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Speaker 1: A warning.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains depictions of violence and conversations about suicide

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Speaker 2: that may be disturbing and triggering for some listeners. If

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Speaker 2: you are struggling with suicidal thoughts, please fast forward to

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Speaker 2: the end of this episode to find out where help

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Speaker 2: is available.

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Speaker 1: It felt very real what she was telling.

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Speaker 2: Me, A stunning confession before Kelly Moffatt ever comes forward

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Speaker 2: to authorities.

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Speaker 1: I'm still a loss for words for it, because it's,

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Speaker 1: first of all, it's something I don't talk about. It's

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Speaker 1: something I'm not comfortable with. I hate that I even

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Speaker 1: have had to talk about it more than I've ever

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Speaker 1: needed to in my whole life.

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Speaker 3: I'm Leah Rothman.

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Speaker 2: This is The Real Killer, Episode eleven and Justice for

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Speaker 2: who Deserves It. Before we get into this week's episode,

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Speaker 2: A quick note about something in our last episode. I

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Speaker 2: mentioned that back in nineteen ninety seven, no testing had

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Speaker 2: been performed on Anastasia's hands for trace metals. Turns out

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Speaker 2: there was material collected from underneath her fingernails that wasn't

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Speaker 2: tested either. In twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team had

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Speaker 2: that material tested for DNA by the Kansas City Police

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Speaker 2: crime Lab. The Examiner wrote in their report that two

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Speaker 2: of the samples had no foreign genetic material detected, meaning

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Speaker 2: what was found belonged to anastasia, and the last sample

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Speaker 2: was too small to detect anything usable.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 2: Also in the last episode, we shared some of the

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Speaker 2: affidavits Byron's legal team has obtained from the medical examiner,

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Speaker 2: the judge, and the defense attorney. We also shared some

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Speaker 2: of Angie Giannino's affidavit. Angie and Kelly met in late

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine early two thousand, when Kelly was seventeen

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Speaker 2: and Angie was a couple of years older. Angie is

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Speaker 2: the friend who on May fifteenth, two thousand, was pulled

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Speaker 2: over for speeding. Remember, Kelly was in the passenger seat

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Speaker 2: through a bottle of alcohol out the car window and

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Speaker 2: was eventually arrested for littering, given shock, jail time, and probation.

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Speaker 2: Angie was also at Kelly's house when the June fifth

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Speaker 2: recorded phone call took place. Today, Angie is a mother

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Speaker 2: and works as an IT solution analyst in the Kansas

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Speaker 2: City area. Angie agrees to speak with me and share

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Speaker 2: what she remembers about Kelly, their friendship and so much

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Speaker 2: more so, how.

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Speaker 3: Did you meet Kelly.

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Speaker 1: I had met her at a party. It was a

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Speaker 1: rave essentially, and we just like connected immediately, Like she

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Speaker 1: was just a ray of sunshine and I felt her

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Speaker 1: vibe and she felt mine and it was magical.

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Speaker 3: How does a friendship flourish?

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Speaker 1: What I liked about her and the reason why the

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Speaker 1: friendship even continued was that she was just so genuine

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Speaker 1: and she was just so sweet, and she really cared

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Speaker 1: about you. So when she talked to you, you mattered,

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Speaker 1: and she really listened to you, and she was very intelligent.

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Speaker 1: We had a passion to also go enjoy ourselves, so

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Speaker 1: we kind of followed where these parties went and you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of went into that scene for a bit. But

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Speaker 1: we had a blast. We would dance, we would laugh.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it was just so much fun.

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Speaker 3: Uh it was Kelly in school at that point.

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Speaker 1: Or no or no, she was not in school. We

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Speaker 1: never talked about school. That's weird. Like we talked about everything,

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Speaker 1: like about life, philosophy, Like we were really into Avante

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Speaker 1: Guard film music, like none of like the real mainstream stuff.

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Speaker 1: Like she was so mature, like her whole person, her

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Speaker 1: whole aura. She's just a very old soul.

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Speaker 3: When did you first learn of Byron case.

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Speaker 1: It was in her bedroom at her parents' house. Like

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it was Bao house we were

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Speaker 1: listening to or could have been the Cure. I mean

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Speaker 1: we just just a song made her think of him,

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Speaker 1: and like so she spoke of him in a very

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Speaker 1: light manner, initially.

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Speaker 2: A reminder at this point Kelly and Byron are no

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Speaker 2: longer together before and what did she say about the relationship,

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Speaker 2: But she.

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Speaker 1: Was just telling me like this, like he was this

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Speaker 1: older man and he was just so beautiful, and he

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Speaker 1: thought she was so beautiful, and they were just enamored

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Speaker 1: with each other, and it was like this magical love

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Speaker 1: story and they were just like obsessed with one another.

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Speaker 1: I was like, wow, she goes yeah. I'm like, how

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Speaker 1: did you meet him? She's like in Westport? And I

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Speaker 1: was like, well, how old were you? And she was like,

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Speaker 1: I was like thirteen, And I was like, what what

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Speaker 1: do you do with Westport at thirteen? By yourself? I

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Speaker 1: was just amazed by the fact that she was down there.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I don't remember where she met him in Westport,

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Speaker 1: but she met him and they just immediately like had

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Speaker 1: this like loving like you know, I don't know, mystical

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Speaker 1: love if you will. That was the assumption I was

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Speaker 1: under when I heard about him. She's like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we would listen to all this music and dance and

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Speaker 1: she would do all these like dramatic things with her hands,

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Speaker 1: you know, very gothy, goth ass kind of vibes with it.

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Speaker 4: So was Kelly goth Yeah, she was, But I was two,

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Speaker 4: so it wasn't like I'm like, okay, like I love

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Speaker 4: the same music and a lot of the same movies.

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Speaker 1: So she had a dark esthetic. I wouldn't say, I

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Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it, but she was just

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Speaker 1: she had a very light dark about her.

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Speaker 2: Over time and She's says she notices some changes in

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Speaker 2: Kelly's behavior.

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Speaker 1: So I saw some of the cracks in the pavement

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Speaker 1: as time went on in our friendship. Her and I,

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Speaker 1: like I said, we went to raves. So when we

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Speaker 1: went to raves, we tried some of the things there,

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Speaker 1: so that would be like ecstasy, you know, but like

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Speaker 1: some of those things and like you know, smoke weed

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Speaker 1: and those were the things, at least to my knowledge,

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Speaker 1: we were doing. But I didn't know that behind the

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Speaker 1: scenes there were things going on with Kelly and what

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Speaker 1: she was doing. So I didn't know that it almost

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Speaker 1: became an everyday thing that she was drinking vodka every day,

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Speaker 1: functioning alcoholic. I didn't know this. I was drinking, but

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Speaker 1: I wasn't drinking to that extreme extent like I was like, oh, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's to drink, you know. And then she was dating

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Speaker 1: this guy named Jim, and I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: just up and down like relationship, but then I saw

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Speaker 1: more things happen, like her drug use.

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Speaker 2: So one day, you and Kelly are hanging out and

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Speaker 2: she says what she's.

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Speaker 1: Like, yeah, let's go visit.

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Speaker 2: Him, and she's talking about Byron.

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Speaker 1: I think he's still I don't know if she was

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Speaker 1: communicating with him or how that all even transpired.

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Speaker 4: How.

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Speaker 1: I was like, final, take you because I had a car,

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Speaker 1: so I'll come with you. So we pulled up to

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Speaker 1: his apartment typical Westport apartment, you know, midtown apartment, and

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Speaker 1: we went in and like immediately it was so cold,

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Speaker 1: like and not like temperature like I'm freezing, I need

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Speaker 1: a coat, but like it just dissolute. It felt very cold,

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Speaker 1: like very very cold. And we enter into the into

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Speaker 1: his place, and I immediately feel insanely uncomfortable, like I

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Speaker 1: don't feel like I belong there. I don't know what's

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Speaker 1: going on, but I don't feel very comfortable at all.

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Speaker 1: So I proceed to have some drinks because it would

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Speaker 1: probably keep me at a decent composure so I could

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Speaker 1: handle the situation. I didn't even know what to expect. Nothing.

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Speaker 1: I just felt a very icy, cold energy within that place.

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Speaker 1: So they immediately never lose eye contact and just talk.

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Speaker 1: They're talking, They're talking, talking, talking, you know, I'm just

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Speaker 1: sitting on the couch and letting that happen. I think

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Speaker 1: a roommate comes in. I don't know if the roommate went

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Speaker 1: to the room or left. I don't know. Again, I

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Speaker 1: just was hoping we could get out of there fast,

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Speaker 1: because what I envisioned of this man was nothing that

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Speaker 1: I felt or saw with my own two eyes that

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Speaker 1: Kelly had glamorized early on.

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Speaker 2: And Kelly and Byron are talking NonStop. How do they

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Speaker 2: seem with each other? Do they seem comfortable?

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Speaker 1: Are they intense like body language of mimic each other,

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Speaker 1: like like almost as if they were I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like there was definitely there was definitely still a connection

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Speaker 1: between the two. I couldn't decipher, you know, feelings were involved,

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Speaker 1: but it was like they were connected and they were talking,

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Speaker 1: so they were into what they were talking. My back

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Speaker 1: was towards them. I'm on their food, on his futon

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Speaker 1: couch whatever it was, and they were behind me talking

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Speaker 1: and I think she sat down over here once and

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Speaker 1: talked to him, and then she got back up and talked.

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Speaker 1: They were talking out loud, there was no whispering. I

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Speaker 1: just don't remember what they talked about because I was

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Speaker 1: so like, I want to get out of here, Like

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Speaker 1: I just blocked because I didn't think it was important

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Speaker 1: for me to listen to what they were talking about.

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Speaker 2: I think Byron was about to move to Saint Louis.

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Speaker 2: Do you remember if there were moving boxes or if

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Speaker 2: Kelly said anything about what are the boxes here for?

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Speaker 2: And he's like, I'm moving to Saint Louis? Do you

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Speaker 2: remember any of that?

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Speaker 1: Honestly, the only memories I have are walking into that

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Speaker 1: place and it feeling the vibe that I got of

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Speaker 1: it feeling very icy cold.

