Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio
Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Minky Listener. Discretion is advised.
Speaker 1: From the outside, this penitentiary looked like the model of
Speaker 1: capital punishment. Its inmates powered factories that made the prison
Speaker 1: a center of industry, manufacturing goods that were shipped across
Speaker 1: the country in a system that penal experts hailed as
Speaker 1: a master class in efficiency and an example for other
Speaker 1: prisons to follow. But on the inside, inmates told a
Speaker 1: different story, one of severe punishments for infractions as minimal
Speaker 1: as playing cards in their cells, or, in some instances,
Speaker 1: for just speaking at all. Prisoners were immersed in ice
Speaker 1: baths to which nausea inducing chemicals had been added when
Speaker 1: they were suspected of faking illness. The beatings continued long
Speaker 1: after the prison claimed to have phased out corporal punishment,
Speaker 1: but when it eventually did, the alternatives were no better.
Speaker 1: Guards shifted their disciplinary methods to psychological ones, leaning on
Speaker 1: tactics like degradation, humiliation, and isolation to enforce penalties on inmates.
Speaker 1: Many were confined to the whole the medieval style dungeon
Speaker 1: that served as the prisons solitary confinement. Some were kept
Speaker 1: alone in the dark for ages. In one case, a
Speaker 1: man was kept alone in the hole for twelve long years.
Speaker 1: It's no wonder that stories of ghosts and hauntings abound here,
Speaker 1: a place that you can even visit yourself. So let's
Speaker 1: head to Jefferson City, Missouri and visit the Bloodiest forty
Speaker 1: seven acres in America, otherwise known as Missouri State Penitentiary.
Speaker 1: I'm Amy Brunei and welcome to Haunted Road. Missouri State
Speaker 1: Penitentiary was decommissioned in two thousand four after nearly one
Speaker 1: hundred seventy years of brutal incarceration, but the stories of
Speaker 1: harsh punishments and austere living conditions still live on in
Speaker 1: the buildings today, in the people who come to visit
Speaker 1: the prison, and in the spirits who have stayed behind,
Speaker 1: replaying their years at what is sometimes called the Bloodiest
Speaker 1: forty seven acres in America, over and over into infinity.
Speaker 1: The first state penal institution west of the Mississippi, Missouri
Speaker 1: State Penitentiary, opened in eighteen thirty six. It's located in
Speaker 1: Jefferson City, today, a city of about forty thousand midway
Speaker 1: between Kansas City and St. Louis on the Missouri River.
Speaker 1: Jeff City, as it's known to locals, was originally intended
Speaker 1: to be Missouri's capital as early back as eighteen twenty one.
Speaker 1: According to the City of Jefferson's historical records. The town
Speaker 1: was incorporated in eighteen twenty five, and the General Assembly
Speaker 1: moved there in eighteen twenty six. At that time, the
Speaker 1: town had thirty one families, a general store, a hotel,
Speaker 1: and a few other buildings. Other cities resented Jefferson's status
Speaker 1: and attempted to have the capital moved, Aiming to cement
Speaker 1: its status as Missouri's capital. Governor John Miller proposed the
Speaker 1: city as the site for a new state penitentiary in
Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two. This would become the Missouri State Penitentiary.
Speaker 1: Its first inmate, Wilson Eisen, was sentenced to over two
Speaker 1: years for stealing a watch valued at thirty nine dollars
Speaker 1: about eight hundred thirty dollars today. Initially, the prison only
Speaker 1: housed male inmates, but began incarcerating women in eighteen forty two.
Speaker 1: Even outside the prison walls, the city has seen its
Speaker 1: share of strife over the years. In eighteen forty nine,
Speaker 1: a ship carrying a mixture of Mormon migrants and gold
Speaker 1: rush hopefuls landed in Jefferson City. Some of the passengers
Speaker 1: were infected with cholera, and the resulting outbreak in the
Speaker 1: city lasted two long years. In eighteen fifty five, residents
Speaker 1: waited to welcome the first train on the new cific
Speaker 1: railroad line from St. Louis into Jefferson City, but it
Speaker 1: never arrived. A bridge collapse had caused a wreck over
Speaker 1: the Gasconade River that killed around thirty people and injured
Speaker 1: dozens more. During the Civil War, the state Assembly voted
Speaker 1: to remain in the Union, but Governor Jackson refused to
Speaker 1: recognize federal authority and also refused to send troops to
Speaker 1: fight for the Union Army, instead raising a militia to
Speaker 1: join the Confederate Army. In response, Union troops took over
Speaker 1: the city After the war ended, Missouri State Penitentiary built
Speaker 1: housing unit for commonly known as a hall, for post
Speaker 1: Civil War criminals who spent their days quarrying stone. The
Speaker 1: prison eventually expanded its industrial work, manufacturing products with prison labor.
Speaker 1: By eighty five, according to sources, it housed six shoe factories,
Speaker 1: clothing broom and twine factories, and the largest saddletree factory
Speaker 1: in the world. Located on a bluff overlooking the Missouri River,
Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary is a collection of buildings ringed with
Speaker 1: a limestone wall two and a half feet thick in
Speaker 1: parts as high as thirty feets hall, dotted with eleven
Speaker 1: guard towers. The wall itself is one of the oldest
Speaker 1: architectural structures in the city, with sections still standing today
Speaker 1: that were built between eighteen thirty three and eighteen thirty
Speaker 1: five before the prison opened. Although some of the buildings
Speaker 1: were torn down when the prison was decommissioned in two
Speaker 1: thousand four, including the chapel and warehouses, many remain, including
Speaker 1: multiple housing units and factories, as well as the gas chamber.
Speaker 1: Six of the prison cells date back to the eighteen forties.
Speaker 1: The oldest remaining building, a hall, was built in eighteen
Speaker 1: sixty eight in the high Victorian Gothic style. The castle
Speaker 1: like four story building has cells that overlook a central hall,
Speaker 1: the isolation cells where prisoners were kept in solitary confinement
Speaker 1: or in the basement of that building. Housing Unit one,
Speaker 1: built in nineteen o five, was the female department of
Speaker 1: the prison. Above one of the arches leading inside was
Speaker 1: the biblical quote, he who converteth a center from the
Speaker 1: error of his way, shall save a soul from death.
