1 00:00:01,160 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to Haunted Road, a production of I Heart Radio 2 00:00:04,600 --> 00:00:08,880 Speaker 1: and Grim and Mild from Aaron Minky Listener. Discretion is advised. 3 00:00:16,840 --> 00:00:20,119 Speaker 1: From the outside, this penitentiary looked like the model of 4 00:00:20,239 --> 00:00:24,240 Speaker 1: capital punishment. Its inmates powered factories that made the prison 5 00:00:24,280 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: a center of industry, manufacturing goods that were shipped across 6 00:00:28,080 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: the country in a system that penal experts hailed as 7 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:34,160 Speaker 1: a master class in efficiency and an example for other 8 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 1: prisons to follow. But on the inside, inmates told a 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: different story, one of severe punishments for infractions as minimal 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: as playing cards in their cells, or, in some instances, 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,840 Speaker 1: for just speaking at all. Prisoners were immersed in ice 12 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:51,159 Speaker 1: baths to which nausea inducing chemicals had been added when 13 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: they were suspected of faking illness. The beatings continued long 14 00:00:55,440 --> 00:00:58,280 Speaker 1: after the prison claimed to have phased out corporal punishment, 15 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 1: but when it eventually did, the alternatives were no better. 16 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: Guards shifted their disciplinary methods to psychological ones, leaning on 17 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: tactics like degradation, humiliation, and isolation to enforce penalties on inmates. 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,000 Speaker 1: Many were confined to the whole the medieval style dungeon 19 00:01:16,040 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: that served as the prisons solitary confinement. Some were kept 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,120 Speaker 1: alone in the dark for ages. In one case, a 21 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,480 Speaker 1: man was kept alone in the hole for twelve long years. 22 00:01:26,120 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: It's no wonder that stories of ghosts and hauntings abound here, 23 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: a place that you can even visit yourself. So let's 24 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: head to Jefferson City, Missouri and visit the Bloodiest forty 25 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: seven acres in America, otherwise known as Missouri State Penitentiary. 26 00:01:42,480 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: I'm Amy Brunei and welcome to Haunted Road. Missouri State 27 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 1: Penitentiary was decommissioned in two thousand four after nearly one 28 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:12,040 Speaker 1: hundred seventy years of brutal incarceration, but the stories of 29 00:02:12,080 --> 00:02:15,400 Speaker 1: harsh punishments and austere living conditions still live on in 30 00:02:15,440 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: the buildings today, in the people who come to visit 31 00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: the prison, and in the spirits who have stayed behind, 32 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: replaying their years at what is sometimes called the Bloodiest 33 00:02:24,200 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: forty seven acres in America, over and over into infinity. 34 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 1: The first state penal institution west of the Mississippi, Missouri 35 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: State Penitentiary, opened in eighteen thirty six. It's located in 36 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,320 Speaker 1: Jefferson City, today, a city of about forty thousand midway 37 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 1: between Kansas City and St. Louis on the Missouri River. 38 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 1: Jeff City, as it's known to locals, was originally intended 39 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:50,800 Speaker 1: to be Missouri's capital as early back as eighteen twenty one. 40 00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,720 Speaker 1: According to the City of Jefferson's historical records. The town 41 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 1: was incorporated in eighteen twenty five, and the General Assembly 42 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 1: moved there in eighteen twenty six. At that time, the 43 00:03:01,360 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 1: town had thirty one families, a general store, a hotel, 44 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: and a few other buildings. Other cities resented Jefferson's status 45 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:11,640 Speaker 1: and attempted to have the capital moved, Aiming to cement 46 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 1: its status as Missouri's capital. Governor John Miller proposed the 47 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: city as the site for a new state penitentiary in 48 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:21,919 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty two. This would become the Missouri State Penitentiary. 49 00:03:22,320 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: Its first inmate, Wilson Eisen, was sentenced to over two 50 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: years for stealing a watch valued at thirty nine dollars 51 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:33,840 Speaker 1: about eight hundred thirty dollars today. Initially, the prison only 52 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 1: housed male inmates, but began incarcerating women in eighteen forty two. 53 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 1: Even outside the prison walls, the city has seen its 54 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,320 Speaker 1: share of strife over the years. In eighteen forty nine, 55 00:03:44,360 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: a ship carrying a mixture of Mormon migrants and gold 56 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 1: rush hopefuls landed in Jefferson City. Some of the passengers 57 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: were infected with cholera, and the resulting outbreak in the 58 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: city lasted two long years. In eighteen fifty five, residents 59 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: waited to welcome the first train on the new cific 60 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: railroad line from St. Louis into Jefferson City, but it 61 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: never arrived. A bridge collapse had caused a wreck over 62 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: the Gasconade River that killed around thirty people and injured 63 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:13,440 Speaker 1: dozens more. During the Civil War, the state Assembly voted 64 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: to remain in the Union, but Governor Jackson refused to 65 00:04:16,360 --> 00:04:19,719 Speaker 1: recognize federal authority and also refused to send troops to 66 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:22,560 Speaker 1: fight for the Union Army, instead raising a militia to 67 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:26,039 Speaker 1: join the Confederate Army. In response, Union troops took over 68 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: the city After the war ended, Missouri State Penitentiary built 69 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: housing unit for commonly known as a hall, for post 70 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:36,320 Speaker 1: Civil War criminals who spent their days quarrying stone. The 71 00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:41,719 Speaker 1: prison eventually expanded its industrial work, manufacturing products with prison labor. 72 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 1: By eighty five, according to sources, it housed six shoe factories, 73 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 1: clothing broom and twine factories, and the largest saddletree factory 74 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:54,479 Speaker 1: in the world. Located on a bluff overlooking the Missouri River, 75 00:04:54,600 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary is a collection of buildings ringed with 76 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: a limestone wall two and a half feet thick in 77 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: parts as high as thirty feets hall, dotted with eleven 78 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: guard towers. The wall itself is one of the oldest 79 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:10,680 Speaker 1: architectural structures in the city, with sections still standing today 80 00:05:10,680 --> 00:05:13,599 Speaker 1: that were built between eighteen thirty three and eighteen thirty 81 00:05:13,640 --> 00:05:17,200 Speaker 1: five before the prison opened. Although some of the buildings 82 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,640 Speaker 1: were torn down when the prison was decommissioned in two 83 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: thousand four, including the chapel and warehouses, many remain, including 84 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: multiple housing units and factories, as well as the gas chamber. 85 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 1: Six of the prison cells date back to the eighteen forties. 86 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,719 Speaker 1: The oldest remaining building, a hall, was built in eighteen 87 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: sixty eight in the high Victorian Gothic style. The castle 88 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: like four story building has cells that overlook a central hall, 89 00:05:41,960 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: the isolation cells where prisoners were kept in solitary confinement 90 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: or in the basement of that building. Housing Unit one, 91 00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,080 Speaker 1: built in nineteen o five, was the female department of 92 00:05:51,080 --> 00:05:54,159 Speaker 1: the prison. Above one of the arches leading inside was 93 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: the biblical quote, he who converteth a center from the 94 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,000 Speaker 1: error of his way, shall save a soul from death. 