WEBVTT - Electricity for the Developing World is Solvable 0:00:15.076 --> 0:00:22.676 Pushkin, I may have Higgins and this is solvable. Interviews 0:00:22.716 --> 0:00:25.796 with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to 0:00:25.916 --> 0:00:30.716 solve the world's biggest problems. My solvable is to take 0:00:30.836 --> 0:00:33.796 energy to where communities are. We are not going to 0:00:33.836 --> 0:00:37.476 solve poverty in the twenty first century if we don't 0:00:37.556 --> 0:00:42.876 solve energy poverty. This is a truly energizing conversation between 0:00:42.876 --> 0:00:49.076 an Applebaum and Ashvin Diale about well energy. The solvable 0:00:49.076 --> 0:00:53.076 this episode is how to bring reliable electricity to rural 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:58.396 communities across India and Africa. Ashvin leads the Rockefeller Foundation's 0:00:58.436 --> 0:01:02.796 effort to not only end energy poverty, but also to 0:01:03.036 --> 0:01:08.596 unleash economic opportunity across the world. One point two billion 0:01:08.716 --> 0:01:13.676 people do not have electricity. If you've experienced living without electricity, 0:01:13.716 --> 0:01:16.716 even for a day or two, you'll know how frustrating 0:01:16.756 --> 0:01:21.036 it is, how small tasks suddenly become huge and everything 0:01:21.076 --> 0:01:25.756 takes so much longer. On a bigger scale, energy poverty 0:01:25.916 --> 0:01:29.836 is a massive impediment to sustained economic and social growth. 0:01:30.036 --> 0:01:33.876 The alternatives to electricity are not ideal. Nearly three billion 0:01:33.916 --> 0:01:37.956 people cook or heat their homes by burning polluting fuels 0:01:37.956 --> 0:01:41.156 like wood, and of course that results in air pollution 0:01:41.236 --> 0:01:47.036 that causes widespread health problems. Now things are improving, just slowly. 0:01:47.996 --> 0:01:51.316 According to the latest data from the UN, eighty five 0:01:51.476 --> 0:01:55.156 percent of the global population now has access to basic 0:01:55.236 --> 0:01:59.476 electricity services. Mostly this has been down to government's efforts 0:01:59.476 --> 0:02:02.876 in extending national grids as well as some off gride 0:02:02.876 --> 0:02:07.516 decentralized projects. But for Ashvin diale the challenges to reach 0:02:07.636 --> 0:02:13.156 every last person. Ashman leads the Rockefeller Foundations Global Smart 0:02:13.236 --> 0:02:17.636 Power Initiative. He has overseen the Foundations investments in renewable 0:02:17.756 --> 0:02:20.956 energy mini grades in India and it's working to achieve 0:02:20.996 --> 0:02:24.556 electrification for everybody in India, no matter where they live. 0:02:25.196 --> 0:02:27.476 You think this is something that everyone would be on 0:02:27.516 --> 0:02:30.956 board for, you know, But Ashvin says that's not the case. 0:02:31.356 --> 0:02:34.636 Have you ever heard of the diesel mafia. Well, let's 0:02:34.676 --> 0:02:37.516 take a listen and I'll speak to you after. When 0:02:37.556 --> 0:02:41.356 people speak about something so vast as a billion people 0:02:41.396 --> 0:02:45.076 without electricity, a lot of people would just be distressed 0:02:45.116 --> 0:02:47.116 by that. They would think this is too big a problem. 0:02:47.196 --> 0:02:49.996 I can't solve it, I can't think about it. When 0:02:50.036 --> 0:02:54.236 you originally approached this problem, how did you think about it. 0:02:54.276 --> 0:02:56.596 What led you to the solutions that you found. Did 0:02:56.596 --> 0:02:58.756 you break up the problem, did you took a piece 0:02:58.796 --> 0:03:02.996 of it? What was the thought process that you went through. Well, 0:03:03.036 --> 0:03:05.836 I think the first thing I really thought about is 0:03:05.956 --> 0:03:08.236 why is this even a problem? Why do we care 0:03:08.436 --> 0:03:11.276 about the fact that a billion people don't have access 0:03:11.316 --> 0:03:14.236 to electricity? When you look at the world around you 0:03:14.276 --> 0:03:17.436 today and you see how economies are more interconnected. When 0:03:17.436 --> 0:03:20.756 you see how what you do in a village can 0:03:20.836 --> 0:03:23.476 be connected to what's happening in the markets in the 0:03:23.556 --> 0:03:25.836 nearby towns, and then what's happening in the cities when 0:03:25.836 --> 0:03:29.076 you look at the level of international trade. The pathway 0:03:29.076 --> 0:03:33.156 to prosperity is in fact an energy dependent pathway. If 0:03:33.196 --> 0:03:35.276 you want to move a little bit up the valued 0:03:35.356 --> 0:03:38.436 chain as a farmer, you need to have some processing. 