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Speaker 1: Buddy Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan. I'm a child in

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Speaker 1: the sixties. I say that proudly, you know, and I

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Speaker 1: mean a child. I was spent my entire developmental childhood

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Speaker 1: in the sixties, born in sixties, you know, Saturday Morning cartoons,

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Speaker 1: all those sorts of things that we did back then

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Speaker 1: that you know, really brought us joy. But I watched

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Speaker 1: a lot of TV when I was a kid. I'd

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Speaker 1: watch Wagon Train. One of my favorite lines in any

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Speaker 1: movie is stand by Me, where the boys are sitting

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Speaker 1: around the campfire and they said, they make this observation.

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Speaker 1: They said, do you ever notice with the show wagon

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Speaker 1: Train they never seemed to get in where? And that

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Speaker 1: always struck me as it's quite quite funny. But by far,

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Speaker 1: my favorite night of the week was Thursday nights. And

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Speaker 1: the reason is is that that is the night that

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Speaker 1: gun Smoke came on. And I loved gun Smoke, all

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Speaker 1: of the characters, James Arnest playing Matt Dillon, and you know,

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Speaker 1: you got Festus's Kitty and Doc and Newly and all

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Speaker 1: those all those characters, you know, And so I just

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Speaker 1: I loved I loved Westerns, and I grew up around horses,

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Speaker 1: my grandpa raised them and mules, and I always envisioned

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Speaker 1: myself as a cowboy. But you know, us make believe,

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Speaker 1: that is make believe. It's it's a weird thing I

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Speaker 1: think when our make believe world is intruded upon by

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Speaker 1: sometimes the harsh reality of life and death. Today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the movie Rust. We're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about the fact that Alec Baldwin has now been

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Speaker 1: charged in the case involving one of the crew members

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Speaker 1: that wound up dead. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this

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Speaker 1: is body bags.

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Speaker 2: Okay, here we go, Here we go, is right, Joe.

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Speaker 2: Alec Baldwin charged again with involuntary manslaughter. It all goes

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Speaker 2: back to the fatal shooting on the Rust movie set

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Speaker 2: happened in New Mexico. Alec Baldwin was charged last year

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Speaker 2: for involuntary manslaughter, but those charges were dropped after three months.

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Speaker 2: This time, he's been indicted by a New Mexico grand jury. Now,

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Speaker 2: Baldwin was holding a prop gun in twenty twenty one

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Speaker 2: on the set of the Western movie Rust when it discharged.

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Speaker 2: Cinematographer Helena Hutchins was killed and director Joel Susa was

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Speaker 2: injured by that same bullet. Baldimam maintains he didn't know

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Speaker 2: the gun contained a live bullet, and he has claimed

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Speaker 2: over and over again that he did not pull the trigger.

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Speaker 2: The charge here is involuntary manslaughter, and if convicted, Alec

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Speaker 2: Baldwin could be sentenced for up to eighteen months in prison.

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Speaker 2: I know you were a fan, Joe of Western's growing

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Speaker 2: up because you mentioned gun Smoke.

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Speaker 1: I like gun Smoke. However, my second favorite Western, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of quirky. From the sixties. I loved Wild

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Speaker 1: Wild West.

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Speaker 2: Who could who didn't love Wild Wild West?

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Speaker 1: Which?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Robert Robert Conrad, Robert Conrad.

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Speaker 1: We'll go through all the Conrad. Yeah, we'll get to

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Speaker 1: you know who I really liked. I liked a sidekick

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Speaker 1: too because he was.

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Speaker 2: A sid was Artemis Gordon.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Artemis Gordon. And they had the train that they'd

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Speaker 1: ride around on. They worked for the Secret Service and

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Speaker 1: President Grant and it was just a cool thing. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, I try to watch it now and it's

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Speaker 1: it's kind of hokey. I love the opening though, you know,

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Speaker 1: the cartoonish opening. Yes, yeah, what what was your favorite Western? When? When? When?

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Speaker 1: You were growing up.

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Speaker 2: You know what you're gonna laugh. I didn't. You were

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Speaker 2: talking about gun Smoke. I've never actually watched an episode

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Speaker 2: of gun Smoke or Bonanza or any of them, but

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Speaker 2: I do know that Burr Reynolds spent two years on Gunsmoke,

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Speaker 2: as he did Clint Asper. You know, he was there

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Speaker 2: to replace the original. You know, there's Festest, but before Festest,

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Speaker 2: there was another guy on there that I guess was

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Speaker 2: played by Dennis Weaver. Yeah, and chester Chester there you go,

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Speaker 2: you know, and Dennis. But I remember Dennis Weaver as McLeod.

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Speaker 2: So that's about as close as I'll get to a Western.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. Also another good movie, uh, Duel with

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Speaker 1: Uh with Dennis Weaver in it, probably one of the

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Speaker 1: and I think that's.

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Speaker 2: Spills very corrected, you know.

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Speaker 1: Terrifying movie, absolutely terror and that takes place in the West.

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Speaker 1: It's just kind of of a modern day.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the deck on semi truck chasing, Oh boy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Still I'm still haunted by that that that movie

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Speaker 1: actually traumatized me as a child. Yeah, it was terrifying

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Speaker 1: to me. I mean really it really was. But you know,

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Speaker 1: who who in the world walks onto a movie set

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Speaker 1: and in this world that's very peculiar anyway, and doesn't

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Speaker 1: expect to walk back off of the set. And it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a striking thing, it truly is.

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Speaker 2: We know the person we're talking about, the victim here

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Speaker 2: is Helena Hutchins. She was a director of photography on

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Speaker 2: the movie Rust and she's the victim. She was the

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Speaker 2: person that was shot by Alec Baldwin. Alec Baldwin, there's

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Speaker 2: ever since it happened, Since the shooting occurred, there have

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Speaker 2: been a number of stories about what was taking place

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Speaker 2: on the set. There is the armorer, which I didn't

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Speaker 2: know that was a term, Okay, I learned it in

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Speaker 2: cover the story. But the armorer is the person responsible

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Speaker 2: for making sure the guns are taken care of properly.