95 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: Additional housing units were built about a decade later, and 96 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,599 Speaker 1: the prison added a gas chamber in nineteen thirty seven. 97 00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: Until that point, all of the executions, and there were many, 98 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: were public hangings, with countless citizens of Jefferson City watching 99 00:06:14,839 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 1: the building housing The gas chamber has two viewing rooms 100 00:06:17,720 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: and two cells. Inside the white walled gas chambers, steel 101 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: execution chairs are still in place to this day. Also 102 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: still on the property the J. S. Sullivan Saddletree Factory Building, 103 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:32,359 Speaker 1: constructed in eighteen ninety two, Primeers Boot and Shoe Factory 104 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:34,919 Speaker 1: originally built around eighteen eighty nine, which was burned in 105 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifty four prison riots and rebuilt in the 106 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, and the hobby Craft building, completed in nineteen 107 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 1: sixty eight. Though the prisoners were employed in those factories, 108 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: they were still subject to harsh treatment from guards, both 109 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:51,200 Speaker 1: in the factories and in the prison buildings themselves. Corporal 110 00:06:51,240 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: punishment was rampant in the prisons earlier days. Inmates were 111 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: routinely flogged for offenses such as playing cards in their 112 00:06:58,120 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: cells and talking in the prisons op according to meticulous 113 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: logs from the eighteen eighties. According to an article in 114 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:08,440 Speaker 1: the St. Louis Post Dispatch, four prisoners who had tools 115 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: in their cells and tried to escape got the following punishment. 116 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: One half of head shaved and leg irons. Conditions were 117 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: bad even for those who weren't cop breaking the rules. 118 00:07:18,840 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: By the late eighteen hundreds, according to the Penitentiaries Historical Timeline, 119 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: it was considered one of the most efficient prisons in 120 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: the country, housing and feeding inmates for eleven cents per day. 121 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 1: That's about three dollars and fifty cents in today's dollars. 122 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:35,640 Speaker 1: By contrast, today the cost of incarceration in America is 123 00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:40,160 Speaker 1: about one eight dollars per prisoner per day. However, efficiency 124 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: in the Missouri State Penitentiary did not equal safety. Violence 125 00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: persisted within the walls, both from inmates and from guards. 126 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: In one nineteen o five incident, an inmate, a guard, 127 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 1: and a gatekeeper were killed and three more men were 128 00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: wounded during an escape attempt in which four prisoners attempted 129 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: to use nitroglycerin to destroy the prisons iron Gates. Mistreatment 130 00:08:00,880 --> 00:08:04,120 Speaker 1: from the guards wasn't just common, it was encouraged by 131 00:08:04,160 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: prison officials. In a nineteen oh six opinion piece in 132 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: the Kentucky Post and Time, star warden Matt W. Hall 133 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,840 Speaker 1: called for hanging anyone who had committed a wilful and 134 00:08:14,880 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: deliberate murder and declared, I would amend the Constitution of 135 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: the United States and unsexed every man or woman as 136 00:08:22,880 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: soon as the fact was established that he or she 137 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: was a habitual criminal, I would let the second offense 138 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: of larceny established the fact. The prison claimed to have 139 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: ended floggings and other corporal punishments around the turn of 140 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:39,000 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, instead choosing to punish inmates by placing 141 00:08:39,040 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: them in the hole. The dungeon like basement isolation cells 142 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: where the worst offenders were kept, including inmates on death row. 143 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 1: These six foot by five foot cells were tiny and 144 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: dark and could house prisoners for a very long time. 145 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:54,520 Speaker 1: Some inmates spent more than a decade in the whole. 146 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: One man JB. Firebug Johnson spent twelve of his eighteen 147 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: years in the penitent jury in solitary. Convicted of robbery, 148 00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: he attacked several guards and set the prisons harness shop 149 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:08,720 Speaker 1: ablaze in eighteen eighty three, a fire which destroyed three 150 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:12,480 Speaker 1: buildings and left four convicts severely burned. Newspapers of the 151 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,960 Speaker 1: time reported that he spent his days training the cockroaches 152 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: in his cell, as well as learning to read and 153 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: to write. Eventually, he authored a book called Buried Alive 154 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: or Eighteen Years in the Missouri Penitentiary. However, in nineteen thirteen, 155 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: prisoners told The Washington Post that not only did flogging 156 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,160 Speaker 1: persist as a punishment in the institution, but that they 157 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 1: were subjected to being held underwater in ice bats with 158 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: a Nazia causing chemical added if they were thought to 159 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,400 Speaker 1: be faking illness to avoid prison labor. By nineteen thirty two, 160 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary held fifty two hundred inmates, the largest 161 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 1: inmate population in the United States. According to Atlas Obscura, 162 00:09:51,559 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: it was considered one of the most successful prisons in 163 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 1: the country. However, that is a far larger number of 164 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: inmates than the prison was designed to hold, another act 165 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: that speaks to the quality of the living conditions inside 166 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: those walls. Once the gas chamber was installed in nineteen 167 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 1: thirty seven, it was the site of forty executions. The 168 00:10:10,080 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: first men executed in the gas chamber on March third, 169 00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: nineteen thirty eight, where John Brown thirty five and William 170 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 1: Wright thirty two. Brown had been convicted of killing a 171 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: police officer while holding up a bar, and Wright had 172 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: killed an employee in a drug store robbery. At least 173 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: one prisoner executed in the gas chamber, twenty four year 174 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: old Robert West, had helped to corey the stone that 175 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: built it. One man, Claude McGee, was executed in nineteen 176 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: fifty one for a crime committed within the prison. He 177 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:39,840 Speaker 1: had beaten a fellow inmate, John Masson, to death with 178 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:42,280 Speaker 1: a hammer in the prison yard in nineteen forty eight. 179 00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,480 Speaker 1: Only one woman was ever executed at the Missouri State Penitentiary, 180 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: Bonnie B. Hetty, who, along with Carl Austin Hall, kidnapped 181 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 1: and murdered a young boy. They were both executed on 182 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: December eighteenth, nineteen fifty three. Hetty would be the last 183 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 1: woman executed by the federal government until twenty twenty one. 184 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,560 Speaker 1: The last execution at the prison of George tiny Mercer 185 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: was done by lethal injection in nineteen eighty nine. In 186 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty four, a deadly riot shook the prison. At 187 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: the time, the penitentiary held two thousand, five hundred seventy 188 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: five inmates, almost four hundred more than in nineteen thirty two, 189 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: when the prison was already considered to be deeply overcrowded. 