Speaker 1: A warning.
Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide
Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If
Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to
Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help
Speaker 2: is available.
Speaker 1: It felt very real what she was telling.
Speaker 2: Me, A stunning confession before Kelly Moffatt ever comes forward
Speaker 2: to authorities.
Speaker 1: I'm still a loss for words for it, because it's,
Speaker 1: first of all, it's something I don't talk about. It's
Speaker 1: something I'm not comfortable with. I hate that I even
Speaker 1: have had to talk about it more than I've ever
Speaker 1: needed to in my whole life.
Speaker 3: I'm Leah Rothman.
Speaker 2: This is The Real Killer, Episode eleven and Justice for
Speaker 2: who Deserves It. Before we get into this week's episode,
Speaker 2: A quick note about something in our last episode. I
Speaker 2: mentioned that back in nineteen ninety seven, no testing had
Speaker 2: been performed on Anastasia's hands for trace metals. Turns out
Speaker 2: there was material collected from underneath her fingernails that wasn't
Speaker 2: tested either. In twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team had
Speaker 2: that material tested for DNA by the Kansas City Police
Speaker 2: crime Lab. The Examiner wrote in their report that two
Speaker 2: of the samples had no foreign genetic material detected, meaning
Speaker 2: what was found belonged to anastasia, and the last sample
Speaker 2: was too small to detect anything usable.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Also in the last episode, we shared some of the
Speaker 2: affidavits Byron's legal team has obtained from the medical examiner,
Speaker 2: the judge, and the defense attorney. We also shared some
Speaker 2: of Angie Giannino's affidavit. Angie and Kelly met in late
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine early two thousand, when Kelly was seventeen
Speaker 2: and Angie was a couple of years older. Angie is
Speaker 2: the friend who on May fifteenth, two thousand, was pulled
Speaker 2: over for speeding. Remember, Kelly was in the passenger seat
Speaker 2: through a bottle of alcohol out the car window and
Speaker 2: was eventually arrested for littering, given shock, jail time, and probation.
Speaker 2: Angie was also at Kelly's house when the June fifth
Speaker 2: recorded phone call took place. Today, Angie is a mother
Speaker 2: and works as an IT solution analyst in the Kansas
Speaker 2: City area. Angie agrees to speak with me and share
Speaker 2: what she remembers about Kelly, their friendship and so much
Speaker 2: more so, how.
Speaker 3: Did you meet Kelly.
Speaker 1: I had met her at a party. It was a
Speaker 1: rave essentially, and we just like connected immediately, Like she
Speaker 1: was just a ray of sunshine and I felt her
Speaker 1: vibe and she felt mine and it was magical.
Speaker 3: How does a friendship flourish?
Speaker 1: What I liked about her and the reason why the
Speaker 1: friendship even continued was that she was just so genuine
Speaker 1: and she was just so sweet, and she really cared
Speaker 1: about you. So when she talked to you, you mattered,
Speaker 1: and she really listened to you, and she was very intelligent.
Speaker 1: We had a passion to also go enjoy ourselves, so
Speaker 1: we kind of followed where these parties went and you know,
Speaker 1: kind of went into that scene for a bit. But
Speaker 1: we had a blast. We would dance, we would laugh.
Speaker 1: I mean, it was just so much fun.
Speaker 3: Uh it was Kelly in school at that point.
Speaker 1: Or no or no, she was not in school. We
Speaker 1: never talked about school. That's weird. Like we talked about everything,
Speaker 1: like about life, philosophy, Like we were really into Avante
Speaker 1: Guard film music, like none of like the real mainstream stuff.
Speaker 1: Like she was so mature, like her whole person, her
Speaker 1: whole aura. She's just a very old soul.
Speaker 3: When did you first learn of Byron case.
Speaker 1: It was in her bedroom at her parents' house. Like
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was Bao house we were
Speaker 1: listening to or could have been the Cure. I mean
Speaker 1: we just just a song made her think of him,
Speaker 1: and like so she spoke of him in a very
Speaker 1: light manner, initially.
Speaker 2: A reminder at this point Kelly and Byron are no
Speaker 2: longer together before and what did she say about the relationship,
Speaker 2: But she.
Speaker 1: Was just telling me like this, like he was this
Speaker 1: older man and he was just so beautiful, and he
Speaker 1: thought she was so beautiful, and they were just enamored
Speaker 1: with each other, and it was like this magical love
Speaker 1: story and they were just like obsessed with one another.
Speaker 1: I was like, wow, she goes yeah. I'm like, how
Speaker 1: did you meet him? She's like in Westport? And I
Speaker 1: was like, well, how old were you? And she was like,
Speaker 1: I was like thirteen, And I was like, what what
Speaker 1: do you do with Westport at thirteen? By yourself? I
Speaker 1: was just amazed by the fact that she was down there.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember where she met him in Westport,
Speaker 1: but she met him and they just immediately like had
Speaker 1: this like loving like you know, I don't know, mystical
Speaker 1: love if you will. That was the assumption I was
Speaker 1: under when I heard about him. She's like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we would listen to all this music and dance and
Speaker 1: she would do all these like dramatic things with her hands,
Speaker 1: you know, very gothy, goth ass kind of vibes with it.
Speaker 4: So was Kelly goth Yeah, she was, But I was two,
Speaker 4: so it wasn't like I'm like, okay, like I love
Speaker 4: the same music and a lot of the same movies.
Speaker 1: So she had a dark esthetic. I wouldn't say, I
Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, but she was just
Speaker 1: she had a very light dark about her.
Speaker 2: Over time and She's says she notices some changes in
Speaker 2: Kelly's behavior.
Speaker 1: So I saw some of the cracks in the pavement
Speaker 1: as time went on in our friendship. Her and I,
Speaker 1: like I said, we went to raves. So when we
Speaker 1: went to raves, we tried some of the things there,
Speaker 1: so that would be like ecstasy, you know, but like
Speaker 1: some of those things and like you know, smoke weed
Speaker 1: and those were the things, at least to my knowledge,
Speaker 1: we were doing. But I didn't know that behind the
Speaker 1: scenes there were things going on with Kelly and what
Speaker 1: she was doing. So I didn't know that it almost
Speaker 1: became an everyday thing that she was drinking vodka every day,
Speaker 1: functioning alcoholic. I didn't know this. I was drinking, but
Speaker 1: I wasn't drinking to that extreme extent like I was like, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's to drink, you know. And then she was dating
Speaker 1: this guy named Jim, and I don't know if it's
Speaker 1: just up and down like relationship, but then I saw
Speaker 1: more things happen, like her drug use.
Speaker 2: So one day, you and Kelly are hanging out and
Speaker 2: she says what she's.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, let's go visit.
Speaker 2: Him, and she's talking about Byron.
Speaker 1: I think he's still I don't know if she was
Speaker 1: communicating with him or how that all even transpired.
Speaker 4: How.
Speaker 1: I was like, final, take you because I had a car,
Speaker 1: so I'll come with you. So we pulled up to
Speaker 1: his apartment typical Westport apartment, you know, midtown apartment, and
Speaker 1: we went in and like immediately it was so cold,
Speaker 1: like and not like temperature like I'm freezing, I need
Speaker 1: a coat, but like it just dissolute. It felt very cold,
Speaker 1: like very very cold. And we enter into the into
Speaker 1: his place, and I immediately feel insanely uncomfortable, like I
Speaker 1: don't feel like I belong there. I don't know what's
Speaker 1: going on, but I don't feel very comfortable at all.
Speaker 1: So I proceed to have some drinks because it would
Speaker 1: probably keep me at a decent composure so I could
Speaker 1: handle the situation. I didn't even know what to expect. Nothing.
Speaker 1: I just felt a very icy, cold energy within that place.
Speaker 1: So they immediately never lose eye contact and just talk.
Speaker 1: They're talking, They're talking, talking, talking, you know, I'm just
Speaker 1: sitting on the couch and letting that happen. I think
Speaker 1: a roommate comes in. I don't know if the roommate went
Speaker 1: to the room or left. I don't know. Again, I
Speaker 1: just was hoping we could get out of there fast,
Speaker 1: because what I envisioned of this man was nothing that
Speaker 1: I felt or saw with my own two eyes that
Speaker 1: Kelly had glamorized early on.
Speaker 2: And Kelly and Byron are talking NonStop. How do they
Speaker 2: seem with each other? Do they seem comfortable?