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Speaker 2: Did as you were there for a little bit, did

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Speaker 2: it get a little bit more comfortable, did you feel

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Speaker 2: a little bit more at ease or did you feel

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Speaker 2: that way?

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Speaker 3: Did you feel uncomfortable the entire time you were there?

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Speaker 1: I think after my second shot I felt better. To

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Speaker 1: be honest, I don't think that the vibe ever changed.

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Speaker 1: So how long are you at Byron's? Roughly could have

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Speaker 1: been an hour?

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Speaker 3: And what happens when you leave?

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Speaker 1: Remember we left and she told me, let's just go

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Speaker 1: to a park. I need to talk to you, and

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Speaker 1: I said, okay. This was directly after leaving his house.

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Speaker 1: We pull over in a park there in Kansas City,

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Speaker 1: not far from his place, and it what she tells

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Speaker 1: me in that car made my heart drop. So she

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Speaker 1: tells me of what had happened to the two people

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Speaker 1: that were murdered and what she witnessed, and I just

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Speaker 1: couldn't believe it, Like why, first of all, take me

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Speaker 1: to a place of someone who would have done that

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Speaker 1: to somebody like what I had. I'm still a loss

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Speaker 1: of words for having to experience something just secondhand like that,

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Speaker 1: just to hear someone tell me that, like, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: a movie, it wasn't a book, it was someone who

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Speaker 1: actually saw something so terrible happened. She tells me the

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Speaker 1: whole story, and.

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Speaker 3: Tell me, can you tell me what she told you?

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Speaker 3: What did she What did Kelly tell you?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god, Like it's awful. Like

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Speaker 1: she said that she her and Byron would hang out

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Speaker 1: with Anastasia and the scirling Monastasia and Justin they were

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Speaker 1: a couple, like they hung out with them and a

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Speaker 1: couple other people. But I know do have their names

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Speaker 1: because of what that story And it's not a story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this happened to somebody, to people's lives are

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Speaker 1: gone now, you know, like telling me about what had happened.

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Speaker 1: So she told me, I mean, sorry, I'm getting all

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Speaker 1: jumbled here because I mean, this is intense. So she

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Speaker 1: told me that she witnessed Byron murder Anastasia and how

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Speaker 1: he did that was by She was in the front

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Speaker 1: seat and he told Anastasia to get out of the

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Speaker 1: car in front of the car, and then he went

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Speaker 1: to the back of the car and pulled out a

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Speaker 1: shotgun or a gun, I'm not sure what kind of weapon,

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Speaker 1: but it was a gun and killed and Kelly was

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Speaker 1: in the front seat witnessing this. Again, she could have

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Speaker 1: been in the front seat, she could have been out

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Speaker 1: of the car, but she witnessed it.

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Speaker 2: And so you your friend Kelly tells you that she

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Speaker 2: witnessed her boyfriend murder, her friend murder, and what do

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Speaker 2: you what is going through you?

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Speaker 1: Fear and sadness discussed and like every emotion you could

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Speaker 1: possibly go through.

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Speaker 2: But there's more and it involves Justin.

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Speaker 1: That was kind of a gray area because she said

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Speaker 1: that he was found like a week later in a warehouse,

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Speaker 1: and like in DeSoto, Kansas. I believe she didn't witness

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Speaker 1: what happened with Justin, so she couldn't be one hundred

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Speaker 1: percent certain about that, but she definitely, she definitely felt

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Speaker 1: that he had some Byron had something to do with

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Speaker 1: Justin's murder.

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Speaker 2: A reminder, Justin's death was ruled a suicide. I think

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Speaker 2: you said when we spoke last, like you were almost

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Speaker 2: kind of mad at her that she brought you to

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Speaker 2: Byron's house.

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Speaker 1: After you learn I was, I was shocked and I

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Speaker 1: was pissed, and afterwards I just was like, what the

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Speaker 1: hell are you doing? Why would you put me in

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Speaker 1: any harms way like that? Like what if he went

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Speaker 1: crazy and did something to us at his place. I

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Speaker 1: don't know him, I didn't know anything like this about him,

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Speaker 1: Like I was, I mean, there were just so many

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Speaker 1: thoughts going through my head. And then just to know

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Speaker 1: that that had happened and she had told me. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I was just sick, like so such a barrage of

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Speaker 1: emotions pouring out of me, like I I was, And

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Speaker 1: absolutely I was like why would you even bring someone?

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Speaker 1: But I felt that she in just retrospect, she probably

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Speaker 1: felt safe with me there because we were the closest

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Speaker 1: to one another.

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Speaker 2: She must not have been afraid of Byron the way

258
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Speaker 2: you described like their interaction at his apartment.

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Speaker 1: She wasn't. She didn't seem like she was afraid. But

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Speaker 1: I don't know if she was putting on a brave face.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, Like get me to the nearest place

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Speaker 1: where I could sit I needed. I just felt very uncomfortable,

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Speaker 1: Like it just felt like a very dark force, if

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Speaker 1: you will, Like I just felt a very dark energy

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Speaker 1: in the home. I mean, that's the best way to

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Speaker 1: describe it.

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Speaker 3: You said you needed to drink. Was Kelly drinking at

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Speaker 3: that at the apartment too? With Laren?

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Speaker 1: Oh? I'm sure she was always drinking. Unfortunately, did you

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Speaker 1: guys drink?

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Speaker 2: Did you drink when you went to the park and

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Speaker 2: she went to go tell you, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, I think we did. I think no, I think

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Speaker 1: we did have a bottle in the car, And I

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Speaker 1: got to remember all this stuff, But I think I

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Speaker 1: remember going to the park. I remember her telling me

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Speaker 1: what happened, and I'm sure we had was in the car.

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Speaker 1: Sure there was like vodka in the car. If not,

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Speaker 1: we went and got some probably after. It's awful.

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Speaker 2: What what had or had you discussed Anastasia's death and

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Speaker 2: Justin's deaths, their deaths before.

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Speaker 3: Or when did you first learn?

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Speaker 5: No?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she'd never mentioned in the car.

285
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Speaker 2: She'd never in your year and a half or year

286
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Speaker 2: plus of friendship at that point, she'd never mentioned that

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Speaker 2: one of her friends was murdered and her boyfriend was

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Speaker 2: also found dead.

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Speaker 1: No, never once.

290
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Speaker 3: How when Kelly's telling you this is she how is she?

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Speaker 6: Like?

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Speaker 3: What is her demeanor?

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Speaker 1: She's like, I'm in my like I'm in my seat,

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm the driver's seat. And then she's like

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Speaker 1: facing me like this and telling me what's happening. So

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Speaker 1: she's she's kind of catty corner to me, and she's

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Speaker 1: telling me like crying, like just it all was a floodgate,

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Speaker 1: and I felt the floodgates, like she just it all floodgated,

299
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Speaker 1: all this information, all these things she's held in. I

300
00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: could feel the release of something that needed to be said,

301
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,920
Speaker 1: and she told me. You know, I think the main

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00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:15,359
Speaker 1: thing was me wanting to comfort her because that's a

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00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:19,280
Speaker 1: big admission, and she's bawling and freaking out, and I

304
00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,120
Speaker 1: was like, my friend is a lot of pain, and

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00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:25,800
Speaker 1: she just admitted something so terrible, and to have witnessed

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Speaker 1: something so terrible it was, it was just an awful

307
00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:30,160
Speaker 1: I felt for her.

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00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:33,600
Speaker 2: I did did Kelly say anything else about what happened

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Speaker 2: the night that Anastasia was murdered?

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Speaker 1: She did, She did tell me the details, but I

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Speaker 1: honestly don't remember them.

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Speaker 3: That's fine.

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Speaker 2: You said that there was no part of you that

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Speaker 2: questioned what Kelly was telling you.

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Speaker 3: You believed her.

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Speaker 1: One, yes, yeah, I mean I had no reason to

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Speaker 1: not believe her. She didn't lie to me. She was

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Speaker 1: a great friend to me.

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Speaker 3: And you said she'd never lied to you.

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Speaker 1: That I mean nothing that I ever caught nothing that

321
00:18:06,760 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 1: I was like, oh you know you lied to me?

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, she was pretty honest. I mean she was

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Speaker 1: up straightforward, you know, very I mean she was.

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Speaker 2: Honest, Angie says. After that day, Kelly's drug use gets worse.

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Speaker 1: So that started the decline of things because I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I can't follow that. I can't be a part of that.

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Speaker 1: That's not me. So once that started, that's when our

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Speaker 1: friendship kind of started. We were like this and then

329
00:18:38,320 --> 00:18:40,199
Speaker 1: you know, we were so close, and then we just

330
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Speaker 1: dissipated slowly, Okay.

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Speaker 2: And then so she goes into rehab. Do you know,

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Speaker 2: is it like multiple times or is it just one

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Speaker 2: time before getting to going to Byron's house.

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Speaker 3: That one day.

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Speaker 1: She may have gone to rehab before that, but I

336
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Speaker 1: don't remember. Excuse me, I don't remember when her first

337
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,600
Speaker 1: stint was other than when I was friends with her,

338
00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,760
Speaker 1: Like the like crack use became out of hand when

339
00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,879
Speaker 1: after we went to his house. But really the catalyst

340
00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:18,000
Speaker 1: was going to Byrons. That's where Kelly started spiraling.

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00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 3: Meaning the drugs.

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00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 1: The drugs. Yeah, so she just went off that. She

343
00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 1: went off that end there about that deep end, and

344
00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 1: that was what her coping mechanism was. I think seeing

345
00:19:30,080 --> 00:19:33,320
Speaker 1: him triggered her. Telling me what happened triggered her, and

346
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 1: that she was already triggered because she was already drinking

347
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Speaker 1: daily behind closed doors. Again, things I didn't realize till later.

348
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Speaker 1: So after that, it was her going down that dark

349
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Speaker 1: demise into drugs, you know, and then it all kind

350
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Speaker 1: of went to where she then went into rehab and

351
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Speaker 1: then her admission had happened there.

