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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You From how Supports

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Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Caroline

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Speaker 1: and I'm Kristin. And today on the podcast we have

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Speaker 1: a really special guest. Kristen and I are talking to egyptologist,

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Speaker 1: professor and pretty much all around amazing person, Kara Cooney.

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Speaker 1: Cooney is the author of The Woman Who Would Be

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Speaker 1: King hat cheps that's Rise to Power, all about this

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Speaker 1: amazing figure in history, hat cheps A, who was the

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Speaker 1: sixth pharaoh of the Eighteenth Dynasty. And you know, honestly,

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Speaker 1: we don't know a lot about her inner life, her

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Speaker 1: personal life, but we do know quite a bit now

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Speaker 1: about how she ruled, and she definitely was an interesting

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Speaker 1: and different figure for history, unique if only in the

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Speaker 1: fact that she was a female pharaoh or a woman king,

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Speaker 1: which seems like an oxymoron almost um. And what we're

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Speaker 1: gonna talk to Cooney about is just how she was

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Speaker 1: such a powerful and effective ruler who really maintained her

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Speaker 1: empire's position in the world. And we're going to find

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Speaker 1: out more about how she came to that power and

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Speaker 1: also how her gender played such a strong role, not

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Speaker 1: only in the path that she had to take to

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Speaker 1: grasp that power, but also in her legacy being diminished

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Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. And the reason that we

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Speaker 1: don't know more about sort of the inner workings of

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Speaker 1: how she came to power beyond the actual steps that

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Speaker 1: you have to take to become king, has to do

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Speaker 1: a lot with the fact that those darn Egyptians did

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Speaker 1: not record anything other than their super official histories and

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Speaker 1: facts about their rulers. They were writing down who was

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Speaker 1: sleeping with whom or how hat cheps that clawed her

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Speaker 1: way to power. And so there's been a lot of

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Speaker 1: conjecture over the is about how this woman came to

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Speaker 1: be a leader. Um, But so one important person that

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Speaker 1: we can turn to to answer some of those questions

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Speaker 1: is Kara Cooney. And so, without further ado, let's let

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Speaker 1: the interview role. First of all, Dr Cooney, could you

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Speaker 1: introduce yourself to our listeners and tell us a little

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Speaker 1: bit about why you wanted to write a book on

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Speaker 1: hot cheps. It sure thing. My name's Kara Cooney, and

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Speaker 1: I teach at U c l A. I am a

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Speaker 1: professor at U c l A. And I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to write a book on hot cheps. And I was

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Speaker 1: actually approached by my lead age and who said you

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Speaker 1: should write a book about hot chefs it. And I

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Speaker 1: just thought, why does this woman keep haunting me? What

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Speaker 1: is going on? Why did I done this TV show

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Speaker 1: for Discovery about hot chefs that a couple of years before,

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Speaker 1: which I assumed he had seen. Otherwise he wouldn't have

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Speaker 1: asked me to to then write the book. And academics

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Speaker 1: like to stay in their own little niches, their own

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Speaker 1: little little boxes. And he said, I said, I can't

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Speaker 1: write a book about hot cheps it, And he's like,

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Speaker 1: why not? And I said, because I do the nineteenth

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Speaker 1: and twentieth dynasty and hot chefs it is the age

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Speaker 1: sheet and so but more I thought about how silly

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Speaker 1: that was, and how we we stick too much to

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Speaker 1: our our expected work and our expected research. And the

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Speaker 1: more I thought about female power and how interesting um

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Speaker 1: it is that this woman was able to surmount so

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Speaker 1: many obstacles and able to climb to the very highest

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Speaker 1: pinnacle of political authority. I thought, Okay, yeah, I'd like

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Speaker 1: to write this book, and I'd like to do it

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Speaker 1: differently than than anyone else has done it before. Well,

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Speaker 1: could you talk a little bit about the Egyptian attitude

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Speaker 1: toward women rulers in general, and how powerful women could become,

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Speaker 1: and also sort of the available avenues to power for

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Speaker 1: women at the time. Ancient Egypt is an unusual place.

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Speaker 1: It's it's unique in the world in many ways. Um

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a giant oasis, if you like, and

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Speaker 1: it's protected on all four sides geographically Mediterranean Sea to

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Speaker 1: the north, deserts on the other three sides, cataracts down

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Speaker 1: to the south. I mean, it's just it's a place

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Speaker 1: that can develop in a microcosm the zone for thousands

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Speaker 1: of years, and it encourages a culture that enjoys status

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Speaker 1: quo and continuity and doesn't like to have a lot

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Speaker 1: of upheaval and coups. And in Asians, they don't have

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Speaker 1: to deal with a lot of that because who have

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Speaker 1: a culture that enjoys continuity. They created a political system

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Speaker 1: that divinized kingship beyond anything that that had ever been

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Speaker 1: seen and arguably anywhere in the world. It's it's a

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Speaker 1: more divinized kingship than than perhaps any other system anywhere

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Speaker 1: in the world. And when you have a culture that

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Speaker 1: is very interested in king following king following king in

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Speaker 1: the same family at nauseam forever divinized. If there's a

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Speaker 1: problem with the succession, if the king is too young,

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Speaker 1: if there is an issue, then because you have a

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Speaker 1: culture that's risk averse and interested in continuity, they'll allow

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Speaker 1: a woman to come to the throne, to serve as

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Speaker 1: regent for a young king, or in some cases to

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Speaker 1: even as acts as king in her own right. And

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Speaker 1: more women were allowed to rule, come to the center

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Speaker 1: of the wheel, if you like, in Egypt than than

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Speaker 1: in any other place, any other place in the world.

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Speaker 1: And so you can talk about women like hot Cheps.

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Speaker 1: So you can also talk about tawas Ratnutokras to some extent.

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Speaker 1: You can talk about a woman named so the Cotep,

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Speaker 1: you can talk about Cleopatra ne for TV. There are

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Speaker 1: many female names known from Egypt, and that is an anomaly,

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Speaker 1: that is that is unusual and different from the rest

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Speaker 1: of the world. We would love to hear some more details,

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Speaker 1: especially about the avenues through which these women could attain power.

