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Speaker 1: Welcome to How to Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,

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Speaker 1: and today we're talking super Communicating with Charles Dohig.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, think about any great relationship that you have,

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Speaker 2: So whether that's with your partner or a friend, even.

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Speaker 3: Like a boss or a supervisor.

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Speaker 2: I'd say that in each of those examples, there's a

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Speaker 2: really good chance that you're both pretty dang good at

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Speaker 2: talking or communicating with each other. And you know, at

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Speaker 2: the core of any healthy relationship is the ability to

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Speaker 2: feel heard and to be understood, and that's what we're

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Speaker 2: going to be discussing today. We're joined by Charles Dohig,

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Speaker 2: the author of new book Super Communicators is coming out

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Speaker 2: next week, where he explores everything from how marriage counselors

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Speaker 2: teach couples to hear what it is that unsaid, to

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Speaker 2: how NASA psychologists look for astronauts who are emotionally intelligent.

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Speaker 2: He gives some incredible examples in the book, but inter personally,

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Speaker 2: in our lives, deep meaningful connection to other people like

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Speaker 2: it is vital to living a fulfilling life, but practically speaking,

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Speaker 2: it's also really important when it comes to discussing money

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Speaker 2: with a partner, for instance, and so we're gonna get

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Speaker 2: into that as well. Charles, We're excited to have you

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Speaker 2: on the podcast again.

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Speaker 3: Thanks for having me on. This is a real treat

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Speaker 3: of course.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: The first question we ask every guest, even returning guests, Charles,

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Speaker 1: is what they like to splurge on. And last time

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Speaker 1: we spoke, I believe you had just bought an e

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Speaker 1: bike and that was that was your big splurge and

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Speaker 1: we could I can identify. I love my e bike,

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Speaker 1: my rad wagon that throw the kids on the back

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Speaker 1: of occasionally.

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Speaker 4: What do you like to splurge on? Now?

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Speaker 1: Has that been updated for twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 3: So it has a little bit And I will say

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Speaker 3: the e bikes worked out really really well. I was

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Speaker 3: very very happy with the we got the rad power

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Speaker 3: bikes also. But the I think the thing I splurge

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Speaker 3: on now is I started paying for the fancy credit cards,

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Speaker 3: not because like I want to impress anyone with a

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Speaker 3: credit card that I'm caring, but because it gives me

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Speaker 3: so many points and other benefits. And in particular, I

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Speaker 3: I pay for the American Express Platinum card, which and

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Speaker 3: the reason I like it is because what.

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Speaker 4: Is that six andey five dollars.

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Speaker 3: It's like something crazy. I mean, it's like every time

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Speaker 3: they charge it once a year and I'm like, why

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Speaker 3: am I doing this? But then I remember why I'm

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Speaker 3: doing it, which is that I'm able to book things

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Speaker 3: through their their travel website. And so whenever I check

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Speaker 3: into a hotel, if you book it through their their

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Speaker 3: travel website, they give you like free breakfast every morning,

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Speaker 3: and like free valet parking, you know, one hundred dollars

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Speaker 3: to spend at the risk on the property. And I

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Speaker 3: will say that like it feels like such an indulgence.

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Speaker 3: But when when I wake up and I'm like, you

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Speaker 3: know what, I can go eat breakfast and have whatever

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Speaker 3: I want because it's free.

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Speaker 4: It's kind of a smart move. It's kind of the

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Speaker 4: thing they're luny the way you get to right, Like.

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Speaker 3: You said, you asked for a splurge. This is what

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Speaker 3: I slurrege on. It's honestly, it's not.

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Speaker 2: It's it's almost less of a splurge because it's just

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Speaker 2: a smart financial move. If you know you're going to

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Speaker 2: take advantage of the different benefits, it's less like, oh,

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Speaker 2: this is something that has some sort of I.

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Speaker 3: Think it's true except that it's the same way that

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Speaker 3: like having a cost Co membership, you're like, well, i'll

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Speaker 3: definitely save money on toilet paper, except that whenever you

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Speaker 3: walk into Costco, you walk out with like three hundred

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Speaker 3: dollars worth of stuff, right toilet paper. And so I

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Speaker 3: think that's the thing that happens with the Amic Platinum

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Speaker 3: is that I'm like, oh, it's a free breakfast, so

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Speaker 3: I guess I'll stay at that slightly more expensive hotel.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in that way, you're able to honestly enjoy travel

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Speaker 2: a little bit more when you are going to do that.

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Speaker 2: I can get behind that. Yeah, Charles, So, I guess

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Speaker 2: the last time we had you on we were talking

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Speaker 2: about the Power of Habit. Some of your other books

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Speaker 2: you discussed accomplishment. Why did you pivot to writing about

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Speaker 2: communications specifically here in this book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. No, it's a great question, and the answer is that,

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Speaker 3: you know, when I was writing The Power of Habit

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Speaker 3: and Smarter, Faster, Better About Productivity, both of those books

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Speaker 3: were really like focused on the individual, right, they were

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Speaker 3: focused internally about how to become more successful. But the

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Speaker 3: truth of the matter is that, like most people's success

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Speaker 3: is not reliant just on themselves most of the time.

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Speaker 3: If we managed to achieve our goals, or we managed

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Speaker 3: to be a lead a happier and a healthier life,

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Speaker 3: it's because we are working with other people, whether they

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Speaker 3: be our spouse or coworkers, in ways that allow us

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Speaker 3: to do that. And at the core of that is communication, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we all know people who are masters in

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Speaker 3: wonderful at communication and we see the benefits that they

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Speaker 3: get from it. And the thing that I learned is,

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Speaker 3: you know, in the last decade we've learned a lot

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Speaker 3: about the science of communication, and anyone can become one

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Speaker 3: of those people. Anyone can become a super communicator. And

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Speaker 3: so I thought that was something important to share with readers.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you mentioned the term already. What is a

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Speaker 1: super communicator at? Like, what's the goal we're aiming for here?

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Speaker 1: We try to become the next Tony Robbins Philly have

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Speaker 1: packed out stadium or something in getting people to jump

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Speaker 1: up and down, or like, what are we going here

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Speaker 1: for with the super communicator thing?

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Speaker 3: What we're going for is we're going for connection. And

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Speaker 3: here's here's the best way to think about what a

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Speaker 3: supercommunicator is. Let me ask you guys. This So if

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Speaker 3: you've had a bad day and like just and you

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Speaker 3: need to talk to someone who you know is going

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Speaker 3: to make you feel better, Like just talking to them

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Speaker 3: is going to really help. Does that person pop into

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Speaker 3: your mind immediately? Like, do you know who you would

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Speaker 3: call right away?

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Speaker 4: Yep? Yeah, for sure?

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Speaker 3: Who? And who is it?

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Speaker 4: Wife? Same here? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, So your wife for you is a super communicator,

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Speaker 3: and you are probably a super communicator for your wives. Right.

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Speaker 3: You have the ability to connect almost effortlessly, to make

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Speaker 3: each other feel genuinely listened to and heard, to speak

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Speaker 3: in a way that the other person doesn't have trouble

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Speaker 3: understanding what you're trying to tell them. And this is

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Speaker 3: what super community. Now, there are some people who can

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Speaker 3: do this consistently, who can do this with almost anyone, right,

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Speaker 3: And we've all met those people before. And what they're

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Speaker 3: doing is they know a couple of skills that are

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Speaker 3: really important. They think a little bit more about communication,

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Speaker 3: and so they've taught themselves a few skills, either through

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Speaker 3: practice or through intuition. But most importantly, super com communicators

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Speaker 3: are people who show others that they want to connect

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Speaker 3: with them. And it's that demonstration of wanting to connect,

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Speaker 3: wanting to understand that makes us and this is hardwired

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Speaker 3: into your brains, makes us feel closer and more trusting

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Speaker 3: and to like the other person more and ultimately to

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Speaker 3: feel happier. I love that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So one of those skills is actually question asking,

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Speaker 2: Like that seems to be a really pivotal part of

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Speaker 2: healthy communication. I think there's a study that you cite

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Speaker 2: in the book that found that supercommunicators tend to ask

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Speaker 2: something like ten to twenty times more questions than normal

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Speaker 2: folks and conversations. Why is it that these questions are

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Speaker 2: so essential to good communication?

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Speaker 3: Well, it's so questions are really really powerful, and you're

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Speaker 3: exactly right. They ask ten to twenty times as many

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Speaker 3: questions as the average person. Now, some of those questions

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Speaker 3: are quite like hey, what you make of that? Or like, oh,

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Speaker 3: what'd you say next? Right, they're questions that are so

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Speaker 3: slight we hardly even register them as questions. But what

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Speaker 3: they do is they invite us into the conversation. They're

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Speaker 3: showing that this person is listening, they're showing that they

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Speaker 3: want to learn more, they're showing that they're interested in us,

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Speaker 3: and that feels really good. But then The other types

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Speaker 3: of questions that the supercommunicators ask are what's known as

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Speaker 3: deep questions. And deep questions can sound intimidating, But what

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Speaker 3: a deep question is is it simply something that asks

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Speaker 3: someone to talk a little bit about their values, or

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Speaker 3: their beliefs, or their experiences. And it can be as

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Speaker 3: simple as you know, you bump into someone and you

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Speaker 3: say what do you do for a living and they say, oh,

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Speaker 3: I'm a lawyer? And you say, oh, oh, that's interesting.