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Speaker 2: And in this particular case, you had a rookie armorer,

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Speaker 2: her father, a well known experienced armorer on sets all

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Speaker 2: over the place, but not Hannah Gutiera is read. But

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Speaker 2: it was Alec Baldwin, who still claims to this day

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Speaker 2: he did not pull the trigger. For those of you

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Speaker 2: who know anything about guns, rare is the case where

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Speaker 2: a gun will fire without the trigger being pulled. But

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Speaker 2: that's what he claims that's.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons if you're when you're being taught,

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Speaker 1: and civilians get taught this too. But I can tell

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Speaker 1: you from my background, if you're taught in the military

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Speaker 1: or if you're taught in law enforcement, if you carry

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Speaker 1: a weapon, you keep your finger off of trigger until

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Speaker 1: you're ready to engage target.

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Speaker 2: That's why there's a guard the trigger guard.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 2: Is Alec Baldwin being charged with involuntary manslaughter because he

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Speaker 2: pulled the trigger? Or is he being charged because because

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Speaker 2: he was an executive producer on the film.

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Speaker 1: I am was the producer of a movie. I was

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Speaker 1: an associate producer. So it's a very there's a hierarchy. Uh,

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Speaker 1: if you ever watch credits at movies, there's the role

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Speaker 1: that comes on after and you'll see these weird names.

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Speaker 1: You know, you've got EP, you got producer, You've got

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Speaker 1: assistant or associate producer there, and I think there's even

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Speaker 1: an assistant producer. There's all these sorts of things and

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Speaker 1: they have producer on them. So the question is, you know,

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Speaker 1: people beg the question, what do you produce? Well, the

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Speaker 1: the end game is to you know, get the film

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Speaker 1: and can and get it distributed and all those sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. In my case, I was a producer associate

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Speaker 1: producer on a film called American Outlaws. It's based on

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Speaker 1: the true story of the Dockerty Gang. As a matter

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Speaker 1: of fact, there's a podcast called The Docty Gang and

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Speaker 1: I was a producer on it as well. I went

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Speaker 1: to set, I was on set, and yeah, there were

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Speaker 1: because this movie actually centers around, actually centers around an

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Speaker 1: armed robbery committed by three siblings and they go on

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Speaker 1: the run across the country and it's it was an

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Speaker 1: amazing story, a bizarre story. There were actually weapons on

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Speaker 1: on scene, and there was an armorer there, you know,

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Speaker 1: the the actors. I know that there was an AK

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Speaker 1: forty seven. There was actually a handheld machine pistol and

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Speaker 1: a shotgun. And the actors never handled these weapons without

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Speaker 1: the armorer being at their side. And when they were

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Speaker 1: done with these weapons, Dave, guess what they would do

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Speaker 1: with them. They would check them, And I say they

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Speaker 1: the armorer would check them and he had an assistant.

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Speaker 1: They would inspect them, they'd crack them open if there

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Speaker 1: was any they'd take out the magazines. They checked, they

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Speaker 1: checked the breach everything, and then these weapons were taken in,

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Speaker 1: locked down, and this this thing went off like clockwork, dude,

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Speaker 1: I mean you could. And having not been on a

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Speaker 1: movie set like this, I've been in you know, studios,

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Speaker 1: film and shows for you know, various networks and all

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Speaker 1: that stuff, but I've never been on a movie set.

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Speaker 1: It was a completely different world. And it is like

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Speaker 1: a choreographed dance. But you know, at a certain point

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Speaker 1: in time, if you're the boss and associate producer is

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Speaker 1: nowhere near the altitude of an EP. The executive producer

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Speaker 1: rules the roost. And if you are the executive producer

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Speaker 1: on a movie, uh, in the words of you know,

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Speaker 1: of Harry Truman, the buck stops here. You know, it's

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Speaker 1: it's on you. So, in answer to your question, why

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Speaker 1: is he being charged? Is he being charged because in

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Speaker 1: his role as an actor he actuated the firing sequence

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Speaker 1: on this long cult forty five caliber Western pistol single

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Speaker 1: action revolver Or is there more to it? Is it

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Speaker 1: because he was in charge because he vetted, allegedly vetted

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Speaker 1: or his team did everybody that was unseen or on,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the film, and they had his stamp

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Speaker 1: of approval on this that they were the people that

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Speaker 1: were to work there, and I find it very interesting.

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Speaker 1: I think that this armorer was a rookie at this Essentially,

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Speaker 1: even though you descend, hey, look just because you're just

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Speaker 1: because you're your your dad was a you know, a

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Speaker 1: virtuoso on the violin, don't mean you're going to be one.

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Speaker 1: And it doesn't mean you're the top of your game.

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Speaker 1: Now you can learn, you can apprentice and all sorts

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Speaker 1: of things. But this is the first time or one

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Speaker 1: of the early times out of the gate for this individual.

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Speaker 1: It's a very They've made it very complex, the entire investigation,

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Speaker 1: all of the forensics, everything is very complex. But I

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Speaker 1: got to tell you it comes down to one point.

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Speaker 1: You put your finger on the trigger, you pull it.

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Speaker 1: Something's going to do pull it. I found it fascinating, Dave,

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Speaker 1: that the location of the shoot for the movie Rust

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Speaker 1: is actually located in a town called Bonanza. It's Bonanza,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, where this happened. We were talking about, you know,

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Speaker 1: what do we watch, you know, as kids, and Bonanza

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Speaker 1: was okay, it just wasn't my thing. But you know,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of interesting, I think, at least as an aside.

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Speaker 1: But when you see the when you see the set

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Speaker 1: and everything that they had kind of built in place

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Speaker 1: there and the surrounding countryside. It looks like, you know,

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Speaker 1: John Wayne would have filmed here. I mean, it truly

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Speaker 1: looks like a western Western location.

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Speaker 2: New Mexico is an amazing state of you've never been.

