WEBVTT - Supercommunicating w/ Charles Duhigg #788 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.519 Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt, 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.040 and today we're talking super Communicating with Charles Dohig. 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:28.680 Yeah, So, think about any great relationship that you have, 0:00:28.960 --> 0:00:32.800 So whether that's with your partner or a friend, even. 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:34.120 Like a boss or a supervisor. 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:36.519 I'd say that in each of those examples, there's a 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.479 really good chance that you're both pretty dang good at 0:00:39.479 --> 0:00:42.360 talking or communicating with each other. And you know, at 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.879 the core of any healthy relationship is the ability to 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:47.760 feel heard and to be understood, and that's what we're 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:50.479 going to be discussing today. We're joined by Charles Dohig, 0:00:50.680 --> 0:00:54.240 the author of new book Super Communicators is coming out 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:58.200 next week, where he explores everything from how marriage counselors 0:00:58.240 --> 0:01:00.760 teach couples to hear what it is that unsaid, to 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:05.520 how NASA psychologists look for astronauts who are emotionally intelligent. 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:09.480 He gives some incredible examples in the book, but inter personally, 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:13.360 in our lives, deep meaningful connection to other people like 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:17.040 it is vital to living a fulfilling life, but practically speaking, 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.399 it's also really important when it comes to discussing money 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.920 with a partner, for instance, and so we're gonna get 0:01:21.959 --> 0:01:23.840 into that as well. Charles, We're excited to have you 0:01:23.880 --> 0:01:24.759 on the podcast again. 0:01:25.040 --> 0:01:26.800 Thanks for having me on. This is a real treat 0:01:27.400 --> 0:01:27.840 of course. 0:01:27.920 --> 0:01:28.440 Yeah, okay. 0:01:28.520 --> 0:01:31.640 The first question we ask every guest, even returning guests, Charles, 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.040 is what they like to splurge on. And last time 0:01:35.680 --> 0:01:37.720 we spoke, I believe you had just bought an e 0:01:37.880 --> 0:01:40.440 bike and that was that was your big splurge and 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.880 we could I can identify. I love my e bike, 0:01:43.959 --> 0:01:45.920 my rad wagon that throw the kids on the back 0:01:46.000 --> 0:01:46.640 of occasionally. 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.080 What do you like to splurge on? Now? 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:51.520 Has that been updated for twenty twenty four. 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.400 So it has a little bit And I will say 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:55.680 the e bikes worked out really really well. I was 0:01:55.840 --> 0:01:58.280 very very happy with the we got the rad power 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.320 bikes also. But the I think the thing I splurge 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:06.360 on now is I started paying for the fancy credit cards, 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:08.120 not because like I want to impress anyone with a 0:02:08.120 --> 0:02:10.800 credit card that I'm caring, but because it gives me 0:02:10.919 --> 0:02:15.160 so many points and other benefits. And in particular, I 0:02:15.160 --> 0:02:19.200 I pay for the American Express Platinum card, which and 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:20.880 the reason I like it is because what. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:22.239 Is that six andey five dollars. 0:02:22.720 --> 0:02:25.079 It's like something crazy. I mean, it's like every time 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:26.639 they charge it once a year and I'm like, why 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:28.880 am I doing this? But then I remember why I'm 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.520 doing it, which is that I'm able to book things 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:35.000 through their their travel website. And so whenever I check 0:02:35.000 --> 0:02:36.640 into a hotel, if you book it through their their 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:39.799 travel website, they give you like free breakfast every morning, 0:02:39.800 --> 0:02:42.920 and like free valet parking, you know, one hundred dollars 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.080 to spend at the risk on the property. And I 0:02:46.160 --> 0:02:48.600 will say that like it feels like such an indulgence. 0:02:48.639 --> 0:02:50.320 But when when I wake up and I'm like, you 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.080 know what, I can go eat breakfast and have whatever 0:02:52.080 --> 0:02:53.160 I want because it's free. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:55.520 It's kind of a smart move. It's kind of the 0:02:55.560 --> 0:03:01.520 thing they're luny the way you get to right, Like. 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:03.320 You said, you asked for a splurge. This is what 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:05.480 I slurrege on. It's honestly, it's not. 0:03:05.560 --> 0:03:07.600 It's it's almost less of a splurge because it's just 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.520 a smart financial move. If you know you're going to 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.240 take advantage of the different benefits, it's less like, oh, 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.520 this is something that has some sort of I. 