1 00:00:15,076 --> 00:00:22,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin, I may have Higgins and this is solvable. Interviews 2 00:00:22,716 --> 00:00:25,796 Speaker 1: with the world's most innovative thinkers who are working to 3 00:00:25,916 --> 00:00:30,716 Speaker 1: solve the world's biggest problems. My solvable is to take 4 00:00:30,836 --> 00:00:33,796 Speaker 1: energy to where communities are. We are not going to 5 00:00:33,836 --> 00:00:37,476 Speaker 1: solve poverty in the twenty first century if we don't 6 00:00:37,556 --> 00:00:42,876 Speaker 1: solve energy poverty. This is a truly energizing conversation between 7 00:00:42,876 --> 00:00:49,076 Speaker 1: an Applebaum and Ashvin Diale about well energy. The solvable 8 00:00:49,076 --> 00:00:53,076 Speaker 1: this episode is how to bring reliable electricity to rural 9 00:00:53,116 --> 00:00:58,396 Speaker 1: communities across India and Africa. Ashvin leads the Rockefeller Foundation's 10 00:00:58,436 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: effort to not only end energy poverty, but also to 11 00:01:03,036 --> 00:01:08,596 Speaker 1: unleash economic opportunity across the world. One point two billion 12 00:01:08,716 --> 00:01:13,676 Speaker 1: people do not have electricity. If you've experienced living without electricity, 13 00:01:13,716 --> 00:01:16,716 Speaker 1: even for a day or two, you'll know how frustrating 14 00:01:16,756 --> 00:01:21,036 Speaker 1: it is, how small tasks suddenly become huge and everything 15 00:01:21,076 --> 00:01:25,756 Speaker 1: takes so much longer. On a bigger scale, energy poverty 16 00:01:25,916 --> 00:01:29,836 Speaker 1: is a massive impediment to sustained economic and social growth. 17 00:01:30,036 --> 00:01:33,876 Speaker 1: The alternatives to electricity are not ideal. Nearly three billion 18 00:01:33,916 --> 00:01:37,956 Speaker 1: people cook or heat their homes by burning polluting fuels 19 00:01:37,956 --> 00:01:41,156 Speaker 1: like wood, and of course that results in air pollution 20 00:01:41,236 --> 00:01:47,036 Speaker 1: that causes widespread health problems. Now things are improving, just slowly. 21 00:01:47,996 --> 00:01:51,316 Speaker 1: According to the latest data from the UN, eighty five 22 00:01:51,476 --> 00:01:55,156 Speaker 1: percent of the global population now has access to basic 23 00:01:55,236 --> 00:01:59,476 Speaker 1: electricity services. Mostly this has been down to government's efforts 24 00:01:59,476 --> 00:02:02,876 Speaker 1: in extending national grids as well as some off gride 25 00:02:02,876 --> 00:02:07,516 Speaker 1: decentralized projects. But for Ashvin diale the challenges to reach 26 00:02:07,636 --> 00:02:13,156 Speaker 1: every last person. Ashman leads the Rockefeller Foundations Global Smart 27 00:02:13,236 --> 00:02:17,636 Speaker 1: Power Initiative. He has overseen the Foundations investments in renewable 28 00:02:17,756 --> 00:02:20,956 Speaker 1: energy mini grades in India and it's working to achieve 29 00:02:20,996 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 1: electrification for everybody in India, no matter where they live. 30 00:02:25,196 --> 00:02:27,476 Speaker 1: You think this is something that everyone would be on 31 00:02:27,516 --> 00:02:30,956 Speaker 1: board for, you know, But Ashvin says that's not the case. 32 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:34,636 Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the diesel mafia. Well, let's 33 00:02:34,676 --> 00:02:37,516 Speaker 1: take a listen and I'll speak to you after. When 34 00:02:37,556 --> 00:02:41,356 Speaker 1: people speak about something so vast as a billion people 35 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:45,076 Speaker 1: without electricity, a lot of people would just be distressed 36 00:02:45,116 --> 00:02:47,116 Speaker 1: by that. They would think this is too big a problem. 37 00:02:47,196 --> 00:02:49,996 Speaker 1: I can't solve it, I can't think about it. When 38 00:02:50,036 --> 00:02:54,236 Speaker 1: you originally approached this problem, how did you think about it. 39 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:56,596 Speaker 1: What led you to the solutions that you found. Did 40 00:02:56,596 --> 00:02:58,756 Speaker 1: you break up the problem, did you took a piece 41 00:02:58,796 --> 00:03:02,996 Speaker 1: of it? What was the thought process that you went through. Well, 42 00:03:03,036 --> 00:03:05,836 Speaker 1: I think the first thing I really thought about is 43 00:03:05,956 --> 00:03:08,236 Speaker 1: why is this even a problem? Why do we care 44 00:03:08,436 --> 00:03:11,276 Speaker 1: about the fact that a billion people don't have access 45 00:03:11,316 --> 00:03:14,236 Speaker 1: to electricity? When you look at the world around you 46 00:03:14,276 --> 00:03:17,436 Speaker 1: today and you see how economies are more interconnected. When 47 00:03:17,436 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: you see how what you do in a village can 48 00:03:20,836 --> 00:03:23,476 Speaker 1: be connected to what's happening in the markets in the 49 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:25,836 Speaker 1: nearby towns, and then what's happening in the cities when 50 00:03:25,836 --> 00:03:29,076 Speaker 1: you look at the level of international trade. The pathway 51 00:03:29,076 --> 00:03:33,156 Speaker 1: to prosperity is in fact an energy dependent pathway. If 52 00:03:33,196 --> 00:03:35,276 Speaker 1: you want to move a little bit up the valued 53 00:03:35,356 --> 00:03:38,436 Speaker 1: chain as a farmer, you need to have some processing. 54 00:03:38,516 --> 00:03:40,716 Speaker 1: You need to have some cold storage, you need to 55 00:03:40,756 --> 00:03:44,956 Speaker 1: have some transportation, you need to have irrigation, all of 56 00:03:44,996 --> 00:03:50,116 Speaker 1: these things that slowly incrementally allow a smallholder in rural 57 00:03:50,236 --> 00:03:54,076 Speaker 1: Uganda or in Bihar in India to actually move up 58 00:03:54,196 --> 00:03:57,116 Speaker 1: the ladder. Once you sort of get your head around why, 59 00:03:57,956 --> 00:03:59,956 Speaker 1: then you start to kind of break it down and say, well, 60 00:03:59,996 --> 00:04:02,596 Speaker 1: why isn't it getting fixed. Why are there a billion people? 