Speaker 1: Additional housing units were built about a decade later, and
Speaker 1: the prison added a gas chamber in nineteen thirty seven.
Speaker 1: Until that point, all of the executions, and there were many,
Speaker 1: were public hangings, with countless citizens of Jefferson City watching
Speaker 1: the building housing The gas chamber has two viewing rooms
Speaker 1: and two cells. Inside the white walled gas chambers, steel
Speaker 1: execution chairs are still in place to this day. Also
Speaker 1: still on the property the J. S. Sullivan Saddletree Factory Building,
Speaker 1: constructed in eighteen ninety two, Primeers Boot and Shoe Factory
Speaker 1: originally built around eighteen eighty nine, which was burned in
Speaker 1: the nineteen fifty four prison riots and rebuilt in the
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and the hobby Craft building, completed in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty eight. Though the prisoners were employed in those factories,
Speaker 1: they were still subject to harsh treatment from guards, both
Speaker 1: in the factories and in the prison buildings themselves. Corporal
Speaker 1: punishment was rampant in the prisons earlier days. Inmates were
Speaker 1: routinely flogged for offenses such as playing cards in their
Speaker 1: cells and talking in the prisons op according to meticulous
Speaker 1: logs from the eighteen eighties. According to an article in
Speaker 1: the St. Louis Post Dispatch, four prisoners who had tools
Speaker 1: in their cells and tried to escape got the following punishment.
Speaker 1: One half of head shaved and leg irons. Conditions were
Speaker 1: bad even for those who weren't cop breaking the rules.
Speaker 1: By the late eighteen hundreds, according to the Penitentiaries Historical Timeline,
Speaker 1: it was considered one of the most efficient prisons in
Speaker 1: the country, housing and feeding inmates for eleven cents per day.
Speaker 1: That's about three dollars and fifty cents in today's dollars.
Speaker 1: By contrast, today the cost of incarceration in America is
Speaker 1: about one eight dollars per prisoner per day. However, efficiency
Speaker 1: in the Missouri State Penitentiary did not equal safety. Violence
Speaker 1: persisted within the walls, both from inmates and from guards.
Speaker 1: In one nineteen o five incident, an inmate, a guard,
Speaker 1: and a gatekeeper were killed and three more men were
Speaker 1: wounded during an escape attempt in which four prisoners attempted
Speaker 1: to use nitroglycerin to destroy the prisons iron Gates. Mistreatment
Speaker 1: from the guards wasn't just common, it was encouraged by
Speaker 1: prison officials. In a nineteen oh six opinion piece in
Speaker 1: the Kentucky Post and Time, star warden Matt W. Hall
Speaker 1: called for hanging anyone who had committed a wilful and
Speaker 1: deliberate murder and declared, I would amend the Constitution of
Speaker 1: the United States and unsexed every man or woman as
Speaker 1: soon as the fact was established that he or she
Speaker 1: was a habitual criminal, I would let the second offense
Speaker 1: of larceny established the fact. The prison claimed to have
Speaker 1: ended floggings and other corporal punishments around the turn of
Speaker 1: the twentieth century, instead choosing to punish inmates by placing
Speaker 1: them in the hole. The dungeon like basement isolation cells
Speaker 1: where the worst offenders were kept, including inmates on death row.
Speaker 1: These six foot by five foot cells were tiny and
Speaker 1: dark and could house prisoners for a very long time.
Speaker 1: Some inmates spent more than a decade in the whole.
Speaker 1: One man JB. Firebug Johnson spent twelve of his eighteen
Speaker 1: years in the penitent jury in solitary. Convicted of robbery,
Speaker 1: he attacked several guards and set the prisons harness shop
Speaker 1: ablaze in eighteen eighty three, a fire which destroyed three
Speaker 1: buildings and left four convicts severely burned. Newspapers of the
Speaker 1: time reported that he spent his days training the cockroaches
Speaker 1: in his cell, as well as learning to read and
Speaker 1: to write. Eventually, he authored a book called Buried Alive
Speaker 1: or Eighteen Years in the Missouri Penitentiary. However, in nineteen thirteen,
Speaker 1: prisoners told The Washington Post that not only did flogging
Speaker 1: persist as a punishment in the institution, but that they
Speaker 1: were subjected to being held underwater in ice bats with
Speaker 1: a Nazia causing chemical added if they were thought to
Speaker 1: be faking illness to avoid prison labor. By nineteen thirty two,
Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary held fifty two hundred inmates, the largest
Speaker 1: inmate population in the United States. According to Atlas Obscura,
Speaker 1: it was considered one of the most successful prisons in
Speaker 1: the country. However, that is a far larger number of
Speaker 1: inmates than the prison was designed to hold, another act
Speaker 1: that speaks to the quality of the living conditions inside
Speaker 1: those walls. Once the gas chamber was installed in nineteen
Speaker 1: thirty seven, it was the site of forty executions. The
Speaker 1: first men executed in the gas chamber on March third,
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, where John Brown thirty five and William
Speaker 1: Wright thirty two. Brown had been convicted of killing a
Speaker 1: police officer while holding up a bar, and Wright had
Speaker 1: killed an employee in a drug store robbery. At least
Speaker 1: one prisoner executed in the gas chamber, twenty four year
Speaker 1: old Robert West, had helped to corey the stone that
Speaker 1: built it. One man, Claude McGee, was executed in nineteen
Speaker 1: fifty one for a crime committed within the prison. He
Speaker 1: had beaten a fellow inmate, John Masson, to death with
Speaker 1: a hammer in the prison yard in nineteen forty eight.
Speaker 1: Only one woman was ever executed at the Missouri State Penitentiary,
Speaker 1: Bonnie B. Hetty, who, along with Carl Austin Hall, kidnapped
Speaker 1: and murdered a young boy. They were both executed on
Speaker 1: December eighteenth, nineteen fifty three. Hetty would be the last
Speaker 1: woman executed by the federal government until twenty twenty one.