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Speaker 2: So timeline wise, it seems around June or July of

353
00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:02,600
Speaker 2: two thousand and Kelly and Angie go to Byron's house

354
00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:08,600
Speaker 2: and Kelly confesses to witnessing Byron kill Anastasia. Then two

355
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,879
Speaker 2: three months later, in September of two thousand, Kelly confesses

356
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Speaker 2: to her drug counselor and the authorities are called.

357
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:17,400
Speaker 3: Did she.

358
00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:23,360
Speaker 2: Share with you when she came forward and spoke with police?

359
00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:27,560
Speaker 1: And yeah, she told me she told the counselor and

360
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 1: that that ball is going to start rolling basically like that.

361
00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:32,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

362
00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 2: I was going to ask you, like, did you ever

363
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: consider going to the authorities?

364
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:37,480
Speaker 7: Yeah?

365
00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,280
Speaker 1: If I had time to really mull it over and

366
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Speaker 1: not then get swept into another thing that I had

367
00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:47,880
Speaker 1: to now be concerned for my friend safety and life,

368
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,640
Speaker 1: I probably would have done that. You know, I probably

369
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,720
Speaker 1: would have taken those steps. But it was again, the

370
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 1: two years were so extreme, so many extreme things happened.

371
00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 1: So this was like the latter part of the extremity.

372
00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: It was her addiction or turned into addiction or I

373
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,760
Speaker 1: don't know when it all started, but it completely spiraled

374
00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,640
Speaker 1: out of control after she told me what had happened.

375
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 2: So you were interviewed by Byron's previous attorney, Cindy Short

376
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:21,879
Speaker 2: I think in twenty sixteen with.

377
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 1: My very first phone call, yeah, and.

378
00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:28,879
Speaker 2: Then again by his current legal team last year twenty

379
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:29,440
Speaker 2: twenty three.

380
00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: So when you spoke with Cindy Women, yes, yeah, when

381
00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:36,000
Speaker 1: you spoke.

382
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 3: With Great, what do you make of that?

383
00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 1: First of all, I'm like, why do you guys keep

384
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: asking me, like what did I have to do with anything?

385
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,919
Speaker 1: That's how I feel. I feel very put out. That

386
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: was the initial feeling because I don't even know these people.

387
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,240
Speaker 1: I was told this in a car and after that,

388
00:21:54,280 --> 00:21:57,840
Speaker 1: the whole friendship group, you know, it just went south.

389
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,560
Speaker 1: She went south at all Wins, So I could they

390
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,600
Speaker 1: couldn't have been kinder people, especially like put in a

391
00:22:05,720 --> 00:22:08,560
Speaker 1: cold And my take on it is, I get that

392
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 1: they need to do this to you. You're not on

393
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: anyone's side. You're trying to just hear the facts and

394
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:17,920
Speaker 1: you're trying to, you know, hear the accounts and stories

395
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:20,159
Speaker 1: from everyone, and I find that great. That's why I'm

396
00:22:20,240 --> 00:22:23,400
Speaker 1: very comfortable in talking to you about this again. I

397
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: can't I'm not pointing any fingers in anyone because I

398
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:32,040
Speaker 1: don't I wasn't there, I don't know. I can only

399
00:22:32,080 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: go off of what I was told by a close

400
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 1: friend of mine at the time and what I felt,

401
00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 1: And that's all I can go off of.

402
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: Have you ever wondered if perhaps Byron Case is innocent?

403
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've wondered.

404
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 3: I have.

405
00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard because I you know, people can convince

406
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,399
Speaker 1: me that Kelly's lying. People can convince me all sorts

407
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:01,439
Speaker 1: of things. I can only go off how I feel

408
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:04,920
Speaker 1: and what I have felt in the present moments when

409
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: they were happening. And for me, I didn't doubt her,

410
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,920
Speaker 1: you know, because it just felt so real and how

411
00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:18,920
Speaker 1: she spiraled like that, that for me was like validity.

412
00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,119
Speaker 1: That she is losing her mind because of this admission.

413
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 1: It's not because of guilt. It's because maybe it was

414
00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:29,840
Speaker 1: guilt of holding on to it so long. You know

415
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: that she never came forward with the true, her true

416
00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: version of it, you know, and she's been holding on

417
00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:38,920
Speaker 1: to that, so that's eating her alives. So she's got

418
00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: to do something to fill that void. And that's what

419
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: I felt when she went down the spiral. People I've

420
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,040
Speaker 1: heard painted all sorts of pictures about her that she's

421
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,359
Speaker 1: been doing it for ears and she was already, you know,

422
00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: a drug addict and all of that. Well, I mean,

423
00:23:57,640 --> 00:23:59,720
Speaker 1: I don't know that to be true. I can only

424
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: call the two years that we were friends. She was great,

425
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,480
Speaker 1: the glimpses I got to have with her and one

426
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,560
Speaker 1: of a very dear friend of mine at that time.

427
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:15,159
Speaker 1: But I want justice for who deserves it, and I

428
00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:19,919
Speaker 1: just I can't, like I said, no, for sure what

429
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: has happened other than what I again have been told.

430
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: Angie says she and Kelly are no longer in touch.

431
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,119
Speaker 1: It sucks that all of this happened. It sucked to

432
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,400
Speaker 1: witness a bright, shiny light just kind of like flash

433
00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 1: out like at that time. Like it sucks to all

434
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:45,919
Speaker 1: of it, and it's like it hurts because it's I

435
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 1: can only imagine. Obviously there's people who can't speak for themselves,

436
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,719
Speaker 1: they're not alive anymore. There's I mean, it's it's insane,

437
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 1: to me that any of this that my brain has

438
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: to compartmentalize. I mean, people go through worse trauma in

439
00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:07,880
Speaker 1: terms of they're not alive, or they're incarcerated, or they're

440
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: the witness, or it's just it's a lot, so my

441
00:25:12,119 --> 00:25:17,640
Speaker 1: brain doesn't always handle certain aspects so well, not to mention,

442
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: I did drink a lot then you know I was

443
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 1: going to rave, so I mean my brain wasn't. I

444
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:30,320
Speaker 1: couldn't tell you everything because of the things I partook

445
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:33,640
Speaker 1: in at that time as well. So if it were

446
00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,199
Speaker 1: happening and it was all clear, like you know, I

447
00:25:36,200 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: would be like, oh yeah, I could tell you all

448
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 1: the things that were said, but it's just hard to

449
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 1: remember it all, and also I'm trying to forget it.

450
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: Angie Giannino just shared a very interesting story about what

451
00:26:02,760 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 2: happened when she and Kelly Moffatt went to Byron's apartment

452
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 2: one day and what Kelly told her after they left,

453
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,440
Speaker 2: and and she remembered Byron's roommate being there that day.

454
00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: The woman who was there actually was not Byron's roommate

455
00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,439
Speaker 2: but his friend, Jamie Jamie Reid, who today runs a

456
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:29,120
Speaker 2: nonprofit related to LGB and trans identity agrees to talk

457
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:32,000
Speaker 2: with me about her friendship with Byron, which began when

458
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: they met at a coffeehouse in late nineteen ninety nine

459
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:38,600
Speaker 2: early two thousand and what she remembers about Kelly and

460
00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: the day she and her friend came over.

461
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, what were some of your impressions early impressions of.

462
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 5: Byron quirky, creative, incredibly smart, really caring. I think we

463
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,320
Speaker 5: were both writing a lot of poetry at the time,

464
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 5: so passing poems back and forth and editing and thinking

465
00:26:56,800 --> 00:27:02,080
Speaker 5: about creative processes and just like hanging out. I just

466
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 5: thought Byron was a really good friend and was just

467
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:06,120
Speaker 5: a really good person.

468
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 2: What did Byron tell you about what happened to Anastasia

469
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: and Justin.

470
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 5: I think that what first happened is somebody alluded to

471
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,400
Speaker 5: some kind of like, oh, it's interesting that y'all are friends,

472
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 5: and I was like, what are you talking about? I

473
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 5: think I mentioned something to Byron about it, and he

474
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:31,560
Speaker 5: was like, oh, and told me kind of the background

475
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 5: story and was really what I took from what I

476
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 5: understood was that there was a lot of grief that

477
00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 5: Byron still had.

478
00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:43,400
Speaker 1: I could tell that he.

479
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 5: Cared about Justin and Anastasia and Kelly, and that there

480
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,719
Speaker 5: was still sadness over it. What I just kind of

481
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 5: interpreted at the time was that this was a couple

482
00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:02,040
Speaker 5: who had been really volatile, Justin and Anastasia. And my

483
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 5: interpretation was Justin had killed his girlfriend and then killed himself,

484
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 5: and that's kind of what I thought had happened. I

485
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 5: don't remember Byron ever like saying it like that, but

486
00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 5: it just all kind of made sense that that was

487
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 5: what it occurred, and to me, it just seemed like

488
00:28:19,000 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 5: a young tragedy.

489
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,639
Speaker 3: What did Byron tell you about Kelly Moffatt.

490
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 5: Byron still really cared for Kelly. I could tell that

491
00:28:27,160 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 5: pretty quickly. Byron had a lot of distress over Kelly's

492
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 5: drug addiction, Kelly's life circumstances, and where Kelly was at

493
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 5: the time.

494
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,400
Speaker 1: And it seemed to me.

495
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 5: That Byron was trying to create some I don't think

496
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 5: we use the words back then, but create some boundaries

497
00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,120
Speaker 5: and was trying to still be a kind, caring person,

498
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:53,880
Speaker 5: but maybe create some distance. I was around when Kelly

499
00:28:54,360 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 5: would call, and so I would hear, like a one

500
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 5: sided com I would like hear Byron side of a

501
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 5: phone call. Byron just kind of saying like no, I

502
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 5: can't give you money. I'm sorry that you're I'm sorry

503
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,080
Speaker 5: this is going on for you, Like I really wish

504
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:12,600
Speaker 5: you the best. I really can't talk right now, you know,

505
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 5: I gotta go wanting like basic needs, Like it just

506
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 5: seemed like a kid who like couldn't take care of himself,

507
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 5: like I haven't eaten, you know, like you need to

508
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 5: take a shower, I need money, like like an addict

509
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 5: kind of would How often would Kelly call regularly enough

510
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,000
Speaker 5: for me to think, why are you still taking these calls?