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:16.960 Think it's true except that it's the same way that 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.320 like having a cost Co membership, you're like, well, i'll 0:03:19.400 --> 0:03:22.080 definitely save money on toilet paper, except that whenever you 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.760 walk into Costco, you walk out with like three hundred 0:03:24.800 --> 0:03:28.040 dollars worth of stuff, right toilet paper. And so I 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:30.200 think that's the thing that happens with the Amic Platinum 0:03:30.200 --> 0:03:32.240 is that I'm like, oh, it's a free breakfast, so 0:03:32.280 --> 0:03:34.760 I guess I'll stay at that slightly more expensive hotel. 0:03:35.720 --> 0:03:37.080 Yeah. 0:03:37.160 --> 0:03:39.480 So in that way, you're able to honestly enjoy travel 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.240 a little bit more when you are going to do that. 0:03:41.280 --> 0:03:44.040 I can get behind that. Yeah, Charles, So, I guess 0:03:44.040 --> 0:03:45.440 the last time we had you on we were talking 0:03:45.480 --> 0:03:47.720 about the Power of Habit. Some of your other books 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:51.240 you discussed accomplishment. Why did you pivot to writing about 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:53.360 communications specifically here in this book. 0:03:53.440 --> 0:03:55.800 Yeah. No, it's a great question, and the answer is that, 0:03:55.920 --> 0:03:57.440 you know, when I was writing The Power of Habit 0:03:57.840 --> 0:04:01.080 and Smarter, Faster, Better About Productivity, both of those books 0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:03.400 were really like focused on the individual, right, they were 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:07.320 focused internally about how to become more successful. But the 0:04:07.320 --> 0:04:10.760 truth of the matter is that, like most people's success 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:14.360 is not reliant just on themselves most of the time. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.080 If we managed to achieve our goals, or we managed 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.440 to be a lead a happier and a healthier life, 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.840 it's because we are working with other people, whether they 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.920 be our spouse or coworkers, in ways that allow us 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.960 to do that. And at the core of that is communication, right. 0:04:30.000 --> 0:04:34.400 I mean, we all know people who are masters in 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:37.840 wonderful at communication and we see the benefits that they 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.320 get from it. And the thing that I learned is, 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:43.040 you know, in the last decade we've learned a lot 0:04:43.040 --> 0:04:46.280 about the science of communication, and anyone can become one 0:04:46.320 --> 0:04:49.120 of those people. Anyone can become a super communicator. And 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.160 so I thought that was something important to share with readers. 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:55.320 Okay, so you mentioned the term already. What is a 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:58.599 super communicator at? Like, what's the goal we're aiming for here? 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.720 We try to become the next Tony Robbins Philly have 0:05:01.800 --> 0:05:04.520 packed out stadium or something in getting people to jump 0:05:04.600 --> 0:05:06.440 up and down, or like, what are we going here 0:05:06.440 --> 0:05:07.880 for with the super communicator thing? 0:05:08.000 --> 0:05:10.000 What we're going for is we're going for connection. And 0:05:10.040 --> 0:05:11.839 here's here's the best way to think about what a 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:14.839 supercommunicator is. Let me ask you guys. This So if 0:05:14.880 --> 0:05:17.359 you've had a bad day and like just and you 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:18.960 need to talk to someone who you know is going 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:20.760 to make you feel better, Like just talking to them 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:23.279 is going to really help. Does that person pop into 0:05:23.279 --> 0:05:25.080 your mind immediately? Like, do you know who you would 0:05:25.120 --> 0:05:25.680 call right away? 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:26.640 Yep? Yeah, for sure? 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:27.640 Who? And who is it? 0:05:28.000 --> 0:05:29.719 Wife? Same here? Yeah? 0:05:29.800 --> 0:05:33.600 Yeah, yeah, So your wife for you is a super communicator, 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:37.200 and you are probably a super communicator for your wives. Right. 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.039 You have the ability to connect almost effortlessly, to make 0:05:41.080 --> 0:05:44.839 each other feel genuinely listened to and heard, to speak 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:46.559 in a way that the other person doesn't have trouble 0:05:46.640 --> 0:05:49.400 understanding what you're trying to tell them. And this is 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.880 what super community. Now, there are some people who can 0:05:51.920 --> 0:05:55.000 do this consistently, who can do this with almost anyone, right, 0:05:55.040 --> 0:05:58.559 And we've all met those people before. And what they're 0:05:58.560 --> 0:06:01.040 doing is they know a couple of skills that are 0:06:01.040 --> 0:06:03.400 really important. They think a little bit more about communication, 0:06:03.680 --> 0:06:06.000 and so they've taught themselves a few skills, either through 0:06:06.040 --> 0:06:10.440 practice or through intuition. But most importantly, super com communicators 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.120 are people who show others that they want to connect 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:18.279 with them. And it's that demonstration of wanting to connect, 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:22.240 wanting to understand that makes us and this is hardwired 0:06:22.279 --> 0:06:25.320 into your brains, makes us feel closer and more trusting 0:06:25.400 --> 0:06:28.120 and to like the other person more and ultimately to 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:29.479 feel happier. I love that. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.760 Yeah, So one of those skills is actually question asking, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.720 Like that seems to be a really pivotal part of 0:06:36.960 --> 0:06:39.760 healthy communication. I think there's a study that you cite 0:06:39.760 --> 0:06:42.240 in the book that found that supercommunicators tend to ask 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:45.479 something like ten to twenty times more questions than normal 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:49.080 folks and conversations. Why is it that these questions are 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:50.720 so essential to good communication? 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.480 Well, it's so questions are really really powerful, and you're 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:56.920 exactly right. They ask ten to twenty times as many 0:06:57.000 --> 0:06:59.640 questions as the average person. Now, some of those questions 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.320 are quite like hey, what you make of that? Or like, oh, 0:07:02.360 --> 0:07:05.160 what'd you say next? Right, they're questions that are so 0:07:05.200 --> 0:07:08.360 slight we hardly even register them as questions. But what 0:07:08.400 --> 0:07:10.520 they do is they invite us into the conversation. They're 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:13.240 showing that this person is listening, they're showing that they 0:07:13.240 --> 0:07:16.200 want to learn more, they're showing that they're interested in us, 0:07:16.520 --> 0:07:19.160 and that feels really good. But then The other types 0:07:19.200 --> 0:07:21.960 of questions that the supercommunicators ask are what's known as 0:07:22.040 --> 0:07:25.840 deep questions. And deep questions can sound intimidating, But what 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:29.840 a deep question is is it simply something that asks 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:32.520 someone to talk a little bit about their values, or 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.160 their beliefs, or their experiences. And it can be as 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:36.720 simple as you know, you bump into someone and you 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:38.440 say what do you do for a living and they say, oh, 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:41.680 I'm a lawyer? And you say, oh, oh, that's interesting. 0:07:41.840 --> 0:07:43.600 What made you decide to go to law school? 0:07:44.000 --> 0:07:44.080 Like? 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.400 Do you do you love practicing the law? What's the 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.800 most interesting case you've handled recently? All three of those 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.120 are easy questions to ask, right, they don't seem like 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:55.560 they're deep or overly intimate. But what I'm really asking 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:58.480 that person is tell me about who you are, tell 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:00.680 me about the experiences that led you to this career. 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.120 Tell me about what you love about your work, Tell 0:08:03.160 --> 0:08:06.920 me about what makes you passionate. Those are really really 0:08:06.960 --> 0:08:09.560 powerful things to ask someone. And what we know is 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:13.840 that if somebody answers those questions, they will expose inevitably 0:08:13.960 --> 0:08:16.200 a little bit of vulnerability. They'll tell you something meaningful 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.800 about themselves. And if you reciprocate. If you show something 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:22.119 meaningful about yourself, you'll feel close. 0:08:22.720 --> 0:08:26.120 Can asking too many questions ever be a negative? Like so, 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:28.760 for instance, Charles, I was at a hang with some 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:31.400 people I didn't really know very well. I'm used to 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.199 working in like radio for so many years, and you 0:08:34.280 --> 0:08:36.559 know what the enemy was dead air, right, and so 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:39.840 you fill every space with question or conversation. And so 0:08:40.000 --> 0:08:43.000 I'm pretty good at this point at asking people questions 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:45.200 and pulling them out. But then sometimes I'll walk away 0:08:45.200 --> 0:08:46.840 from that conversation and I'm like, I don't know if 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:49.480 they know me at all. So I guess can asking 0:08:49.559 --> 0:08:52.680 questions ever become can never backfire if you're maybe like 0:08:52.800 --> 0:08:55.520 me and you're just on the question asking offensive all 0:08:55.559 --> 0:08:55.840 the time. 0:08:55.960 --> 0:08:58.840 Yes, So it's a really really good question because we've 0:08:58.840 --> 0:09:00.960 all been in that situation where it feels like we're 0:09:00.960 --> 0:09:03.760 asking question after questions and it feels more like an 0:09:03.760 --> 0:09:06.920 interview or an interrogation than a conversation, right, And that's 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:09.560 not what we want to go for. As I mentioned 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:15.520 this back Joel, exactly, this reciprocity thing is really really important. 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:18.960 And so oftentimes what we find when we ask a 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.280 deep question is that it's very natural for us to 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:25.080 answer the same question even if it's not asked, because 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:28.000 some people, some people are not good at asking questions, right, Like, 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:30.280 we ask us a couple of questions and then we 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:32.680 kind of wait for them to ask us a question back, 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.160 and they don't. But one of the nice things about 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:37.920 deep questions is that we can say, oh, oh, you 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.240 went to law school because like, you had this experience 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.200 as a kid seeing like you know, injustice. It's interesting. 