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Speaker 1: I know, for instance, in hot Cheps, it's case that

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Speaker 1: there was a lot to do with religious avenues and

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Speaker 1: being queen regent. So yeah, could you talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit more about those avenues. Well, it's it's an interesting

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Speaker 1: thing that the avenues to power are generally connected to

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Speaker 1: the king. So a woman acts in support of the

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Speaker 1: king first and then can catapult herself into power in

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Speaker 1: her own right and hot chefs. It's case. She was

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Speaker 1: agent for a very very young king. And when I

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Speaker 1: say young, I mean one and a half years old,

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Speaker 1: two years old. You know, when they crowned him, he

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Speaker 1: was probably chewing on his crook and flail and a

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Speaker 1: crown wouldn't fit, and they probably couldn't keep him on

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Speaker 1: the throne for longer than a minute. And he wasn't

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Speaker 1: paying attention to anything. He probably couldn't really speak any

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Speaker 1: of the incantations he was supposed to. It was probably

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Speaker 1: a pretty messy affair. She's the one in control, and

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Speaker 1: she was then, at the age of sixteen, perhaps in

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Speaker 1: control of Egypt until he came of age, which would

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Speaker 1: have taken other fourteen fifteen, sixteen years extraordinary thing within

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Speaker 1: that amount of time. She then used her ideological power

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Speaker 1: as Egypt's highest priestess, the god's wife Bomban, to then

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Speaker 1: catapult herself into the kingship itself. Now, other women had

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Speaker 1: had different methods but no one ruled Egypt for as

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Speaker 1: long as hot with with as much power systematized Um

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Speaker 1: centralized power as hot Cheps. But other women like Um,

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Speaker 1: like Nutacras or so Beck no Fruit, they came to

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Speaker 1: power at the end of a dynasty when their father,

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Speaker 1: the king, was unable to sire her son for whatever reason,

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Speaker 1: and there was only a daughter left. Then they would

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Speaker 1: allow Um a woman to be king and comes to

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Speaker 1: the throne that way. Another woman there for TV. She

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Speaker 1: came to the throne after the death of her husband Akanat,

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Speaker 1: and perhaps there's a lot of arguments surrounding her kingship,

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Speaker 1: but she came to the throne at the time to

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Speaker 1: had an extreme ideological crisis, and she's holding on to

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Speaker 1: the remnants of this tattered religious experiment. And another woman

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Speaker 1: like Kawasa in the nineteen Dynasty, she's very much like

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Speaker 1: like Um Sobec no Fru and the Talker's rulling at

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Speaker 1: the end of a dynasty, trying to hold together the

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Speaker 1: last remnants of her family line. And then there's Cleopatra, who,

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Speaker 1: very much like hot Chepsoot knows that to rule for

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Speaker 1: an extended period of time, she has to rule with

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Speaker 1: a male by her side, a masculine entity had Chepsoot

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Speaker 1: always ruled with her nephew by her side. He was

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Speaker 1: growing up as as she went, along as she took

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Speaker 1: on the kingship Cleopatra first with her father, then with

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Speaker 1: a brother, one brother after another succession, and each of

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Speaker 1: whom she may have had a hand in murdering. And

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Speaker 1: then she ruled arguably alongside to Roman warlord. She made

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Speaker 1: sure she always had masculine support while she was inhabiting

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Speaker 1: her own kingship. So there is no such thing in

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Speaker 1: the ancient world. This is frustrating to me. It's probably

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Speaker 1: frustrating to you. There's no such thing in the ancient

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Speaker 1: world as a pure, unsulliated feminine kingship. It doesn't exist.

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Speaker 1: Every female king or every female political leader in Egypt,

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Speaker 1: the woman calls herself a king, not a queen, because

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Speaker 1: there's no political connotations that work. Every female king in

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Speaker 1: ancient Egypt had a male counterpart or some sort of

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Speaker 1: masculine entity by her side, and the same holds true

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Speaker 1: for the rest of the ancient world. If you look

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Speaker 1: at Northwest Asia, or you look at the Mediterranean region,

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Speaker 1: or you look at China, you look at the women

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Speaker 1: who are able to achieve that that highest pinnacle of power.

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Speaker 1: Every single one of them that ruled for an extended

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Speaker 1: creative time had some sort of male counterparts as support well.

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Speaker 1: One of the fascinating things that jumped out to me

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Speaker 1: about hat cheps suit being sort of accidentally groomed to

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Speaker 1: rule is how she not only aligned herself with male

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Speaker 1: human male counterparts, but also male counterparts in a religious

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Speaker 1: sense as well, in a divine sense. Could you talk

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Speaker 1: about how she also helps solidify her rule through aligning

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Speaker 1: herself with the gods, making herself divine in that way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Cheps grew up in the temple. She was God's wise

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Speaker 1: of Omninie Egypt, most important high priestess during the reign

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Speaker 1: of her father, probably as young. Training probably began for

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Speaker 1: her as young as eight or nine years old, maybe

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Speaker 1: even younger, which means that that temple space, those cool

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Speaker 1: stone walls, the incense smell, the chanting of the priests,

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Speaker 1: the sun slanting in through the clorestory windows, all of that,

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Speaker 1: it was just into It was just in her bones.

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Speaker 1: It was something that she knew. She also of sawt

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Speaker 1: her father to Mos of the first come to power,

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Speaker 1: not being born for the kingship himself, because the king

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Speaker 1: before him, um in Hotel the First had died without

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Speaker 1: a son, without an heir, and they had named at

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Speaker 1: Mos of the First, a living breathing man not directly

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Speaker 1: related to the king, to be the next king. And

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Speaker 1: hot Cheps saw her father because she's standing next to

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Speaker 1: him as his high priestess right, she sees her father

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Speaker 1: using religion, using the Oracle of alman Rae, using all

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Speaker 1: of these tools at his disposal to create a firm

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Speaker 1: foundation for his kingship to say to his people, yes,

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Speaker 1: I know that we have a dynastic succession problem, but

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Speaker 1: that God has chosen me, and let me prove it

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Speaker 1: to you and show you how hot Cheps that actually

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Speaker 1: reveals more to us, pulls the veil away from the

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Speaker 1: religious goings on more than any other king before. So

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Speaker 1: she tells us about the Oracle of alman Rae and

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Speaker 1: how it actually marked her for power. The oracle was

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Speaker 1: this way of taking the God's most sacred precious vessel,

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Speaker 1: the golden Statue of the God, out of its shrine.

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Speaker 1: It was placed into a portable shrine, placed onto a

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Speaker 1: boat shaped thing that was held a loss by priests

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Speaker 1: holding two long carrying sticks, and like twenty priests would

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Speaker 1: carry this bark out as a temple with the God's

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Speaker 1: statue carefully and inside, and people would be allowed to

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Speaker 1: approach the bark asking questions asked the oracle as it's

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Speaker 1: leaving the temple, things about what was going to happen

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Speaker 1: in Egypt's political future, what kinds of problems they had

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Speaker 1: to worry about on one festival day, the oracle was

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Speaker 1: brought out in a time period of great crisis. People

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Speaker 1: were worried about the succession, who was going to be

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Speaker 1: king next, They were worried about um too, most of

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Speaker 1: the second being sickly. Perhaps we don't know the details

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Speaker 1: of what was happening, but we know there was worry

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Speaker 1: about who was going to be king next and who

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Speaker 1: was going to take power. And the oracle was brought

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Speaker 1: out and hot sheeps it, writes the story about it,

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Speaker 1: and records it in her red chapel, and she tells

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Speaker 1: us that the priest holding the oracle aloft were rudderless, leaderless.