61 00:04:02,756 --> 00:04:05,596 Speaker 1: And yes, it can seem daunting, but if you think 62 00:04:05,596 --> 00:04:08,956 Speaker 1: back twenty years ago, probably four billion people didn't have 63 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:13,196 Speaker 1: access to any form of communications. The world was waiting 64 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 1: for landlines to reach the farthest points of every part 65 00:04:17,196 --> 00:04:22,676 Speaker 1: of India or southern Africa. And then along came mobile technology, 66 00:04:22,996 --> 00:04:27,676 Speaker 1: and within a generation or less, almost everyone on the 67 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:31,836 Speaker 1: planet is able to access communications, is able to speak 68 00:04:31,876 --> 00:04:35,836 Speaker 1: to people, is able to download information. So this possibility 69 00:04:35,876 --> 00:04:39,076 Speaker 1: of disruption and the possibility of applying the latest that 70 00:04:39,116 --> 00:04:42,836 Speaker 1: we have in technology to another sector like energy, was 71 00:04:42,876 --> 00:04:46,396 Speaker 1: something that we started to really experiment with and look 72 00:04:46,436 --> 00:04:49,396 Speaker 1: at quite deeply seven or eight years ago, as we 73 00:04:49,436 --> 00:04:53,116 Speaker 1: saw the price of solar technology coming down, as we 74 00:04:53,156 --> 00:04:57,636 Speaker 1: saw new small companies starting to experiment with becoming essentially 75 00:04:57,756 --> 00:05:02,476 Speaker 1: stand alone utilities providers of electricity into communities that the 76 00:05:02,516 --> 00:05:05,276 Speaker 1: big companies, the big utilities just weren't prepared to go 77 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:07,796 Speaker 1: because they saw them as loss making and we saw 78 00:05:07,836 --> 00:05:10,956 Speaker 1: an opportunity. And it's from there that we really started 79 00:05:10,996 --> 00:05:14,396 Speaker 1: to build our understanding of what the problem is, how 80 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:16,636 Speaker 1: it could be solved, and the role that we could 81 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,716 Speaker 1: play in it, and the solution you saw was to 82 00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:24,236 Speaker 1: use smaller units of energy or smaller kinds of energy generation, 83 00:05:24,316 --> 00:05:28,636 Speaker 1: including just individual solar cells. People can have individual small 84 00:05:28,676 --> 00:05:30,796 Speaker 1: sources of energy rather than needing to be connected to 85 00:05:30,796 --> 00:05:33,916 Speaker 1: a big grid. So yes, lighting in the home is 86 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:36,516 Speaker 1: extremely important, you know, for a child to do their 87 00:05:36,956 --> 00:05:39,836 Speaker 1: studies at night, for women to feel safe, and you know, 88 00:05:39,916 --> 00:05:42,556 Speaker 1: just for your personal quality of life to be able 89 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:45,716 Speaker 1: to plug in a fan so that you can stay 90 00:05:45,716 --> 00:05:48,596 Speaker 1: cool in often what are extremely hot climates, to be 91 00:05:48,596 --> 00:05:50,836 Speaker 1: able to charge your mobile phone that we talked about, 92 00:05:50,956 --> 00:05:53,316 Speaker 1: you know, not being available twenty years ago. Those are 93 00:05:53,316 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 1: all extremely important facets of sort of social life and 94 00:05:56,996 --> 00:06:00,956 Speaker 1: well being that are extremely extremely important. But if you 95 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:03,916 Speaker 1: also want to power irrigation pumps, if you also want 96 00:06:03,916 --> 00:06:07,196 Speaker 1: to allow a carpenter to use mechanized tools, if you 97 00:06:07,236 --> 00:06:10,596 Speaker 1: also want to help a small collective of farmers do 98 00:06:10,676 --> 00:06:13,796 Speaker 1: their processing of their wheat, the grinding of their wheat 99 00:06:13,916 --> 00:06:16,276 Speaker 1: on site so that they get a better price, you 100 00:06:16,356 --> 00:06:19,716 Speaker 1: need a slightly higher grade of electricity than just what 101 00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:22,076 Speaker 1: a home system can provide. So that took us to 102 00:06:22,156 --> 00:06:27,836 Speaker 1: what we call minigrids. These are essentially anywhere between twenty 103 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:33,156 Speaker 1: to five hundred kilowat, so less than a megawatt standalone 104 00:06:33,956 --> 00:06:38,556 Speaker 1: power systems. They have solar panels, they have the power electronics, 105 00:06:38,556 --> 00:06:41,036 Speaker 1: and you have a little grid maybe one or two 106 00:06:41,116 --> 00:06:45,516 Speaker 1: kilometer radius, supplying the village, supplying the homes, supplying the businesses, 107 00:06:46,116 --> 00:06:49,636 Speaker 1: and sort of decoupled from the national grid. That's the 108 00:06:49,716 --> 00:06:53,516 Speaker 1: sort of area that we felt was most important because 109 00:06:53,516 --> 00:06:58,076 Speaker 1: it brought both the economic development opportunity together with improving 110 00:06:58,196 --> 00:07:01,836 Speaker 1: quality of life inside the home. Right, So these aren't 111 00:07:01,876 --> 00:07:06,276 Speaker 1: individual power sources. It's a mini a small power source 112 00:07:06,276 --> 00:07:08,716 Speaker 1: for a small area, typically for a village. Let's say 113 00:07:08,716 --> 00:07:11,676 Speaker 1: it's a ville with two hundred households. That's a thousand people. 