511
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 5: This is absurd, Like you don't need to you don't

512
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 5: need to talk to her anymore, Like this is too much.

513
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 5: I also like in retrospect now being like forty something,

514
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 5: these were not like phone calls at like two in

515
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 5: the afternoon, like a reasonable time. This would have been

516
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 5: like we were up super late now like she would

517
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 5: be calling, which would have been essentially like the middle

518
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:57,719
Speaker 5: of the night times too. That just don't really make

519
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 5: a ton of sense. I just wished that he could

520
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 5: have like cut her off, I feel like even sooner.

521
00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:05,240
Speaker 5: But I think he was like in the process of

522
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 5: trying to figure out how to do that.

523
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 2: Although Jamie says she is there for several of Kelly's calls,

524
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,840
Speaker 2: she only meets her once in person. It's the day

525
00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 2: Angie described earlier.

526
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 5: So we were at Byron's apartment and she had come

527
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 5: to the back door, which is like the door that

528
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 5: you know we would park at, like back in the parking.

529
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 5: But she came to the back door, which is right

530
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,959
Speaker 5: off the kitchen, and at first it sounded like Byron

531
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 5: was kind of trying to keep her at the door

532
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 5: and was like, no, you know, like I really can't

533
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 5: help you, Like I really can't talk to you right now,

534
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 5: kind of a thing. She came in. She was with

535
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 5: a friend, right he was with a friend, and it

536
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 5: was it was it was weird. She like was demanding

537
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 5: and just seemed to like be that person you kind

538
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,960
Speaker 5: of want to, like, Okay, let's let's wrap this up.

539
00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 5: Let's I can't really do what you're wanting from me.

540
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 5: We were playing a board game. I remember that, and

541
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 5: I and I remember that. He told her that he

542
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 5: was going to move and that we were going to

543
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 5: move to Saint Louis. That's when she got angry and

544
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 5: she threatened and said, you can't do that. You can't leave,

545
00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:20,120
Speaker 5: you know, you have to you have to take care

546
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 5: of me kind of a thing. And then she said,

547
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:24,320
Speaker 5: if you move, I'm going to make your life a

548
00:31:24,360 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 5: living hell. And Firon was like, we really got to

549
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 5: be done with this conversation, like I've friends over, like

550
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 5: it's time to wrap this up.

551
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 3: But she how did she take the news that he

552
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 3: was moving to Saint Louis.

553
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 5: She was pissed, I mean she was, Yeah, she was angry,

554
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 5: and she acted like this lifeline was being taken away,

555
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 5: like how you can't do this to me, like this

556
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 5: is yeah, you have to be here for me.

557
00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 3: How long? How long were Kelly and her friend there?

558
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 5: I don't know. I can't really recall a timeline. I

559
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 5: can recall like how she came in kind of tone,

560
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,240
Speaker 5: and I remember kind of the anger that she got

561
00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 5: once he told her that we were going to move.

562
00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:12,600
Speaker 2: Were they were they drinking? Do you remember Kelly Byron

563
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 2: her friend they were drinking?

564
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: Or no?

565
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:17,760
Speaker 5: No, I don't remember Byron drinking.

566
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: Do you remember if Kelly was No, I don't.

567
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 5: Think Kelly was drinking. She seemed disregulated, like up and down.

568
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 5: And I want to say I want to use the

569
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 5: word like squirrelly, like couldn't sit still and like up

570
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 5: and down and dah dah da da da and like

571
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 5: like wanting to like run the whole show too.

572
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 3: And how was her friend acting? Do you remember? No,

573
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I mean, did she act like she

574
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 3: wanted to be there or just aloof or.

575
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 5: I really don't remember the friend.

576
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: How were you with Kelly? Did you have any like

577
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 2: interactions with Kelly.

578
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: Or very very much like not really at all. No,

579
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:59,760
Speaker 3: that day you didn't really talk to each other. No,

580
00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:02,240
Speaker 3: I had nothing to say to her, and so Kelly

581
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 3: mostly spoke with Byron.

582
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I was kind of like that other her friend,

583
00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 5: Like I was that friend.

584
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, quiet in the.

585
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,239
Speaker 2: Room, Jamie says. After Byron tries for a while to

586
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 2: get Kelly and her friend to leave, they finally do.

587
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,960
Speaker 2: After Kelly and her friend left, do you remember what

588
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 2: the conversation was with Byron?

589
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 5: Uh? Similar to the other conversations we had had at

590
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 5: that point, which was you don't have to deal with this.

591
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: I feel like he.

592
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 5: Was just too nice sometimes, that he was allowing that

593
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 5: this horrible thing had happened, and that he had been

594
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 5: trying to deal with it and process it and find

595
00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 5: ways to move on with his life and just heal,

596
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 5: and that this person wanted to just keep sucking him

597
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 5: back in, and just he just needed to get out

598
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,240
Speaker 5: of there, like it wasn't gonna she wasn't going to stop,

599
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 5: like she wasn't going to stop harassing him and and

600
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 5: making demands of him, and that he just needed to go.

601
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 2: I asked Jamie what she thinks about what Angie told

602
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: me that after they left Byron, Angie and Kelly went

603
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 2: to a park and Kelly confessed she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia,

604
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,240
Speaker 2: and that Kelly did this before she ever came forward

605
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 2: to police.

606
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: So the friend who came over her name's Angie. I

607
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:25,719
Speaker 3: interviewed her.

608
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: She also says this in an affidavit that after she

609
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,040
Speaker 2: and Kelly left Byron's house that day, they went to

610
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 2: a park and Kelly confessed to Angie that she witnessed

611
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,880
Speaker 2: Byron kill Anastasia.

612
00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 3: And this was before she ever came forward to the authorities.

613
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 3: What do you make of that?

614
00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 5: I don't remember, like I don't remember Kelly leaving in

615
00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 5: like such like there were I don't know. I mean,

616
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 5: she wasn't like distraught and like losing it it doesn't

617
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,399
Speaker 5: make sense. She didn't confront Byron with that. She didn't

618
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 5: say anything like that to Byron when we were at

619
00:35:07,920 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 5: the house, Like she didn't like that wasn't what the

620
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:12,040
Speaker 5: conversation was about.

621
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, And she says that she remembers they were drinking

622
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 2: at Byron's.

623
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: I know you said that you didn't remember that, but I.

624
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: Don't remember that at all. Yeah.

625
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: And then she said that they went to the park

626
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: and Kelly got very upset and very emotional and then confessed.

627
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: That she witnessed Byron Killy Anastasia.

628
00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 2: She also said something to the effect that she thinks

629
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 2: Byron had something to do with Justin's desk.

630
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 5: None of that makes any sense to me.

631
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: But that was not the tone that night.

632
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 5: The tone was much more like it was like I

633
00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 5: need you to be like my emotional crutch, not like

634
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,360
Speaker 5: I'm holding this giant secret.

635
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:55,280
Speaker 1: It just wasn't the tone.

636
00:35:55,880 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: Did Kelly act scared of Byron when she not at all?

637
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 5: Never like the No, And it also it doesn't make

638
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:08,560
Speaker 5: any sense because she would be like, why why would

639
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:09,719
Speaker 5: you be going.

640
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 1: To the person if you're scared of them?

641
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 5: If in your like vulnerable spots like she she would

642
00:36:15,080 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 5: reach out to Byron when she was like have nothing left,

643
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,319
Speaker 5: Like I need a shower, I need a place to

644
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 5: like feel safe and like sleep off. Why would she

645
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 5: be going to somebody she's afraid of in that In

646
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 5: those moments, if anything, it was like Byron was the

647
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 5: only one who like just had enough compassion forward and

648
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 5: not to just keep putting up with her bs.

649
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: Not that she was. She never acted up. She was

650
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: like the bully to Byron.

651
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 5: No, there's it doesn't it doesn't make sense or line up.

652
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 3: Jamie says.

653
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 2: She and Byron moved to Saint Louis on September thirteenth,

654
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 2: two thousand. Six days later, Kelly comes forward to say

655
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 2: Byron killed Anastasia. So is it possible that Kelly tells

656
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: Angie she witnessed Byron kill Anastasia out of retaliation because

657
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: she was mad he was moving away? Or did Kelly

658
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,800
Speaker 2: freak out that Byron was leaving town and leaving her

659
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 2: to shoulder this horrible secret alone and that's why she

660
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: broke down and finally told her friend the truth. I

661
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:27,359
Speaker 2: want to ask Kelly these questions, and I'm hoping she'll

662
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 2: sit down and talk with me soon. I asked Jamie,

663
00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 2: who testified at Byron's trial, what she makes of the

664
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: June fifth We shouldn't we should talk about this recorded

665
00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 2: phone call?

666
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 3: What do you make of Byron not just denying it

667
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 3: and saying, what are you crazy? I didn't do this?

668
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440
Speaker 3: What are you saying? Oh my god to me?

669
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 5: That's like insane though, Like it's like wordplay. It's like

670
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 5: a crazy person like basically stalks you for like how long,

671
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 5: I mean, and then we're gonna like analyze your response

672
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 5: to how he answered her after like her being a

673
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,239
Speaker 5: crazy person for like that long, Like I know, like

674
00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:12,240
Speaker 5: why should you have to say that? How many times

675
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 5: had she like gone after him? Like when you're asked

676
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 5: something for the millionth time by somebody who's crazy, like

677
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,320
Speaker 5: you'd probably be like, I'm done, Like we don't even.

678
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 7: Talk about this anymore.

679
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,840
Speaker 5: The fact that you didn't say like, oh I didn't

680
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 5: do that when somebody's like it it. But it also

681
00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:34,600
Speaker 5: that recording also still on some level scares me as

682
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,319
Speaker 5: somebody who lives in this state. The fact that like

683
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 5: somebody could call you up eight million times and then

684
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 5: like on the eight millionth time, you don't say, no,

685
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 5: I didn't kill somebody, and that means you're admitting it

686
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 5: like that is insane.

