1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:12,680 Speaker 1: Get in with Technology Textuff from dot Com. Hey there, 2 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,920 Speaker 1: and welcome to text Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland, and today 3 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: in the studio once again, I am joined by my 4 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 1: Horrid Thinking co host, Joe mcclarmick. Joe Lokan, Hi, everybody, 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 1: How you doing? I am just doing fantastic. My brain 6 00:00:27,120 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: is full of bats and spirits from beyond. Well, it's 7 00:00:30,600 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: it's good that that happened this week, since we are 8 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:38,400 Speaker 1: celebrating Halloween this week, and as part of our Halloween celebration, 9 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: Joe had come up with a suggestion for an episode 10 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:42,680 Speaker 1: of tech Stuff. I said, Joe, what do you want 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 1: to cover? And and you came up with a topic 12 00:00:45,440 --> 00:00:50,559 Speaker 1: pretty quickly, like spookily quickly. I wanted to talk about 13 00:00:50,600 --> 00:00:53,040 Speaker 1: this for a while. In fact, I've been thinking, next 14 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: time I go on tech Stuff, I wanted to talk 15 00:00:55,160 --> 00:01:01,120 Speaker 1: about electronic voice phenomena, right, e v P? E v P? Yeah, 16 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: what is that? Well, first of all, for those of 17 00:01:04,440 --> 00:01:07,840 Speaker 1: you who are long time listeners of tech Stuff, you 18 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: might think that sounds a little familiar, and that's because 19 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:14,280 Speaker 1: we touched on e v P. Chris Pallette and I 20 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:18,039 Speaker 1: did back in an episode recorded way back in February two, 21 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 1: thou ten called ghost Hunting Technology, and in that episode, 22 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: I opened up by saying, before we get into this, 23 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: I gotta let you guys know I'm a skeptic. Well, 24 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,680 Speaker 1: you'll be amazed to know that in the four years 25 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 1: since I recorded that episode, you have become a medium. No, 26 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,600 Speaker 1: I'm still a skeptic. Okay, well I am a skeptic too. 27 00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:41,720 Speaker 1: I I don't suggest the topic of electronic voice phenomenon 28 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: because I believe that there's something to this, But I 29 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: suggested because I believe it's fascinating. It is fascinating, and 30 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: it's also it's not just something that is uh very 31 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 1: popular topic on various Internet forums as well as YouTube videos. 32 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: It's also something that features heavily into ghost movies. Right, 33 00:02:02,200 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: There's there's always that scene in a ghost film where 34 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: someone is going back over recording and hearing things that 35 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 1: were not heard during the initial investigation. Yeah, but wait, 36 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: let's back up, because some people might not be familiar 37 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: with this term. Well, why don't you paint a picture 38 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: with your words, Joe? Okay, Yeah, what are we actually 39 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 1: talking about when we say the words electronic voice phenomenon. 40 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 1: Here's one scenario you walk into a graveyard on a 41 00:02:30,240 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: cool autumn evening with your portable audio recording system as 42 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: I do, which makes it a little bit less romantic, 43 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: But there you go. Your idea of what a romantic 44 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: evening is. Quick walk through the local graveyard tells me 45 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: more about you than I was prepared for. But pray continue. 46 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 1: I take after the tradition of Dr Septimus Pretorious in this. 47 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: If that's I enjoy a midnight snack in a crypt okay, 48 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: and well you know I can get a little Victorian 49 00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: every now and then. Let's let's continue on with your scenario. Okay, 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: So you're bringing along some kind of audio recording system. 51 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: This could be a digital audio recorder or just an 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,160 Speaker 1: old cassette tape deck with a microphone, or even the 53 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 1: built in mic on your video camera. And you placed 54 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: the audio recording device near the grave of a famous 55 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 1: murderer or a Civil war general, or a reputed witch, 56 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: or maybe a reputed Civil War general witch who murdered people. 57 00:03:22,880 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 1: That would be a really cool grave to see. Well, 58 00:03:25,520 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, I just need to go to Oakland Cemetery. 59 00:03:27,960 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: There are some crazy graves in Atlanta. There are also 60 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: the Decatur cemetery is very cool anyway, So you set 61 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: up the device, you press record, and you leave it alone. 62 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: Or you could record while you ask questions, an attempt 63 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: to go to spirit into speaking, So you could sit 64 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: there and just say, how did you die? Do you 65 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 1: have anything to say? What's in your famous banana pudding recipe? 66 00:03:53,880 --> 00:03:58,640 Speaker 1: They'll never tell The answer is I have banana newt 67 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: And then later, when you come home, you play back 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: the audio and lo and behold in the quiet moments 69 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,240 Speaker 1: between your questions, or sort of just floating ambiently throughout 70 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 1: the cemetery air while you're recording, our little rumblings of 71 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 1: static and bumps and creeks and mysterious tones, and they 72 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: all seem to form words, maybe even words directly answering 73 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:29,839 Speaker 1: your questions. So that is electronic voice phenomenon. It's the 74 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: discovery of some sort of voice, something with purpose, not 75 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,280 Speaker 1: just random noise that is, at least in theory, trying 76 00:04:40,320 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: to communicate with someone. Sure, And that's not the only 77 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: way you could discover an electronic voice. So you don't 78 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,000 Speaker 1: just have to record in a graveyard. You could record 79 00:04:51,040 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: anywhere you think there might be something trying to communicate 80 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: with you, or sometimes people record radio transmissions. They say, oh, 81 00:04:58,800 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: I'm listening to you know, my radio, my HAM radio, 82 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: or even just my FM receiver, and and here's what 83 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: I caught in the static and in some frequency band 84 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,599 Speaker 1: that's supposedly not occupied. Uh well, well, have more to 85 00:05:12,640 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: say about that later in the episoite. Right, So, what 86 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,760 Speaker 1: do e v P enthusiasts typically seem to believe is 87 00:05:19,839 --> 00:05:22,720 Speaker 1: going on here? Well, the most common claim I've seen 88 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: is pretty straightforwardly what you'd expect. It's that there were spirits. 