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Speaker 3: What made you decide to go to law school?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 3: Do you do you love practicing the law? What's the

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Speaker 3: most interesting case you've handled recently? All three of those

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Speaker 3: are easy questions to ask, right, they don't seem like

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Speaker 3: they're deep or overly intimate. But what I'm really asking

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Speaker 3: that person is tell me about who you are, tell

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Speaker 3: me about the experiences that led you to this career.

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Speaker 3: Tell me about what you love about your work, Tell

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Speaker 3: me about what makes you passionate. Those are really really

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Speaker 3: powerful things to ask someone. And what we know is

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Speaker 3: that if somebody answers those questions, they will expose inevitably

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Speaker 3: a little bit of vulnerability. They'll tell you something meaningful

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Speaker 3: about themselves. And if you reciprocate. If you show something

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Speaker 3: meaningful about yourself, you'll feel close.

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Speaker 1: Can asking too many questions ever be a negative? Like so,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Charles, I was at a hang with some

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Speaker 1: people I didn't really know very well. I'm used to

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Speaker 1: working in like radio for so many years, and you

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Speaker 1: know what the enemy was dead air, right, and so

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Speaker 1: you fill every space with question or conversation. And so

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty good at this point at asking people questions

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Speaker 1: and pulling them out. But then sometimes I'll walk away

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Speaker 1: from that conversation and I'm like, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: they know me at all. So I guess can asking

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Speaker 1: questions ever become can never backfire if you're maybe like

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Speaker 1: me and you're just on the question asking offensive all

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Speaker 1: the time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So it's a really really good question because we've

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Speaker 3: all been in that situation where it feels like we're

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Speaker 3: asking question after questions and it feels more like an

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Speaker 3: interview or an interrogation than a conversation, right, And that's

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Speaker 3: not what we want to go for. As I mentioned

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Speaker 3: this back Joel, exactly, this reciprocity thing is really really important.

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Speaker 3: And so oftentimes what we find when we ask a

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Speaker 3: deep question is that it's very natural for us to

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Speaker 3: answer the same question even if it's not asked, because

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Speaker 3: some people, some people are not good at asking questions, right, Like,

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Speaker 3: we ask us a couple of questions and then we

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Speaker 3: kind of wait for them to ask us a question back,

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Speaker 3: and they don't. But one of the nice things about

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Speaker 3: deep questions is that we can say, oh, oh, you

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Speaker 3: went to law school because like, you had this experience

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Speaker 3: as a kid seeing like you know, injustice. It's interesting.

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Speaker 3: I went to medical school for kind of a similar reason.

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Speaker 3: I like saw, you know, parts of my city that

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Speaker 3: we're getting medical care. The thing about deep questions is

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Speaker 3: that they set us up to answer the same question ourselves,

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Speaker 3: even if it hasn't been asked, And that's what gets

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Speaker 3: us out of that interrogation interview format. That's the thing

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Speaker 3: that allows us to start connecting with each other. Because

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Speaker 3: this our brains are actually hardwired to pay attention to

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Speaker 3: anything that looks like vulnerability. And this actually makes sense,

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Speaker 3: right because in the past, if if an individual was vulnerable,

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Speaker 3: that meant that they were the weakest part of your tribe,

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Speaker 3: or that if you were attacking, that that's the person

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Speaker 3: to attack. And so our brains evolved to pay really

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Speaker 3: close attention to anything that seems like vulnerability. That's the

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Speaker 3: loudest form of communication possible. Now, vulnerability can be as

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Speaker 3: small as saying, oh, I went to law school because

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Speaker 3: you know, I saw like an uncle of mine get

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Speaker 3: arrested once. And the reason why that's vulnerable is because

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Speaker 3: it opens me up to your judgment. Now, I might

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Speaker 3: not care about your judgment. I might not care at all,

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Speaker 3: but simply opening myself to judgment it triggers those parts

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Speaker 3: of my brain that make me pay close attention to

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Speaker 3: how you react. And if you react by saying something

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Speaker 3: equally meaningful, something equally vulnerable, then it'll it helps us

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Speaker 3: feel closer to each other. In fact, we're almost powerless

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Speaker 3: not to feel closer and more trusting of each other

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Speaker 3: when someone engages in this reciprocity.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense. Yeah, and you you outline in the

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Speaker 2: book too how that it is very different than mimicry, right,

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Speaker 2: and so, like a small example might be if we're

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Speaker 2: talking about money, Let's say you are starting to set

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Speaker 2: some financial goals. It's still pretty early on in the year,

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Speaker 2: so maybe you're like, hey, what if we're able to

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Speaker 2: achieve this we're not talking about just saying yeah, let's

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Speaker 2: achieve that, right, and just being just parroting whatever it

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Speaker 2: is that they maybe your partner's saying, but it might

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Speaker 2: mean Okay, man, that's awesome, Like let me share with

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Speaker 2: you what my hopes and dreams are. Yes, and hope

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Speaker 2: obviously hopefully they align. But there's there's something there that

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Speaker 2: goes beyond just imitation.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that's exactly right, that's exactly right. And you know

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Speaker 3: in improv they have this phrase yes and that whatever

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Speaker 3: someone says, you have to say yes and to them

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Speaker 3: and play building on it. And the same thing is

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Speaker 3: kind of true in conversations, which is that when somebody

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Speaker 3: brings something up, it's not enough to simply say It's

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Speaker 3: not enough to simply listen or say that's interesting. What

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Speaker 3: you have to do is you have to show that

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Speaker 3: you're listening and then build on it. And in fact,

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Speaker 3: when we have conversations in conflict, and oftentimes conversations about

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Speaker 3: money involves some degree of conflict, right because we're might

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Speaker 3: be feeling heated, or we might be feeling scared, or

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Speaker 3: there's just a lot of emotions in conversations that involve

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Speaker 3: just a little bit of conflict or a little bit

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Speaker 3: of tension. There's a technique known as looping for understanding

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Speaker 3: that has been shown to be incredibly powerful that does

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Speaker 3: exactly what you just said. And what's important is that

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Speaker 3: this technique works because it proves to the other person

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Speaker 3: that you're listening to them, that you want to understand.

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Speaker 3: And there's three steps to it. The first is ask

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Speaker 3: a question, preferably a deep question, if you can. The

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Speaker 3: second step is repeat back in your own words what

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Speaker 3: you just heard them say, right, exactly what you just said.

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Speaker 3: Don't mimic them, but if you have to take a

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Speaker 3: couple of seconds to think about what you're going to say,

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Speaker 3: that's okay, because what we're doing is we're proving that

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Speaker 3: we're processing, we're proving that we're listening. And then step

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Speaker 3: number three, and this is the one that most people

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Speaker 3: forget but is a particularly important in conflict, ask if

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Speaker 3: you got it right, because it might be that you

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Speaker 3: didn't actually understand what the person was trying to tell you.

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Speaker 3: But also by asking if you got it right, you

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Speaker 3: give you're asking them for permission to acknowledge that you

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Speaker 3: understand that you're listening closely, and as a result, they're

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Speaker 3: going to want to listen closely back to you and

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Speaker 3: understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 1: You're using some therapist techniques here too, Charles in this book, right.

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Speaker 1: And I know because my wife is currently in grad

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Speaker 1: school to become a therapist, and we're talking about a

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Speaker 1: lot of these concepts at home and how she's implementing

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Speaker 1: them in the therapy room.

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Speaker 4: I have a question too. We talked to the.

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Speaker 1: Before we started recording about kind of COVID and the

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Speaker 1: impact that that had. We mark our world now pre

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Speaker 1: COVID and post COVID in so many ways, and how

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Speaker 1: do you think that change the dynamics of communication for

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Speaker 1: so many people as we maybe were treated more into ourselves,

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Speaker 1: into our families. And Yeah, it seems like your book

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Speaker 1: is so necessary right now as we're trying as getting

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Speaker 1: back to normal and trying to figure out what it

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Speaker 1: looks like to communicate in the real world again.

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Speaker 3: Now. In fact, that's one of the reasons I wrote

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Speaker 3: the book is I felt like I felt like post

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Speaker 3: COVID we had forgotten a lot about communication. I also

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Speaker 3: felt like we're living at a time and I don't

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Speaker 3: think this is even controversial to say that a lot

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Speaker 3: of people feel divided, right that we feel like we

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Speaker 3: can't have conversations with people who who believe different things

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Speaker 3: or come from different backgrounds, and that's really hard because

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Speaker 3: we want to connect with those people. We want to understand.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the things that happened during COVID

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Speaker 3: is that people just fell out of practice of having conversations, right.

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Speaker 3: I remember I was so I live in California now,

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Speaker 3: but I was living in New York at the time,

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Speaker 3: and I would read the subway every single day. So

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Speaker 3: I was around, you know, hundreds to thousands of people,

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Speaker 3: and then COVID happened, and suddenly all of that stuff.

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Speaker 3: In any given day, I might see literally just my family, yeah,

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Speaker 3: for a week or a month, and everyone who's listening,

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Speaker 3: you've had this experience. And even now that COVID, COVID

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Speaker 3: isn't over. But even now that the pandemic is done,

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Speaker 3: I still see that there's fewer barbecues, there's fewer get togethers.