0:03:38.516 --> 0:03:40.716 You need to have some cold storage, you need to 0:03:40.756 --> 0:03:44.956 have some transportation, you need to have irrigation, all of 0:03:44.996 --> 0:03:50.116 these things that slowly incrementally allow a smallholder in rural 0:03:50.236 --> 0:03:54.076 Uganda or in Bihar in India to actually move up 0:03:54.196 --> 0:03:57.116 the ladder. Once you sort of get your head around why, 0:03:57.956 --> 0:03:59.956 then you start to kind of break it down and say, well, 0:03:59.996 --> 0:04:02.596 why isn't it getting fixed. Why are there a billion people? 0:04:02.756 --> 0:04:05.596 And yes, it can seem daunting, but if you think 0:04:05.596 --> 0:04:08.956 back twenty years ago, probably four billion people didn't have 0:04:09.116 --> 0:04:13.196 access to any form of communications. The world was waiting 0:04:13.316 --> 0:04:17.156 for landlines to reach the farthest points of every part 0:04:17.196 --> 0:04:22.676 of India or southern Africa. And then along came mobile technology, 0:04:22.996 --> 0:04:27.676 and within a generation or less, almost everyone on the 0:04:27.756 --> 0:04:31.836 planet is able to access communications, is able to speak 0:04:31.876 --> 0:04:35.836 to people, is able to download information. So this possibility 0:04:35.876 --> 0:04:39.076 of disruption and the possibility of applying the latest that 0:04:39.116 --> 0:04:42.836 we have in technology to another sector like energy, was 0:04:42.876 --> 0:04:46.396 something that we started to really experiment with and look 0:04:46.436 --> 0:04:49.396 at quite deeply seven or eight years ago, as we 0:04:49.436 --> 0:04:53.116 saw the price of solar technology coming down, as we 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:57.636 saw new small companies starting to experiment with becoming essentially 0:04:57.756 --> 0:05:02.476 stand alone utilities providers of electricity into communities that the 0:05:02.516 --> 0:05:05.276 big companies, the big utilities just weren't prepared to go 0:05:05.396 --> 0:05:07.796 because they saw them as loss making and we saw 0:05:07.836 --> 0:05:10.956 an opportunity. And it's from there that we really started 0:05:10.996 --> 0:05:14.396 to build our understanding of what the problem is, how 0:05:14.436 --> 0:05:16.636 it could be solved, and the role that we could 0:05:16.676 --> 0:05:19.716 play in it, and the solution you saw was to 0:05:19.916 --> 0:05:24.236 use smaller units of energy or smaller kinds of energy generation, 0:05:24.316 --> 0:05:28.636 including just individual solar cells. People can have individual small 0:05:28.676 --> 0:05:30.796 sources of energy rather than needing to be connected to 0:05:30.796 --> 0:05:33.916 a big grid. So yes, lighting in the home is 0:05:33.956 --> 0:05:36.516 extremely important, you know, for a child to do their 0:05:36.956 --> 0:05:39.836 studies at night, for women to feel safe, and you know, 0:05:39.916 --> 0:05:42.556 just for your personal quality of life to be able 0:05:42.596 --> 0:05:45.716 to plug in a fan so that you can stay 0:05:45.716 --> 0:05:48.596 cool in often what are extremely hot climates, to be 0:05:48.596 --> 0:05:50.836 able to charge your mobile phone that we talked about, 0:05:50.956 --> 0:05:53.316 you know, not being available twenty years ago. Those are 0:05:53.316 --> 0:05:56.956 all extremely important facets of sort of social life and 0:05:56.996 --> 0:06:00.956 well being that are extremely extremely important. But if you 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:03.916 also want to power irrigation pumps, if you also want 0:06:03.916 --> 0:06:07.196 to allow a carpenter to use mechanized tools, if you 0:06:07.236 --> 0:06:10.596 also want to help a small collective of farmers do 0:06:10.676 --> 0:06:13.796 their processing of their wheat, the grinding of their wheat 0:06:13.916 --> 0:06:16.276 on site so that they get a better price, you 0:06:16.356 --> 