114 00:07:11,756 --> 00:07:15,556 Speaker 1: You have one system. It may serve say a hundred 115 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:18,556 Speaker 1: of those households because the other hundred maybe still can't 116 00:07:18,556 --> 00:07:22,956 Speaker 1: afford this power. It'll serve twenty or thirty businesses, maybe 117 00:07:23,036 --> 00:07:26,316 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty shops in that area. Sometimes it'll even 118 00:07:26,356 --> 00:07:30,516 Speaker 1: serve a cell tower that was previously dependent on diesel 119 00:07:30,916 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 1: in order to operate. So, yes, these are small systems, 120 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:36,676 Speaker 1: but they're larger than the individual homes, and so they 121 00:07:36,716 --> 00:07:41,596 Speaker 1: need an ecosystem of companies and government policies and other 122 00:07:41,636 --> 00:07:46,796 Speaker 1: things to be available in order for the sector to flourish. 123 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:50,276 Speaker 1: Was there a particular technological breakthrough that was necessary. Is 124 00:07:50,316 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 1: there some form of energy generation that you couldn't have 125 00:07:52,796 --> 00:07:54,436 Speaker 1: done twenty years ago that you can do now that 126 00:07:54,476 --> 00:07:56,836 Speaker 1: makes this work? Well? I mean, I think the biggest 127 00:07:56,876 --> 00:08:00,636 Speaker 1: breakthrough we've seen is with solar. We've all in different ways, 128 00:08:00,676 --> 00:08:04,956 Speaker 1: seen the amazing and dramatic, frankly drop in cost of 129 00:08:05,116 --> 00:08:08,076 Speaker 1: solar and the efficiency of solar panels over the last 130 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 1: fifteen to twenty years. It's come down by sort of 131 00:08:11,276 --> 00:08:14,796 Speaker 1: almost ten x so technology per se, but it's the 132 00:08:14,876 --> 00:08:18,516 Speaker 1: price of technology that's really been most important that started 133 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:21,316 Speaker 1: to allow us to get to that sweet spot where 134 00:08:21,756 --> 00:08:26,036 Speaker 1: these systems can actually work. They can generate power at 135 00:08:26,036 --> 00:08:28,636 Speaker 1: a price that communities are able to pay and willing 136 00:08:28,676 --> 00:08:30,876 Speaker 1: to pay because they see the benefits for themselves and 137 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:34,876 Speaker 1: they see the improved incomes. They're still expensive and they 138 00:08:34,956 --> 00:08:37,676 Speaker 1: still need to come down further. So there are still 139 00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:41,476 Speaker 1: things that have to happen for this to absolutely spread 140 00:08:41,516 --> 00:08:43,996 Speaker 1: like wildfire, if you like, the way mobile phones did 141 00:08:44,076 --> 00:08:47,396 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. And that's essentially the thing that we're 142 00:08:47,396 --> 00:08:49,436 Speaker 1: trying to solve is how do we take this great idea, 143 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 1: this great opportunity, and get it to the point where 144 00:08:52,676 --> 00:08:56,516 Speaker 1: it can truly take off. Is that really a commercial question? 145 00:08:56,636 --> 00:08:58,236 Speaker 1: Is it to do with selling it, Is it to 146 00:08:58,276 --> 00:09:00,716 Speaker 1: do with distributing it? What are the big obstacles to 147 00:09:01,516 --> 00:09:05,236 Speaker 1: installing these minigrids? So the installing of the minigrid is 148 00:09:05,276 --> 00:09:08,396 Speaker 1: actually the simplest part of it. It is a commercial challenge. 149 00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:11,676 Speaker 1: You are trying to serve the poorest end of the market. 150 00:09:11,836 --> 00:09:16,076 Speaker 1: These are consumers that utilities don't go to because they 151 00:09:16,116 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 1: see them as loss making for every unit of electricity 152 00:09:18,916 --> 00:09:24,036 Speaker 1: they sell. It's understanding demand. Is treating low income households 153 00:09:24,116 --> 00:09:28,836 Speaker 1: in rural Myanma or India as consumers as an addressable market. 154 00:09:29,196 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 1: But understanding that market, what do they actually need? How 155 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,876 Speaker 1: much can they pay? How do you supply it in 156 00:09:36,916 --> 00:09:39,596 Speaker 1: a way that is flexible to their needs? So not 157 00:09:39,676 --> 00:09:42,676 Speaker 1: just saying here's a meter consumer, as much power as 158 00:09:42,756 --> 00:09:44,116 Speaker 1: you want, and we'll give you a bill at the 159 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 1: end of the month, and you know, all of a 160 00:09:45,436 --> 00:09:48,196 Speaker 1: sudden you realize you can't afford it. But actually, maybe 161 00:09:48,196 --> 00:09:50,356 Speaker 1: what you need is a package so that you can 162 00:09:50,436 --> 00:09:53,996 Speaker 1: create over time, as a minigrid operator, a viable business. 163 00:09:54,316 --> 00:09:58,516 Speaker 1: That's probably one of the biggest challenges, and honestly, we're 164 00:09:58,556 --> 00:10:01,676 Speaker 1: not there yet. We still need to innovate. We need 165 00:10:01,716 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 1: to drive prices down, we need to get better at 166 00:10:03,796 --> 00:10:07,716 Speaker 1: predicting what the demand will be in any given village 167 00:10:07,716 --> 00:10:11,676 Speaker 1: so that people can size the systems appropriately. And we 168 00:10:11,716 --> 00:10:14,156 Speaker 1: also need help from a government in the sense of 169 00:10:14,916 --> 00:10:18,916 Speaker 1: seeing this as part of their solution. Governments take on 170 00:10:18,996 --> 00:10:22,516 Speaker 1: electrification as sort of a national mission. This is what 171 00:10:22,556 --> 00:10:25,676 Speaker 1: they do. You have ministries of energy and ministries of electricity, 172 00:10:26,236 --> 00:10:29,756 Speaker 1: but they have tended to adopt a single solution, which 173 00:10:29,796 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: is we'll extend the grid and we'll keep extending it 174 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:34,556 Speaker 1: as quickly as we can, and you know it'll get 175 