0:09:43.280 --> 0:09:45.559 I went to medical school for kind of a similar reason. 0:09:45.880 --> 0:09:48.240 I like saw, you know, parts of my city that 0:09:48.240 --> 0:09:51.319 we're getting medical care. The thing about deep questions is 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:55.120 that they set us up to answer the same question ourselves, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.680 even if it hasn't been asked, And that's what gets 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:01.079 us out of that interrogation interview format. That's the thing 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.960 that allows us to start connecting with each other. Because 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.480 this our brains are actually hardwired to pay attention to 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:10.840 anything that looks like vulnerability. And this actually makes sense, 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:14.840 right because in the past, if if an individual was vulnerable, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:17.200 that meant that they were the weakest part of your tribe, 0:10:17.400 --> 0:10:20.319 or that if you were attacking, that that's the person 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.880 to attack. And so our brains evolved to pay really 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:27.480 close attention to anything that seems like vulnerability. That's the 0:10:27.520 --> 0:10:31.160 loudest form of communication possible. Now, vulnerability can be as 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.320 small as saying, oh, I went to law school because 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.280 you know, I saw like an uncle of mine get 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:41.520 arrested once. And the reason why that's vulnerable is because 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:44.600 it opens me up to your judgment. Now, I might 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.600 not care about your judgment. I might not care at all, 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:53.079 but simply opening myself to judgment it triggers those parts 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:56.320 of my brain that make me pay close attention to 0:10:56.360 --> 0:10:59.600 how you react. And if you react by saying something 0:10:59.679 --> 0:11:04.440 equally meaningful, something equally vulnerable, then it'll it helps us 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.840 feel closer to each other. In fact, we're almost powerless 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:10.080 not to feel closer and more trusting of each other 0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:12.439 when someone engages in this reciprocity. 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:14.839 That makes sense. Yeah, and you you outline in the 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:18.200 book too how that it is very different than mimicry, right, 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:20.920 and so, like a small example might be if we're 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:24.400 talking about money, Let's say you are starting to set 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.880 some financial goals. It's still pretty early on in the year, 0:11:26.920 --> 0:11:28.640 so maybe you're like, hey, what if we're able to 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.280 achieve this we're not talking about just saying yeah, let's 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.560 achieve that, right, and just being just parroting whatever it 0:11:36.600 --> 0:11:38.559 is that they maybe your partner's saying, but it might 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.360 mean Okay, man, that's awesome, Like let me share with 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:44.920 you what my hopes and dreams are. Yes, and hope 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:48.320 obviously hopefully they align. But there's there's something there that 0:11:48.400 --> 0:11:50.200 goes beyond just imitation. 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.640 Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. And you know 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.280 in improv they have this phrase yes and that whatever 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:58.880 someone says, you have to say yes and to them 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.760 and play building on it. And the same thing is 0:12:01.800 --> 0:12:05.440 kind of true in conversations, which is that when somebody 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:09.000 brings something up, it's not enough to simply say It's 0:12:09.040 --> 0:12:11.960 not enough to simply listen or say that's interesting. What 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:13.880 you have to do is you have to show that 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:16.640 you're listening and then build on it. And in fact, 0:12:16.800 --> 0:12:20.680 when we have conversations in conflict, and oftentimes conversations about 0:12:20.679 --> 0:12:24.520 money involves some degree of conflict, right because we're might 0:12:24.640 --> 0:12:27.120 be feeling heated, or we might be feeling scared, or 0:12:27.120 --> 0:12:30.640 there's just a lot of emotions in conversations that involve 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:32.240 just a little bit of conflict or a little bit 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.600 of tension. There's a technique known as looping for understanding 0:12:35.679 --> 0:12:38.319 that has been shown to be incredibly powerful that does 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:42.120 exactly what you just said. And what's important is that 0:12:42.280 --> 0:12:45.320 this technique works because it proves to the other person 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.040 that you're listening to them, that you want to understand. 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:49.480 And there's three steps to it. The first is ask 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:52.440 a question, preferably a deep question, if you can. The 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.960 second step is repeat back in your own words what 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.640 you just heard them say, right, exactly what you just said. 