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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust that's.

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Speaker 2: Three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me.

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Speaker 4: Trust me.

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Speaker 5: I'm like a swat person. I've never lived.

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Speaker 6: To you, I've never had a live.

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Speaker 2: Do you think that one person has all the answers?

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Speaker 2: Don't welcome to trust Me? The podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 2: belief and manipulation from two American psychos who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 2: I Am Loela Blanc and I Am Megan Elizabeth and

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Speaker 2: Today is part two of our interview with Guinevere Turner,

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Speaker 2: screenwriter films like American Psycho, and Charlie Says actress and

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Speaker 2: now author of her new memoir When the World Didn't End,

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Speaker 2: which is about her childhood spent in the Lineman Family cult.

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Speaker 2: In this week's episode, we'll discuss how she ended up

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Speaker 2: getting kicked out of the group and living with her

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Speaker 2: mom after years of barely knowing her The cognitive dissonance

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Speaker 2: of suddenly going to school with outsiders, being sexually abused

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Speaker 2: by her mother's partner, and how she finally decided to

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Speaker 2: never go back to the Lyman family.

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Speaker 1: We'll also talk about learning to tell your story and

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Speaker 1: how it isn't always healthy to do it right away,

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Speaker 1: when trauma can become your identity, how she began to

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Speaker 1: process her experiences, and the cult recovery group Guinevere is

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Speaker 1: In now hosted by one of our previous guests, Yanya Latlitch.

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Speaker 2: Content warning. We will be discussing physical and sexual abuse

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Speaker 2: of children in this episode, so that is your heads

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Speaker 2: up before we get into it with Guinevere. Megan, can

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Speaker 2: you please tell me your cultiest thing of this week?

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Speaker 1: Yes, this one's sad. This is about a girl who

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Speaker 1: was living in Asia. She's actually Russian, but she started

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Speaker 1: eating like an extreme diet of raw fruit and vegetables

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Speaker 1: and the masks all these followers on social media. She's

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Speaker 1: super beautiful and she just died of starvation.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah.

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Speaker 1: It just kind of goes to show how like even

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Speaker 1: our best intentions can go bad once they get to

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Speaker 1: it extreme.

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Speaker 2: You know, Oh my gosh, that's that's wild.

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Speaker 1: The headlines, I'll say vegan died, and I know a

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Speaker 1: lot of healthy vegans, so I'm not trying to make

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Speaker 1: it about her being vegan.

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Speaker 4: But she was just eating a couple fruits. And you know,

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Speaker 4: the culty thing.

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Speaker 1: About our society right now is that she had followers

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Speaker 1: who were like, you go girl, like I want to

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Speaker 1: do that, Like you can make anything look good and

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Speaker 1: it's not.

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Speaker 2: So Yeah, what's happening behind the curtain can be a

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Speaker 2: very very different story.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so that made me sad. It bears repeating.

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Speaker 1: I think we've mentioned it on here before, but we

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Speaker 1: really want to do an eating disorder episode because your

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Speaker 1: brain becomes your own and her cult leader I had

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Speaker 1: to go to treatment for it, so I get it,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's a very interesting topic.

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Speaker 4: And very dudly topic, one of the most deadly mental illnesses,

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Speaker 4: very very scary. So really sad. But Lola, what's the

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Speaker 4: cultiest thing that happened to you this week?

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Speaker 2: Well, as we know from last week, Netflix has this

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Speaker 2: new show called How to Become a Cult Leader. I'm

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Speaker 2: one of the tucking heads in it, and it's been

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Speaker 2: really interesting the response. I haven't watched the show. I

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Speaker 2: didn't make the show, you guys. I just did an

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Speaker 2: interview for it, a couple of interviews for it. But

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Speaker 2: it's been interesting seeing the response. I've gotten a bunch

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Speaker 2: of new followers, which is cool, and hopefully they you know,

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Speaker 2: if anyone is interested in cults, they can come to

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Speaker 2: this podcast and maybe maybe some people will think about

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Speaker 2: groups that they're in. But specifically, what I'm finding super

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Speaker 2: interesting is that, you know, I see the verified accounts

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Speaker 2: at the top of the new follower notifications or whatever.

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Speaker 5: Interesting.

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Speaker 2: So I'm seeing all the people who either are public

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Speaker 2: figures or paid for their verification and are trying to

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Speaker 2: be public figures. And what's really strange is that it

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Speaker 2: seems like a lot of them are literally trying to

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Speaker 2: be cult leaders. Oh and I'm not sure they got that,

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Speaker 2: Like the show is like it doesn't like.

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Speaker 1: That, So I so, are you saying they're trying to

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Speaker 1: be like influencers that are.

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Speaker 2: No, I mean it's whatever, it's like fifteen out of

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Speaker 2: like two thousand or whatever, but still.

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Speaker 4: You're like Tony Robbins follows me.

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Speaker 7: There's like people who are who are gurus, self help leaders,

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Speaker 7: motivational speakers, but all of them look like very not

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Speaker 7: legitimate to me, to me who's like, obviously, you know,

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Speaker 7: very skeptical person.

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Speaker 2: I'm just like, what what are you getting out of

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Speaker 2: following me?

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Speaker 4: I mean, is it a hate follow I don't know.

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Speaker 2: Maybe maybe the in quotations prophet that I believed in

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Speaker 2: as a child was really revved up by my mom

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Speaker 2: being very not open to alternative religions to her Mormon

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Speaker 2: faith when they first met, and it became like a

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Speaker 2: challenge for him to like break her down and break

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Speaker 2: down the faith in the religion she already was in. Interesting,

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Speaker 2: So part of me is like, I wonder if there

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Speaker 2: are these cult leaders who are like, oh, yeah, Lola

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Speaker 2: doesn't think she'd follow a cult leader, will let me

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Speaker 2: give it a shot? Again, you're a challenge or maybe

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Speaker 2: not or who knows, but but it is it is

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Speaker 2: odd like people who we would talk about on here,

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Speaker 2: like so I'll start saving those profiles and keeping an

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Speaker 2: eye on them.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you're a listener, and do you think we

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Speaker 1: might be talking about you leave us five stars anyway,

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Speaker 1: and I keep following the podcast.

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Speaker 2: Also, cult leaders that we don't like them, No, we

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Speaker 2: don't we like but we love the survive person we

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Speaker 2: love the people who've unfortunately had to experience things like this.

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Speaker 2: That doesn't mean that anyone who's a life coach is

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Speaker 2: automatically problematic, or anyone who's, you know, like trying.

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Speaker 4: To help others.

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Speaker 2: But there's a particular kind that raises my red flash.

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Speaker 2: Yeah for sure, that's what I'm referring to. Yeah, oh,

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Speaker 2: that's scary. Anyway.

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Speaker 4: I hope none of.

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Speaker 1: Them get to Yolo la Oh.

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Speaker 2: I guess we'll find out. And uh, before before we

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Speaker 2: find out, let's talk to quinneverr.

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Speaker 4: I can't wait.

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Speaker 2: They've ever been on the hunt for a new doctor

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Speaker 2: and you ask literally everyone you know for their recommendation.

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Speaker 1: You know a doctor who actually gets you, listens to you,

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Speaker 1: and makes you feel super comfortable.

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Speaker 2: And finally, after weeks of searching, you find the one.

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Speaker 1: So you call their office and they have an appointment available,

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Speaker 1: but the receptionist tells you they don't take your insurance.

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Speaker 2: Wipe your tears, put away the ice cream, and head

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Speaker 2: over to ZocDoc defined and book the doctor who is

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Speaker 2: right for you and takes your insurance.

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Speaker 1: ZocDoc is a free app where you can find amazing

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Speaker 1: doctors and book appointments online.

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Speaker 2: Zoctoc is perfect. When you're like me and you have

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Speaker 2: something minor like eczema that you get all the time

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Speaker 2: and it's horrendously itchy and it's not worth waiting a

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Speaker 2: week and going into an office, you can just see

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Speaker 2: someone and they can just give you the prescription you need.

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Speaker 2: We're talking about booking appointments with thousands of top rated

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Speaker 2: patient review doctors and specialists.

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Speaker 1: You can filter specifically for ones who take your insurance,

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Speaker 1: are located near you, and treat almost any condition you're

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Speaker 1: searching for.

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Speaker 2: These docs all have verified reviews from real people in

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Speaker 2: the average wait time to see a doctor is only

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Speaker 2: twenty four to forty eight hours.

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Speaker 1: Go to zakdoc dot com, slash trust me and download

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Speaker 1: the zachdoc app for free. Then find and bucket top

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Speaker 1: rated doctor today.

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Speaker 2: That's zoc doc dot com, slash trust me, zokdoc dot

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Speaker 2: com slash trust me. Okay, So you have this wild

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Speaker 2: childhood bouncing around between all these places, being told various

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Speaker 2: people accept you and don't accept you, and how do

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Speaker 2: you end up going back to live with your actual mother?

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Speaker 5: So I was kind of kicked out of the fancy

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Speaker 5: people and sent back to the farm and within a

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Speaker 5: few weeks I was told that my mom left the family,

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Speaker 5: which is like, holy shit, that's crazy, yeah, but my

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Speaker 5: feelings about it. So she left with this guy FP,

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Speaker 5: which for everyone's amusement, I should say it's not his

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Speaker 5: real name, not to protect him, just because I didn't

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Speaker 5: want to look at his name and say his name

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Speaker 5: over and over. It just stands for fucking psychos. A

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Speaker 5: little fun for me, but I could be talking to

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Speaker 5: people and say that. So she left with this guy

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Speaker 5: if he who you know, was kind of always falling

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Speaker 5: out of favor and not never as you know, powerful

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Speaker 5: as a lot of the men in the family were.