00:10:34,596 --> 00:10:36,116 Speaker 1: to you when it gets to you, and there's a 176 00:10:36,156 --> 00:10:39,316 Speaker 1: massive opportunity cost around that. So it's really the dialogue 177 00:10:39,316 --> 00:10:41,436 Speaker 1: with government to saying, look, we can build the grid 178 00:10:41,516 --> 00:10:45,436 Speaker 1: from the outside in, but you need to create a 179 00:10:45,436 --> 00:10:48,716 Speaker 1: policy environment that allows a many grid developer to go 180 00:10:48,796 --> 00:10:51,876 Speaker 1: out somewhere and not worry that in five years if 181 00:10:51,916 --> 00:10:54,756 Speaker 1: the grid arrives, they suddenly have a stranded asset. You 182 00:10:54,796 --> 00:10:56,636 Speaker 1: may need to look at what sort of fiscal or 183 00:10:56,716 --> 00:10:59,556 Speaker 1: tax incentives you can give to offset some of the 184 00:10:59,596 --> 00:11:03,556 Speaker 1: commercial challenges that still exist. And most importantly, we need 185 00:11:03,596 --> 00:11:08,276 Speaker 1: to plan electrification as a combination of grid and off 186 00:11:08,276 --> 00:11:12,836 Speaker 1: grid and choose the best solutions in the areas where 187 00:11:12,836 --> 00:11:14,796 Speaker 1: they make the most sense. If you have a village 188 00:11:14,876 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 1: right next to the grid, it probably makes sense to 189 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,036 Speaker 1: just extend the grid there. But if you have another 190 00:11:19,036 --> 00:11:22,316 Speaker 1: community of a thousand people ten kilometers away from the grid, 191 00:11:22,876 --> 00:11:25,196 Speaker 1: it actually doesn't make sense to extend the grid five 192 00:11:25,276 --> 00:11:27,436 Speaker 1: years from now. It makes a lot more sense to 193 00:11:27,476 --> 00:11:31,476 Speaker 1: create the incentives and the policies that allow a minigrid 194 00:11:31,516 --> 00:11:35,516 Speaker 1: operator to set up an independent system there and rather 195 00:11:35,556 --> 00:11:37,676 Speaker 1: than that community waiting five or six or seven or 196 00:11:37,716 --> 00:11:40,196 Speaker 1: eight years, you can have one of these systems up 197 00:11:40,236 --> 00:11:42,676 Speaker 1: in three months. But it takes collaboration. It takes us 198 00:11:42,676 --> 00:11:46,236 Speaker 1: at a public private partnership sort of mindset for this 199 00:11:46,316 --> 00:11:49,156 Speaker 1: to happen. And that's a lot about what I'm trying 200 00:11:49,196 --> 00:11:54,036 Speaker 1: to inspire in working with both companies as well as investors, 201 00:11:54,076 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 1: as well as governments, and then, of course, most importantly, 202 00:11:56,836 --> 00:12:00,996 Speaker 1: community organizations on the ground. And do you have a 203 00:12:01,076 --> 00:12:03,676 Speaker 1: set of tactics. Is there a way to talk to 204 00:12:03,796 --> 00:12:06,476 Speaker 1: governments to seeing it from your point of view. You 205 00:12:06,476 --> 00:12:08,396 Speaker 1: can have all of the evidence in the world, right, 206 00:12:08,476 --> 00:12:10,476 Speaker 1: you can put together all the reports you want, all 207 00:12:10,476 --> 00:12:12,836 Speaker 1: of the policy papers, you can go into your sort 208 00:12:12,836 --> 00:12:15,676 Speaker 1: of dialogues with government, and we do all of that, 209 00:12:16,436 --> 00:12:19,676 Speaker 1: but there's nothing like sort of seeing is believing. So 210 00:12:19,756 --> 00:12:26,276 Speaker 1: actually bringing regulators, people from the distribution companies and the utilities, 211 00:12:26,596 --> 00:12:31,036 Speaker 1: from the ministries to these sites, showing them what many 212 00:12:31,076 --> 00:12:33,836 Speaker 1: grid operators are going and saying, look, you should actually 213 00:12:33,836 --> 00:12:36,476 Speaker 1: be claiming this. You should be saying this is part 214 00:12:36,516 --> 00:12:40,436 Speaker 1: of the government's effort to electrify everyone. So one tactic 215 00:12:40,556 --> 00:12:43,396 Speaker 1: is just the seeing is believing, right, There is also 216 00:12:43,476 --> 00:12:45,796 Speaker 1: just making the business case for it. From a kind 217 00:12:45,796 --> 00:12:48,716 Speaker 1: of national economic development point of view, there is an 218 00:12:48,716 --> 00:12:53,036 Speaker 1: opportunity cost to not electrifying a village in today's modern economy. 219 00:12:53,396 --> 00:12:56,396 Speaker 1: It means that village can't participate in all of the 220 00:12:56,436 --> 00:12:59,356 Speaker 1: opportunities that are out there, whether it's in the agricultural 221 00:12:59,516 --> 00:13:02,516 Speaker 1: sector or off farm. I think the thing that often 222 00:13:02,596 --> 00:13:04,996 Speaker 1: resonates the most with government is when you say, look, 223 00:13:05,036 --> 00:13:08,356 Speaker 1: this is actually a development play. This is not just 224 00:13:08,396 --> 00:13:13,716 Speaker 1: an infrast structure project. This is about unleashing new economic opportunity. 225 00:13:13,756 --> 00:13:16,516 Speaker 1: It's about addressing the poverty challenge that you as a 226 00:13:16,556 --> 00:13:20,356 Speaker 1: government care centrally about. So it's the narrative here that 227 00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:24,196 Speaker 1: we have to see this as a national development effort, 228 00:13:24,276 --> 00:13:28,556 Speaker 1: not just an infrastructure effort and the human development effort. 