190 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: At the time of the riot, many prisoners had grievances, 191 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: according to the St. Louis Post Dispatch, over bad food, 192 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: dirty conditions, and an unforgiving parole board. An inmate later 193 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: said that the cause of the riot was brutality, cruel 194 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: and unusual punishment by the guards, and that the clothes 195 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: they wore were raggedy clothes that didn't fit them, the 196 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,680 Speaker 1: shoes they wore didn't fit them, and you were short 197 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 1: changed on medication. There too, inmates and EHL Lord guards 198 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: to their cell. The overpowered them and stole their keys, 199 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: proceeding to free other inmates from their cells. According to 200 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: a history from the Missouri State Penitentiary, soon a large 201 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: group of inmates was running loose race around the compound 202 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 1: and emptying other cell blocks along their path. One group 203 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: of inmates entered the dining hall, smashing windows and chairs. 204 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: In the prison shops, anything flammable was set a fire 205 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:15,439 Speaker 1: freed inmates didn't just enact revenge on the guards and 206 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: the prison itself, but on fellow incarceories. As violence ran rampant, 207 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: one inmate in solitary confinement, thirty year old Walter Lee Donald, 208 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: was tortured and eventually killed with a sledgehammer by fellow prisoners. 209 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: Donald was incarcerated for first degree robbery and had testified 210 00:12:32,080 --> 00:12:35,240 Speaker 1: against others. Called a stool pigeon, he had been stabbed 211 00:12:35,280 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: while in the general population and was in solitary for 212 00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: his own protection. In an attempt to control the riot, 213 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 1: state troopers responded and opened fire on the prison from 214 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: the administration building with machine guns, killing three more inmates 215 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:52,080 Speaker 1: and injuring nineteen others. Police forces eventually called the riot, 216 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: during which no prisoners escaped. The damage, though was extensive. 217 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: Fire set by inmates destroyed a number of structures and 218 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: foting the prisons recreation building, vocational building, tobacco shop, license 219 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: plate factory, and dining hall, which housed the chapel and 220 00:13:07,440 --> 00:13:10,640 Speaker 1: the prison school. As Mike Lear described in his history 221 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 1: of the riot, the Truman Commission that studied the prison 222 00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: after the September nineteen fifty four riot used the word 223 00:13:16,760 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: deplorable repeatedly in its report on the conditions and state 224 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: of the facility. Despite the riot and the public scrutiny, 225 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: that prison then received nothing inside changed. Seven inmates were 226 00:13:28,240 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: convicted on murder charges, but all of them gave what 227 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: were believed to be coerced confessions a month later. Another 228 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 1: shorter riot occurred in October of that year, during which 229 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: one inmate, year old Joseph our Coffee, was killed by 230 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,839 Speaker 1: corrections officers. A new warden, E. V. Nash, was brought 231 00:13:45,840 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 1: in after the riot, but violence and poor conditions continued 232 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:52,679 Speaker 1: inside the walls. Another wave of violence in nineteen sixty 233 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: four finally prompted an overhaul of the prison when an 234 00:13:55,880 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: administrative review condemned conditions inside. A day after review, on 235 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 1: December eighteenth, nineteen sixty four, Nash shot himself in the 236 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:06,680 Speaker 1: head in a house across the street from the penitentiary 237 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: after returning home from a Department of Corrections Christmas party. 238 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: A new warden and a new state Director of Corrections 239 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,079 Speaker 1: were hired, who saw to it that rehabilitation programs were improved. 240 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: Fresh food was provided, more shower rooms were constructed, and 241 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: recreation facilities including a handball cart and miniature golf course 242 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: were built for the inmates. While conditions did improve over 243 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: the years, one year in the nineteen seventies, the penitentiary 244 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: had thirteen inmate homicides. It said that overall, more than 245 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: two thousand people died inside the walls during the prisons operation. 246 00:14:40,040 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: After operating continuously for over one hundred sixty years, the 247 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: penitentiary closed in two thousand four and inmates were moved 248 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: to the nearby Jefferson City Correctional Center. Famous inmates over 249 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 1: the years include political activists Emma Goldman and Kate O'Hare, 250 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: boxer Sunny Liston Bank, Robbert, Pretty Boy Floyd, and Lee Shelton, 251 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: the inspiration for the folk song stagger. Lee list And 252 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: learned to box while incarcerated there, and his skills led 253 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 1: to him being granted early parole in nineteen fifty two. 254 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: Another prisoner, James Earl Ray, successfully escaped the penitentiary in 255 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:17,040 Speaker 1: a bread truck in nineteen sixty seven. Just under a 256 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,040 Speaker 1: year later, he would go on to assassinate Martin Luther 257 00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: King Jr. An activist for the Socialist Party. O'Hara became 258 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: a prison reformer after her release. She also reported that 259 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: many of the women incarcerated with her in nineteen nineteen 260 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: to nineteen twenty turned to spiritualism. In letters home, O'Hara wrote, 261 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,840 Speaker 1: these poor victims of society feel that God takes no 262 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 1: concern for them, and they are not strong enough to 263 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: stand alone. So they find comfort for their six souls 264 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 1: in the belief that they're dead. Comrades and misery come 265 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: back to care for and protect them. In the weary 266 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,280 Speaker 1: hours after the lights are out. The cell house is 267 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: peopled by many ghosts, but they are all kindly, comfortable, 268 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 1: amiable ghosts who flit about all night on air of 269 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 1: mercy and love. She wasn't the only one talking about 270 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: ghosts inside the penitentiary. Even before the prison closed, guards 271 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: and inmates alike reported paranormal activity. Jamie Rasmussen wrote about 272 00:16:15,240 --> 00:16:18,479 Speaker 1: the hauntings in her book on the Missouri State Penitentiary. 273 00:16:18,680 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 1: When the prison still operated, She wrote, some guards reported 274 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: hearing footsteps after all the prisoners were in their cells. 