Speaker 1: Are they intense like body language of mimic each other,
Speaker 1: like like almost as if they were I don't know,
Speaker 1: like there was definitely there was definitely still a connection
Speaker 1: between the two. I couldn't decipher, you know, feelings were involved,
Speaker 1: but it was like they were connected and they were talking,
Speaker 1: so they were into what they were talking. My back
Speaker 1: was towards them. I'm on their food, on his futon
Speaker 1: couch whatever it was, and they were behind me talking
Speaker 1: and I think she sat down over here once and
Speaker 1: talked to him, and then she got back up and talked.
Speaker 1: They were talking out loud, there was no whispering. I
Speaker 1: just don't remember what they talked about because I was
Speaker 1: so like, I want to get out of here, Like
Speaker 1: I just blocked because I didn't think it was important
Speaker 1: for me to listen to what they were talking about.
Speaker 2: I think Byron was about to move to Saint Louis.
Speaker 2: Do you remember if there were moving boxes or if
Speaker 2: Kelly said anything about what are the boxes here for?
Speaker 2: And he's like, I'm moving to Saint Louis? Do you
Speaker 2: remember any of that?
Speaker 1: Honestly, the only memories I have are walking into that
Speaker 1: place and it feeling the vibe that I got of
Speaker 1: it feeling very icy cold.
Speaker 2: Did as you were there for a little bit, did
Speaker 2: it get a little bit more comfortable, did you feel
Speaker 2: a little bit more at ease or did you feel
Speaker 2: that way?
Speaker 3: Did you feel uncomfortable the entire time you were there?
Speaker 1: I think after my second shot I felt better. To
Speaker 1: be honest, I don't think that the vibe ever changed.
Speaker 1: So how long are you at Byron's? Roughly could have
Speaker 1: been an hour?
Speaker 3: And what happens when you leave?
Speaker 1: Remember we left and she told me, let's just go
Speaker 1: to a park. I need to talk to you, and
Speaker 1: I said, okay. This was directly after leaving his house.
Speaker 1: We pull over in a park there in Kansas City,
Speaker 1: not far from his place, and it what she tells
Speaker 1: me in that car made my heart drop. So she
Speaker 1: tells me of what had happened to the two people
Speaker 1: that were murdered and what she witnessed, and I just
Speaker 1: couldn't believe it, Like why, first of all, take me
Speaker 1: to a place of someone who would have done that
Speaker 1: to somebody like what I had. I'm still a loss
Speaker 1: of words for having to experience something just secondhand like that,
Speaker 1: just to hear someone tell me that, like, it wasn't
Speaker 1: a movie, it wasn't a book, it was someone who
Speaker 1: actually saw something so terrible happened. She tells me the
Speaker 1: whole story, and.
Speaker 3: Tell me, can you tell me what she told you?
Speaker 3: What did she What did Kelly tell you?
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, Like it's awful. Like
Speaker 1: she said that she her and Byron would hang out
Speaker 1: with Anastasia and the scirling Monastasia and Justin they were
Speaker 1: a couple, like they hung out with them and a
Speaker 1: couple other people. But I know do have their names
Speaker 1: because of what that story And it's not a story.
Speaker 1: I mean, this happened to somebody, to people's lives are
Speaker 1: gone now, you know, like telling me about what had happened.
Speaker 1: So she told me, I mean, sorry, I'm getting all
Speaker 1: jumbled here because I mean, this is intense. So she
Speaker 1: told me that she witnessed Byron murder Anastasia and how
Speaker 1: he did that was by She was in the front
Speaker 1: seat and he told Anastasia to get out of the
Speaker 1: car in front of the car, and then he went
Speaker 1: to the back of the car and pulled out a
Speaker 1: shotgun or a gun, I'm not sure what kind of weapon,
Speaker 1: but it was a gun and killed and Kelly was
Speaker 1: in the front seat witnessing this. Again, she could have
Speaker 1: been in the front seat, she could have been out
Speaker 1: of the car, but she witnessed it.
Speaker 2: And so you your friend Kelly tells you that she
Speaker 2: witnessed her boyfriend murder, her friend murder, and what do
Speaker 2: you what is going through you?
Speaker 1: Fear and sadness discussed and like every emotion you could
Speaker 1: possibly go through.
Speaker 2: But there's more and it involves Justin.
Speaker 1: That was kind of a gray area because she said
Speaker 1: that he was found like a week later in a warehouse,
Speaker 1: and like in DeSoto, Kansas. I believe she didn't witness
Speaker 1: what happened with Justin, so she couldn't be one hundred
Speaker 1: percent certain about that, but she definitely, she definitely felt
Speaker 1: that he had some Byron had something to do with
Speaker 1: Justin's murder.
Speaker 2: A reminder, Justin's death was ruled a suicide. I think
Speaker 2: you said when we spoke last, like you were almost
Speaker 2: kind of mad at her that she brought you to
Speaker 2: Byron's house.
Speaker 1: After you learn I was, I was shocked and I
Speaker 1: was pissed, and afterwards I just was like, what the
Speaker 1: hell are you doing? Why would you put me in
Speaker 1: any harms way like that? Like what if he went
Speaker 1: crazy and did something to us at his place. I
Speaker 1: don't know him, I didn't know anything like this about him,
Speaker 1: Like I was, I mean, there were just so many
Speaker 1: thoughts going through my head. And then just to know
Speaker 1: that that had happened and she had told me. I mean,
Speaker 1: I was just sick, like so such a barrage of
Speaker 1: emotions pouring out of me, like I I was, And
Speaker 1: absolutely I was like why would you even bring someone?
Speaker 1: But I felt that she in just retrospect, she probably
Speaker 1: felt safe with me there because we were the closest
Speaker 1: to one another.
Speaker 2: She must not have been afraid of Byron the way
Speaker 2: you described like their interaction at his apartment.
Speaker 1: She wasn't. She didn't seem like she was afraid. But
Speaker 1: I don't know if she was putting on a brave face.
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like get me to the nearest place
Speaker 1: where I could sit I needed. I just felt very uncomfortable,
Speaker 1: Like it just felt like a very dark force, if
Speaker 1: you will, Like I just felt a very dark energy
Speaker 1: in the home. I mean, that's the best way to
Speaker 1: describe it.
Speaker 3: You said you needed to drink. Was Kelly drinking at
Speaker 3: that at the apartment too? With Laren?
Speaker 1: Oh? I'm sure she was always drinking. Unfortunately, did you
Speaker 1: guys drink?
Speaker 2: Did you drink when you went to the park and
Speaker 2: she went to go tell you, you.
Speaker 1: Know, I think we did. I think no, I think
Speaker 1: we did have a bottle in the car, And I
Speaker 1: got to remember all this stuff, But I think I
Speaker 1: remember going to the park. I remember her telling me
Speaker 1: what happened, and I'm sure we had was in the car.
Speaker 1: Sure there was like vodka in the car. If not,
Speaker 1: we went and got some probably after. It's awful.
Speaker 2: What what had or had you discussed Anastasia's death and
Speaker 2: Justin's deaths, their deaths before.
Speaker 3: Or when did you first learn?
Speaker 5: No?
Speaker 1: Yeah, she'd never mentioned in the car.
Speaker 2: She'd never in your year and a half or year
Speaker 2: plus of friendship at that point, she'd never mentioned that
Speaker 2: one of her friends was murdered and her boyfriend was
Speaker 2: also found dead.
Speaker 1: No, never once.
Speaker 3: How when Kelly's telling you this is she how is she?
Speaker 6: Like?
Speaker 3: What is her demeanor?
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm in my like I'm in my seat,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm the driver's seat. And then she's like
Speaker 1: facing me like this and telling me what's happening. So
Speaker 1: she's she's kind of catty corner to me, and she's
Speaker 1: telling me like crying, like just it all was a floodgate,
Speaker 1: and I felt the floodgates, like she just it all floodgated,
Speaker 1: all this information, all these things she's held in. I
Speaker 1: could feel the release of something that needed to be said,
Speaker 1: and she told me. You know, I think the main
Speaker 1: thing was me wanting to comfort her because that's a
Speaker 1: big admission, and she's bawling and freaking out, and I
Speaker 1: was like, my friend is a lot of pain, and
Speaker 1: she just admitted something so terrible, and to have witnessed
Speaker 1: something so terrible it was, it was just an awful
Speaker 1: I felt for her.
Speaker 2: I did did Kelly say anything else about what happened
Speaker 2: the night that Anastasia was murdered?
Speaker 1: She did, She did tell me the details, but I
Speaker 1: honestly don't remember them.
Speaker 3: That's fine.