229 00:13:29,316 --> 00:13:31,476 Speaker 1: And then thirdly, you have to show the hard economics 230 00:13:31,516 --> 00:13:35,076 Speaker 1: of it and show that you can actually save money 231 00:13:35,236 --> 00:13:39,716 Speaker 1: overall if you are more thoughtful about how you combine 232 00:13:39,956 --> 00:13:44,836 Speaker 1: grid investments and off grid investments, blending both the best 233 00:13:44,876 --> 00:13:46,956 Speaker 1: of the public what the public sector can bring and 234 00:13:47,356 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 1: what the private sector can bring. Just to give you 235 00:13:50,036 --> 00:13:53,076 Speaker 1: an example, you know, there is this idea of a 236 00:13:53,196 --> 00:13:56,316 Speaker 1: results based financing. You know, so no country in the 237 00:13:56,356 --> 00:14:01,596 Speaker 1: world has actually electrified its entire population without some level 238 00:14:01,596 --> 00:14:05,756 Speaker 1: of government investment and public finance. And what we're saying 239 00:14:05,836 --> 00:14:09,756 Speaker 1: is you can incentivize through these results based finance schemes 240 00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:13,076 Speaker 1: private operators to go and set these mini grids up 241 00:14:13,156 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: in communities that your grid operators are not ready to 242 00:14:17,036 --> 00:14:19,916 Speaker 1: go to and for a fraction of the cost of 243 00:14:19,996 --> 00:14:22,196 Speaker 1: the subsidy that you would provide to the grid, instead 244 00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:25,036 Speaker 1: providers as some sort of performance based incentive to a 245 00:14:25,036 --> 00:14:28,676 Speaker 1: private company. Let them go there, and you know, you're 246 00:14:28,716 --> 00:14:32,316 Speaker 1: creating a quicker solution, it can be more sustainable sort 247 00:14:32,316 --> 00:14:35,196 Speaker 1: of commercially in the medium term, and eventually you can 248 00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:39,516 Speaker 1: integrate this all back into a single what we would 249 00:14:39,516 --> 00:14:41,796 Speaker 1: call a sort of a smart grid, which is a 250 00:14:41,836 --> 00:14:43,876 Speaker 1: grid that you know, where you can have flows going 251 00:14:43,996 --> 00:14:47,316 Speaker 1: both ways between the consumers and the generators of power. 252 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:50,076 Speaker 1: And once you put that sort of vision in front 253 00:14:50,076 --> 00:14:54,076 Speaker 1: of ministries and government officials, yeah, you know, you start 254 00:14:54,116 --> 00:14:58,836 Speaker 1: to find eyes sort of lighting up and champions emerging. 255 00:14:59,116 --> 00:15:01,516 Speaker 1: Tell me about your work with private entrepreneurs. Is that 256 00:15:01,636 --> 00:15:04,316 Speaker 1: very different from the government. Is there are there kind 257 00:15:04,356 --> 00:15:09,956 Speaker 1: of buccaneering entrepreneurial people running minigrid companies whom you can 258 00:15:09,956 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 1: offer advice to or is this something that you have 259 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:14,556 Speaker 1: to spend a lot of time persuading people that this 260 00:15:14,716 --> 00:15:16,716 Speaker 1: is a good thing to do. I'd say five years 261 00:15:16,756 --> 00:15:18,516 Speaker 1: ago it was a bit of a Wild West kind 262 00:15:18,556 --> 00:15:21,876 Speaker 1: of feeling where there were a bunch of well intentioned 263 00:15:22,476 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 1: social entrepreneurs and quite small companies going out and trying 264 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:30,236 Speaker 1: to you know, were just a strong conviction around renewable 265 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:34,476 Speaker 1: energy and around energy access to poor communities, and you know, 266 00:15:34,636 --> 00:15:37,996 Speaker 1: were largely although they were companies, they were relying a 267 00:15:38,076 --> 00:15:40,596 Speaker 1: lot on grant funding to get the early proof of 268 00:15:40,676 --> 00:15:45,476 Speaker 1: concepts out, and we had to certainly encourage companies at 269 00:15:45,476 --> 00:15:49,996 Speaker 1: a slightly larger scale to spot the opportunity. In India. 270 00:15:50,196 --> 00:15:54,196 Speaker 1: We must have spoken to I would say about seventy 271 00:15:54,196 --> 00:15:56,916 Speaker 1: five to maybe as much as a hundred different companies 272 00:15:56,916 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 1: who are in some way related to the energy space, 273 00:15:59,996 --> 00:16:03,556 Speaker 1: but we're not specifically working on rural electrification. So maybe 274 00:16:03,636 --> 00:16:07,676 Speaker 1: they were equipment manufacturers for some of the systems, you know, 275 00:16:07,756 --> 00:16:11,636 Speaker 1: solar manufacturers, or they work companies doing energy supply to 276 00:16:11,676 --> 00:16:14,196 Speaker 1: cell towers in rural areas, so they were some way 277 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 1: connected to the ecosystem, but they hadn't quite seen this 278 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:20,836 Speaker 1: as an opportunity. That list whittled down from seventy five 279 00:16:20,876 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 1: two hundred down to less than ten that really wanted 280 00:16:23,476 --> 00:16:25,916 Speaker 1: to then get in because this was still seen as 281 00:16:26,156 --> 00:16:30,876 Speaker 1: a young field, a market that was unproven and frankly 282 00:16:30,956 --> 00:16:33,076 Speaker 1: high risk, and so even though we were able to 283 00:16:33,076 --> 00:16:36,876 Speaker 1: provide them with concessional capital with like low cost loans, 284 00:16:37,356 --> 00:16:39,396 Speaker 1: it was still a big risk for them to enter. 285 00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:43,276 Speaker 1: Those that have have started to do, you know, reasonably well. 286 00:16:43,316 --> 00:16:47,116 Speaker 1: The first company that we invested in India called Omnigrid 287 00:16:47,356 --> 00:16:51,076 Speaker 1: micropower co operation has gone on to raise about ten 288 00:16:51,156 --> 00:16:53,836 Speaker 1: times as much capital from other investors to expand their 289 00:16:53,836 --> 00:16:56,876 Speaker 1: operations and are doing really well. And what about the 290 00:16:56,996 --> 00:17:00,036 Speaker 1: recipients the people for whom these grids are being built. 