687
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,399
Speaker 2: But when I interviewed Byron, he said Kelly had never

688
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 2: asked him that question before. Byron said, because he had

689
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,560
Speaker 2: heard Kelly say so many outrageous things in the past,

690
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 2: didn't even matter anymore. Have you ever asked Byron white blank,

691
00:39:03,160 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 2: did you kill Anastasia?

692
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 6: No?

693
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 5: I never felt the need to. I mean no, I

694
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 5: never crossed my mind that I would even need to

695
00:39:12,000 --> 00:39:12,319
Speaker 5: do that.

696
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 2: You know, Kelly, you know she definitely thinks that he

697
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 2: can fool people. What do you make of that or

698
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 2: what do you think about the way she characterizes Byron.

699
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:30,279
Speaker 5: Byron is intelligent, incredibly intelligent. I've never felt manipulated by

700
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 5: Byron or that his Karen concern was not true. I

701
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 5: don't know if like you know this, but I have

702
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 5: five kids. My oldest is sixteen. You know, I asked

703
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 5: him to be the godparent to my firstborn child. My

704
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 5: kids have visited him. He sends them hand drawn cards.

705
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:56,680
Speaker 5: He's different, he's his own person, but he's not are.

706
00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 5: There's nothing in him that's there's nothing evil in him.

707
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 2: I appreciate both Angie and Jamie sharing their experiences and

708
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:12,279
Speaker 2: perspectives with me. There is someone else I've been wanting

709
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: to talk with who was actually a part of this

710
00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 2: friend group around the time this tragedy took place.

711
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: Hello, Hello, how are you?

712
00:40:37,280 --> 00:40:42,360
Speaker 2: After many attempts to talk and numerous technical difficulties, I

713
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 2: finally get the chance to speak with Byron's friend, Abraham Nicsley.

714
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 2: It was Abraham who on October twenty second, paged Byron

715
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: asking him to come over and pick up some stuff

716
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 2: to take to his ex girlfriend, Tara McDowell. So Justin, Byron,

717
00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 2: and Kelly stop buy before taking Kelly home for her

718
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: nine o'clock curfew. How but how did they look when

719
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 2: they came to your house? Did they how did they look?

720
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 8: It just seemed, you know, relatively unremarkable.

721
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 9: It wasn't you know, it didn't become important until afterwards.

722
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 8: As I said, they were you know, they were there

723
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 8: for five to ten minutes.

724
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 2: Did they say anything about having seen Anastasia They had.

725
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 8: Mentioned it on the phone at the time, just seeming

726
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 8: as you know, follow up of the breakup problem between

727
00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 8: Justin and Anastasia.

728
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 9: Although we were going to hang out Anastasia.

729
00:41:37,680 --> 00:41:38,920
Speaker 6: But they got in a big argument.

730
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 9: She got out of the car, you know, which is

731
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 9: exactly what I testified to, you know, I.

732
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 8: Testified to My understanding was it was told to me.

733
00:41:48,120 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 9: It was consistent with the first several.

734
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:56,080
Speaker 8: Years of statements from Kelly. It wasn't until after that

735
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:56,800
Speaker 8: she went.

736
00:41:56,640 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 6: Back to changing your story that Byron did it.

737
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 2: Did they seem worried about Anastasia that night? Do they

738
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 2: seem concerned that she had gotten out of the car?

739
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 9: I don't think.

740
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 10: I mean, I don't think so, you know, I mean,

741
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 10: I think it was more she was I mean, I

742
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 10: think the expectation was that like she called her parents

743
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 10: or whatever.

744
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,840
Speaker 11: You know. My thought was, well, it's not the best

745
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 11: of you know, neighborhoods, and in some ways was worse

746
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 11: than But at the same time, there was multiple gas stations.

747
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 8: There, you know, payphones still existed, it was daylight, so

748
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 8: it wasn't an immediate concern in my mind, you.

749
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 9: Know, and it wasn't necessarily expressed.

750
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:43,960
Speaker 6: Of all, you know, I hope she's it was.

751
00:42:44,680 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 8: We were all young enough, none of this stuff had

752
00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:47,800
Speaker 8: ever happened before.

753
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 9: He didn't know to be worried.

754
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:55,719
Speaker 8: The red flags of the situation, you know, are a

755
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:58,280
Speaker 8: lot clearer in retrospect than they were at the time.

756
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 2: Just to be clear, you didn't see anyone who looked

757
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:05,279
Speaker 2: like they'd been crying, or any blood on their clothes

758
00:43:05,680 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 2: or anything that seems.

759
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 9: Certainly nothing like that. I mean, especially with Byron and Kelly,

760
00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 9: like thinking about it.

761
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:17,560
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's as violent as I understand the shooting to be.

762
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,879
Speaker 8: It would be difficult for me to fathom how they

763
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:24,680
Speaker 8: could have gone from that.

764
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 9: To seeing me.

765
00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 2: You know, we then talk about the investigation.

766
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 8: It was essentially coming at this as some sort of

767
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:35,719
Speaker 8: you know, satanic.

768
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,800
Speaker 9: Ritual abuse scare from the nineteen eighties.

769
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 6: He kind of meets.

770
00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 8: Pre Columbine misunderstanding of God culture.

771
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 2: You know, this is Abraham says. Investigators questioned him before

772
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 2: the tape recorder was ever turned on. Then after he

773
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 2: gave his recorded statement, he was arrested on an outstanding

774
00:43:55,000 --> 00:43:55,760
Speaker 2: traffic warrant.

775
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 1: You know.

776
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 8: Kind of after that, there was kind of this feeling

777
00:43:59,400 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 8: of the real hostility from the police investigation where I

778
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:09,319
Speaker 8: didn't really feel like they were going down a productive

779
00:44:09,719 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 8: path further investigation.

780
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,919
Speaker 2: And you know, I then asked Abraham about his ex

781
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 2: girlfriend Tara McDowell. Sadly, she has since passed away. Going

782
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 2: back to Tara for a second, When she is interviewed,

783
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:29,440
Speaker 2: she tells a different story than you do, which is

784
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: that Byron and Justin came to her house before they

785
00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: were going to your house. What did you make of

786
00:44:38,040 --> 00:44:39,000
Speaker 2: or what do you make of that?

787
00:44:39,560 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 9: I mean, I think, to be honest, I make of

788
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:42,080
Speaker 9: that that.

789
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,000
Speaker 6: It was like six months later thence she was.

790
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 9: Being interviewed, not you know, like four or.

791
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 6: Five days the I mean, it's hard.

792
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:51,440
Speaker 9: I hadn't really.

793
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 8: Ever noticed that discrepancy in our statement, to be honest,

794
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:57,840
Speaker 8: So to my knowledge, it's the first.

795
00:44:57,560 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 9: Time hearing from it or hearing of it.

796
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:06,560
Speaker 8: Also obviously testified at the trial itself, and I wasn't

797
00:45:06,600 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 8: present for a testimony, but it was my understanding that

798
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:13,440
Speaker 8: she would have been testifying those same things, you know,

799
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:13,959
Speaker 8: I did.

800
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: Tara was the first person I always found this interesting.

801
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 2: When she's interviewed, she says, they ask where could you know,

802
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: like did Byron own a gun? And I think she

803
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 2: said no. Then she said his dad may have owned

804
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:32,040
Speaker 2: a gun. And it was the first person who said

805
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:36,919
Speaker 2: anything about Byron's father ever possibly having a gun. Did

806
00:45:36,960 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 2: you know anything about Byron's dad having a gun or

807
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: displaying a gun or no.

808
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:45,799
Speaker 6: I mean I never met Byron's father.

809
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 8: Byron's father died somewhere, I think within two months after

810
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 8: you know Anna stated it. Yeah, I never knew of

811
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:55,960
Speaker 8: his you know, dad having a gun.

812
00:45:56,480 --> 00:46:02,000
Speaker 2: Briefly described for me Byron and Kelly's relation after the

813
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: murder and justin suicide. I mean, it seems they continue

814
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 2: to date each other for about a year.

815
00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,560
Speaker 8: Well, no, they continue to date each other, not just

816
00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 8: for a year, but for more than two.

817
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 6: She was sixteen when they broke up.

818
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:20,279
Speaker 2: When you hung out with Byron and Kelly in the

819
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:26,560
Speaker 2: time after the murder, did she seem afraid of them?

820
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 3: Like, No, I'm.

821
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 6: She.

822
00:46:31,760 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 8: I mean I got the impression that she was more

823
00:46:36,040 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 8: the kind of one that both pursued him initially and

824
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 8: then like kind of like I mean, when he wanted

825
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 8: to break up with her.

826
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 6: It was you know, yeah, it was her that was

827
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 6: always coming back.

828
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 9: So no, I never really saw her.

829
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 6: As kind of the shrinking violet in the situation.

830
00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:57,200
Speaker 2: Did you ever ask Byron if you did it?

831
00:46:57,560 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 12: Oh?

832
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,120
Speaker 8: No, I mean I never question the thought that he

833
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 8: might have done it enough to think.

834
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 6: It was a question was asking.

835
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:10,400
Speaker 8: Yeah, Barn's really about the least violent violent person I everything,

836
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:14,840
Speaker 8: you know in terms of like, I never saw.

837
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 9: Him get even really a violent.

838
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:21,040
Speaker 6: Yelling match, let alone you know, in a fight with someone.

839
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 9: So the idea that he'd be involved with let alone

840
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 9: like the primary.

841
00:47:26,800 --> 00:47:30,080
Speaker 8: Actor in such a plot just didn't seem believable to me.

842
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: You can't imagine Byron putting a gun in Anastasia's face,

843
00:47:33,719 --> 00:47:35,680
Speaker 2: up against her nose and pulling the trigger.

844
00:47:36,160 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 8: Yeah, no, that's that's not I can't imagine Byron having

845
00:47:40,239 --> 00:47:44,480
Speaker 8: your shooting a gun, you know, especially like especially in

846
00:47:44,520 --> 00:47:48,359
Speaker 8: someone's face. If somebody in that circle data I say,

847
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:52,239
Speaker 8: I just my assumption was always that somehow just look

848
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,800
Speaker 8: back out and met up with Anastasia was somehow involved.