Speaker 1: The last execution at the prison of George tiny Mercer
Speaker 1: was done by lethal injection in nineteen eighty nine. In
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, a deadly riot shook the prison. At
Speaker 1: the time, the penitentiary held two thousand, five hundred seventy
Speaker 1: five inmates, almost four hundred more than in nineteen thirty two,
Speaker 1: when the prison was already considered to be deeply overcrowded.
Speaker 1: At the time of the riot, many prisoners had grievances,
Speaker 1: according to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, over bad food,
Speaker 1: dirty conditions, and an unforgiving parole board. An inmate later
Speaker 1: said that the cause of the riot was brutality, cruel
Speaker 1: and unusual punishment by the guards, and that the clothes
Speaker 1: they wore were raggedy clothes that didn't fit them, the
Speaker 1: shoes they wore didn't fit them, and you were short
Speaker 1: changed on medication. There too, inmates and EHL Lord guards
Speaker 1: to their cell. The overpowered them and stole their keys,
Speaker 1: proceeding to free other inmates from their cells. According to
Speaker 1: a history from the Missouri State Penitentiary, soon a large
Speaker 1: group of inmates was running loose race around the compound
Speaker 1: and emptying other cell blocks along their path. One group
Speaker 1: of inmates entered the dining hall, smashing windows and chairs.
Speaker 1: In the prison shops, anything flammable was set a fire
Speaker 1: freed inmates didn't just enact revenge on the guards and
Speaker 1: the prison itself, but on fellow incarceories. As violence ran rampant,
Speaker 1: one inmate in solitary confinement, thirty year old Walter Lee Donald,
Speaker 1: was tortured and eventually killed with a sledgehammer by fellow prisoners.
Speaker 1: Donald was incarcerated for first degree robbery and had testified
Speaker 1: against others. Called a stool pigeon, he had been stabbed
Speaker 1: while in the general population and was in solitary for
Speaker 1: his own protection. In an attempt to control the riot,
Speaker 1: state troopers responded and opened fire on the prison from
Speaker 1: the administration building with machine guns, killing three more inmates
Speaker 1: and injuring nineteen others. Police forces eventually called the riot,
Speaker 1: during which no prisoners escaped. The damage, though was extensive.
Speaker 1: Fire set by inmates destroyed a number of structures and
Speaker 1: foting the prisons recreation building, vocational building, tobacco shop, license
Speaker 1: plate factory, and dining hall, which housed the chapel and
Speaker 1: the prison school. As Mike Lear described in his history
Speaker 1: of the riot, the Truman Commission that studied the prison
Speaker 1: after the September nineteen fifty four riot used the word
Speaker 1: deplorable repeatedly in its report on the conditions and state
Speaker 1: of the facility. Despite the riot and the public scrutiny,
Speaker 1: that prison then received nothing inside changed. Seven inmates were
Speaker 1: convicted on murder charges, but all of them gave what
Speaker 1: were believed to be coerced confessions a month later. Another
Speaker 1: shorter riot occurred in October of that year, during which
Speaker 1: one inmate, year old Joseph our Coffee, was killed by
Speaker 1: corrections officers. A new warden, E. V. Nash, was brought
Speaker 1: in after the riot, but violence and poor conditions continued
Speaker 1: inside the walls. Another wave of violence in nineteen sixty
Speaker 1: four finally prompted an overhaul of the prison when an
Speaker 1: administrative review condemned conditions inside. A day after review, on
Speaker 1: December eighteenth, nineteen sixty four, Nash shot himself in the
Speaker 1: head in a house across the street from the penitentiary
Speaker 1: after returning home from a Department of Corrections Christmas party.
Speaker 1: A new warden and a new state Director of Corrections
Speaker 1: were hired, who saw to it that rehabilitation programs were improved.
Speaker 1: Fresh food was provided, more shower rooms were constructed, and
Speaker 1: recreation facilities including a handball cart and miniature golf course
Speaker 1: were built for the inmates. While conditions did improve over
Speaker 1: the years, one year in the nineteen seventies, the penitentiary
Speaker 1: had thirteen inmate homicides. It said that overall, more than
Speaker 1: two thousand people died inside the walls during the prisons operation.
Speaker 1: After operating continuously for over one hundred sixty years, the
Speaker 1: penitentiary closed in two thousand four and inmates were moved
Speaker 1: to the nearby Jefferson City Correctional Center. Famous inmates over
Speaker 1: the years include political activists Emma Goldman and Kate O'Hare,
Speaker 1: boxer Sunny Liston Bank, Robbert, Pretty Boy Floyd, and Lee Shelton,
Speaker 1: the inspiration for the folk song stagger. Lee list And
Speaker 1: learned to box while incarcerated there, and his skills led
Speaker 1: to him being granted early parole in nineteen fifty two.
Speaker 1: Another prisoner, James Earl Ray, successfully escaped the penitentiary in
Speaker 1: a bread truck in nineteen sixty seven. Just under a
Speaker 1: year later, he would go on to assassinate Martin Luther
Speaker 1: King Jr. An activist for the Socialist Party. O'Hara became
Speaker 1: a prison reformer after her release. She also reported that
Speaker 1: many of the women incarcerated with her in nineteen nineteen
Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty turned to spiritualism. In letters home, O'Hara wrote,
Speaker 1: these poor victims of society feel that God takes no
Speaker 1: concern for them, and they are not strong enough to
Speaker 1: stand alone. So they find comfort for their six souls
Speaker 1: in the belief that they're dead. Comrades and misery come
Speaker 1: back to care for and protect them. In the weary
Speaker 1: hours after the lights are out. The cell house is
Speaker 1: peopled by many ghosts, but they are all kindly, comfortable,
Speaker 1: amiable ghosts who flit about all night on air of
Speaker 1: mercy and love. She wasn't the only one talking about
Speaker 1: ghosts inside the penitentiary. Even before the prison closed, guards
Speaker 1: and inmates alike reported paranormal activity. Jamie Rasmussen wrote about
Speaker 1: the hauntings in her book on the Missouri State Penitentiary.
