaker 3: friends and family. Tell them about the case, have them

898
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 3: read the case, and start talking to your local politicians.

899
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 6: Write them letters, make phone calls.

900
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 3: I mean even this day, every week or two weeks,

901
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,400
Speaker 3: I'm calling some governor. I never get a hold of

902
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,279
Speaker 3: the governor himself, but I am letting them know how

903
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 3: I feel about a case. And I am writing them,

904
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 3: and I'm sending them tweets, and I'm writing them emails,

905
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 3: Like any way we can let them know, let the

906
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:32,920
Speaker 3: people in charge of these systems know that we are

907
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,239
Speaker 3: paying attention and that we demand accountability. I think that

908
00:43:37,400 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 3: is what is going to help make change right. And

909
00:43:40,239 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 3: so what I hear a lot is people say like,

910
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,840
Speaker 3: I don't feel like me as a person can do

911
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:49,960
Speaker 3: enough to bring about change. But that's how change is

912
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,879
Speaker 3: actually done right. It's not done by one person. It's

913
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 3: done by groups of individuals, done by all of us

914
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 3: together doing our own little part. Like I wish I

915
00:43:57,400 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: could do more, I'm just one little guy. But you know,

916
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,319
Speaker 3: I do my little part, and I ask other people

917
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 3: to do their little parts. And if we keep doing

918
00:44:04,360 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 3: that individually, then I think we're gonna we're gonna see

919
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 3: a big change.

920
00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 4: You know, we talked about the worst moment of your

921
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 4: life and the worst week of your life. What about

922
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 4: the best moment of your life?

923
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 3: You know, I think as a human being that you

924
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 3: focus on the negative so much that I don't know

925
00:44:19,719 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 3: what the best of the I mean, the thing about

926
00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 3: living in prison for so long is that you kind of,

927
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, you see the world a different way,

928
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 3: and you aren't able to have those high moments of happiness.

929
00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 3: I haven't really been able to find that in my

930
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 3: life yet, which is someone unfortunately I've been I've been

931
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 3: able to do some incredible things. I mean, I've been

932
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 3: to a lot of different countries and I've traveled the

933
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 3: world since i've been out.

934
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:50,960
Speaker 6: I've been able to go to the Super Bowl.

935
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 3: I've been able to with my father, which is really amazing,

936
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 3: and spend that weekend with them there. And you know,

937
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 3: I spend as much time as I can with my

938
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 3: family doing whatever we can.

939
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 6: There's dinner or traveling.

940
00:45:01,360 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: I have my own TV show, I wrote my own book,

941
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 3: which which was, you know, probably my greatest accomplishment personally.

942
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 3: And throughout all these things, I've never had like this,

943
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 3: this moment of intense joy, and and I didn't used

944
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 3: to be that way, you know, when I was younger,

945
00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 3: when I was in high school, and you know, I mean,

946
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:22,719
Speaker 3: I I just love life so much, like every day

947
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 3: I had intense joy. And while I do drive some

948
00:45:25,600 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: joy out of these things, of course, it's just I can't.

949
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 3: I can't get to that next level where I used

950
00:45:30,440 --> 00:45:32,400
Speaker 3: to be. And I think that's kind of what prison

951
00:45:32,440 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 3: does to people, you know. I mean, some people may

952
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:37,399
Speaker 3: be able to get out and resume a normal life.

953
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people, you know, put on

954
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 3: a strong front after what's happened to them, and I

955
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,600
Speaker 3: certainly do. But the reality is that, you know, it

956
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 3: affects you, and it impacts you. And that's one of

957
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 3: the things that impacts me most. And the reality is

958
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 3: like I walk around with this rain cloud over my head,

959
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot of times, and I'm afraid

960
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,240
Speaker 3: of the lightning, you know, And so if it's raining

961
00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 3: and thundering outside and there's lightning every I'm not going

962
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 3: to go out there because I don't want to get

963
00:46:01,239 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 3: hit by it, right, But the way the legal system

964
00:46:04,080 --> 00:46:06,839
Speaker 3: affects a human being in these situations, and you see

965
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 3: how humans act and everything, you know, this can happen

966
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 3: to you or somebody you love.