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Speaker 2: I encourage you to go. There's a lot of history there.

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Speaker 2: In the case of the shooting on the movie set,

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Speaker 2: Rust mentioned that Alec Baldwin has now been child with

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Speaker 2: involuntary manslaughter and since the shooting occurred, there has been

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Speaker 2: a huge question mark as to who actually is responsible. Joe.

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Speaker 2: That's why I asked you about the role of the

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Speaker 2: producer or associate producer, because on a set there are

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Speaker 2: mainly three people involved. In this particular actually there's more,

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Speaker 2: but let's say four people. You have the actor Alec Baldwin,

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Speaker 2: the director of photography Helena Hutchins, the armorer Hannah Gutierra's Reid,

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Speaker 2: and the assistant director on the movie, a guy named

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Speaker 2: David Halls. I bring up him because David Halls pled guilty.

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Speaker 2: He was an assistant director in this film. He pleaded

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Speaker 2: no contest actually brother to a misdemeanor charge of negligent

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Speaker 2: use of a deadly weapon. He was sentenced to serve

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Speaker 2: six months of unsupervised probation, and he has agreed to

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Speaker 2: testify at upcoming trials.

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Speaker 1: There's also you know we talked about Helena, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's there's actually another person that could very well have

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Speaker 1: wound up deceased as well, and that's that's the director,

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Speaker 1: Joel Susa, because he was struck. I mean he was actually.

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Speaker 2: I forgot about that. I forgot about the shot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. He was struck by the same round,

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Speaker 1: Dave that passed through this poor woman's body. The director

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Speaker 1: of photography will.

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Speaker 2: Back up for a minute. Yeah, so you've got the

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Speaker 2: director of photography and the director are standing in front

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Speaker 2: of Alec Baldwin. Yes, the gunfires and it goes through

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Speaker 2: her first and then lands in him.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, And that's that's called an I'm not

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Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, I'm not diminishing Helena anyway about

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Speaker 1: what I'm about to say. But just understand this from

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Speaker 1: a scientific standpoint, she would have been the intermediate target, okay,

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Speaker 1: as we're looking at it, So the round would pass

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Speaker 1: through her and then continue on through her and then

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Speaker 1: the final landing spot you know relative to this would

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Speaker 1: be the director Susa and I think that that listen

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Speaker 1: this round that we're talking about, Dave, This is important

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Speaker 1: for everyone to understand. This is a robust round. This

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Speaker 1: is a four five caliber round. This is the same

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Speaker 1: round that any of us have served in the military

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Speaker 1: in the eighties, the nineties, early nineties before they transitioned.

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Speaker 1: This is this was our workhorse. This is a long

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Speaker 1: cult but you know we carry forty five ACP in

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Speaker 1: the in the famous nineteen elevens. You know that we

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Speaker 1: wore on our hips in the military, and so it

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Speaker 1: in that round is robust, to say the very least.

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Speaker 1: It's a lot larger, so you've got and it travels

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Speaker 1: at a subsonic level, which means below the speed of sound,

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Speaker 1: but it carries a tremendous amount of mass with it

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Speaker 1: as it's on target. So you can have around like

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Speaker 1: a forty five caliber round that strikes that that first target,

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Speaker 1: which in this case would have been Helena, and it

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Speaker 1: can fragment at that point. You might not get the

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Speaker 1: entire round that will pass through that intermediate target, but

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Speaker 1: you'll get a portion of it sometimes and then it

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Speaker 1: still has lethal velocity to it. Those little fragments. As

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Speaker 1: it travels down range, it strikes another target and you

254
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Speaker 1: wind up having to first off, try to gauge the

255
00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:21,880
Speaker 1: trajectory of this thing. You have to understand something about

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Speaker 1: the injuries that took place. Where's her exit wound. And

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Speaker 1: this is what Baldwin has contended is that because she's

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Speaker 1: the director of photography, she had him in a position

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Speaker 1: where he is seated and just to set the scene here.

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Speaker 1: This is taking place in kind of a mocked up

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Speaker 1: little chapel, like a little church. Okay, it's got an

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Speaker 1: altar the whole nine yards. There's across her cruise fix

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Speaker 1: hanging on the wall, and you're seated on a bench, okay.

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Speaker 1: And what he alleges is that they were setting up

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Speaker 1: for the shot and she was trying to tell him

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Speaker 1: what position his hand should be in rotated to the left,

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Speaker 1: rotated to the right, lifted or descending, what attitude should

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Speaker 1: his hand be in, because she's trying to capture that

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Speaker 1: image when it appears on the screen. I think that

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Speaker 1: many people don't realize how much work goes into capturing

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Speaker 1: a specific scene in a motion picture, because every little

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Speaker 1: scene tells a story and it for just the setup

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Speaker 1: where you're looking at him. Okay, he's seated, he's seated

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Speaker 1: in that bench or on that bench, and he is

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Speaker 1: literally looking off to one side of the camera so

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Speaker 1: that he's staring at them. You don't ever stare directly

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Speaker 1: at the camera, so you're looking to the left or

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Speaker 1: the right, and it's almost like he would be having

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Speaker 1: a discussion with someone. Maybe he's threatening or menacing them

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Speaker 1: with a weapon as the actor, but she's trying to

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Speaker 1: tell him where to position. This contention is is that

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Speaker 1: he had the weapon and he does a crossdraw the weapon.