Speaker 2: You said that there was no part of you that
Speaker 2: questioned what Kelly was telling you.
Speaker 3: You believed her.
Speaker 1: One, yes, yeah, I mean I had no reason to
Speaker 1: not believe her. She didn't lie to me. She was
Speaker 1: a great friend to me.
Speaker 3: And you said she'd never lied to you.
Speaker 1: That I mean nothing that I ever caught nothing that
Speaker 1: I was like, oh you know you lied to me?
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she was pretty honest. I mean she was
Speaker 1: up straightforward, you know, very I mean she was.
Speaker 2: Honest, Angie says. After that day, Kelly's drug use gets worse.
Speaker 1: So that started the decline of things because I'm like,
Speaker 1: I can't follow that. I can't be a part of that.
Speaker 1: That's not me. So once that started, that's when our
Speaker 1: friendship kind of started. We were like this and then
Speaker 1: you know, we were so close, and then we just
Speaker 1: dissipated slowly, Okay.
Speaker 2: And then so she goes into rehab. Do you know,
Speaker 2: is it like multiple times or is it just one
Speaker 2: time before getting to going to Byron's house.
Speaker 3: That one day.
Speaker 1: She may have gone to rehab before that, but I
Speaker 1: don't remember. Excuse me, I don't remember when her first
Speaker 1: stint was other than when I was friends with her,
Speaker 1: Like the like crack use became out of hand when
Speaker 1: after we went to his house. But really the catalyst
Speaker 1: was going to Byrons. That's where Kelly started spiraling.
Speaker 3: Meaning the drugs.
Speaker 1: The drugs. Yeah, so she just went off that. She
Speaker 1: went off that end there about that deep end, and
Speaker 1: that was what her coping mechanism was. I think seeing
Speaker 1: him triggered her. Telling me what happened triggered her, and
Speaker 1: that she was already triggered because she was already drinking
Speaker 1: daily behind closed doors. Again, things I didn't realize till later.
Speaker 1: So after that, it was her going down that dark
Speaker 1: demise into drugs, you know, and then it all kind
Speaker 1: of went to where she then went into rehab and
Speaker 1: then her admission had happened there.
Speaker 2: So timeline wise, it seems around June or July of
Speaker 2: two thousand and Kelly and Angie go to Byron's house
Speaker 2: and Kelly confesses to witnessing Byron kill Anastasia. Then two
Speaker 2: three months later, in September of two thousand, Kelly confesses
Speaker 2: to her drug counselor and the authorities are called.
Speaker 3: Did she.
Speaker 2: Share with you when she came forward and spoke with police?
Speaker 1: And yeah, she told me she told the counselor and
Speaker 1: that that ball is going to start rolling basically like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, like, did you ever
Speaker 2: consider going to the authorities?
Speaker 7: Yeah?
Speaker 1: If I had time to really mull it over and
Speaker 1: not then get swept into another thing that I had
Speaker 1: to now be concerned for my friend safety and life,
Speaker 1: I probably would have done that. You know, I probably
Speaker 1: would have taken those steps. But it was again, the
Speaker 1: two years were so extreme, so many extreme things happened.
Speaker 1: So this was like the latter part of the extremity.
Speaker 1: It was her addiction or turned into addiction or I
Speaker 1: don't know when it all started, but it completely spiraled
Speaker 1: out of control after she told me what had happened.
Speaker 2: So you were interviewed by Byron's previous attorney, Cindy Short
Speaker 2: I think in twenty sixteen with.
Speaker 1: My very first phone call, yeah, and.
Speaker 2: Then again by his current legal team last year twenty
Speaker 2: twenty three.
Speaker 1: So when you spoke with Cindy Women, yes, yeah, when
Speaker 1: you spoke.
Speaker 3: With Great, what do you make of that?
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm like, why do you guys keep
Speaker 1: asking me, like what did I have to do with anything?
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. I feel very put out. That
Speaker 1: was the initial feeling because I don't even know these people.
Speaker 1: I was told this in a car and after that,
Speaker 1: the whole friendship group, you know, it just went south.
Speaker 1: She went south at all Wins, So I could they
Speaker 1: couldn't have been kinder people, especially like put in a
Speaker 1: cold And my take on it is, I get that
Speaker 1: they need to do this to you. You're not on
Speaker 1: anyone's side. You're trying to just hear the facts and
Speaker 1: you're trying to, you know, hear the accounts and stories
Speaker 1: from everyone, and I find that great. That's why I'm
Speaker 1: very comfortable in talking to you about this again. I
Speaker 1: can't I'm not pointing any fingers in anyone because I
Speaker 1: don't I wasn't there, I don't know. I can only
Speaker 1: go off of what I was told by a close
Speaker 1: friend of mine at the time and what I felt,
Speaker 1: And that's all I can go off of.
Speaker 2: Have you ever wondered if perhaps Byron Case is innocent?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've wondered.
Speaker 3: I have.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard because I you know, people can convince
Speaker 1: me that Kelly's lying. People can convince me all sorts
Speaker 1: of things. I can only go off how I feel
Speaker 1: and what I have felt in the present moments when
Speaker 1: they were happening. And for me, I didn't doubt her,
Speaker 1: you know, because it just felt so real and how
Speaker 1: she spiraled like that, that for me was like validity.
Speaker 1: That she is losing her mind because of this admission.
Speaker 1: It's not because of guilt. It's because maybe it was
Speaker 1: guilt of holding on to it so long. You know
Speaker 1: that she never came forward with the true, her true
Speaker 1: version of it, you know, and she's been holding on
Speaker 1: to that, so that's eating her alives. So she's got
Speaker 1: to do something to fill that void. And that's what
Speaker 1: I felt when she went down the spiral. People I've
Speaker 1: heard painted all sorts of pictures about her that she's
Speaker 1: been doing it for ears and she was already, you know,
Speaker 1: a drug addict and all of that. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know that to be true. I can only
Speaker 1: call the two years that we were friends. She was great,
Speaker 1: the glimpses I got to have with her and one
Speaker 1: of a very dear friend of mine at that time.
Speaker 1: But I want justice for who deserves it, and I
Speaker 1: just I can't, like I said, no, for sure what
Speaker 1: has happened other than what I again have been told.
Speaker 2: Angie says she and Kelly are no longer in touch.
Speaker 1: It sucks that all of this happened. It sucked to
Speaker 1: witness a bright, shiny light just kind of like flash
Speaker 1: out like at that time. Like it sucks to all
Speaker 1: of it, and it's like it hurts because it's I
Speaker 1: can only imagine. Obviously there's people who can't speak for themselves,
Speaker 1: they're not alive anymore. There's I mean, it's it's insane,
Speaker 1: to me that any of this that my brain has
Speaker 1: to compartmentalize. I mean, people go through worse trauma in
Speaker 1: terms of they're not alive, or they're incarcerated, or they're
Speaker 1: the witness, or it's just it's a lot, so my
Speaker 1: brain doesn't always handle certain aspects so well, not to mention,
Speaker 1: I did drink a lot then you know I was
Speaker 1: going to rave, so I mean my brain wasn't. I
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you everything because of the things I partook
Speaker 1: in at that time as well. So if it were
Speaker 1: happening and it was all clear, like you know, I
Speaker 1: would be like, oh yeah, I could tell you all
Speaker 1: the things that were said, but it's just hard to
Speaker 1: remember it all, and also I'm trying to forget it.
Speaker 2: Angie Giannino just shared a very interesting story about what
Speaker 2: happened when she and Kelly Moffatt went to Byron's apartment
Speaker 2: one day and what Kelly told her after they left,
Speaker 2: and and she remembered Byron's roommate being there that day.
Speaker 2: The woman who was there actually was not Byron's roommate
Speaker 2: but his friend, Jamie Jamie Reid, who today runs a
Speaker 2: nonprofit related to LGB and trans identity agrees to talk
Speaker 2: with me about her friendship with Byron, which began when
Speaker 2: they met at a coffeehouse in late nineteen ninety nine
Speaker 2: early two thousand and what she remembers about Kelly and
Speaker 2: the day she and her friend came over.
Speaker 3: Yeah, what were some of your impressions early impressions of.
Speaker 5: Byron quirky, creative, incredibly smart, really caring. I think we
Speaker 5: were both writing a lot of poetry at the time,
Speaker 5: so passing poems back and forth and editing and thinking
Speaker 5: about creative processes and just like hanging out. I just
Speaker 5: thought Byron was a really good friend and was just
Speaker 5: a really good person.
Speaker 2: What did Byron tell you about what happened to Anastasia
Speaker 2: and Justin.
