1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:01,599 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. 2 00:00:01,680 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 2: Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, 3 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 2: and we are so excited about what that means for 4 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 2: the future of this show. 5 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:10,760 Speaker 1: This is the only place where you can find honest 6 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:13,239 Speaker 1: perspectives from the left and the right that simply does 7 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:14,680 Speaker 1: not exist anywhere else. 8 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,080 Speaker 2: So if that is something that's important to you, please 9 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 2: go to Breakingpoints dot com. Become a member today and 10 00:00:19,640 --> 00:00:22,800 Speaker 2: you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, 11 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:25,600 Speaker 2: and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. 12 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: We need your help to build the future of independent 13 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 1: news media and we hope to see you at Breakingpoints 14 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: dot com. 15 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 2: All right, guys, we are very lucky to be joined 16 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 2: this morning by Jannis very Faukas. He is an economist, 17 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 2: He is a best selling author, He is a podcast 18 00:00:40,400 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 2: host of the Econoclass, and he is the former Finance 19 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 2: Minister of Greece. 20 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 3: Great to Seezar, Good to see you. 21 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 4: Thank you for having me. 22 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, So let's start with this first ettlement 23 00:00:49,240 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 2: and put this up on the screen. This is the 24 00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 2: President of the United States claiming to be the president 25 00:00:55,320 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: the acting president of Venezuela. I'm curious, just off the 26 00:00:59,840 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 2: time here. How significant you think the kidnapping Amadoro and 27 00:01:04,680 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 2: now Trump's claims that we run Venezuela and we're going 28 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:10,160 Speaker 2: to take their oil. How significant do you think this 29 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,679 Speaker 2: mode of US operation and foreign policy is to the 30 00:01:13,720 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: world and to our own politics. 31 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:19,520 Speaker 4: Weether the significant, there is no doubt. The question is 32 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 4: what kind of significance are we detecting in this very 33 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 4: confusing stage that we found ourselves in. Just seeing the 34 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,880 Speaker 4: picture that you put on the screen reminded me that 35 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:34,080 Speaker 4: this is not the first time he does it. Remember, 36 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 4: only a few months ago he declared himself to be 37 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 4: the owner, the person who has actually annexed personally that 38 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,639 Speaker 4: has never happened in history before Gaza. He declared himself 39 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 4: to be the head of a company that is taking 40 00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 4: over Gaza. And then, of course, you know, before we 41 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 4: had a chance to scratch our heads and see what 42 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:58,000 Speaker 4: that means for the people of Gaza, whose lives are devastated, 43 00:01:58,560 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 4: and you know, whose generous dis continuing, he abducts Maduro 44 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 4: and he declares himself to be the acting ruler or 45 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 4: owner of Venezuela. And then on the same day he 46 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 4: talks about Greenland. I wouldn't be surprised if this confusion 47 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 4: is strategic and the whole point is to continue to 48 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 4: build up a reputation for accumulating territories, accumulating companies, accumulating 49 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 4: stable coins, accumulating different kinds of resources for himself and 50 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,800 Speaker 4: his clique, in order to make it far more alluding 51 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 4: for powerful people around the world in the United States 52 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:48,280 Speaker 4: as well to do deals with him, hoping to get 53 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 4: some crumbs of his overlaiden table. 54 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: One of the things that we've seen at you know, 55 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 1: backing up your point, we can put the next one 56 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: up here on the screen. For example, Exxon Mobile, one 57 00:02:58,280 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: of the largest oil companies here in the United States, 58 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 1: apparently told the President at a recent meeting on Friday 59 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: that actually they weren't all that interested in investing in Venezuela. 60 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: President Trump saying they're playing too cute, saying he may 61 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: block them from some eventual deal. You know, I do 62 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 1: think that this bolster is your point. But I'm wondering 63 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: if you see this as any bigger strategic play that 64 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: may not just have Trump and his own personal interests 65 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: or those around him, but a bigger kind of driving 66 00:03:23,639 --> 00:03:25,200 Speaker 1: motivation for the United States. 67 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 4: Well, there's no such things as the United States. We 68 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 4: should never talk in terms of national interest. There's no 69 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,240 Speaker 4: such thing. There are different cliques, there are different ruling classes, 70 00:03:36,560 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 4: and they have different interests. The interest of some of 71 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 4: the majority of the people in the United States never 72 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,720 Speaker 4: had anything to do with it. With the agenda and 73 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 4: the strategy of democratic presidents of Republican presidents. I'm just 74 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 4: stating this so that you know where I'm coming from. 75 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 4: But there is a strategic plan. And you know, one 76 00:03:56,920 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 4: of the great mistakes of the Democrats in the United 77 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 4: States centric in Europe is they have dismissed Trump as 78 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:07,640 Speaker 4: a buffoon who has absolutely no strategic vision. You know, 79 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 4: he's haphazard, he moves from one disaster to another. He's 80 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 4: a fool who somehow has managed to defeat them so handsomely. 