283
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Speaker 1: He's right handed, the weapon is position is holstered on

284
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Speaker 1: his left hip, and he draws this weapon out. Now,

285
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Speaker 1: the thing about this weapon is that it is a

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Speaker 1: single action revolver. In order to make this thing work,

287
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Speaker 1: you have to pull the hammer back, which is on

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00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:26,879
Speaker 1: the back of the weapon. It rotates the cylinder. The

289
00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 1: cylinder rotates. Hang on, let me get it straight. I

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Speaker 1: think it rotates to the left. So it turns to

291
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Speaker 1: the left and it will land on a live round. Now,

292
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Speaker 1: whether that round the weapon has to be checked. It

293
00:18:40,600 --> 00:18:43,400
Speaker 1: can be a dummy round, it can be a blank round,

294
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Speaker 1: or you mentioned the term squib. A squib is an

295
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:50,160
Speaker 1: explosive that many times you'll see him, like if you've

296
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Speaker 1: ever seen the scene where Sonny gets shot in The Godfather,

297
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Speaker 1: James Kahn had tons to say about that over his

298
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Speaker 1: career because they had a hundred of these things on

299
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Speaker 1: his box and he was talking about how painful that,

300
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Speaker 1: and it looks painful, right, and then these things are

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Speaker 1: blowing up on you. So you've got that element or

302
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:14,159
Speaker 1: or something that should not be present there, Dave, And

303
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:18,040
Speaker 1: that's live ammo. And this live ammo is pure. It

304
00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:22,040
Speaker 1: is a pure lead what's referred to as ball round

305
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 1: ammunition that was fed into this weapon.

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Speaker 2: We mentioned you were as an associate producer on a film,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's important to note this because on

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Speaker 2: a movie set where you have these different people with

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Speaker 2: different roles and different responsibilities. Alec Baldin has contended that

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Speaker 2: he was handed a cold weapon, a cold gun. What

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Speaker 2: does that mean to an actor? When you say this

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Speaker 2: is a cold gun.

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Speaker 1: It implies, well, it specifically states that's a procedural thing.

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Speaker 1: Like if I hand you a cold gun and I'm

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Speaker 1: the one proclaiming that it's a cold gun, I'm saying

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Speaker 1: I've hadn't inspected this dam thing. And I can tell

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00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:06,320
Speaker 1: you it doesn't have live round in it. It's not

318
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Speaker 1: gonna it's not gonna do you harm. I'm the armor

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Speaker 1: armor telling me that. I'm telling you that.

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Speaker 2: If I am holding a gun, yes, just because you

321
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Speaker 2: told me it's clean, I'm still gonna check it, you bet,

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Speaker 2: because that's the rule of thumb with handling a weapon,

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Speaker 2: and anybody who is responsible at handling a weapon is

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Speaker 2: responsible for what that weapon does. The trigger doesn't pull itself, no,

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Speaker 2: the gun doesn't point itself. That takes the person. And

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Speaker 2: just because you tell me that it's clear, that's not

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Speaker 2: taking my responsibility away. It's my job. I give you

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Speaker 2: an example we had at my mother in law's house.

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Speaker 2: There have been guns hanging in there for years. As

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Speaker 2: a matter of fact, I've been that. I'd never noticed

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Speaker 2: them before. Never I've been there, you know, forever. And

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Speaker 2: after years of going to my mother in law's house,

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Speaker 2: I did not notice the was a gun wreck in

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Speaker 2: this area that used to be the dining room, mainly

335
00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: because other stuff hanging in there. But one year at Christmas,

336
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Speaker 2: one of the kids grabbed it off the rack. That's

337
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 2: when I noticed it. Hey, there's a yeah, and it

338
00:21:17,119 --> 00:21:19,760
Speaker 2: was a kid grabbing it, and the kid was being

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Speaker 2: with his father there. I'm like, uh, what are you doing,

340
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Speaker 2: because again my children are in this house. You're grabbing

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Speaker 2: a gun off you know. And then what caught my attention,

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Speaker 2: of course, is that they grabbed the gun like it

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Speaker 2: was a toy. They weren't, and we're bringing it down

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Speaker 2: at your level. And I stopped and I grabbed it.

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Speaker 2: And that's not loaded. Dave, like, really, let's just look, okay,

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00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,399
Speaker 2: just because it's hanging on the wall, you don't know

347
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Speaker 2: who put it there. You don't know why. What if Papaul,

348
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Speaker 2: who's now been dead ten years, What if Papaul actually

349
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Speaker 2: had that up there as his loaded weapon in case

350
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Speaker 2: there was an intruder, he could grab it right off

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Speaker 2: the top rack loaded, knowing it's loaded, and could you

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Speaker 2: know his family? What if it's not loaded? Day they

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Speaker 2: had this, the kid had been pointing it before I

354
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,439
Speaker 2: even caught this. Okay, so I grab it. Check it

355
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Speaker 2: sure that there's a life round in it. No telling

356
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Speaker 2: how long it had been in there, no telling if

357
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:14,199
Speaker 2: that gun is still fired. I don't know. But the

358
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 2: thing is is that in a home where I was

359
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Speaker 2: there with my children. Somebody grabbed a gun off the

360
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Speaker 2: gun rack with his dad present and was allowing him

361
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Speaker 2: to act like it was a toy when it was

362
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Speaker 2: a loaded gun. Somebody could have died in that moment.

363
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Speaker 1: Yeah, I got to tell you, I would feel And

364
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Speaker 1: I've been around guns since I was a very small child,

365
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,119
Speaker 1: come from a family of hunters, and certainly all of

366
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Speaker 1: my experience as a death investigator been around lots of guns.

367
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Speaker 1: And I never make that assumption that a weapon is

368
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:53,639
Speaker 1: safe on any level. You know, if I can't inspect

369
00:22:53,640 --> 00:22:56,679
Speaker 1: it myself, if you put it in my hand, I

370
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Speaker 1: have to verify it.

371
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Speaker 2: Now. If I hand you and Joe, I'm going to

372
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Speaker 2: tell you it's not loaded. Here. I'm going to tell

373
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Speaker 2: you that, But that doesn't relieve you of the responsibility.

374
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, look, I'd feel perfectly safe if

375
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Speaker 1: I left you at the house of my grandchildren to

376
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Speaker 1: watch over them. I trust you, all right, But when

377
00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: it comes to a firearm, I'm sorry. I don't if

378
00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,160
Speaker 1: you're insulted, or if anybody else is insulted. If they

379
00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 1: hand me a weapon, I'm going to check it myself

380
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: to see And I would encourage anybody that perceives or

381
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: takes a weapon to inspect it yourself, you know. But

382
00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: this brings us to the point about this particular gun,

383
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 1: in this platform. It is what many people, you know,

384
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: they're not familiar with guns, but see Western some people

385
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 1: would call this a cowboy gun, and it looks that way.