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Speaker 1: They didn't know where to move, they didn't know where

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Speaker 1: to go. Because you have to think these twenty priests,

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Speaker 1: they use some we don't know if they were drunk

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Speaker 1: or high or sleep deprived of what was going on,

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Speaker 1: but they use the their their own um power from

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Speaker 1: the gods to know where to go. This is this

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Speaker 1: is the way we have to understand it. And they stop,

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Speaker 1: and everyone in the outer um parts of the temple

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Speaker 1: or in the temple courtyard the stunned and afraid because

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Speaker 1: the oracle wasn't moving, and the oracle seems to not

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Speaker 1: have a direction. And then all of a sudden, hot

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Speaker 1: scheps It's text tells us the oracle gets up and

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Speaker 1: is on the move, and it goes right, and then

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Speaker 1: it goes less, and it goes here than it goes there,

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, it points itself directly

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Speaker 1: at hot Chepsa as a girl, as a priestess, is

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Speaker 1: the god's wife of Almond in the temple, and the

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Speaker 1: oracle directs itself to her. She throws herself to the

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Speaker 1: ound in front of it, raises her arms up in

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Speaker 1: front of it, and says something akin to oh, my father, Aman, ray,

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Speaker 1: what would you have me do? And the oracle then

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Speaker 1: proceeds somehow to communicate her. And we don't know how

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Speaker 1: this happens, but it proceeds to communicate to her that

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Speaker 1: Egypt needs her, that ahman Ray, the god needs her,

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Speaker 1: that she is required to move Egypt through this crisis

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Speaker 1: of succession, through this crisis vacuum of power and accept

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Speaker 1: it was always so canny to use a religion that

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Speaker 1: everyone believed in so fervently to mark herself for powers.

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Speaker 1: Never claims this power as her own personal right. She's

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Speaker 1: never outwardly ambitious for it. In um in a bald way.

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Speaker 1: She always cloaks each of every power graph, every move

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Speaker 1: she makes up that ladder towards power, towards the kingship

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Speaker 1: itself with religious ideology, always saying I'm not doing it

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Speaker 1: for myself. I'm only doing this because the god Aman

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Speaker 1: Ray needs need to do it. Pretty clever. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: an amazing story, it really is. And this was generally

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Speaker 1: accepted by the people, right They said, okay, well, if

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Speaker 1: this is the will of the gods, then this is

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Speaker 1: how it's going to be. Or what was there any

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Speaker 1: sort of horror or surprise that this happened. You would

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Speaker 1: think there would be some sort of surprise at marking

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Speaker 1: a female, especially a female so young, for so much power,

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Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem that there was any kind of pushback.

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Speaker 1: There was shocked. She tells us in an in an

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Speaker 1: later oracle, there's a later oracle that mark you as king,

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Speaker 1: and then she appeared as king before her people, and

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Speaker 1: she says that there's stunned. They're weeping before me. They

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Speaker 1: can't believe it. But she puts it in the sense

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Speaker 1: of it's a miracle. But what we never see and

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Speaker 1: what what I don't think we should expect to see

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Speaker 1: from the ancient world, is any sort of cynical disbelief

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Speaker 1: in this oracle. And think of politics and religion today.

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Speaker 1: So many people used religious ideology to support their political

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Speaker 1: moves to the right or the left or whatever. This

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Speaker 1: shouldn't be something that surprises us. The ideology that works

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Speaker 1: best to get people politically on board as the ideology

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Speaker 1: that people believe in most so, and so it doesn't

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Speaker 1: mean that that you can't manipulate and use religion at

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Speaker 1: the same time that you fervently believe in it. There

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to be any understanding that the oracle was

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Speaker 1: somehow cynically manipulated. Nobody seems to talk about it in

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Speaker 1: that way. But I'm sure that hut Ships that her

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Speaker 1: priests knew that she was the one that was going

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Speaker 1: to be watched for power. I don't think this came

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Speaker 1: as a surprise to anyone. I think that it had

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Speaker 1: been planned out carefully and politically in advance beforehand, and

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Speaker 1: then the ideology was used to pay that path. At

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Speaker 1: the same time, I think they understood it as a

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Speaker 1: god's choice as well. It's it's a big difference between

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Speaker 1: us and them, between the modern world the ancient world

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Speaker 1: that fervent belief in the gods being all around you,

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Speaker 1: pulling the strings, ruling everything. But that was that certainly

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Speaker 1: seems to be the way the ancient people approached their

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Speaker 1: their world. Well, it seems hut Up put a lot

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Speaker 1: of thought into the way that she was depicted uh

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Speaker 1: in in temples and across Egypt and remembered. So in

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Speaker 1: what ways did she position herself as masculine and as

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Speaker 1: king rather than just being feminine and queen? And why

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Speaker 1: did she do this? Yeah, Chessford's story is not only

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Speaker 1: amazing and that she's the only female king who rules

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Speaker 1: for such an extensive period of time, successfully leading Egypt

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Speaker 1: better than she found it, but she's also not a

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Speaker 1: rule breaker. She's a traditionalist. She doesn't expect a patriarchal

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Speaker 1: society to fit to her feminine self. She knows she's

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Speaker 1: an anomaly. She knows she's strange, and so as her Coking.

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Speaker 1: And we can never forget that she had a Coking

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Speaker 1: by her side throughout her entire rule as regent and

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Speaker 1: then as king. As he's getting older, she has to

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Speaker 1: match him. She takes precedence of place before him. She

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Speaker 1: has the primary spot and festivals, presumably in the throne

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Speaker 1: room with the higher eyes. She's there, always in the

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Speaker 1: primary position. But this kid is getting older. When she's crowned,

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Speaker 1: he's nine years old. It's easy to have precedence of

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Speaker 1: place over a nine year old, but a fourteen year

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Speaker 1: old that's much more difficult. How do you how do

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Speaker 1: you take precedence of place when you're an older woman

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Speaker 1: next to a young and vibrant man. How do you

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Speaker 1: do that? And Hot checks a messages that there's worries

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Speaker 1: about she tries new things, and we can see that

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Speaker 1: transition in her stack erin and her release, and she

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Speaker 1: starts out, there's a there's a statue in the met

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Speaker 1: that shows her as feminine. But masculine simultaneously. It's an

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Speaker 1: extraordinary piece made of an injurated kind of marble like limestone,

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Speaker 1: and she has this beautiful, delicate, heart shaped face, very feminine,

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Speaker 1: very grassile body with narrow shoulders and slender limbs. It's

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Speaker 1: the body of a woman, and yet she's shown topless.