81 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 4: I don't take that to you. I consider him to 82 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 4: be a political adversary, a political, if you want, even 83 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 4: esthetically speaking, enemy of mine. But I take very seriously 84 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 4: his strategic plan, and you know what he has put 85 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,359 Speaker 4: it on paper, not so much himself, but you know, 86 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 4: before his inaugration, second inauguration, I studied very very carefully 87 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 4: the texts that have come out of his team, like 88 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 4: you know things that Scott Peasant has said and written, 89 00:04:48,760 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 4: you know the Marra a Lago, famous Mara Alago paper. 90 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,600 Speaker 4: It's clear what the strategy is. Trump looks at the 91 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 4: last sixty years and what he sees is a period 92 00:05:04,240 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 4: that some people refer to it as the period of globalization. 93 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 4: Others referred to it as the neo liberal period or 94 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:15,719 Speaker 4: the globalist period. It's a period that started in nineteen 95 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 4: seventy one with Richard Nixon, when Richard Nixon and his team, 96 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:24,160 Speaker 4: not himself personally, blew up the breadon wood system. So 97 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 4: why did that happen. It happened because the United States 98 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 4: ceased to be a surplus country. It slipped into the 99 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 4: deficity position. And you know Henry Kissinger, who was part 100 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:38,440 Speaker 4: of Nixon's team then, even before he became Foreign Minister, 101 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 4: before he moved to the State Department, when he was 102 00:05:41,480 --> 00:05:46,240 Speaker 4: still at the National Security Council, he put a very 103 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 4: simple question to his team and said, well, now we're 104 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 4: in a deficit country, how can we maintain Germany? And 105 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,080 Speaker 4: the answer is, blow up the breadon wood system, use 106 00:05:55,120 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 4: the dollar as a weapon, devalue the dollar while enhancing 107 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,960 Speaker 4: it's reserve currency. Stages. It's hegemonic stages. So you know, 108 00:06:07,360 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 4: Tump looks at that is I want to do this 109 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,840 Speaker 4: again because the Nixon shock is pattering out after two 110 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 4: thousand and eight, American Germany is being seriously contested. I 111 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 4: want to give it another twelve and I'm going to 112 00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:22,479 Speaker 4: do it in a way that will make me and 113 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 4: mine mates lots of money as well. So you know, 114 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:29,239 Speaker 4: the the valuation of the dollars is not a failure. 115 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:34,360 Speaker 4: It is an aim. The issue of stable coins and 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 4: the legitimation of cryptocurrencies. The Genius Act that was passed 117 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 4: recently by Congress or in Congress through Congress is an 118 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 4: attempt to privatize feed money the dollar. The attack on 119 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 4: the Federal Reserve is part of this plan. There is 120 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,919 Speaker 4: a clash between old money and new money. There is 121 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:57,039 Speaker 4: Wall State on the one hand that is very coy 122 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:01,440 Speaker 4: about this whole thing. But then there is the prolgargus. 123 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 4: There's that are issuing stable coins at the expense of 124 00:07:06,880 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: Wall Street, and they've had the reserve. So there is 125 00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 4: a strategy. There is a huge conflict within different oligarchic interests, 126 00:07:18,280 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 4: and Trump is playing a very smart game and keeping 127 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 4: all these people hating each other and you know, competing 128 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:27,640 Speaker 4: for his graces. 129 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 2: So I listen to a lot of your parances and 130 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 2: your speeches that you give, and I think it's really 131 00:07:33,760 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: important to assume that your adversary is not just an idiot, 132 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:40,400 Speaker 2: that there is some sort of a strategy there. But 133 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: sometimes I do have trouble holding that in my head 134 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 2: with Trump, for example, when I think of his tariff policy, 135 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 2: which you know from the jump the percentages that were 136 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,880 Speaker 2: chosen were seemingly random or ai generated. You know, he'll 137 00:07:53,920 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 2: go into these negotiations and come out of them basically 138 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:59,560 Speaker 2: rolling the terrorists back or going back to where we started. 