849
00:47:57,560 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 2: Where would Justin have gotten the gun if he had

850
00:47:59,880 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 2: a I had gone the next day?

851
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 9: Again, I have know that that's.

852
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 8: Something that none of those pieces ever really made sense.

853
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 8: But yeah, if you bought the original shotgun in September.

854
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 6: It's always been you know, word of mouth that he

855
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:17,200
Speaker 6: got rid of it.

856
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:21,399
Speaker 9: But at the same time too, like, it's hard for.

857
00:48:21,360 --> 00:48:25,320
Speaker 8: Me to imagine shotgun would being something that they really

858
00:48:25,320 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 8: could have a put back together for.

859
00:48:27,840 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 9: The open casket surgery and be.

860
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 8: Not found any pieces of obviously you know it wouldn't

861
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:38,000
Speaker 8: have been pellets, but you know, a shotgun shell shotgun

862
00:48:38,080 --> 00:48:41,800
Speaker 8: slug is huge, especially for something like at twelve gage,

863
00:48:42,160 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 8: I just don't see that. I don't know why I

864
00:48:46,080 --> 00:48:49,680
Speaker 8: say that that part always and then the fact that

865
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:52,839
Speaker 8: you know shees, you know, like cremated the next day

866
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,080
Speaker 8: or something like can't you even go back and do

867
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 8: an autopsy? Is something in open casket and then they creamated.

868
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 8: But also heard you know, sketch stories that like Robert Ripples,

869
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 8: she did bought life insurance for the week before or something.

870
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,160
Speaker 9: It always seemed like too.

871
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 6: Much to assume that he was involved, But you know.

872
00:49:12,080 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 8: Obviously he's proven to be a farsheedier character than any

873
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 8: of us.

874
00:49:16,719 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 6: New at the time.

875
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 8: So now it seems more like something that should have

876
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 8: maybe been pursued at that time to at least more

877
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 8: formerly little adel.

878
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:31,120
Speaker 2: Did Anastasia ever talk about her dad or I mean

879
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 2: outside of the investigation that he did, did you know

880
00:49:34,239 --> 00:49:37,200
Speaker 2: anything about Bob? Did Anastage ever talk about him?

881
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 8: All over the impression that she didn't have a terribly

882
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:43,920
Speaker 8: happy home life, given you know, her poetry in moving

883
00:49:43,920 --> 00:49:46,239
Speaker 8: out of her parents' house that like, you know, at

884
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 8: least the moment of graduation.

885
00:49:47,920 --> 00:49:50,000
Speaker 9: If not six months before that.

886
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 6: You know, I never got any details on it either,

887
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:54,240
Speaker 6: know now.

888
00:49:54,600 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 8: Unfortunately you know Tara very well might have you know, Tara,

889
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 8: Tara been you know, abused as a child and was

890
00:50:01,080 --> 00:50:03,799
Speaker 8: very open kind of about that experience.

891
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 9: And so if all the stage had ever experienced anything

892
00:50:07,920 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 9: like that, Tarah would have been the person she might

893
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 9: have opened up to.

894
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 2: But I think Tara, in her interview said having been

895
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 2: abused as a young person, she could recognize in anastasia

896
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,800
Speaker 2: that she probably has suffered from some sort of abuse,

897
00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:24,759
Speaker 2: whether it be emotional or physical.

898
00:50:25,239 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 3: That's what I think she said something to that effect.

899
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:27,720
Speaker 1: In her interview.

900
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 6: I'm not shocked by that.

901
00:50:31,200 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 2: I then ask Abraham if he has any questions about

902
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 2: the case. He says, yes, most involved Kelly.

903
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,480
Speaker 8: It's always been a mystery to me is to once

904
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 8: she given a false statement.

905
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 9: I guess she would probably be subject to legal.

906
00:50:47,719 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 6: Repercussions if she were to change it.

907
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 8: But I just it didn't seem consistent in my understanding

908
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 8: with She gave so many things in her statement that

909
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 8: were inconsistent with otherwise.

910
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 9: That most facts were like Anna Staga is.

911
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:05,919
Speaker 8: Like going you know, to Amaco, et cetera. And yet

912
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,680
Speaker 8: she's having her never having.

913
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 9: Gotten she has her. You know, she never.

914
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,200
Speaker 8: Accounts for any of the sightings along Triman Road that

915
00:51:15,280 --> 00:51:18,240
Speaker 8: seem to you know, take place in her statement. She's

916
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,680
Speaker 8: reading her statement from the witness stand and having known

917
00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 8: that how much the police talked to me before they

918
00:51:24,680 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 8: ever started, you.

919
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 6: Know, recording anything.

920
00:51:27,400 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 9: You know, it made me really wonder how.

921
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:31,319
Speaker 8: Much she might have been coached to get as good

922
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,760
Speaker 8: as she got in her statement in the first place.

923
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:39,720
Speaker 2: You know, did Byron ask you to lie for him

924
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:40,880
Speaker 2: to be an alibi?

925
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:43,560
Speaker 7: No?

926
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 6: No, would you?

927
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 3: Would you lie for him?

928
00:51:47,960 --> 00:51:48,040
Speaker 9: No?

929
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:54,400
Speaker 8: This, I mean, it's weird at this point, being you know,

930
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:55,759
Speaker 8: like the only.

931
00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 9: One left alive that you know, seem to know all

932
00:51:58,840 --> 00:51:59,200
Speaker 9: of them.

933
00:52:00,200 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 8: But at the time, you know, it was a lot

934
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 8: more you know, supporting information.

935
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:11,279
Speaker 6: I think to the extent.

936
00:52:11,040 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 9: That we you know, ever talked about it, like, I think.

937
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,920
Speaker 6: All of us kind of assumed it was justin because I.

938
00:52:16,840 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 9: Mean, I remember, I don't remember like all the exact details,

939
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:25,280
Speaker 9: but I remember, like Kelly and Byron all.

940
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:27,799
Speaker 8: Having kind of the same questions you know as far

941
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:31,399
Speaker 8: as after Justin had killed himself and it's like, well,

942
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:31,960
Speaker 8: you know.

943
00:52:31,960 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 6: How did this go down?

944
00:52:33,239 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 8: Like did he go out and I see her later

945
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 8: that night. I think that was all of our thoughts,

946
00:52:38,760 --> 00:52:41,560
Speaker 8: you know, kind of after he killed himself, like was

947
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:44,879
Speaker 8: trying to put that, trying to understand, you know, kind

948
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 8: of what happened and when and why.

949
00:52:47,280 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 9: I mean, I don't think anyone was ever.

950
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,359
Speaker 8: Satisfied with the investigation of the results of it.

951
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 2: Throughout twenty twenty three, Byron's legal team continues to rack

952
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:14,840
Speaker 2: up affidavits, including those from two jurors. At Byron's trial,

953
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: one jur named Sarah McLeod Arena was played both versions

954
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: of the June fifth recorded call between Byron and Kelly.

955
00:53:23,680 --> 00:53:27,439
Speaker 2: In her affidavit, miss Arena says the poor quality one

956
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 2: was the one she heard at trial, and that she

957
00:53:30,640 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 2: relied on the transcript to determine what was being said

958
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: on the recording. She goes on to write, quote, I

959
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:40,879
Speaker 2: am questioning our verdict. I would have liked to hear

960
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:44,680
Speaker 2: this information at trial, including the information that Kelly perjured

961
00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: herself by lying about her criminal record, that there is

962
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:52,440
Speaker 2: evidence the victim Anastasia went home, and that the victim's

963
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,120
Speaker 2: father took out multiple insurance policies on her prior to

964
00:53:56,160 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 2: her death. She also says, quote, I did not find

965
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:04,239
Speaker 2: Kelly Moffitt credible at trial. There was a lot of

966
00:54:04,280 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 2: pressure during jury deliberations by other jurors to come to

967
00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 2: a quick verdict. I needed better facts to back up

968
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,760
Speaker 2: my doubt about Byron's guilt, but we didn't get.

969
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:14,960
Speaker 3: Those facts at trial.

970
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: I actually met up with an alternate juror at a

971
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,280
Speaker 2: library in Kansas named Rick Panic, who had a very

972
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:27,560
Speaker 2: different take. He doesn't remember a lot of the details

973
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:29,759
Speaker 2: that came out at trial, which by the way, was

974
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:33,080
Speaker 2: more than twenty years ago, but he does remember that

975
00:54:33,160 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 2: back in two thousand and two, he very much believed

976
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:41,080
Speaker 2: Byron was guilty, mostly because he believed Kelly's testimony and

977
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 2: he thought the June fifth recorded phone call was damning.

978
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:47,440
Speaker 2: When I shared with mister Panick some of what Byron's

979
00:54:47,440 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: team says proves Byron is innocent, like the clearer version

980
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 2: of the June fifth recorded phone call, and some of

981
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:58,240
Speaker 2: the affat David's, mister Panic says it doesn't change his opinion.

982
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:02,840
Speaker 2: He still believes Byron is guilty. But prior to getting

983
00:55:03,040 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 2: any of these affidavits, in the late summer of twenty

984
00:55:06,120 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: twenty two, Byron's legal team reaches out to the Jackson

985
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,160
Speaker 2: County Prosecutor's Office Conviction Integrity Unit, hoping they can work

986
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 2: together on this case. Here's one of Byron's attorneys, Sean O'Brien.

987
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,560
Speaker 13: So we had a meeting with them by zoom and

988
00:55:23,760 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 13: we're kind of laying out Byron's innocent Here's why at

989
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,360
Speaker 13: that point we had paused our investigation because our thought

990
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 13: was some of this investigation when it came to people

991
00:55:36,760 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 13: like the pathologist Thomas Young, the Regional Crime Lab, the

992
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,800
Speaker 13: Sheriff's office property room, we thought that it would be

993
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:51,560
Speaker 13: beneficial to have them with us to participate in that investigation.

994
00:55:52,200 --> 00:55:55,799
Speaker 13: We thought we'd get more honest responses. We thought that

995
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 13: there wouldn't be any questioning of the integrity the evidence.