291 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:02,436 Speaker 1: Do they say, why aren't we being connected to the 292 00:17:02,436 --> 00:17:06,796 Speaker 1: main grid? Do they appreciate this kind of this innovative technology, 293 00:17:06,836 --> 00:17:08,196 Speaker 1: and do they like the idea of it? Or is 294 00:17:08,196 --> 00:17:13,596 Speaker 1: there some resistance? There's very little resistance if the service 295 00:17:13,636 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 1: that's provided is high quality and it is truly customer oriented. 296 00:17:18,436 --> 00:17:20,916 Speaker 1: What you tend to find is a lot of frustration 297 00:17:21,036 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 1: with the national grids, with state owned utilities that have 298 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:28,276 Speaker 1: been providing a very erratic service, making promises that they 299 00:17:28,316 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 1: can't then meet our experiences. Somewhere between ninety seven to 300 00:17:32,436 --> 00:17:36,316 Speaker 1: ninety eight percent collection efficiency, which is basically an industry 301 00:17:36,396 --> 00:17:38,196 Speaker 1: term for you know, how much of your revenue are 302 00:17:38,236 --> 00:17:43,836 Speaker 1: you actually recovering on time relatively high levels of customer satisfaction. So, 303 00:17:44,076 --> 00:17:47,676 Speaker 1: using industry benchmarks for customer satisfaction, you know, it's sort 304 00:17:47,716 --> 00:17:50,716 Speaker 1: of seventy eighty eighty five percent, which is regarded as 305 00:17:51,036 --> 00:17:54,316 Speaker 1: pretty good when you consider that most large utilities have 306 00:17:54,556 --> 00:17:58,476 Speaker 1: satisfaction ratings at fifty five sixty percent, and that's probably 307 00:17:58,556 --> 00:18:01,036 Speaker 1: true even in the developed world, and we're utilities in 308 00:18:01,476 --> 00:18:04,276 Speaker 1: rural India and Africa used to thinking in terms of 309 00:18:04,316 --> 00:18:08,236 Speaker 1: customer satisfaction or was that also something you not at all? Right? 310 00:18:08,276 --> 00:18:11,636 Speaker 1: I mean they saw the last mild customer as a 311 00:18:11,716 --> 00:18:15,196 Speaker 1: loss making beneficiary of some government program rather than a 312 00:18:15,316 --> 00:18:19,956 Speaker 1: viable consumer. So the relationship is completely different between these 313 00:18:19,956 --> 00:18:24,356 Speaker 1: private companies and consumers. There is an accountability, there is 314 00:18:24,356 --> 00:18:28,516 Speaker 1: a service standard that has met, there's a complaints mechanism, 315 00:18:28,956 --> 00:18:30,556 Speaker 1: and at the end of the day, if you have 316 00:18:30,556 --> 00:18:33,996 Speaker 1: an unhappy customer, you have a bottom line that's getting affected. 317 00:18:34,036 --> 00:18:38,076 Speaker 1: So there's some sort of basic commercial incentives to perform. Now, 318 00:18:38,356 --> 00:18:42,356 Speaker 1: all of that said, your original question about the grid 319 00:18:42,676 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 1: being a preference is also an important question because grid 320 00:18:46,436 --> 00:18:51,396 Speaker 1: electricity is by and large significantly cheaper because it's subsidized. 321 00:18:52,036 --> 00:18:55,356 Speaker 1: So there is a larger sort of question about well, 322 00:18:55,476 --> 00:19:01,196 Speaker 1: is it fair that a low income consumer in rural 323 00:19:01,436 --> 00:19:06,116 Speaker 1: Bihar or in rural Uganda is paying an equivalent rate 324 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:09,076 Speaker 1: per unit of electricy that is higher than what an 325 00:19:09,196 --> 00:19:12,996 Speaker 1: urban consumer or a periurban consumer is paying when supplied 326 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:15,036 Speaker 1: by the grid. And I guess you know. The answer 327 00:19:15,076 --> 00:19:18,116 Speaker 1: to that is fundamentally no, it's not fair. But is 328 00:19:18,116 --> 00:19:21,876 Speaker 1: it beneficial to them in terms of improving their incomes, 329 00:19:21,916 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 1: improving the quality of their life, and helping them reduce 330 00:19:24,516 --> 00:19:29,756 Speaker 1: the costs of consuming alternative, dirty and expensive fuels like 331 00:19:29,876 --> 00:19:34,196 Speaker 1: kerosene or diesel. Absolutely. So these are informed consumers who 332 00:19:34,276 --> 00:19:36,916 Speaker 1: vote with their feet. They make the choices that they 333 00:19:37,036 --> 00:19:41,236 Speaker 1: know benefit them. We must address that question over time. 334 00:19:41,316 --> 00:19:43,396 Speaker 1: That's why we talk about building the grid from the 335 00:19:43,436 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: outside in and eventually integrating because at the end of 336 00:19:46,436 --> 00:19:48,796 Speaker 1: the day, in ten years time, not only do we 337 00:19:48,836 --> 00:19:52,116 Speaker 1: want everyone to have access to electricity, but it needs 338 00:19:52,156 --> 00:19:54,236 Speaker 1: to be affordable, it needs to be reliable, it needs 339 00:19:54,276 --> 00:19:57,716 Speaker 1: to be equitable, and so we still have big, big 340 00:19:57,796 --> 00:20:03,076 Speaker 1: questions to deal with. And doessolar itself have an appeal? 341 00:20:03,156 --> 00:20:05,196 Speaker 1: Do people say, wow, this is a kind of energy. 342 00:20:05,236 --> 00:20:07,716 Speaker 1: They can see that it's clean, it doesn't produce smoke, 343 00:20:08,436 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: it comes from the son That is that appealing or 344 00:20:11,076 --> 00:20:13,156 Speaker 1: is that does that give people the sense that it's 345 00:20:13,196 --> 00:20:18,476 Speaker 1: not not reliable. It's appealing to governments, it's appealing to investors, 346 00:20:18,516 --> 00:20:21,356 Speaker 1: it's appealing to people who care about climate change. So 347 00:20:21,396 --> 00:20:23,236 Speaker 1: it has multiple appeals. But if you look at it 348 00:20:23,276 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 1: from the through the lens of the actual consumer sitting 349 00:20:25,996 --> 00:20:30,156 Speaker 1: in their home in in one of these places, it's 350 00:20:30,196 --> 00:20:33,516 Speaker 1: what is it displacing? Right, So it's not that