275 00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: When the guard would turn to look, he would see 276 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:30,040 Speaker 1: a shadowy figure that looked like it was wrapped in 277 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:33,880 Speaker 1: a blanket to keep warm. Others said Firebug Johnson still 278 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: walked the halls. One former guard who began working there 279 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: in nineteen nine, told the News Tribune about an experience 280 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: he had while working in the penitentiary. During a routine 281 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: head count, the guard said he saw an inmate with 282 00:16:46,560 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: long blonde hair and a white T shirt walk out 283 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: a door. Thinking this inmate was trying to escape, the 284 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 1: guard frantically searched the grounds and a parked supply van, 285 00:16:55,000 --> 00:16:57,000 Speaker 1: but there was no sign of the man he had seen. 286 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 1: Then he noticed another inmate watching him. I shut the 287 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: doors and I'm like what, and he goes, you ain't 288 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: going to find that guy. I said, what are you 289 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 1: talking about? He said, I saw him. I said what 290 00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: did he look like? And he said he had long 291 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 1: blonde hair and a white T shirt. He says, wells, 292 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: we ain't got nobody in this building that looks like that. 293 00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 1: And I was just like, whoa, You're right. It felt 294 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: like somebody had just punched me in the chest. According 295 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: to a paranormal history of the prison by Kathy Wiser Alexander, 296 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: throughout the old facilities, people have heard cell doors slamming, 297 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 1: ghostly footsteps, loud banging, shadowy figures, the smell of cigarette smoke, 298 00:17:38,080 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: objects being mysteriously moved around and fast moving entities. They 299 00:17:42,600 --> 00:17:46,199 Speaker 1: also report having felt dread, a sense of sorrow, and 300 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: a feeling of being watched. According to another book about 301 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: hauntings in Missouri, one visitor saw the bloodied face of 302 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: a prisoner looking out from the third tier of cells 303 00:17:55,600 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: and asked to leave the tour. Apparitions of prisoners and 304 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,679 Speaker 1: old fashioned dress, both male and female, have been reported, 305 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 1: as well as sightings of orbs and even of UFOs. 306 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: There have been many accounts of a woman wearing a 307 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: long gray skirt and gray, high collared blouse in the 308 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,119 Speaker 1: women's prison area. Some have claimed to have sensed the 309 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:17,679 Speaker 1: spirits of children and dogs. At least one child was 310 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: present at the prison for a time. According to the St. 311 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:24,879 Speaker 1: Louis Post Dispatch, in a woman named Maddie Scott begged 312 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: a judge at her sentencing not to keep her away 313 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 1: from her four month old daughter. The judge allowed her 314 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,679 Speaker 1: to take her child to the prison. A hall, the 315 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:35,360 Speaker 1: oldest building on the site, is also said to be 316 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: the most haunted. Reports of activity here include visitors being 317 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: touched or scratched by unseen hands, the feeling of someone 318 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: breathing down your neck, disembodied voices, strong smells, shadow figures 319 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 1: walking between cells, apparitions and electronics acting up. In the 320 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,359 Speaker 1: isolation cell where Walter Lee Donald was bludgeoned to death, 321 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:58,879 Speaker 1: Number forty eight, visitors claim to have captured an apparition 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: of a man, as well as having strange feelings. A 323 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: spirit nicknamed fast Jack or occasionally Fast Harry, is said 324 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,960 Speaker 1: to show up in the housing units and control room, 325 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: as well as the tunnels connecting the buildings. Though he 326 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: appears to be solid, even wearing a white lab coat 327 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:18,520 Speaker 1: and carrying a clipboard, he's sometimes seen moving through walls. 328 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 1: Some believe that he once worked in the prisons medical facility, 329 00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,240 Speaker 1: possibly as an inmate whose job was to escort fellow 330 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: prisoners to and from the clinic. According to tour guide 331 00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 1: Mary Lacy, he has been seen by many people, and 332 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:34,240 Speaker 1: the description is always that he is walking quickly down 333 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: a hallway with his back to the person. According to 334 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: Kathy Wiser Alexander's Haunted History of the Prison, at one 335 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: point a tour guide passed through the control center to 336 00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: secure the outer doors, only to return just a few 337 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 1: minutes later to find all the lockers had been opened. 338 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: This antic was attributed to fast Jack. It probably won't 339 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 1: surprise you to learn that the gas chamber is one 340 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 1: of the most haunted places on the grounds. Visitors report 341 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: hearing groans and cries in the spaces, as well as 342 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 1: women's whispers. Some claim that the ghost of Bonnie B. Hetty, 343 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: executed in nineteen fifty three, still lingers in the gas chamber. 344 00:20:09,480 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: Hetty was notoriously talkative until the end, telling the guards 345 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: who were tightening the straps on the gas chamber chair 346 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: what was variously reported as it's all right or it 347 00:20:19,119 --> 00:20:23,120 Speaker 1: is tight and I'm not going anywhere. She also said 348 00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:25,919 Speaker 1: goodbye to the prison guards and asked, hall, are you 349 00:20:25,960 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 1: all right, honey. Reporters noted that the two kept on 350 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: talking to each other even after the door to the 351 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: lethal chamber had been sealed. Paranormal investigator Dan Terry claims 352 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: to have made contact with the spirit of George tiny Mercer, 353 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,199 Speaker 1: the last person to be executed in the gas chamber, 354 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:45,959 Speaker 1: inside the space. To talk more about the hauntings at 355 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: Missouri State Pen, I have Diane Kitchell coming up next. 356 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: She has been a ghost tour guide there for years 357 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: and it's built up quite the rapport with the spirits there. 358 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: She has some downright terrifying experiences to share, so we'll 359 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: get to those after the break. I am now joined 360 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,480 Speaker 1: by Diane Kitchel, who is a ghost tour guide at 361 00:21:16,000 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 1: Missouri State Penitentiary, and I have no doubt she has 362 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: no shortage of stories to tell us. So thanks for 363 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:27,119 Speaker 1: joining us, Diane, thank you for having me. I appreciate 364 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: the APA, of course, you know so I am. I 365 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,680 Speaker 1: have investigated Missouri State Penitentiary probably half a dozen times 366 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:40,120 Speaker 1: over the years, and I have never been in there 367 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 1: and not had some sort of experience. I have experienced shadows, 368 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:50,359 Speaker 1: I have experienced banging sounds, I have experienced the sounds 369 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:54,080 Speaker 1: of doors sliding shut off in the distance. I mean, 370 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: it's just never ending. And so you must have the 371 00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: most fun job ever, the best job on the planet. Indeed, 372 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:07,400 Speaker 1: what would you say, is probably the paranormal report that 373 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,159 Speaker 1: comes out of there more than anything else. Oh, a 374 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: lot of people get their hair touched or pulled, especially 375 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: the pretty young blondes. That happens quite a lot. Um, 376 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 1: we do get scratches on some people saying things out 377 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: of the corner of their eye, good old peripheral vision. 