89 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: They're attempting to communicate from the other side of the 90 00:05:29,680 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: wall between life and death, beyond the veil, as it's 91 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:35,480 Speaker 1: often referred to. There you go. And so the web 92 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: and YouTube have actually made it a lot easier to 93 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 1: experience this for yourself. So they're just a ton of 94 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: YouTube videos, their whole channels devoted to cataloging supposed e 95 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 1: v P and I really recommend going and listening to 96 00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: a few. If you're at a computer right now, you 97 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: can just pause for a minute and go watch one 98 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:54,920 Speaker 1: of these or something. And for those of you really 99 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:58,000 Speaker 1: curious about this phenomenon, we are going to include some 100 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,919 Speaker 1: examples of the sort of things that you would normally 101 00:06:01,960 --> 00:06:05,160 Speaker 1: be scouring if you were trying to find this. This 102 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:08,560 Speaker 1: meaning we are not necessarily going to be inserting messages. 103 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:11,840 Speaker 1: But we're not necessarily not going to be inserting messages 104 00:06:12,080 --> 00:06:14,599 Speaker 1: really love. That's up to our audio producer NL Okay, 105 00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,480 Speaker 1: so that'll come up when it comes up. The question 106 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:21,000 Speaker 1: I guess for today is when you when you seem 107 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: to hear words being formed in these strange audio anomalies, 108 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 1: is it really a transmission from beyond the grave? Are 109 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:33,080 Speaker 1: angels and ghosts and other disembodied beings communicating to us 110 00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: by leaving anomalies on our audio recording equipment? Or is 111 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,039 Speaker 1: something else going on? Now? Just I mean not that 112 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm a Mr. Spoiler, but my own personal view is 113 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,400 Speaker 1: the second option that there's something else going on. Well 114 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: mine too, But I think we should explain why. Yeah, yeah, 115 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: And part of it would be, you know, a little 116 00:06:51,480 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: walk down memory lane to look at some of the 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,919 Speaker 1: developments of what led to the E v P craze 118 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: in the first place. Right, Well, I can imagine that 119 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:05,839 Speaker 1: when audio equipment was new, you know, the ability to 120 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:09,000 Speaker 1: record audio and play it back, This must have been 121 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:11,400 Speaker 1: kind of a strange world. For people, I mean, they've 122 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 1: never had anything like that before. Like once a sound 123 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:18,160 Speaker 1: was ephemeral before. Sure, once it happened, it was gone. 124 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,400 Speaker 1: It was like a meal or something. You know. You 125 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: could try to imitate it by going back a second time, 126 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: but you couldn't perfectly capture it. It was like going 127 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 1: to see a stage production. Right, You're going to see 128 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,640 Speaker 1: a stage production, and no matter how well rehearsed that 129 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,600 Speaker 1: production is, no two performances are going to be identical, 130 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:39,680 Speaker 1: and so the moment that you experience of watching a 131 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: stage production is a unique moment. By definition, It's never 132 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,440 Speaker 1: going to be exactly the same way again, which is 133 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why I love theater so much. 134 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: The same sort of thing was that, until the invention 135 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: of devices that could actually record sound to a medium 136 00:07:55,560 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: so it could be played back later, every sound was 137 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,160 Speaker 1: like that. It was You heard it that one time 138 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: and that's it. Yeah. So what it suggests to me 139 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,960 Speaker 1: is that this very well could have been a creepy 140 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: phenomenon to people. We grew up with it. I mean, 141 00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: we're used to it, But I mean, might it back 142 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: then have been inherently kind of spooky? Yeah, it certainly could. 143 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:19,400 Speaker 1: Have been, and in fact it led people to ask 144 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: interesting questions that to us may seem quaint, you know, 145 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:25,600 Speaker 1: since we have the benefit of hindsight, but at the 146 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: time you could really understand. You know, you're talking about 147 00:08:29,080 --> 00:08:33,080 Speaker 1: taking something that was viewed as non permanent and making 148 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,520 Speaker 1: it permanent. This is this is almost a kind of 149 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 1: magic when it first happens, right, I can see the 150 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,680 Speaker 1: magical approach to it. Yeah, like Mr Edison, am I 151 00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: going to hear a ghost talking on this wax phonograph? 