139 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 2: We now have an announcement yesterday that now anyone who 140 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: does any sort of trade with Iran is going to 141 00:08:04,760 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: have a twenty five percent tariff. You've also had situations 142 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 2: where his own personal emotions and grievances seem to be 143 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 2: driving the tariff policy. Brazil being a key example here, 144 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: where initially he was mad at Lula over their prosecution 145 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 2: to Bolscenaro. Then, according to journalist Glenn Greenwald, Lula came 146 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,120 Speaker 2: in and charmed him, said that Bolscenario guy. You wouldn't 147 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 2: like him. He's weak, he's always in the hospital. He's 148 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 2: kind of a loser. Trump decides he likes Lula, rolls 149 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: back the tariffs. So when I look at those sorts 150 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,600 Speaker 2: of things, I'm like, how can this be a grand 151 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:35,599 Speaker 2: strategy when it's so all over the place and so 152 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 2: driven by his own emotions and personal grievances day to day. 153 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 4: Look, I can't resist the temptation to agree with much 154 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:48,800 Speaker 4: of what you said. But at the same time, let 155 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:54,559 Speaker 4: me continue along the lines of my earlier position. I 156 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 4: mentioned Richard Nixon before. Now we all know what the 157 00:08:57,640 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 4: flowed character. He was psychopath. He was really okay, I mean, 158 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 4: he was moody. He was a very poor excuse for 159 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 4: human nature. And yet it was under his administration that 160 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 4: the world changed. They blew up the post war miracle system, 161 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 4: the Breton War system, and they replaced it with chaos. 162 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 4: It was designed chaos. John Connelly, the Treasury secretary of 163 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 4: Brigard Nixon, traveled to Europe and effectively did the Trump 164 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 4: on them. He said, you know, guys, you're on your own. 165 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,079 Speaker 4: The dollar is our currency, but from today it's going 166 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 4: to be a huge problem. I don't give a damn. 167 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:44,719 Speaker 4: You can go and jump. This is all about maintaining 168 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,079 Speaker 4: and enhancing American in Germany while at the same time 169 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:51,559 Speaker 4: increasing our deficits. And I'm going to divide the dollar. Now. 170 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 4: You mentioned the use of tariffs by Donald Trump. Well 171 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 4: he's not the first one to have used tariffs as 172 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 4: a running rod as a weapon. Ronald Reagan in nineteen 173 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:12,319 Speaker 4: eighty five, remember the so called Plaza Accords, the Plaza debates. 174 00:10:12,480 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 4: What did you do? He got the Japanese in one 175 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 4: room and said, okay, you have grown your trade circles 176 00:10:21,720 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 4: with the United States immeasurably, and I'm going to smack 177 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 4: you over the head with the blunt instrument. And the 178 00:10:26,800 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 4: bland instrument is one hundred and fifty percent tariffs. If 179 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 4: you don't agree to revalue, to increase the value of 180 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 4: the end effectively to devalue the American dollar visa the 181 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,079 Speaker 4: Japanese currents, and you know they rolled over and the 182 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 4: result is that Japanese finished ever since the Plaza Accords. 183 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 4: So it's you know all this, I mean, in a sense, 184 00:10:52,679 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 4: you're quite right, he's bringing a new intensity of chaotic behavior. Uh. 185 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 4: And a lot of it is personal. But you know 186 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 4: you said that it were there were ai or randomly 187 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 4: chosen tariff phraates. Look by the way they went on, 188 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:18,319 Speaker 4: there was a very simple deterministic formula. He simply computed 189 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 4: his tyriffs, the Liberation Day tariffs in proportion to the 190 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,719 Speaker 4: trade deficit of the United States had particular countries. It 191 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,959 Speaker 4: was really very There was nothing reciprocal about them. It goes, 192 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 4: you know, the the greater your trade surplus towards the 193 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:32,439 Speaker 4: United States, the greater the tariff. I'm going to stop on. 194 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 4: You never meant to keep these These were simply, you know, 195 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 4: these blunt instruments that he used to batter people around, 196 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 4: to hit them about the head, and then to say, okay, 197 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 4: now come and negotiate with me, each one of you 198 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 4: there separately. Now he has gone into a territory of 199 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:57,840 Speaker 4: personal self celebration that we've never seen from any American 200 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,880 Speaker 4: president in the past. That's that's quite correct. I mean, 201 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:05,440 Speaker 4: I was astonished the way he has behaved visibly Prime 202 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 4: Minister Modive of India. One would have thought that the 203 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:15,800 Speaker 4: United States will be very eager to see India move 204 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:18,839 Speaker 4: away from China, move away from the breaks, you know, 205 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 4: going to bed with the Trump administration. He hasn't done that, 206 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:29,679 Speaker 4: and instead he has chosen to make the issue of 207 00:12:29,720 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 4: whether he was the one that stopped the recent skirmish 208 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:37,439 Speaker 4: war between India and Pakistan the determined whether he's going 209 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,599 Speaker 4: to increase the titles or not. So he does that. 210 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 4: But you know that, I mean, the madman strategy, we 211 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 4: have to remember, was devised by Round Corporation in the 212 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 4: nineteen fifties as a rational game theoretical way of behaving, 213 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,559 Speaker 4: because if you convince people that you are mad, then 214 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 4: they will think twice before they confront you. 215 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:03,000 Speaker 2: I am fairly convinced, so it has been effective in that. 216 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:04,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, there you No, you're absolutely right. 