386
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Speaker 1: It's a revolver. It's got a.

387
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 2: Is it bigger than what we would expect from a pistol.

388
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: The pistols nowadays are you know, and they're in various sizes.

389
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: You've got compacts that are out there, but and you've

390
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,879
Speaker 1: got full size, there's medium sizes. And most of the

391
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 1: weapons that we see today are semi automatic weapons, handguns

392
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 1: that is now there are revolvers. There's still old school

393
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 1: guys that carry revolvers, but this particular kind of you

394
00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: have two types of revolvers, Dave. You have what's referred

395
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: to as a single action and a double action. And

396
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,439
Speaker 1: it's important for everybody to understand that if it's a

397
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: double action, you put your finger on the trigger and

398
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: as you pull back on the trigger, the hammer itself

399
00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 1: goes back and the hammer is external that you can

400
00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: see it. It's where you see people cock a weapon

401
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 1: with their thumb double action, you can actually pull the

402
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: trigger back. You'll see the hammer. You don't have to

403
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: put your hand on the hammer, your finger on it.

404
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: It'll pull back and then when it gets to a

405
00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,639
Speaker 1: particular point, it'll actuate and that hammer will fall forward,

406
00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: and when it falls forward, it strikes the firing pin

407
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: or some hammers have a firing pin that's built on

408
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: to the surface of it and it taps the back

409
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: of the bullet. This weapon is a single action weapon day,

410
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,560
Speaker 1: So what does that mean. It's not just pulling the trigger.

411
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: It's a matter of you actually taking the weapon, pulling

412
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:21,320
Speaker 1: the hammer back with your thumb, and then pulling the trigger.

413
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 1: But that's not what Balin said happened. What he says

414
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 1: happened is that he pulled it back, the hammer went

415
00:25:30,119 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: forward without pulling the trigger, and the weapon discharged. I

416
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 1: think the FBI Crime Lab has got something to say

417
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:58,400
Speaker 1: about it. In forensic science, a lot is made, as

418
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: well as should be, about the study of weapons from

419
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 1: a ballistics standpoint. And when I say ballistics, you've got

420
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,959
Speaker 1: internal ballistics and you've got external ballistics. And really what

421
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:18,880
Speaker 1: we're focused on is how the round exits, a weapon

422
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: strikes a target, Can we get any forensic data off

423
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: of that round that is recovered? Can we match it

424
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,240
Speaker 1: back to a weapon? But here's something else happens in

425
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 1: a firearms lab. Not only are ballistic scientists or firearms examiners,

426
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: not only are they really keen on the study of

427
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 1: say rifling marks on around or say extraction marks on

428
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: spent brass, or those sorts of things, they're also kind

429
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: of like gunsmiths to a great degree because they understand

430
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: the internal workings of a weapon. You know, they have

431
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: to evaluate a weapon from a variety of perspectives. But

432
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: here to the most crucial things that they do. First off,

433
00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,520
Speaker 1: they try to determine how many pounds of pressure it

434
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:19,600
Speaker 1: takes in order to actuate a trigger. Okay, so let

435
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: me give you an example. If you take a weapon

436
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 1: and you cock it and you hang it in the air, Okay,

437
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 1: they will in fact apply weight to the trigger and

438
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,119
Speaker 1: depend it upon how much weight is required to get

439
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 1: that trigger to actuate. That's where we get the term

440
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: pounds of pressure to make this weapon work. And that

441
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: assessment would be done on the question weapon, which, by

442
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 1: the way, the FBI didn't examine. The Other thing that

443
00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 1: they're going to do is take a look at the

444
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,360
Speaker 1: guts of the weapon. They'll take it apart and make

445
00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:08,479
Speaker 1: sure that there are no elements within the weapon that

446
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: would lead us to believe that this was a some

447
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: kind of hair trigger where it would like easily go off.

448
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: The FBI report that came back on this weapon confirmed

449
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 1: that this thing's intact, Dave that it's fully functional. So

450
00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: that leaves us with kind of quite the conundrum here,

451
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:34,840
Speaker 1: doesn't it. Because you've got Alex Baldwin, the famous Hollywood

452
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:37,280
Speaker 1: and I don't know, I guess you would still qualify

453
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 1: him as an a lister. I mean, he's been in

454
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: movies for years and years. I'm a big fan of

455
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: Tom Clancy and my Lord I loved Hunt for Red October.

456
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: You saw him in that, And he's been in all

457
00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 1: kinds of movies. And let me tell you one other thing.

458
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 1: Even in that movie, he was using a weapon, the

459
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: famous scene where he's with Sean Connery inside the submarine.

460
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:05,240
Speaker 1: He's been in any number of motion pictures over the

461
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: years where he is firing a weapon, he's utilizing a weapon.

462
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:17,040
Speaker 1: You can't you cannot tell me that you're ignorant of

463
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: form and function when it comes to firearms. I don't

464
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,200
Speaker 1: care if you are an actor. It's not an excuse

465
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 1: you've had. You're a grown man. You've had all of

466
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:31,200
Speaker 1: this time on set. You know how the process works.

467
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,360
Speaker 1: So for him to proclaim that you know that it

468
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: was somebody else's fault, that he doesn't take personal responsibility

469
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,200
Speaker 1: for what happened, I ain't buying it. I ain't buying it.

470
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 1: The guy's been around weapons forever.

471
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: When he was interviewed not long after it happened, George

472
00:29:50,320 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: Stephanopolis at ABC interviewed him, and Ali Baldwin said he

473
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,680
Speaker 2: was describing what took place leading up to it. Where

474
00:29:57,680 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 2: they're on the set, they're going through what's going to

475
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:03,400
Speaker 2: take place in this scene. They've got to get the camera,

476
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 2: you know. Helena Hutchins is the director of photography, The

477
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 2: actual director of the film is right there. And the

478
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: reason is they're setting it up. We need to you know,

479
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,280
Speaker 2: it's not as simple as just hey, grab a camera

480
00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 2: and film this guy doing this scene. Everything has to

481
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: be set.