it's solar, 351 00:20:33,916 --> 00:20:37,436 Speaker 1: it's that I don't have a smoke filled room with 352 00:20:37,556 --> 00:20:41,236 Speaker 1: because I'm using a kerosene lamp. If I'm a small shopkeeper, 353 00:20:41,876 --> 00:20:43,716 Speaker 1: it's not that it's solar. It's that I don't have 354 00:20:43,756 --> 00:20:47,156 Speaker 1: a little diesel generator right next to me, you know, 355 00:20:47,236 --> 00:20:50,276 Speaker 1: making a hell of a racket and and spewing out 356 00:20:50,356 --> 00:20:53,676 Speaker 1: noxious fumes. I often say, Look, these are some of 357 00:20:53,716 --> 00:20:57,276 Speaker 1: the lowest consumers of energy in the world. I think 358 00:20:57,436 --> 00:21:00,836 Speaker 1: we have an obligation, given where we are as a planet, 359 00:21:01,436 --> 00:21:03,476 Speaker 1: to make sure that the energy system of the future 360 00:21:03,636 --> 00:21:07,596 Speaker 1: is green and is sustainable, and is largely based on 361 00:21:07,636 --> 00:21:11,796 Speaker 1: renewable energy. I would not put the responsibility for that 362 00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:14,796 Speaker 1: transition on the shoulders of the people that we are 363 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:20,156 Speaker 1: trying to serve. We promote renewable technology with these consumers 364 00:21:20,196 --> 00:21:23,276 Speaker 1: because it offers a disruptive solution to get energy to 365 00:21:23,396 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: them in a way that hasn't ever happened before. Anytime 366 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:29,036 Speaker 1: you've when you've been working on this problem and trying 367 00:21:29,036 --> 00:21:30,716 Speaker 1: to carry it out. Can you think of moments of 368 00:21:30,756 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 1: real frustration? I mean are there people or companies or 369 00:21:34,716 --> 00:21:36,876 Speaker 1: incidents that made you think, you know, this is never 370 00:21:36,916 --> 00:21:40,636 Speaker 1: going to work or it's just not going to happen. Yeah, 371 00:21:40,636 --> 00:21:47,236 Speaker 1: every day. You know, anytime you're trying to do something 372 00:21:47,276 --> 00:21:51,316 Speaker 1: that is different, you often come up against forces that 373 00:21:51,876 --> 00:21:56,676 Speaker 1: perhaps comfortable with the status quo. When we set up 374 00:21:56,716 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: the first set of minigrids in India, you know, there 375 00:22:00,436 --> 00:22:03,556 Speaker 1: were mysterious things would happen. Lines would get cut in 376 00:22:03,596 --> 00:22:06,476 Speaker 1: the middle of the night, wires would be ripped down, 377 00:22:06,876 --> 00:22:10,996 Speaker 1: poles would be destroyed, and we covered over time that 378 00:22:11,156 --> 00:22:14,716 Speaker 1: there were interests in the diesel ecosystem in that area, 379 00:22:14,756 --> 00:22:18,436 Speaker 1: the diesel mafias it's called, that wanted to see this fail. 380 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:21,276 Speaker 1: But you know, once communities start to see that they're 381 00:22:21,276 --> 00:22:23,636 Speaker 1: really benefiting from it, that they actually create a sort 382 00:22:23,636 --> 00:22:26,156 Speaker 1: of an almost like an invisible ring of protection around 383 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:29,796 Speaker 1: that because if the people who are ultimately consuming this 384 00:22:30,276 --> 00:22:34,196 Speaker 1: want it, they find ways of making sure that it 385 00:22:34,196 --> 00:22:36,996 Speaker 1: doesn't get as disrupted. So we had some of that 386 00:22:37,596 --> 00:22:40,516 Speaker 1: early on. You know, the thing I worry most about 387 00:22:41,156 --> 00:22:43,116 Speaker 1: is probably I mean, there's a lot of things I 388 00:22:43,156 --> 00:22:45,036 Speaker 1: worry about, But there's a couple of areas where I 389 00:22:45,036 --> 00:22:47,436 Speaker 1: feel like we really have to see the biggest breakthrough. 390 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:51,516 Speaker 1: One is in government and in being able to really 391 00:22:52,236 --> 00:22:55,356 Speaker 1: despite all of the openness that there might be to 392 00:22:55,436 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: wanting to solve this problem. There are also some fairly 393 00:22:57,836 --> 00:23:03,756 Speaker 1: traditional and calcified ways of thinking about electrification. But also 394 00:23:04,476 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 1: there are champions within all of these countries who are 395 00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:12,076 Speaker 1: picking that battle. How sympathetic are the other cutting edge 396 00:23:12,116 --> 00:23:14,836 Speaker 1: technology companies who are thinking about electricity and so on 397 00:23:14,916 --> 00:23:16,916 Speaker 1: in different in different ways. How sympathetic are they? Is 398 00:23:16,996 --> 00:23:19,276 Speaker 1: this problem? Do you have very Do you have trouble 399 00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:23,076 Speaker 1: getting big companies to focus on this kind of issue? 400 00:23:23,356 --> 00:23:25,116 Speaker 1: Not at all. I think there's actually it's more than 401 00:23:25,156 --> 00:23:28,036 Speaker 1: just sympathetic. A lot of these companies see this as 402 00:23:28,116 --> 00:23:29,876 Speaker 1: a market. I mean this is, like I said, a 403 00:23:29,916 --> 00:23:34,236 Speaker 1: billion people, and they are starting to invest. If you 404 00:23:34,236 --> 00:23:38,116 Speaker 1: look at every major energy utility at a global level, 405 00:23:38,836 --> 00:23:44,116 Speaker 1: from NL to energy to shell to total, each and 406 00:23:44,236 --> 00:23:48,276 Speaker 1: every one of them has an off grade a rural 407 00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:53,516 Speaker 1: electrification business unit that is starting to explore what they 408 00:23:53,516 --> 00:23:55,716 Speaker 1: can do, starting to make I would say small and 409 00:23:55,796 --> 00:23:59,116 Speaker 1: mid size investments in this space and What we're trying 410 00:23:59,156 --> 00:24:01,356 Speaker 1: to do is nudge them along and say this is great. 