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Speaker 3: We forgot how to talk to each other in an easy, conversational,

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Speaker 3: fun way for some settings. And so the key there

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Speaker 3: is literally just to practice it. Because our brains are

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Speaker 3: designed to push us to talk to other people. Our

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Speaker 3: brains are designed to push us to connect. That's communication

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Speaker 3: has been Homo Sapien's superpower. The thing that allows us

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Speaker 3: to succeed far better than any other species is that

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Speaker 3: we can talk to each other. We can share ideas

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Speaker 3: and feelings, and so learning reminding ourselves of the skills

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Speaker 3: of how to do that can be really really valuable

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Speaker 3: because that's where most of us find our meaning and life.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right.

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Speaker 2: Also in the book, you talk about some of the

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Speaker 2: different kinds of conversations.

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Speaker 4: That we have.

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Speaker 2: Charles, right, So how do we determine which kind of

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Speaker 2: conversation with somebody?

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Speaker 3: And there's actually a story involving me and my wife

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Speaker 3: and money that kind of visit the core of this.

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Speaker 3: So my wife and I we had this is like

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Speaker 3: years ago, we went on this vacation to Florida and

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Speaker 3: it was just the two of us, but we found

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Speaker 3: a babysitter for the kids and we went to this

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Speaker 3: like spa. We were in some resort and for some reason,

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Speaker 3: money came up in our and like and we started

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Speaker 3: arguing about money, like literally in the hallway of the spa,

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Speaker 3: and it just and like we neither of us could

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Speaker 3: let it go like like I was, like, you know,

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Speaker 3: I was, I was. I was telling my wife that

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Speaker 3: we need to budget more, but really I was really

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Speaker 3: really angry. And she would come up with these these solutions.

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Speaker 3: She would say like, look, here's a budgeting way, and

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Speaker 3: here's a budgeting way. And I would say I say no, no, no,

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Speaker 3: you're not listening to me, like like I don't. I

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Speaker 3: don't want to solve this problem. I want you to

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Speaker 3: understand like what I'm feeling. Yeah, And and like we

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Speaker 3: argued for I don't know, an hour and a half

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Speaker 3: in a spa. It totally it was terrible.

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Speaker 4: It was the worst relaxed. Yeah, it was great.

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Speaker 3: That great. So afterwards I started calling these researchers and

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Speaker 3: asked them like what is happening here? Like why did

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Speaker 3: why did why couldn't we stop this conversation? Why couldn't

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Speaker 3: we hear each other? And they said, well, look, here's

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Speaker 3: the thing you need to understand is that what the

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Speaker 3: one of the big things we've learned in the last

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Speaker 3: decade is that we think of a discussion as being

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Speaker 3: about one thing. Like you thought your discussion was about money,

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Speaker 3: but actually every discussion is made up of different kinds

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Speaker 3: of conversations, and if people aren't having the same kind

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Speaker 3: of conversation at the same moment, they won't really hear

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Speaker 3: each other. So when you went into that conversation, you

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Speaker 3: were having an emotional conversation and your wife, your wife

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Speaker 3: was responding with a practical conversation, and those actually used

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Speaker 3: different parts of our brains, And if you're not using

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Speaker 3: the same kind of brain at the same moment, you

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Speaker 3: can't really connect with each other. And most conversations fall

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Speaker 3: into one of three buckets. There's usually practical discussions, which

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Speaker 3: is what my wife was having, Emotional discussions, which which

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Speaker 3: where you want to share how you feel and you

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Speaker 3: don't want the other person to solve your problems, you

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Speaker 3: want them to empathize. And then social conversations where we

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Speaker 3: talk about how we relate to each other into society.

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Speaker 1: So if we're both having the wrong conversation right then

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Speaker 1: we're just kind of talking past each other. And she's

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Speaker 1: coming up with suggestions because she thinks the problem is, hey,

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Speaker 1: our budget isn't on track and we need to fix like,

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Speaker 1: we need to fix that part of things, and you're

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Speaker 1: saying no, like money is stressing me out, and it's

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Speaker 1: got this more emotional component. How do we get on

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Speaker 1: the same page that we're not talking past one another

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Speaker 1: near the beginning of that conversation. Yeah, so that we're

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Speaker 1: not wasting all that energy and you know, creating more

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Speaker 1: relational emotional turmoil.

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Speaker 3: Well, the first thing is just to recognize that you

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Speaker 3: are having different kinds of conversations, right, just to just

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Speaker 3: to kind of understand that they that that's why you're

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Speaker 3: feeling to connect. And then this is where questions become

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Speaker 3: so important, because the way that we figure out what

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Speaker 3: kind of conversation is occurring, the way that we align

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Speaker 3: with each other, is by asking questions. And sometimes it's

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Speaker 3: as simple as asking a question like what does this

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Speaker 3: mean to you. There's a story in the book about

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Speaker 3: this guy, doctor Beifar, a guy who's a surgeon, a

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Speaker 3: cancer surgeon, who kept on telling his patients that they

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Speaker 3: didn't need to get surgery, and they would insist on

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Speaker 3: getting the surgery even though he advised against it. And

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Speaker 3: so he tried to figure out what he was doing wrong,

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Speaker 3: and he talked to these professors at Harvard Business School,

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Speaker 3: and what they said is they said, look, you're going

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Speaker 3: into this conversation assuming you know what the other person

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Speaker 3: wants that they want your advice. But what if you

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Speaker 3: start by saying, what does this cancer diagnosis mean to you?

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Speaker 3: To find out what they actually want a need out

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Speaker 3: of this conversation. And so that's what he started doing.

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Speaker 3: A patient came in. He said, tell me the first question, like,

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Speaker 3: what does this cancer diagnosis mean to you? And the

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Speaker 3: guy starts talking about how his own father had died

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Speaker 3: when he was young and how that had really impacted

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Speaker 3: him and his mom and he didn't want to do

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Speaker 3: that to his wife. And Doctor Dy realized, oh, this

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Speaker 3: guy isn't asking for medical advice. He wants to talk

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Speaker 3: about the emotions of being worried for his family, trying

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Speaker 3: to protect his family. So doctor Dye matches him what's

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Speaker 3: known as the matching principle in psychology, and once they

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Speaker 3: have that emotional conversation, then they can move onto practical

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Speaker 3: topics and then they can talk about treatment options together.

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Speaker 3: But the key is if you ask a question first

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Speaker 3: and you listen, you figure out what each person actually

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Speaker 3: wants out of that conversation.

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Speaker 1: It's almost like the bedside manner needs to be there,

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Speaker 1: not only in the doctor's office, but then also in

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Speaker 1: our homes and in our friendships, like, yeah, we can't

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Speaker 1: just address the optimization problem or you know, maybe this

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Speaker 1: specific pointed thing, but we have to be able to

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Speaker 1: identify with the person who's speaking to so we can

435
00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: have a conversation that actually lands us where we want

436
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:53,359
Speaker 1: to go and we want to get to. We've got

437
00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,800
Speaker 1: more questions for Charles. We want to specifically talk about. Okay,

438
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:57,919
Speaker 1: what if we're having a budgeting conversation, how can we

439
00:20:57,960 --> 00:20:59,760
Speaker 1: make those maybe more effective?

440
00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:01,640
Speaker 4: Get a few more questions. We'll get to with Charles

441
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:02,280
Speaker 4: right after this.

442
00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: Right we are back from the break, We're talking about

443
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,000
Speaker 2: super communicating with Charles Douhig. And honestly, Charles, part of

444
00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,479
Speaker 2: the reason we wanted to have you on is because

445
00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:23,840
Speaker 2: money conversations they can just be fraught with peril. Like

446
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 2: Joel mentioned just before the break, like a budgeting meeting.

447
00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,000
Speaker 2: You gave an instance of how you and your wife, right,

448
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: this is a trap that y'all kind of fell into.

449
00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 4: Make your hair stand on edge.

450
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:35,440
Speaker 2: And because of that, though, I think a lot of

451
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 2: couples tend to tend to avoid some of these conversations,

452
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:40,800
Speaker 2: but then when they do that, they miss out on

453
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 2: all the positive benefits of getting on the same page

454
00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: financially making progress.

455
00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:45,040
Speaker 4: With their goals.

456
00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,960
Speaker 2: So do you have any tips for those couples who

457
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 2: might be avoiding the conversation because they're worried about the

458
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,120
Speaker 2: relational consequences?

459
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:52,320
Speaker 3: Right?

460
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 2: They don't want to fight, and is the first step

461
00:21:55,600 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 2: maybe identifying what kind of conversation that you are about

462
00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:01,520
Speaker 2: to have, sort of like you talked about just before

463
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: the break.

464
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:03,440
Speaker 3: I think that's part of it, and I think even

465
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,760
Speaker 3: before you do that. So a lot of what we

466
00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:09,639
Speaker 3: know about having conversations about money is also true about

467
00:22:09,640 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 3: having conversations about topics like race and gender, which is

468
00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 3: really interesting, right because we don't think of those things

469
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 3: as being similar, and yet they all tap into a

470
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,520
Speaker 3: lot of anxieties when we tell someone you need to

471
00:22:22,560 --> 00:22:25,800
Speaker 3: talk about this. And so what happens with money is

472
00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 3: that oftentimes the thing that's preventing us from having the

473
00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,880
Speaker 3: conversation and the thing that's ruining the conversation is that

474
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,600
Speaker 3: we have an anxiety about what's going to be said

475
00:22:36,800 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 3: and how it's going to be heard, that we're afraid

476
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 3: to voice the anxiety itself, and as a result, the

477
00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,840
Speaker 3: anxiety pushes us to say to say things we might

478
00:22:46,880 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 3: not completely want in the way that we don't want

479
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 3: to say them, and it pushes us to hear things

480
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,640
Speaker 3: in the way that the other person isn't trying to communicate.