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Speaker 5: And so I was told that they left, and I

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Speaker 5: felt sad, but more like anxious, like how is this

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Speaker 5: going to affect me? Because that is sort of like

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Speaker 5: the ultimate sacrilege and someone does that and they're.

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Speaker 4: Just social situside, you're gone.

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Speaker 5: They're just yeah, they're just non people. And how was

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Speaker 5: that going to, if any in any way, reflect on me. Often,

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Speaker 5: you know, people's you were held responsible for your parents' actions,

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Speaker 5: that that was a possibility in the in the constellation

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Speaker 5: of things that could you know, come back at you.

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Speaker 5: And then they told me that I had to go

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Speaker 5: with her. How old are you eleven and I eleven

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Speaker 5: and a half.

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Speaker 1: I would have said to you, oh wow, yeah.

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Speaker 5: I'm almost twelve. But also, you know, I've been on

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Speaker 5: the planet many times, so you know, possibly eight hundred

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Speaker 5: of course, of course.

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Speaker 7: Uh.

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Speaker 5: And so I really really really didn't want to go.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know her. I automatically kind of hated her

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Speaker 5: if he was already a loser, of remind and now

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Speaker 5: he was just the you know, bottom of the barrel.

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Speaker 5: I didn't want to live with those people. Not only

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Speaker 5: did I not want to live out in the world

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Speaker 5: because yikes, and I would miss everyone and there's no

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Speaker 5: like but you can come visit anytime, that's not how

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Speaker 5: that works. But I didn't want to live with these loser, corrupt, trader,

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Speaker 5: monster people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's also like like the girls, I think

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Speaker 1: it was Daria once referred to like the low ranking people.

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Speaker 4: And so you realize, oh, there's the super.

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Speaker 1: Hierarchy, and my mom and FP are on the lowest

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Speaker 1: level of it. And now I'm being sent out of

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Speaker 1: the kingdom to the darkest part of the village, right, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, with all the evil world.

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Speaker 4: People have no souls zombies.

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Speaker 5: Yeah cool?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so how was that?

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Speaker 5: But they had told me, Jesse and George and you know,

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Speaker 5: some of the people in charge, that I had to

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Speaker 5: do it, but that they were, you know, characteristically fuzzy

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Speaker 5: about this, that I could come back, but I had

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Speaker 5: to at least see what it was like, and that

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Speaker 5: I definitely could come back. When I was sixteen, but

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Speaker 5: I remember because I said, why do I have to go?

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Speaker 5: I don't really know my mom, blah blah blah, And

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Speaker 5: they said, you know, your dad's not in the family,

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Speaker 5: so you know, every kid here has at least one parent.

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Speaker 5: And I remember, even back then, thinking we care about

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Speaker 5: that stuff now, you know, like I'm fine, Like my

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Speaker 5: mom isn't wasn't doing anything in terms of like taking

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Speaker 5: care of me in a daily basis anyway, Like why

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Speaker 5: does it matter? But I now understand legally legal, yeah yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: my mom, I guess could have fought for me. She

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Speaker 5: was going to do that, right. So I went out

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Speaker 5: into the world thinking instantly, like after a night, I

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Speaker 5: was like, Okay, I've been here, I've seen this. I

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Speaker 5: hate it. I don't want to be here. I'm sad.

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Speaker 5: I want to go back and I just spent the

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Speaker 5: next few months telling my mom that, getting up the

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Speaker 5: courage to tell her that, and then being shut down,

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Speaker 5: and then trying again and being shut down, and then

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Speaker 5: eventually like actually going there was a few months before

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Speaker 5: I actually went into school, formal school, and then starting

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Speaker 5: to be like, oh, these people are kind of nice.

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Speaker 5: Oh like I kind of like that song, and then

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Speaker 5: like hating myself and not being like if I if

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Speaker 5: I start to make if I really like this, then

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Speaker 5: like maybe Jesse didn't love me because I was a

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Speaker 5: world person all along, Like I was never enough, like

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Speaker 5: I do belong out here. I don't deserve to be

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Speaker 5: with them, you know all that mindfu.

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Speaker 4: Great, You're like you know when that happened.

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Speaker 5: All experience, So so that was that was really hard,

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Speaker 5: you know, just kind of reconciling with being so sad

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Speaker 5: and wanting to go back so much, to feeling that

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Speaker 5: fade a little bit, and curiosity about what this life

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Speaker 5: was like. And also just school. I was in heaven.

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Speaker 5: Not socially at all, I was in hell, but just

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Speaker 5: in terms of learning, and also like I was in

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Speaker 5: some subjects really smart. I was kind of ahead of

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Speaker 5: a lot of people. So there was a place where

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Speaker 5: I stood out and I just loved learning. I was

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Speaker 5: just that kid, and so actually getting to go somewhere

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Speaker 5: every day and having lessons and tests and all of

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Speaker 5: that and being able to give, like, you know, make

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Speaker 5: an argument in front of a classic I was so

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Speaker 5: enthralled with that. That's exciting.

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Speaker 2: At which point did you start to question whether the

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Speaker 2: outside world actually was okay or like maybe the group

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Speaker 2: was wrong about some stuff? Like clearly there were some

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Speaker 2: cognitive dissonance going on because you did like some of

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Speaker 2: the kids, and you did like some of the song.

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Speaker 2: But do you remember any like clear moments where they

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Speaker 2: started to like crack for you?

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Speaker 5: No, I really I think I sort of in my

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Speaker 5: head justified like they did, say I should stay out

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Speaker 5: here and see what it is. I'm not a bad

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Speaker 5: person for doing this. And it wasn't until I was

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Speaker 5: like like fifteen and started, you know, living in this

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Speaker 5: abusive household with my mom and FP and kind of

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Speaker 5: seeing what he was doing was wanting to be like

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Speaker 5: the powerful, powerful men inside the family, and then looking

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Speaker 5: at how much I didn't like what was happening to me,

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Speaker 5: and then looking back at what was happening to the

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Speaker 5: girls I grew up with. And that's when I started

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Speaker 5: to sort of but not like oh those people were horrible,

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Speaker 5: but like, huh, what was happening? Like exactly what what?

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Speaker 5: Like how far sexually physically were those relationships going? I

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Speaker 5: never knew.

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Speaker 4: So what was fucking psycho doing?

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Speaker 5: Sexually? Abusing?

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Speaker 1: Yeah?

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Speaker 5: And also very violent?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, very very violent.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And so you're saying you saw the parallels between some

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Speaker 2: of the young girls being sort of forced into these

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Speaker 2: marriages and quotation marks with the with the men in

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Speaker 2: the group.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. I mean first I was like, he thinks he's

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Speaker 5: one of them, He deserves me. It was that was

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Speaker 5: my first reaction was like, you don't get to have me.

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Speaker 5: Like if it's gonna be anyone, it's going to be

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Speaker 5: a powerful man. Wow. And but then unfortunately, it just

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Speaker 5: went onlong enough that I grew up enough to actually

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Speaker 5: just be like, oh, actually, let's just let's just look

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Speaker 5: at all of this in a different light. And I

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Speaker 5: started to think back on other things that had happened

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Speaker 5: and other ways in which we were incredibly unsafe as kids,

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Speaker 5: through violence and through you know, just a culture of

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Speaker 5: negligence and you know, patriarchy and steroids. Yeah, yeah, did

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Speaker 5: I think is kind of what most cults that I

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00:14:50,320 --> 00:14:54,080
Speaker 5: know about, how I could describe that miss patriarchy and steroids,

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Speaker 5: you know what I mean. It's that but total, but

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Speaker 5: hyper hyper and in a close, in closed I have

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Speaker 5: a theory.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you and Daria had a pack to skip

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Speaker 1: the third step of any sarwells. Yeah, and in your

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Speaker 1: teens you stop doing it. I'm wondering if somehow that

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Speaker 1: was a moment where you like broke away from a

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Speaker 1: little bit of your brainwashing, because I had a few

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Speaker 1: moments where I look back and I'm like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: stopped doing that one behavior, and maybe I was unraveling something.

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Speaker 5: I don't know. It's interesting that you say that because

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Speaker 5: I am currently writing the adaptation of my book to screen. Yeah,

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Speaker 5: so I don't. I don't remember that specifically, a jar

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Speaker 5: would be cinematic. I do remember forgetting and feeling guilty, right,

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Speaker 5: and then I think at some point I just sort

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Speaker 5: of let it fade away. But no, but I want

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Speaker 5: to hear about yours.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean, well, I still have things where

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Speaker 1: like before I talked to it, to anyone or do anything,

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Speaker 1: I have to touch something that's not touching me, and

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Speaker 1: then like this.

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Speaker 4: I've done that fifteen times today.

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Speaker 2: But that's related to your Yeah do I do?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Why?

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Speaker 2: Because so I don't go to hell obviously, So everyone, it.

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Speaker 5: Was that a thing that you were raised with or

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Speaker 5: just I just made it up? So can you walk

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Speaker 5: me through it again? I have to touch something that's

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Speaker 5: not touching me.