Speaker 5: I think that what first happened is somebody alluded to
Speaker 5: some kind of like, oh, it's interesting that y'all are friends,
Speaker 5: and I was like, what are you talking about? I
Speaker 5: think I mentioned something to Byron about it, and he
Speaker 5: was like, oh, and told me kind of the background
Speaker 5: story and was really what I took from what I
Speaker 5: understood was that there was a lot of grief that
Speaker 5: Byron still had.
Speaker 1: I could tell that he.
Speaker 5: Cared about Justin and Anastasia and Kelly, and that there
Speaker 5: was still sadness over it. What I just kind of
Speaker 5: interpreted at the time was that this was a couple
Speaker 5: who had been really volatile, Justin and Anastasia. And my
Speaker 5: interpretation was Justin had killed his girlfriend and then killed himself,
Speaker 5: and that's kind of what I thought had happened. I
Speaker 5: don't remember Byron ever like saying it like that, but
Speaker 5: it just all kind of made sense that that was
Speaker 5: what it occurred, and to me, it just seemed like
Speaker 5: a young tragedy.
Speaker 3: What did Byron tell you about Kelly Moffatt.
Speaker 5: Byron still really cared for Kelly. I could tell that
Speaker 5: pretty quickly. Byron had a lot of distress over Kelly's
Speaker 5: drug addiction, Kelly's life circumstances, and where Kelly was at
Speaker 5: the time.
Speaker 1: And it seemed to me.
Speaker 5: That Byron was trying to create some I don't think
Speaker 5: we use the words back then, but create some boundaries
Speaker 5: and was trying to still be a kind, caring person,
Speaker 5: but maybe create some distance. I was around when Kelly
Speaker 5: would call, and so I would hear, like a one
Speaker 5: sided com I would like hear Byron side of a
Speaker 5: phone call. Byron just kind of saying like no, I
Speaker 5: can't give you money. I'm sorry that you're I'm sorry
Speaker 5: this is going on for you, Like I really wish
Speaker 5: you the best. I really can't talk right now, you know,
Speaker 5: I gotta go wanting like basic needs, Like it just
Speaker 5: seemed like a kid who like couldn't take care of himself,
Speaker 5: like I haven't eaten, you know, like you need to
Speaker 5: take a shower, I need money, like like an addict
Speaker 5: kind of would How often would Kelly call regularly enough
Speaker 5: for me to think, why are you still taking these calls?
Speaker 5: This is absurd, Like you don't need to you don't
Speaker 5: need to talk to her anymore, Like this is too much.
Speaker 5: I also like in retrospect now being like forty something,
Speaker 5: these were not like phone calls at like two in
Speaker 5: the afternoon, like a reasonable time. This would have been
Speaker 5: like we were up super late now like she would
Speaker 5: be calling, which would have been essentially like the middle
Speaker 5: of the night times too. That just don't really make
Speaker 5: a ton of sense. I just wished that he could
Speaker 5: have like cut her off, I feel like even sooner.
Speaker 5: But I think he was like in the process of
Speaker 5: trying to figure out how to do that.
Speaker 2: Although Jamie says she is there for several of Kelly's calls,
Speaker 2: she only meets her once in person. It's the day
Speaker 2: Angie described earlier.
Speaker 5: So we were at Byron's apartment and she had come
Speaker 5: to the back door, which is like the door that
Speaker 5: you know we would park at, like back in the parking.
Speaker 5: But she came to the back door, which is right
Speaker 5: off the kitchen, and at first it sounded like Byron
Speaker 5: was kind of trying to keep her at the door
Speaker 5: and was like, no, you know, like I really can't
Speaker 5: help you, Like I really can't talk to you right now,
Speaker 5: kind of a thing. She came in. She was with
Speaker 5: a friend, right he was with a friend, and it
Speaker 5: was it was it was weird. She like was demanding
Speaker 5: and just seemed to like be that person you kind
Speaker 5: of want to, like, Okay, let's let's wrap this up.
Speaker 5: Let's I can't really do what you're wanting from me.
Speaker 5: We were playing a board game. I remember that, and
Speaker 5: I and I remember that. He told her that he
Speaker 5: was going to move and that we were going to
Speaker 5: move to Saint Louis. That's when she got angry and
Speaker 5: she threatened and said, you can't do that. You can't leave,
Speaker 5: you know, you have to you have to take care
Speaker 5: of me kind of a thing. And then she said,
Speaker 5: if you move, I'm going to make your life a
Speaker 5: living hell. And Firon was like, we really got to
Speaker 5: be done with this conversation, like I've friends over, like
Speaker 5: it's time to wrap this up.
Speaker 3: But she how did she take the news that he
Speaker 3: was moving to Saint Louis.
Speaker 5: She was pissed, I mean she was, Yeah, she was angry,
Speaker 5: and she acted like this lifeline was being taken away,
Speaker 5: like how you can't do this to me, like this
Speaker 5: is yeah, you have to be here for me.
Speaker 3: How long? How long were Kelly and her friend there?
Speaker 5: I don't know. I can't really recall a timeline. I
Speaker 5: can recall like how she came in kind of tone,
Speaker 5: and I remember kind of the anger that she got
Speaker 5: once he told her that we were going to move.
Speaker 2: Were they were they drinking? Do you remember Kelly Byron
Speaker 2: her friend they were drinking?
Speaker 1: Or no?
Speaker 5: No, I don't remember Byron drinking.
Speaker 3: Do you remember if Kelly was No, I don't.
Speaker 5: Think Kelly was drinking. She seemed disregulated, like up and down.
Speaker 5: And I want to say I want to use the
Speaker 5: word like squirrelly, like couldn't sit still and like up
Speaker 5: and down and dah dah da da da and like
Speaker 5: like wanting to like run the whole show too.
Speaker 3: And how was her friend acting? Do you remember? No,
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I mean, did she act like she
Speaker 3: wanted to be there or just aloof or.
Speaker 5: I really don't remember the friend.
Speaker 2: How were you with Kelly? Did you have any like
Speaker 2: interactions with Kelly.
Speaker 3: Or very very much like not really at all. No,
Speaker 3: that day you didn't really talk to each other. No,
Speaker 3: I had nothing to say to her, and so Kelly
Speaker 3: mostly spoke with Byron.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was kind of like that other her friend,
Speaker 5: Like I was that friend.
Speaker 3: Yeah, quiet in the.
Speaker 2: Room, Jamie says. After Byron tries for a while to
Speaker 2: get Kelly and her friend to leave, they finally do.
Speaker 2: After Kelly and her friend left, do you remember what
Speaker 2: the conversation was with Byron?
Speaker 5: Uh? Similar to the other conversations we had had at
Speaker 5: that point, which was you don't have to deal with this.
Speaker 1: I feel like he.
Speaker 5: Was just too nice sometimes, that he was allowing that
Speaker 5: this horrible thing had happened, and that he had been
Speaker 5: trying to deal with it and process it and find
Speaker 5: ways to move on with his life and just heal,
Speaker 5: and that this person wanted to just keep sucking him
Speaker 5: back in, and just he just needed to get out
Speaker 5: of there, like it wasn't gonna she wasn't going to stop,
Speaker 5: like she wasn't going to stop harassing him and and
Speaker 5: making demands of him, and that he just needed to go.
Speaker 2: I asked Jamie what she thinks about what Angie told
Speaker 2: me that after they left Byron, Angie and Kelly went
Speaker 2: to a park and Kelly confessed she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia,
Speaker 2: and that Kelly did this before she ever came forward
Speaker 2: to police.
Speaker 3: So the friend who came over her name's Angie. I
Speaker 3: interviewed her.
Speaker 2: She also says this in an affidavit that after she
Speaker 2: and Kelly left Byron's house that day, they went to
Speaker 2: a park and Kelly confessed to Angie that she witnessed
Speaker 2: Byron kill Anastasia.
Speaker 3: And this was before she ever came forward to the authorities.
Speaker 3: What do you make of that?
Speaker 5: I don't remember, like I don't remember Kelly leaving in
Speaker 5: like such like there were I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 5: she wasn't like distraught and like losing it it doesn't
Speaker 5: make sense. She didn't confront Byron with that. She didn't
Speaker 5: say anything like that to Byron when we were at
Speaker 5: the house, Like she didn't like that wasn't what the
Speaker 5: conversation was about.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she says that she remembers they were drinking
Speaker 2: at Byron's.
Speaker 3: I know you said that you didn't remember that, but I.