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Speaker 1: She's shown wearing not a shirt but a naked their

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Speaker 1: chest of a man, but it's clearly a woman's upper body,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, they even show her with breasts but

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Speaker 1: no nipples, as you would expect if you were showing

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Speaker 1: a naked female upper body. So she's there is masculine

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Speaker 1: and feminine simultaneously, and she's obviously not satisfied with with

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Speaker 1: this visage, with this image of herself, because she then

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Speaker 1: moves on to a fully masculinized imagery where her body

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Speaker 1: no longer has that grass stile form, where she shows

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Speaker 1: herself with with a buff body, pectoral muscles and biceps

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Speaker 1: and all of that which she obviously didn't have in

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Speaker 1: real life. That she feels she needs to show this

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Speaker 1: in her reliase and in her statutory to match the

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Speaker 1: king that's growing up next to her. So she's she's

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Speaker 1: got to experiment. She knows that she has to change

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Speaker 1: her body and the way she depicts herself to match

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Speaker 1: this coking and to sit patriarchal kingship models in in

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Speaker 1: their purest form, because the Egyptians believe that that monarch

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Speaker 1: needed to be masculine, that that masculine rebirth was was

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Speaker 1: a necessary part of the king's power. So she, it's

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Speaker 1: some way religiously magically, needs to inhabit that masculine self,

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Speaker 1: even with her feminine her feminine body. And now back

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Speaker 1: to the show, so hatchets that was an exceptional rule.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned that she left Egypt better than

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Speaker 1: she started with it, and she amasked all these incredible accomplishments.

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Speaker 1: But it seems like all we learned about as students

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Speaker 1: in the classroom are King tut and we know who

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Speaker 1: Cleopatra is, and yet not her. Why is that? Why?

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Speaker 1: Why has her history sort of sort of been erased

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Speaker 1: in a way from our popular understanding of Egyptian history.

359
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,479
Speaker 1: I've had to think about this a lot. This is

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Speaker 1: this is really the crux of her story for me,

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Speaker 1: because as I'm trying to resurrect her, trying to get

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Speaker 1: people to pronounce her name, correctly, and people like we

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Speaker 1: hat chew, what how does it work? It's extraordinary to

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Speaker 1: me that this woman who did it all, who was

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Speaker 1: the most and I'd like to use this word badass

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Speaker 1: woman of the ancient world, who ruled for the longest,

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Speaker 1: ruled the most successfully, is the one that we've forgotten.

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Speaker 1: And and here here's where we're going to go with this.

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Speaker 1: So let's say we go out to a bus stop

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Speaker 1: and we and we just talked to the every man

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Speaker 1: or every woman and say, hey, have you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of somebody named Jezebel? And here you will say, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've heard of Jezebel. Good or bad, very bad, very bad.

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Speaker 1: And you may not know the whole story that that.

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Speaker 1: You know, she was a Phoenician princess married off to

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Speaker 1: a king in the levant and was um upset a

377
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:35,720
Speaker 1: bunch of yaway priests for worshiping many gods and was

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Speaker 1: thrown out of a window and eating my dogs. You

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Speaker 1: may not know all of that, um, but you know

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00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: she's bad. She did something wrong. You may say, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: how about Cleopatra. Person at the bus stops? You know Cleopatra? Indeed,

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00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,560
Speaker 1: I do good story or bad story is very bad,

383
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,359
Speaker 1: interested in glamour interested parties, and ended up killing yourselves.

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Speaker 1: And these things are known in popular culture by normal people,

385
00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,560
Speaker 1: but had chepstood. People have no idea who this woman is.

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Speaker 1: They can't even pronounce her name, They have no understanding

387
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Speaker 1: of what she did. And I think human culture in

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Speaker 1: general loves to tell stories, replicate stories, retell stories about

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Speaker 1: female failure, about women who did it all wrong, as

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00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 1: cautionary tales, as ways to know what happens when when

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Speaker 1: crisis and female leaders to coincide the crisis. That that

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00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,520
Speaker 1: when females rule, they bring on crisis. I'm here to

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Speaker 1: tell you the historian that females generally are only allowed

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Speaker 1: into leadership when there's crisis. That's the way they get

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Speaker 1: into power in the first place. So Chips that, as

396
00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:36,600
Speaker 1: as I always say, left easier better than she found it,

397
00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:41,439
Speaker 1: did everything right, and that was her ultimate undoing. And

398
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:45,160
Speaker 1: that's the irony of the whole thing. She she created

399
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Speaker 1: a perfect package for the king's after her to take

400
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:52,560
Speaker 1: credit for what she herself had done. She did it

401
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 1: all so traditionally, even depicting herself as a masculine entity,

402
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:57,919
Speaker 1: that in many cases all they had to do was

403
00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:00,479
Speaker 1: erase her name and put in a different name and

404
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,880
Speaker 1: take credit for all of her vast achievements and buildings

405
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:07,800
Speaker 1: and and just all that she did. She did it

406
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: too perfectly in a way. It was that much more abstracted,

407
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,880
Speaker 1: that much more um uh normal, so that a male

408
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,240
Speaker 1: king could just say, yeah, I did this, erase her

409
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 1: name very shortly after her reign was over, put all

410
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:24,200
Speaker 1: of the other names in their place in her place,

411
00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,360
Speaker 1: and un thus we've forgotten her. So the women who

412
00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,280
Speaker 1: were the most successful are those that we don't tell

413
00:22:30,280 --> 00:22:33,159
Speaker 1: stories about, and the women that were the biggest failures

414
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:38,280
Speaker 1: Shakespeare writes plays about them. M it's a really interesting

415
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 1: that's a really interesting division to draw and troubling one

416
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,440
Speaker 1: at the same time, though, Yeah, indeed, you know it's

417
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:48,800
Speaker 1: it's funny. I was. I did my first, one of

418
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Speaker 1: my very first discussions about hot chefs to a group

419
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 1: of female CEOs and power brokers in Los Angeles. Small group.

420
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Speaker 1: It was. It was a lunchtime lecture and I'm just

421
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,120
Speaker 1: informally talking through this And it was in that room,

422
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 1: in that moment, with all of these female power brokers,

423
00:23:03,880 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 1: that I understood that success was something that indeed could

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00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 1: threaten a woman with a l awesome I guess thee

425
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:14,479
Speaker 1: with somebody else trying to take the credit for it.

426
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Speaker 1: That that happens more often than than we would expect

427
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Speaker 1: or like to think of in a patriarchal society. And

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00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:22,920
Speaker 1: that right there, I think is the crux of potchups

429
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,680
Speaker 1: with the story. Um well, that leads to another question though,

430
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:31,560
Speaker 1: between kind of the parallels between Chips set the women

431
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: around her and women in powerful positions today, because as

432
00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: you're telling this story, it's ringing similar bells in my

433
00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 1: mind of things that we have similar patterns of women

434
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:46,400
Speaker 1: in power, whether that's political power or even power in career.