152 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,600 Speaker 1: And someone in fact asked him that very question, essentially 153 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: saying did he think it would be possible to ever 154 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: invent something that would be capable of contacting the dead? 155 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: And his response was, it is possible to construct an 156 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: apparatus which will be so del k that if there 157 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: are personalities in another existence or sphere who wished to 158 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 1: get in touch with us in this existence or sphere, 159 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 1: this apparatus will at least give them a better opportunity 160 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 1: to express themselves than the tilting tables and wraps and 161 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: Uiji boards and mediums and other crude methods now purported 162 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: to be the only means of communication. So I thought 163 00:09:24,240 --> 00:09:27,400 Speaker 1: the plural of medium was media. Well not for not 164 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:29,880 Speaker 1: for the these kind of mediums. Did you hear about 165 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 1: the tiny criminal psychic who escaped prison? She was a 166 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,360 Speaker 1: small medium at large. That's great, thank you. Uh now 167 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 1: that we I just had like fifty people and subscribe 168 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: to my podcast. But that's okay. I I promised it's 169 00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 1: the last time I'm gonna make a terrible joke like 170 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,240 Speaker 1: that for this episode. Um, I can't make any grand promises. 171 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's interesting that he was. He was 172 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 1: very clear, clearly stating that if such a thing does exist, 173 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 1: then there's no reason and why this wouldn't give them 174 00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: another opportunity. That makes perfect sense. Sure, well, I mean 175 00:10:05,720 --> 00:10:09,839 Speaker 1: I can see it too, Like, for example, if people 176 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: claim to hear ghost voices with their ears, I mean, 177 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: what's going on there is that there has to be 178 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: an actual sound that's exciting the Well maybe, I mean 179 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,080 Speaker 1: it could be that they're imagining the sound, but I 180 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 1: stipulated if people are actually hearing, of course, then again 181 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: what is actually hearing? Well, okay, now we're getting into 182 00:10:31,040 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 1: too many questions about perception versus reality. But if you 183 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: have a recording instrument there you can at least find 184 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: out if there was in fact a phenomenon that could 185 00:10:39,920 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: be perceived as opposed to one that was imagined to 186 00:10:44,080 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: be perceived in the head of the person who claims it. So, 187 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: in other words, if I say, I keep hearing this 188 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,440 Speaker 1: low moaning voice in my house, and I set up 189 00:10:53,480 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 1: a recording device and I tell people I just heard it, 190 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: and you listen back and there's nothing on the recording, 191 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,200 Speaker 1: and that might suggest that the problem could be in 192 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 1: my head, not outside of my head. And of course, 193 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 1: if spirits could speak from beyond the grave, something like 194 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 1: this might in theory be useful. For example, take the 195 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: Houdini example. You know, before Harry Houdini died. He the 196 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: story goes that he and his wife set up a 197 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 1: system where he gave her a secret message and nobody 198 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 1: else knew the message, and he said, look, if I can, 199 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 1: if it's possible for me to return from beyond the 200 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: grave and let you know that there is an afterlife, 201 00:11:32,200 --> 00:11:34,240 Speaker 1: I'll come back and tell you the secret message, and 202 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: that way you'll know it's really me. Uh. And so 203 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,200 Speaker 1: I don't think that she ever claimed that happened, but 204 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:43,480 Speaker 1: I think they did every Halloween. Yeah, But if she 205 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,599 Speaker 1: set up a recording device and could even if you 206 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: couldn't hear normally, she might be able to hear through 207 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:52,640 Speaker 1: some kind of anomaly in the audio the secret message. 208 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: If it was the message, well, okay, that'd be good evidence. 209 00:11:56,280 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 1: But no such thing had happened. Now to continue on 210 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: our timeline of e v P, because of course, Edison 211 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 1: just said that the devices he was making could potentially 212 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 1: be used for such a purpose if in fact any 213 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 1: phenomena existed, right, So, uh, he was not coming out 214 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 1: and saying there are ghosts. He was just saying that, well, 215 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: if ghosts exists, then there's no reason why I can't 216 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:24,160 Speaker 1: record them. Um, well, you have a man by the 217 00:12:24,240 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: name of Friedrich Jorgenson who publishes a book titled Voices 218 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:35,439 Speaker 1: from Space and in the late Sounds. In the late fifties, 219 00:12:35,920 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: he started recording sounds by setting up a microphone on 220 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,240 Speaker 1: his windows sill for the purpose of recording bird song. 221 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: But he claimed that when listening to the recordings that 222 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 1: he had made, he was hearing voices saying things, um, nothing, 223 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 1: you know, huge or whatever. But he was picking up 224 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:57,079 Speaker 1: little things, and he started to suspect that in fact, 225 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,600 Speaker 1: the microphone was starting to pick up stuff that is uh, 226 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:05,960 Speaker 1: otherwise undetectable. So it was picking up things that were 227 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 1: not perceivable in his environment, according to his story. He 228 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: also claimed in nine that he received a message about 229 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: a central investigation station in space. So, um, there's there's 230 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 1: also some interesting You can't diagnose people obviously, right, especially 231 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,560 Speaker 1: with well, first of all, I am not qualified to 232 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: diagnose anybody in anything. Second into the past. Secondly, yeah, 233 