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Speaker 1: Go like those to the tumuls on my fingers and

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Speaker 1: then like this to my neck.

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Speaker 5: No judges, yeah, nine judges.

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Speaker 4: But you guys will never notice that I do it.

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Speaker 4: I'll do it. No, you won't, I will.

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Speaker 2: You're right, I didn't even see anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it seems like you were accidentally deconstructing

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Speaker 1: through just being so smart, being stimulated academically, being abused

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Speaker 1: by this piece of shit at home and uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: still wishing you were back at Martha's Vineyard, which we

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00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:50,840
Speaker 1: forgot to mention there's another compound in Martha's Vineyard, but

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Speaker 1: you have this promise of going back, but you're also

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Speaker 1: learning and there's a little bit of cognitive dissonance there.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, they're definitely cognitive distance there. And I feel like,

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Speaker 5: on a daily basis, my my energy, my brain was

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Speaker 5: consumed with the person I was in school and the

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Speaker 5: person I was at home, which is to say, looking

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Speaker 5: like I was fine while also hating myself or looking

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Speaker 5: like I was fine. And so I feel like I

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Speaker 5: wasn't even able to go much deeper than that in

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Speaker 5: terms of like what do I feel about the Lemon

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Speaker 5: family now? And you know that it was all happening

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Speaker 5: at the same time, but on a daily basis, I

362
00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,520
Speaker 5: was like the opposite of what you would think a

363
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Speaker 5: kid in a violent, abusive household would be, which is

364
00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 5: I need to tell someone. It was this weird compulsion

365
00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,320
Speaker 5: to hide it. And it wasn't consciously hiding it. It

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Speaker 5: was like when I step into this arena, I'm not

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Speaker 5: that right. This is this it's a way and I

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00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:54,520
Speaker 5: you know, that's just you know, disassociation, compartmentalizing, you know,

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00:17:54,560 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 5: survival tools, which I've been making a joke recently that

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Speaker 5: I feel like compartmentalization can be used as a superpower,

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00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 5: like we can take this thing that is a result

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Speaker 5: of trauma, and it actually is very useful. It's a

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00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:13,480
Speaker 5: useful tool in many you know, a woman asked me,

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Speaker 5: you know, reading recently, you know, what is it like

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00:18:16,200 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 5: for you, what was it like to write the book

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00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 5: and like, you know, revisit all of this rough stuff

377
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:23,159
Speaker 5: and then you know, now you're talking about it, and

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00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 5: I'm like, PTSD is my superpower. I'm like, I'm fine, yeah,

379
00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,080
Speaker 5: but it really is. It actually really is useful. You know,

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00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,080
Speaker 5: I can just turn things off and we deal with

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00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,520
Speaker 5: them later slash maybe never. Yeah, I feel like.

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00:18:38,440 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 2: I used to be really good at that. I'm not

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00:18:40,040 --> 00:18:40,840
Speaker 2: good at it anymore.

384
00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:42,959
Speaker 5: Some therapists to ruin you with healing.

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00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, well you guys know a new trick now.

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00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:49,679
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414
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 2: But did he go to jail?

415
00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:07,240
Speaker 1: No?

416
00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: There's an article that said that for some reason, an

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00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:10,840
Speaker 2: article New York Post.

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00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:13,400
Speaker 5: I believe it was. Oh yes, I need to ask

419
00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,280
Speaker 5: them to correct that online. I don't know where she

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00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 5: got that.

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00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,119
Speaker 2: Okay, So he did not go to jail.

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00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:20,920
Speaker 5: No. By the time I got away from that household,

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00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,760
Speaker 5: First of all, my brothers and sisters, my two youngest

424
00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 5: brothers and sister were babies. My other sister was seven,

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Speaker 5: and I would have needed I couldn't have done that

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00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:34,760
Speaker 5: on my own. I would have needed my mother. And

427
00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,520
Speaker 5: she said, she said, you know, it's just not that

428
00:20:39,640 --> 00:20:43,200
Speaker 5: black and white, and when you're older, older, you'll understand

429
00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,399
Speaker 5: that there are just gray areas in life. So I

430
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,640
Speaker 5: was like, well, okay. Unfortunately then I have to go

431
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 5: and leave you all to deal with this abusive person.

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00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,960
Speaker 5: And so I you know, but in the book, the

433
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,399
Speaker 5: last time I see him, when I'm like escaping to

434
00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 5: have go to my fake job at the mall, it's

435
00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,800
Speaker 5: the last time I ever saw him. Not that his

436
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:08,760
Speaker 5: influence wasn't heavily around, because my mom was sort of

437
00:21:09,400 --> 00:21:11,679
Speaker 5: dealing with all sorts of bullshit with him for years

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Speaker 5: and he's dead now. He died a couple of years ago.

439
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,520
Speaker 5: But no, he never went to jail. My mom did say,

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00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 5: as an adult, what when I was, you know, in

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00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 5: my thirties, that she looking back, realized that I was

442
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 5: right when I was sixteen, and that she wished that

443
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:28,400
Speaker 5: she had done something then.

444
00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,000
Speaker 4: Thank god, I mean a little too late, but that's

445
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 4: I'm glad that.

446
00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:36,760
Speaker 5: She said that. That's really validating. I remember when she

447
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 5: said that we were in a car she was driving,

448
00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,280
Speaker 5: and I was like, wow, this is a really big moment.

449
00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 5: I was like, who am I if I'm not angry

450
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 5: at my mom? You know, like just like certain things. Yeah,

451
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 5: I've listened to one of your podcasts recently. You were

452
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,880
Speaker 5: talking about that, like if you're it was the satanic

453
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 5: panic one. You know how for some people, like your

454
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 5: trauma becomes your identity, and like what is it it's

455
00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 5: taken away? Or if you have to face that it's

456
00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 5: actually not true? Also, what is teals wants from?

457
00:22:06,040 --> 00:22:07,680
Speaker 2: Yes all the time?

458
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 4: I asked myself that.

459
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 5: I started watching the documentary about her just because I'm

460
00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,320
Speaker 5: sort of fascinated slash, you know, I'm interested in how

461
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 5: a lot of these abusive coercive leader types are women

462
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,119
Speaker 5: now more than ever. But I just found her so

463
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 5: annoying and unsettling then I couldn't finish it. And also

464
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,720
Speaker 5: that documentary, the one I watched, felt like it was

465
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 5: kind of curated by her to be like words and

466
00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 5: no but not really mm hmmm, I.

467
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,440
Speaker 4: Haven't seen it yet, but that's interesting.

468
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 5: It's kind of a lot. It's kind of a lot

469
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:41,200
Speaker 5: for me anyway, to watch these things unfold in documentaries

470
00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:43,119
Speaker 5: like some days I'm strong, in some days I'm not

471
00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 5: to engage with cult stuff and to you know, watch

472
00:22:47,160 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 5: Shiny Happy People for example, and the one that no

473
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:55,000
Speaker 5: one talks about, the Luis del Mundo, which one this

474
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,240
Speaker 5: is jaw dropping to me. There was an HBO documentary

475
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 5: last fall about this church called the loose film Woudow,

476
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 5: which is Spanish for the light of the World. This

477
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 5: is just like the Shiny Happy People one huge generations

478
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:16,560
Speaker 5: of corruption, pedophilia, like disgustingness, like super do we not

479
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,719
Speaker 5: care because it's predominantly Spanish speaking people? I am, I

480
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 5: am like I was watching it, like why is no

481
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 5: one talking about this? Crazy? Yeah, and one of the

482
00:23:24,640 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 5: big searchers is here in La Wow.

483
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:28,920
Speaker 2: Okay, well we'll have to do an episode on that.

484
00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,639
Speaker 5: And one of the women who's in that documentary is

485
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:33,720
Speaker 5: very much like in the recovery space now and I'm

486
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 5: sure that she would love to, you know, be on

487
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:37,879
Speaker 5: a podcast and talk because she's she was one of

488
00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 5: the first to like whistle blow by like completely derailedy.

489
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:43,960
Speaker 5: Oh if he went to if he went to jail, Yeah,

490
00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 5: when he did not, he died, you know, continue to

491
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 5: be a monster until twenty twenty one and then he died.

492
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,639
Speaker 5: But he you know, uh got more and more and

493
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 5: more and more isolated until even his own adult children,

494
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 5: who really tried to have him in their life just

495
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:03,480
Speaker 5: and talk to him anymore. Yeah, he was psychotic, Yeah,

496
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,320
Speaker 5: and serious OCD and serious. Like I feel like I

497
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 5: also am so interested in that kind of you know,

498
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 5: course of control and high demand groups because he kind

499
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 5: of was that. But he he would have. He just

500
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,639
Speaker 5: wasn't good enough at it to have more than just

501
00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,400
Speaker 5: one little family who eventually all got away from him.

502
00:24:22,800 --> 00:24:26,480
Speaker 5: But what, like, what do people like that tell themselves?

503
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:30,280
Speaker 5: Because it's so intense, and because the language and the

504
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 5: rhetoric is just NonStop, and you know, just this exhausting

505
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 5: wall of contradictory things, And how did they experience the world?

506
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,280
Speaker 5: In what universe? Are they entitled to be violent toward

507
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 5: their family, to be sexually violent toward their family? What

508
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:48,920
Speaker 5: do they like are who do they see themselves as?