996
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 13: We were doing it together with the Prosecutor's office, and

997
00:56:04,000 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 13: the very first thing they said to us is we

998
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 13: don't see the evidence the way you do. And we

999
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,040
Speaker 13: responded with, what are you choking on? You know what

1000
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:18,239
Speaker 13: the what is the issue you have here? And at

1001
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 13: the end of the day they said, sorry, we're not

1002
00:56:23,360 --> 00:56:26,400
Speaker 13: going to help you, you know, knock yourself out. You

1003
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,799
Speaker 13: can work on this case, but we don't see it

1004
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 13: as an innocence case. So when we're talking about conviction integrity,

1005
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:37,359
Speaker 13: what the hell does integrity mean?

1006
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:42,560
Speaker 2: On October thirty first, twenty twenty two, Byron's team sends

1007
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 2: the Conviction Integrity Unit a sixty six page document with

1008
00:56:46,840 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: all of their bullet points, citations and excerpts from the trial,

1009
00:56:50,640 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 2: and other documents supporting their claims. Again, the unit declines

1010
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:58,720
Speaker 2: to take the case. I would like to know why,

1011
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 2: so I requested interview with Jeane Peters Baker, the elected

1012
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 2: Jackson County prosecutor who started the Conviction Integrity Unit in

1013
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 2: twenty seventeen. First of all, Miss Baker, thank you so

1014
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:13,040
Speaker 2: much for taking the time to do this today. I really,

1015
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:14,279
Speaker 2: I really appreciate it.

1016
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 7: You're welcome and I was waiting for you in my lobby.

1017
00:57:17,160 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 2: Miss Baker has held the elected office since twenty eleven.

1018
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,000
Speaker 2: Before that, she was an assistant prosecutor for more than

1019
00:57:24,000 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 2: fifteen years. But why did you start the Conviction Integrity Unit?

1020
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:32,840
Speaker 14: I started it because there was a need to do it,

1021
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 14: and now I want to remind you though at that

1022
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:41,440
Speaker 14: time there was no legal mechanism that I, as the

1023
00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 14: local DA had to rectify a case.

1024
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:51,720
Speaker 2: But a big change comes in July of twenty twenty one.

1025
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:56,400
Speaker 2: That's when Missouri Governor Mike Parson signs Senate Bill fifty

1026
00:57:56,440 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 2: three into law, which, among other things, creates, quote a

1027
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 2: judicial procedure that provides a pathway for a prosecuting attorney

1028
00:58:04,720 --> 00:58:09,160
Speaker 2: to correct a miscarriage of justice resulting from a wrongful conviction.

1029
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: And what is the criteria for taking on someone's case.

1030
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,960
Speaker 14: What we want to see is someone that has some

1031
00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 14: kind of new evidence, something that would put that conviction

1032
00:58:22,120 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 14: in a light no longer favorable, you know, to the

1033
00:58:26,240 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 14: conviction itself. And so I can't say exactly what that is.

1034
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 14: There's not necessarily a laundry list. You need facts and witnesses.

1035
00:58:35,560 --> 00:58:41,120
Speaker 14: You cannot go on theory and strong feelings. You need

1036
00:58:41,320 --> 00:58:45,360
Speaker 14: because it's like any other case that you're sort of

1037
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 14: untrying it.

1038
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 7: This has to go before a try or fact.

1039
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:51,600
Speaker 14: This has to go before a judge, and a judge

1040
00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 14: has to be presented evidence whatever that is.

1041
00:58:56,640 --> 00:58:58,160
Speaker 2: If it's okay, I'd like to ask you a few

1042
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:59,560
Speaker 2: questions about buyern case.

1043
00:59:00,200 --> 00:59:00,520
Speaker 7: Okay.

1044
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:07,000
Speaker 2: So his legal team they came to your office hoping

1045
00:59:07,080 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 2: that they could collaborate an investigation or see if you

1046
00:59:11,040 --> 00:59:14,479
Speaker 2: could work together to try to investigate the case. And

1047
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:15,480
Speaker 2: what happened with that?

1048
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:21,760
Speaker 14: So Byron is Byron case is much like other cases

1049
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 14: that I've had where people have brought me some level

1050
00:59:25,520 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 14: of information and it's short, it's you know, it's it's

1051
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 14: not something that a judge would hear this and find

1052
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 14: the person actually innocent.

1053
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,479
Speaker 7: So it requires some additional work.

1054
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 14: In Byron case's case, we did do that extra work,

1055
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:45,760
Speaker 14: and there's just I just want to tell you there's

1056
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:50,960
Speaker 14: another piece to this that is too often overlooked. Like

1057
00:59:51,040 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 14: in Byron's case, Kelly is a witness who has not

1058
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 14: moved with all the pressure that she's received, she has

1059
01:00:00,800 --> 01:00:01,360
Speaker 14: not moved.

1060
01:00:01,840 --> 01:00:03,480
Speaker 7: Her testimony would be the same.

1061
01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:06,439
Speaker 14: You know that that perhaps is just how it goes

1062
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:11,080
Speaker 14: with criminal cases that you're never quite done. But this

1063
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:14,000
Speaker 14: has had quite an impact on her life. You know,

1064
01:00:14,240 --> 01:00:18,040
Speaker 14: my office contacting her, you know, somewhat recently to say

1065
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 14: we're back, we want to talk to you again. It's

1066
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 14: not that part is not as sexy for people to

1067
01:00:25,040 --> 01:00:28,040
Speaker 14: do podcasts about or do shows about.

1068
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:30,680
Speaker 7: And you know, it's just the other side of it.

1069
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:35,760
Speaker 14: And I've had more of those than I've had, you know,

1070
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 14: opportunities to free someone bluntly under the statute that I

1071
01:00:40,800 --> 01:00:46,600
Speaker 14: have up here. Under this statute, Byron, case cannot be

1072
01:00:46,680 --> 01:00:52,439
Speaker 14: freed from prison because a judge would need to hear

1073
01:00:52,760 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 14: evidence and when I called that, and that evidence is

1074
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,640
Speaker 14: viewed in the light most favorable to the verdict. So

1075
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 14: then I have to you know, a judge would have

1076
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:06,280
Speaker 14: to say, prosecutor call your first witness. I call Kelly.

1077
01:01:06,600 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 14: Kelly says the same thing she said before, except now

1078
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 14: whatever potential for it's so many years have passed, sort

1079
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,959
Speaker 14: of her reason for that. You might attack her for

1080
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,360
Speaker 14: for lying, you know, in the in the first case.

1081
01:01:22,000 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 14: It's kind of not quite there this time. And although

1082
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 14: I'm sure you could find some reasons, they don't. They're

1083
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 14: not there from from my review and from the other

1084
01:01:32,720 --> 01:01:37,640
Speaker 14: lawyers who reviewed that case. And the tacit admission made

1085
01:01:37,880 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 14: by mister Case would be viewed most likely again as

1086
01:01:43,480 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 14: a tacit admission. So I reviewed the evidence. I went

1087
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:53,840
Speaker 14: back and reviewed witnesses. This is not just an exercise

1088
01:01:53,880 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 14: for me. This is I want to get it right.

1089
01:01:56,840 --> 01:01:59,640
Speaker 14: And that doesn't mean, you know that I want to

1090
01:01:59,640 --> 01:02:02,360
Speaker 14: free everybody. It means I want to free those who

1091
01:02:02,400 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 14: should be freed, and it means I want to keep

1092
01:02:05,120 --> 01:02:08,560
Speaker 14: those in prison who committed the crime. And the only

1093
01:02:08,600 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 14: way I know to do that is on actual evidence,

1094
01:02:11,840 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 14: not on theory, not on romantic.

1095
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 7: Views of evidence.

1096
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:20,760
Speaker 14: You know, on mister case, it is issues of goth

1097
01:02:21,080 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 14: and a cemetery drug use. You know, there's a lot

1098
01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,760
Speaker 14: in there, you know, for it to be something that

1099
01:02:26,840 --> 01:02:29,400
Speaker 14: could be interesting for someone, But at the end of

1100
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,000
Speaker 14: the day, the evidence still holds.

1101
01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: Just a couple of follow up questions, you said you

1102
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:37,320
Speaker 2: reached out or you wanted to talk to Kelly again.

1103
01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 2: For what reason did you want to talk to Kelly again?

1104
01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 7: Well, that's what we do.

1105
01:02:42,040 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 14: That's what a conviction integrity integrity unit does.

1106
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,680
Speaker 2: I'm sorry to interrupt you. So when Byron's team came

1107
01:02:48,720 --> 01:02:50,439
Speaker 2: to you, that's when you reached out to her.

1108
01:02:50,760 --> 01:02:53,760
Speaker 14: Of course, with you know, after some time after going

1109
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 14: through the file looking at it, and yes, we felt

1110
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 14: like that's our obligation to do that.

1111
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 7: And I want you to know we do.

1112
01:03:01,280 --> 01:03:04,800
Speaker 14: That based off of the credibility that the defense brings

1113
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:07,800
Speaker 14: when the defense attorney brings us this issue.

1114
01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 7: I take that seriously.

1115
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:12,520
Speaker 14: And the reason I take it seriously is because I

1116
01:03:12,640 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 14: want to get it right too, Because maybe that you know,

1117
01:03:17,600 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 14: the wrong person is in prison and the right person.

1118
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:21,840
Speaker 7: Is still out there.

1119
01:03:22,160 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 14: It's two wrongs, so we have I have every reason

1120
01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 14: to want to correct this on behalf of victims, and

1121
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:33,840
Speaker 14: of course on behalf of the people that were wrongfully accused.

1122
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 2: From what I understand, since Byron's legal team came to

1123
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 2: you I think twenty twenty two, they've since gotten affidavits

1124
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 2: from Horton Lance, you know, Byron's defense attorney, from doctor Young,

1125
01:03:50,000 --> 01:03:54,760
Speaker 2: the medical examiner, and other people, and Charles and Judge Atwell,

1126
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:59,000
Speaker 2: when you heard or read any of what was in

1127
01:03:59,040 --> 01:04:01,760
Speaker 2: those affidavits, what did you think?