Speaker 1: When the prison still operated, She wrote, some guards reported
Speaker 1: hearing footsteps after all the prisoners were in their cells.
Speaker 1: When the guard would turn to look, he would see
Speaker 1: a shadowy figure that looked like it was wrapped in
Speaker 1: a blanket to keep warm. Others said Firebug Johnson still
Speaker 1: walked the halls. One former guard who began working there
Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, told the News Tribune about an experience
Speaker 1: he had while working in the penitentiary. During a routine
Speaker 1: head count, the guard said he saw an inmate with
Speaker 1: long blonde hair and a white T shirt walk out
Speaker 1: a door. Thinking this inmate was trying to escape, the
Speaker 1: guard frantically searched the grounds and a parked supply van,
Speaker 1: but there was no sign of the man he had seen.
Speaker 1: Then he noticed another inmate watching him. I shut the
Speaker 1: doors and I'm like what, and he goes, you ain't
Speaker 1: going to find that guy. I said, what are you
Speaker 1: talking about? He said, I saw him. I said what
Speaker 1: did he look like? And he said he had long
Speaker 1: blonde hair and a white T shirt. He says, wells,
Speaker 1: we ain't got nobody in this building that looks like that.
Speaker 1: And I was just like, whoa, You're right. It felt
Speaker 1: like somebody had just punched me in the chest. According
Speaker 1: to a paranormal history of the prison by Kathy Wiser Alexander,
Speaker 1: throughout the old facilities, people have heard cell doors slamming,
Speaker 1: ghostly footsteps, loud banging, shadowy figures, the smell of cigarette smoke,
Speaker 1: objects being mysteriously moved around and fast moving entities. They
Speaker 1: also report having felt dread, a sense of sorrow, and
Speaker 1: a feeling of being watched. According to another book about
Speaker 1: hauntings in Missouri, one visitor saw the bloodied face of
Speaker 1: a prisoner looking out from the third tier of cells
Speaker 1: and asked to leave the tour. Apparitions of prisoners and
Speaker 1: old fashioned dress, both male and female, have been reported,
Speaker 1: as well as sightings of orbs and even of UFOs.
Speaker 1: There have been many accounts of a woman wearing a
Speaker 1: long gray skirt and gray, high collared blouse in the
Speaker 1: women's prison area. Some have claimed to have sensed the
Speaker 1: spirits of children and dogs. At least one child was
Speaker 1: present at the prison for a time. According to the St.
Speaker 1: Louis Post Dispatch, in a woman named Maddie Scott begged
Speaker 1: a judge at her sentencing not to keep her away
Speaker 1: from her four month old daughter. The judge allowed her
Speaker 1: to take her child to the prison. A hall, the
Speaker 1: oldest building on the site, is also said to be
Speaker 1: the most haunted. Reports of activity here include visitors being
Speaker 1: touched or scratched by unseen hands, the feeling of someone
Speaker 1: breathing down your neck, disembodied voices, strong smells, shadow figures
Speaker 1: walking between cells, apparitions and electronics acting up. In the
Speaker 1: isolation cell where Walter Lee Donald was bludgeoned to death,
Speaker 1: Number forty eight, visitors claim to have captured an apparition
Speaker 1: of a man, as well as having strange feelings. A
Speaker 1: spirit nicknamed fast Jack or occasionally Fast Harry, is said
Speaker 1: to show up in the housing units and control room,
Speaker 1: as well as the tunnels connecting the buildings. Though he
Speaker 1: appears to be solid, even wearing a white lab coat
Speaker 1: and carrying a clipboard, he's sometimes seen moving through walls.
Speaker 1: Some believe that he once worked in the prisons medical facility,
Speaker 1: possibly as an inmate whose job was to escort fellow
Speaker 1: prisoners to and from the clinic. According to tour guide
Speaker 1: Mary Lacy, he has been seen by many people, and
Speaker 1: the description is always that he is walking quickly down
Speaker 1: a hallway with his back to the person. According to
Speaker 1: Kathy Wiser Alexander's Haunted History of the Prison, at one
Speaker 1: point a tour guide passed through the control center to
Speaker 1: secure the outer doors, only to return just a few
Speaker 1: minutes later to find all the lockers had been opened.
Speaker 1: This antic was attributed to fast Jack. It probably won't
Speaker 1: surprise you to learn that the gas chamber is one
Speaker 1: of the most haunted places on the grounds. Visitors report
Speaker 1: hearing groans and cries in the spaces, as well as
Speaker 1: women's whispers. Some claim that the ghost of Bonnie B. Hetty,
Speaker 1: executed in nineteen fifty three, still lingers in the gas chamber.
Speaker 1: Hetty was notoriously talkative until the end, telling the guards
Speaker 1: who were tightening the straps on the gas chamber chair
Speaker 1: what was variously reported as it's all right or it
Speaker 1: is tight and I'm not going anywhere. She also said
Speaker 1: goodbye to the prison guards and asked, hall, are you
Speaker 1: all right, honey. Reporters noted that the two kept on
Speaker 1: talking to each other even after the door to the
Speaker 1: lethal chamber had been sealed. Paranormal investigator Dan Terry claims
Speaker 1: to have made contact with the spirit of George tiny Mercer,
Speaker 1: the last person to be executed in the gas chamber,
Speaker 1: inside the space. To talk more about the hauntings at
Speaker 1: Missouri State Pen, I have Diane Kitchell coming up next.
Speaker 1: She has been a ghost tour guide there for years
Speaker 1: and it's built up quite the rapport with the spirits there.