217 00:13:04,920 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: Actually, you mentioned the Federal Reserve, giving your expertise, I'm 218 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: curious for what your view is here about Trump's current 219 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,959 Speaker 1: attack on the Federal Reserve. You're saying it's in a 220 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,800 Speaker 1: privatized manner. There's also some, you know, complaint about interest 221 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 1: rates domestically here in the United States. I do also 222 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: just curious for your take for kind of the global 223 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: outcry of support that Powell now has. I mean, you know, 224 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: multiple central bank leaders from around the world this morning 225 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: signing a letter saying that they are supportive of Jerome Powell. 226 00:13:33,559 --> 00:13:34,199 Speaker 3: How do you see that? 227 00:13:34,280 --> 00:13:37,680 Speaker 1: You know you were talking about oligarchic interests. The Federal 228 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: Reserve obviously a keynote in that. 229 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 4: By the way, you know, these central bankers will never 230 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 4: learn by signing that letter in support of Jerome Powell, 231 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 4: they're handling a huge, huge gift over to Donald Trump. 232 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 4: Because Donald Trump's base hates all these people. So when 233 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 4: they see that, they are quite lessing together in support 234 00:13:56,960 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 4: of the Feds. Gairman know Trump is is applauding all this. 235 00:14:04,640 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 4: You know, it's amazing. You know those center is the 236 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 4: liberal establishment, how in name they are? I remember, do 237 00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 4: you remember during the Brexitter referendum in Britain, when you know, 238 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 4: Mario Dragy from the Central Bank of Europe and you know, 239 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 4: various finance ministers and bankers and central bankers generally were 240 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 4: warning the British people, don't you dare vote for Brexit 241 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 4: because Arbageddon is going to be fully and I knew 242 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 4: at that moment that Brexit would win because these kinds 243 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 4: of letters of support for the liberal establishment don't help 244 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 4: the liberal estabishment. Look what's happening here is this There 245 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 4: are different discussions. You could have one is, you know, 246 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 4: is the interstate policy of the Fed appropriate. I hate 247 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 4: to say that, I really love to say that, but 248 00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 4: I think that Trump is right. The raid of interest 249 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 4: is not. If it's going to stay at such high levels, 250 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 4: it's not going to do anything in order to reduce 251 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 4: the cost of living to reduce inflation. Inflation is not 252 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 4: controlled by interstates anymore. We have to understand that. Now 253 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:16,240 Speaker 4: we have what I call in a recent book of mine, 254 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 4: entire technofy that it's sorry for plugging it, but it's 255 00:15:19,360 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 4: important in order to make the point that if you 256 00:15:22,840 --> 00:15:27,400 Speaker 4: go to groceries around the United States, not just Walmart 257 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:33,040 Speaker 4: or you know Amazon, but you know bricks and mortar groceries, 258 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 4: many of them, thousands of them are being controlled in 259 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 4: terms of their pricing by Instagart, which is a techno 260 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:49,160 Speaker 4: feudal company that effectively uses very sophisticated algorithmic systems for 261 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 4: ensuring that you cannot compare prices between different stores. You 262 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 4: cannot even compare prices, prices the prices you pay with 263 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:03,120 Speaker 4: the prices that others pay. Its intense first degree price discrimination, 264 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,680 Speaker 4: which is algorithmic. And we know that Instagard on its own, 265 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 4: along with Amazon dot com have contributed to an increase 266 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 4: in the value of grosseries by thirty percent. Now there's 267 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 4: nothing that the federal result can do that. Even if 268 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 4: they put up interstates to ten percent, that kind of 269 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 4: technological inflation, inflation created by what I call that nonvidio, 270 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 4: is not going to go away. So I fear I 271 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 4: hate saying that that. On the question of interstates, I 272 00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 4: think that Trump is right. But there's a bigger question, 273 00:16:34,640 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 4: the question about the so called hypothesis or aspiration for 274 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 4: central bank independence, the idea that the elected government shouldn't 275 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 4: run monetary policy, monetary policy should be handed over to 276 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:55,600 Speaker 4: experts who on behalf of the whole of society make 277 00:16:55,720 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 4: dispassionate apolitical decisions. Well, you know that's rubbish. Is no 278 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 4: such things in a political decision? Who sets interest rates 279 00:17:03,640 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 4: is a political decision. And you know you have a 280 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:12,560 Speaker 4: class conflict. You have debtors and you have lenders. When 281 00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,239 Speaker 4: you increase the interesstrate, you fair a favor one at 282 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 4: the expense of the other. So it's a political decision. Now, 283 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:23,480 Speaker 4: the gist or however of it is. Remember, the Federal 284 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 4: Reserve Bank is not it's it's not even a state Bank. 285 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 4: It belongs to Wall Street formally, and not just formally, 286 00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,919 Speaker 4: but in terms of you know, when when when they 287 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,640 Speaker 4: speak of the independence of the central Bank, independence from whom, 288 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 4: independence from Congress, independence supposedly from the President, but not 289 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 4: independence from JP Morgan Morgan or the Bank of America. 