509
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 5: What do they think they just did they wake up

510
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 5: in the morning and remember what they just did and said,

511
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,440
Speaker 5: I'm sort of fascinated by that. You know, what people

512
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,119
Speaker 5: really believe and and you know, like with Charles Manson,

513
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,240
Speaker 5: for example, did so much research on him when I

514
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,080
Speaker 5: was writing the movie, Charlie says, and I and you know,

515
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 5: David Nearing, all of these met him. Like what did

516
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 5: they really believe?

517
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,479
Speaker 1: That's the question, Like, I'm I'm always confused. Did you

518
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,200
Speaker 1: believe did you even believe in what you were saying?

519
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:17,080
Speaker 1: Or are you just trying to control people?

520
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:19,960
Speaker 2: Or what? I feel like, I don't know. I feel

521
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: like so many of my theory anyway about so many

522
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: of those people is there's just not that deep. They're

523
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: just thinking about what do I want right now and

524
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:29,119
Speaker 2: how do I get it? And if that involves manipulation

525
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:32,200
Speaker 2: or if that involves violence, or if that involves sexual violence,

526
00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: Like that's what I'm going to do. If that involves

527
00:25:34,119 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 2: going back on the story I said two days ago,

528
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:37,680
Speaker 2: well sure, I'm going to do. Like it just seems

529
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: like it's so obsessed with like their every immediate whim.

530
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of them, I think are just child

531
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: sexual predators, and so they start an entire group that

532
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 1: they don't even believe in just to get to try.

533
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 5: The question is I think that predominantly they do invent

534
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 5: an entire world that they believe system, not even realize,

535
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 5: not even admitting to themselves that that's the ultimate goal.

536
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 5: But these motherfuckers are game. Yeah, you know what I mean,

537
00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:03,000
Speaker 5: Like when you know, when you think about how some

538
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 5: and I think in the case of you know, next

539
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 5: to him and Keith Rnery, it looks like he met

540
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,919
Speaker 5: uh Nancy, uh, what's her name, the one who was

541
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 5: you know, actually like yeah, and he realized he was

542
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:16,119
Speaker 5: onto something. And then I think what happens to a

543
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 5: lot of them is that they start to believe their

544
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 5: own hype because enough people are paying attention to them

545
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 5: that they do sort of start to think that they

546
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 5: totally are godly or at.

547
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,000
Speaker 1: Least you know, the step of the smartest man in

548
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: the world according to the Australia a Guinness Book of

549
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,520
Speaker 1: World Records from an IQ test he made himself.

550
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 2: I do think that he was really calculating, but I

551
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 2: think a lot of people are like my prophet that

552
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 2: I believed in is just almost more like a trum

553
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 2: where he's just kind of like going and just like

554
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: saying and doing whatever, and it comes off confidently, and

555
00:26:47,600 --> 00:26:50,479
Speaker 2: like I mean, obviously he's calculating to some degree, but

556
00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: like the story changes all the time, you know what

557
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:55,240
Speaker 2: I mean, And there's no like consistency.

558
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,520
Speaker 4: And sometimes we'll be like I was lying, I'm a

559
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 4: cult leader.

560
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: And then sometimes if it serves him in that moment,

561
00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:01,000
Speaker 2: but if it doesn't serve him in the next moment, he.

562
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 5: Would literally say that yeah he d yeah.

563
00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like there's he's there are YouTube videos of

564
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 2: him talking about my mom because there was an article

565
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: where he basically admitted that he did it kind of

566
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: but said it was for her own good and that

567
00:27:14,600 --> 00:27:18,439
Speaker 2: she wanted it. So like it's become this point of

568
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,160
Speaker 2: contention in his little mini group now, or the fact

569
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,439
Speaker 2: that sometimes he has said that he did it and

570
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 2: sometimes he said she's a lion bitch or whatever. I

571
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: don't know if he's used those exact words, but that's

572
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 2: the thrust of it. Yeah, I mean, it's to me

573
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 2: that there's they're a very trumpying thing about like that

574
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:37,919
Speaker 2: kind of category of person where it's just like so

575
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 2: impulsive versus I do think Keith was very calculating. I mean,

576
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 2: I know he was calculating. He I don't know if

577
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 2: you listen to the episode one, but he my mom,

578
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: we knew him as well. When I was a kid,

579
00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 2: or even started Exium, and he was trying to get

580
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: my mom to come to Albany like years before Anxium

581
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: was begun, and he'd already sort of started of these

582
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: structures in place, and Nancy was already there. So you know,

583
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 2: like I think they're they're very different styles.

584
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even in the just quote unquote normal

585
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,919
Speaker 1: Christian world, I feel like, you know, Tammy Faye Baker

586
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 1: was kind of beloved because even though she was kind

587
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 1: of a kook, her little like puppet shows about Jesus,

588
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: so you could tell like, oh, she really believes in

589
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: Jesus and I mean to me, But then there's others

590
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 1: where I'm like, you do not believe a.

591
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 4: Fucking word of this.

592
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,920
Speaker 1: There's no way you're preaching about sexual purity and you're

593
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 1: having sex with everyone. You are selfish and you don't

594
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: believe it, and you're just using this as a complete

595
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: power structure. Yeah, and it's so layered of how many different.

596
00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 5: But are they behind closed door going ha haha, I

597
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 5: got them now, yes, through mister Burns villain vibes.

598
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: Sure, I'm for sure, yeah, yeah, probably yeah.

599
00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 5: But then also those cases of those men, they can

600
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,960
Speaker 5: always tell themselves like they're all free to go. I'm

601
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 5: not making anyone stay here, of course, you know. And

602
00:29:04,080 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 5: that's kind of the sort of like ethical like you know,

603
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 5: lie that they can tell themselves, which is that there's

604
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 5: you know, that they're not they're not holding people prisoner. Right, Well,

605
00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 5: that's like that's how domestic violence violence works, you know

606
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 5: what I mean.

607
00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: I also think and like these these terms are very

608
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 2: vague and ambiguous. We do not it's not you know,

609
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 2: as rigorous as we want them to be yet. But

610
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 2: I do think there's a difference between like the like

611
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 2: I would I would probably categorize Keith Vanieri if I'm

612
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 2: armchair diagnosing as a psychopath, versus someone who's like more

613
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 2: like just narcissistic and like just you know, going moment

614
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 2: to moment, Like I don't know that they even take

615
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 2: the time to justify. I don't know that Keith even cares.

616
00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:47,680
Speaker 2: And then there might be another category of person who

617
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:53,440
Speaker 2: like is constructing an elaborate justification for for themselves doing

618
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: the things that they want. Yeah, right, kid, I do

619
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,720
Speaker 2: believe this. It is for their own good. I should

620
00:29:58,720 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: be the prophet. I did have the vision, you know. Yeah, oh, God,

621
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:06,240
Speaker 2: we all kind of put them in. They're all kind

622
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: of in the same category right now. But I feel

623
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 2: like as we learn more about human behavior and human nature,

624
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,320
Speaker 2: we will like start to delineate different categories of people

625
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 2: who do these kinds of things. In the dark tet

626
00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 2: trad it's called now or whatever.

627
00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:19,760
Speaker 5: What's dark.

628
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: So there's a dark triad, which is I think it's

629
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 2: psychopathy and Machiavellian, And then now they've added one more

630
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 2: so now I believe it's the dark tetrad. You did

631
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: one of the I can't remember who was that we

632
00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: had on oh so yeah, so now there's sadism added

633
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,400
Speaker 2: to it. But there's so much overlap that to me,

634
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: these are all very like ambiguous. It's hard to kind

635
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: of like really nail down.

636
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's interesting because in the religion I was raised,

637
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,080
Speaker 1: and it's kind of burning to the ground right now,

638
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: and there's some leaders in it who it says here

639
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 1: like they like risk taking, and people are like, why

640
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 1: don't they step down?

641
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 4: Why don't they run away?

642
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: And I'm like they're they like this shit, like, can

643
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 1: I still get away with what I'm doing?

644
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: Mm hmm?

645
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 4: Can I still molest a kid? Can I still do.

646
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,640
Speaker 2: This, or they just literally don't even think about consequences,

647
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 2: like the.

648
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 1: Part of they they don't think that a consequence will

649
00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 1: ever affect them.

650
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:23,360
Speaker 5: For sure.

651
00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: Those two diagnosed sociopaths we had on We're both like, yeah,

652
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,760
Speaker 2: we don't think about We just like, don't we even

653
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 2: think about it?

654
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:30,680
Speaker 5: You had diagnosed sociopaths.

655
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they were dating.

656
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: So they were dating each other.

657
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh wow, wow so interested in that. Yeah, they

658
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 5: were cool.

659
00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 2: I mean, shout out throw back to that episode because

660
00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: I feel like that was a super interesting episode that

661
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 2: has been lost in the in the time.

662
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 5: What were their names?

663
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 2: Emmy Thomas is her I mean it's not a real name,

664
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,719
Speaker 2: but Emmy Thomas is the name she goes by. And

665
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: then she was in a relationship. I don't know if

666
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:56,440
Speaker 2: she still is, but she was in a relationship with

667
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:59,080
Speaker 2: another woman who was also diagnosed sociopath and they found

668
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 2: each other like on a form Ariya Aria, thank you, Steve, Yeah,

669
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: Ario asam.

670
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 3: She talks about etiquettes, get your fangers out of your mouth.

671
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 3: She talks about where to find a deal.

672
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 5: You know, if you sell me something on Instagram, I

673
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 5: buy it. Whoever markets to me does a fabulous job.