482
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:18,719
Speaker 1: Lights, everything. I got to tell you, I saw some

483
00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,000
Speaker 1: still images of the stuff that she had shot, and

484
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: they're beautiful. I mean, she's obviously or was obviously quite

485
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 1: the artist.

486
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 2: The thing is, a movie set is a lot of

487
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 2: hurry up and wait. That's why it takes so long

488
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: to film a movie. Is it just to film a

489
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 2: simple scene?

490
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 1: Right?

491
00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: It takes multiple people involved and different angles because you

492
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 2: got to get different angles on the shot. Anyway, Baldwin

493
00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: actually said to George Schnefelopolis, he describing what happened, and

494
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 2: he's describing Helena Hutchins setting him up. And she says,

495
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: and she says to me, hold the gun lower, go

496
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: to your right, Okay, right there, do that show it

497
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,239
Speaker 2: a little. He's describing, you know, how Helena Hutchins is

498
00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: directing him where to hold the gun for the shot.

499
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 2: In other words, it's not my fault. The gun was

500
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: aimed at her. She was telling me what to do,

501
00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 2: he said. She's guiding me through how she wants me

502
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 2: to hold the gun with this angle. And I draw

503
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 2: the gun out and I find a mark. I draw

504
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 2: the gun out cut. And what's really urgent is the

505
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 2: gun wasn't meant to be fired in that angle. So

506
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 2: and then George Stephialupaka says, so, if you're shooting directly

507
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 2: into the camera lens. You're Baldwin. I'm not shooting into

508
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 2: the camera lens. I'm shooting just off, just off. And

509
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: which goes back to my original point. You don't, ever

510
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,640
Speaker 2: you're on a set, you don't point it directly at

511
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: someone you, you know, because film is not real life people,

512
00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 2: you don't get the sense of the angle or even

513
00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 2: depth perception. You know, it's all different. But anyway, he says,

514
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:56,479
Speaker 2: and this is what was important. You talked about how

515
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,120
Speaker 2: it has to be cocked. The gun has to be cocked.

516
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: And I keep going back to this. He said the

517
00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:04,640
Speaker 2: gun was cold. He said, I was handed an empty weapon.

518
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 2: But he says, I cocked it. I cocked the gun,

519
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 2: and he said, I cocked the gun and go he said, Okay,

520
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 2: he says, then I let go of the hammer and

521
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: the gun went off. Right, I cocked the gun. I

522
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: let go of the hammer and the gun went off. Well,

523
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,560
Speaker 2: the FBI proved that wasn't gonna happen. Isn't that correct?

524
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, they did. And also any kind of jostling

525
00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: that may have happened that that's one other point. I

526
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,479
Speaker 1: don't know why it slipped my mind. I had to

527
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: tell you and I think that it's essential here can

528
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,840
Speaker 1: this weapon and we have to consider all of the

529
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: possibilities here. One of the things that the ballistics expert

530
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: would have done, the firearms examiner, they would cock that weapon.

531
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: And David, you know, did you know that after they

532
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 1: will cock a weapon, they'll actually drop it intentionally to

533
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: see if it'll if you'll get an accidental discharge on

534
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: this thing, to make sure to make sure that you know,

535
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 1: like what you're saying, what you're saying is you know

536
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: what your supposition as a suspect in a case is,

537
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: you know the weapon accidentally discharged? All right, Well, the

538
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: firearms examiner really didn't have a dog in a fight.

539
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,920
Speaker 1: They're looking at the item they've been called to testify

540
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 1: to or examined, and then they'll offer testimony, which, by

541
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: the way, when this does go to trial, we're going

542
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: to hear more about ballistics in this case than any

543
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,160
Speaker 1: any case I can imagine, even compared to I don't know,

544
00:33:34,440 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: the Texas mc ivory case, Text mcgiver case, which it

545
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 1: just went on and on and I think I even

546
00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: did an episode of Body Bags about it. So yeah,

547
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 1: this is you We are going to hear more about

548
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,920
Speaker 1: ballistic evidence in this case than any recent case that

549
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: I think has been in the news. So, and you're

550
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 1: going to have a farms examiner that's going to talk

551
00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: about trigger pull, They're going to talk about pounds of

552
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 1: pressures required, They're going to talk about the guts of

553
00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 1: the weapon, whether or not thing was actually functional. They're

554
00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: going to also talk about this idea if if the

555
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 1: weapon is that you can have quarter cock, half cock,

556
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: and fullcock, can you get this thing to initiate by

557
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: dropping it from a specific height And all of that

558
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: is going to be integrated into it. Not to mention

559
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 1: the recovered round that they took out of this poor

560
00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: man's body. You know where he was the you know

561
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,360
Speaker 1: the wound up being you know, in the line of

562
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: fire as well. The director and I got to tell

563
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: you it's it's really a bizarre thing. Where she is

564
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: standing directly in front of him. I don't know if

565
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 1: if that's a common practice that you would stand at

566
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: the business end of a muzzle not giving it any

567
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,880
Speaker 1: kind of thought. But even if she was, she's not

568
00:34:58,080 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 1: holding the gun.

569
00:34:59,360 --> 00:34:59,840
Speaker 2: He is.

570
00:35:00,200 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 1: He is the one holding the gun.

571
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:04,319
Speaker 2: By the way, there were other crew members around too.

572
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,760
Speaker 2: Joe it wasn't just her and the director standing behind her,

573
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:11,760
Speaker 2: there was a full crew because the crew members talked

574
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 2: about how Baldwin how the shot actually happened, and described

575
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: Baldwin saying, so I guess I'm gonna take this out,

576
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,200
Speaker 2: pull it and go bang, and that's when it went.