967
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:13,080
Speaker 6: It's like they could come right now and kick in

968
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 6: the door and arrest you. They could do it to me,

969
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 6: They could do it to anybody.

970
00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 3: And so I walk around with this this cloud over

971
00:46:18,280 --> 00:46:21,759
Speaker 3: my head and you know, I could get hit by

972
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 3: that lightning at any moment, and there's nothing I can do.

973
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 3: I can't there is no indoors, right, I could be

974
00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:26,960
Speaker 3: in another country.

975
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,480
Speaker 6: It could happen, So it is. It is frightening.

976
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 3: So yeah, I mean your happy moment, it's hard to describe.

977
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 3: I I love life and I enjoy life, but for me,

978
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 3: my happiest moments are giving back because it makes me

979
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 3: feel like I'm protecting myself in a way as well,

980
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: and it gets rid of that cloud a bit because

981
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 3: hopefully it's turning this thing around that impacts us all.

982
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 4: What about the moment of exoneration.

983
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,319
Speaker 3: Yeah, I wish I could say that was amazing, you know,

984
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 3: and that you know, you really expect it would be

985
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 3: in everything.

986
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 6: But that was hell for me. I didn't know what

987
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,760
Speaker 6: was going on. I didn't know if I was actually

988
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 6: gonna be let out.

989
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 3: A lot of times they will take you back to

990
00:47:08,560 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 3: the county jail and then just read you your rights

991
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 3: and recharge you and then put you in the count

992
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:14,879
Speaker 3: of jail for another year and a half. I didn't

993
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:16,960
Speaker 3: know any of that what was going to happen until

994
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 3: I watched my parents walk through the sally Port door.

995
00:47:20,719 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 3: And I'm still sitting in the back of a van

996
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,680
Speaker 3: in a cage with shackles on and an orange jumpsuit, and.

997
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 6: That's when I realized it was over.

998
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: So, I mean, it felt good, but I still like,

999
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 3: I don't know if these people are gonna come kick

1000
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 3: my door. On the next day, I was literally looking

1001
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 3: out my windows every time I thought I heard something

1002
00:47:35,920 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: for the next six months. And so that's that's the

1003
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:42,920
Speaker 3: way these things impact people. And you know, I think, now,

1004
00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:45,839
Speaker 3: obviously there's enough facts to protect me, and I think

1005
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 3: I am safe, but I know that just happens to

1006
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 3: other people.

1007
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 6: So it's yeah, man, it's good that.

1008
00:47:52,960 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 3: Some people can enjoy it, But I've looked so much

1009
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 3: into our legal system and seen what's happened to so

1010
00:47:57,160 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 3: many other people like Brian Ferguson.

1011
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 6: You know, he was exonerating. They wanted to retry him

1012
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:03,439
Speaker 6: and everything.

1013
00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 3: And basically forced him into taking an alpha plea.

1014
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:10,359
Speaker 6: It's situations like that that really don't allow you.

1015
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 3: To necessarily live your life to the fullest. And I

1016
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: think as time goes on, you get better. But here

1017
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 3: we are four years and I still have all these considerations.

1018
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 4: So let's talk about your book, all right, So tell

1019
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:23,840
Speaker 4: us about the book and then any other final thoughts

1020
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 4: that you have.

1021
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my book Stronger, Faster, Smarter. I wrote it

1022
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 3: in my last five months in prison. It is one

1023
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 3: of my greatest achievements. I just wanted to see if

1024
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:34,879
Speaker 3: I could write a book, and I saw so many

1025
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 3: people working out really hard, but they weren't getting where

1026
00:48:38,239 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 3: they wanted. They weren't accomplishing their goals, and I realized

1027
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 3: that they're not educating themselves on what to do in

1028
00:48:43,880 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 3: the fitness world. So I came up with this plan

1029
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:48,160
Speaker 3: of doing like basically.

1030
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 6: Six main moves.