481
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 3: So what's the first thing that we should do before

482
00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,960
Speaker 3: we have a conversation about money. We should say, Look,

483
00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,040
Speaker 3: let's have a conversation about money, right, Like, let's find

484
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:03,439
Speaker 3: the right time to do this. It's we're not going

485
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 3: to do at two o'clock in the morning. We're going

486
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 3: to do it at ten after the kids are left

487
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 3: for school. But let's set aside half an hour and

488
00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:13,640
Speaker 3: let's start by just saying, I want to acknowledge this

489
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 3: is a hard conversation and it's going to be awkward.

490
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 3: I might say the wrong thing, or say something in

491
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 3: a way that I don't intend. You might misunderstand me,

492
00:23:23,720 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 3: or you might say the wrong thing, and I want

493
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,760
Speaker 3: you to know I am not going to hold that

494
00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,399
Speaker 3: against you, and I want to ask you not to

495
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,240
Speaker 3: hold my mistakes against me. So let's just acknowledge at

496
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,359
Speaker 3: the outset this is potentially an awkward conversation. Then the

497
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 3: next thing that we can do is we can decide

498
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: what kind of a conversation we want to start with. Now.

499
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: The truth is that most of the time when we're

500
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: talking about money, we think that we should start with

501
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:53,399
Speaker 3: that practical conversation, right. We think we should talk about

502
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,919
Speaker 3: making plans and creating budgets together and how that's going

503
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 3: to work. But the thing that's happening in money conversation

504
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,639
Speaker 3: is that emotions are so pitched that they can ruin

505
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 3: that conversation because I'm going to react with fear or anger,

506
00:24:09,800 --> 00:24:12,040
Speaker 3: or I'm gonna hear something you're saying and not understand

507
00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:13,920
Speaker 3: it because it taps into some anxiety that I have,

508
00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 3: and so oftentimes after saying this is going to be awkward,

509
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 3: the first thing we can do is to say, let's

510
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:23,040
Speaker 3: start with an emotional conversation. Tell me, like, how do

511
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 3: you feel about the money in our life right now?

512
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,119
Speaker 3: Are you worried, are you satisfied, Are you feeling okay?

513
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,640
Speaker 3: Are you feeling kind of uptight? Just tell me about

514
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,720
Speaker 3: how you feel, and then I'm going to tell you

515
00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:38,400
Speaker 3: how I feel, and we're gonna loop each other. I'm

516
00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,880
Speaker 3: gonna repeat back what I hear you saying to show

517
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 3: that I'm proved, to prove that I am listening and

518
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:45,760
Speaker 3: also to make sure I'm getting it right. And then

519
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 3: once we're aligned, once we've sort of gotten this emotional

520
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,760
Speaker 3: thing on the table, then we can start having a

521
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 3: practical conversation.

522
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

523
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean, I think people often think that money and

524
00:24:55,880 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 1: money conversations are about the spreadsheet, but so much a

525
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 1: massive percentage of how we think about personal finances has

526
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:07,440
Speaker 1: to do with our background, our history. You know, how

527
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 1: our parents handled money. There's so much emotional and historical

528
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: kind of stuff we have to dig through. It's not

529
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 1: just dollars and cents in spreadsheet stuff. And when we

530
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 1: treat it like that, we're often at the risk of

531
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 1: being misunderstood or not having a productive conversation, or maybe

532
00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:26,360
Speaker 1: like overshooting and not really seeing what our spouse, our

533
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: partner is going through.

534
00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 4: I want to talk to you. You say that the

535
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 4: goal isn't.

536
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 1: To win the conversation, right, but you also say that

537
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: it is a negotiation of sorts. So how does taking

538
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,760
Speaker 1: the win loss approach set us up for failure and

539
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: how does negotiation it make us actually have better conversations?

540
00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah? So, in psychology, what they refer to the starts

541
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 3: of conversations. They refer to them as quiet negotiations, and

542
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,919
Speaker 3: you're exactly right that the goal of this negotiation, that's

543
00:25:54,000 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 3: quiet negotiation, it is not to win, right, And oftentimes

544
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 3: we go into a conversation thinking my goal is to

545
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 3: get the other person to agree with me, or my

546
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 3: goal is to convince them of something, or my goal

547
00:26:04,600 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: is just for them to think I'm smart, But actually

548
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: that sets our conversation up to be a failure. The

549
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 3: real goal of any conversation is understanding each other. Simply

550
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: understanding what the other person is trying to say, make

551
00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 3: sure that they understand you. And if you walk away

552
00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 3: disagreeing with each other, but you both understand each other,

553
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 3: then that conversation is still a success. So this quiet negotiation,

554
00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 3: instead of trying to negotiate where I win something, my

555
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 3: goal is to negotiate to understand what you want a

556
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,359
Speaker 3: need out of this conversation and to share what I

557
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 3: want to need out of this conversation. That's how we

558
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 3: create what's a win win negotiation. Right, whether it's it's

559
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,879
Speaker 3: a conversational negotiation or if you're trying to close a deal,

560
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 3: the best deals are the ones where there is a

561
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 3: win win, where everyone walks away happier, than they were before.

562
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 3: And if we go into that beginning of the conversation

563
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 3: and we say, look, my goal is to figure out

564
00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 3: what we both want to need and to understand, then

565
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,800
Speaker 3: what you'll start doing is you'll start doing these little experiments.

566
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:05,960
Speaker 3: And most of us do them without even realizing we're

567
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 3: doing them. Right, we might we might make a joke,

568
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 3: and then we'll look to see if the other person

569
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: laughs along or if they're still serious. If this is

570
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 3: a formal conversation, we might interrupt each other a few

571
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:17,160
Speaker 3: times at the beginning of the conversation to figure out

572
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 3: is this a conversation where we pingpong back and forth,

573
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 3: or is it one where you talk and then I talk.

574
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 3: We conduct these experiments without actually even thinking about them.

575
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 3: But super communicators, people who can do this consistently, they

576
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 3: pay a little bit more attention to how the other

577
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 3: person reacts. They try a little bit more, they experiment more,

578
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 3: and most importantly, if they try something and it doesn't work,

579
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 3: they don't see it as a failure. They don't see

580
00:27:41,000 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 3: it as an awkwardness. They see it as a piece

581
00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 3: of data they can use.

582
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,479
Speaker 2: That's I mean, that's a part of why it's been

583
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,720
Speaker 2: so hard, I think for folks to communicate online. But right,

584
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: like you talk about the body in the facialist comments

585
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,439
Speaker 2: are great now, but just like like you said, just

586
00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 2: picking up on like a sigh or a shifting in

587
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 2: the seats, or like a waiver in someone's voice, like

588
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 2: you talk a lot about that, and even how like

589
00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 2: babies that they're able to like there's a certain amount

590
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: of hungry cry or whatever.

591
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, like you got that.

592
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:13,880
Speaker 2: But even just the reciprocity that a baby exhibits when

593
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:16,000
Speaker 2: when they're looking at their mother.

594
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:18,200
Speaker 4: You talk a good bit about that in the book.

595
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,639
Speaker 3: That's that's exactly true. Now that being said, that doesn't

596
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 3: mean you have to have that visual element right. In fact,

597
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,879
Speaker 3: one of the interesting things is that, again, because our

598
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 3: brains are designed to be good at communication, they often

599
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 3: adapt to the situation that we're in. So so one

600
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,320
Speaker 3: of my favorite examples of this is that when telephones

601
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: first became popular about one hundred years ago, there were

602
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,360
Speaker 3: all these articles and studies saying telephones will never be

603
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 3: used for meaningful conversations because you can't see each other.

604
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,160
Speaker 3: So it's basically going to be like the telegraph, where

605
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: we use it to send you know, short messages or

606
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 3: orders to the grocery store. And that was actually true

607
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 3: when they wrote that. They have transcripts of people during

608
00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 3: that early period, and what you hear is that people

609
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:02,280
Speaker 3: have these very stilted conversations. They didn't know how to

610
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 3: talk on the phone. Now, by the time you and

611
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 3: I and everyone else listening was a teenager, we could

612
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 3: talk on the phone for like seven hours in a stretch,

613
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:12,680
Speaker 3: right and have these real, meaningful conversations. And it's because

614
00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 3: we learned how to use the phone the same way

615
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: that our kids today and ourselves are learning how to

616
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:23,000
Speaker 3: use online communication now. The key, though, is to pay

617
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:27,720
Speaker 3: attention to how different channels require have different rules. That

618
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,960
Speaker 3: when I'm I'm texting you, that's need to I need

619
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 3: to communicate differently than when I'm emailing you, than when

620
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 3: I call you, than when I see you. And most

621
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 3: of us know this intuitively, but then sometimes we forget

622
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 3: because everything's so fast moving. We jump online, we type

623
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 3: a note to someone, we can hear the sarcasm in

624
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 3: our own head of what we're saying, but when they

625
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 3: read it, they don't read it as sarcastic. They read

626
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 3: it as serious, and they get upset and so the

627
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: key is just to remember our brains can adapt to

628
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,640
Speaker 3: new channels of communication, but we have to remind ourselves

629
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:01,080
Speaker 3: that the rules are different from channel to channel.

630
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:01,480
Speaker 4: That's true.