435
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 1: In career context as well. Yeah, I teach a class

436
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: that you see like called women in Power in the

437
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,680
Speaker 1: Ancient World. In the first two weeks we go through

438
00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:57,359
Speaker 1: a discussion of how much power women have today. I

439
00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,560
Speaker 1: always try to keep ancient history as topical and useful

440
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 1: and applicable to the modern world as possible. Because humans

441
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,920
Speaker 1: are humans, we have the same general systems, uh, same

442
00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,200
Speaker 1: patriarchal system for certain So how can we use these

443
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 1: women from the ancient world as role models, as cautionary tales,

444
00:24:14,600 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 1: as whatever? How can they help us out today. And

445
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's an interesting thing when you when

446
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 1: you look at patriarchal society as a whole, it does

447
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: systematically bar women from power. And I start my own

448
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:30,880
Speaker 1: talk about how chef said I put I put hot

449
00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: chops it in in context. I start my own lecture with

450
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,840
Speaker 1: four slides where I show how today women have so

451
00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: little political power. There are very few leaders of state,

452
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: prime ministers or presidents around the world who are female.

453
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,159
Speaker 1: Why are we so hostile to that? Why are we

454
00:24:46,200 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: so ambivalence to that power. There's even fewer female CEOs

455
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: and leaders of fortune companies who are women. In the

456
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,399
Speaker 1: United States, it's four percent candidates, just over six percent

457
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:59,560
Speaker 1: female CEOs. It's nothing. When we allow the free market

458
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 1: and the human organisms that pick who they want to

459
00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 1: have leadership over money, we do not choose women. It's extraordinary. Um.

460
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 1: The military is improving because you have a very top

461
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: down hierarchical um system in the United States, so you

462
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: do see female officers except for the Marines, but in

463
00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: the Air Force, the Army, and the Navy at and rising.

464
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 1: So that's improving ideological power and females there's just none.

465
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: Judeo Christian Islamic traditions do not suffer females and leadership positions,

466
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: So all of this is applicable, all of this is useful,

467
00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: and in my class women in Power in the ancient world,

468
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: we look at cognitive differences between males and females. Brain differences, um,

469
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 1: how how a female thinks or forgives versus a man,

470
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: how a well a female might think of her survival

471
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,199
Speaker 1: versus a man. All of these things I think are

472
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: important to bring out into the open and understand so

473
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: that they can be transcended. For example, did you know

474
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: that women hold grudges longer than men do, so somebody

475
00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: cuts you off or betrays you politically, that a woman

476
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:04,399
Speaker 1: is more likely to hold the grudge and cut that

477
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: person off than a man. And that if we learn

478
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 1: as females not to burn our bridges to get over

479
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: those those impasses, we would be better political leaders. But

480
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,800
Speaker 1: we have other we have strengths as well. For example,

481
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,680
Speaker 1: micro loan lenders don't like to give micro loans to men.

482
00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,639
Speaker 1: They like to give them to women because the woman

483
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: will buy the cow, make the cheese, make the business,

484
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,560
Speaker 1: and take care of her family. Too many micro loans

485
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 1: that go to men are brought into a bar and

486
00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:34,879
Speaker 1: exchange for political capital for drinks at the bar. And

487
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: you know that, and men often think that way because

488
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: our brains work in different ways. I like to look

489
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,919
Speaker 1: at the biological sources of it all. I like to

490
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,240
Speaker 1: think about how a female hunter gathering, you know, the

491
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 1: human origins or sources for how we might think and feel.

492
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: Her survival depended on her connection with her sister, with

493
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: her mother, with her close family. A man's hunter gather

494
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: survival depends on finding game far away, making connections with

495
00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: other troops far away, warfare with troops far away. These

496
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 1: are things that he depends on. So he is automatically

497
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 1: going to be more politically inclined genetically perhaps the cognitively

498
00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: than a female who is going to be genetically cognitively

499
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: more interested in looking towards her inner circle. All of

500
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 1: those things translate into how we perceive political power. So

501
00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 1: when and I put a slide up in my lecture

502
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,920
Speaker 1: where I put up an image of Maggie Factor, Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza, Rice,

503
00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: Angela Merkel, all of these women inaction at a podium talking,

504
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,159
Speaker 1: and I put up a male slide next to it,

505
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 1: and the females look angry and the males leaderly and strong,

506
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: and we have these visceral reactions, these emotional reactions, misperceptions

507
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: even or just perceptions of what power is for males

508
00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 1: or female without even thinking about it. And a lot

509
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: of the time we think females can't have power. They're

510
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: too hormonal, they're too they're too mercurial, they won't be

511
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: able to have a consistent leadership style. We need the men.

512
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: We we can't trust this, we're hostile towards it, or

513
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: ambivalent to, or more intellectually inclined or or open about

514
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:16,320
Speaker 1: female power. But for me, just like a baby might

515
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 1: be if it's a white baby more inclined and attracted

516
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,120
Speaker 1: to white faces, or a black baby might be more

517
00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: interested in cognitively looking at black faces like itself. That

518
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that can't be transcended later in life. So

519
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:33,200
Speaker 1: by the same token of female might actually be misperceived

520
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: as being self interested, as being um selfish, or be

521
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: seen as angry or hormonal. But if we're open about

522
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: how we feel about female leadership, then these things can

523
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: be transcended. So I like to look at the biological

524
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: roots of it at the sources of our distrust and

525
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: female power, and it's a very source of it all

526
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 1: is the fact that women can have babies and men cannot.

527
00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: And I always go back to the story of Marissa

528
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: Meyer CEO of JA who and everyone was was freaking

529
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 1: out that she had that baby. How can she possibly

530
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: be CEO of YAH who would have a baby simultaneously,

531
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: your feminist planets on TV saying, of course she can

532
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 1: have a baby and b CEO of Yah who simultaneously.

533
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: When that story came out, I was at home on

534
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: leave breastfeeding my child and I have five months off,

535
00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 1: and I remember holding my kid, looking at the TV

536
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: and saying, there's no way she can do is you

537
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: can't do it? Because I had little support and help

538
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 1: in that moment. I was going through postpartum depression and anxiety,

539
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: and these are the things that women have to deal with.

540
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 1: We need help to transcend our own bodies to maintain power.

541
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: I needed u c l A, my university, to give

542
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 1: me time off to go a little bit crazy, go hormonal,

543
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: come back to the real world. Put my kid too

544
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 1: into bay care system so I could be that that

545
00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: powerful female. If we don't have governmental systems societal help.

546
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:55,160
Speaker 1: We cannot transcend our bodies, have children and have it all.