290 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 4: So dependence on the bankers, whom they're bailing out when 291 00:17:56,359 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 4: the banker's bets go or it. So I but I 292 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:03,080 Speaker 4: don't have much time for independence, the independence of the 293 00:18:03,119 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 4: central Bank. Once upon a time there wasn't even this discussion. 294 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 4: I'm old enough to remember a time when no central 295 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 4: bank was independent. The Bank of England was not. Was 296 00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 4: you bound by each relationship with the British government someone. 297 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 4: What we now have, however, is not that Donald Trump 298 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 4: agreed with people like me and wants to democratize the 299 00:18:25,840 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 4: Federal Reserve and take it away from the bankers. Now 300 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 4: he is representing big tech, he's representing the stable coin industry. 301 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 4: He's representing you know, Facebook, Superberg and several upstarts that 302 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 4: want to privatize the American dollar and they want to 303 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 4: make use of the Genius Act in order to do this. 304 00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 4: And you know, all States is represented through the Fed 305 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 4: so there's a clash between old banking money and new 306 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 4: techno feederal money, and Trump is taken at the side 307 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:56,680 Speaker 4: of the latter. 308 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,159 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you some about the ideas 309 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 2: in your book, but first if you could tell our 310 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 2: audience a little bit about you were one of the 311 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:10,040 Speaker 2: most deep faked men on the internet, which is I mean, 312 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 2: it sounds sort of impressive, but I don't think it's 313 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,680 Speaker 2: really a positive thing. There are so many videos that really, 314 00:19:16,880 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 2: I mean, really look like you, really sound like you 315 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,680 Speaker 2: really appear to be things that you know, content that 316 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 2: you would say are along the lines of things that 317 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,400 Speaker 2: you would say. Can you talk about how you discovered 318 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,640 Speaker 2: this and how difficult it is to parse through whether 319 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: this is real Yannis vera facus or ai janis vera faucus, 320 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,600 Speaker 2: and also how the tech companies involved responded when you 321 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 2: reached out to them and flagged for them that this 322 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 2: was happening in a widespread manner. 323 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 4: It's such a dubious honor to be the one, probably 324 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 4: the most deep faked person on the internet. You know, 325 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 4: I have no idea why this has happened, absolutely none. 326 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:57,720 Speaker 4: Usually have theories about everything, but on this I'm stumped. 327 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:01,280 Speaker 4: I have to confess that the way I discovered this, 328 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:06,240 Speaker 4: I received a very flattering message text message on WhatsApp 329 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,200 Speaker 4: from an American scholar whose name i'm going to i'm 330 00:20:10,240 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 4: not going to mention of high regard and somebody I 331 00:20:13,800 --> 00:20:19,119 Speaker 4: really admire, and he was congratulating me on a video 332 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:23,560 Speaker 4: I had done on some economic matter. I can't remember 333 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 4: exactly what it was, and he had included the link 334 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 4: to the YouTube video and I clicked on it to 335 00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 4: admire myself, to say, Okay, this guy whom I highly appreciate, 336 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 4: like that video Minelet let me remind myself of which 337 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,920 Speaker 4: this video was. And I started looking at it, and 338 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 4: it took almost two minutes before I realized this wasn't me. 339 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:49,920 Speaker 4: And what's even worse is why I realized it wasn't 340 00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:53,040 Speaker 4: me because I was wearing a blue shirt with this 341 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 4: background here, but that blue shirt had never left my 342 00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 4: Eeland home in Agina, and I thought, how come I'm 343 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 4: wearing that blue shirt against this back. That's when I 344 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 4: started thinking, I'm gonna say, I don't remember saying these things. 