378 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: There's not many places that I go into and I 379 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 1: feel scared or you know, but and I don't feel 380 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: scared at Missouri State, but I definitely do get sometimes 381 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 1: kind of like an anxious feeling or like always looking 382 00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:44,680 Speaker 1: over my shoulder. But also sometimes I just feel sad, 383 00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: like I just feel like sadness. And so it must 384 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,360 Speaker 1: be kind of interesting. I know that during the day 385 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: you guys have historical tours and then at night you 386 00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: have the ghost tours. And so when people do the 387 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,120 Speaker 1: ghost tours, what kind of experiences do they have? Well, 388 00:22:58,359 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: that runs the gamut you've had, you know, everything from 389 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,399 Speaker 1: thinking they herod whispering or maybe got in touch to 390 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: seeing a full blown shadow figure. Are speakers as we 391 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,199 Speaker 1: like to call them, Sometimes they sometimes they like to 392 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: lean out of the cells and just kind of check 393 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: you out and go agreet them again. You know, they 394 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: about back in that what would you say is maybe 395 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:28,600 Speaker 1: the most compelling experience that you've had in Missouri State. 396 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:35,960 Speaker 1: Somebody explained doppel gangers to me because they freaked me out. 397 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:40,040 Speaker 1: Two years ago was the year of the doppel Ganger. 398 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: At MSP. I mean, we've we've gotten them once in 399 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 1: a while. We would hear something mimicking one of us, 400 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:51,680 Speaker 1: or we would, you know, maybe once a year, once 401 00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: every year and a half, we would see a double 402 00:23:55,320 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 1: of someone. But two years ago it was just bananas. 403 00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 1: One guide saw me standing at the back of her 404 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 1: tour texting on my cell phone, and her daughter happened 405 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: to be working the tour as well, so she texted 406 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: her mother, who was working the gift shop, and said, wise, 407 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: Diane on this one's tour, and they go, She's not. 408 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: She's in the lobby starting her tour. That's bizarre. I 409 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:29,560 Speaker 1: have seen them of our police officers. I think they 410 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: mimicked our police officers are security at night more often, 411 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: and my personal theory on it was that they were 412 00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: mimicking them more so because unlike a guide who is 413 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: with one tour the entire night, the security kind of 414 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: pardon the term, floats between tours and they don't have 415 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: to be at a certain place at a certain time, 416 00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 1: and they just freaked me out. You don't know you've 417 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: seen one until you see the real person somewhere where. 418 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: It's absolutely impossible for them to a band when you 419 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: just saw them, you know, over there. That's very strange, 420 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: because I mean, I've heard of doppelgangers and I've experienced 421 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: spirits mimicking like us, like our voices or our equipment, 422 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 1: but I've not heard of it being so prevalent in 423 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: one location. It makes me wonder, like, what's happening with 424 00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,480 Speaker 1: the energy there or what did they discover that they 425 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,920 Speaker 1: could do that made them want to do that. I mean, 426 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:40,880 Speaker 1: that's at such an interesting and really odd report. And 427 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 1: not to mention that how many times did you interact 428 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 1: with a doppelganger and not realize it and think you 429 00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 1: were interacting with that person? Like those are only the 430 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: times you notice, like how long has that been going on? 431 00:25:55,520 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: There is no interaction with a doppel ganger. We have 432 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,399 Speaker 1: seen enough of them to know they've always got a 433 00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: very blank, flat effect. There's no facial expression. Their face 434 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:12,679 Speaker 1: is totally there. It's not weird looking or anything. It 435 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: looks exactly like that person. But they just you know, 436 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: show no no emotion, no anything. And they do seem 437 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,439 Speaker 1: to kind of move a little bit differently. They don't walk, 438 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, with that kind of up and down bob 439 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 1: like human beings do when they really walk. Well that 440 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,679 Speaker 1: is super creepy. Yes, So you're saying that that was 441 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 1: a couple of years ago was happening all the time, 442 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: but now it seems like it's not happening as often. Right, 443 00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: it's died back. But you know, I do like to 444 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:45,919 Speaker 1: tell the stories on my tours. And when you've got, 445 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,639 Speaker 1: you know, well over twenty people, if not over thirty 446 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,120 Speaker 1: people in your tour group, who's to say there isn't 447 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 1: one sitting there listening to the tour because we don't 448 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: all know each other. We never saw each other until 449 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:03,440 Speaker 1: them you walk through the doors. So that's really wild. Well, 450 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: I think I was there. Actually, I feel like I'm 451 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: trying to remember when we were shooting with Ghost Hunters there. 452 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 1: I want to I feel like it was a year ago. 453 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: I don't think it was two years ago, but I 454 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: don't feel like I remember hearing that. It would be funny, though, 455 00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:19,199 Speaker 1: if any of the Ghost Hunters team appeared to me 456 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: as a doppleganger, I just didn't know. Trying to imagine 457 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: I would know instantly because I know them all very well. 458 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: Doppelgangers check. That is really interesting. Now I had a 459 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:34,919 Speaker 1: very nonpair. This is just a story. It's not paranormal, 460 00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: but it did happen to me at Missouri State and 461 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,479 Speaker 1: it's a story that Adam and I tell quite often. 462 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 1: We were filming there, it was like, oh gosh, it 463 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 1: was a summer years ago, and they were doing one 464 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,960 Speaker 1: kind of one of those back of the van scenes, 465 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:51,280 Speaker 1: and Adam and I were not partaking in that conversation, 466 00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:52,760 Speaker 1: so we were just kind of standing off to the 467 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,200 Speaker 1: side and we hear this huge bang in the building 468 00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: behind us, and so we're like, let's go. Like the 469 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: camera crew was busy, so we just grabbed a camera 470 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: and we went in by ourselves with the camera and 471 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 1: we go up the stairs and we're following this sound 472 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 1: and we keep getting closer and closer, and we're hearing 473 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: this like movement and I'm like, gosh, there's someone in here, 474 00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 1: like and we get up to the top. You know. 475 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 1: It's like that first set of stairs that you go 476 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,480 Speaker 1: in and they use that office area a lot now 477 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,600 Speaker 1: for like crafty areas and um snacks and stuff. We 478 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,359 Speaker 1: go past that and there's a garbage can at the 479 00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:28,000 Speaker 1: end of the hallway. We hear this and we we 480 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: get up to it. I'm like, it sounds like it's 481 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 1: coming from the garbage can. And so we get to 482 00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,800 Speaker 1: this can and I shine my flashlight in there, and 483 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,240 Speaker 1: this raccoon that was like easily as big as a 484 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 1: large dog, was not like running away. It literally jumped 485 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,640 Speaker 1: out at us like it was coming for us, like 486 00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: it wanted to eat our We wanted to eat our 487 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 1: faces off. And so Adam and I we sprinted down 488 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:58,959 Speaker 1: that hallway, we jumped, we cleared those stairs like and 489 00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: that thing followed us and then it went up into 490 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: the ceiling. So all night when we would go in 491 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 1: to get crafty in the office there there's those like tiles. 