631
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,239
Speaker 2: Okay, So I want to go back to, like, as

632
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 2: you were talking about the negotiation, the quiet negotiation process.

633
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 2: I love how you wrote about the fact that like

634
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 2: it's a creative endeavor. Yeah, you use language and similar

635
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 2: language to kind of describe that, but basically what you're

636
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: doing is by having that sort of quiet negotiation by

637
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 2: sort of pingponging back and forth, especially when you are

638
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:23,120
Speaker 2: talking about something like again when it comes to money,

639
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 2: is I think if you can go into something with

640
00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: an open mind, go into a conversation with an open

641
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: mind and not necessarily having a fixed and goal, you

642
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 2: both both partners might end up at a goal or

643
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 2: result that neither one of them could have come to

644
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 2: on their own, where there's maybe a little bit less

645
00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: sacrifice than either one of them could have ever imagined.

646
00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,200
Speaker 2: And how that's just such an important part of the

647
00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: communication process.

648
00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: That's exactly right, And think about how think about how

649
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 3: powerful creativity can be in finding new ways to talk

650
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,800
Speaker 3: about things that are hard. So one of the things

651
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 3: that I find. I've been married for about twenty years now,

652
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: but when I talk to friends who are dating, they

653
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 3: say that, you know, one of the hardest conversations and

654
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 3: usually happens on like the third or fourth day, maybe

655
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: the fifth is talking about money because they want to

656
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 3: figure out are they aligned? Right? Are they are? They?

657
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 3: Do they both do? They both like to save in

658
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 3: similar ways? Do they both like to spend in similar ways?

659
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,680
Speaker 3: Because if you're if you're not aligned on money, it

660
00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,479
Speaker 3: can be hard and not everyone is perfectly aligned, but

661
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: but you should at least know. And so one of

662
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: my friends what he does is he try. He says, like, look,

663
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 3: I'd like us to talk about money, and I know

664
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 3: this is really emotional. It causes a lot of anxiety.

665
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 3: So instead of talking about actual money, I want to

666
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 3: talk about like how what we have spent on that

667
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 3: has been really meaningful to us and what that says

668
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 3: about us.

669
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:43,800
Speaker 4: The old craft beer equivalent.

670
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 3: I like it exactly, exactly, And the reason why I

671
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 3: love this is because it's really creative. Right, It's a

672
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:53,240
Speaker 3: creative way to talk about wealth, but it also asks

673
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 3: the other person to be creative to explain aspects of

674
00:31:57,120 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 3: themselves that I might not know if you tell me. Look,

675
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 3: the best thing I spent money on last year was

676
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 3: that vacation I went on because I got to see

677
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 3: I got to hang out with this one friend that

678
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: I only see usually for an hour or two at

679
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 3: a time. Now I'm beginning to learn, like for you,

680
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:14,200
Speaker 3: money is about experiences. Money is about connecting with people

681
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: that you don't have a lot of time to see otherwise.

682
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 3: And that helps me understand how you feel about money

683
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,800
Speaker 3: in general. And that's really powerful.

684
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you said that, because there are ways,

685
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 1: and that's what Matt and I really strive to do

686
00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: here on the show too, to optimistically endeavor into that

687
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 1: conversation instead of like the pointed question that puts people

688
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 1: on their back heels, right, And that's what the craft

689
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: beer equivalent is. It's like, let's lean into the things,

690
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: the positive ways that we think of money making an

691
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 1: impact on our happiness and on our relationships, instead of

692
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,880
Speaker 1: like the shame that comes along with I spent too

693
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: much on that thing. And we can get to that

694
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: later on down the road, but let's first think about

695
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: the way money lights us up and the way that

696
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,360
Speaker 1: it can actually produce a certain amount of happiness in

697
00:32:57,400 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 1: our lives if we spend it intentionally versus the other

698
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:01,400
Speaker 1: side of the equation.

699
00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 3: You know, absolutely, And I think in some ways, I've

700
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: always felt like money is a language, yeah, right, the

701
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 3: same way that like when you first learn French, it's

702
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 3: really hard and you have to think about every single

703
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:16,480
Speaker 3: thing that you're saying. And then at some point it's

704
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: not like you get fluent right away, but at some

705
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 3: point you just kind of you know enough of the

706
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,160
Speaker 3: language that you can fall back on things and you

707
00:33:24,160 --> 00:33:28,000
Speaker 3: feel a little comfortable with it, and as a result,

708
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:31,720
Speaker 3: you feel less anxious going in to talk to a

709
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,720
Speaker 3: conversation in French. And that's exactly the same thing that

710
00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 3: I think, and that doesn't and you're gonna make mistakes,

711
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 3: you're gonna say things wrong, but the other person's gonna

712
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 3: understand and they're going to forgive you. That's kind of

713
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: what the conversation with money is like. Is that I

714
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 3: want to get to a place where I know that

715
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm gonna say something wrong and I know I'm this

716
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 3: is gonna be kind of awkward, but I know enough

717
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 3: to feel confident to try and explain how I feel

718
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 3: about money, and I know that you're going to listen to.

719
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,120
Speaker 1: Me well, And I like what you said too earlier

720
00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 1: about acknowledging the hard and being willing to voice some

721
00:34:02,040 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: of those anxieties and letting your partner know or your

722
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 1: friend know whoever you're talking to in advance. Hey, guess what,

723
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: this isn't going to be a perfect conversation. Please forgive

724
00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: me in advance. And that sets up the table for

725
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: I think, the ability for everyone to feel a little

726
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:15,879
Speaker 1: vulnerable a.

727
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:17,160
Speaker 4: Grace filled conversation.

728
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've heard well, and you talked too about

729
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: prepping before an important conversation. So let's say we're having

730
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 1: that budget combo. What sort of preparation would be helpful

731
00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 1: in order to get the most out of it. So

732
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: part of it is just saying, listen, like having that

733
00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: pre combo conbo. But then other things too, like what

734
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 1: else do we need to do to be able to

735
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 1: be fully prepared to have a really good productive combo.

736
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: It's a great question. And there was actually a really

737
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:43,279
Speaker 3: interesting study that was done where some researchers went into

738
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 3: an investment bank. And this was a place where like

739
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:48,719
Speaker 3: people like got in fights all the time. They would

740
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:50,920
Speaker 3: just scream at each other. They would all like, you know,

741
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 3: they were all masters of the universe, and they all

742
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 3: wanted to dominate. And of course many of the conversations

743
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 3: were about money, right because they're bankers. And so what

744
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,720
Speaker 3: these researchers did, they said, look for the next week,

745
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 3: before every single meeting, what we want each person to

746
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,800
Speaker 3: do is write down, on like an index card, one sentence.

747
00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 3: We want you to write down your goal for this

748
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 3: meeting and the mood that you hope to that you

749
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: hope will be established. And so people did this before

750
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 3: every meeting. It would take like ten seconds. They would

751
00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 3: sit down, they would write this sentence, then they would

752
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 3: stick the card in their pocket. They never showed each

753
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 3: other the cards, they never even discussed the cards. But

754
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: the incidence of conflict in that week went down by

755
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 3: eighty percent in those meetings. And the reason why is

756
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: because once people knew what they wanted to accomplish, and

757
00:35:37,000 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 3: once they had an idea of the mood that they

758
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 3: were hoping to establish, it made it much easier for

759
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: them to communicate that to other people, and those other

760
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,040
Speaker 3: people could communicate back. So before we have a conversation

761
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,480
Speaker 3: about money, the same tactic is really really valuable each person.

762
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 3: Just sit down. You don't even have to write it,

763
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:55,600
Speaker 3: you can just say it to yourself. What do you

764
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 3: want to get out of this conversation? Like, what's the

765
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 3: number one most important thing? And then what kind of mood?

766
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,240
Speaker 3: Do you want this to be light and like joy filled?

767
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:07,239
Speaker 3: Do you want this to be serious? Do you want

768
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 3: this to be something where like we're getting down to business.

769
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,040
Speaker 3: Simply deciding what we want and what mood we want.

770
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,720
Speaker 3: That helps us communicate to the other person what we need.

771
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:19,640
Speaker 3: That helps us match each other and have the same

772
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 3: kind of conversation. And again it only takes ten seconds,

773
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 3: but it can be transformative.

774
00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

775
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: I love that because you're also just being respectful, right

776
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: because in a certain sense, what you're doing is you're

777
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: preparing and you're thinking like a few steps ahead as

778
00:36:32,600 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 2: to what it is that you want to accomplish. And I

779
00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:37,040
Speaker 2: think that can keep keep couples in particular from getting

780
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: sucked into some of these small fights that they might

781
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 2: find themselves and as they start bickering over sort of

782
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,000
Speaker 2: the just the hard numbers and be like, well, all

783
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: of a sudden, we're arguing over how much you pay

784
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 2: to go to the gym, And really what this is

785
00:36:48,120 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: about is just maybe about a conversation about health and yeah.

786
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:54,480
Speaker 3: Or control or any number of things, right.

787
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:56,200
Speaker 1: Or maybe I didn't get the thing I wanted because

788
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:57,960
Speaker 1: we didn't explicitly say I could spend money in this

789
00:36:58,040 --> 00:36:58,399
Speaker 1: other way.

790
00:36:58,480 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 4: Yes and yeah.

791
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: So it's not necessarily, oh, you spend one hundred and

792
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:03,840
Speaker 1: fifty bucks a month on your gym membership. It's we

793
00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 1: didn't actually set boundaries and rules for who gets to

794
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 1: spend money on what, no questions asked.