00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: diagnosing into the past is always a mistake. But with 234 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: those caveats in mind, it doesn't sound on It sounds 235 00:13:36,520 --> 00:13:40,080 Speaker 1: to me like a form of schizophrenia. Uh, people who 236 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: believe that they have heard things from outside of themselves 237 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,640 Speaker 1: saying stuff, whether that's you know, instructions to do things 238 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 1: or just saying things that only they can hear. Uh, 239 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: it sounds very similar to that. However, he was claiming 240 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 1: that he was picking them up on a microphone, which 241 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: clearly would be beyond that. Right that now, now it's 242 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 1: perceptible to other people, it's not something that's just in 243 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: his head necessarily. Uh. In the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies, 244 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 1: another man named Constantine rawd Ive, who was a student 245 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,200 Speaker 1: of Jurgenson's, begins to make e VP recordings of his own, 246 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: and he allegedly recorded more than one hundred thousand audio 247 00:14:14,920 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: tapes worth of phenomena. He published in nineteen sixty eight 248 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: his findings under the title and herberaths vered Herbauer, which 249 00:14:23,680 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 1: is what is innaudible becomes audible. The English title for 250 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:32,400 Speaker 1: the book was Breakthrough an Amazing Experiment in Electronic Communication 251 00:14:32,440 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 1: with the Dead. So while I didn't see that Jurgensen 252 00:14:36,280 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: was specifically stating that he was hearing messages from beyond 253 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:45,040 Speaker 1: the grave, that's that was rawd Eve's interpretation certainly that 254 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: these were spirits that were attempting to communicate. Uh. There 255 00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 1: are a lot of interesting stories, especially from psychologists who 256 00:14:53,760 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: looked into rod Ive's approach and try to use a 257 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:02,120 Speaker 1: scientific methodology to test whether or not UM there were 258 00:15:02,160 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: some confirmation bias or other issues going on. We'll talk 259 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:10,479 Speaker 1: more about some of the psychological explanations for e VP phenomena. 260 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't know that's like a t M machine, but whatever, UM, 261 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: But anyway, we'll talk about those towards the end. Two 262 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,280 Speaker 1: was when the Association trans Communication is founded. This is 263 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:26,640 Speaker 1: an actual nonprofit organization dedicated to the study of all 264 00:15:26,680 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: forms of trans communication, which is communication across the veil 265 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 1: with an emphasis on instrumental transcommunication and its subset electronic 266 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: voice phenomena instrumental trans communication that sounds so legitimate. Yeah, 267 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 1: well it sounds better than like Quiji board, right, So um, 268 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: At any rate, uh, there are people and there are 269 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: smart people who are really looking into this uh and 270 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: trying to see what if anything of substance you know, 271 00:15:55,280 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: ectoplasma or otherwise happens to actually be there. Okay, So 272 00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: we have the idea on one hand that there are 273 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: real voices that are coming from real agents that may 274 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:09,840 Speaker 1: be people in space or or are most often thought 275 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: of as spirits or ghosts of some kind, communicating through 276 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: electronic media. What's the other side of the case. The 277 00:16:16,280 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: other side of the case is that there is no uh, 278 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:23,560 Speaker 1: there is no supernatural source for this and from this stuff. 279 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: There are plenty of natural sources that could explain many, 280 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: if not all, of the e v P that are 281 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: out there. Right, The argument is not necessarily that it's 282 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,880 Speaker 1: not supernatural. It's just that you don't need to resort 283 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: to that. There are plenty of things that could explain 284 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: the fact that you seem to be hearing voices in 285 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,640 Speaker 1: electronic media, which and the argument using the acam's razor 286 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 1: approach is saying, if you have an explanation that does 287 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: not require something that is herefore too unknown to science 288 00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 1: in order for it to have happened, then chances are 289 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: the more mundane explanation is in act correct. Okay, so 290 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 1: what are those possible mundane explanations? I think we should 291 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: break it down sort of into three categories, which would 292 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,880 Speaker 1: be the input, the output, and then the interpretation. That's 293 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: the way I sort of see it. So let's start 294 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: with the input. I think there are a lot of 295 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 1: different ways that the way you record audio in the 296 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:25,440 Speaker 1: first place can create all sorts of anomalies, so that 297 00:17:25,560 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: you wouldn't just expect to hear blank, white noise. You 298 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: would expect to hear random noises, you know, strange things. Sure, 299 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: what could influence that? Well, Uh, it depends on so 300 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: many things. For one, it depends on what medium you're using. Right, 301 00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: If you're using magnetic tape, magnetic tape already has like 302 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 1: a hiss associated to it, and that's before you've even 303 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:52,240 Speaker 1: started to put anything to the tape. If you've ever 304 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: listened to magnetic tape and it's you know, a quiet 305 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,359 Speaker 1: section where there was no sound being recorded, it's just 306 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 1: the tape playing. You'll still hear that hiss noise, So 307 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 1: that already has a base level there. Uh. Digital records 308 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 1: a little bit different. Of course, it all depends upon 309 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,760 Speaker 1: the quality and and sensitivity of the microphone. I've seen 310 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 1: some people on message boards at least advising against high 311 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:19,359 Speaker 1: quality audio recording equipment, right like somehow the higher higher 312 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: quality the recording, the less likely ghosts are gonna talk 313 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:25,879 Speaker 1: to you. Or maybe it's the higher quality the audio, 314 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 1: the less likely you're going to get any artifacts that 315 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:31,200 Speaker 1: can be misinterpreted to be messages from beyond the grave. Hey, 316 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 1: maybe that's me editorializing a little. Um. There's also the 317 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:39,480 Speaker 1: idea of raising up the microphone sensitivity, just cranking it 318 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: up as high as you possibly can, in order to 319 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: pick up any possible noises, and you don't. From from 320 00:18:46,680 --> 00:18:48,880 Speaker 1: one perspective, that makes sense. You're saying, oh, I want 321 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,760 Speaker 1: to make sure that if something is being uh communicated, 322 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:54,960 Speaker 1: even if it's really really faint, I want to be 323 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: able to pick it up. And one of the one 324 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: of the widely held beliefs that I don't think it's 325 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 1: ever adequately explained. Is that ghosts have a real hard 326 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: time speaking up. Yeah, you know that whatever whatever chance 327 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: you know, it takes. Yeah, that that is I almost 328 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,359 Speaker 1: should have said that at the beginning, that this is 329 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: a very common feature of this is it's not like 330 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: you're gonna hear really loud noises. You're gonna hear kind 331 00:19:20,160 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: of faint variations in the static and and little tiny 332 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 1: things that that are barely making it through. They advise 333 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: you to wear headphones and turn the volume way up, so, 334 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,639 Speaker 1: in other words, uh, turning up that sensitivito the microphone. 335 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 1: You know, we did an episode not too long ago 336 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: about audio production and talked about microphone sensitivity and how 337 00:19:40,800 --> 00:19:42,680 Speaker 1: you want to set it so that you can get 338 00:19:43,119 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 1: a decent recording. This is ignoring all of those those messages, 339 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,399 Speaker 1: it's ignoring all of those tips in order for you 340 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,199 Speaker 1: to try and maximize the chance that you're going to 341 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: get a hit. Uh. The issue here is that by 342 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 1: turning up that sensitivity, you turn up what is called 343 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,159 Speaker 1: the noise floor. This is just the natural noise that 344 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 1: electronic devices make. Um. You know the fact that you're 345 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,840 Speaker 1: using electronics in the first place, means you do have 346 00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 1: this ground level of noise, and when you have the 347 00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:14,480 Speaker 1: microphone sensitivities at a certain level, you pretty much don't 348 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:16,399 Speaker 1: pick up on it. But the higher you turn it up, 349 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: the more likely you're gonna pick up some of that noise. 350 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 1: So I thought it might be interesting for us to 351 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 1: do a little moment here where Noel's going to insert 352 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 1: a segment where he just he turns the microphone sensitivity 353 00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:32,440 Speaker 1: way up. Uh, And so folks were gonna have that 354 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: play right now. Um, you can adjust the volume on 355 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: your on your various MP three players or whatever so 356 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,719 Speaker 1: that you don't go deaf in case there is a 357 00:20:43,720 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: loud noise. Well, Noel does this. So no just adjusted 358 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 1: the the gain essentially on our microphones, and we sat 359 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:22,800 Speaker 1: here and listen to it, and to us it sounds 360 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: like white noise. I mean, obviously if we listened to 361 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,480 Speaker 1: it again and again, we might find something interesting there. 362 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 1: And I'll talk more about that towards the end of 363 00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: the episode. But that that's kind of an example, you know, 364 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 1: just the idea of cranking that microphone sensitivity way up. Um. 365 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: Another issue using electronic media in the first place is 366 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: the idea of encountering a ground loop. So ground loops 367 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: is that's when you've got a current connecting two points 368 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: and they're supposed to be the same electric potential, but 369 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: in fact they're different potentials. That is what creates hum 370 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,800 Speaker 1: and noise and interference. It can happen with just you know, 371 00:22:00,920 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: if you're using that cheap audio recording equipment. This is 372 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,360 Speaker 1: the sort of stuff that can happen. You're probably familiar 373 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 1: with this if you play electric guitars. Yeah, you're essentially 374 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: you're you're inviting artifacts and distortion and pops and whistles 375 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: and hums to get into your recording, which you know. 376 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: I can see why people who are big into e 377 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: v P say we should be using this equipment because 378 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,359 Speaker 1: otherwise you're not going to get stuff, and not getting 379 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: stuff might be an indication that there's nothing there another 380 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,879 Speaker 1: thing that could be creating anomalies at the beginning, at 381 00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 1: the recording phase. This is sort of the most obvious, 382 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 1: in the least interesting, but if you watch some of 383 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: these