492 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:13,479 Speaker 1: It was just staring at everyone. So whenever people ask me, like, 493 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: what's one of the scariest things that ever happened to 494 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 1: me on an investigation, I tell them about the raccoon 495 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: that wanted to murder us at Missouri State Penitentiary. So 496 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:24,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've encountered those many times. But the other 497 00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 1: thing I encountered, though, that was less murderous but scary, 498 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: was the shadow figures. And they're tall shadow figures. How 499 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,240 Speaker 1: often do you see those? Well, I would thank Missouri 500 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: State Penitentiary is maybe like other haunted places, it's not 501 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, like on a timeline or anything. Sometimes you're 502 00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: in there and it's just quiet as a church and 503 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: then sometimes the activities just off the rails, but shadow figure. 504 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: I know we see them weekly for sure. Yeah, And 505 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:57,959 Speaker 1: like you were saying, you called them peakers, and they 506 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,560 Speaker 1: do that thing where they kind of like looking to 507 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: see who's on patrol or something. I mean, I'm generalizing, 508 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: I'm basing that on what I feel might be happening, 509 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: But like you said, you'll see them kind of look 510 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: down at you down the hallway, and um, I just 511 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: it does seem like they're kind of trying to see 512 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: who's on duty at that moment. And now, what would 513 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: you say is probably the most haunted area where people 514 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: would experience the most activity if they go visit. Oh, well, 515 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: like I said, it can shift anywhere, but in general, 516 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 1: I would say the most reports either come from the 517 00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: dungeon and Housing Unit four or the three D section, 518 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 1: which is administrative segregation below Death Row and Housing Unit three. 519 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 1: Last time we had been there, I do feel like 520 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,640 Speaker 1: they had unearthed some very old cells. Have you had 521 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: any activity around those or did anything pick up when 522 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: they have dug those out? I think it might have 523 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: picked up just a little bit when we first opened 524 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 1: them to the public got them all finished, But then 525 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: it's kinda died back down again. Maybe so, I don't know, 526 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: maybe they welcomed the new guys in and yeah, I 527 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: mean it is really strange because they're just they were 528 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,719 Speaker 1: just there that whole time, and it just kind of 529 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: goes to show how far back the history goes there. 530 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: Now another area that I have a real problem with, 531 00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,560 Speaker 1: and I don't even think I went in there last time, 532 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: because the first time I went in there, I couldn't 533 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,520 Speaker 1: stand it is the gas chamber, and I've distinctly heard 534 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 1: whispers in there, but I don't know if it's just 535 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: the energy of what went on there or what. But 536 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: do you include that in your tour? Do people get 537 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: to go in there? Oh? Yes, Oh yes, that's the 538 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 1: usually the last half hour of the two hour tour 539 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 1: would be going down to the gas chamber. Have you 540 00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: had experiences there? I'm myself really they have not. That's 541 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: always been a very quiet place for me. Now. Wait, 542 00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: I did have one, uh, not very long ago. It 543 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:14,360 Speaker 1: was a private group and they were there were three guys, 544 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 1: two gals, and they were live casting to Facebook and 545 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: we were in the gas chamber and one man was 546 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,680 Speaker 1: sitting in Carl's chair, the other man was sitting in 547 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: Bonnie's chair. Bonnie Brown Hetty and Carl Austin Hall but 548 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: were executed together, and you know, they were kind of 549 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 1: asking Carl and Bonnie related questions and I was just 550 00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: standing there watching and listening. And of course these guys 551 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: were both in the chairs doing the Stes method. I 552 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 1: might have forgot to mention that, but they both both 553 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 1: had on blindfolds and the noise canceling headphones and d 554 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 1: S B seven's and the guy that was sitting in 555 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: Carl's chair just kept kind of making these faces and 556 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: he wasn't, you know, spitting out any words. And finally 557 00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:07,920 Speaker 1: he just said, well, this is me, and he said, 558 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: I'm not hearing a single syllable, but I am just 559 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: getting these waves of emotions. And so the guy next 560 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: to him that was sitting in Bonnie's chair, he'd spit 561 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: out a word, you know, random words, and some of 562 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: the more relevance some weren't. But I'm not that fond 563 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 1: of Bonnie for many reasons, and she probably knows it. 564 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 1: But um, he said something that was very pertinent, something 565 00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: that I had just mentioned in a story to them 566 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: as I was taking them down the hill and I 567 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:46,280 Speaker 1: looked at him. It just came out. I said, oh, 568 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: you bitch, because I knew who was speaking, and his 569 00:33:51,600 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: face turned towards mine. He couldn't see me. His face 570 00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,960 Speaker 1: turned towards me, and he says, I know you. That's 571 00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: one of my favorite methods of communicating is doing that 572 00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: the SS method, the spirit box experiment that we do 573 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,400 Speaker 1: on Kindred a lot, and that's actually really fascinating to 574 00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:16,919 Speaker 1: do it in the gas chamber and have them both 575 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: go under like that. Adam and I've done that a 576 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,719 Speaker 1: few times. It's always very interesting. But that's just concerting. 577 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,479 Speaker 1: It's bizarre that she knows you that. Well, oh well, 578 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: we call the guys are co workers because we're in 579 00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:29,839 Speaker 1: there all the time, you know. We we do treat 580 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:32,760 Speaker 1: them with respect that that people probably think I'm nuts, 581 00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,760 Speaker 1: But you know, when I go in there and unlock, 582 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,359 Speaker 1: and I'm the first one on the property and I'm 583 00:34:38,440 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: unlocking buildings, I'll open the door and say, hey, fellas, 584 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 1: good evening. You know we're going to have so many 585 00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,239 Speaker 1: tours through or tonight and be out of your hair 586 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 1: at this time of day. And I mean that's smart 587 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,440 Speaker 1: because you want to set the expectation, so they know, 588 00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,799 Speaker 1: because they could get more volatile if you don't, you know, 589 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 1: give them those expectations as you begin. And you know, 590 00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 1: speaking of that, you said that sometimes people get scratched. 