577
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:27,239
Speaker 2: And uh. Anyway, they described how when Helena Hutchins was shot,

578
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 2: her last words that that was not any good. That

579
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,280
Speaker 2: was not good is what she said. That was actually

580
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 2: exact words. That was no good, that was no good

581
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 2: at all. As she falls into an electrician it was

582
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 2: right there behind her and they see blood pouring from her.

583
00:35:43,680 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 1: Chest totally smokes it was. That's a surreal it's a

584
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,319
Speaker 1: surreal being And you know, Dave, this is not a

585
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: when these things happen and they're reported on. We think

586
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: that this is occurring in a vacuum and it's never

587
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:00,560
Speaker 1: happened before. But you know, you and I, yep, you know,

588
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: we share kind of some of the same interest. I think,

589
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 1: probably as it applies to film history and all that

590
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,880
Speaker 1: sort of thing, and we were talking about it. I

591
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: think I was shocked when I began to reflect about this,

592
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 1: how many incidentss like this had occurred. I remember what's

593
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:22,600
Speaker 1: this kid's name, the Brandon Lee, Well, Brandon Lee gotxham yeah,

594
00:36:22,680 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 1: hetxham uh. And that was back in eighty four. He

595
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: had had and this was supposed to be blank ammunition

596
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 1: and it was Dave. He had a a forty five.

597
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:35,759
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, let me phrase.

598
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 2: Hold on. They'd had a long day on this long wait. Yeah,

599
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 2: and it had been going on. They're filming a TV

600
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: show called Cover Girl. It was about these models that

601
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:47,719
Speaker 2: become secretations or something some you know, crazy. They had

602
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,240
Speaker 2: the guy that was on six million Dollar Man, Richard

603
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: Dean Anderson. He was yeah anyway, Oscar. They had a

604
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:58,240
Speaker 2: full day on the set. Everybody's exhausted. They were only

605
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 2: they were in their first season that there was like

606
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 2: the seventh, eighth, ninth episode somewhere in there, and Hexham was.

607
00:37:03,880 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 2: They were excited because he was going to be this

608
00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 2: big star. They expected him to be the breakout star

609
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,400
Speaker 2: of this show. Good looking guy. Everybody said, he's a

610
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: nice young man. I mean, everybody's cheering for this guy

611
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 2: and he's got the starring part of the show. But

612
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,879
Speaker 2: they've been on set for twelve hours or so, exhausted, long,

613
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 2: so he's taking a break on the set and actually

614
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 2: is sitting on a bed, right, and he's just sitting there,

615
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,839
Speaker 2: waiting and probably frustrated. It's been such a long day, right,

616
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:35,080
Speaker 2: But he's got a prop gun, Joe, a prop gun

617
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: on a set. He wasn't filming a scene. It's a

618
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: prop gun, and I'm trying to figure out why, maybe

619
00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 2: playing around, not realizing that a prop gun is dangerous,

620
00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 2: which I didn't realize how danger was until you explained

621
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 2: to me what happened with John Eric Hexham and the

622
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: prop gun when he's exhausted and just killing him between

623
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:04,239
Speaker 2: the next set.

624
00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: The story is nuts. I mean it's absolutely nuts. He

625
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 1: sits there and I can't understand still to this day,

626
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: I can't understand why somebody in their right mind would

627
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: do this, but just to set the scene, and so

628
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: people can't understand what type of weapon he had. It

629
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 1: was a forty four magnum platform. It's the same weapon

630
00:38:23,760 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: that Dirty Harry uses. Remember he famously said being that

631
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:31,200
Speaker 1: this is a fort forty five magnum the most powerful

632
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 1: handgun in the world, which, by the way, no longer

633
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: it doesn't hold that title. I don't know that it

634
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: ever actually ailed that title, and it will blow your

635
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:41,760
Speaker 1: head clean off. You can ask yourself a couple of questions.

636
00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: He takes this weapon with a blank round in it,

637
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:50,120
Speaker 1: and I guess feigning frustration, Dave. He takes this weapon

638
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: and holds it to his head, cocks it, pulls the trigger,

639
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:00,879
Speaker 1: and discharges this blank AMMO into the side of his head.

640
00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 1: Now people think blank and they think, oh, yeah, this

641
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 1: is completely harmless. It's a no. It is not like

642
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: a cap gun. This thing has got a load in it.

643
00:39:11,280 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: Because you have to give even on camera, you have

644
00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: to give the impression. Now nowadays they could probably use

645
00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 1: special effects to some and even in the wake of

646
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 1: the Rush shooting, they're talking about using CGI. Some people

647
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 1: are We're not going to use any kind of weapon

648
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,239
Speaker 1: with a load in it. We're going to use or yeah,

649
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 1: this is eighty four man. When he put this thing

650
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,760
Speaker 1: to his head, it's a very interesting kind of injury

651
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 1: he sustained. This is a gas fracture, slash concussive fracture.

652
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: Matter of fact, it was so significant that when this

653
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,439
Speaker 1: thing discharged, it blew out a plug of bone from

654
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: his skull and drove it into his brain. So a

655
00:39:55,800 --> 00:40:00,240
Speaker 1: portion of his skull actually became a projectile and it

656
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,080
Speaker 1: it ended his life right there on set. And then

657
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: I don't know how many years that was.

658
00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:06,960
Speaker 2: A Do you think he might have been playing you

659
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 2: know how some of us will play around, We get

660
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: frustrated and we take our finger like a gun in.

661
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 1: Boom, you know, right right right?

662
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 2: You think maybe he was doing that like somebody was like,

663
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:15,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's been a long day, we're all frustrated,

664
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:18,839
Speaker 2: and he just went like that, you know, like boom, right.

665
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:20,759
Speaker 1: I think I think that's probably what happened. I don't

666
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 1: think that there was intent here, you know, yeah, yeah,

667
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: And I don't know that even I don't you know,

668
00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 1: I don't like to sit here and say that Alec

669
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:34,359
Speaker 1: Baldwin had specific intent. But this is this is a

670
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:39,359
Speaker 1: negligent event. This is something that should not have happened, right,

671
00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 1: And I think that it comes down to reasonableness, you know.