e VP videos on YouTube, you'll see that it 384 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: influences some of them. They're sometimes recorded in spaces that 385 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 1: are one currently full of people and too prone to 386 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,439 Speaker 1: cause echoes. So unless it's at like a mind convention, 387 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: chances are there's gonna be some people talking. Even then, 388 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 1: they're gonna be will moving around and making noise. But 389 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 1: so a good example would be, say a recording taken 390 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: in a church full of people worshiping or visiting the church, 391 00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:10,480 Speaker 1: and you told me that you actually saw a video 392 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: that was this particular example, right, Yeah, And in these 393 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: cases there are constantly echoes of voices reverberating throughout the space, 394 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:21,200 Speaker 1: and the microphone will pick up little pieces of them 395 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: with varying intensity and fidelity based on just all the 396 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: constantly changing variables that influenced the propagation of sound waves 397 00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: in a place with echoes like the church. Along the 398 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: same lines, when microphone sensitivity is high, think about all 399 00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: of the auditory anomalies created simply by the sound of 400 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: physical friction. Yeah, I think we've got a little example 401 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: of that in our our own version there, right, So, 402 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: a slight wind or a breeze over the microphone, Uh, 403 00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 1: the adjustment of the experimenter's hand or body or clothing 404 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,200 Speaker 1: against the microphone or the base on which the microphone 405 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,880 Speaker 1: is held, or just the microphone moving against the surface 406 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: it's sitting on. Yeah, all these things create different weird 407 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: little bumps and creeks and static. You may have heard 408 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,000 Speaker 1: in some of our podcasts where one of us accidentally, 409 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 1: like while shifting our weight, you know, gives the table 410 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: just a little kick and then you hear the thump 411 00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 1: that goes through. Noel's very good at taking most of 412 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: those out, but once in a while, I think one 413 00:24:19,520 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 1: slips through. So you know, that's one of those things 414 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: where it's an example of the sort of stuff that 415 00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:29,480 Speaker 1: could be you know, very much amplified with this sort 416 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: of approach where you're specifically looking for an anomally so 417 00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: anomaly hunting is a big problem with this. Actually, another 418 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: thing is I mean, what about all of those radio 419 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: signals bouncing around out there. Yeah, so it turns out 420 00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: we're using radio for a lot of stuff. Walkie talkies, 421 00:24:46,560 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: actual radio broadcasts, cellular phones. So, uh, Joe, I don't know, 422 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 1: did you ever play with like toy walkie talkies when 423 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 1: you're a kid. Did you ever pick up anything besides 424 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,880 Speaker 1: the actual other walkie talkie? Yes? I think I did. Yeah, 425 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: I would pick up CB radio like I could actually 426 00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: occasionally hear truckers talking and I would freak out because 427 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,320 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, like, who the you know, Brian's voice sure 428 00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:13,560 Speaker 1: got deep shut really quickly, and apparently Smokey's on his 429 00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: tail or something. I don't know what's going on. Yeah. 430 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 1: As it turns out, radio interference is a thing, and 431 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: sometimes it's obvious, and sometimes it can be really subtle. 432 00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: And uh, here's another example, Joe. Have you ever been 433 00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: driving someplace and listening to a radio station and then 434 00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: start to encounter a second radio station on that same frequency. Yeah, 435 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: and you until you get to a frequency that is 436 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: obviously stronger than the other one, you get this kind 437 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,159 Speaker 1: of interference and competing noise. Same sort of thing can 438 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: happen you. You might think that you're tuned into an 439 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 1: unoccupied radio frequency, but it may be that you're just 440 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: enough in the range of a radio broadcast station that 441 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,159 Speaker 1: you can pick it up very faintly and there's a 442 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,720 Speaker 1: lot of noise, but there actually is some signal there too. 443 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:03,520 Speaker 1: The signal might not always be obvious, but occasionally you 444 00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: might get a word or two, and that can be misleading. 445 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,119 Speaker 1: You might think that you're getting messages beyond the veil, 446 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: but really you're getting messages three counties over. There's also 447 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:17,920 Speaker 1: a phenomenon called ion a spheric ducting. This is when 448 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: radio signals can actually travel through the iono sphere much 449 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,919 Speaker 1: further than they normally would, when little pockets or ducts 450 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: form in the ionosphere. Now these don't these these aren't permanent. 451 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 1: It's not like you have this you know, incredible uh 452 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: pathway from one point to another all the way across 453 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 1: the Earth. But occasionally they can form. So it's possible 454 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: that once in a while, if you're really listening out 455 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: for something, that you might pick up radio signals that 456 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,440 Speaker 1: have traveled a really long distance to the point where 457 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: you might get things in other languages that you weren't expecting. 