591 00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 1: What leads to that? Why do you think certain people 592 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:09,800 Speaker 1: get scratched there? I really don't know, because it's a mix. 593 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: It's it's males and female. I can't say it's one 594 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: age group or another, but it's nine percent of the 595 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: time it happens in that dungeon. Now, remind me where 596 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:24,960 Speaker 1: the dungeons. I think I know where it is. I 597 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: think it's it's downstairs and housing at four in the 598 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:32,560 Speaker 1: oldest building. Yes, yes, all right, I think Adam and 599 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:34,560 Speaker 1: I went down there last time we were there. You 600 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: have to walk through the shower room and there's a doorway. Yeah, 601 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 1: that opens up into that section. Yeah, that's a real 602 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:47,080 Speaker 1: wild area. We saw some lights down with light anomalies. 603 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: So is that something that people see often? Because I 604 00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: don't think they even told us about it. I just 605 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,080 Speaker 1: happened to see it. Yep. They look like little twinkly 606 00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:57,360 Speaker 1: Christmas lights. Yes, I've seen that one other time on 607 00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: the USS Salem. But these ones, the ones I saw 608 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: down there. It was almost like a green kind of glowing. 609 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a firefly, clearly. It was like 610 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: this kind of like green glowing little orb or something. 611 00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,759 Speaker 1: And I was like, am I'm seeing things right now? 612 00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: Another of the guides. Once in a while, when we 613 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,640 Speaker 1: go down there, it's a dernist thing. And I've even 614 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,439 Speaker 1: talked to eye doctors trying to, you know, figure out 615 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: the physiology of the eyeball or something. But we will 616 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,640 Speaker 1: go down there and and shut out the light, you know, 617 00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,720 Speaker 1: pitch black, but we will start seeing this red glow 618 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,799 Speaker 1: and we can't figure out where it's coming from or 619 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: what's causing it. That's bizarre. I haven't experienced that either. 620 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: I feel like the energy at Missouri State is just 621 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,800 Speaker 1: so different, like than what you would experience at most places, 622 00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 1: and you can feel that when you're there. Now, wasn't 623 00:36:46,560 --> 00:36:52,200 Speaker 1: it recently struck by a tornado? Yes? May, it was 624 00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,560 Speaker 1: actually the eighth anniversary of the Joplin, Missouri tornado, which 625 00:36:56,640 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: was horrible and devastating. But yeah, took off the back 626 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: third of the roof of housing unit for which we 627 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:08,200 Speaker 1: now finally, thankfully have gotten replaced. And she's undercover again 628 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 1: and everybody's happy. I remember that area being really wild too, 629 00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: because you can stand up on the top and just 630 00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: kind of look down over the entire space, and it's 631 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,640 Speaker 1: a really great vantage point as an investigator if you're 632 00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: looking for movement or a great spot to put up camera. 633 00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: So have you been able to reopen it now for 634 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,640 Speaker 1: tours because it wasn't open when we were there filming 635 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:33,799 Speaker 1: last We're open on the flag walk, which is the 636 00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: main walk, and then down to the shower room and 637 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,720 Speaker 1: the dungeon cells, but the upper, second, third, and fourth 638 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 1: tears we do not have open yet. We've got to 639 00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,879 Speaker 1: do quite a lot of clean up up there yet. 640 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 1: We'll we'll get it done. But it's it's the process. 641 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,560 Speaker 1: It's a testament to you guys, because I know people 642 00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: work so hard that you have so many wonderful volunteers, 643 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,840 Speaker 1: and I love that so many of the people involved 644 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:03,000 Speaker 1: are former employees of the building or or former former 645 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:07,000 Speaker 1: correctional officers, and it really just kind of goes to 646 00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: show like the level of love and that everyone has 647 00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 1: for the history there, which I think is very important 648 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: that people know about when the tornado happened. Did you 649 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,720 Speaker 1: think that that kind of did anything activity or energy 650 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,200 Speaker 1: wise to the buildings. We kind of wondered. We went, oh, 651 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: it was within two or three days I know, of 652 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:30,160 Speaker 1: the tornado happening. It was of course lockdown. Nobody was 653 00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 1: going in and we were just, of course devastated. You 654 00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:36,920 Speaker 1: just fold our rug out from underneath us, and so 655 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: a couple of us went to the front steps we 656 00:38:40,640 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 1: could access those and took a SB seven and we 657 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 1: were asking that, are you guys okay, everybody's still here. 658 00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: We're sorry, we can't get in there. We're going to 659 00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,319 Speaker 1: get you know, get in there as soon as we can. 660 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,480 Speaker 1: Is everybody okay? And one thing that came with so 661 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: it's very clear it said windy. With that in mind, 662 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: like the way that you talk to them, in your experience, 663 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: in your opinion, why do you think these spirits are 664 00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 1: remaining there? Of all places? I get asked that on 665 00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 1: the tours, and it's like people don't think about it. 666 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:22,359 Speaker 1: When you think of a penitentiary, you think, oh, bad place, 667 00:39:22,440 --> 00:39:26,120 Speaker 1: don't want to go there. But one of our famous inmates, 668 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:31,320 Speaker 1: Sunny Liston, used to chastise other inmates when he would 669 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,759 Speaker 1: hear them, you know, complaining about the situation or their 670 00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,240 Speaker 1: conditions or all this stuff, And he said, you guys 671 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: have absolutely nothing to complain about. You have clothes, you 672 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,120 Speaker 1: have shoes, you have a bed to sleep in, you 673 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,400 Speaker 1: get meals, you have a job, you have a roof 674 00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:52,880 Speaker 1: over your head. No, and I think this place was 675 00:39:53,000 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: just the best home some of these men ever had. 676 00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,360 Speaker 1: That makes me sad. Yeah, I have her still worries 677 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:05,960 Speaker 1: of you know, when people leave or released that there's 678 00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:10,000 Speaker 1: just such this kind of routine and semblance of normalcies. 