795
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 3: Right, it could be a conversation about fairness that you're

796
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 3: exactly right, we can definitely afford that one hundred and

797
00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 3: fifty dollars, we can afford three hundred dollars. But I

798
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 3: feel like I'm sacrificing and it feels like you aren't,

799
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 3: And does that feel fair? You know, there's a story

800
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 3: in the book about About You mentioned this about how

801
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 3: NASA chooses its astronauts, and one of the big changes

802
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 3: is that they started paying attention to how the candidates

803
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 3: to be astronauts would do things like laugh, because what

804
00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 3: they found is that the best, the people who ended

805
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 3: up being the best astronauts, the ones who had the

806
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 3: most emotional intelligence. If I laughed really big and loudly,

807
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 3: they would laugh back at the same volume. And then

808
00:37:47,600 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 3: there were other people though, who would basically would kind

809
00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,959
Speaker 3: of politely chuckle. Like I would be like ah, they'd

810
00:37:52,960 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 3: be like hah, that's funny, because you know you're supposed

811
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 3: to respond right you know you're supposed to right back.

812
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,600
Speaker 3: But there was something about matching the other person, about

813
00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: matching their intensity, about showing them that you want to connect.

814
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 3: And laughter is about showing we want to connect. Eighty

815
00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 3: percent of the time when we laugh, it's not in

816
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,359
Speaker 3: response to something funny. It's because we want to show

817
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 3: the other person that we like them, that we want

818
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 3: to connect with them, and when they laugh back, they're

819
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,799
Speaker 3: showing us the same thing. And the reason why I

820
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: mentioned this is because think about in conversations about money,

821
00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 3: how often someone might tell a joke or might make

822
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: a little side comment and then smile and laugh a

823
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 3: little bit. That's an invitation, that's an invitation for us

824
00:38:35,560 --> 00:38:38,000
Speaker 3: to connect with each other. That's saying like, look, this

825
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 3: is a tough conversation, but we can still kind of

826
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 3: like take a little break. And if we ignore that,

827
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: if we say, oh yeah, that's funny. Let's get down

828
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 3: to the budget. Then, what we're really doing is we're

829
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:54,319
Speaker 3: preventing that opportunity for connection, and so listening for these

830
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: small emotional signals, whether they be light and happy or

831
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 3: something unexpectedly serious, or something where someone says, I'm worried

832
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:04,439
Speaker 3: about this and you don't understand why they're worried. Those

833
00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: signals help us figure out what we ought to actually

834
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 3: be discussing.

835
00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, Charles, We've got a few more questions we

836
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 2: want to get to. Specifically, I think we want to

837
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: dive into just vulnerability and what it means to really

838
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,120
Speaker 2: get to know someone as we're talking about relationships and

839
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,200
Speaker 2: conversation communicating. We'll get to all of that right after.

840
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:31,520
Speaker 1: This our We're back through the break, still talking with

841
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: Charles Duhig about super communicating, and I want to kind

842
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: of tap into what we were just talking about just

843
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,360
Speaker 1: a little bit there, Charles on laughter and you specifically

844
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 1: write about humor. I'm the kind of guy who might

845
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: overuse humor as a way to kind of you get

846
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 1: that conversation going and flowing. And I don't know, so

847
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,040
Speaker 1: how do you find the balance maybe where you use

848
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:54,359
Speaker 1: too much of it you're not being serious enough. But

849
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: it is like salt to a dish, where it's a necessity.

850
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,200
Speaker 1: And if you avoid it altogether, you can't maybe kind

851
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:03,879
Speaker 1: of come up for air with a little joke now

852
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 1: and then then I don't know. And it depends on

853
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: the conversation too. So how does humor maybe fit into

854
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: having a productive, helpful, good conversation.

855
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question, and humor is really really important.

856
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: And I'll talk a little bit about what supercommunicators do.

857
00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 3: One of the things that we know super consistent supercommunicators

858
00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: do is that they tend to they tend to offer

859
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 3: what's needed in a conversation. So if it's if we

860
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 3: hit a moment where there's a lot of tension, if

861
00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 3: we hit a moment where the conversation lags, that's when

862
00:40:34,400 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 3: they might make a small joke. And usually it's not

863
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 3: very funny joke, right, usually hit something where like they're

864
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 3: just they're just acknowledging something or they're just making some

865
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 3: wry comment. But it gives everyone else a chance to

866
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 3: take a break. But most importantly, the other thing that

867
00:40:49,040 --> 00:40:52,200
Speaker 3: they do is they pay attention to how people react

868
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,600
Speaker 3: and then they match them. So Let's say that I

869
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 3: tell a joke and you you don't respond by laughing,

870
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 3: but you get really really well. At that point, I

871
00:41:02,600 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 3: can either insist on being jovial, right or or I

872
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:08,600
Speaker 3: can say to you, or I can say to myself like,

873
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 3: oh this.

874
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:10,320
Speaker 4: These guys are serious.

875
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:12,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, this seems like we're gonna talk to some serious stuff.

876
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:15,640
Speaker 3: And I can match you, or I might invite you

877
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 3: to match me. I might see that you got really

878
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 3: really serious, and we talk about the serious stuff, and

879
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 3: then and then it seems like we've talked about it,

880
00:41:23,400 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: we've gotten it out of our system. Then I make

881
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 3: a joke. I kind of lighten the mood so that

882
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: we can get back to a more natural conversation. There

883
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,680
Speaker 3: is no one answer about when to use humor, how

884
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 3: much humor to use, or when to get serious, except

885
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 3: to say paying attention to the other person. And this

886
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:43,359
Speaker 3: is what supercommunicators do. They just pay half an inch

887
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,919
Speaker 3: more attention. They think half an inch about what they're

888
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 3: about to say before they say it. That paying attention

889
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 3: to the other person allows us to figure out what

890
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 3: kind of conversation they are looking for, whether it's emotional

891
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 3: or practical or social, and then to join them there

892
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 3: and invite and invite them to join up.

893
00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,640
Speaker 4: Is basically the response to the joke tells you everything.

894
00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 3: That's exactly right, that's exactly right, ask the joke, and

895
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 3: then instead of trying to figure out was it a

896
00:42:07,560 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 3: good joke, just pay attention to how the other person responds, because.

897
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: Oh, it's always a good joke. When I'm telling you

898
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: what's funny is that? I mean, like you say that,

899
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:17,640
Speaker 2: it's not it's typically not that great of a joke.

900
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 2: It's just I think he said, like a ry comment,

901
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: except that in the moment it's the funniest joke ever

902
00:42:22,600 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 2: because it's needed. I'm just envisioning an instance where everyone

903
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,280
Speaker 2: is super serious and there is a whole lot of tension,

904
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 2: but you know what, you need to cut it. Yeah,

905
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: and like like Joel said, come afray.

906
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 3: Well, and what's interesting is we've laughed a good amount

907
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 3: on this podcast. I don't think anyone said anything that funny.

908
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:39,839
Speaker 3: You know what.

909
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,359
Speaker 4: It makes me think very few jokes are said.

910
00:42:41,440 --> 00:42:43,880
Speaker 1: I remember seeing some stats at one point Charles about

911
00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: the like the game the pregame show before NFL games,

912
00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: and how it's those guys are laughing all the time.

913
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: If you think they're like I feel like they're laughing

914
00:42:53,680 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 1: like forty percent of the time. It's almost absurd how

915
00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 1: much they laugh during those pregame shows. But that is

916
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: really attractive to people who watch them. Watching Terry Brash,

917
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: I don't even know who's on there anymore because I

918
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: don't really watch football. But it's something about that conversation

919
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: and the laughter and the kind of mutual enjoyment of

920
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 1: each other that people are attracted to. It's not even

921
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 1: just like, oh, give me all the breakdown analytics of

922
00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,279
Speaker 1: the game that's coming up. So much is about how

923
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,760
Speaker 1: they relate to one another, and we find that enjoyable

924
00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 1: watching it as humans.

925
00:43:22,880 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 3: And it's because they match each other because when one

926
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 3: person laughs, the other people laugh as well. That you

927
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 3: know that they're connected and the same thing can happen

928
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 3: with other emotional expressions. I mean, think about it in

929
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: your conversation when you do get serious suddenly yourself, when

930
00:43:36,320 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 3: you say something that's meaningful that maybe like you're taking

931
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:41,480
Speaker 3: the conversation to another level. Think about how good it

932
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 3: feels when the other person matches you, meets you there

933
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,560
Speaker 3: when they say, oh I hear what you're saying, Like Yep.

934
00:43:47,680 --> 00:43:50,359
Speaker 3: When my dad passed away, I felt the same thing.

935
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 3: And I totally understand how this has influenced everything you've

936
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: done since then. It feels like we're heard and understood.

937
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:00,000
Speaker 3: And what's important is, again I mentioned that our brains

938
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 3: have evolved to communicate, when when we were evolving, a

939
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 3: part the way that communication was reinforced was that anytime

940
00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 3: we connected with other people, it felt wonderful. In fact,

941
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,240
Speaker 3: our brains are hardwired to feel good when we connect,

942
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 3: because that's what led us to build families and then communities,

943
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,879
Speaker 3: and then villages and eventually cities and countries. Right, these

944
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: things that helped make humans more successful, and so we

945
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 3: all have this need inside of us. It's craving to

946
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:34,799
Speaker 3: connect with other people, to feel like we're understood, to

947
00:44:34,880 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 3: let them know that we understand them. And when we

948
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,239
Speaker 3: listen to that craving, that's when we start to really communicate.