Speaker 1: Don't remember that at all. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then she said that they went to the park
Speaker 2: and Kelly got very upset and very emotional and then confessed.
Speaker 3: That she witnessed Byron Killy Anastasia.
Speaker 2: She also said something to the effect that she thinks
Speaker 2: Byron had something to do with Justin's desk.
Speaker 5: None of that makes any sense to me.
Speaker 1: But that was not the tone that night.
Speaker 5: The tone was much more like it was like I
Speaker 5: need you to be like my emotional crutch, not like
Speaker 5: I'm holding this giant secret.
Speaker 1: It just wasn't the tone.
Speaker 3: Did Kelly act scared of Byron when she not at all?
Speaker 5: Never like the No, And it also it doesn't make
Speaker 5: any sense because she would be like, why why would
Speaker 5: you be going.
Speaker 1: To the person if you're scared of them?
Speaker 5: If in your like vulnerable spots like she she would
Speaker 5: reach out to Byron when she was like have nothing left,
Speaker 5: Like I need a shower, I need a place to
Speaker 5: like feel safe and like sleep off. Why would she
Speaker 5: be going to somebody she's afraid of in that In
Speaker 5: those moments, if anything, it was like Byron was the
Speaker 5: only one who like just had enough compassion forward and
Speaker 5: not to just keep putting up with her bs.
Speaker 1: Not that she was. She never acted up. She was
Speaker 1: like the bully to Byron.
Speaker 5: No, there's it doesn't it doesn't make sense or line up.
Speaker 3: Jamie says.
Speaker 2: She and Byron moved to Saint Louis on September thirteenth,
Speaker 2: two thousand. Six days later, Kelly comes forward to say
Speaker 2: Byron killed Anastasia. So is it possible that Kelly tells
Speaker 2: Angie she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia out of retaliation because
Speaker 2: she was mad he was moving away? Or did Kelly
Speaker 2: freak out that Byron was leaving town and leaving her
Speaker 2: to shoulder this horrible secret alone and that's why she
Speaker 2: broke down and finally told her friend the truth. I
Speaker 2: want to ask Kelly these questions, and I'm hoping she'll
Speaker 2: sit down and talk with me soon. I asked Jamie,
Speaker 2: who testified at Byron's trial, what she makes of the
Speaker 2: June fifth We shouldn't we should talk about this recorded
Speaker 2: phone call?
Speaker 3: What do you make of Byron not just denying it
Speaker 3: and saying, what are you crazy? I didn't do this?
Speaker 3: What are you saying? Oh my god to me?
Speaker 5: That's like insane though, Like it's like wordplay. It's like
Speaker 5: a crazy person like basically stalks you for like how long,
Speaker 5: I mean, and then we're gonna like analyze your response
Speaker 5: to how he answered her after like her being a
Speaker 5: crazy person for like that long, Like I know, like
Speaker 5: why should you have to say that? How many times
Speaker 5: had she like gone after him? Like when you're asked
Speaker 5: something for the millionth time by somebody who's crazy, like
Speaker 5: you'd probably be like, I'm done, Like we don't even.
Speaker 7: Talk about this anymore.
Speaker 5: The fact that you didn't say like, oh I didn't
Speaker 5: do that when somebody's like it it. But it also
Speaker 5: that recording also still on some level scares me as
Speaker 5: somebody who lives in this state. The fact that like
Speaker 5: somebody could call you up eight million times and then
Speaker 5: like on the eight millionth time, you don't say, no,
Speaker 5: I didn't kill somebody, and that means you're admitting it
Speaker 5: like that is insane.
Speaker 2: But when I interviewed Byron, he said Kelly had never
Speaker 2: asked him that question before. Byron said, because he had
Speaker 2: heard Kelly say so many outrageous things in the past,
Speaker 2: didn't even matter anymore. Have you ever asked Byron white blank,
Speaker 2: did you kill Anastasia?
Speaker 6: No?
Speaker 5: I never felt the need to. I mean no, I
Speaker 5: never crossed my mind that I would even need to
Speaker 5: do that.
Speaker 2: You know, Kelly, you know she definitely thinks that he
Speaker 2: can fool people. What do you make of that or
Speaker 2: what do you think about the way she characterizes Byron.
Speaker 5: Byron is intelligent, incredibly intelligent. I've never felt manipulated by
Speaker 5: Byron or that his Karen concern was not true. I
Speaker 5: don't know if like you know this, but I have
Speaker 5: five kids. My oldest is sixteen. You know, I asked
Speaker 5: him to be the godparent to my firstborn child. My
Speaker 5: kids have visited him. He sends them hand drawn cards.
Speaker 5: He's different, he's his own person, but he's not are.
Speaker 5: There's nothing in him that's there's nothing evil in him.
Speaker 2: I appreciate both Angie and Jamie sharing their experiences and
Speaker 2: perspectives with me. There is someone else I've been wanting
Speaker 2: to talk with who was actually a part of this
Speaker 2: friend group around the time this tragedy took place.
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, how are you?
Speaker 2: After many attempts to talk and numerous technical difficulties, I
Speaker 2: finally get the chance to speak with Byron's friend, Abraham Nicsley.
Speaker 2: It was Abraham who on October twenty second, paged Byron
Speaker 2: asking him to come over and pick up some stuff
Speaker 2: to take to his ex girlfriend, Tara McDowell. So Justin, Byron,
Speaker 2: and Kelly stop buy before taking Kelly home for her
Speaker 2: nine o'clock curfew. How but how did they look when
Speaker 2: they came to your house? Did they how did they look?
Speaker 8: It just seemed, you know, relatively unremarkable.
Speaker 9: It wasn't you know, it didn't become important until afterwards.
Speaker 8: As I said, they were you know, they were there
Speaker 8: for five to ten minutes.
Speaker 2: Did they say anything about having seen Anastasia They had.
Speaker 8: Mentioned it on the phone at the time, just seeming
Speaker 8: as you know, follow up of the breakup problem between
Speaker 8: Justin and Anastasia.
Speaker 9: Although we were going to hang out Anastasia.
Speaker 6: But they got in a big argument.
Speaker 9: She got out of the car, you know, which is
Speaker 9: exactly what I testified to, you know, I.
Speaker 8: Testified to My understanding was it was told to me.
Speaker 9: It was consistent with the first several.
Speaker 8: Years of statements from Kelly. It wasn't until after that
Speaker 8: she went.
Speaker 6: Back to changing your story that Byron did it.
Speaker 2: Did they seem worried about Anastasia that night? Do they
Speaker 2: seem concerned that she had gotten out of the car?
Speaker 9: I don't think.
Speaker 10: I mean, I don't think so, you know, I mean,
Speaker 10: I think it was more she was I mean, I
Speaker 10: think the expectation was that like she called her parents
Speaker 10: or whatever.
Speaker 11: You know. My thought was, well, it's not the best
Speaker 11: of you know, neighborhoods, and in some ways was worse
Speaker 11: than But at the same time, there was multiple gas stations.
Speaker 8: There, you know, payphones still existed, it was daylight, so
Speaker 8: it wasn't an immediate concern in my mind, you.
Speaker 9: Know, and it wasn't necessarily expressed.
Speaker 6: Of all, you know, I hope she's it was.
Speaker 8: We were all young enough, none of this stuff had
Speaker 8: ever happened before.
Speaker 9: He didn't know to be worried.
Speaker 8: The red flags of the situation, you know, are a
Speaker 8: lot clearer in retrospect than they were at the time.
Speaker 2: Just to be clear, you didn't see anyone who looked
Speaker 2: like they'd been crying, or any blood on their clothes
Speaker 2: or anything that seems.
Speaker 9: Certainly nothing like that. I mean, especially with Byron and Kelly,
Speaker 9: like thinking about it.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's as violent as I understand the shooting to be.
Speaker 8: It would be difficult for me to fathom how they
Speaker 8: could have gone from that.
Speaker 9: To seeing me.
Speaker 2: You know, we then talk about the investigation.
Speaker 8: It was essentially coming at this as some sort of
Speaker 8: you know, satanic.
Speaker 9: Ritual abuse scare from the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 6: He kind of meets.
Speaker 8: Pre Columbine misunderstanding of God culture.
Speaker 2: You know, this is Abraham says. Investigators questioned him before
Speaker 2: the tape recorder was ever turned on. Then after he
Speaker 2: gave his recorded statement, he was arrested on an outstanding
Speaker 2: traffic warrant.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 8: Kind of after that, there was kind of this feeling
Speaker 8: of the real hostility from the police investigation where I
Speaker 8: didn't really feel like they were going down a productive
Speaker 8: path further investigation.