345 00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 4: But the even eerier aspect of it was that there 346 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:13,840 Speaker 4: were things I could have said. But then, you know, 347 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,920 Speaker 4: interjected within that flow of arguments that I could have 348 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 4: made which I hadn't made. There were statements that I 349 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,639 Speaker 4: would never have made. And that's where the danger starts, 350 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 4: but comes especially for people who are politically exposed as 351 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 4: I am, I have lots of enemies that would love to, 352 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 4: you know, pretend, pretend present me as somebody that said something, 353 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 4: let's say anti Semitic, in order to take the wind 354 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:43,200 Speaker 4: out of my criticism Movi Isruel. Similarly with Russia, you know, 355 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 4: I'm I have made enemies everywhere because I am. I 356 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 4: believe that Putting this war criminal. At the same time, 357 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 4: I think Natal our war criminals still in the way 358 00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 4: they've been expanding and giving Putting the opportunity to do 359 00:21:57,880 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 4: that which he's doing. But you know, if you have 360 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 4: if you are standing against both Nata and put In, 361 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,359 Speaker 4: it's very easy for somebody to use deep fake in 362 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 4: order to insert the sentence in what you're saying that 363 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 4: completely destroys your credibility. So I wrote to Google because 364 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 4: it was the videos I saw were mostly on YouTube, 365 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 4: they were on Instagram and on TikTok. So I wrote 366 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 4: to Google, and I didn't get an answer for days 367 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 4: and then they asked me to fill forms in and 368 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:26,639 Speaker 4: I feel them in. And then they asked me to 369 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 4: feel some more forms in and I did that as well. 370 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:31,160 Speaker 4: And then it took you know, seven eight days before 371 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 4: they broke down that particular channel, and then it reappeared 372 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 4: twenty seconds later again in YouTube under a different name, 373 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,440 Speaker 4: a different channel. And it's very clear that, you know, 374 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,680 Speaker 4: this is not incompetence on the part of Big Tech. 375 00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 4: It's their business model. I mean, you know, my fake 376 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,080 Speaker 4: versions have a lot more views than I have. They 377 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 4: make a lot of money out of that, and Google 378 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 4: is simply not interested. And you know, I talked to 379 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 4: other people who are similarly the fake, like John Mitzheimer 380 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 4: from Chicago University and my great friend Jeff Sachs from 381 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 4: Columbia University, and we are in the same boat. 382 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 5: You know. 383 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 4: Do I spend the rest of my life litigating against 384 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 4: Big Tech? I mean, I don't have the results that 385 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 4: I still don't have the time, you know, I'm getting 386 00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 4: on in life. I'm not going to waste five years 387 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 4: of my life doing that. Would I win? Would I 388 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 4: remain solvent before the court case is finished? So it's 389 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 4: you know, it's one of these situations where you realize 390 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 4: that supposedly here in the liberal West we have rights, 391 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 4: we have no rights. We do not even own own 392 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 4: audio visual image. 393 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 3: That's terrifying, absolutely terrifying. 394 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: I mean the context of your book, which you mentioned earlier, 395 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: techno feudalism, and your own experience kind of bringing the 396 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: thread of these together, how do you view the future 397 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 1: that we're heading into where we see the rise of AI. 398 00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 1: We've recently had Jensen Wong, the CEO of Nvidia, on 399 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 1: a podcast talking about this. We want to get your reaction, guys. 400 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: Let's go and play the clip. 401 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:14,120 Speaker 5: This is a technology that has the potential to automate 402 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:18,080 Speaker 5: many aspects of human labor very soon, and I'm curious 403 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 5: the degree to which you feel a responsibility for making 404 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:23,840 Speaker 5: that transition go. 405 00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 6: Well, what AI will do is to make tasks that 406 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 6: we do in our job more efficient. Our job is 407 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 6: not to wrangle a spreadsheet. Our job is not to 408 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 6: type into a keyboard. 409 00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 3: Our job is. 410 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 6: Generally more meaningful than that. I'm fairly confident that AI 411 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 6: will drive productivity, revenue growth, and therefore more hiring. There's 412 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,239 Speaker 6: a belief that the world's GDP is somehow limited at 413 00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 6: one hundred trillion dollars. Well, what's likely to happen is 414 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 6: AI is going to cause that one hundred trillion dollars 415 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 6: to become two hundred trillion dollars, three hundred trillion dollars, 416 00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 6: five hundred million dollars. There's no fundamental limit to the 417 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,879 Speaker 6: size of a GDP, and so and the number of 418 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,560 Speaker 6: people in the world that is participating in this GDP 419 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,720 Speaker 6: and the hundred trillion dollars GDP is actually quite small. 420 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 6: And so what if we brought the rest of the world, 421 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 6: the rest of society, the rest of the world's population, 422 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,440 Speaker 6: empower them with AI, give them the opportunity to participate 423 00:25:23,480 --> 00:25:26,160 Speaker 6: in the GDP, and causes GDP to quintuple. 424 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 3: So you're seeing the pitch that is made there your reactions. 