672
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: And and I guess it was six years after that.

673
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: Was it six or nine years with Brandon Lee.

674
00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: I only know about this because I was actually in

675
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 2: eastern North Carolina. I was about forty five miles away

676
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 2: from where this took place, and it was huge local

677
00:40:58,480 --> 00:41:01,799
Speaker 2: news at the time, actually a huge local news that

678
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 2: Brandon Lee, the son of Bruce Lee, who had been

679
00:41:05,200 --> 00:41:07,320
Speaker 2: doing a few had been making a little bit of

680
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: a name for himself. This was his first starring role,

681
00:41:10,080 --> 00:41:12,120
Speaker 2: and there were a lot of comparisons about Bruce Lee

682
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:15,120
Speaker 2: dying young and here's his son, Brandon, carrying the torch

683
00:41:15,160 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: and he's shooting this movie The Crow. They had high

684
00:41:17,640 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 2: expectations for it, and so there was a lot of

685
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 2: local coverage of Brandon Lee in the movie and on

686
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: the set. It was a scene where he gets shot,

687
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 2: and it's you know, you don't film a movie in sequence.

688
00:41:30,239 --> 00:41:33,040
Speaker 2: It's film based on many things. But they were shooting

689
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: the scene where he his character dies in the movie

690
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,160
Speaker 2: and he gets shot. And but what had happened is

691
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 2: the gun that they were using was a prop gun.

692
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 2: But somehow, and they actually I've read this, you know

693
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:49,719
Speaker 2: so much more about guns and things than I do.

694
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,759
Speaker 2: But somehow, in the course of using this prop gun,

695
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 2: they had a fake projectile in it that did not

696
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 2: fully clear the barrel and it left a piece of

697
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:07,760
Speaker 2: bullet in the in the barrel in a previous scene,

698
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: and nobody bothered to check the barrel right, and they

699
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,440
Speaker 2: reloaded it with a cartridge, a blank cartridge, and the

700
00:42:14,480 --> 00:42:18,759
Speaker 2: blank did fire. But what happened is there was that

701
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:23,399
Speaker 2: small it's called a squib load, which I actually had

702
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,919
Speaker 2: to look this up. His gun, the gun that used

703
00:42:25,960 --> 00:42:28,839
Speaker 2: to shoot Brandon Lee. It was a prop guy. It

704
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 2: was loaded. It was a real revolver, but it was

705
00:42:31,360 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: loaded with a prop a dummy round. However, there was

706
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: a problem because the dummy rounds improvised from a live

707
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 2: cartridge that had the powder charges removed by the special

708
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: effects crew so that in close ups the revolver would

709
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 2: show a normal looking ammunition. But the crew they didn't

710
00:42:52,200 --> 00:42:55,840
Speaker 2: remove the primers from the cartridges, and at some point

711
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:59,399
Speaker 2: before the fatal shot, one of the rounds had been

712
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 2: fired and there were no powder charges, but the energy

713
00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 2: from that ignited primer was enough to separate the bullet

714
00:43:08,600 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 2: from the casing and push that into the part way

715
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 2: into the gun barrel, and he got stuck and they

716
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 2: didn't clear it. And right by not clearing it. That's

717
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 2: and by the way, this is an actual, real condition

718
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 2: called a squib load. It's an actual term in the

719
00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 2: movies squiblad. It happens. You're supposed to check the barrel.

720
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 2: You're supposed to check the gun because these things do happen.

721
00:43:34,719 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 2: So even with safeguards in place, Joe, they didn't bother.

722
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: No, no, And I don't know if there's anything necessarily

723
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 1: fool proof in this world. But he was struck by

724
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 1: this remnant that was left in the barrel because it

725
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:51,200
Speaker 1: wasn't cleared, and he's struck in the abomin day so

726
00:43:51,320 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: he's bleeding out internally. They have to remove him from

727
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:56,400
Speaker 1: the set, take him to the hospital, and he dies

728
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: in the local hospital there in Wilmington.

729
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: It was sad because it was like I remember covering

730
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,160
Speaker 2: this that he had been wounded on set. It was safe,

731
00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 2: like I told you, huge coverage locally. I remember cutting

732
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,200
Speaker 2: the news thing brand Lee injured on the set. We

733
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: thought injured, not a big deal. Yeah, he's in surgery.

734
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:19,279
Speaker 2: He's dead. It happened just like that, and boom. How

735
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,360
Speaker 2: is it possible, Joe, that that happens And you and

736
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: I are sitting here talking about all these years later.

737
00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: We're not in the movie business, we're not actors, but

738
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 2: we know it happened to Brandon Lee. You're gonna tell

739
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: me that. I like Baldwin and other people on the

740
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:33,279
Speaker 2: set of Russ don't know and don't remember that.

741
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, and even going back to Hexham too,

742
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you just don't you don't think.

743
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 1: And look, I'm sure that and we're just talking about

744
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 1: the people that have died, right, I can only imagine

745
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: there have been other instances on sets, probably from all

746
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: over the world, where people have been wounded. I'm sure

747
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 1: relative to this, and I'm not saying that some great

748
00:44:55,520 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 1: change just got to take place, but my lord man,

749
00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: you know that there's a history of it. You know

750
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,200
Speaker 1: that this can happen. You know what the potential is.

751
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: You're actually handling firearms on the set and still to

752
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: this day, I don't know if it'll happen at trial.

753
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:16,160
Speaker 1: It might. I want to understand and it needs to

754
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 1: be thoroughly explained that on the set of the Rust film,

755
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: how in the world, among all of the five hundred

756
00:45:27,120 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 1: rounds they recovered at the scene, out of those rounds,

757
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:38,240
Speaker 1: how in the world did live rounds make it onto

758
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: that set and into that revolver. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan

759
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 1: and this is body