Speaker 1: She has some downright terrifying experiences to share, so we'll
Speaker 1: get to those after the break. I am now joined
Speaker 1: by Diane Kitchel, who is a ghost tour guide at
Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary, and I have no doubt she has
Speaker 1: no shortage of stories to tell us. So thanks for
Speaker 1: joining us, Diane, thank you for having me. I appreciate
Speaker 1: the APA, of course, you know so I am. I
Speaker 1: have investigated Missouri State Penitentiary probably half a dozen times
Speaker 1: over the years, and I have never been in there
Speaker 1: and not had some sort of experience. I have experienced shadows,
Speaker 1: I have experienced banging sounds, I have experienced the sounds
Speaker 1: of doors sliding shut off in the distance. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's just never ending. And so you must have the
Speaker 1: most fun job ever, the best job on the planet. Indeed,
Speaker 1: what would you say, is probably the paranormal report that
Speaker 1: comes out of there more than anything else. Oh, a
Speaker 1: lot of people get their hair touched or pulled, especially
Speaker 1: the pretty young blondes. That happens quite a lot. Um,
Speaker 1: we do get scratches on some people saying things out
Speaker 1: of the corner of their eye, good old peripheral vision.
Speaker 1: There's not many places that I go into and I
Speaker 1: feel scared or you know, but and I don't feel
Speaker 1: scared at Missouri State, but I definitely do get sometimes
Speaker 1: kind of like an anxious feeling or like always looking
Speaker 1: over my shoulder. But also sometimes I just feel sad,
Speaker 1: like I just feel like sadness. And so it must
Speaker 1: be kind of interesting. I know that during the day
Speaker 1: you guys have historical tours and then at night you
Speaker 1: have the ghost tours. And so when people do the
Speaker 1: ghost tours, what kind of experiences do they have? Well,
Speaker 1: that runs the gamut you've had, you know, everything from
Speaker 1: thinking they herod whispering or maybe got in touch to
Speaker 1: seeing a full blown shadow figure. Are speakers as we
Speaker 1: like to call them, Sometimes they sometimes they like to
Speaker 1: lean out of the cells and just kind of check
Speaker 1: you out and go agreet them again. You know, they
Speaker 1: about back in that what would you say is maybe
Speaker 1: the most compelling experience that you've had in Missouri State.
Speaker 1: Somebody explained doppel gangers to me because they freaked me out.
Speaker 1: Two years ago was the year of the doppel Ganger.
Speaker 1: At MSP. I mean, we've we've gotten them once in
Speaker 1: a while. We would hear something mimicking one of us,
Speaker 1: or we would, you know, maybe once a year, once
Speaker 1: every year and a half, we would see a double
Speaker 1: of someone. But two years ago it was just bananas.
Speaker 1: One guide saw me standing at the back of her
Speaker 1: tour texting on my cell phone, and her daughter happened
Speaker 1: to be working the tour as well, so she texted
Speaker 1: her mother, who was working the gift shop, and said, wise,
Speaker 1: Diane on this one's tour, and they go, She's not.
Speaker 1: She's in the lobby starting her tour. That's bizarre. I
Speaker 1: have seen them of our police officers. I think they
Speaker 1: mimicked our police officers are security at night more often,
Speaker 1: and my personal theory on it was that they were
Speaker 1: mimicking them more so because unlike a guide who is
Speaker 1: with one tour the entire night, the security kind of
Speaker 1: pardon the term, floats between tours and they don't have
Speaker 1: to be at a certain place at a certain time,
Speaker 1: and they just freaked me out. You don't know you've
Speaker 1: seen one until you see the real person somewhere where.
Speaker 1: It's absolutely impossible for them to a band when you
Speaker 1: just saw them, you know, over there. That's very strange,
Speaker 1: because I mean, I've heard of doppelgangers and I've experienced
Speaker 1: spirits mimicking like us, like our voices or our equipment,
Speaker 1: but I've not heard of it being so prevalent in
Speaker 1: one location. It makes me wonder, like, what's happening with
Speaker 1: the energy there or what did they discover that they
Speaker 1: could do that made them want to do that. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's at such an interesting and really odd report. And
Speaker 1: not to mention that how many times did you interact
Speaker 1: with a doppelganger and not realize it and think you
Speaker 1: were interacting with that person? Like those are only the
Speaker 1: times you notice, like how long has that been going on?
Speaker 1: There is no interaction with a doppel ganger. We have
Speaker 1: seen enough of them to know they've always got a
Speaker 1: very blank, flat effect. There's no facial expression. Their face
Speaker 1: is totally there. It's not weird looking or anything. It
Speaker 1: looks exactly like that person. But they just you know,
Speaker 1: show no no emotion, no anything. And they do seem
Speaker 1: to kind of move a little bit differently. They don't walk,
Speaker 1: you know, with that kind of up and down bob
Speaker 1: like human beings do when they really walk. Well that
Speaker 1: is super creepy. Yes, So you're saying that that was
Speaker 1: a couple of years ago was happening all the time,
Speaker 1: but now it seems like it's not happening as often. Right,
Speaker 1: it's died back. But you know, I do like to
Speaker 1: tell the stories on my tours. And when you've got,
Speaker 1: you know, well over twenty people, if not over thirty
Speaker 1: people in your tour group, who's to say there isn't
Speaker 1: one sitting there listening to the tour because we don't
Speaker 1: all know each other. We never saw each other until
Speaker 1: them you walk through the doors. So that's really wild. Well,
Speaker 1: I think I was there. Actually, I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: trying to remember when we were shooting with Ghost Hunters there.
Speaker 1: I want to I feel like it was a year ago.
Speaker 1: I don't think it was two years ago, but I
Speaker 1: don't feel like I remember hearing that. It would be funny, though,
Speaker 1: if any of the Ghost Hunters team appeared to me
Speaker 1: as a doppleganger, I just didn't know. Trying to imagine
Speaker 1: I would know instantly because I know them all very well.
Speaker 1: Doppelgangers check. That is really interesting. Now I had a
Speaker 1: very nonpair. This is just a story. It's not paranormal,
Speaker 1: but it did happen to me at Missouri State and
Speaker 1: it's a story that Adam and I tell quite often.