679 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:13,280 Speaker 1: What happens when eventually, as they're in there for years, 680 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: and like you said, some of them just come from 681 00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:19,360 Speaker 1: very broken situations and then they're just released into the world, 682 00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 1: and you know, there is not that routine to guide 683 00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:27,160 Speaker 1: them anymore. There are repeat offenders that that get out 684 00:40:27,200 --> 00:40:30,359 Speaker 1: and do something just to get back in because they 685 00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:33,320 Speaker 1: cannot hand a little the outside. Yeah, I mean I 686 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,680 Speaker 1: never thought of it that way. I've also I've always 687 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: wondered too if there were some people that just kind 688 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 1: of had this self imposed sentence, like they just felt 689 00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 1: as though they hadn't completed their time. And I think 690 00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: that's true because you know, we're using the voice box 691 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:54,279 Speaker 1: or whatever apparatus to get them to speak to us sometimes. Uh, 692 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,799 Speaker 1: that really makes me sad to when you get into 693 00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 1: one of those little conversations with them and it's like, no, 694 00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 1: you know, I can't, I did this, or I hurt 695 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,479 Speaker 1: somebody or something like. You know. Well, I tell people 696 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: all the time when they investigate prisons, in particular, I 697 00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: tell them to cast their judgment aside, because you don't 698 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:16,040 Speaker 1: know who you're talking to. You don't know how they 699 00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:18,560 Speaker 1: got there, why they are there, some of the reasons 700 00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 1: people were incarcerated, you know, especially way back when we're 701 00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: not things you would be incarcerated for now. You know, 702 00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,759 Speaker 1: we're talking about like, you know, owing two or three 703 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:29,840 Speaker 1: dollars in taxes or something, you know, and so you 704 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,120 Speaker 1: don't know who you're talking to, how they ended up there, 705 00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: why they're there. So I always tell them to start 706 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:40,640 Speaker 1: their investigations in prisons from a place of compassion and kindness. 707 00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm telling about you know, what do they like to eat? 708 00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:47,440 Speaker 1: How do they like their steak? Cook, do they like broccoli? Whatever? 709 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,440 Speaker 1: Other stuff like that. Do not go into a penitentiary 710 00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: to investigate and say what do you do to get 711 00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:56,680 Speaker 1: in here? That's none of your business, and you'd have 712 00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: been punched in the face at the very least, if 713 00:41:59,360 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: you were in a reopened a tentury and walked up 714 00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: to somebody and asked that you don't do that. No, 715 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,880 Speaker 1: that's very true, you know, and that's great insight for 716 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: people who do who do want to investigate those places. 717 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,280 Speaker 1: I mean, now, if something comes at me and pushes 718 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:15,920 Speaker 1: me or something, now that's a different story. And you know, 719 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,800 Speaker 1: my mom amy voice is going to come out. I 720 00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: had to come out Friday night. Oh what happened? Well, 721 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,000 Speaker 1: it was really interesting. We had about a dozen people. 722 00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: It was a private tour, and myself and another guide. 723 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,239 Speaker 1: He suggested we take them down the creepy down three D. 724 00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: So we go down there and just get to the 725 00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,520 Speaker 1: bottom of the steps and we're sitting in the window sills, 726 00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:42,640 Speaker 1: and he had everybody turn out all their lights, you know, 727 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,719 Speaker 1: just any bare minimum of ambient light that came through. 728 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,640 Speaker 1: It's pretty dark. Yeah, but in that darkness I could 729 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: see in my peripheral vision, I could see three or 730 00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: four figures, shadow figures moving between me and the door. 731 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:02,600 Speaker 1: And then I said, you know, one got a little close, 732 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,640 Speaker 1: and I said, okay, And then a man that was 733 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,919 Speaker 1: standing not far from me. He said, are you saying 734 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: shadows over there? I said yes, thank you, okay, validation. 735 00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,320 Speaker 1: It was like I could see their feet and it 736 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: was like at my two o'clock position, and I was like, 737 00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,759 Speaker 1: that is so close enough. I said, you stop right there. 738 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:22,759 Speaker 1: You do not have permission to mess with me. I 739 00:43:22,920 --> 00:43:25,560 Speaker 1: will not tolerate it. You need to back up. Well, 740 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,239 Speaker 1: you got to talk to them like there's someone in 741 00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:29,719 Speaker 1: front of you invading your personal space, you know, like 742 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: a live person. Do you have to create those boundaries? 743 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,600 Speaker 1: So well, I think you've given some great advice to 744 00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,040 Speaker 1: investigators today. Now, if people want to visit Missouri State 745 00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,920 Speaker 1: investigate support it. What do they need to do? They 746 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:48,879 Speaker 1: need to go to the website Missouri pen tours dot 747 00:43:48,960 --> 00:43:53,320 Speaker 1: com all spelled out and click on the tours. We 748 00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: have history tours during the day, we have the ghost 749 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,840 Speaker 1: tours in the evenings, and uh, we'd love to have you. 750 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,440 Speaker 1: We've had people worldwide and we love meeting new people 751 00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: and introducing them to our favorite place. Well, I really 752 00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:10,279 Speaker 1: appreciate you taking the time to chat with me. And 753 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: as I've said to everyone, please go support this wonderful place. 754 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 1: It's a really important piece of history, and it just 755 00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:22,000 Speaker 1: happens to be amazingly haunted as well. So thank you 756 00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: so much, Diane. I appreciate it. Thank you, am I 757 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:39,279 Speaker 1: appreciate it. Of course, I've probably investigated Missouri State Penitentiary 758 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,560 Speaker 1: half a dozen times at this point. It never disappoints 759 00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:45,799 Speaker 1: when it comes to activity, but I've definitely moved from 760 00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:48,480 Speaker 1: viewing it as a place to get scared and more 761 00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: of a place to interact with the spirits with a 762 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: goal in mind. That goal to find out who they are, specifically, 763 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,200 Speaker 1: why they're there, and what, if anything, we can do 764 00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:02,359 Speaker 1: for them. It's an important place historically and paranormal wise, 765 00:45:02,560 --> 00:45:05,000 Speaker 1: and something tells me that in the spirit world those 766 00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:08,880 Speaker 1: seemingly quiet cellblocks are just as busy and bustling as 767 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: they were when it was an operation. I highly recommend 768 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:14,680 Speaker 1: seeing it for yourself, and I won't even judge you 769 00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,320 Speaker 1: if you choose to do a daytime tour instead of 770 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:21,800 Speaker 1: visiting after the sun goes down. I'm Amy Bruney and 771 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:43,320 Speaker 1: this was Haunted Road. Haunted Road is a production of 772 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:46,160 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio and Grim and Mild from Aaron Mank. 773 00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,080 Speaker 1: Haunted Road is hosted and written by me Amy Bruney, 774 00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,120 Speaker 1: additional research by Taylor Haggerdorn. The show is edited and 775 00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,040 Speaker 1: produced by rema El Kali and supervising producer Josh Thing, 776 00:45:58,239 --> 00:46:02,240 Speaker 1: and executive producers Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick. 777 00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:05,239 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I 778 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,600 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 779 00:46:08,719 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 1: your favorite shows. H