Speaker 2: And you know, I then asked Abraham about his ex
Speaker 2: girlfriend Tara McDowell. Sadly, she has since passed away. Going
Speaker 2: back to Tara for a second, When she is interviewed,
Speaker 2: she tells a different story than you do, which is
Speaker 2: that Byron and Justin came to her house before they
Speaker 2: were going to your house. What did you make of
Speaker 2: or what do you make of that?
Speaker 9: I mean, I think, to be honest, I make of
Speaker 9: that that.
Speaker 6: It was like six months later thence she was.
Speaker 9: Being interviewed, not you know, like four or.
Speaker 6: Five days the I mean, it's hard.
Speaker 9: I hadn't really.
Speaker 8: Ever noticed that discrepancy in our statement, to be honest,
Speaker 8: So to my knowledge, it's the first.
Speaker 9: Time hearing from it or hearing of it.
Speaker 8: Also obviously testified at the trial itself, and I wasn't
Speaker 8: present for a testimony, but it was my understanding that
Speaker 8: she would have been testifying those same things, you know,
Speaker 8: I did.
Speaker 2: Tara was the first person I always found this interesting.
Speaker 2: When she's interviewed, she says, they ask where could you know,
Speaker 2: like did Byron own a gun? And I think she
Speaker 2: said no. Then she said his dad may have owned
Speaker 2: a gun. And it was the first person who said
Speaker 2: anything about Byron's father ever possibly having a gun. Did
Speaker 2: you know anything about Byron's dad having a gun or
Speaker 2: displaying a gun or no.
Speaker 6: I mean I never met Byron's father.
Speaker 8: Byron's father died somewhere, I think within two months after
Speaker 8: you know Anna stated it. Yeah, I never knew of
Speaker 8: his you know, dad having a gun.
Speaker 2: Briefly described for me Byron and Kelly's relation after the
Speaker 2: murder and justin suicide. I mean, it seems they continue
Speaker 2: to date each other for about a year.
Speaker 8: Well, no, they continue to date each other, not just
Speaker 8: for a year, but for more than two.
Speaker 6: She was sixteen when they broke up.
Speaker 2: When you hung out with Byron and Kelly in the
Speaker 2: time after the murder, did she seem afraid of them?
Speaker 3: Like, No, I'm.
Speaker 6: She.
Speaker 8: I mean I got the impression that she was more
Speaker 8: the kind of one that both pursued him initially and
Speaker 8: then like kind of like I mean, when he wanted
Speaker 8: to break up with her.
Speaker 6: It was you know, yeah, it was her that was
Speaker 6: always coming back.
Speaker 9: So no, I never really saw her.
Speaker 6: As kind of the shrinking violet in the situation.
Speaker 2: Did you ever ask Byron if you did it?
Speaker 12: Oh?
Speaker 8: No, I mean I never question the thought that he
Speaker 8: might have done it enough to think.
Speaker 6: It was a question was asking.
Speaker 8: Yeah, Barn's really about the least violent violent person I everything,
Speaker 8: you know in terms of like, I never saw.
Speaker 9: Him get even really a violent.
Speaker 6: Yelling match, let alone you know, in a fight with someone.
Speaker 9: So the idea that he'd be involved with let alone
Speaker 9: like the primary.
Speaker 8: Actor in such a plot just didn't seem believable to me.
Speaker 2: You can't imagine Byron putting a gun in Anastasia's face,
Speaker 2: up against her nose and pulling the trigger.
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, that's that's not I can't imagine Byron having
Speaker 8: your shooting a gun, you know, especially like especially in
Speaker 8: someone's face. If somebody in that circle data I say,
Speaker 8: I just my assumption was always that somehow just look
Speaker 8: back out and met up with Anastasia was somehow involved.
Speaker 2: Where would Justin have gotten the gun if he had
Speaker 2: a I had gone the next day?
Speaker 9: Again, I have know that that's.
Speaker 8: Something that none of those pieces ever really made sense.
Speaker 8: But yeah, if you bought the original shotgun in September.
Speaker 6: It's always been you know, word of mouth that he
Speaker 6: got rid of it.
Speaker 9: But at the same time too, like, it's hard for.
Speaker 8: Me to imagine shotgun would being something that they really
Speaker 8: could have a put back together for.
Speaker 9: The open casket surgery and be.
Speaker 8: Not found any pieces of obviously you know it wouldn't
Speaker 8: have been pellets, but you know, a shotgun shell shotgun
Speaker 8: slug is huge, especially for something like at twelve gage,
Speaker 8: I just don't see that. I don't know why I
Speaker 8: say that that part always and then the fact that
Speaker 8: you know shees, you know, like cremated the next day
Speaker 8: or something like can't you even go back and do
Speaker 8: an autopsy? Is something in open casket and then they creamated.
Speaker 8: But also heard you know, sketch stories that like Robert Ripples,
Speaker 8: she did bought life insurance for the week before or something.
Speaker 9: It always seemed like too.
Speaker 6: Much to assume that he was involved, But you know.
Speaker 8: Obviously he's proven to be a farsheedier character than any
Speaker 8: of us.
Speaker 6: New at the time.
Speaker 8: So now it seems more like something that should have
Speaker 8: maybe been pursued at that time to at least more
Speaker 8: formerly little adel.
Speaker 2: Did Anastasia ever talk about her dad or I mean
Speaker 2: outside of the investigation that he did, did you know
Speaker 2: anything about Bob? Did Anastage ever talk about him?
Speaker 8: All over the impression that she didn't have a terribly
Speaker 8: happy home life, given you know, her poetry in moving
Speaker 8: out of her parents' house that like, you know, at
Speaker 8: least the moment of graduation.
Speaker 9: If not six months before that.
Speaker 6: You know, I never got any details on it either,
Speaker 6: know now.
Speaker 8: Unfortunately you know Tara very well might have you know, Tara,
Speaker 8: Tara been you know, abused as a child and was
Speaker 8: very open kind of about that experience.
Speaker 9: And so if all the stage had ever experienced anything
Speaker 9: like that, Tarah would have been the person she might
Speaker 9: have opened up to.
Speaker 2: But I think Tara, in her interview said having been
Speaker 2: abused as a young person, she could recognize in anastasia
Speaker 2: that she probably has suffered from some sort of abuse,
Speaker 2: whether it be emotional or physical.
Speaker 3: That's what I think she said something to that effect.
Speaker 1: In her interview.
Speaker 6: I'm not shocked by that.
Speaker 2: I then ask Abraham if he has any questions about
Speaker 2: the case. He says, yes, most involved Kelly.
Speaker 8: It's always been a mystery to me is to once
Speaker 8: she given a false statement.
Speaker 9: I guess she would probably be subject to legal.
Speaker 6: Repercussions if she were to change it.
Speaker 8: But I just it didn't seem consistent in my understanding
Speaker 8: with She gave so many things in her statement that
Speaker 8: were inconsistent with otherwise.
Speaker 9: That most facts were like Anna Staga is.
Speaker 8: Like going you know, to Amaco, et cetera. And yet
Speaker 8: she's having her never having.
Speaker 9: Gotten she has her. You know, she never.
Speaker 8: Accounts for any of the sightings along Triman Road that
Speaker 8: seem to you know, take place in her statement. She's
Speaker 8: reading her statement from the witness stand and having known
Speaker 8: that how much the police talked to me before they
Speaker 8: ever started, you.
Speaker 6: Know, recording anything.
Speaker 9: You know, it made me really wonder how.
Speaker 8: Much she might have been coached to get as good
Speaker 8: as she got in her statement in the first place.
Speaker 2: You know, did Byron ask you to lie for him
Speaker 2: to be an alibi?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 6: No, would you?
Speaker 3: Would you lie for him?
Speaker 9: No?
Speaker 8: This, I mean, it's weird at this point, being you know,
Speaker 8: like the only.
Speaker 9: One left alive that you know, seem to know all
Speaker 9: of them.
Speaker 8: But at the time, you know, it was a lot
Speaker 8: more you know, supporting information.
Speaker 6: I think to the extent.
Speaker 9: That we you know, ever talked about it, like, I think.
Speaker 6: All of us kind of assumed it was justin because I.
Speaker 9: Mean, I remember, I don't remember like all the exact details,
Speaker 9: but I remember, like Kelly and Byron all.
Speaker 8: Having kind of the same questions you know as far
Speaker 8: as after Justin had killed himself and it's like, well,
Speaker 8: you know.