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.199 Don't mimic them, but if you have to take a 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:02.880 couple of seconds to think about what you're going to say, 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.600 that's okay, because what we're doing is we're proving that 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.960 we're processing, we're proving that we're listening. And then step 0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:10.800 number three, and this is the one that most people 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.520 forget but is a particularly important in conflict, ask if 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:17.320 you got it right, because it might be that you 0:13:17.360 --> 0:13:19.719 didn't actually understand what the person was trying to tell you. 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:22.680 But also by asking if you got it right, you 0:13:22.800 --> 0:13:27.760 give you're asking them for permission to acknowledge that you 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.280 understand that you're listening closely, and as a result, they're 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:33.280 going to want to listen closely back to you and 0:13:33.400 --> 0:13:34.440 understand what you're saying. 0:13:34.800 --> 0:13:37.880 You're using some therapist techniques here too, Charles in this book, right. 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:40.640 And I know because my wife is currently in grad 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:43.040 school to become a therapist, and we're talking about a 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:46.120 lot of these concepts at home and how she's implementing 0:13:46.160 --> 0:13:47.520 them in the therapy room. 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:49.640 I have a question too. We talked to the. 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.800 Before we started recording about kind of COVID and the 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.520 impact that that had. We mark our world now pre 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.360 COVID and post COVID in so many ways, and how 0:13:58.840 --> 0:14:02.440 do you think that change the dynamics of communication for 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:06.000 so many people as we maybe were treated more into ourselves, 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.600 into our families. And Yeah, it seems like your book 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.200 is so necessary right now as we're trying as getting 0:14:12.240 --> 0:14:14.200 back to normal and trying to figure out what it 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:15.920 looks like to communicate in the real world again. 0:14:16.160 --> 0:14:18.640 Now. In fact, that's one of the reasons I wrote 0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:20.640 the book is I felt like I felt like post 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:23.760 COVID we had forgotten a lot about communication. I also 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:25.920 felt like we're living at a time and I don't 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:28.680 think this is even controversial to say that a lot 0:14:28.680 --> 0:14:30.960 of people feel divided, right that we feel like we 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:34.280 can't have conversations with people who who believe different things 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.280 or come from different backgrounds, and that's really hard because 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:39.640 we want to connect with those people. We want to understand. 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:42.200 I think one of the things that happened during COVID 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:46.840 is that people just fell out of practice of having conversations, right. 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:48.920 I remember I was so I live in California now, 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:50.640 but I was living in New York at the time, 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:52.840 and I would read the subway every single day. So 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:56.560 I was around, you know, hundreds to thousands of people, 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:59.960 and then COVID happened, and suddenly all of that stuff. 0:15:00.480 --> 0:15:04.440 In any given day, I might see literally just my family, yeah, 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:07.040 for a week or a month, and everyone who's listening, 0:15:07.080 --> 0:15:11.920 you've had this experience. And even now that COVID, COVID 0:15:11.960 --> 0:15:14.320 isn't over. But even now that the pandemic is done, 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:19.160 I still see that there's fewer barbecues, there's fewer get togethers. 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:24.920 We forgot how to talk to each other in an easy, conversational, 0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:30.320 fun way for some settings. And so the key there 0:15:30.480 --> 0:15:32.840 is literally just to practice it. Because our brains are 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:36.440 designed to push us to talk to other people. Our 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:40.120 brains are designed to push us to connect. That's communication 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:43.720 has been Homo Sapien's superpower. The thing that allows us 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:46.400 to succeed far better than any other species is that 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.440 we can talk to each other. We can share ideas 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:53.040 and feelings, and so learning reminding ourselves of the skills 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:55.560 of how to do that can be really really valuable 0:15:55.640 --> 0:15:58.240 because that's where most of us find our meaning and life. 0:15:58.560 --> 0:15:59.440 Yeah, that's right. 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.320 Also in the book, you talk about some of the 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:05.400 different kinds of conversations. 