674
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 3: She talks about the economy.

675
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: We used to joke that'll be the thing to send

676
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,640
Speaker 5: them to therapy. Okay, we're creating jobs. Can we look

677
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 5: at it that way?

678
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 3: She talks about parenting.

679
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 5: These kids want to.

680
00:32:22,600 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: Come home, they don't want to leave, they don't want

681
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: to drive, they want.

682
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 5: To stay in the womb.

683
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 8: Let's talk with Heather Debrow every Thursday on podcast one

684
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:37,280
Speaker 8: or wherever you get your podcasts.

685
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 5: I'm also interested in, you know, when we talk about

686
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,440
Speaker 5: categorizing these types of you know, coercive leaders, let's just

687
00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 5: call them if we think you YouTube and me that

688
00:32:49,640 --> 00:32:52,120
Speaker 5: what we're doing talking about this stuff, talking to people

689
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 5: from all these different angles and perspectives. There's a goal

690
00:32:55,280 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 5: to it, which is to say, if the dark triad

691
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 5: slash toutra because I didn't know that tetrad was a word,

692
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,360
Speaker 5: I didn't gilame it right now, if that becomes part

693
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 5: of the cultural lexicon, then we are actually doing the

694
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 5: work of a new generation and a present generation of women.

695
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 5: In particular. Let's be clear, it's predominantly women who are

696
00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:21,880
Speaker 5: suffering at the hands of these people. So that they

697
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:24,239
Speaker 5: won't people won't get sucked in as much because they

698
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,400
Speaker 5: will recognize it exactly. Yeah, Yeah, I think, I mean,

699
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 5: I think that's what the you know, that's part of it, right,

700
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:34,320
Speaker 5: is just creating a conversation that's more aware of what

701
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,520
Speaker 5: like how much harm can be done that you can't see,

702
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 5: and how much agency can be taken away from an

703
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 5: adult human. Yeah, it's terrifying.

704
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,840
Speaker 2: Education, I think is a primary goal for us. Also

705
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 2: humanization because you know, not like the cult leader, though

706
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 2: not of the cult leader, of the of the people

707
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,200
Speaker 2: in it. We can't be victim blaming. We have to

708
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:57,640
Speaker 2: be humanizing people. I agree.

709
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 5: I was watching this documentary of like ten years ago

710
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 5: called The Source, which is about the Source family that was,

711
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 5: you know, basically a cult here in LA but they

712
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:08,839
Speaker 5: just had a restaurant and did shit that most people

713
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 5: would think was weird but no crimes. And I was

714
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 5: watching it and I was really relating to it. It's

715
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 5: the same era as the family I grew up in,

716
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,640
Speaker 5: and you know, same personally, the same place, and the

717
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,799
Speaker 5: audience was laughing at them, and it was the first

718
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 5: time I experienced like, hey, like those are my people,

719
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 5: Like I felt protective, like yeah, you know, it's weird too,

720
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 5: But this is just people making choices and living together

721
00:34:33,200 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 5: and in a way that's not familiar to you. But

722
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 5: it's not comedy, Like they really are people and they

723
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,280
Speaker 5: really do believe these things. I find that. So that's

724
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 5: a huge part of what I try to talk about

725
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:45,560
Speaker 5: when I talk about it, is you know, why do

726
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 5: we say, you know, I'm obsessed with cults, Like it's

727
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 5: not real people. You don't say I'm obsessed with human

728
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 5: trafficking because you know that would be ef fucked up

729
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 5: thing to be obsessed with unless you are working hard

730
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:56,799
Speaker 5: to stop it.

731
00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:59,759
Speaker 1: Well, I think it's really scary to people that anyone

732
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,399
Speaker 1: could join. Like your mom had a very high IQ,

733
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 1: but she was pregnant in a difficult situation. So sometimes

734
00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:11,399
Speaker 1: when we talk to people, we realize, oh, they they

735
00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: got sucked into this in a very vulnerable time in

736
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: our life, and we're all susceptible when we're vulnerable, which

737
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 1: is really scary for people who want to think that

738
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: they're in control.

739
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:23,439
Speaker 5: I yeah, yeah.

740
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 2: And people have a fascination with serial killers in the

741
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 2: same way. I feel like it's just the extremes of

742
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 2: humanity are fascinating to us and feel foreign, and I

743
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 2: think it makes us feel safer, you know, to otherize

744
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 2: it and be like, that couldn't happen to me. That's

745
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 2: the thing that happens to crazy people or you know.

746
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,240
Speaker 5: But the serial killer analogy its interesting because in that case,

747
00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:47,680
Speaker 5: it's one person. We can all agree it's that okay,

748
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 5: And true crime tends to be you know, one bad

749
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 5: actor in a family or you know, one person, and

750
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,520
Speaker 5: then people who get sucked into whatever that is. But

751
00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 5: in this case, like you were saying, people are like,

752
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 5: what a bunch of idiots. That was nine hundred and

753
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 5: seventy people who committed suicide, two hundred and fifty of

754
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 5: them being children, Like, they're not all idiots. Whatever happened there,

755
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,600
Speaker 5: we should all try to understand it so it never

756
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:13,400
Speaker 5: happens again.

757
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.

758
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 5: I was when I was recording an audiobook recently that

759
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,439
Speaker 5: I was talking with the engineer and the director and

760
00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,720
Speaker 5: it was just lunch, and they were separatelyfferent two different

761
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 5: conversations used the term drank the kool aid, and I

762
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 5: just couldn't, and they meant it in a very like

763
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 5: you know, at this other job, she has people you

764
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:33,200
Speaker 5: really have to drink kool aid to work there, and

765
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:34,320
Speaker 5: she said it to some other and I was like,

766
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, you guys, I just have to point this out. This.

767
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:39,840
Speaker 5: Do you know where this expression comes from? And the

768
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 5: one she was like, I don't know. I just thought

769
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 5: it was like, you know, like you're all at a

770
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 5: party and you drink the same punch and then really yeah,

771
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 5: and then and she was like maybe in her twenties.

772
00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 5: And then another woman who's closer to my age, maybe

773
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 5: in her late forties, she said, Oh, I I didn't know.

774
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 5: I knew about jonestown, but I didn't know that that

775
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 5: term referred to them.

776
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 2: Oh I'm shocked. I thought everyone I knew that's where

777
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 2: I came.

778
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:01,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, but we're real culty.

779
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, but even before.

780
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 5: And so I'm also like, how things like that. I'm

781
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 5: so when you use that term, you should know that

782
00:37:10,600 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 5: you are referring casually to nine hundred and seventy people

783
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 5: committing mass suicide, some of them not by choice. Yeah,

784
00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 5: and they're And how insane that is and how insane

785
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 5: it is that people are like, WHOA, that's weird, Like

786
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:27,839
Speaker 5: that wasn't people who potentially walk among us who are

787
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 5: as vulnerable, you know, as getting sucked into something that

788
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 5: gets that extreme. I mean I felt the same thing

789
00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:35,239
Speaker 5: when the Waco thing was happening and I was seeing

790
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:36,759
Speaker 5: it on TV and I could see that there was

791
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 5: a standoff, and I could see that, you know, Janet

792
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 5: Reno had come in, and I was like, do they

793
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,399
Speaker 5: not understand? Do not tell an apocalyptic cult? Don't act

794
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 5: like the apocalypse to an apocalyptic cult, Like it's not

795
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 5: going to go well for people in the cult. Yeah,

796
00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 5: I just I just a lot of lives could have

797
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 5: been saved if people understood the dynamics there. Probably also

798
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 5: also with Jim Jones. So I'm like, I want to

799
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,480
Speaker 5: prevent this kind of disaster from ever happening. And by

800
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,640
Speaker 5: creating an awareness and a humanization as you were saying.

801
00:38:06,520 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, well you're doing good work on multiple friends now

802
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: considering writing movies and books, TV.

803
00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 1: Shows potentially, I just want to add to the vulnerability

804
00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: of being born into it as opposed to joining it

805
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 1: later because I've deconstructed a lot, I've been given great therapy,

806
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:32,160
Speaker 1: I've been given wonderful opportunities, and there's just thoughts things

807
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: that are like imprinted into me that I don't know

808
00:38:36,560 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 1: if we'll if they'll.

809
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:38,160
Speaker 5: Ever go away.

810
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 1: So you were saying, you you have like you're part

811
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 1: of a group that helps process it.

812
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:48,839
Speaker 5: Yeah, so Yanya Lala just want someone that you'll see

813
00:38:48,840 --> 00:38:51,719
Speaker 5: a lot. You've had her on the on this podcast.

814
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:54,680
Speaker 5: She is a quote unquote called expert. I just put

815
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:56,719
Speaker 5: it in quotes because what does that even mean? Not

816
00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,840
Speaker 5: at all anything against Yanya. I'm friends with her and

817
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 5: her organization called the Lawge Center, which maybe someday will

818
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 5: actually be a physical place, does these incredible support groups

819
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,160
Speaker 5: for people related to cult and cult recovery all around,

820
00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 5: but specifically, there are groups that I am in, discussion

821
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:17,839
Speaker 5: groups that are for people who are raising cults, and

822
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 5: it's been very It's kind of amazing to be in

823
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,000
Speaker 5: a community of people who who identify so with this

824
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 5: really specific identity that we have. And I recommend to

825
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 5: anyone who's thinking about cult recovery or even questioning was

826
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,839
Speaker 5: how I grew up actually a cult to just like

827
00:39:39,000 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 5: look at her work and her discussion groups because the

828
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 5: community has been so important to me. And I actually

829
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 5: led a writing workshop for some of the women a

830
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,600
Speaker 5: few months ago, which was great because so many women

831
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,879
Speaker 5: who are fresh. It's not all women, but it's predominantly women.

832
00:39:57,120 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 5: Who are fresh out of cults or fresh into their

833
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 5: journey realize that they grew up going to call want

834
00:40:01,480 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 5: to write a book, and I don't necessarily advise that

835
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 5: right away, you know, Yeah, I mean I was reading.

836
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 5: I spoke with Sarah Edmondson, who was in the Next

837
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:16,520
Speaker 5: Dame in one of the big whistleblowers there, and she

838
00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 5: said that she regretted how quickly she wrote a book,

839
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 5: but that she you know, in the moment, she just

840
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 5: sort of, you know, was pressured into it and felt

841
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 5: the pressure to tell her story in that way. But

842
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:30,399
Speaker 5: the book's not that good. And I know Daniel what's

843
00:40:30,440 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 5: his name, I think he was on your podcast too,

844
00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 5: from the Sarah Lawrence called, but he wrote a book,

845
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 5: but then he didn't want to promote it, like he

846
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 5: didn't get that, you know, because he I think because

847
00:40:41,120 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 5: the case was like just don't write the book too soon, yeah,

848
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,399
Speaker 5: and don't make it. And for me, I think it's

849
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 5: the reason I took so long to write it. One

850
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 5: of the many reasons is that I didn't want it

851
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 5: to be my identity.

852
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,359
Speaker 2: One hundred percent. I was just talking about this with

853
00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,479
Speaker 2: my mom on the way here. It's like, I feel

854
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: like because there's such an appetite right now for cult

855
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 2: stories and true crime stories and salacious you know, like

856
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 2: crime stories of various kinds, Like there probably does feel

857
00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: for a lot of people where it's they're coming to

858
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: terms with it now, there must be an enormous pressure

859
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: to capitalize on it. But once you do that, like

860
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: that is, if you do it too quickly, I can

861
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 2: imagine that that would sort of become the center of

862
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: your existence and presence.

863
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 5: And if you're on a path of you know, finding

864
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:34,000
Speaker 5: agency and figure out who you really are in the

865
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 5: world and not just all the stuff you were fed

866
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,880
Speaker 5: and raised with, then you should do that first, like

867
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 5: figure out who do you want to be, not like

868
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 5: actually just a byproduct of your environment and that's your

869
00:41:43,760 --> 00:41:46,120
Speaker 5: whole thing, you know, like finding a different piece of

870
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 5: your identity and fostering that I think is the important part.

871
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: Totally. Healing takes time and getting perspective, like true perspective

872
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: on what happened and not just like the ah Now

873
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 2: we know cults in the culture and I was in one,

874
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:03,440
Speaker 2: but like really like letting yourself process that before jumping in,

875
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:06,719
Speaker 2: like the work will just be better anyway.

876
00:42:06,160 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 5: Right, I think I'm also really curious to ask both

877
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 5: of you, like about what I will just call just

878
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 5: made this up your cult closet, which is to say,

879
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 5: we all know, at whatever point in our lives we

880
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 5: decided to talk about how we grew up to people

881
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 5: who didn't know that. The response is all over the place,

882
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 5: but usually it's it's uncomfortable because people are like, oh, what,

883
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,400
Speaker 5: how was it? What was this? What was that bubble?

884
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 5: When they ask you on these questions. And so I

885
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 5: learned pretty early on to just not talk about it

886
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 5: because I didn't want to. I didn't feel like I

887
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:40,279
Speaker 5: immediately felt this kind of outsider energy that was wasn't

888
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,799
Speaker 5: coming from a good place and sort of just just

889
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 5: interested in the weirdness of it. And so I'm just

890
00:42:45,400 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 5: sort of wondering for you two, like when you're dating.

891
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 5: I mean, now you did this podcast, so there's probably

892
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 5: a lot of people in your life no your story,

893
00:42:52,239 --> 00:42:53,839
Speaker 5: but you know, when you're dating or when you meet

894
00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 5: new people, like at you know, how big is your

895
00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:58,839
Speaker 5: cult closet? Who gets to come in?

896
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 2: You want to go first? I feel like you're more recent.

897
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess just everyone because growing up I

898
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 1: did stick out like a sort.

899
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 4: Thumb, but it just wasn't talked about.

900
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:11,640
Speaker 5: You know.

901
00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 1: I went to a secular school, but I dressed like

902
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 1: I was an an amous community for the first half

903
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,240
Speaker 1: of my life until I realized I could borrow friends

904
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: close at school.

905
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 5: And change there.

906
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,360
Speaker 4: So it felt like just an open secret.

907
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: And now if I'm talking to somebody and it goes

908
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:33,400
Speaker 1: a layer deeper than just how's the weather, and it

909
00:43:33,440 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: happens to come up, it's it's not it's not like

910
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: what's the word darling to me? Or like two secret

911
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: to me? But there are parts of it for sure

912
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:46,439
Speaker 1: that no.

913
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 5: I yeah, I'm yeah.

914
00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: I guess maybe because in my it's very common and

915
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: where I came from, but in my personal story there

916
00:43:53,600 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: there wasn't really any sexual abuse. It was more just

917
00:43:56,239 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 1: like very hell based and fear based and whatever based.

918
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 4: And I'm able to connect with that with people. Maybe

919
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 4: that's why.

920
00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 5: But my cult closet is pretty.

921
00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 4: Open except with my family. Yeah, we act like it's

922
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:13,839
Speaker 4: not happening because they're still in it.

923
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 7: Wow.

924
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:14,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

925
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 2: I didn't talk about it to anyone ever until I

926
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:22,040
Speaker 2: was like twenty eight and wrote an article about it.

927
00:44:23,239 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 2: Actually because I had visited short Creek and it was

928
00:44:25,160 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: before my mom lived there, And then it sort of

929
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 2: opened the doors to my editor being like, maybe you

930
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 2: should talk about your story. Once I did it, I

931
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 2: just kind of started talking about it. But I feel

932
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: like speaking of compartmentalization, I feel like it's in this

933
00:44:39,160 --> 00:44:43,759
Speaker 2: very like clinical like almost like ha ha, yeah, I

934
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 2: was a I believed in occult leader. Isn't that funny?

935
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:48,320
Speaker 2: And then I like, I will give people the information,

936
00:44:48,680 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 2: but it's very rare that anyone would actually see what

937
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 2: I like the vulnerability of it. Like, no one other

938
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,400
Speaker 2: than a couple of boyfriends have ever seen me actually

939
00:44:58,440 --> 00:45:02,080
Speaker 2: like express real feelings about it, don't think even on

940
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 2: this podcast, like we talked about it all the time,

941
00:45:04,000 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: but I still feel like I'm I'm not usually like

942
00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 2: actually feeling things.

943
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, do you.

944
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: Feel like it's easier that like your parents, like your

945
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:20,359
Speaker 1: mom is out Yeah totally is your Is your mom

946
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:23,280
Speaker 1: a believer in anything out there anymore?

947
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 5: Does she? Yeah? Totally not?

948
00:45:25,480 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah it's yeah, yeah, Well my mom is has

949
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,799
Speaker 2: been telling her story now for for years, and that's

950
00:45:32,840 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 2: been like it's given me permission because most of what

951
00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 2: happened happened to her did happened to me. What happened

952
00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:38,759
Speaker 2: to me is I was separated from her, and I

953
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 2: knew she was very upset, and I didn't know why

954
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: until later. What happened to her significantly worse. So like

955
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,239
Speaker 2: her talking about it openly is like, Okay, now I

956
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:50,359
Speaker 2: can I can actually talk about this thing we went through.

957
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:52,600
Speaker 2: Otherwise it would feel very weird to be like my

958
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: mom was aterffick. Guys, she doesn't talk about it, but

959
00:45:56,080 --> 00:45:58,200
Speaker 2: I'm going to tell you, you know, like, no, it does.

960
00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 1: It does at a certain level of weirdness for me

961
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:02,840
Speaker 1: that my parents are still in it.

962
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean for me, I have you know, like

963
00:46:07,360 --> 00:46:09,680
Speaker 5: my generation, some are in and some are out, but

964
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 5: everyone's First of all, we grew up as siblings, but

965
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 5: then some people are actually related, right, so you know

966
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,319
Speaker 5: that there's like there's a lot of people that I

967
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 5: care about who are still I wouldn't necessarily trust to

968
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 5: talk about it openly because I don't know where they stand.

969
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,400
Speaker 5: And you know, a lot of people I grew up

970
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,120
Speaker 5: with are just those adults are still there. So it

971
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 5: is like it's very alive for me, and now even

972
00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,959
Speaker 5: more so because I wrote this book and I've had

973
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:42,359
Speaker 5: my cousin who is not in the family, but his

974
00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 5: mother is my mom's sister. He wrote me yesterday about

975
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 5: the book that he said, as many of the kids

976
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 5: I grew up with are writing me now, said like

977
00:46:52,840 --> 00:46:56,440
Speaker 5: that I really captured it. M Dad, that they really

978
00:46:56,480 --> 00:46:58,200
Speaker 5: felt like that. That is what it was like. And

979
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 5: my cousin, Pete is is like five six years younger

980
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:05,399
Speaker 5: than me, so his experience was different. But he said,

981
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 5: you know, even though my life, my aware life, was later,

982
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 5: that is what it felt like. So it is interesting,

983
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,040
Speaker 5: and my aunt is fully still a part of it,

984
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 5: and that's It's just it is odd also because writing

985
00:47:22,560 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 5: a book like this is, you know, to an entire

986
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 5: group of people, a profound act of treason. And yeah,

987
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 5: and you know, and I'm I'm I'm a villain.

988
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,800
Speaker 2: Right, It's crazy that they're even that they still exist

989
00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:39,359
Speaker 2: because it just seems like such a vestige of.

990
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 5: A different time. Yeah, they do, and their properties too,

991
00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 5: and they Jesse actually passed away in February, and so

992
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 5: I don't know what sort of sort of madness is

993
00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:52,840
Speaker 5: probably happening to them. But you know, she was, you know,

994
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 5: they had their structures in places to keep going. So

995
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 5: it's not like they're going to fall apart. But I'm

996
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,320
Speaker 5: sure it's a it's a new era. One kid, I

997
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 5: always say kids in then I know we're all adults now.

998
00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:05,920
Speaker 5: But one kid I grew up with, who I haven't

999
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 5: talked to at all, randomly sent me a photo of

1000
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 5: her grapestone on Facebook Jesse's I don't know, like, was

1001
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 5: that like a hostile act or like did you hear?

1002
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 5: I don't know. I just was like, right, you know

1003
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 5: what that's about?

1004
00:48:20,880 --> 00:48:25,840
Speaker 9: Astaria stillnet no, yes, no, yes, I mean she was

1005
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 9: kind of, you know, back and forth with conflict with

1006
00:48:29,800 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 9: her mother, and you know, now our mother's passed away

1007
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 9: and there's I'm sure a lot to deal with.

1008
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:38,120
Speaker 5: She's uh depend on what day you talked to her.

1009
00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 2: And Daria is the was kind of like your best

1010
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 2: friend who brought you in.

1011
00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 5: Yes, she was Jesse's daughter, the only child of Melvinman

1012
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 5: and Jesse right right, right.

1013
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 2: So you just to kind of wrap up your your

1014
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 2: experience like you went to college or you were about

1015
00:48:57,680 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 2: to go to college and kind of went back to

1016
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,680
Speaker 2: the group for a little while, right and decided it

1017
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 2: wasn't for you. And what was it that brought you

1018
00:49:06,200 --> 00:49:06,960
Speaker 2: to that conclusion.

1019
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 5: I was really excited to go back before I went

1020
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 5: to college, just because I still miss them, and because

1021
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 5: I kind of wanted to see how everybody grew up,

1022
00:49:15,640 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 5: and I wanted them to see me grown up. It's now,

1023
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 5: you know, seven years later, a little lesson seven years later.

1024
00:49:22,280 --> 00:49:25,560
Speaker 5: And I spent like a week there, and they were

1025
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,640
Speaker 5: my generation and the older generation saying, you should stay,

1026
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 5: you should live here, You should don't go to college.

1027
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:34,480
Speaker 5: Why would you go to college? You know, if you

1028
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 5: want to be a writer, you can be a writer.

1029
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 5: You already are one. Just stay here and write and

1030
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:39,720
Speaker 5: you'll never have to work another day in your life.

1031
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:41,759
Speaker 5: And it was all these good I thought that would

1032
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:44,960
Speaker 5: be so tempting. Yeah, and everyone is, you know, being

1033
00:49:45,000 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 5: their most lovely selves. And it was the vineyard and

1034
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:49,880
Speaker 5: like all these houses and properties that I you know,

1035
00:49:50,120 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 5: land that I grew up with, and like it just

1036
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 5: really felt like home. And I hadn't trained myself out

1037
00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 5: of this intense eye contact thing because I was told

1038
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 5: it was weird, but that's just how they are. And

1039
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,640
Speaker 5: then I got back and everybody's just and I'm like,

1040
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 5: these are my people. I just keep looking. But if

1041
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,160
Speaker 5: you like, really think about eye contact. I encourage anyone

1042
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,480
Speaker 5: listening to do this. Just someone, even someone you know, well,

1043
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 5: just hold eye contact with them. But when you're talking

1044
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,680
Speaker 5: for more than five seconds and it's instantly creepy, I

1045
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 5: hate it. And I had to learn that, like the

1046
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 5: societal accepted way of looking quickly away and then looking

1047
00:50:26,120 --> 00:50:29,240
Speaker 5: back without seeming sketchy, which is if you're just learning,

1048
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 5: can seem also. I'm sure it seemed super weird. But

1049
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 5: there they were all just like full eye contact all

1050
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 5: the time, which is like such a cult cliche but true.

1051
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 5: And so I was very I was I really was

1052
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 5: not going to go I wasn't going to go to college.

1053
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 5: I was like, this is my home, these are my people,

1054
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 5: this is where I belong. It's been like along hard

1055
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 5: road and here I am. Maybe that was what I

1056
00:50:48,560 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 5: had to learn, you know. And then just everyone's sitting

1057
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:56,839
Speaker 5: around after dinner and a man just put his wine

1058
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 5: glass kind of in front of my face. I was

1059
00:50:58,280 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 5: sitting on the floor next to him. Didn't even look

1060
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 5: at me, just put his wine glass, empty wine glass

1061
00:51:02,800 --> 00:51:05,080
Speaker 5: in front and I realized, oh, I have to he

1062
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,719
Speaker 5: must get up and get him some wine. And then

1063
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,200
Speaker 5: I just kind of like that was definitely a moment

1064
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 5: like you were talking about before, where I had this

1065
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 5: complete you know, the veil lifted or whatever the cliche is,

1066
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 5: where I just suddenly looked around and thought, oh, the

1067
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,479
Speaker 5: gender roles, the you know, the way that women serve

1068
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 5: men that you know, I am a woman, and that's

1069
00:51:25,160 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 5: where I would be no matter whether I was doing

1070
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 5: it with the fancy people or the last fancy people,

1071
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 5: like I can't. I can't. And so thank you George

1072
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 5: for handing me for wordlessly demanding more wine, because it

1073
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 5: actually was the reason I went to college. Wow. I

1074
00:51:39,360 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 5: also just get so like shaken when you when you realize,

1075
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:45,600
Speaker 5: as you can think about your life, how there are

1076
00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 5: moments you did not know that were so important and

1077
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,600
Speaker 5: the choice you made was so important.

1078
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: Flighting doors, Yeah, that was one of them.

1079
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:57,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I was sad. I was really really sad

1080
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 5: because I knew they were like, Okay, we get it,

1081
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:02,560
Speaker 5: but it wasn't like Okay, come back and visit. You know.

1082
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 2: It was like you choose us, and you choose that right.

1083
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 5: And that was sad but also kind of freeing because

1084
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 5: I also let go of the longing a little bit.

1085
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:15,600
Speaker 5: I just built them up to be like, you know,

1086
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:18,319
Speaker 5: this sort of like utopian, like wonderful place. Even though

1087
00:52:18,320 --> 00:52:20,440
Speaker 5: I knew horrible things had happened, I still like they

1088
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 5: were home. They were family, right. So there's like a

1089
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,440
Speaker 5: loss there because I realized they weren't and I didn't

1090
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,560
Speaker 5: belong there, but also kind of letting go of something

1091
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 5: that I might have been holding on too, of sadness

1092
00:52:31,719 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 5: that I might have been holding on to.

1093
00:52:33,600 --> 00:52:36,560
Speaker 4: When do you think you started to really process?

1094
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 5: Well, Hilariously, I got to college and having spent you know,

1095
00:52:40,520 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 5: the last seven years erasing it and never talking about it,

1096
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 5: I discovered that at Sarah Lawrence College in nineteen eighty six,

1097
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:51,040
Speaker 5: you grew up in a cult. Everybody's trying to outdo

1098
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:53,319
Speaker 5: each other with like the weirdest origin story, and like,

1099
00:52:53,360 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 5: you know, my mom's therapist and I had an affair,

1100
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,200
Speaker 5: like you know, just like everybody, you know, like everyone

1101
00:52:58,360 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 5: sit down, yeah, and I just but my best frid

1102
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,400
Speaker 5: News to always he would be like, tell about the Moonies.

1103
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 5: Tell about the Moonies, because he would be like, I

1104
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:09,480
Speaker 5: know that your story, you know, just blows everyone else

1105
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:12,000
Speaker 5: out of the water. And so I didn't even really

1106
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,840
Speaker 5: process it because I got so much positive affirmation talking

1107
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:18,839
Speaker 5: about it, but I didn't. It took me a long time.

1108
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 5: I've only ever said that the word cult. And then

1109
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 5: I grew up in a cult. When I was twenty

1110
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 5: three or twenty four and a woman the therapist, I

1111
00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 5: was just telling her about how I grew up. I

1112
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:36,040
Speaker 5: was calling it a commune and she said, that's not

1113
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 5: a commune, that's a cult, and I literally thought rude,

1114
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,320
Speaker 5: and she gave me the I was just like, oh God,

1115
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 5: like people are so weird. And then she gave me

1116
00:53:48,520 --> 00:53:50,840
Speaker 5: the Cult Awareness Network newsletter, and you know, this was

1117
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 5: like nineteen ninety two, ninety three, pre internet, and I

1118
00:53:54,840 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 5: was reading it and I'm thinking like, wow, like these

1119
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,959
Speaker 5: people think they are just calling everyone colts and cults

1120
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,279
Speaker 5: are bad, Like you know, they don't know anything. They're

1121
00:54:02,360 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 5: just being so knee jerk about it. And I just

1122
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,600
Speaker 5: kept thinking about it and like reading this newsletter, and

1123
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:09,920
Speaker 5: then finally I was like, I don't know about this

1124
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 5: word cult to this day, not comfortable calling the people

1125
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 5: I grew up with that because I know they hate

1126
00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:18,840
Speaker 5: it and would hate it and that's just planted in me.

1127
00:54:20,239 --> 00:54:22,760
Speaker 5: But I'm like, they sure do check all the box.

1128
00:54:23,360 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 5: I'm like, wow, cold, because even when I was in college,

1129
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 5: you know, using it as social currency, I wasn't saying

1130
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 5: cult commune was good enough given all the stories. So

1131
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 5: that's when I really started thinking about it and in

1132
00:54:37,000 --> 00:54:39,279
Speaker 5: a real way of like processing what does it mean

1133
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:43,000
Speaker 5: and what does it mean about me? And one of

1134
00:54:43,040 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 5: the things I started to really think about was also

1135
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:47,920
Speaker 5: how I feel like I will and I will always

1136
00:54:47,960 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 5: feel like I grew up in a different culture. It's

1137
00:54:50,000 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 5: almost like growing up in a different country, so that

1138
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,600
Speaker 5: I will never like I'm always kind of fake being

1139
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:59,879
Speaker 5: this person I worked so hard to have no trace

1140
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,160
Speaker 5: of that weirdo. But how that's also that's not you know,

1141
00:55:04,400 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 5: there's something to work on there, because it's not it's

1142
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:09,920
Speaker 5: not entirely healthy, just like reinventing yourself really quick, hiding

1143
00:55:09,920 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 5: everything about you and then being like, oh, it's interesting,

1144
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,440
Speaker 5: oh Donana, dog and Pony, let me show you, but

1145
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,360
Speaker 5: then like not really processing it and.

1146
00:55:16,840 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 2: So really, yeah, So tell us more about your book

1147
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,799
Speaker 2: and where people can find you and your work.

1148
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:28,799
Speaker 5: My book is available, you know, burns, A, Noble, Amazon,

1149
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,520
Speaker 5: et cetera, all the places you can buy books. But

1150
00:55:31,880 --> 00:55:33,799
Speaker 5: I'm going to preach a little bit about how much

1151
00:55:33,840 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 5: I believe in independent bookstores as they are. You know,

1152
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,040
Speaker 5: that's where I've been having events and really getting to

1153
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,440
Speaker 5: fall in love with them all over again. And I

1154
00:55:42,520 --> 00:55:45,760
Speaker 5: highly highly recommend that you I had an independent bookstore,

1155
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 5: which I know I'm saying that as if I'm not

1156
00:55:47,560 --> 00:55:48,960
Speaker 5: a person who will just be like, I want that

1157
00:55:48,960 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 5: book and just click on Amazon. And I'm not sancremonious

1158
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:55,719
Speaker 5: about this. I try really hard so that and my word.

1159
00:55:55,760 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 5: I'm currently working on an adaptation of it for to

1160
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:04,320
Speaker 5: be a film of the book, thinking about thinking about

1161
00:56:04,600 --> 00:56:07,719
Speaker 5: kind of forming a podcast around my story, which I

1162
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 5: want to ask you offline up more about sort of

1163
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:16,399
Speaker 5: your journey and really thinking about a next book what

1164
00:56:16,440 --> 00:56:21,040
Speaker 5: that would look like. And honestly, every time I go

1165
00:56:21,080 --> 00:56:24,880
Speaker 5: to one of these discussion group support groups for women

1166
00:56:25,840 --> 00:56:28,480
Speaker 5: like me, like us who were raised in these environments,

1167
00:56:29,080 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 5: I do I just quit everything and actually become a

1168
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:34,560
Speaker 5: mental health expert who's in this field because it is

1169
00:56:34,600 --> 00:56:38,960
Speaker 5: so desperately needed. You know, I just really I feel,

1170
00:56:39,480 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 5: you know, I feel like it's this huge hole that

1171
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:46,600
Speaker 5: we're slowly becoming aware of in that's it is. It

1172
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:50,040
Speaker 5: intersects with human trafficking and intersects with domestic violence, and

1173
00:56:50,040 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 5: that all of that work could help everyone, not just

1174
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:58,000
Speaker 5: people and cults, but starting with humanizing. So I don't know,

1175
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 5: I'm really busy, So I don't if I have time

1176
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 5: to go to school and we go with this. But

1177
00:57:02,160 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 5: also it's not even a field. You can really become

1178
00:57:04,000 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 5: an expert in any program, not in this country. There's

1179
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:08,680
Speaker 5: one in Uhon in England.

1180
00:57:08,760 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 6: Yeah, so yeah, I'm very busy and it's very it's

1181
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:16,880
Speaker 6: been very interesting also to it seems like the number

1182
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 6: one space to talk about books and especially called.

1183
00:57:18,920 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 5: Related books are podcasts. So it's learning about different approaches

1184
00:57:23,880 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 5: and how I how many there are? And yeah, so

1185
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 5: I'm I'm but I'm also part of the Writer's Union

1186
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 5: and a part of the Actors' Union, and both of

1187
00:57:34,520 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 5: those things are on strike. So what would be the

1188
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 5: smart thing to do? Just write my own thing and

1189
00:57:38,960 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 5: hope that we don't all have to lose our apartments

1190
00:57:41,600 --> 00:57:44,360
Speaker 5: before we get some things going makes sense?

1191
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:48,960
Speaker 2: And amen, let we get paid. Are you on social media?

1192
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 5: I am on social media, not not so big on Twitter.

1193
00:57:54,760 --> 00:57:56,960
Speaker 5: I don't. I've never I try really hard on Twitter.

1194
00:57:56,960 --> 00:57:58,280
Speaker 5: I don't really know how to do it. I mean,

1195
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 5: I get it. I'm not like that, but I have

1196
00:58:01,600 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 5: a hard time with it. But Instagram, yes, very much. Instagram,

1197
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 5: which is my name, you will see if you think

1198
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:08,960
Speaker 5: it might be a fake account, you will know it's

1199
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,959
Speaker 5: not because you will see endless photos of my dog

1200
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:19,080
Speaker 5: Marbles and me shamelessly using her to promote my book.

1201
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,720
Speaker 2: You've been really good about posting reels and like in

1202
00:58:23,760 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 2: the TikTok format, which I'm like taking taking notes.

1203
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 5: I would like to give a shout out to my

1204
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 5: sisters who have been my social media team, who have

1205
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 5: taught me so much and I never would have been

1206
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 5: able to do it with that. My sister Julie Katiana

1207
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 5: and my sister Anlin Lanier, thank you because I'm like,

1208
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:42,240
Speaker 5: you guys should start a company.

1209
00:58:42,240 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 2: Can I borrow?

1210
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 5: They're really good that they both have jobs, but they're

1211
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 5: really good at this and they really you know, I'm

1212
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 5: the oldest, and all of a sudden, I feel like

1213
00:58:50,280 --> 00:58:53,040
Speaker 5: my youngest sister is my boss. Like I got eight

1214
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 5: hundred likes on something and she was like, this is

1215
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,280
Speaker 5: the kind of like, so I'm gonna want to see

1216
00:58:56,320 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 5: moving forward. I'm like, don't say, moving forward to me,

1217
00:58:59,080 --> 00:59:00,000
Speaker 5: I've changed your diapers.

1218
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 4: That's awesome. I love it.

1219
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining us today.

1220
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 5: Thank you guys.

1221
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 2: When the world didn't end, go buy it from a

1222
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,880
Speaker 2: local bookstore like Skylight in Los Plus. And that concludes

1223
00:59:12,920 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: our interview with Guinevere. And we have to wrap up

1224
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:16,560
Speaker 2: quickly today.

1225
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:19,120
Speaker 4: But would I join a call if she started one?

1226
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:19,560
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1227
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 2: I know you would. I know you would, would you No?

1228
00:59:23,320 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 2: But I would like, really, I would like hang out

1229
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 2: on the outskirts and like try to hang out with

1230
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:27,640
Speaker 2: the cult. You know.

1231
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:32,120
Speaker 1: Well, we're so grateful you guys. Listen to another episode

1232
00:59:32,160 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: of Trust Me. Please rate up five stars.

1233
00:59:34,800 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 4: Come follow us on social media and remember.

1234
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 1: To follow your gut, watch out for red flags, and

1235
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:42,320
Speaker 1: never ever trust me.

1236
00:59:42,880 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 4: Bye bye.

1237
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,160
Speaker 2: Trust Me is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1238
00:59:50,200 --> 00:59:51,440
Speaker 2: Steve Delamater.

1239
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:53,120
Speaker 5: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1240
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,439
Speaker 2: And our theme song was composed by Holly amber Church.

1241
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:58,560
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1242
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cult Pod, or on TikTok at

1243
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 1: Trustne Cult Podcast.

1244
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1245
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:10,720
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Bebraham

1246
01:00:10,800 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1247
01:00:12,000 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word