Speaker 6: How did this go down?
Speaker 8: Like did he go out and I see her later
Speaker 8: that night. I think that was all of our thoughts,
Speaker 8: you know, kind of after he killed himself, like was
Speaker 8: trying to put that, trying to understand, you know, kind
Speaker 8: of what happened and when and why.
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't think anyone was ever.
Speaker 8: Satisfied with the investigation of the results of it.
Speaker 2: Throughout twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team continues to rack
Speaker 2: up affidavits, including those from two jurors. At Byron's trial,
Speaker 2: one jur named Sarah McLeod Arena was played both versions
Speaker 2: of the June fifth recorded call between Byron and Kelly.
Speaker 2: In her affidavit, miss Arena says the poor quality one
Speaker 2: was the one she heard at trial, and that she
Speaker 2: relied on the transcript to determine what was being said
Speaker 2: on the recording. She goes on to write, quote, I
Speaker 2: am questioning our verdict. I would have liked to hear
Speaker 2: this information at trial, including the information that Kelly perjured
Speaker 2: herself by lying about her criminal record, that there is
Speaker 2: evidence the victim Anastasia went home, and that the victim's
Speaker 2: father took out multiple insurance policies on her prior to
Speaker 2: her death. She also says, quote, I did not find
Speaker 2: Kelly Moffitt credible at trial. There was a lot of
Speaker 2: pressure during jury deliberations by other jurors to come to
Speaker 2: a quick verdict. I needed better facts to back up
Speaker 2: my doubt about Byron's guilt, but we didn't get.
Speaker 3: Those facts at trial.
Speaker 2: I actually met up with an alternate juror at a
Speaker 2: library in Kansas named Rick Panic, who had a very
Speaker 2: different take. He doesn't remember a lot of the details
Speaker 2: that came out at trial, which by the way, was
Speaker 2: more than twenty years ago, but he does remember that
Speaker 2: back in two thousand and two, he very much believed
Speaker 2: Byron was guilty, mostly because he believed Kelly's testimony and
Speaker 2: he thought the June fifth recorded phone call was damning.
Speaker 2: When I shared with mister Panick some of what Byron's
Speaker 2: team says proves Byron is innocent, like the clearer version
Speaker 2: of the June fifth recorded phone call, and some of
Speaker 2: the affat David's, mister Panic says it doesn't change his opinion.
Speaker 2: He still believes Byron is guilty. But prior to getting
Speaker 2: any of these affidavits, in the late summer of twenty
Speaker 2: twenty two, Byron's legal team reaches out to the Jackson
Speaker 2: County Prosecutor's Office Conviction Integrity Unit, hoping they can work
Speaker 2: together on this case. Here's one of Byron's attorneys, Sean O'Brien.
Speaker 13: So we had a meeting with them by zoom and
Speaker 13: we're kind of laying out Byron's innocent Here's why at
Speaker 13: that point we had paused our investigation because our thought
Speaker 13: was some of this investigation when it came to people
Speaker 13: like the pathologist Thomas Young, the Regional Crime Lab, the
Speaker 13: Sheriff's office property room, we thought that it would be
Speaker 13: beneficial to have them with us to participate in that investigation.
Speaker 13: We thought we'd get more honest responses. We thought that
Speaker 13: there wouldn't be any questioning of the integrity the evidence.
Speaker 13: We were doing it together with the Prosecutor's office, and
Speaker 13: the very first thing they said to us is we
Speaker 13: don't see the evidence the way you do. And we
Speaker 13: responded with, what are you choking on? You know what
Speaker 13: the what is the issue you have here? And at
Speaker 13: the end of the day they said, sorry, we're not
Speaker 13: going to help you, you know, knock yourself out. You
Speaker 13: can work on this case, but we don't see it
Speaker 13: as an innocence case. So when we're talking about conviction integrity,
Speaker 13: what the hell does integrity mean?
Speaker 2: On October thirty first, twenty twenty two, Byron's team sends
Speaker 2: the Conviction Integrity Unit a sixty six page document with
Speaker 2: all of their bullet points, citations and excerpts from the trial,
Speaker 2: and other documents supporting their claims. Again, the unit declines
Speaker 2: to take the case. I would like to know why,
Speaker 2: so I requested interview with Jeane Peters Baker, the elected
Speaker 2: Jackson County prosecutor who started the Conviction Integrity Unit in
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. First of all, Miss Baker, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for taking the time to do this today. I really,
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.
Speaker 7: You're welcome and I was waiting for you in my lobby.
Speaker 2: Miss Baker has held the elected office since twenty eleven.
Speaker 2: Before that, she was an assistant prosecutor for more than
Speaker 2: fifteen years. But why did you start the Conviction Integrity Unit?
Speaker 14: I started it because there was a need to do it,
Speaker 14: and now I want to remind you though at that
Speaker 14: time there was no legal mechanism that I, as the
Speaker 14: local DA had to rectify a case.
Speaker 2: But a big change comes in July of twenty twenty one.
Speaker 2: That's when Missouri Governor Mike Parson signs Senate Bill fifty
Speaker 2: three into law, which, among other things, creates, quote a
Speaker 2: judicial procedure that provides a pathway for a prosecuting attorney
Speaker 2: to correct a miscarriage of justice resulting from a wrongful conviction.
Speaker 2: And what is the criteria for taking on someone's case.
Speaker 14: What we want to see is someone that has some
Speaker 14: kind of new evidence, something that would put that conviction
Speaker 14: in a light no longer favorable, you know, to the
Speaker 14: conviction itself. And so I can't say exactly what that is.
Speaker 14: There's not necessarily a laundry list. You need facts and witnesses.
Speaker 14: You cannot go on theory and strong feelings. You need
Speaker 14: because it's like any other case that you're sort of
Speaker 14: untrying it.
Speaker 7: This has to go before a try or fact.
Speaker 14: This has to go before a judge, and a judge
Speaker 14: has to be presented evidence whatever that is.
Speaker 2: If it's okay, I'd like to ask you a few
Speaker 2: questions about buyern case.
Speaker 7: Okay.
Speaker 2: So his legal team they came to your office hoping
Speaker 2: that they could collaborate an investigation or see if you
Speaker 2: could work together to try to investigate the case. And
Speaker 2: what happened with that?
Speaker 14: So Byron is Byron case is much like other cases
Speaker 14: that I've had where people have brought me some level
Speaker 14: of information and it's short, it's you know, it's it's
Speaker 14: not something that a judge would hear this and find
Speaker 14: the person actually innocent.
Speaker 7: So it requires some additional work.
Speaker 14: In Byron case's case, we did do that extra work,
Speaker 14: and there's just I just want to tell you there's
Speaker 14: another piece to this that is too often overlooked. Like
Speaker 14: in Byron's case, Kelly is a witness who has not
Speaker 14: moved with all the pressure that she's received, she has
Speaker 14: not moved.
Speaker 7: Her testimony would be the same.
Speaker 14: You know that that perhaps is just how it goes
Speaker 14: with criminal cases that you're never quite done. But this
Speaker 14: has had quite an impact on her life. You know,
Speaker 14: my office contacting her, you know, somewhat recently to say
Speaker 14: we're back, we want to talk to you again. It's
Speaker 14: not that part is not as sexy for people to
Speaker 14: do podcasts about or do shows about.
Speaker 7: And you know, it's just the other side of it.
Speaker 14: And I've had more of those than I've had, you know,
Speaker 14: opportunities to free someone bluntly under the statute that I
Speaker 14: have up here. Under this statute, Byron, case cannot be
Speaker 14: freed from prison because a judge would need to hear
Speaker 14: evidence and when I called that, and that evidence is
Speaker 14: viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict. So
Speaker 14: then I have to you know, a judge would have
Speaker 14: to say, prosecutor call your first witness. I call Kelly.
Speaker 14: Kelly says the same thing she said before, except now
Speaker 14: whatever potential for it's so many years have passed, sort
Speaker 14: of her reason for that. You might attack her for
Speaker 14: for lying, you know, in the in the first case.
Speaker 14: It's kind of not quite there this time. And although
Speaker 14: I'm sure you could find some reasons, they don't. They're
Speaker 14: not there from from my review and from the other
Speaker 14: lawyers who reviewed that case. And the tacit admission made
Speaker 14: by mister Case would be viewed most likely again as
Speaker 14: a tacit admission. So I reviewed the evidence. I went
Speaker 14: back and reviewed witnesses. This is not just an exercise
Speaker 14: for me. This is I want to get it right.