0:06:19.716 need a slightly higher grade of electricity than just what 0:06:19.796 --> 0:06:22.076 a home system can provide. So that took us to 0:06:22.156 --> 0:06:27.836 what we call minigrids. These are essentially anywhere between twenty 0:06:27.956 --> 0:06:33.156 to five hundred kilowat, so less than a megawatt standalone 0:06:33.956 --> 0:06:38.556 power systems. They have solar panels, they have the power electronics, 0:06:38.556 --> 0:06:41.036 and you have a little grid maybe one or two 0:06:41.116 --> 0:06:45.516 kilometer radius, supplying the village, supplying the homes, supplying the businesses, 0:06:46.116 --> 0:06:49.636 and sort of decoupled from the national grid. That's the 0:06:49.716 --> 0:06:53.516 sort of area that we felt was most important because 0:06:53.516 --> 0:06:58.076 it brought both the economic development opportunity together with improving 0:06:58.196 --> 0:07:01.836 quality of life inside the home. Right, So these aren't 0:07:01.876 --> 0:07:06.276 individual power sources. It's a mini a small power source 0:07:06.276 --> 0:07:08.716 for a small area, typically for a village. Let's say 0:07:08.716 --> 0:07:11.676 it's a ville with two hundred households. That's a thousand people. 0:07:11.756 --> 0:07:15.556 You have one system. It may serve say a hundred 0:07:15.556 --> 0:07:18.556 of those households because the other hundred maybe still can't 0:07:18.556 --> 0:07:22.956 afford this power. It'll serve twenty or thirty businesses, maybe 0:07:23.036 --> 0:07:26.316 twenty or thirty shops in that area. Sometimes it'll even 0:07:26.356 --> 0:07:30.516 serve a cell tower that was previously dependent on diesel 0:07:30.916 --> 0:07:33.876 in order to operate. So, yes, these are small systems, 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:36.676 but they're larger than the individual homes, and so they 0:07:36.716 --> 0:07:41.596 need an ecosystem of companies and government policies and other 0:07:41.636 --> 0:07:46.796 things to be available in order for the sector to flourish. 0:07:47.076 --> 0:07:50.276 Was there a particular technological breakthrough that was necessary. Is 0:07:50.316 --> 0:07:52.756 there some form of energy generation that you couldn't have 0:07:52.796 --> 0:07:54.436 done twenty years ago that you can do now that 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:56.836 makes this work? Well? I mean, I think the biggest 0:07:56.876 --> 0:08:00.636 breakthrough we've seen is with solar. We've all in different ways, 0:08:00.676 --> 0:08:04.956 seen the amazing and dramatic, frankly drop in cost of 0:08:05.116 --> 0:08:08.076 solar and the efficiency of solar panels over the last 0:08:09.156 --> 0:08:11.236 fifteen to twenty years. It's come down by sort of 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:14.796 almost ten x so technology per se, but it's the 0:08:14.876 --> 0:08:18.516 price of technology that's really been most important that started 0:08:18.636 --> 0:08:21.316 to allow us to get to that sweet spot where 0:08:21.756 --> 0:08:26.036 these systems can actually work. They can generate power at 0:08:26.036 --> 0:08:28.636 a price that communities are able to pay and willing 0:08:28.676 --> 0:08:30.876 to pay because they see the benefits for themselves and 0:08:30.916 --> 0:08:34.876 they see the improved incomes. They're still expensive and they 0:08:34.956 --> 0:08:37.676 still need to come down further. So there are still 0:08:37.796 --> 0:08:41.476 things that have to happen for this to absolutely spread 0:08:41.516 --> 0:08:43.996 like wildfire, if you like, the way mobile phones did 0:08:44.076 --> 0:08:47.396 twenty years ago. And that's essentially the thing that we're 0:08:47.396 --> 0:08:49.436 trying to solve is how do we take this great idea, 0:08:49.516 --> 0:08:52.636 this great opportunity, and get it to the point where 0:08:52.676 --> 0:08:56.516 it can truly take off. Is that really a commercial question? 0:08:56.636 --> 0:08:58.236 Is it to do with selling it, Is it to 0:08:58.276 --> 0:09:00.716 do with distributing it? What are the big obstacles to 0:09:01.516 --> 0:09:05.236 installing these minigrids? So the installing of the minigrid is 0:09:05.276 --> 0:09:08.396 actually the simplest part of it. It is a commercial challenge. 0:09:08.596 --> 0:09:11.676 You are trying to serve the poorest end of the market. 0:09:11.836 --> 0:09:16.076 These are consumers that utilities don't go to because they 0:09:16.116 --> 0:09:18.876 see them as loss making for every unit of electricity 0:09:18.916 --> 0:09:24.036 they sell. It's understanding demand. Is treating low income households 0:09:24.116 --> 0:09:28.836 in rural Myanma or India as consumers as an addressable market. 0:09:29.196 --> 0:09:33.196 But understanding that market, what do they actually need? How 0:09:33.276 --> 0:09:36.876 much can they pay? How do you supply it in 0:09:36.916 --> 0:09:39.596 a way that is flexible to their needs? So not 0:09:39.676 --> 0:09:42.676 just saying here's a meter consumer, as much power as 0:09:42.756 --> 0:09:44.116 you want, and we'll give you a bill at the 0:09:44.196 --> 0:09:45.396 end of the month, and you know, all of a 0:09:45.436 --> 0:09:48.196 sudden you realize you can't afford it. But actually, maybe 0:09:48.196 --> 0:09:50.356 what you need is a package so that you can 0:09:50.436 --> 0:09:53.996 create over time, as a minigrid operator, a viable business. 0:09:54.316 --> 0:09:58.516 That's probably one of the biggest challenges, and honestly, we're 0:09:58.556 --> 0:10:01.676 not there yet. We still need to innovate. We need 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:03.756 to drive prices down, we need to get better at 0:10:03.796 --> 0:10:07.716 predicting what the demand will be in any given village 0:10:07.716 --> 0:10:11.676 so that people can size the systems appropriately. And we 0:10:11.716 --> 0:10:14.156 also need help from a government in the sense of 0:10:14.916 --> 0:10:18.916 seeing this as part of their solution. Governments take on 0:10:18.996 --> 0:10:22.516 electrification as sort of a national mission. This is what 0:10:22.556 --> 0:10:25.676 they do. You have ministries of energy and ministries of electricity, 0:10:26.236 --> 0:10:29.756 but they have tended to adopt a single solution, which 0:10:29.796 --> 0:10:31.956 is we'll extend the grid and we'll keep extending it 0:10:31.996 --> 0:10:34.556 as quickly as we can, and you know it'll get 0:10:34.596 --> 0:10:36.116 to you when it gets to you, and there's a 0:10:36.156 --> 0:10:39.316 massive opportunity cost around that. So it's really the dialogue 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:41.436 with government to saying, look, we can build the grid 0:10:41.516 --> 0:10:45.436 from the outside in, but you need to create a 0:10:45.436 --> 0:10:48.716 policy environment that allows a many grid developer to go 0:10:48.796 --> 0:10:51.876 out somewhere and not worry that in five years if 0:10:51.916 --> 0:10:54.756 the grid arrives, they suddenly have a stranded asset. You 0:10:54.796 --> 0:10:56.636 may need to look at what sort of fiscal or 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:59.556 tax incentives you can give to offset some of the 0:10:59.596 --> 0:11:03.556 commercial challenges that still exist. And most importantly, we need 0:11:03.596 --> 0:11:08.276 to plan electrification as a combination of grid and off 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:12.836 grid and choose the best solutions in the areas where 0:11:12.836 --> 0:11:14.796 they make the most sense. If you have a village 0:11:14.876 --> 0:11:16.436 right next to the grid, it probably makes sense to 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.036 just extend the grid there. But if you have another 0:11:19.036 --> 0:11:22.316 community of a thousand people ten kilometers away from the grid, 0:11:22.876 --> 0:11:25.196 it actually doesn't make sense to extend the grid five 0:11:25.276 --> 0:11:27.436 years from now. It makes a lot more sense to 0:11:27.476 --> 0:11:31.476 create the incentives and the policies that allow a minigrid 0:11:31.516 --> 0:11:35.516 operator to set up an independent system there and rather 0:11:35.556 --> 0:11:37.676 than that community waiting five or six or seven or 0:11:37.716 --> 0:11:40.196 eight years, you can have one of these systems up 0:11:40.236 --> 0:11:42.676 in three months. But it takes collaboration. It takes us 0:11:42.676 --> 0:11:46.236 at a public private partnership sort of mindset for this 0:11:46.316 --> 0:11:49.156 to happen. And that's a lot about what I'm trying 0:11:49.196 --> 0:11:54.036 to inspire in working with both companies as well as investors, 0:11:54.076 --> 0:11:56.796 as well as governments, and then, of course, most importantly, 0:11:56.836 --> 0:12:00.996 community organizations on the ground. And do you have a 0:12:01.076 --> 0:12:03.676 set of tactics. Is there a way to talk to 0:12:03.796 --> 0:12:06.476 governments to seeing it from your point of view. You 0:12:06.476 --> 0:12:08.396 can have all of the evidence in the world, right, 0:12:08.476 --> 0:12:10.476 you can put together all the reports you want, all 0:12:10.476 --> 0:12:12.836 of the policy papers, you can go into your sort 0:12:12.836 --> 0:12:15.676 of dialogues with government, and we do all of that, 0:12:16.436 --> 0:12:19.676 but there's nothing like sort of seeing is believing. So 0:12:19.756 --> 0:12:26.276 actually bringing regulators, people from the distribution companies and the utilities, 0:12:26.596 --> 0:12:31.036 from the ministries to these sites, showing them what many 0:12:31.076 --> 0:12:33.836 grid operators are going and saying, look, you should actually 0:12:33.836 --> 0:12:36.476 be claiming this. You should be saying this is part 0:12:36.516 --> 0:12:40.436 of the government's effort to electrify everyone. So one tactic 0:12:40.556 --> 0:12:43.396 is just the seeing is believing, right, There is also 0:12:43.476 --> 0:12:45.796 just making the business case for it. From a kind 0:12:45.796 --> 0:12:48.716 of national economic development point of view, there is an 0:12:48.716 --> 0:12:53.036 opportunity cost to not electrifying a village in today's modern economy. 0:12:53.396 --> 0:12:56.396 It means that village can't participate in all of the 0:12:56.436 --> 0:12:59.356 opportunities that are out there, whether it's in the agricultural 0:12:59.516 --> 0:13:02.516 sector or off farm. I think the thing that often 0:13:02.596 --> 0:13:04.996 resonates the most with government is when you say, look, 0:13:05.036 --> 0:13:08.356 this is actually a development play. This is not just 0:13:08.396 --> 0:13:13.716 an infrast structure project. This is about unleashing new economic opportunity. 0:13:13.756 --> 0:13:16.516 It's about addressing the poverty challenge that you as a 0:13:16.556 --> 0:13:20.356 government care centrally about. So it's the narrative here that 0:13:20.396 --> 0:13:24.196 we have to see this as a national development effort, 0:13:24.276 --> 0:13:28.556 not just an infrastructure effort and the human development effort. 0:13:29.316 --> 0:13:31.476 And then thirdly, you have to show the hard economics 0:13:31.516 --> 0:13:35.076 of it and show that you can actually save money 0:13:35.236 --> 0:13:39.716 overall if you are more thoughtful about how you combine 0:13:39.956 --> 0:13:44.836 grid investments and off grid investments, blending both the best 0:13:44.876 --> 0:13:46.956 of the public what the public sector can bring and 0:13:47.356 --> 0:13:49.796 what the private sector can bring. Just to give you 0:13:50.036 --> 0:13:53.076 an example, you know, there is this idea of a 0:13:53.196 --> 0:13:56.316 results based financing. You know, so no country in the 0:13:56.356 --> 0:14:01.596 world has actually electrified its entire population without some level 0:14:01.596 --> 0:14:05.756 of government investment and public finance. And what we're saying 0:14:05.836 --> 0:14:09.756 is you can incentivize through these results based finance schemes 0:14:10.156 --> 0:14:13.076 private operators to go and set these mini grids up 0:14:13.156 --> 0:14:16.996 in communities that your grid operators are not ready to 0:14:17.036 --> 0:14:19.916 go to and for a fraction of the cost of 0:14:19.996 --> 0:14:22.196 the subsidy that you would provide to the grid, instead 0:14:22.236 --> 0:14:25.036 providers as some sort of performance based incentive to a 0:14:25.036 --> 0:14:28.676 private company. Let them go there, and you know, you're 0:14:28.716 --> 0:14:32.316 creating a quicker solution, it can be more sustainable sort 0:14:32.316 --> 0:14:35.196 of commercially in the medium term, and eventually you can 0:14:35.236 --> 0:14:39.516 integrate this all back into a single what we would 0:14:39.516 --> 0:14:41.796 call a sort of a smart grid, which is a 0:14:41.836 --> 0:14:43.876 grid that you know, where you can have flows going 0:14:43.996 --> 0:14:47.316 both ways between the consumers and the generators of power. 0:14:47.796 --> 0:14:50.076 And once you put that sort of vision in front 0:14:50.076 --> 0:14:54.076 of ministries and government officials, yeah, you know, you start 0:14:54.116 --> 0:14:58.836 to find eyes sort of lighting up and champions emerging. 0:14:59.116 --> 0:15:01.516 Tell me about your work with private entrepreneurs. Is that 0:15:01.636 --> 0:15:04.316 very different from the government. Is there are there kind 0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:09.956 of buccaneering entrepreneurial people running minigrid companies whom you can 0:15:09.956 --> 0:15:12.116 offer advice to or is this something that you have 0:15:12.196 --> 0:15:14.556 to spend a lot of time persuading people that this 0:15:14.716 --> 0:15:16.716 is a good thing to do. I'd say five years 0:15:16.756 --> 0:15:18.516 ago it was a bit of a Wild West kind 0:15:18.556 --> 0:15:21.876 of feeling where there were a bunch of well intentioned 0:15:22.476 --> 0:15:25.836 social entrepreneurs and quite small companies going out and trying 0:15:25.876 --> 0:15:30.236 to you know, were just a strong conviction around renewable 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:34.476 energy and around energy access to poor communities, and you know, 0:15:34.636 --> 0:15:37.996 were largely although they were companies, they were relying a 0:15:38.076 --> 0:15:40.596 lot on grant funding to get the early proof of 0:15:40.676 --> 0:15:45.476 concepts out, and we had to certainly encourage companies at 0:15:45.476 --> 0:15:49.996 a slightly larger scale to spot the opportunity. In India. 0:15:50.196 --> 0:15:54.196 We must have spoken to I would say about seventy 0:15:54.196 --> 0:15:56.916 five to maybe as much as a hundred different companies 0:15:56.916 --> 0:15:59.556 who are in some way related to the energy space, 0:15:59.996 --> 0:16:03.556 but we're not specifically working on rural electrification. So maybe 0:16:03.636 --> 0:16:07.676 they were equipment manufacturers for some of the systems, you know, 0:16:07.756 --> 0:16:11.636 solar manufacturers, or they work companies doing energy supply to 0:16:11.676 --> 0:16:14.196 cell towers in rural areas, so they were some way 0:16:14.196 --> 0:16:16.556 connected to the ecosystem, but they hadn't quite seen this 0:16:16.596 --> 0:16:20.836 as an opportunity. That list whittled down from seventy five 0:16:20.876 --> 0:16:23.476 two hundred down to less than ten that really wanted 0:16:23.476 --> 0:16:25.916 to then get in because this was still seen as 0:16:26.156 --> 0:16:30.876 a young field, a market that was unproven and frankly 0:16:30.956 --> 0:16:33.076 high risk, and so even though we were able to 0:16:33.076 --> 0:16:36.876 provide them with concessional capital with like low cost loans, 0:16:37.356 --> 0:16:39.396 it was still a big risk for them to enter. 0:16:39.756 --> 0:16:43.276 Those that have have started to do, you know, reasonably well. 0:16:43.316 --> 0:16:47.116 The first company that we invested in India called Omnigrid 0:16:47.356 --> 0:16:51.076 micropower co operation has gone on to raise about ten 0:16:51.156 --> 0:16:53.836 times as much capital from other investors to expand their 0:16:53.836 --> 0:16:56.876 operations and are doing really well. And what about the 0:16:56.996 --> 0:17:00.036 recipients the people for whom these grids are being built. 0:17:00.236 --> 0:17:02.436 Do they say, why aren't we being connected to the 0:17:02.436 --> 0:17:06.796 main grid? Do they appreciate this kind of this innovative technology, 0:17:06.836 --> 0:17:08.196 and do they like the idea of it? Or is 0:17:08.196 --> 0:17:13.596 there some resistance? There's very little resistance if the service 0:17:13.636 --> 0:17:18.276 that's provided is high quality and it is truly customer oriented. 