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:05.560 That we have. 0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.400 Charles, right, So how do we determine which kind of 0:16:09.400 --> 0:16:11.600 conversation with somebody? 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.200 And there's actually a story involving me and my wife 0:16:14.240 --> 0:16:16.600 and money that kind of visit the core of this. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:19.520 So my wife and I we had this is like 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:23.400 years ago, we went on this vacation to Florida and 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:25.080 it was just the two of us, but we found 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:27.000 a babysitter for the kids and we went to this 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.160 like spa. We were in some resort and for some reason, 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.080 money came up in our and like and we started 0:16:34.200 --> 0:16:37.200 arguing about money, like literally in the hallway of the spa, 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.280 and it just and like we neither of us could 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.080 let it go like like I was, like, you know, 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.560 I was, I was. I was telling my wife that 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:48.680 we need to budget more, but really I was really 0:16:48.720 --> 0:16:52.680 really angry. And she would come up with these these solutions. 0:16:52.720 --> 0:16:54.320 She would say like, look, here's a budgeting way, and 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.280 here's a budgeting way. And I would say I say no, no, no, 0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.160 you're not listening to me, like like I don't. I 0:16:58.200 --> 0:16:59.760 don't want to solve this problem. I want you to 0:16:59.840 --> 0:17:03.960 understand like what I'm feeling. Yeah, And and like we 0:17:04.160 --> 0:17:06.760 argued for I don't know, an hour and a half 0:17:06.800 --> 0:17:08.719 in a spa. It totally it was terrible. 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:10.800 It was the worst relaxed. Yeah, it was great. 0:17:10.800 --> 0:17:15.560 That great. So afterwards I started calling these researchers and 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.760 asked them like what is happening here? Like why did 0:17:18.680 --> 0:17:21.520 why did why couldn't we stop this conversation? Why couldn't 0:17:21.560 --> 0:17:23.400 we hear each other? And they said, well, look, here's 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:25.800 the thing you need to understand is that what the 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:27.240 one of the big things we've learned in the last 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.439 decade is that we think of a discussion as being 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:32.639 about one thing. Like you thought your discussion was about money, 0:17:33.160 --> 0:17:35.879 but actually every discussion is made up of different kinds 0:17:35.920 --> 0:17:40.160 of conversations, and if people aren't having the same kind 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:43.280 of conversation at the same moment, they won't really hear 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:46.280 each other. So when you went into that conversation, you 0:17:46.359 --> 0:17:50.159 were having an emotional conversation and your wife, your wife 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:54.360 was responding with a practical conversation, and those actually used 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:56.800 different parts of our brains, And if you're not using 0:17:56.800 --> 0:17:59.720 the same kind of brain at the same moment, you 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:03.120 can't really connect with each other. And most conversations fall 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.160 into one of three buckets. There's usually practical discussions, which 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:09.800 is what my wife was having, Emotional discussions, which which 0:18:09.920 --> 0:18:12.159 where you want to share how you feel and you 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:13.800 don't want the other person to solve your problems, you 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.760 want them to empathize. And then social conversations where we 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:19.119 talk about how we relate to each other into society. 0:18:19.920 --> 0:18:22.919 So if we're both having the wrong conversation right then 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:25.240 we're just kind of talking past each other. And she's 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.920 coming up with suggestions because she thinks the problem is, hey, 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:31.320 our budget isn't on track and we need to fix like, 0:18:31.560 --> 0:18:33.400 we need to fix that part of things, and you're 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.800 saying no, like money is stressing me out, and it's 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:39.879 got this more emotional component. How do we get on 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:41.760 the same page that we're not talking past one another 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:44.480 near the beginning of that conversation. Yeah, so that we're 0:18:44.480 --> 0:18:47.160 not wasting all that energy and you know, creating more 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:48.880 relational emotional turmoil. 0:18:49.080 --> 0:18:51.199 Well, the first thing is just to recognize that you 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:54.000 are having different kinds of conversations, right, just to just 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:56.760 to kind of understand that they that that's why you're 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.320 feeling to connect. And then this is where questions become 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.119 so important, because the way that we figure out what 0:19:02.240 --> 0:19:04.240 kind of conversation is occurring, the way that we align 0:19:04.320 --> 0:19:07.880 with each other, is by asking questions. And sometimes it's 0:19:07.920 --> 0:19:10.720 as simple as asking a question like what does this 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:13.280