Speaker 14: And that doesn't mean, you know that I want to
Speaker 14: free everybody. It means I want to free those who
Speaker 14: should be freed, and it means I want to keep
Speaker 14: those in prison who committed the crime. And the only
Speaker 14: way I know to do that is on actual evidence,
Speaker 14: not on theory, not on romantic.
Speaker 7: Views of evidence.
Speaker 14: You know, on mister case, it is issues of goth
Speaker 14: and a cemetery drug use. You know, there's a lot
Speaker 14: in there, you know, for it to be something that
Speaker 14: could be interesting for someone, But at the end of
Speaker 14: the day, the evidence still holds.
Speaker 2: Just a couple of follow up questions, you said you
Speaker 2: reached out or you wanted to talk to Kelly again.
Speaker 2: For what reason did you want to talk to Kelly again?
Speaker 7: Well, that's what we do.
Speaker 14: That's what a conviction integrity integrity unit does.
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt you. So when Byron's team came
Speaker 2: to you, that's when you reached out to her.
Speaker 14: Of course, with you know, after some time after going
Speaker 14: through the file looking at it, and yes, we felt
Speaker 14: like that's our obligation to do that.
Speaker 7: And I want you to know we do.
Speaker 14: That based off of the credibility that the defense brings
Speaker 14: when the defense attorney brings us this issue.
Speaker 7: I take that seriously.
Speaker 14: And the reason I take it seriously is because I
Speaker 14: want to get it right too, Because maybe that you know,
Speaker 14: the wrong person is in prison and the right person.
Speaker 7: Is still out there.
Speaker 14: It's two wrongs, so we have I have every reason
Speaker 14: to want to correct this on behalf of victims, and
Speaker 14: of course on behalf of the people that were wrongfully accused.
Speaker 2: From what I understand, since Byron's legal team came to
Speaker 2: you I think twenty twenty two, they've since gotten affidavits
Speaker 2: from Horton Lance, you know, Byron's defense attorney, from doctor Young,
Speaker 2: the medical examiner, and other people, and Charles and Judge Atwell,
Speaker 2: when you heard or read any of what was in
Speaker 2: those affidavits, what did you think?
Speaker 6: Well?
Speaker 7: I thought it was a case that required another look.
Speaker 14: I thought it was a case that required we take
Speaker 14: another look at it and make sure that we got
Speaker 14: it right. Let's you know, even though we are a
Speaker 14: busy office, we can't be so busy that we don't
Speaker 14: we don't keep looking.
Speaker 2: And you still believe, or you still firmly believe that
Speaker 2: there's there's nothing there for the units to follow up
Speaker 2: on or.
Speaker 14: Yes, I think in this case, I firmly believe that
Speaker 14: if I brought what the defense asked me to bring
Speaker 14: before a judge, and I, the prosecutor, now have to
Speaker 14: present evidence of his innocence, I couldn't get it done
Speaker 14: under this statute because it's not theory. It has to
Speaker 14: be evidence that is proffered to a judge in a
Speaker 14: courtroom that does indicate actual innocence or you know that
Speaker 14: there was a like I said, a constitutional error that
Speaker 14: has not all been taken up.
Speaker 2: Byron's team says there is a constitutional error that hasn't
Speaker 2: been raised before in the form of Brady violations, evidence
Speaker 2: of Kelly's criminal record and Bob Whipple's Fuchen's emails that
Speaker 2: were never turned over to Byron's defense attorney Horton Lance.
Speaker 3: Because I mean.
Speaker 2: Byron's team says that there were Brady violations, that there were,
Speaker 2: you know, some emails between Anastage's dad and you know,
Speaker 2: not to hand it over to Horton Lance. Even with
Speaker 2: that stuff, would it really only take I don't mean
Speaker 2: only it would be huge, but would it take Kelly's recantation?
Speaker 14: I can't say there, I mean, there's always it is
Speaker 14: what it is. Okay, I don't mean to sound cute
Speaker 14: about that, but it is. You know, I'm going to
Speaker 14: evaluate what there is to see. So maybe there could
Speaker 14: be another person we didn't know about that now provides
Speaker 14: information or that would put Kelly's testimony in a different light,
Speaker 14: and that doesn't exist.
Speaker 2: I then ask miss Baker about the first prosecutor on
Speaker 2: this case who had been accused of some prosecutorial misconduct
Speaker 2: on other cases. Amy McGowan was on the case at
Speaker 2: the very beginning. Would that ever be a reason to
Speaker 2: look at it again because of a little a track
Speaker 2: record or some misdeeds that had been done by her
Speaker 2: on other cases.
Speaker 7: Of course, yes, and we did look at that.
Speaker 14: That's we didn't We didn't see that there was really
Speaker 14: any involvement by Amy McGowan that put this in a
Speaker 14: different light either well, and ultimately, you know this, like
Speaker 14: I said, this is not an exercise. It is the
Speaker 14: prosecuting attorney's credibility that is on the line. And when
Speaker 14: I offer a case like this, I'm not going to
Speaker 14: just go take a shot in the dark.
Speaker 7: I need to believe it.
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I think ultimately everyone wants the right
Speaker 2: person to pay for the crime.
Speaker 14: Amen, we should all agree on that. We should always
Speaker 14: all agree on that.
Speaker 2: Since we recorded this interview, Miss Baker, who did not
Speaker 2: seek reelection in November of twenty twenty four, left the
Speaker 2: Jackson County Prosecutor's Office and today is a private citizen.
Speaker 2: So after Byron's team strikes out with the Conviction Integrity
Speaker 2: Unit in December of twenty twenty three, they file a
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty nine page emotion with the Court
Speaker 2: of Appeals. Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.
Speaker 15: So currently, the motion that we filed is it's something
Speaker 15: called a motion to recall the mandate. When a Court
Speaker 15: of Appeals issues a decision, it's called its mandate. There
Speaker 15: are very very limited circumstances where a Court of Appeals
Speaker 15: can take that mandate back. One of them is fraud
Speaker 15: on the court, or constitutional violations within the mandate, or
Speaker 15: that are perpetuated by the mandate, or some retroactive decision
Speaker 15: of the US Supreme Court that would impact the outcome.
Speaker 15: And we've got all three of those in this case.
Speaker 15: We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of
Speaker 15: fact or fraud, and then we have all this undisclosed
Speaker 15: evidence such as the emails showing that Anastasia went home
Speaker 15: and changed clothes, Kelly Moffitt's conviction and how that conviction
Speaker 15: was had while she was cooperating with Jackson County.
Speaker 3: Here's sawn again.
Speaker 13: This was a thin case in the beginning, and the
Speaker 13: Court of Appeal struggled to affirm the conviction. And now
Speaker 13: they know that what they used to confront to affirm
Speaker 13: the conviction were lies, false evidence, and so this is
Speaker 13: obviously a false evidence case if the phone call with
Speaker 13: Byron had not been falsified. Kelly Moffett is an unbelievable witness,
Speaker 13: But it comes down to this. The Court of Appeal says, well,
Speaker 13: you can attack Kelly all you want, and yes, there
Speaker 13: are a lot of things that say she's unreliable, but
Speaker 13: we have the tape. You can attack the tape all
Speaker 13: you want, but we have an eyewitness who is supported
Speaker 13: by the physical evidence. None of that's true, None of
Speaker 13: it's true. It's all been disproven and so the two
Speaker 13: legs of this case have both been sawed off. Nothing
Speaker 13: to hold it up.
Speaker 2: When I interviewed Byron's lawyers, they were expecting a decision
Speaker 2: on the motion any day. They were hopeful it would
Speaker 2: be granted and it would lead to a new trial.
Speaker 2: A month later, on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four,
Speaker 2: the motion was denied. Devastated, but not deterred, their fight
Speaker 2: continues next time on The Real Killer.
Speaker 12: He found out a little before he got home that
Speaker 12: Anastasia had not come home, so I knew that Bob
Speaker 12: had gone to find her.
Speaker 2: A new witness comes forward with a bombshell of a story.
Speaker 12: I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to
Speaker 12: get in the car. Bob said he tried to get
Speaker 12: her into the car.
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely
Speaker 2: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. To see photos, maps,
Speaker 2: and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real
Speaker 2: Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.
Speaker 2: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,
Speaker 2: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and
Speaker 2: Elisa Rosen.
Speaker 3: For AYR Media.
Speaker 2: Written by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggi,
Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam
Speaker 2: studio engineer Graham Gibson, Legal counsel for A y R Media,
Speaker 2: Johnny Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard,