WEBVTT - Lessons in Fortitude from Bow and Arrow Brewing Co.'s Shyla Sheppard 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:10.800 Welcome to Made by Women, a new podcast by the 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:15.760 Seneca Women Podcast Network and I Heart Radio. At a 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:18.319 moment when businesses face some of the biggest challenges in 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:22.800 recent history, we bring you inspiring stories, practical insights, and 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.600 shared learnings to help you successfully navigate in today's environment. 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:32.159 Every Thursday, Made by Women will showcase the experiences of 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.640 legendary women, entrepreneurs, fierce up and comers, and everyday women 0:00:36.680 --> 0:00:41.080 who found success their own way. Consider this your real world. 0:00:41.159 --> 0:00:45.960 N b A designed for the new Now. I'm Kim 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:52.640 Azarelli and thanks so much for joining us today. Shila 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:55.000 Shepherd is a master of the art of the pivot, 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.320 the co founder of Bow and Arrow Brewing Company. She's 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:01.480 a Native American from North Dakota who grew up in 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:05.000 a rural community so small it had no post office 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.480 or gas station. She went on to study economics at 0:01:08.480 --> 0:01:12.480 Stanford University and work in venture capital. Her life took 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:15.840 a turn when she established her successful brewery and tap 0:01:15.920 --> 0:01:20.520 room no Albuquerque, and then came the pandemic. What do 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.840 you do when a health crisis impacts a business that 0:01:23.920 --> 0:01:28.200 heavily depends on in person customers. If you're Shyla Shepherd, 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.600 you look at the problem and see a brand new 0:01:30.640 --> 0:01:33.880 opportunity to bring your product to fans in new and 0:01:33.959 --> 0:01:38.160 different ways. Listen as Shyla talks about finding new paths, 0:01:38.520 --> 0:01:41.360 drawing strength from your roots, and learning to face the 0:01:41.400 --> 0:01:48.120 storm rather than turning away. Well, Shyla, thanks so much 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:51.440 for joining us, Thanks for having me. So could you 0:01:51.480 --> 0:01:54.320 tell our listeners a little bit about the company you started, 0:01:54.600 --> 0:01:58.160 what you do, and where you're located. Sure, um So. 0:01:58.320 --> 0:02:04.040 I founded Bowender Brewing Company UM back in two thousand thirteen, 0:02:04.080 --> 0:02:07.400 and we officially opened our doors for business in two 0:02:07.480 --> 0:02:13.280 thousand sixteen February of that year. Um So. We are 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.160 based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. We have our brewery and 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.400 on site beer hall here kind of in the heart 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:25.920 of downtown Albuquerque, and we specialize in wild sour in 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.760 Southwest inspired beers. Very cool. So I'm gonna take you 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:32.960 a way back. So where did you grow up? I 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:35.960 grew up in western North Dakota on the Fort berth 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:39.120 Old Reservation. And how long were you in North Dakota 0:02:39.200 --> 0:02:42.440 for until I left for college? So my whole life 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:45.520 and my whole family is still there. So that's that's 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:49.000 my first home. And New Mexico is kind of my 0:02:49.000 --> 0:02:52.160 my second And so you left North Dakota and you 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.639 I understand you went to Stanford. Yeah, I went to 0:02:54.720 --> 0:02:57.240 undergrad there. And how did you decide to go to Stanford? 0:02:57.280 --> 0:03:02.320 And was entrepreneurship always in your in your plans? So? Um? 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:05.400 So I grew up in a very small rural community. 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:08.720 I mean North Dakota's general is pretty rural. Um. But 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:11.840 the community that I grew up in is called Twin 0:03:11.919 --> 0:03:15.840 Buttes and um, it's about two hundred and it was 0:03:15.919 --> 0:03:18.680 less than two hundred and fifty people. Um. And this 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.839 is including people who live like down gravel roads and 0:03:22.160 --> 0:03:24.560 you know, out in the country so to speak. Um. 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:28.080 And we didn't have a post office or a gas 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:32.240 station or anything um like that. So, and there wasn't 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:37.560 a lot of business or enterprise at all in our community. 0:03:37.640 --> 0:03:39.760 So we would travel to the border town for things 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:43.560 like groceries and gas and a check the mail. Um. 0:03:43.640 --> 0:03:47.760 And I guess having that experience, UM and seeing kind 0:03:47.800 --> 0:03:51.320 of unsuccessful attempts by you know, our our tribe at 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:56.000 sort of a government run business. UM. I don't know, 0:03:56.120 --> 0:03:59.600 I it really stuck with me and I just really 0:04:00.200 --> 0:04:03.760 wanted to understand why there was such a lack of 0:04:04.560 --> 0:04:07.760 you know, businesses there and examples of it. So when 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:12.400 I left to Stanford, UM I was found myself in 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.760 the heart of Silicon Valley, and I was really intrigued 0:04:14.840 --> 0:04:18.920 with you know what that was. UM. So I took 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:23.560 some classes specifically on venture capital and started getting more 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.760 familiar with what it was and how it could be 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.960 UM a powerful source, you know, powerful economic engine to 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.680 speed growth of businesses. UM. So it kind of just 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:39.520 went back to, like, you know, understanding what those challenges were, 0:04:39.680 --> 0:04:43.960 and you know, realizing that UM a lot of reservations, 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:47.679 not just my own. There's there's a lack of resources. 0:04:48.120 --> 0:04:52.520 UM there's challenges in terms of access to capital, and 0:04:53.000 --> 0:04:56.400 you know, mentors, people who've been there, done that. Actually, 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.679 my first job out of college was also in venture capital, 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:01.600 and I was also interested in trying to understand how 0:05:01.640 --> 0:05:05.039 small businesses in particular worked and how they got capitalized. 0:05:05.080 --> 0:05:06.599 But I didn't stick with it as long as you did. 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.960 So what kind of what kind of companies did you 0:05:09.000 --> 0:05:12.640 cover in your VC days? I entered the industry here 0:05:12.640 --> 0:05:18.320 in Albuquerque, so UM I joined a group I learned 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:22.160 about this sort of subset of venture capital. It's has 0:05:22.200 --> 0:05:24.400 many names. You know. Back in the day, I think 0:05:24.400 --> 0:05:29.000 it was called like Community Development Venture Capital UM, and 0:05:29.040 --> 0:05:33.080 now it's known as like social impact investing. So the 0:05:33.080 --> 0:05:37.159 the organization I joined was just getting off the ground, 0:05:37.600 --> 0:05:41.919 New Mexico Community Capital, which was this community development financial 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:46.000 institution focused on venture capital. So UM I joined the 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:50.880 founding team. UM did all sorts of things due diligence 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:55.120 on companies, deal sourcing, and our initial fund was a 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.120 New Mexico centric fund, so geographically focused on the state 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:02.560 of New Mexico. UM. So we were kind of we 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:06.440 took a generalist approach but basically focused on businesses that 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:11.080 we're meeting basic needs. So UM we invested in clean 0:06:11.120 --> 0:06:16.240 water technology, green building products, UM. Some focused on agricultural 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:20.040 sector safety and security. So over the course of eight 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:22.440 and a half years, I had, you know, just an 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:27.080 amazing UM education kind of across the whole spectrum of 0:06:27.480 --> 0:06:30.800 the space. So you're in the VC world. You, as 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.320 you said, had a great education, You're you're active and 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:35.880 all a bunch of different kinds of companies, and then 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.000 you decide that you want to start your own brewery. 0:06:38.040 --> 0:06:40.560 How does that happen? Well, it went back, you know, 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:43.760 growing up where I came from. I was fortunate not 0:06:43.800 --> 0:06:47.159 to have a family or or a mom that was 0:06:47.240 --> 0:06:50.120 like pushing me in any one direction. But she was 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.280 just very supportive of, you know, whatever it was I 0:06:53.320 --> 0:06:58.880 wanted to do UM, and so that was really helpful. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.040 But you know, I guess looking back, I still felt 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.680 sort of an obligation to do something that was quote 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:07.640 unquote very like professional and you know, and so you know, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.280 and I did that. I enjoyed it. I learned a 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.760 lot UM, but I did know that I wanted to 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:17.400 start something from the ground up, and I didn't know 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.680 exactly what it would be UM, and honestly didn't like 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:25.120 connect the like passion interest I had in craft beer 0:07:25.240 --> 0:07:28.760 that started back in college to that ultimately, so it 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:32.480 took some time to figure that out UM. And then 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:36.800 also in in some of the deals we were doing 0:07:36.920 --> 0:07:41.200 and interested in doing UM with the fund, I definitely 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.520 got sort of tuned into the slow food movement, and 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:48.040 I eventually was kind of seeing that intersection of you know, 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:52.920 locally produced craft beer UM, the connections that we as 0:07:52.960 --> 0:07:57.080 breweries can have with the local agricultural community as well, 0:07:57.120 --> 0:07:59.720 and how we can support each other. Um. So it 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.840 all sort of started to come together in my mind. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:06.720 And then also, um, just paying attention to the regulatory 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:10.080 environment alcohol can be really like weird and all over 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:13.720 the place as far as laws and restrictions from city 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.720 to city, state to state. UM. And I was recognizing 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:19.280 that here in New Mexico at the time, you know, 0:08:19.320 --> 0:08:23.840 it was pretty craft beer friendly. Um. You could have 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:28.080 multiple locations where you could serve, you know, your product, 0:08:28.160 --> 0:08:32.240 and have kind of a central production facility. UM. So 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.320 I really was drawn to that because I enjoy curating 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:40.160 a space and an experience around the product. Um. So 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:43.160 all of that made a lot of sense um to me. 0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.960 But I got my introduction to craft beer and Paulo 0:08:46.960 --> 0:08:50.360 alto Um at the time, there's a Gordon Biersch, and 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.160 that's where I had my first half advice and and 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.360 sort of just got drawn in, and my curiosity kind 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:57.360 of got the better of me and just kind of 0:08:57.840 --> 0:09:00.880 kept digging deeper and deeper. Um and all the while 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:05.600 you know, pursuing my professional career. UM. Yeah. And then 0:09:05.600 --> 0:09:09.439 back in probably two thousand twelve is when I was 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:13.760 like realizing we were at a point in our funds life. 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:17.280 You know, limited partnership is usually ten years cycles, and 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.760 so we were having discussions of course on fund too 0:09:20.800 --> 0:09:23.440 and what that would look like. And given I was 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:27.160 involved in some of these conversations with limited partners, I 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:30.320 just you know, my heart wasn't in it anymore, and 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.280 I was ready to move on and not commit to 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:37.480 another fund right right, So it kind of it pushed 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:40.440 me to then take the leap um and go out 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:42.640 on my own. I was just gonna ask you something 0:09:42.640 --> 0:09:44.200 related to that, which is a lot of people have 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.560 ideas UM, and they even might have a passion, but 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:50.480 it's really hard to make that leap. Was it hard 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:52.400 for you to do that? And what were the early 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:56.480 years like in starting this business. It was scary because I, 0:09:56.760 --> 0:10:01.679 you know, I really enjoyed what I did UM, and 0:10:01.760 --> 0:10:05.800 it was you know, I had the security of my paycheck, 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:10.880 my compensation, and so it was definitely scary to start 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:14.600 something from the ground up and walking away from that. 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:18.320 But again, I just felt like it's now or never, 0:10:18.840 --> 0:10:22.880 and you know, the landscape changes very quickly, and so 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.480 I just felt like the time was of the essence 0:10:25.520 --> 0:10:30.920 and we needed to just focus of my time on it. So, yeah, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.560 it was definitely scary, but I had, you know, the 0:10:33.640 --> 0:10:36.920 support that the moral support of of my partner and 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:40.880 now wife, UM, and she was working her way through 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.400 med school in residency and I think at the time 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.880 she had just finished residency, so she was kind of 0:10:47.920 --> 0:10:51.560 on her own track, and so I felt like we 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:55.680 could take on the financial risk of me quitting my 0:10:55.800 --> 0:10:59.840 job to pursue this. So it was thoughtful and strategic 0:11:00.040 --> 0:11:02.640 about like, you know, the finance side of it is 0:11:02.640 --> 0:11:06.200 a big part for people and can be the gating factor, 0:11:06.600 --> 0:11:11.400 you know. But I dove in and uh and things 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.320 worked out. So yeah. Well, I mean in all the 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:16.839 people that I've spoken to, and of course in my 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.119 own experience was of course always ups and downs, and 0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.480 and the struggle of entrepreneurship is real. I mean, what 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:25.720 do you what do you rely on in those difficult moments. Well, 0:11:25.760 --> 0:11:28.560 I was fortunate to grow up, you know, with a 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:32.880 family that kind of grounded me and kind of my 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.520 my grandma in particular, my mom's mom. She's still you know, 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:42.480 such a strong, um tenacious figure and has always been 0:11:42.520 --> 0:11:45.719 an inspiration to me. Um. She's she always says, like, 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:47.720 where there's a will, there's a way, and I've seen 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:51.080 her exercise that, you know, time and time again. So 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.800 I'm like, so that I feel like, and I'm her granddaughter, 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.400 so I need to, you know, take strength from that, 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.400 and so I do. And there's just many examples, I mean, 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:07.160 especially just being a native person, seeing the resilience that 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:12.280 our people have had to UM exercise, you know, throughout 0:12:12.320 --> 0:12:13.840 the year. So I mean, I take a lot of 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.920 strengthen that. So you're you're building your business. You took 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:21.000 the leap and and it became a success. Tell us 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:24.600 more about the nuts and bolts of the business. Yeah, 0:12:24.679 --> 0:12:28.960 so it's the way we got started is really the 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:33.200 bread and butter of our revenue was through the beer hall, 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.120 so people coming in and buying beer by the glass 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:40.240 or filling growlers. UM. And I was actually in the 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:44.800 process of opening our first off site location in the 0:12:44.800 --> 0:12:51.520 Four Corners area UM when COVID hit, So that that 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:54.880 led to a huge pivot for us. UM. So that 0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:58.080 was that was the model, and just over the last 0:12:58.120 --> 0:13:02.400 couple of months, UM, I put the Four Corners tap 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.400 room on pause. So that's still I'm still figuring out, 0:13:06.440 --> 0:13:09.800 you know, how and when that happens. UM. The current 0:13:10.640 --> 0:13:16.400 public Health order restrictions are allowing for only patio sales, 0:13:16.920 --> 0:13:22.080 and that location has no patio. So yeah, so it's 0:13:22.160 --> 0:13:27.000 it's it's definitely this time has you forced me to 0:13:28.520 --> 0:13:32.880 not let uncertainty paralyze my decision making. But it's I 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.160 really try to focus on what can I control, you know, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.480 what can I do? Um So, over the course of 0:13:39.520 --> 0:13:42.160 the last couple of months, I've you know, folks re 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:47.040 kind of focused our efforts on purchasing a canning line 0:13:47.120 --> 0:13:51.240 so we're able to get more product into customers hands, 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.760 not just through our locations, but we're in you know, 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:57.400 the three Whole Foods here in New Mexico and the 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:01.000 Total Wine and some of the more popular bottle shops 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:06.120 as well. Um So that's been a huge pivot for us, 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.560 uh during this time, and I'm just having to, you know, 0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.520 think about things I didn't have to before. Um But 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:14.520 I'm like, these are the challenges I want to have. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:17.920 If Whole Foods wants to buy out most of our batch, well, 0:14:17.960 --> 0:14:19.960 you know, we need to figure out how to how 0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:22.880 to ration it and make it stretch and figure out 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:25.880 how to increase our production. Wow, you actually went out 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.960 and bought a canning operation. We did and that's been 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:33.120 and that's you know, that was kind of a wild ride. 0:14:33.160 --> 0:14:38.680 I had lined up a used canning line here UM locally, 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.760 and unexpectedly that deal fell apart after you know, we 0:14:43.800 --> 0:14:46.440 had made a commitment. So that was really stressful. So 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.120 suddenly it's like, well, we're buying a new canning line 0:14:49.200 --> 0:14:52.280 and kind of through that process and you know, this 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:56.120 decision is one that usually takes like a year or 0:14:56.200 --> 0:15:01.400 so of planning because there's so many manifest actures these days. 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:03.480 So we just dug in and did a lot of 0:15:03.520 --> 0:15:06.560 due diligence, talked to a lot of people, visited some 0:15:06.640 --> 0:15:11.280 other UM breweries and one sidary in town to see, 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:13.240 you know, what they were doing, what they liked about 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:18.479 their systems UM, and then just moved on it. Thankfully. 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:22.640 UM we've done We've only done like four canning runs 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:25.880 so far. We had my goal was to have our 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:30.160 first cans roll out by July one UM. So we 0:15:30.400 --> 0:15:32.920 met that deadline and we were able to make the 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.160 huge Fourth of July weekend UM, which is a big 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:42.280 weekend for beer sales. Yeah. So so it's that's been 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:44.960 kind of a roller coaster, but it's it's kind of 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.880 funny just in sitting down to think about and reflect, 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.160 you know, it's kind of it's just a lot of 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:52.760 just looking like, Okay, we passed, you know, we got 0:15:52.800 --> 0:15:55.800 over that obstacle, and it's just like keep charging forwards. 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:59.120 So it's it's interesting to stop and kind of reflect 0:15:59.160 --> 0:16:01.480 on the bump us in the road because I'm not 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.240 one to focus on them, so I have to really 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:07.360 like think about it in a deliberate way. Do you 0:16:07.440 --> 0:16:10.840 find that, you know, over time, uh, you know, hitting 0:16:10.840 --> 0:16:12.880 at these different bumps along the way, you kind of 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:16.240 have a mental resilience where it doesn't seem as bumpy 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:19.880 over time once you've gone through a few of them. Absolutely. Yeah, 0:16:19.880 --> 0:16:22.440 it's like, why why get worked up about something, Let's 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:27.480 just focus on the solution and keep moving forward. Um My, 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.680 one of my grandpa's raised buffalo and as kids, this 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:34.880 is another one of those lessons that has really stuck 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.520 with me. But he would take us out on the 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.120 prairie and we'd all be like standing in the back 0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:42.440 of the truck and he'd be out with the buffalo 0:16:42.560 --> 0:16:44.800 and he would talk to us and tell us about 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:47.840 He's like, you see, how thick you know the buffaloes 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.480 fur is on, you know, the front of their body. 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:53.720 And did you know that in the fiercest blizzard and storms, 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:57.360 they turn and they face the storm. And so he 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.320 taught us that in life you're gonna face challenge nges. 0:17:00.440 --> 0:17:03.320 But he said, be like the buffalo. You don't run 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:05.600 away from it. You don't turn away from it. You 0:17:05.640 --> 0:17:08.640 face it. And so that's something also that i've It 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:10.840 makes a lot of sense now and I really try 0:17:10.880 --> 0:17:14.439 to emulate that. And it's such good advice. You know, 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:17.639 you have this background and venture capital, it's probably served 0:17:17.640 --> 0:17:20.000 you very well. And when you're thinking about expansion and 0:17:20.040 --> 0:17:22.879 how to buy a canning operation or how to really 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:25.359 access capital in your own business. Do you have advice 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:29.080 to other entrepreneurs about accessing capital? I would say, like 0:17:29.160 --> 0:17:31.280 one of the biggest ones is, you know, there's lots 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:35.120 of different flavors of capital, lots of different sources. I 0:17:35.160 --> 0:17:40.159 think having a sense for what ultimately you want to 0:17:40.200 --> 0:17:42.240 do with the business, because you know, as a former 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:45.080 venture capitalists, if if we were looking at a company, 0:17:45.119 --> 0:17:49.200 there has to be some sort of like exit strategy, right, 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.480 what does that look like? And you know the expectations 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:55.280 of a VC for returns are much higher. So if 0:17:55.880 --> 0:17:58.960 if you're pursuing that's flavor of capital, you know you 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.560 should have a and sort of growth plans. So I 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:07.000 think sometimes people get sort of caught up into, you know, 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:12.560 the idea of of raising and securing that sort of capital, 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:14.800 but it's not always a good fit. So I think 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.159 really understanding what your goals are as a business is 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.040 really important as you think about the types of capital, 0:18:21.080 --> 0:18:24.479 whether it's whether it's an s B, a loan, you know, 0:18:24.840 --> 0:18:29.000 or institutional money or friends and family. So just sort 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:31.800 of managing and understanding, like what are your goals for 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:34.400 your business, does that align with the type of capital 0:18:34.480 --> 0:18:38.560 that you're wanting to raise. That's great advice because I 0:18:38.560 --> 0:18:40.600 think you're so right. There's so many people and because 0:18:40.720 --> 0:18:44.520 venture capital and kind of these unicorn type businesses have 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.840 been in oppress so much. I think people think if 0:18:46.840 --> 0:18:49.439 they need capital, they think they need venture capital. And 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:51.280 it's such a good point that you make that people 0:18:51.320 --> 0:18:53.639 need to understand their long term goals because PC is 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:57.760 a very specific kind of capital. If there is specific expectations. Yes, 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:00.600 So is there anything that you wish someone told you 0:19:00.800 --> 0:19:02.680 about running your business that you wish you had known 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.520 before you started. I can't remember who it was, UM, 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:09.400 but it was you know, some one of the entrepreneurs 0:19:09.400 --> 0:19:11.960 I've worked with in the past. You know. The advice 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:15.440 was like, just be comfortable that you can't know everything. 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.520 You can't have all the answers, but you know, be 0:19:19.720 --> 0:19:22.960 good at seeking out you know, the resources and sources, 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:25.240 and don't be afraid to reach out to people to 0:19:25.600 --> 0:19:29.280 you know, find answers. So I think just having some 0:19:29.320 --> 0:19:33.240 comfort and knowing it's okay, I can't know everything. I 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:37.120 you know, this is new territory and starting something from 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:41.359 scratch comes with so many moving parts, and especially in 0:19:41.600 --> 0:19:45.560 you know, highly regulated industry like alcohol, you know, and 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.760 I think being okay with that was was really important 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:53.600 and sort of pushing pushing forward. UM. I also think 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.440 in the early days what really helped me was being organized. 0:19:58.080 --> 0:20:01.480 I had, you know, I'm a voracious checklister. I still am, 0:20:02.359 --> 0:20:05.480 and I have all of my little mole skin notebooks 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:09.280 UM from early days, which is actually really fun to 0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:13.080 look back at and sort of page through. It's like incorporate, 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:16.639 you know, or decide on a legal structure, you know, 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.800 get a tax i D or your FBI N and 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.040 it's interesting to look back at that, but also in 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:25.960 the moment, there are, like I said, so many moving 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.440 parts that it really helps to make it feel more 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.080 manageable if you have like a game plan. So I've had, 0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:35.520 you know, multiple spreadsheets where they're literally called the game 0:20:35.520 --> 0:20:38.439 plan or might to do list, and one might be 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:43.879 related to corporate decisions or you know, financial um. But 0:20:44.000 --> 0:20:46.920 at least I sort of put it down and then 0:20:46.960 --> 0:20:49.760 it seems it just seems a lot more manageable. And 0:20:49.920 --> 0:20:52.440 there are times when you can, you know, get distracted, 0:20:52.480 --> 0:20:55.639 but if you have your game plan, your list in 0:20:55.680 --> 0:20:58.639 front of you, it can really help you remain focused. 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:01.960 That's such great advice. Again, great advice. I was thinking 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.680 when you were talking earlier about being comfortable with the 0:21:04.760 --> 0:21:07.040 unknown and then combining that with what your grandfather told 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:09.520 you about facing challenges head on, I feel like that's 0:21:09.520 --> 0:21:12.080 a really powerful combination. And then if you add the 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:14.080 checklist to it, I could see how this could be 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.160 a very successful company. Yeah, and I was I felt 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:20.639 like so validated when I read a tool gowandhi's a 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:24.040 checklist manifesto. I'm like yes, and so yes, this is 0:21:24.119 --> 0:21:26.920 this makes so much sense to me. So I know 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:29.320 that the business that you're in doesn't have a lot 0:21:29.320 --> 0:21:32.440 of women. Actually, are you finding that you are kind 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:34.200 of one of those pioneers and is there a community 0:21:34.240 --> 0:21:36.320 of women in the brewery business that you can relate 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.280 to or trade ideas with. I think we're getting there. 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.439 I mean there's big discussions I mean, especially just in 0:21:42.640 --> 0:21:45.840 across in the world right now about sort of racial 0:21:46.320 --> 0:21:51.240 like inequities and inequalities, and I think what's and there's 0:21:51.280 --> 0:21:55.119 been a conversation also just within the craft beer industry 0:21:55.200 --> 0:22:01.399 recently that's starting to take place. The Brewers Associateation, which 0:22:01.440 --> 0:22:06.840 is for the national UM advocacy advocacy organization for brewers 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:10.920 here UM in the United States, they created a position 0:22:11.280 --> 0:22:16.239 UM the Diversity Ambassador, to kind of have some of 0:22:16.280 --> 0:22:20.240 these and facilitate some of these difficult conversations about, you know, 0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:25.720 questions around why aren't there more people of color, more 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:31.000 women UM. So that's happening right now, and I at 0:22:31.000 --> 0:22:34.200 a national conference stood in line to talk with one 0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:37.000 of the presenters who who is in that role the 0:22:37.080 --> 0:22:42.239 brus Associations UM Diversity Ambassador, and so I've connected with 0:22:42.280 --> 0:22:44.959 her and she continues to do a lot of that 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:48.399 work and has connected me with other people. So I 0:22:48.400 --> 0:22:50.280 think the more you reach out to folks, you know, 0:22:50.400 --> 0:22:54.000 just build that network and create awareness that you know, hey, 0:22:54.040 --> 0:22:56.840 I'm in the industry and here's what I'm doing and 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:00.520 being curious about you know, learning what other women and 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:04.600 people of color are doing is a start. UM. So 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.840 that's something you know, that's important to me. But also 0:23:08.000 --> 0:23:10.000 just at the end of the day, it's like, hey, 0:23:10.040 --> 0:23:12.280 I'm a small business owner and I face the same 0:23:12.359 --> 0:23:16.400 challenges that other you know, non people of color are facing, 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:20.199 and you know, it's important that you don't put the 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:22.679 expectation on yourself that you have to save the world. 0:23:23.040 --> 0:23:25.520 And I feel like sometimes as a woman of color, 0:23:25.520 --> 0:23:28.640 a Native American, they you know, there's some expectation that 0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:31.960 you are, you have all of these other things that 0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:35.119 you're expected to accomplish. Some of it I feel is 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.480 a little unfair because it's a young company that I'm 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:42.640 running into, lots of challenges, there's COVID, lots of things 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:45.280 going on, and so it's like, you know, seeing more 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:48.320 people like myself in the industry is something that I 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:53.359