0:17:18.436 --> 0:17:20.916 What you tend to find is a lot of frustration 0:17:21.036 --> 0:17:24.996 with the national grids, with state owned utilities that have 0:17:25.076 --> 0:17:28.276 been providing a very erratic service, making promises that they 0:17:28.316 --> 0:17:32.316 can't then meet our experiences. Somewhere between ninety seven to 0:17:32.436 --> 0:17:36.316 ninety eight percent collection efficiency, which is basically an industry 0:17:36.396 --> 0:17:38.196 term for you know, how much of your revenue are 0:17:38.236 --> 0:17:43.836 you actually recovering on time relatively high levels of customer satisfaction. So, 0:17:44.076 --> 0:17:47.676 using industry benchmarks for customer satisfaction, you know, it's sort 0:17:47.716 --> 0:17:50.716 of seventy eighty eighty five percent, which is regarded as 0:17:51.036 --> 0:17:54.316 pretty good when you consider that most large utilities have 0:17:54.556 --> 0:17:58.476 satisfaction ratings at fifty five sixty percent, and that's probably 0:17:58.556 --> 0:18:01.036 true even in the developed world, and we're utilities in 0:18:01.476 --> 0:18:04.276 rural India and Africa used to thinking in terms of 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:08.236 customer satisfaction or was that also something you not at all? Right? 0:18:08.276 --> 0:18:11.636 I mean they saw the last mild customer as a 0:18:11.716 --> 0:18:15.196 loss making beneficiary of some government program rather than a 0:18:15.316 --> 0:18:19.956 viable consumer. So the relationship is completely different between these 0:18:19.956 --> 0:18:24.356 private companies and consumers. There is an accountability, there is 0:18:24.356 --> 0:18:28.516 a service standard that has met, there's a complaints mechanism, 0:18:28.956 --> 0:18:30.556 and at the end of the day, if you have 0:18:30.556 --> 0:18:33.996 an unhappy customer, you have a bottom line that's getting affected. 0:18:34.036 --> 0:18:38.076 So there's some sort of basic commercial incentives to perform. Now, 0:18:38.356 --> 0:18:42.356 all of that said, your original question about the grid 0:18:42.676 --> 0:18:46.436 being a preference is also an important question because grid 0:18:46.436 --> 0:18:51.396 electricity is by and large significantly cheaper because it's subsidized. 0:18:52.036 --> 0:18:55.356 So there is a larger sort of question about well, 0:18:55.476 --> 0:19:01.196 is it fair that a low income consumer in rural 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:06.116 Bihar or in rural Uganda is paying an equivalent rate 0:19:06.156 --> 0:19:09.076 per unit of electricy that is higher than what an 0:19:09.196 --> 0:19:12.996 urban consumer or a periurban consumer is paying when supplied 0:19:12.996 --> 0:19:15.036 by the grid. And I guess you know. The answer 0:19:15.076 --> 0:19:18.116 to that is fundamentally no, it's not fair. But is 0:19:18.116 --> 0:19:21.876 it beneficial to them in terms of improving their incomes, 0:19:21.916 --> 0:19:24.436 improving the quality of their life, and helping them reduce 0:19:24.516 --> 0:19:29.756 the costs of consuming alternative, dirty and expensive fuels like 0:19:29.876 --> 0:19:34.196 kerosene or diesel. Absolutely. So these are informed consumers who 0:19:34.276 --> 0:19:36.916 vote with their feet. They make the choices that they 0:19:37.036 --> 0:19:41.236 know benefit them. We must address that question over time. 0:19:41.316 --> 0:19:43.396 That's why we talk about building the grid from the 0:19:43.436 --> 0:19:46.436 outside in and eventually integrating because at the end of 0:19:46.436 --> 0:19:48.796 the day, in ten years time, not only do we 0:19:48.836 --> 0:19:52.116 want everyone to have access to electricity, but it needs 0:19:52.156 --> 0:19:54.236 to be affordable, it needs to be reliable, it needs 0:19:54.276 --> 0:19:57.716 to be equitable, and so we still have big, big 0:19:57.796 --> 0:20:03.076 questions to deal with. And doessolar itself have an appeal? 0:20:03.156 --> 0:20:05.196 Do people say, wow, this is a kind of energy. 