Speaker 1: We were filming there, it was like, oh gosh, it
Speaker 1: was a summer years ago, and they were doing one
Speaker 1: kind of one of those back of the van scenes,
Speaker 1: and Adam and I were not partaking in that conversation,
Speaker 1: so we were just kind of standing off to the
Speaker 1: side and we hear this huge bang in the building
Speaker 1: behind us, and so we're like, let's go. Like the
Speaker 1: camera crew was busy, so we just grabbed a camera
Speaker 1: and we went in by ourselves with the camera and
Speaker 1: we go up the stairs and we're following this sound
Speaker 1: and we keep getting closer and closer, and we're hearing
Speaker 1: this like movement and I'm like, gosh, there's someone in here,
Speaker 1: like and we get up to the top. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like that first set of stairs that you go
Speaker 1: in and they use that office area a lot now
Speaker 1: for like crafty areas and um snacks and stuff. We
Speaker 1: go past that and there's a garbage can at the
Speaker 1: end of the hallway. We hear this and we we
Speaker 1: get up to it. I'm like, it sounds like it's
Speaker 1: coming from the garbage can. And so we get to
Speaker 1: this can and I shine my flashlight in there, and
Speaker 1: this raccoon that was like easily as big as a
Speaker 1: large dog, was not like running away. It literally jumped
Speaker 1: out at us like it was coming for us, like
Speaker 1: it wanted to eat our We wanted to eat our
Speaker 1: faces off. And so Adam and I we sprinted down
Speaker 1: that hallway, we jumped, we cleared those stairs like and
Speaker 1: that thing followed us and then it went up into
Speaker 1: the ceiling. So all night when we would go in
Speaker 1: to get crafty in the office there there's those like tiles.
Speaker 1: It was just staring at everyone. So whenever people ask me, like,
Speaker 1: what's one of the scariest things that ever happened to
Speaker 1: me on an investigation, I tell them about the raccoon
Speaker 1: that wanted to murder us at Missouri State Penitentiary. So
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've encountered those many times. But the other
Speaker 1: thing I encountered, though, that was less murderous but scary,
Speaker 1: was the shadow figures. And they're tall shadow figures. How
Speaker 1: often do you see those? Well, I would thank Missouri
Speaker 1: State Penitentiary is maybe like other haunted places, it's not
Speaker 1: you know, like on a timeline or anything. Sometimes you're
Speaker 1: in there and it's just quiet as a church and
Speaker 1: then sometimes the activities just off the rails, but shadow figure.
Speaker 1: I know we see them weekly for sure. Yeah, And
Speaker 1: like you were saying, you called them peakers, and they
Speaker 1: do that thing where they kind of like looking to
Speaker 1: see who's on patrol or something. I mean, I'm generalizing,
Speaker 1: I'm basing that on what I feel might be happening,
Speaker 1: But like you said, you'll see them kind of look
Speaker 1: down at you down the hallway, and um, I just
Speaker 1: it does seem like they're kind of trying to see
Speaker 1: who's on duty at that moment. And now, what would
Speaker 1: you say is probably the most haunted area where people
Speaker 1: would experience the most activity if they go visit. Oh, well,
Speaker 1: like I said, it can shift anywhere, but in general,
Speaker 1: I would say the most reports either come from the
Speaker 1: dungeon and Housing Unit four or the three D section,
Speaker 1: which is administrative segregation below Death Row and Housing Unit three.
Speaker 1: Last time we had been there, I do feel like
Speaker 1: they had unearthed some very old cells. Have you had
Speaker 1: any activity around those or did anything pick up when
Speaker 1: they have dug those out? I think it might have
Speaker 1: picked up just a little bit when we first opened
Speaker 1: them to the public got them all finished, But then
Speaker 1: it's kinda died back down again. Maybe so, I don't know,
Speaker 1: maybe they welcomed the new guys in and yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it is really strange because they're just they were
Speaker 1: just there that whole time, and it just kind of
Speaker 1: goes to show how far back the history goes there.
Speaker 1: Now another area that I have a real problem with,
Speaker 1: and I don't even think I went in there last time,
Speaker 1: because the first time I went in there, I couldn't
Speaker 1: stand it is the gas chamber, and I've distinctly heard
Speaker 1: whispers in there, but I don't know if it's just
Speaker 1: the energy of what went on there or what. But
Speaker 1: do you include that in your tour? Do people get
Speaker 1: to go in there? Oh? Yes, Oh yes, that's the
Speaker 1: usually the last half hour of the two hour tour
Speaker 1: would be going down to the gas chamber. Have you
Speaker 1: had experiences there? I'm myself really they have not. That's
Speaker 1: always been a very quiet place for me. Now. Wait,
Speaker 1: I did have one, uh, not very long ago. It
Speaker 1: was a private group and they were there were three guys,
Speaker 1: two gals, and they were live casting to Facebook and
Speaker 1: we were in the gas chamber and one man was
Speaker 1: sitting in Carl's chair, the other man was sitting in
Speaker 1: Bonnie's chair. Bonnie Brown Hetty and Carl Austin Hall but
Speaker 1: were executed together, and you know, they were kind of
Speaker 1: asking Carl and Bonnie related questions and I was just
Speaker 1: standing there watching and listening. And of course these guys
Speaker 1: were both in the chairs doing the Stes method. I
Speaker 1: might have forgot to mention that, but they both both
Speaker 1: had on blindfolds and the noise canceling headphones and d
Speaker 1: S B seven's and the guy that was sitting in
Speaker 1: Carl's chair just kept kind of making these faces and
Speaker 1: he wasn't, you know, spitting out any words. And finally
Speaker 1: he just said, well, this is me, and he said,
Speaker 1: I'm not hearing a single syllable, but I am just
Speaker 1: getting these waves of emotions. And so the guy next
Speaker 1: to him that was sitting in Bonnie's chair, he'd spit
Speaker 1: out a word, you know, random words, and some of
Speaker 1: the more relevance some weren't. But I'm not that fond
Speaker 1: of Bonnie for many reasons, and she probably knows it.