458 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 1: And that can really be you know, freaky if you're 459 00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: not expecting it. Um, but know that's that's all a possibility. 460 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: The recordings of Rawdive are really good examples of radio interference. UH. 461 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,160 Speaker 1: The one time that he agreed to make a recording 462 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: in a room that was specifically screened from radio interference, 463 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:15,240 Speaker 1: he did not record any voices. So obviously the idea 464 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: of proving a negative is a tough one. You know, 465 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:20,840 Speaker 1: you can't necessarily say that in every other case, UH, 466 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 1: this was an example of radio interference. But the fact 467 00:27:24,240 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: that in the one case where they they very methodically 468 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:32,880 Speaker 1: blocked it out, nothing happened is problematic. Yeah, I want 469 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:38,560 Speaker 1: to introduce another stage of audio recording at which you 470 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:44,399 Speaker 1: could be introducing strange anomalies and and undecipherable sounds, and 471 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: that would be at the output stage, so after you've 472 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: done the recording. Obviously, recording doesn't just go straight from 473 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: the microphone to your ears. A lot of times you're 474 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: going to run it through something sure before you finally 475 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: listen to it. So it's possible to create strange sounds 476 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:06,199 Speaker 1: inadvertently in a perfectly mundane recording just by putting it 477 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: through sound post processing software, especially if you're trying to 478 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 1: equalize volume or use any kind of automated subroutine that 479 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 1: did just the volume of the wave. And though it's 480 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: harder to see how this could happen by accident, you 481 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 1: can obviously create strange sounds by adding you know, the 482 00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: kind of music centered effects like compression or reverb or distortion. 483 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,520 Speaker 1: Sure well, yeah, and just just playing with equalizer settings 484 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:32,600 Speaker 1: right like where you you think, oh, I want to 485 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,479 Speaker 1: boost this particular frequency range because I want to have 486 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: a lot more base in this particular, or you know, 487 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: I need to I need to bring the trouble up, uh, 488 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: that sort of stuff occasionally that you know, what you're 489 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 1: doing is you're boosting the volume of the frequencies at 490 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: that range, and sometimes you're you're recording will have stuff 491 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: that at its settings when you were recording, there wasn't 492 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,520 Speaker 1: anything perceptible. But as you start to boost that volume, 493 00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:00,360 Speaker 1: you start to hear more of that noise, not just 494 00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: the signal, but the noise that's at that frequency, and 495 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 1: that's where you start maybe picking out things that you 496 00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: didn't know were there, and so therefore they seem like 497 00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: it was a purposeful communication, when in fact it may 498 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: just be noise. It may just be random noise that 499 00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: was recorded but not perceptible at the levels that you 500 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,040 Speaker 1: had said at at the time of recording. Right. But 501 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: everything we've said so far only gets us to the 502 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:28,280 Speaker 1: fact that these recordings aren't just blank, like the fact 503 00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:32,280 Speaker 1: that they will have strange things that sound off. You know, 504 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: it's not just flat static sound, but you'll hear a 505 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:40,320 Speaker 1: little anomalies, noises, creaks and cracks and bumps. The next 506 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: stage is how do you go from that towards why 507 00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: why do you hear a little crack in a in 508 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: a bunch of static and think I think it said 509 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:54,280 Speaker 1: my name. Well, assuming that you're actually well, first of all, 510 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: you could have the radio interference, so you could actually 511 00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: have you could actually have real words on there. But 512 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm saying apart from that one, just the ones where 513 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: they're all different kinds of anomalies and the sound recording gotcha. 514 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: So we're listening. Let's say you're listening to something that's 515 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:09,480 Speaker 1: supposed to be white noise, but you're starting to pick 516 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:11,960 Speaker 1: up on something that sounds like someone talking through the 517 00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: white noise, and uh and it it's one of those 518 00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:16,719 Speaker 1: things where you're you're having to listen to it over 519 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: and over again. There's several things that are possibly at play, 520 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: and one is our good old buddy paradolia. Audio paradolia 521 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: in this case, right, So, paradolia refers to something that 522 00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: you will immediately recognize as soon as we define it. 523 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:36,040 Speaker 1: It's the human tendency to find patterns and significance in 524 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,600 Speaker 1: random stimuli. So just looking at the grass you could 525 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: see a face, or looking at the clouds, the most 526 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: common example exactly you look at that one looks like 527 00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,960 Speaker 1: a dog and yeah, um, you look at the knots 528 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: in a tree and oh, there's a face in that tree. Yeah, 529 00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: and then you write a book called Game of Thrones 530 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:03,160 Speaker 1: and does incredibly success full. Uh. Yeah, we're hardwired to 531 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:06,520 Speaker 1: recognize patterns. Part of that is, you know, babies are 532 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: really good at recognizing human faces, and uh, when baby 533 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:12,960 Speaker 1: see human face, they tend to react in