1031
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 3: You eat it right, eat a certain way, and then

1032
00:48:51,600 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: educate yourself and you'll be able to accomplish whatever fitness

1033
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 3: goals you want, That's what the book is kind of about.

1034
00:48:57,239 --> 00:48:59,000
Speaker 3: But I tied it in with my experience in prison

1035
00:48:59,040 --> 00:49:01,399
Speaker 3: and how I I didn't know that ten years ago.

1036
00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 3: You know, I didn't know how to get in shape.

1037
00:49:03,440 --> 00:49:05,839
Speaker 3: I had to figure it out to survive. And if

1038
00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:08,880
Speaker 3: I could do it in that environment, then certainly everyone

1039
00:49:08,960 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 3: can wherever they're.

1040
00:49:09,760 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 6: At in the life. And so that's what it's about.

1041
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 3: Man. It's a hopeful book that has some good information.

1042
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 3: I think that can help people achieve their goals.

1043
00:49:16,440 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 4: Get the book great, read, stronger, faster, or smarter. Get stronger, faster,

1044
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 4: and smarter than Ryan Ferguson way. He was able to

1045
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 4: do it in prison, so I guess the rest of

1046
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 4: us have no excuse. And Ryan, any final thoughts that

1047
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:30,799
Speaker 4: you want to share, you.

1048
00:49:30,760 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 6: Know, my final thoughts are just be aware. As Jason

1049
00:49:34,560 --> 00:49:36,479
Speaker 6: was saying earlier, You know, when you look at.

1050
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,080
Speaker 3: These cases, always question what you're reading, Always question what

1051
00:49:40,120 --> 00:49:43,480
Speaker 3: you're watching. The best thing we can do is educate ourselves, right.

1052
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 3: Don't take anyone's word as the truth. Don't take it

1053
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 3: as gospel. Whether it's your police or prosecutors, your local newspaper, whatever,

1054
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 3: look into it.

1055
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 6: Yourself.

1056
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:57,160
Speaker 3: These are really interesting cases. They're very important and they

1057
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:00,360
Speaker 3: impact us all and I think that each one of

1058
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,680
Speaker 3: us can do a lot to change the way our

1059
00:50:02,719 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: legal system operates. And it is for ourselves, it's for

1060
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:07,760
Speaker 3: our youth, it's for everyone.

1061
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,560
Speaker 6: So yeah, it's it's it's amazing.

1062
00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 3: I think the more you loo get into it, the

1063
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 3: more you're going to be intrigued, and the more you're

1064
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,240
Speaker 3: gonna want to want to get involved.

1065
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:19,960
Speaker 4: You've been listening to a very special episode of Wrongful

1066
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:26,799
Speaker 4: Conviction with a very special person, my friend Ryan Ferguson. Ryan,

1067
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,320
Speaker 4: thank you for coming and sharing your thoughts and wisdom,

1068
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 4: and once again the book is stronger, faster, smarter.

1069
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 6: Great.

1070
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:36,280
Speaker 3: Thanks Jason Man. Thanks for all that you do. Seriously,

1071
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 3: like you lead by example and I appreciate that. What

1072
00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,440
Speaker 3: I just said is, you know, go out there and

1073
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 3: do what you can.

1074
00:50:42,160 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 6: That's what you've been doing. And uh and there's a.

1075
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:45,880
Speaker 3: Lot you could do that you know, you could not

1076
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 3: care about any of this, and it's amazing to see

1077
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:47,920
Speaker 3: what you do.

1078
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:49,919
Speaker 6: Man. You give me a lot of hope. So thanks

1079
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 6: for having me. It was an honor and uh, yeah.

1080
00:50:54,560 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 4: Right it on. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review.

1081
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,200
Speaker 4: Wherever you get your podcasts, it really helps. And I'm

1082
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,839
Speaker 4: a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really

1083
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 4: hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause

1084
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 4: and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence

1085
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 4: Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved.

1086
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Speaker 4: I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and

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Speaker 4: Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three

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Speaker 4: time OSCAR nominatede composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow

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Speaker 4: us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at

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Speaker 4: Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a

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Speaker 4: production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal

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Speaker 4: Company Number one