0:20:05.236 --> 0:20:07.716 They can see that it's clean, it doesn't produce smoke, 0:20:08.436 --> 0:20:11.036 it comes from the son That is that appealing or 0:20:11.076 --> 0:20:13.156 is that does that give people the sense that it's 0:20:13.196 --> 0:20:18.476 not not reliable. It's appealing to governments, it's appealing to investors, 0:20:18.516 --> 0:20:21.356 it's appealing to people who care about climate change. So 0:20:21.396 --> 0:20:23.236 it has multiple appeals. But if you look at it 0:20:23.276 --> 0:20:25.876 from the through the lens of the actual consumer sitting 0:20:25.996 --> 0:20:30.156 in their home in in one of these places, it's 0:20:30.196 --> 0:20:33.516 what is it displacing? Right, So it's not that it's solar, 0:20:33.916 --> 0:20:37.436 it's that I don't have a smoke filled room with 0:20:37.556 --> 0:20:41.236 because I'm using a kerosene lamp. If I'm a small shopkeeper, 0:20:41.876 --> 0:20:43.716 it's not that it's solar. It's that I don't have 0:20:43.756 --> 0:20:47.156 a little diesel generator right next to me, you know, 0:20:47.236 --> 0:20:50.276 making a hell of a racket and and spewing out 0:20:50.356 --> 0:20:53.676 noxious fumes. I often say, Look, these are some of 0:20:53.716 --> 0:20:57.276 the lowest consumers of energy in the world. I think 0:20:57.436 --> 0:21:00.836 we have an obligation, given where we are as a planet, 0:21:01.436 --> 0:21:03.476 to make sure that the energy system of the future 0:21:03.636 --> 0:21:07.596 is green and is sustainable, and is largely based on 0:21:07.636 --> 0:21:11.796 renewable energy. I would not put the responsibility for that 0:21:11.916 --> 0:21:14.796 transition on the shoulders of the people that we are 0:21:14.796 --> 0:21:20.156 trying to serve. We promote renewable technology with these consumers 0:21:20.196 --> 0:21:23.276 because it offers a disruptive solution to get energy to 0:21:23.396 --> 0:21:26.076 them in a way that hasn't ever happened before. Anytime 0:21:26.076 --> 0:21:29.036 you've when you've been working on this problem and trying 0:21:29.036 --> 0:21:30.716 to carry it out. Can you think of moments of 0:21:30.756 --> 0:21:34.436 real frustration? I mean are there people or companies or 0:21:34.716 --> 0:21:36.876 incidents that made you think, you know, this is never 0:21:36.916 --> 0:21:40.636 going to work or it's just not going to happen. Yeah, 0:21:40.636 --> 0:21:47.236 every day. You know, anytime you're trying to do something 0:21:47.276 --> 0:21:51.316 that is different, you often come up against forces that 0:21:51.876 --> 0:21:56.676 perhaps comfortable with the status quo. When we set up 0:21:56.716 --> 0:22:00.436 the first set of minigrids in India, you know, there 0:22:00.436 --> 0:22:03.556 were mysterious things would happen. Lines would get cut in 0:22:03.596 --> 0:22:06.476 the middle of the night, wires would be ripped down, 0:22:06.876 --> 0:22:10.996 poles would be destroyed, and we covered over time that 0:22:11.156 --> 0:22:14.716 there were interests in the diesel ecosystem in that area, 0:22:14.756 --> 0:22:18.436 the diesel mafias it's called, that wanted to see this fail. 0:22:18.996 --> 0:22:21.276 But you know, once communities start to see that they're 0:22:21.276 --> 0:22:23.636 really benefiting from it, that they actually create a sort 0:22:23.636 --> 0:22:26.156 of an almost like an invisible ring of protection around 0:22:26.156 --> 0:22:29.796 that because if the people who are ultimately consuming this 0:22:30.276 --> 0:22:34.196 want it, they find ways of making sure that it 0:22:34.196 --> 0:22:36.996 doesn't get as disrupted. So we had some of that 0:22:37.596 --> 0:22:40.516 early on. You know, the thing I worry most about 0:22:41.156 --> 0:22:43.116 is probably I mean, there's a lot of things I 0:22:43.156 --> 0:22:45.036 worry about, But there's a couple of areas where I 0:22:45.036 --> 0:22:47.436 feel like we really have to see the biggest breakthrough. 0:22:47.476 --> 0:22:51.516 One is in government and in being able to really 0:22:52.236 --> 0:22:55.356 despite all of the openness that there might be to 0:22:55.436 --> 0:22:57.836 wanting to solve this problem. There are also some fairly 0:22:57.836 --> 0:23:03.756 traditional and calcified ways of thinking about electrification. But also 0:23:04.476 --> 0:23:07.316 there are champions within all of these countries who are 0:23:07.916 --> 0:23:12.076 picking that battle. How sympathetic are the other cutting edge 0:23:12.116 --> 0:23:14.836 technology companies who are thinking about electricity and so on 0:23:14.916 --> 0:23:16.916 in different in different ways. How sympathetic are they? Is 0:23:16.996 --> 0:23:19.276 this problem? Do you have very Do you have trouble 0:23:19.316 --> 0:23:23.076 getting big companies to focus on this kind of issue? 0:23:23.356 --> 0:23:25.116 Not at all. I think there's actually it's more than 0:23:25.156 --> 0:23:28.036