949
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes me think of one of the examples

950
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 2: you give in the book is I think the guys

951
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,480
Speaker 2: the speaker's name was Epley, perhaps, but basically we had

952
00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 2: a bunch of like high power, really rich folks that

953
00:44:52,080 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: came to this conference and he told them, Hey, you're

954
00:44:54,239 --> 00:44:56,440
Speaker 2: gonna spend ten minutes really getting to know each other,

955
00:44:56,480 --> 00:45:00,200
Speaker 2: and everybody like freaked out because basically everyone's afraid of

956
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: being vulnerable. But I'm not gonna lie. Like by the

957
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: end of that story, like I was almost tearing up

958
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 2: myself because they like, seriously, these individuals were able to

959
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 2: connect in such a short amount of time to each other.

960
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 2: It just shows you how much of a need there

961
00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 2: is for some of this deeper connection. And I mean,

962
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 2: I guess it leads me to wonder, like, do you

963
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: think that we keep conversations just to surface too much

964
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 2: of the time? Right, Like do you think that a

965
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 2: lot of folks are afraid to get real and raw

966
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:28,719
Speaker 2: and emotional and that too much weather talk, that we're

967
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: all just missing out.

968
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 3: Well, I think they're missed opportunities. Now, I will say,

969
00:45:32,400 --> 00:45:34,720
Speaker 3: not everything has to be a conversation, right, Like, sometimes

970
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 3: you're on the bus and you just want to read

971
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 3: your book, you know, you don't want to have a conversation.

972
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 3: Or my kids come up and I say, like, I

973
00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,279
Speaker 3: want to have a conversation about your rooms, and I

974
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:44,279
Speaker 3: don't really want to have a conversation about their rooms.

975
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:45,880
Speaker 3: I want to tell them they need to clean their rooms.

976
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:49,400
Speaker 3: But there are all these opportunities that we could miss

977
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:52,919
Speaker 3: where and it doesn't have to be deep, it doesn't

978
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,040
Speaker 3: have to be meaningful. It can just be a connection

979
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 3: that like feels good because we both discovered that we

980
00:45:58,719 --> 00:46:00,200
Speaker 3: went to the same high school and we you know,

981
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 3: some people in common, and then we talk about like

982
00:46:02,600 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 3: what we loved about high school and what was like

983
00:46:04,640 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 3: less great about high school. Right, just connecting with another

984
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 3: person just feels good. In fact, there's study after study

985
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,080
Speaker 3: that shows that people who connect with others, who have deep,

986
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,799
Speaker 3: meaningful relationships with it with at least two or three

987
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:21,520
Speaker 3: people at age sixty five, they are healthier than everyone else,

988
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 3: They are more successful than everyone else, and they are

989
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 3: happier than everyone else. Connections are what make our life rich.

990
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 3: And so it's not like that you have to do

991
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 3: it all the time. It shouldn't feel like a chore.

992
00:46:33,880 --> 00:46:36,319
Speaker 3: But we should be able to recognize that opportunity and

993
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 3: seize it when we're ready for it.

994
00:46:37,960 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 1: Okay, last question, Well, I'm curious about introverts. I'm one

995
00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,400
Speaker 1: hundred percent extroverts. So you're saying this, you're like preaching

996
00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:49,280
Speaker 1: to the choir. I'm curious introverts feel very differently about connection,

997
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:53,040
Speaker 1: or maybe it's just specific times where they feel like,

998
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:56,920
Speaker 1: oh I can at this point engage in this. For me,

999
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,160
Speaker 1: it's like natural. I always want to engage, even with

1000
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:02,879
Speaker 1: strangers on the bus, despite the book i'm reading. That's

1001
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: just my natural best bite the book that they're reading. Right,

1002
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,600
Speaker 1: you're still talking. Yeah, hey, Bud, what you going about?

1003
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: And I'm not picking up that cue that they want

1004
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 1: to read their book and not talk to me. But

1005
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: so talk to me about introverts and then just tell

1006
00:47:13,040 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 1: me too, Charles, like, what has the act of writing

1007
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 1: this book? What does it meant to you? And how

1008
00:47:17,719 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 1: has it changed your ability to communicate effectively? How's it

1009
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 1: impacted your life?

1010
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a really good question. So on the introverts thing,

1011
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: So I originally going into this thought that supercommunicators would

1012
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 3: all be extroverts, or they'll all be super charismatic, And

1013
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:34,200
Speaker 3: what I found is exactly the opposite. Basically, your charisma,

1014
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,800
Speaker 3: your natural extraversion or introversion, it has almost no impact

1015
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 3: whatsoever on whether you become a super communicator. Oftentimes. In fact,

1016
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,879
Speaker 3: super communicators, consistent supercommunicators are people who, at some point

1017
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 3: in their life had trouble connecting with other people. Maybe

1018
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 3: they they they never found their friend group in high school,

1019
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: or their parents got divorced and they had to be

1020
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 3: the peacemaker, and as a result, that's what helped them

1021
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,319
Speaker 3: think a little bit more about communication. And it's that

1022
00:47:57,480 --> 00:48:00,200
Speaker 3: thinking a little bit more about communication, about thinking about

1023
00:48:00,200 --> 00:48:03,320
Speaker 3: how to how to connect that makes them into a supercommunicator.

1024
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 3: So for someone who's an introvert, if you're not comfortable,

1025
00:48:06,600 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: you should definitely not do anything that feels uncomfortable. If

1026
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,439
Speaker 3: you're on a bus, you shouldn't app you. I half

1027
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 3: the time I'm on the bus, I don't I mean

1028
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 3: most of the time I'm on the bus, I don't

1029
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:16,520
Speaker 3: talk to the person next to me. I want to

1030
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:21,239
Speaker 3: read my book. But the point is that anyone can

1031
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 3: become a supercommunicator. Anyone can learn these skills, and it's

1032
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,200
Speaker 3: just it's just a set of simple skills that allow

1033
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:29,960
Speaker 3: us to recognize what kind of conversation is happening to

1034
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 3: connect with other people. Anyone can learn those skills, whether

1035
00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:36,799
Speaker 3: you're an introvert or extrovert, and then you don't have

1036
00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 3: to use them, but at least then you have them

1037
00:48:38,680 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 3: in your back pocket. For when you want to use

1038
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:43,279
Speaker 3: them and to answer your question about how this has

1039
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 3: influenced me. You know. So, my wife and I do

1040
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 3: this thing where when we start a conversation, we will

1041
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,279
Speaker 3: very often say you do you want me to do

1042
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 3: you want me to help you solve this problem? Or

1043
00:48:54,680 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 3: do you want do you just need to vent? Like

1044
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: do you want me just to listen because you want

1045
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 3: to get this off your chest? And like that is

1046
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 3: made things so much better now when I'm talking to

1047
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 3: my kids, instead of asking them about the facts of

1048
00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,719
Speaker 3: their life, these shallow questions like you know what you

1049
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 3: do in school today? Who did you have lunch with? Now,

1050
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 3: I try and ask just a slightly deeper question, like

1051
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:15,279
Speaker 3: what was the best part of today? Like I you know,

1052
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: I know that most of the time you have lunch

1053
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 3: with Jasper? What do you like about Jasper? Like what

1054
00:49:19,000 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 3: do you admire about them? And those questions they are

1055
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 3: more real my kids. When I ask them fact takes questions,

1056
00:49:25,360 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 3: they say fine, nod, yes, no. When I ask them

1057
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,239
Speaker 3: how they instead of asking them about the facts of

1058
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,839
Speaker 3: their life, when I ask them how they feel about

1059
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 3: their life, they tend to tell me this incredibly rich

1060
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 3: tapestry and I learned things about my kids I wouldn't

1061
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:39,480
Speaker 3: learn otherwise. I love that.

1062
00:49:39,680 --> 00:49:40,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, you talk about that.

1063
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: You highlight that in the book by saying to ask

1064
00:49:43,080 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: those open ended questions because they do lead to so much.

1065
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: More in life.

1066
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 2: But yeah, Charles, thank you so much for spending some

1067
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:51,520
Speaker 2: time with us to talk with us about your new book.

1068
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 2: Where is it the folks can learn more about you,

1069
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:55,760
Speaker 2: what you're up to, and where they can purchase the book.

1070
00:49:56,120 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 3: Yeah. So the books available on February twentieth wherever you

1071
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,879
Speaker 3: buy books, and in fact, you can pre order which

1072
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:05,799
Speaker 3: I would enormously appreciate right on Amazon and Bartons and

1073
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 3: Noble your local bookstore. And then if they want to

1074
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 3: find me, if you just google me Charles Dohig or

1075
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,640
Speaker 3: the Power of Habit or super Communicators, my website will

1076
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,280
Speaker 3: come up and and I'll mention that my email address,

1077
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 3: which is Charles at Charles Dohig dot com is on

1078
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: my website and I read and respond to every single

1079
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,040
Speaker 3: email I get. I feel like I feel like connecting

1080
00:50:26,040 --> 00:50:28,279
Speaker 3: with other people and communicating with them. If somebody takes

1081
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:30,919
Speaker 3: the time to write me, I owe it to them

1082
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 3: to write back. And so if you if you have

1083
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: thoughts on communication, I would love to hear them, and

1084
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,879
Speaker 3: I promise you I'll be back in touch.