547
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: These things are all very interesting to me. I don't

548
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: like to deny the biological and say, of work, you

549
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: can do it all. I like to bring all of

550
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: that in and say, okay, now what are we going

551
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: to do next. It was a long issue for that

552
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: gave me some sort of an insight into how I

553
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: think about all of this absolutely well, and it reminded

554
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:14,880
Speaker 1: me of one thing that jumped out to me at

555
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 1: the end of the book and the acknowledgments. You're talking

556
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: about that period of time when you just had your

557
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:23,600
Speaker 1: son and the book comes along and you're dealing with

558
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 1: writing a book while grappling with this new thing that

559
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: is childcare in your life. But you you right. I

560
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: could not have understood hat shepst before motherhood happened. And

561
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: I was just wondering if you could, especially because the

562
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 1: podcast is called Stuff Mom Never Told You. Um, I

563
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: was just wondering if you could sort of explained that

564
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: in a little bit A little bit. I mean, I

565
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: know that you already did someone in the previous answer,

566
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: but um, that was something that really jumped out to me.

567
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: I have never felt more isolated and more confused and

568
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 1: in a darker place than than when I had my son.

569
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: Through that post part of a year, it was a

570
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: very tough year, and I actually through a car accident

571
00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: and had to be your head trauma and almost died.

572
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: And that year was worse arguably than than that that

573
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 1: year post head traumer. It was tough because everything that

574
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: you thought as a that I thought as a woman,

575
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 1: that I could have was made intensely vulnerable in a

576
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: way that that I'd never experienced before that that child.

577
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 1: Having that child stripped me bear in a way that

578
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: that i've I still am grappling with and thinking about,

579
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,040
Speaker 1: because you're never more vulnerable and you're never more of

580
00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: a slave to your own body. And I think that

581
00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 1: in Western culture, not only do we like to deny

582
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:49,960
Speaker 1: death and pretend that it will never happen, you know,

583
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 1: we like to live forever on plastic surgery. And people

584
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: die in hospitals outside of our site. They don't die

585
00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:57,120
Speaker 1: in front of our own eyes. In the same way,

586
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, women today, especially women who want power and

587
00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 1: want careers, put off having a child. I put off

588
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 1: having a child until I was thirty eight years old.

589
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: And you think, yeah, I'm not going to be a

590
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 1: slice of this. I'm gonna do it right. I'm gonna

591
00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: be fine. You know, when I had my kid, I

592
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 1: was the first natural breach birth at US Aliens sixteen

593
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 1: years and fifty people watch my birth. It was a

594
00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 1: rock star birth. It was and you know, you have

595
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 1: that that joyous, exuberant moment, you know, a badass kind

596
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: of moment you think you could do anything. And then

597
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: the long, slow water torture of sleep deprivation and breast

598
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: feeding which was very hard for me, um and postpartum

599
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: hormonal problems which was very hard for me, hits, and

600
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: then it's a different thing. It's something that you can't

601
00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: really surmount. And for the ancient people that was unavoidable.

602
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: They couldn't put off child bearing. They this was what

603
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: every royal woman was expected to do. She was expected

604
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 1: to be a wound, to be a baby producer. That

605
00:32:56,320 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: was her job first and foremost. And yes, we're a

606
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: woman could give the child off to a wet nurse.

607
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: You know, in many ways, they had their daycare and

608
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: everything figured out as well. She was a working woman

609
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 1: hip as well, and she had support. She probably had

610
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: a lot more support than I did giving birth in

611
00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: that in that year after the baby, But to understand

612
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: the obstacles to female power, I think I had to

613
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 1: go through that, that childbirth experience and understand that the body,

614
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 1: the female body, is really the ground zero, the biggest

615
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 1: obstacle for why female powers are attainable. And if we

616
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: don't have social support systems in place, you'll you'll never

617
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: be able to get it. I've got to tell you,

618
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,400
Speaker 1: your answers make me want to like run up down

619
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: the street high fiving people. I loved your responses and

620
00:33:51,880 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 1: and it touches on so many different things that we

621
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: use recurring themes in the podcast. Recurring themes that we

622
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 1: hear especially are our women listeners, especially mothers who have

623
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: careers and are balancing all this stuff as well. So,

624
00:34:07,760 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's it's you know, we did a

625
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 1: whole series on lean in and women in the workplace

626
00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: and all of that stuff, and so, I mean, it

627
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: is kind of fascinating to hear those same ideas applied

628
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,200
Speaker 1: to ancient women who really, I mean, the more things change,

629
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: the more they stay the same. It soundssolutely people are

630
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 1: people are people. The biggest difference though, is life expectancy.

631
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,320
Speaker 1: So we get to live till we're eighty or ninety.

632
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: They got to live till they were forty. Big different

633
00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: and they had to bury so many children. We have

634
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 1: no notion of this. It's a baby died. Now. It's

635
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:40,120
Speaker 1: a weird and strange thing that people are ashamed of,

636
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 1: they can't talk about. In the ancient world, we would

637
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: have buried half of our children under our mud group floor,

638
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: and little cot would have been a normal thing. Yeah. Right,

639
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:51,880
Speaker 1: That's that's some severe trauma. That's something that we can't

640
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 1: even we can't even fathom. Right, Well, I mean I

641
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: got the impression because of issues like that, that people

642
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: in Egypt and in the world in general, faith that

643
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 1: they did have to pack in so much stuff into

644
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: their brief lives. And you know, hatch ups, that was

645
00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 1: certainly no was certainly no different. I mean, if anything,

646
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:15,759
Speaker 1: she packed thirty times more into her life. And so

647
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 1: that kind of leads me to our next question, which

648
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: is her legacy and what you consider her legacy to

649
00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: be sort of in general in Egypt and in our history,

650
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 1: but also in terms of the perception of women rulers.

651
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 1: What affected her legacy have Yeah, and chips is that

652
00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 1: extraordinary woman who who did it all right and got forgotten.

653
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: That's the point that that intrigues me the most, upsets

654
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 1: me the most, that I that I kind of mess

655
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,000
Speaker 1: with a lot because I don't think it's it's that

656
00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: unusual today. It's the woman who knows she can't change

657
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,400
Speaker 1: the patriarchy. I don't try to try to fit it.

658
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,840
Speaker 1: And that's you know, that's the way she has to

659
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,920
Speaker 1: work it. If a woman wants it all today to

660
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: have the baby, to have the job, she can't change

661
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:08,760
Speaker 1: her body and she can't change the economy of her womb.

662
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 1: She can't change the fact that it takes that long

663
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 1: to jest dates breastfeed, those things are unavoidable. And you know,

664
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: arguably women have to spend more time with their children

665
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: with the upbringing, with the breastfeeding than they did. And

666
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: when I when my mother was was bringing up her

667
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: kids when bottle feeding was normal, I mean in some

668
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 1: ways that it made things easier in some ways not um,

669
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: there are great expectations on on women having children with

670
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: careers to do the motherhood all in completely and totally

671
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 1: with you know, two years of breastfeeding, which I did,

672
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: and you know, baby carrying and which I did, and

673
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 1: family bed which I did, and all all of those

674
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: things so intense, so intensely, and still do the career

675
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: and the and the powerful side so intently and not

676
00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,480
Speaker 1: lose any of it. On either side. It's impossible, it's

677
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: impossi able to do. Something will be lost. And and

678
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: yet we as women gain something as as we go

679
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: through and we and we learned, we think differently, we

680
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,319
Speaker 1: rule differently, we um, we we behave differently when we

681
00:37:15,400 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: have power. And now that we're finally allowed to have power,

682
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: people see females I think as more of an asset

683
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 1: um as, and they're less um misperceived, and there's less

684
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,920
Speaker 1: hostility towards female power. I think Hillary is going to

685
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: have quite a run um in the next couple of years,

686
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: and and we'll see, I think in the next eight years.

687
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: The discussion of misogyny in the way that the Barack

688
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 1: Obama administration has been a discussion of racism and how

689
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 1: people perceive or misperceive the agenda of a certain person

690
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: because of their the color of their skin, and how

691
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 1: they grew up, their gender um These things are being

692
00:37:54,560 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: discussed and talked about very much like gay marriage and

693
00:37:57,640 --> 00:37:59,040
Speaker 1: what it means to be gay, and what it means

694
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:00,879
Speaker 1: to have that identity. All of these things are being

695
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:04,760
Speaker 1: openly discussed and talked about and very much transcended. Um,

696
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: so hot chepstood. I mean, she just she she helps

697
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: us do that because of her success and because of

698
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,239
Speaker 1: her power. And if I can help to resurrect her

699
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 1: and get people to be able to pronounce her name,

700
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,759
Speaker 1: then that then I can, you know, I can somehow

701
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 1: understand what it means to try to have it all

702
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:25,919
Speaker 1: because that's what we want, and that's what she did,

703
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: and and she got raised for it. You know, her

704
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,560
Speaker 1: name and names were raised, her images were erased. Um.

705
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: How often does that happen today? I think we need

706
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: to keep our eyes open. If Hillary does become president,

707
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: will what will be her legacy? D How will that work?

708
00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: What's the legacy of Maggie Thatcher? What's the legacy of

709
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: of an Angela Merkel? How does how does that work? Um?

710
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 1: I think legacy is super important because if you look

711
00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: at women in the ancient world, they never have a

712
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: genetic legacy. They never do. They don't get to become

713
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,800
Speaker 1: king on their on their own right, get a boyfriend

714
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: or a lover and have a child that's going to

715
00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: follow them onto the throne. It always ends up with

716
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: some other families, some other dynasty, some other man taking

717
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: over after them. They're just placeholders. They just stop gaps

718
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,200
Speaker 1: are just convenient things to have in the moment. How

719
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: can we women create a legacy didn't happen in the

720
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 1: ancient world? How can we transcend it into it now?

721
00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,560
Speaker 1: It's an interesting question and a perfect question, I think

722
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 1: to leave this conversation at These are all the questions

723
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:33,160
Speaker 1: that we had for you. Is there anything though about

724
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 1: at Cheps that women in power your work, um, that

725
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 1: you'd like to tell us about that we didn't ask you? Um?

726
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 1: What what's next on your plate? Yeah? I think you

727
00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 1: guys say everything that was great, UM, So I don't.

728
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: I don't think I need to add anything like that.

729
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: And what's next for me? Um? I am going to

730
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: move on to a book about political ideologies, how people

731
00:39:55,000 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 1: link religion and and power, and and I'm going to

732
00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: write a book about Akanat in a biography about Akanaton

733
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,480
Speaker 1: as the first religious fanatic in the world. And I

734
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: think religious extremism is certainly something that we talk to

735
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: talk about every day, all the time on the news,

736
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: and I'm going to do what I do with hot

737
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: chests that go jump dive back into the past and

738
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: try to see when it happened first time, how it happened,

739
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: why it happened, and see if I can make that

740
00:40:24,760 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: ancient story as applicable as possible to what we're dealing

741
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: with today. We'll definitely be looking forward to that and

742
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:32,840
Speaker 1: might have to ask you to come back on the

743
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: podcast when that No, no, probably you have to wait

744
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:39,360
Speaker 1: a couple of years. It'll take me a while, but

745
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: I'm on it. I'm on it. We'll just pencil listen

746
00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: for a couple of years from now. Also, if you

747
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,959
Speaker 1: want to tell our listeners where they can learn more

748
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:51,400
Speaker 1: both about you and your book, that would be great. Yeah. Sure.

749
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:53,960
Speaker 1: So I'm out there in the world digitally. I try

750
00:40:53,960 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 1: to keep a good present for my Facebook pages among

751
00:40:56,719 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: fifty followers and it's Karaconi each typtologists starts the k

752
00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: K R A C O N E Y. And I've

753
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: got a new web page up with all my articles

754
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: posted and uh academic work. I actually my academic work

755
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: is um I'm a coffin specialist with a little strain

756
00:41:15,719 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 1: but essentially I look at at social competition and how

757
00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:23,880
Speaker 1: people compete with one another using funerary arts kind of

758
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: like um, like we use weddings, you know, where if

759
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 1: you see the bride walking down the aisle and address,

760
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 1: you know pretty much what socionomic class she belongs to,

761
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 1: maybe with her ethnicity is what she's trying to prove.

762
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 1: I do the same thing with Coffin. So a lot

763
00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,120
Speaker 1: of that work is is on my website. And yeah,

764
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,280
Speaker 1: my my book, The Woman Who Would Be King Is

765
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 1: is available in bookstores everywhere. And uh, thank you guys

766
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,160
Speaker 1: so much for having me on the show. Well, thanks

767
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: for taking the time to talk to us. This has

768
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:58,839
Speaker 1: been really really fascinating, awesome, so huge thanks to Dr

769
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,360
Speaker 1: Kearney for taking the time to talk to us about

770
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: hat ships, set and women in power. I know that

771
00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: Caroline and I walked away from that conversation still talking

772
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,279
Speaker 1: about so much of what Cooney had to say and

773
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 1: how hatch ups that story applies to women in power

774
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: and even just women like us who are dealing with

775
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: day to day careers as well. So I don't know

776
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: about you, Caroline, but that was a really inspiring interview

777
00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: for for us to do. Yeah. Absolutely, I thought she

778
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:34,799
Speaker 1: hit on so many incredible points, not only about this

779
00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 1: amazing figure in history, but also just about womanhood and

780
00:42:39,040 --> 00:42:41,880
Speaker 1: what her own path has been like. Yeah. So to

781
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: learn more about Dr Cooney and to check out her book,

782
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 1: The Woman Who Would Be King, you can head over

783
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: to Kara Cooney. That's see oo n e y dot com.

784
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,400
Speaker 1: And now I want to hear from you. What are

785
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 1: your thoughts on hatch ups, set women in power? What

786
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:05,000
Speaker 1: we can learned today from ancient women. Moms Stuff at

787
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com is our email address. If

788
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: you want to tweet us, you can do that at

789
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got

790
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,480
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you when we

791
00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 1: come right back from a quick break and now back

792
00:43:19,640 --> 00:43:26,959
Speaker 1: to the show. Well, I gotta let her hear from

793
00:43:27,160 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: Danielle about our Women in the Construction Industry podcast. She writes,

794
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 1: I was excited to see the title of the podcast

795
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: because I have more than a few stories on the subject.

796
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: First of all, my mom was the first female to

797
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 1: work at a construction site in Ontario. She was definitely

798
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: hazed and couldn't use the outhouse for fear that the

799
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 1: men on her crew would pick it up with a

800
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: forklift while she was in it, which apparently happened regularly.

801
00:43:52,239 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: She did say that after some time, the men she

802
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: worked with became close like big brothers and looked out

803
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: for her. As for myself, I've worked in the our

804
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 1: or a culture and forestry industries for the past seven

805
00:44:02,840 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 1: years or so. I found school to be an amazing

806
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 1: experience and never felt different from the men. I felt

807
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: that my teachers encouraged me and motivated me to work

808
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:13,760
Speaker 1: just as hard as the boys, and they never singled

809
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 1: me out based on my gender. Once I started working

810
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:18,360
Speaker 1: in the field, however, I encountered men who seemed to

811
00:44:18,400 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: loathe me just for being female, and others who are

812
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 1: completely in awe that I would do a physical job.

813
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,320
Speaker 1: I'm more skilled than some of the men I've worked

814
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:29,239
Speaker 1: with when it comes to handling a chainsaw, and I

815
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: believe that having to teach myself the technique has helped.

816
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 1: I agree with your points that women don't get the

817
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:36,480
Speaker 1: mentorship that men do, and so we have to learn

818
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 1: the hard way. I've heard some of the most ridiculous

819
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: and disgusting things from coworkers, and have also worked with

820
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: some that seemed to think I was invisible. I've also

821
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:49,560
Speaker 1: noticed that if I shortened my name Danielle to Danny

822
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:54,080
Speaker 1: on resumes, I get way more interviews and callbacks, which

823
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 1: I assume is because the company believes I'm male. Thankfully,

824
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,720
Speaker 1: most of my job positions have put me on small crews,

825
00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: so eventually the men and I become close and in

826
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,000
Speaker 1: some cases good friends. I always joke with my female

827
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 1: friends that when I start to work with new people,

828
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,880
Speaker 1: I'm only seen as a woman for two weeks, and

829
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: then I become a man. At that point, no one

830
00:45:12,960 --> 00:45:15,879
Speaker 1: helped me carry anything or does any favors. They get

831
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:18,280
Speaker 1: that I'm working just as hard as them, and sometimes,

832
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: because of my small size, even harder. I think that

833
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: even at the higher corporate level I find myself now,

834
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: women don't get the same pay, respect, or job opportunities

835
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 1: as mem However, I'm optimistic that this next generation of

836
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 1: female workers, like the six year old mentioned in your

837
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 1: podcast my niece, will continue to break down the gender

838
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 1: barriers in the male dominated jobs. So thanks Danielle, and

839
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Mary. She says, first off,

840
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you, thank you. That podcast you all

841
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: did over women in construction was fantastic. It was ruthless,

842
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: brutally truthful, and enlightening. I'm emailing you because I'm a

843
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,520
Speaker 1: current senior pursuing a degree in construction management. I was

844
00:45:58,560 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 1: previously an engineering made yere, but I changed because construction

845
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: is the perfect blend of hands on organization and creativity. Essentially,

846
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: I see it as architecture slash engineering slash contractor combined

847
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 1: into one. I haven't had any firsthand experience on a

848
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 1: job site yet, but I will say I am one

849
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 1: of two girls in the entire program at my school.

850
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 1: All the rest are gents. It was the same in

851
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 1: my engineering classes, and it was the same in my

852
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: technical classes in high school. Hardly any girls. And to

853
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:30,520
Speaker 1: be honest, I've never known why there is more opportunity

854
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:33,800
Speaker 1: in this field than practically any other. Companies are fighting

855
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: to hire women because there is such a low percentage

856
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: of us applying. When I graduate, I can be an estimator,

857
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 1: b I am specialist, scheduler, safety coordinator, project engineer, project manager.

858
00:46:43,640 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: The list goes on and on. Have I experienced prejudice?

859
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:49,759
Speaker 1: It depends on how you see it or take it.

860
00:46:50,040 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: If someone says something inappropriate I often fire something witty

861
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,440
Speaker 1: right back. Women have to be ready to face these

862
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 1: kinds of situations. It's important not to take it super personally.

863
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 1: Harassment rarely. How in school, my classmates respect me and

864
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,319
Speaker 1: they learned to because I work my butt off and

865
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: I complete really quality work. As a woman, I'm more

866
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,759
Speaker 1: motivated to do my best to represent the gender and

867
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: gain a higher level of respect. It's sad, but the

868
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: reality is some of the guys just don't know how

869
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 1: to react with a strong, tomboy woman who likes to

870
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 1: play in the dirt, drive nails with a hammer, and

871
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,959
Speaker 1: wants to kick butt in this industry. From what I've seen,

872
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 1: the guys who do understand all of this are the

873
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: ones in management and supervisory positions. The construction management field

874
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: seems to be way less brutal than the trades field.

875
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 1: From a woman's standpoint, I'm thankful for women like Nicole

876
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 1: Curtis on HDTVs. Rehab Addict, who are true trailblazers. She's

877
00:47:37,960 --> 00:47:39,919
Speaker 1: making the field more open to women, and I hope

878
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 1: to do the same someday. Dude, I love Nicole Curtis

879
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 1: and Rehab Addict. My boyfriend sit around the house and

880
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 1: watch it all the time. So if she I agree,

881
00:47:49,480 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: she is a good figure. And I'm glad you're getting

882
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: out there and do what you love to do. Thanks

883
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,920
Speaker 1: for writing in, and thanks to everybody who's written into us.

884
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,520
Speaker 1: We've gotten so many letters, in particular about women in instruction,

885
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:03,399
Speaker 1: so keep all of them coming. Mom. Stuff at House

886
00:48:03,480 --> 00:48:07,440
Speaker 1: at works dot com is our email address and for

887
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: links to all of our social media as well as

888
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 1: all of our videos and blogs, including Seven Queens Who

889
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: Fought to Rule. If you're really into learning more about

890
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 1: powerful women of your head, on over to stuff Mom

891
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com for moral this, and thousands

892
00:48:27,719 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 1: of other topics. Doesn't how Stuff Works dot com