411 00:24:01,516 --> 00:24:05,036 Speaker 1: Let's keep working together. Let us do the things that 412 00:24:05,076 --> 00:24:07,836 Speaker 1: maybe you as a company can't invest in to help 413 00:24:07,916 --> 00:24:10,716 Speaker 1: open up the sectors whole. And we hope that there 414 00:24:10,716 --> 00:24:13,596 Speaker 1: are more of them going to be poised to enter 415 00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:16,516 Speaker 1: into this market. We are in partnership with several of 416 00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:18,956 Speaker 1: them now and I think there's only going to be 417 00:24:18,996 --> 00:24:21,116 Speaker 1: more coming in in the future. So it's not just 418 00:24:21,156 --> 00:24:23,516 Speaker 1: about being sympathetic, it's it's very much in their own 419 00:24:23,556 --> 00:24:29,436 Speaker 1: interests to see decentralized renewable energy as the way of 420 00:24:29,436 --> 00:24:32,156 Speaker 1: the future. Are you expecting at some point for there 421 00:24:32,156 --> 00:24:35,076 Speaker 1: to be a kind of tipping point whereby the delivery 422 00:24:35,076 --> 00:24:37,796 Speaker 1: of this kind of energy will be commercially viable and 423 00:24:37,876 --> 00:24:40,796 Speaker 1: nobody will need, you know, the Rockefell or Foundation to 424 00:24:40,876 --> 00:24:43,396 Speaker 1: explain to them why it's necessary, how it can be done. 425 00:24:43,436 --> 00:24:46,516 Speaker 1: Can you see that happening? I certainly hope so. Because 426 00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:48,876 Speaker 1: you know we cannot do this alone, we can light 427 00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:52,156 Speaker 1: the spark. We can operate in the spaces that you 428 00:24:52,316 --> 00:24:56,036 Speaker 1: foundations and philanthropies are particularly good at, which is early stage, 429 00:24:56,196 --> 00:25:00,636 Speaker 1: high risk grant making or debt and equity investing. I 430 00:25:00,676 --> 00:25:04,676 Speaker 1: think the big breakthrough will come when a large African 431 00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:10,116 Speaker 1: country commits itself fully to integrate it electrific planning an 432 00:25:10,156 --> 00:25:13,876 Speaker 1: investment and starts to really create a significant public private 433 00:25:13,916 --> 00:25:17,796 Speaker 1: partnership that combines the best of sort of grid scale 434 00:25:17,796 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 1: with off grid and I don't think we're that far 435 00:25:19,836 --> 00:25:23,836 Speaker 1: away from that happening. Another tipping point is would be 436 00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:28,116 Speaker 1: a major company like the ones I mentioned earlier, or 437 00:25:28,316 --> 00:25:30,556 Speaker 1: you know in India, Tata Power or something like that, 438 00:25:31,196 --> 00:25:35,796 Speaker 1: committing to a very large off grid business, because what 439 00:25:35,836 --> 00:25:38,596 Speaker 1: that will do is also drive the prices down. You know, 440 00:25:38,676 --> 00:25:41,556 Speaker 1: part of the price challenges also just scale. You know, 441 00:25:41,596 --> 00:25:44,996 Speaker 1: the technologies out there. Solar panels have have pretty much 442 00:25:45,076 --> 00:25:47,716 Speaker 1: come down to the level that you know they will, 443 00:25:48,076 --> 00:25:50,396 Speaker 1: but there's other components that cost a lot of money 444 00:25:50,436 --> 00:25:52,836 Speaker 1: that where we have to still squeeze fifteen, twenty twenty 445 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,316 Speaker 1: five percent out of the cost. If I can order 446 00:25:55,396 --> 00:25:57,956 Speaker 1: ten thousand units of something, I can do that overnight. 447 00:25:58,716 --> 00:26:01,716 Speaker 1: So there's a procurement site to this which just requires 448 00:26:01,716 --> 00:26:03,556 Speaker 1: a scale player, and I think that will be a 449 00:26:03,636 --> 00:26:07,876 Speaker 1: tipping point that I'm very confident we will see that, 450 00:26:08,836 --> 00:26:10,756 Speaker 1: you know, within the next three to five years of 451 00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:16,276 Speaker 1: probably soon. Actually lots of food for thought there, like 452 00:26:16,396 --> 00:26:19,756 Speaker 1: how private companies are more nimble and more willing to 453 00:26:19,796 --> 00:26:24,476 Speaker 1: take risks than governments, but that can make energy more expensive. 454 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:28,956 Speaker 1: And also this made me realize just how far we've come. 455 00:26:29,436 --> 00:26:31,796 Speaker 1: That's a reason for hope right there. You know, as 456 00:26:31,836 --> 00:26:35,556 Speaker 1: Ashvin says, just twenty years ago, there were four billion 457 00:26:35,676 --> 00:26:39,956 Speaker 1: people without access to telecommunications and look at us now. 458 00:26:40,516 --> 00:26:44,076 Speaker 1: I only feel alive when I'm on Instagram. I'm joking. 459 00:26:44,356 --> 00:26:49,556 Speaker 1: Kind Of Solvable is a collaboration between Pushkin Industries and 460 00:26:49,596 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 1: the Rockefella Foundation, with production by Chalk and Blade. Pushkin's 461 00:26:54,156 --> 00:26:58,596 Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia LaBelle, Engineering by Jason Gambrell and 462 00:26:58,636 --> 00:27:03,076 Speaker 1: the fine folks at GSI Studios. Original music composed by 463 00:27:03,116 --> 00:27:08,116 Speaker 1: Pascal Wise. Special thanks to Maggie Taylor, Heather Faine, Julia Barton, 464 00:27:08,356 --> 00:27:12,996 Speaker 1: Carlie Miglio or Sheriff Vincent, Jacob Weisberg, and Malcolm Gladwell. 465 00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:16,636 Speaker 1: You can learn more about solving today's biggest problems at 466 00:27:16,756 --> 00:27:22,116 Speaker 1: Rockefeller Foundation dot org, slash solvable. I'm Mave Higgins, Now 467 00:27:22,156 --> 00:27:22,956 Speaker 1: go solve it.