425 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 4: Air Well, I'm aghast how such a very smart, clearly 426 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:44,080 Speaker 4: competent businessman has such a low level of understanding of 427 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:48,159 Speaker 4: what camputalism or what I call tegni fialism is like. Now, 428 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 4: of course, look, AI technology is brilliant. I mean, think 429 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 4: about it. You know, you ask GBT to take some 430 00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,360 Speaker 4: rubbish you've written and put it in Shakespearean language, does 431 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 4: it fantastically? You know having translations and I love technology. 432 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,159 Speaker 4: The question is not is it useful? Of course it's useful. 433 00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 4: The question is who owns it and who is excluded 434 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 4: from using it? And those who own it, what did 435 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 4: you do with it? Because you see, there is a 436 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 4: profound difference between you know, a tool that helps me, 437 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:27,960 Speaker 4: as he said, do things more efficiently, take the chore 438 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 4: out of my work and leave me with my creative 439 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,920 Speaker 4: the creative aspects of my work which give me purpose 440 00:26:36,520 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: in life. That's great. But when you have machines that 441 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 4: are owned by zero points with zero zero one percent 442 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 4: of the population, that have the capacity to engage with 443 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 4: you personally on a dialogue and pretend to be your 444 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 4: servants like Alexa, Amazon's Alex or you know, Apple City 445 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 4: or the Google system or whatever one of these assistants, 446 00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 4: or the Insta card a system for that matter, and 447 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:10,280 Speaker 4: they give you the feeling that you can say, you know, 448 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:13,960 Speaker 4: switch off the lights, buy me some milk, order me 449 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,159 Speaker 4: an electric bicycle for my daughter or my son, and 450 00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 4: they do it, and it's great. Great, who doesn't like that? 451 00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,680 Speaker 4: But what is really happening is you're interfacing with what 452 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 4: I call the cloud capital of Jeff besis of this 453 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 4: zero point zero zero zero one percent. Uh. And essentially 454 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 4: that machine trains you to train it to train you better, 455 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:41,639 Speaker 4: so that you train it even better, to know you 456 00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 4: so well that it wins your trust. And once it 457 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 4: was it has won your trust, then it can direct 458 00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:51,200 Speaker 4: your choices. Then you know, you say, my coffeemaker has broken? 459 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 4: What should I buy in? Say this, and you click 460 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 4: on it, and then the coffee maker comes to you 461 00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 4: outside any market. You don't go to the shop to 462 00:27:58,880 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 4: get it. It comes and Jeff Bezos, whose Alexa has 463 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:05,880 Speaker 4: helped you, let's say, in the red of the commas, 464 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 4: get a coffee maker, gets forty percent forty percent. That 465 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,320 Speaker 4: forty percent is a rent that is taken away from 466 00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 4: the laborers that have actually worked to produce the coffee maker, 467 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,200 Speaker 4: but even from the surplus value of the capitalist that 468 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:24,560 Speaker 4: owns the coffeemaking company. So you know, when we have AI, 469 00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:29,959 Speaker 4: that is empowering further and enhancing the control that these 470 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 4: zero points zero zero one percent have over our minds, 471 00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,160 Speaker 4: over our behavior. You see, these are machines that don't 472 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 4: produce anything. They are not productive machines and or like 473 00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 4: industrial robots building cars, these are machines that determine what 474 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 4: we think. And you know, in other words, these are 475 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,000 Speaker 4: machines that the owners can use in order to extract 476 00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 4: trends which are a loss of GDB. To go back 477 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 4: to what you were saying, it is a break on growth. 478 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 4: It is a break on societal enhancement. But you know, 479 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,880 Speaker 4: these guys I either don't know any of this because 480 00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:11,920 Speaker 4: all they want is more of whatever it is that thereafter, 481 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 4: which is money, shares, whatever, and they have no idea 482 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 4: how their technology is being You do lizeed in a sense. 483 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 4: You know this is not you because you go back 484 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 4: to three centuries ago. You know James Watt, the inventor 485 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 4: of the steam engine, was neither responsible nor understood the 486 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 4: effect that you have on transforming society from feudalismical capitalism. 487 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 2: And this is core to your argument that we have 488 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 2: actually exited the capitalist system and moved into a new system, 489 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 2: which you call techno feudalism. That's why people need to 490 00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 2: read the book to fully understand the arguments that you're making. 491 00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: Here. 492 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,680 Speaker 2: I wanted to put four up on the screen, which 493 00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 2: is President Trump, the present acting President of Venezuela. President 494 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 2: Trump here making a similar case in his way, as 495 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 2: we heard that Vida ceo making you have This is 496 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,200 Speaker 2: New York Times reporters saying people are concerned AIS going 497 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 2: to take their jobs, and they will not, they will 498 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 2: be out of work. Trump says, I think just the opposite. 499 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 2: I think AI is going to be tremendous job producer. 500 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: I think we have so many jobs. My biggest problem 501 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: isn't taking the jobs. It's that we don't have enough 502 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 2: people to fill the jobs. And that's where robots come in. Now, 503 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,080 Speaker 2: you do hear other tech CEOs who will say outright 504 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 2: that their goal in AI development is to make all 505 00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,240 Speaker 2: human labor irrelevant. So some of them are saying that outright, 506 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: and I get the sense that their goal is to 507 00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 2: win some sort of final battle against workers who they 508 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: find to be pesky and annoying and difficult and diminishing 509 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,560 Speaker 2: their you know, profit margins and power in all sorts 510 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: of ways. 511 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 4: Well, what these people are lacking is the theory of 512 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 4: change of transition, because you know, ideally, ideally, I would agree. 513 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,120 Speaker 4: You know, I'm a tricky right, I mean, I spent 514 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: mon I have misspent my youth and my older age 515 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 4: watching a lot of Star Trek I love Star Trek 516 00:30:57,160 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 4: because it is the best example of liarian communism. Think 517 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 4: about nobody works because you have replicators doing all the work. 518 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 4: So you know, you order food close even spaceships of 519 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 4: replicators and machines convert energy and mass into whatever it 520 00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 4: is that you order, so there's no point in having 521 00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 4: an economy. Everything is produced for you. And you know 522 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:20,800 Speaker 4: what they do is they spend time in a spaceship 523 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,800 Speaker 4: exploring the universe, having philosophical conversations as why I'm a tracky. 524 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 4: I love that. The question is Okay, now, let's say 525 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 4: that we we we buy the hypothesis that at some 526 00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:33,840 Speaker 4: point we will have the technology to replace all labor, 527 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 4: all work, all and you know, all chores. Let's say 528 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 4: it because you know, nobody wants to replace the labor 529 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: of love that is, writing poetry or composing music, but 530 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,240 Speaker 4: you know all the chores that people would rather not do, 531 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 4: but somebody needs to do. Let's say that robots do 532 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 4: all that. Okay, yes, then we can have libertarian communist 533 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 4: start trek. The questions how do we get there? Because 534 00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:01,680 Speaker 4: you know, you saw it all masks, I forgot what 535 00:32:01,760 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 4: he calls his android. We've seen the androids are coming 536 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 4: up that are coming from very different companies from China 537 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,760 Speaker 4: and so on. Now you know these things are going 538 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 4: to cost money to buy. Not everybody will be able 539 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 4: to buy one of these machines. Some small businesses will 540 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 4: not have them, bigger businesses will have them, But even 541 00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 4: large businesses may find that it is cheaper to have 542 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: precariously employed labor human labor than machines. So then you're 543 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:35,280 Speaker 4: going to have bifurcation, yet another division of the economy 544 00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:37,479 Speaker 4: between those who use the machines to produce a lot 545 00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,000 Speaker 4: of stuff with huge profit rates and all the rest 546 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,640 Speaker 4: who are either making huge profits by continuing to exploit 547 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 4: precariously employed human labor and others who are struggling and 548 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 4: just can't make ends meet. And if, in the meantime, 549 00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 4: the zero points zero zero one percent continue to have 550 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 4: the ownership of the machines that complete and totally poison 551 00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 4: our minds and control our minds. Yeah, that is not 552 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 4: star trek. It is not libertarian liberal communism. It is 553 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 4: a version of the matrix where the vast majority of 554 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 4: the population have succumbed to the powers of the machines. 555 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,000 Speaker 4: We feed them with our own power. Remember the movie, 556 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 4: and that's a dystopia, and I'm very much afraid that 557 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: mister Trump, and he is merry men and women are 558 00:33:24,720 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 4: working towards it that particular dystopia. 559 00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 2: Johannes Fair Focus, thank you so much for your time 560 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 2: and your insights this morning. 561 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 3: I associate it well. 562 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 4: Thank you. 563 00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 3: Hi everyone, we talked too much so gambling. 564 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:36,600 Speaker 1: We're gonna kick that to Thursday, just to make sure 565 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 1: we can try and get the show out on time, 566 00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 1: and we will see you all then. 567 00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 3: Kundra points for a show. Kindra points for all of 568 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 3: you tomorrow