Speaker 1: But um, he said something that was very pertinent, something
Speaker 1: that I had just mentioned in a story to them
Speaker 1: as I was taking them down the hill and I
Speaker 1: looked at him. It just came out. I said, oh,
Speaker 1: you bitch, because I knew who was speaking, and his
Speaker 1: face turned towards mine. He couldn't see me. His face
Speaker 1: turned towards me, and he says, I know you. That's
Speaker 1: one of my favorite methods of communicating is doing that
Speaker 1: the SS method, the spirit box experiment that we do
Speaker 1: on Kindred a lot, and that's actually really fascinating to
Speaker 1: do it in the gas chamber and have them both
Speaker 1: go under like that. Adam and I've done that a
Speaker 1: few times. It's always very interesting. But that's just concerting.
Speaker 1: It's bizarre that she knows you that. Well, oh well,
Speaker 1: we call the guys are co workers because we're in
Speaker 1: there all the time, you know. We we do treat
Speaker 1: them with respect that that people probably think I'm nuts,
Speaker 1: But you know, when I go in there and unlock,
Speaker 1: and I'm the first one on the property and I'm
Speaker 1: unlocking buildings, I'll open the door and say, hey, fellas,
Speaker 1: good evening. You know we're going to have so many
Speaker 1: tours through or tonight and be out of your hair
Speaker 1: at this time of day. And I mean that's smart
Speaker 1: because you want to set the expectation, so they know,
Speaker 1: because they could get more volatile if you don't, you know,
Speaker 1: give them those expectations as you begin. And you know,
Speaker 1: speaking of that, you said that sometimes people get scratched.
Speaker 1: What leads to that? Why do you think certain people
Speaker 1: get scratched there? I really don't know, because it's a mix.
Speaker 1: It's it's males and female. I can't say it's one
Speaker 1: age group or another, but it's nine percent of the
Speaker 1: time it happens in that dungeon. Now, remind me where
Speaker 1: the dungeons. I think I know where it is. I
Speaker 1: think it's it's downstairs and housing at four in the
Speaker 1: oldest building. Yes, yes, all right, I think Adam and
Speaker 1: I went down there last time we were there. You
Speaker 1: have to walk through the shower room and there's a doorway. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that opens up into that section. Yeah, that's a real
Speaker 1: wild area. We saw some lights down with light anomalies.
Speaker 1: So is that something that people see often? Because I
Speaker 1: don't think they even told us about it. I just
Speaker 1: happened to see it. Yep. They look like little twinkly
Speaker 1: Christmas lights. Yes, I've seen that one other time on
Speaker 1: the USS Salem. But these ones, the ones I saw
Speaker 1: down there. It was almost like a green kind of glowing.
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a firefly, clearly. It was like
Speaker 1: this kind of like green glowing little orb or something.
Speaker 1: And I was like, am I'm seeing things right now?
Speaker 1: Another of the guides. Once in a while, when we
Speaker 1: go down there, it's a dernist thing. And I've even
Speaker 1: talked to eye doctors trying to, you know, figure out
Speaker 1: the physiology of the eyeball or something. But we will
Speaker 1: go down there and and shut out the light, you know,
Speaker 1: pitch black, but we will start seeing this red glow
Speaker 1: and we can't figure out where it's coming from or
Speaker 1: what's causing it. That's bizarre. I haven't experienced that either.
Speaker 1: I feel like the energy at Missouri State is just
Speaker 1: so different, like than what you would experience at most places,
Speaker 1: and you can feel that when you're there. Now, wasn't
Speaker 1: it recently struck by a tornado? Yes? May, it was
Speaker 1: actually the eighth anniversary of the Joplin, Missouri tornado, which
Speaker 1: was horrible and devastating. But yeah, took off the back
Speaker 1: third of the roof of housing unit for which we
Speaker 1: now finally, thankfully have gotten replaced. And she's undercover again
Speaker 1: and everybody's happy. I remember that area being really wild too,
Speaker 1: because you can stand up on the top and just
Speaker 1: kind of look down over the entire space, and it's
Speaker 1: a really great vantage point as an investigator if you're
Speaker 1: looking for movement or a great spot to put up camera.
Speaker 1: So have you been able to reopen it now for
Speaker 1: tours because it wasn't open when we were there filming
Speaker 1: last We're open on the flag walk, which is the
Speaker 1: main walk, and then down to the shower room and
Speaker 1: the dungeon cells, but the upper, second, third, and fourth
Speaker 1: tears we do not have open yet. We've got to
Speaker 1: do quite a lot of clean up up there yet.
Speaker 1: We'll we'll get it done. But it's it's the process.
Speaker 1: It's a testament to you guys, because I know people
Speaker 1: work so hard that you have so many wonderful volunteers,
Speaker 1: and I love that so many of the people involved
Speaker 1: are former employees of the building or or former former
Speaker 1: correctional officers, and it really just kind of goes to
Speaker 1: show like the level of love and that everyone has
Speaker 1: for the history there, which I think is very important
Speaker 1: that people know about when the tornado happened. Did you
Speaker 1: think that that kind of did anything activity or energy
Speaker 1: wise to the buildings. We kind of wondered. We went, oh,
Speaker 1: it was within two or three days I know, of
Speaker 1: the tornado happening. It was of course lockdown. Nobody was
Speaker 1: going in and we were just, of course devastated. You
Speaker 1: just fold our rug out from underneath us, and so
Speaker 1: a couple of us went to the front steps we
Speaker 1: could access those and took a SB seven and we
Speaker 1: were asking that, are you guys okay, everybody's still here.
Speaker 1: We're sorry, we can't get in there. We're going to
Speaker 1: get you know, get in there as soon as we can.
Speaker 1: Is everybody okay? And one thing that came with so
Speaker 1: it's very clear it said windy. With that in mind,
Speaker 1: like the way that you talk to them, in your experience,
Speaker 1: in your opinion, why do you think these spirits are
Speaker 1: remaining there? Of all places? I get asked that on
Speaker 1: the tours, and it's like people don't think about it.
Speaker 1: When you think of a penitentiary, you think, oh, bad place,
Speaker 1: don't want to go there. But one of our famous inmates,
Speaker 1: Sunny Liston, used to chastise other inmates when he would
Speaker 1: hear them, you know, complaining about the situation or their
Speaker 1: conditions or all this stuff, And he said, you guys
Speaker 1: have absolutely nothing to complain about. You have clothes, you
Speaker 1: have shoes, you have a bed to sleep in, you
Speaker 1: get meals, you have a job, you have a roof
Speaker 1: over your head. No, and I think this place was
Speaker 1: just the best home some of these men ever had.