1085
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:41,279
Speaker 1: That's impressive because we do the same. But I think

1086
00:50:41,280 --> 00:50:42,560
Speaker 1: you're getting more email.

1087
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: I think we've had like twenty eight thousand emails. Oh

1088
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 3: it's a lot of emails, but I mean again, like

1089
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 3: we've done twenty eight So it's a joy in life

1090
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,120
Speaker 3: to be able to connect with people most nice.

1091
00:50:54,160 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: Well, Charles, thank you again so much for talking with

1092
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 2: us today.

1093
00:50:57,040 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.

1094
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 1: All right, man, that was a what a great conversation

1095
00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 1: with Charles two hig. I mean nice to have a

1096
00:51:03,120 --> 00:51:06,800
Speaker 1: return guest, but writing something almost in the completely opposite

1097
00:51:07,000 --> 00:51:09,879
Speaker 1: vein of kind of what he's normally too. Instead of productivity,

1098
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: it's less about productivity. It's about having productive conversations. And

1099
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 1: so yeah, the book's so good.

1100
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 2: That's what's so interesting about relationships is that they aren't efficient,

1101
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:23,440
Speaker 2: you know, like it takes time and it's not something

1102
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,960
Speaker 2: that we can put on two x because that's that

1103
00:51:26,040 --> 00:51:28,720
Speaker 2: is not how relationships work, especially some of these bigger

1104
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,919
Speaker 2: conversations that we might have with our loved ones.

1105
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,799
Speaker 1: Sometimes that efficient efficiency optimization mindset comes back to bite

1106
00:51:34,880 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: us when absolutely when it comes to conversations and having

1107
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:38,719
Speaker 1: really good ones. All right, So what was your big

1108
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: takeaway from this combo?

1109
00:51:39,960 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 2: So he talked about a lot, and I think my

1110
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:44,960
Speaker 2: big takeaway though, is going to be just paying attention

1111
00:51:45,360 --> 00:51:47,399
Speaker 2: a little more than you might otherwise. What have when

1112
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:49,640
Speaker 2: it comes to the other person that you're that you're

1113
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: speaking with, It's just about thinking a little bit more

1114
00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:55,200
Speaker 2: about what it is that they're thinking about. It's not

1115
00:51:55,280 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: just it's like it's less of a knee jerk reaction

1116
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,480
Speaker 2: and it's more about what is needed right now in

1117
00:52:00,520 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 2: this conversation in order to facilitate the conversation in order

1118
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,120
Speaker 2: for us to achieve our end goal. And it makes

1119
00:52:07,120 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 2: it sound super formal, right, and obviously there are times

1120
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,000
Speaker 2: when we're just hanging out with the buddy.

1121
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 4: He chuckled, just as loudly as you're there.

1122
00:52:14,800 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 3: I know.

1123
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 2: What's funny is that the whole time during the conversation

1124
00:52:16,920 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: I was a little self conscious of the laughter.

1125
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,960
Speaker 4: After we started talking about the laughter part of it.

1126
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 2: But it doesn't have to be overly complicated. It's just

1127
00:52:25,200 --> 00:52:28,320
Speaker 2: about paying a little more attention to the other person, which.

1128
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 4: Is I mean, that's what it's about.

1129
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,479
Speaker 2: That's what being selfless and caring and thoughtful is about.

1130
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 2: It's just about paying attention to the to the other.

1131
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:37,919
Speaker 2: That doesn't mean not having an opinion, but it means hey,

1132
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 2: maybe it means not being a freaking bulldog and bulldozing

1133
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:44,719
Speaker 2: somebody when it comes to either their opinion or what

1134
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,360
Speaker 2: their goals are, or maybe their idea for maybe a

1135
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:51,600
Speaker 2: strategy to achieve whatever goals that you might have shared

1136
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:52,120
Speaker 2: in common.

1137
00:52:52,200 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 4: But uh, yeah, I don't know.

1138
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 2: I like that as just like a simple practical takeaway

1139
00:52:55,520 --> 00:52:55,920
Speaker 2: for everyone.

1140
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:58,280
Speaker 1: I've been guilty of being the guy who's just waiting

1141
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: to get his turn to speak and not paying attention

1142
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:04,919
Speaker 1: enough to bounce off whatever the person just said. So yeah,

1143
00:53:04,960 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: I feel like I've grown in that. But that's something

1144
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,160
Speaker 1: I could say to growing more. Yeah, so yeah, thanks

1145
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: for bringing that.

1146
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:11,560
Speaker 2: That wasn't your takeaway, it was your big one.

1147
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 1: I think the biggest one. Actually, it's kind of similar.

1148
00:53:13,520 --> 00:53:16,040
Speaker 1: He says, like Charles said, we're going for connection, and

1149
00:53:16,080 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: it takes wanting to connect, and I think oftentimes we're

1150
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: trying to get the conversation going somewhere to where it

1151
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 1: lands in our favor, or we're getting the desired outcome,

1152
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:28,359
Speaker 1: but oftentimes, like yeah, you even mentioned this, like we're

1153
00:53:28,400 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 1: missing out on potentially better outcomes than we could have predicted,

1154
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: trying to push things, force things in the direction of

1155
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,879
Speaker 1: our choosing instead of like desiring that connection with somebody else.

1156
00:53:38,000 --> 00:53:40,120
Speaker 1: And I think when we're having those money combos, man,

1157
00:53:40,160 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: there might be some like some goal line underneath the

1158
00:53:42,960 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 1: conversation we're trying to force to happen. And so maybe

1159
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 1: before like a little more interested in what our significant

1160
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: other or what a friend is trying to tell us,

1161
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 1: then we might unearth some cool combos that we otherwise

1162
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:56,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have.

1163
00:53:56,480 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 4: Absolutely did I could not agree more.

1164
00:53:58,440 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 3: I love that.

1165
00:53:58,960 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 2: But all right, let's interde our beer. So you and

1166
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 2: I during this episode we enjoyed another half beer. This

1167
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,319
Speaker 2: is a triple mosaic daydream. What were your thoughts? I'll

1168
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:11,000
Speaker 2: say the daydream is the perfect They've got the perfect artwork.

1169
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:15,040
Speaker 4: On this can is just like pink clouds. Yeah, yeah,

1170
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 4: do you enjoy it? I loved it?

1171
00:54:16,960 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just wrote down glorious ipa perfection. I don't

1172
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: know there's much more to say about this. I was

1173
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:24,680
Speaker 1: telling a friend the other day just how good other

1174
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:27,040
Speaker 1: half is, and like he was like, oh, I've had

1175
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 1: this other brewery. They make great IPAs, and I was like,

1176
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:32,480
Speaker 1: yeah they do. Other Half is just next level and

1177
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:33,359
Speaker 1: this one's next level.

1178
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was.

1179
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:36,799
Speaker 2: With it being a triple, it certainly was a little

1180
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 2: bit higher on the sweetness scale, but it was also

1181
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,239
Speaker 2: balanced with the aromatics that you get from the hop,

1182
00:54:43,280 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 2: the herbal nature, the sharpness that you get from some

1183
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 2: of those new England IPA brewed hops. But yeah, I'm

1184
00:54:50,640 --> 00:54:52,359
Speaker 2: glad you and I were able to enjoy this one.

1185
00:54:52,400 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 1: These are ones I brought back from the Other Half

1186
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: at Rock a Fellow's Center. So I've been sitting on

1187
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:59,480
Speaker 1: our fridge for a few months and it still takes.

1188
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: Still maybe surprisingly so good. I'm glad you and I

1189
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:04,360
Speaker 2: got to enjoy. But that's gonna be it for this episode.

1190
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,439
Speaker 2: Head to the show notes up at how tomoney dot

1191
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:08,920
Speaker 2: com and we'll make sure to link to all the

1192
00:55:08,920 --> 00:55:11,399
Speaker 2: different places where you can learn more about Charles.

1193
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 4: Well an email he wants to hear from me, he does,

1194
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:14,400
Speaker 4: we'll say one too.

1195
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 2: We'll link to his old book as well, The Power

1196
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 2: of Habit, which is a little more productivity success kind

1197
00:55:20,160 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 2: of driven personality type a number one enneagram type of person. Yep,

1198
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: this is like the opposite kind of but we'll link

1199
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 2: to that old one as well because it is also

1200
00:55:29,880 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 2: really good.

1201
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 4: We need a bit of both in our lives to

1202
00:55:31,600 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 4: get that bound.

1203
00:55:32,120 --> 00:55:33,840
Speaker 2: We do, we really do to kind of be the full,

1204
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:37,320
Speaker 2: well rounded, well balanced individual the best we can be, right.

1205
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:39,000
Speaker 4: Rachel, I think you just have to join the army

1206
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:39,560
Speaker 4: for that match.

1207
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 1: Army of one that their slogan. Yeah, but it was

1208
00:55:42,200 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: all used to be all you can be in the army,

1209
00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:44,120
Speaker 1: remember that?

1210
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:46,399
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, And now they're all about it's all about

1211
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: the individual.

1212
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:48,239
Speaker 4: I could even sing it, but I won't.

1213
00:55:48,680 --> 00:55:50,799
Speaker 2: That's gonna be it until next time. Best friends out,

1214
00:55:50,960 --> 00:56:08,680
Speaker 2: best friends out, be all that you can be in

1215
00:56:08,719 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: the Army.