1128
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:02,800
Speaker 6: Well?

1129
01:04:02,840 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 7: I thought it was a case that required another look.

1130
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 14: I thought it was a case that required we take

1131
01:04:08,400 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 14: another look at it and make sure that we got

1132
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 14: it right. Let's you know, even though we are a

1133
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 14: busy office, we can't be so busy that we don't

1134
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:17,560
Speaker 14: we don't keep looking.

1135
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,439
Speaker 2: And you still believe, or you still firmly believe that

1136
01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 2: there's there's nothing there for the units to follow up

1137
01:04:25,160 --> 01:04:26,240
Speaker 2: on or.

1138
01:04:26,680 --> 01:04:32,000
Speaker 14: Yes, I think in this case, I firmly believe that

1139
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 14: if I brought what the defense asked me to bring

1140
01:04:35,280 --> 01:04:38,320
Speaker 14: before a judge, and I, the prosecutor, now have to

1141
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:42,360
Speaker 14: present evidence of his innocence, I couldn't get it done

1142
01:04:42,760 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 14: under this statute because it's not theory. It has to

1143
01:04:46,640 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 14: be evidence that is proffered to a judge in a

1144
01:04:50,520 --> 01:04:54,480
Speaker 14: courtroom that does indicate actual innocence or you know that

1145
01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 14: there was a like I said, a constitutional error that

1146
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:00,800
Speaker 14: has not all been taken up.

1147
01:05:02,040 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 2: Byron's team says there is a constitutional error that hasn't

1148
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:10,400
Speaker 2: been raised before in the form of Brady violations, evidence

1149
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,840
Speaker 2: of Kelly's criminal record and Bob Whipple's Fuchen's emails that

1150
01:05:14,920 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: were never turned over to Byron's defense attorney Horton Lance.

1151
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:19,240
Speaker 3: Because I mean.

1152
01:05:19,160 --> 01:05:22,000
Speaker 2: Byron's team says that there were Brady violations, that there were,

1153
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:26,200
Speaker 2: you know, some emails between Anastage's dad and you know,

1154
01:05:26,280 --> 01:05:28,960
Speaker 2: not to hand it over to Horton Lance. Even with

1155
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 2: that stuff, would it really only take I don't mean

1156
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 2: only it would be huge, but would it take Kelly's recantation?

1157
01:05:35,200 --> 01:05:38,560
Speaker 14: I can't say there, I mean, there's always it is

1158
01:05:38,600 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 14: what it is. Okay, I don't mean to sound cute

1159
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:43,720
Speaker 14: about that, but it is. You know, I'm going to

1160
01:05:43,840 --> 01:05:47,640
Speaker 14: evaluate what there is to see. So maybe there could

1161
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:50,480
Speaker 14: be another person we didn't know about that now provides

1162
01:05:50,520 --> 01:05:54,440
Speaker 14: information or that would put Kelly's testimony in a different light,

1163
01:05:54,720 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 14: and that doesn't exist.

1164
01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:59,800
Speaker 2: I then ask miss Baker about the first prosecutor on

1165
01:05:59,840 --> 01:06:04,680
Speaker 2: this case who had been accused of some prosecutorial misconduct

1166
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:09,520
Speaker 2: on other cases. Amy McGowan was on the case at

1167
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: the very beginning. Would that ever be a reason to

1168
01:06:12,640 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 2: look at it again because of a little a track

1169
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 2: record or some misdeeds that had been done by her

1170
01:06:18,520 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 2: on other cases.

1171
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 7: Of course, yes, and we did look at that.

1172
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 14: That's we didn't We didn't see that there was really

1173
01:06:27,240 --> 01:06:30,800
Speaker 14: any involvement by Amy McGowan that put this in a

1174
01:06:30,800 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 14: different light either well, and ultimately, you know this, like

1175
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 14: I said, this is not an exercise. It is the

1176
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,480
Speaker 14: prosecuting attorney's credibility that is on the line. And when

1177
01:06:43,520 --> 01:06:46,680
Speaker 14: I offer a case like this, I'm not going to

1178
01:06:46,760 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 14: just go take a shot in the dark.

1179
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 7: I need to believe it.

1180
01:06:50,200 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 2: Right, I mean, I think ultimately everyone wants the right

1181
01:06:53,120 --> 01:06:54,840
Speaker 2: person to pay for the crime.

1182
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 14: Amen, we should all agree on that. We should always

1183
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 14: all agree on that.

1184
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:04,240
Speaker 2: Since we recorded this interview, Miss Baker, who did not

1185
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: seek reelection in November of twenty twenty four, left the

1186
01:07:08,240 --> 01:07:12,800
Speaker 2: Jackson County Prosecutor's Office and today is a private citizen.

1187
01:07:13,800 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 2: So after Byron's team strikes out with the Conviction Integrity

1188
01:07:17,800 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 2: Unit in December of twenty twenty three, they file a

1189
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 2: one hundred and thirty nine page emotion with the Court

1190
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 2: of Appeals. Here's Byron's attorney, Brian Russell.

1191
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 15: So currently, the motion that we filed is it's something

1192
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,800
Speaker 15: called a motion to recall the mandate. When a Court

1193
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,680
Speaker 15: of Appeals issues a decision, it's called its mandate. There

1194
01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:44,280
Speaker 15: are very very limited circumstances where a Court of Appeals

1195
01:07:44,320 --> 01:07:47,040
Speaker 15: can take that mandate back. One of them is fraud

1196
01:07:47,080 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 15: on the court, or constitutional violations within the mandate, or

1197
01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 15: that are perpetuated by the mandate, or some retroactive decision

1198
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,600
Speaker 15: of the US Supreme Court that would impact the outcome.

1199
01:08:01,640 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 15: And we've got all three of those in this case.

1200
01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:08,720
Speaker 15: We've got the tape, which is a material mistake of

1201
01:08:08,800 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 15: fact or fraud, and then we have all this undisclosed

1202
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:16,240
Speaker 15: evidence such as the emails showing that Anastasia went home

1203
01:08:16,240 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 15: and changed clothes, Kelly Moffitt's conviction and how that conviction

1204
01:08:21,200 --> 01:08:26,679
Speaker 15: was had while she was cooperating with Jackson County.

1205
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:27,920
Speaker 3: Here's sawn again.

1206
01:08:29,160 --> 01:08:31,960
Speaker 13: This was a thin case in the beginning, and the

1207
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 13: Court of Appeal struggled to affirm the conviction. And now

1208
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,799
Speaker 13: they know that what they used to confront to affirm

1209
01:08:39,840 --> 01:08:43,360
Speaker 13: the conviction were lies, false evidence, and so this is

1210
01:08:43,520 --> 01:08:48,400
Speaker 13: obviously a false evidence case if the phone call with

1211
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:52,879
Speaker 13: Byron had not been falsified. Kelly Moffett is an unbelievable witness,

1212
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:56,160
Speaker 13: But it comes down to this. The Court of Appeal says, well,

1213
01:08:56,200 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 13: you can attack Kelly all you want, and yes, there

1214
01:08:58,160 --> 01:09:00,760
Speaker 13: are a lot of things that say she's unreliable, but

1215
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 13: we have the tape. You can attack the tape all

1216
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,680
Speaker 13: you want, but we have an eyewitness who is supported

1217
01:09:06,680 --> 01:09:10,680
Speaker 13: by the physical evidence. None of that's true, None of

1218
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 13: it's true. It's all been disproven and so the two

1219
01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 13: legs of this case have both been sawed off. Nothing

1220
01:09:18,479 --> 01:09:19,160
Speaker 13: to hold it up.

1221
01:09:20,680 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 2: When I interviewed Byron's lawyers, they were expecting a decision

1222
01:09:24,160 --> 01:09:27,400
Speaker 2: on the motion any day. They were hopeful it would

1223
01:09:27,400 --> 01:09:29,880
Speaker 2: be granted and it would lead to a new trial.

1224
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:34,479
Speaker 2: A month later, on February twenty seventh, twenty twenty four,

1225
01:09:35,200 --> 01:09:40,880
Speaker 2: the motion was denied. Devastated, but not deterred, their fight

1226
01:09:41,120 --> 01:09:46,120
Speaker 2: continues next time on The Real Killer.

1227
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:49,760
Speaker 12: He found out a little before he got home that

1228
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:55,719
Speaker 12: Anastasia had not come home, so I knew that Bob

1229
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:57,840
Speaker 12: had gone to find her.

1230
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:02,839
Speaker 2: A new witness comes forward with a bombshell of a story.

1231
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:06,760
Speaker 12: I just remember him saying he couldn't get her to

1232
01:10:06,800 --> 01:10:09,559
Speaker 12: get in the car. Bob said he tried to get

1233
01:10:09,560 --> 01:10:13,439
Speaker 12: her into the car.

1234
01:10:15,680 --> 01:10:19,240
Speaker 2: The views and opinions expressed in this podcast are solely

1235
01:10:19,320 --> 01:10:24,679
Speaker 2: those of the individuals participating in the podcast. To see photos, maps,

1236
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 2: and documents related to this season's story, follow The Real

1237
01:10:28,080 --> 01:10:33,080
Speaker 2: Killer podcast on Instagram and at trk podcast on TikTok.

1238
01:10:35,800 --> 01:10:40,400
Speaker 2: The Real Killer is a production of AYR Media and iHeartMedia,

1239
01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:45,360
Speaker 2: hosted by me Leah Rothman. Executive producers Leah Rothman and

1240
01:10:45,400 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 2: Elisa Rosen.

1241
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:47,639
Speaker 3: For AYR Media.

1242
01:10:48,400 --> 01:10:53,240
Speaker 2: Written by Leah Rothman, editing and sound design by Cameron Taggi,

1243
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:59,560
Speaker 2: mixed and mastered by Cameron Taggi. Audio engineer Justin Longerbeam

1244
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 2: studio engineer Graham Gibson, Legal counsel for A y R Media,

1245
01:11:05,640 --> 01:11:10,559
Speaker 2: Johnny Douglas, executive producer for iHeartMedia, Maya Howard,