Speaker 1: That makes me sad. Yeah, I have her still worries
Speaker 1: of you know, when people leave or released that there's
Speaker 1: just such this kind of routine and semblance of normalcies.
Speaker 1: What happens when eventually, as they're in there for years,
Speaker 1: and like you said, some of them just come from
Speaker 1: very broken situations and then they're just released into the world,
Speaker 1: and you know, there is not that routine to guide
Speaker 1: them anymore. There are repeat offenders that that get out
Speaker 1: and do something just to get back in because they
Speaker 1: cannot hand a little the outside. Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 1: never thought of it that way. I've also I've always
Speaker 1: wondered too if there were some people that just kind
Speaker 1: of had this self imposed sentence, like they just felt
Speaker 1: as though they hadn't completed their time. And I think
Speaker 1: that's true because you know, we're using the voice box
Speaker 1: or whatever apparatus to get them to speak to us sometimes. Uh,
Speaker 1: that really makes me sad to when you get into
Speaker 1: one of those little conversations with them and it's like, no,
Speaker 1: you know, I can't, I did this, or I hurt
Speaker 1: somebody or something like. You know. Well, I tell people
Speaker 1: all the time when they investigate prisons, in particular, I
Speaker 1: tell them to cast their judgment aside, because you don't
Speaker 1: know who you're talking to. You don't know how they
Speaker 1: got there, why they are there, some of the reasons
Speaker 1: people were incarcerated, you know, especially way back when we're
Speaker 1: not things you would be incarcerated for now. You know,
Speaker 1: we're talking about like, you know, owing two or three
Speaker 1: dollars in taxes or something, you know, and so you
Speaker 1: don't know who you're talking to, how they ended up there,
Speaker 1: why they're there. So I always tell them to start
Speaker 1: their investigations in prisons from a place of compassion and kindness.
Speaker 1: I'm telling about you know, what do they like to eat?
Speaker 1: How do they like their steak? Cook, do they like broccoli? Whatever?
Speaker 1: Other stuff like that. Do not go into a penitentiary
Speaker 1: to investigate and say what do you do to get
Speaker 1: in here? That's none of your business, and you'd have
Speaker 1: been punched in the face at the very least, if
Speaker 1: you were in a reopened a tentury and walked up
Speaker 1: to somebody and asked that you don't do that. No,
Speaker 1: that's very true, you know, and that's great insight for
Speaker 1: people who do who do want to investigate those places.
Speaker 1: I mean, now, if something comes at me and pushes
Speaker 1: me or something, now that's a different story. And you know,
Speaker 1: my mom amy voice is going to come out. I
Speaker 1: had to come out Friday night. Oh what happened? Well,
Speaker 1: it was really interesting. We had about a dozen people.
Speaker 1: It was a private tour, and myself and another guide.
Speaker 1: He suggested we take them down the creepy down three D.
Speaker 1: So we go down there and just get to the
Speaker 1: bottom of the steps and we're sitting in the window sills,
Speaker 1: and he had everybody turn out all their lights, you know,
Speaker 1: just any bare minimum of ambient light that came through.
Speaker 1: It's pretty dark. Yeah, but in that darkness I could
Speaker 1: see in my peripheral vision, I could see three or
Speaker 1: four figures, shadow figures moving between me and the door.
Speaker 1: And then I said, you know, one got a little close,
Speaker 1: and I said, okay, And then a man that was
Speaker 1: standing not far from me. He said, are you saying
Speaker 1: shadows over there? I said yes, thank you, okay, validation.
Speaker 1: It was like I could see their feet and it
Speaker 1: was like at my two o'clock position, and I was like,
Speaker 1: that is so close enough. I said, you stop right there.
Speaker 1: You do not have permission to mess with me. I
Speaker 1: will not tolerate it. You need to back up. Well,
Speaker 1: you got to talk to them like there's someone in
Speaker 1: front of you invading your personal space, you know, like
Speaker 1: a live person. Do you have to create those boundaries?
Speaker 1: So well, I think you've given some great advice to
Speaker 1: investigators today. Now, if people want to visit Missouri State
Speaker 1: investigate support it. What do they need to do? They
Speaker 1: need to go to the website Missouri pen tours dot
Speaker 1: com all spelled out and click on the tours. We
Speaker 1: have history tours during the day, we have the ghost
Speaker 1: tours in the evenings, and uh, we'd love to have you.
Speaker 1: We've had people worldwide and we love meeting new people
Speaker 1: and introducing them to our favorite place. Well, I really
Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. And
Speaker 1: as I've said to everyone, please go support this wonderful place.
Speaker 1: It's a really important piece of history, and it just
Speaker 1: happens to be amazingly haunted as well. So thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Diane. I appreciate it. Thank you, am I
Speaker 1: appreciate it. Of course, I've probably investigated Missouri State Penitentiary
Speaker 1: half a dozen times at this point. It never disappoints
Speaker 1: when it comes to activity, but I've definitely moved from
Speaker 1: viewing it as a place to get scared and more
Speaker 1: of a place to interact with the spirits with a
Speaker 1: goal in mind. That goal to find out who they are, specifically,
Speaker 1: why they're there, and what, if anything, we can do
Speaker 1: for them. It's an important place historically and paranormal wise,
Speaker 1: and something tells me that in the spirit world those
Speaker 1: seemingly quiet cellblocks are just as busy and bustling as
Speaker 1: they were when it was an operation. I highly recommend
Speaker 1: seeing it for yourself, and I won't even judge you
Speaker 1: if you choose to do a daytime tour instead of
Speaker 1: visiting after the sun goes down. I'm Amy Bruney and
Speaker 1: this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is a production of
Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mank.
Speaker 1: Haunted Road is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney,
Speaker 1: additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn. The show is edited and
Speaker 1: produced by rema El Kali and supervising producer Josh Thing,
Speaker 1: and executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows. H