a way 534 00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: that makes, uh, most humans feel protective of that baby. Sure, 535 00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 1: so that's there's a possible survival instinct there. Well, I 536 00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: think it's not just that we're hardwired to recognize patterns, 537 00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: but I think it's that we're hardwired to beyond the 538 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:32,360 Speaker 1: special lookout for intelligent agents. Well it's certain, Yeah, I 539 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,480 Speaker 1: can see what you're saying. So on the lookout it's 540 00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:38,000 Speaker 1: the reason you're very likely to see a face in 541 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: the tree instead of see a mountain in the tree. Like, 542 00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:47,000 Speaker 1: we're on the lookout for things that act independently and quickly, 543 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: like animals and like other people, and potential threats that 544 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 1: the big one. You can see an obvious advantage to this, 545 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: because if you see something in the bushes that could 546 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: be a tiger, or it could be another person who 547 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: wants to steal your stuff. Is it better to air 548 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: on the side of and it's probably nothing, or is 549 00:32:09,440 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 1: it better to air on the side of better get 550 00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 1: away from that? Well, there's obviously a survival advantage to 551 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: airing on the side of I don't know what that is, 552 00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: but it could be something that wants to get me 553 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:22,959 Speaker 1: and and and in that case, it's when you're on 554 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: the lookout for things that have agency. Yeah, there's definitely 555 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,280 Speaker 1: that's definitely playing a part in it. It's it's one 556 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: of those things. And plus, if you're if you are 557 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:35,720 Speaker 1: looking for it, actively looking for it, you want to 558 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: find something, right, That's there's there's the desire if you're 559 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: actively looking for something, then that that is based upon 560 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:47,240 Speaker 1: the idea that you want to find whatever it is 561 00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,400 Speaker 1: you're looking for, and so that desire can also definitely 562 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: feed into it. Right. But the examples we've talked about 563 00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: so far are visual. If you translate the same thing 564 00:32:56,520 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: to an auditory phenomena, then what you it is auditory paradolia. 565 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: So if you hear a sound calling out in the distance, 566 00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,160 Speaker 1: wait a minute, is it the wind going through that tree, 567 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:13,480 Speaker 1: or is it somebody warning me of danger. Right. Yeah, 568 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: it's one of those things where again, if you're looking 569 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: for it, you're more likely to hear it as being significant. Right. 570 00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,479 Speaker 1: But even if you're not looking for it, we can 571 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: be pretty susceptible to that sort of thing where we 572 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:26,320 Speaker 1: start to we start to attribute significance where there may 573 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 1: not be any there. Um and uh. A great example 574 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: of this is the idea of backmasking, the idea of 575 00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: putting in secret messages, recording them and then laying them 576 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: down backwards. In an audio track, you said putting in 577 00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: I think you should have meant interpreting, Well, well, they're 578 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,920 Speaker 1: reading out there are The idea is that they've been 579 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: put in purposefully, whereas in rock record in reality, in reality, 580 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,560 Speaker 1: it very rarely happened. Occasionally it did happen. People would 581 00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: put in messages backwards, but it was almost always a joke, 582 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,800 Speaker 1: like uh, weird Weird Al I think has backwards recordings 583 00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 1: on like half his albums, where if you play backwards 584 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: it will say things like congratulations, you just screwed up 585 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,919 Speaker 1: your record player. That kind of thing like that. That's 586 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: the sort of backwards messages that you might get. But um, 587 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: but the idea of back masking really took off in 588 00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:22,359 Speaker 1: the eighties the during the Satanic Panic. That was an 589 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,600 Speaker 1: era where there was this huge concern that Satanists were 590 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: corrupting the youth and turning them to their wicked ways, 591 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,400 Speaker 1: and that pretty much everything that kids enjoyed was was 592 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,960 Speaker 1: actually the the tool of the Satanist movements. So rock 593 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: and roll music was a big one, and there was 594 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,400 Speaker 1: the this this idea that UH musicians have been putting 595 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: in secret messages to get kids to do terrible things 596 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: if they listened to it. Somehow they shouldn't listen to 597 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: those DeBie Gibson records. And you definitely shouldn't have listened 598 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: to those Debbie Gibson records. I was a Tiffining fan myself. 599 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:00,439 Speaker 1: The idea being that somehow we were subconsciously being able 600 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,640 Speaker 1: to interpret this backwards messaging, and therefore it would get 601 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:07,200 Speaker 1: through to our subconscious and we would do terrible things. 602 00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: By the way, if you try and listen to backwards 603 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,439 Speaker 1: messages and trying to figure out what is being said, 604 00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,239 Speaker 1: I pretty much guarantee you you're gonna be a percent wrong, 605 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:18,280 Speaker 1: because it's it's really hard to tell. Well. But also 606 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: I pretty much guarantee you you're you're going to find 607 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: stuff that sounds like words in a funny way. Oh sure. Yeah. 608 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: If if you were to play anything backwards, even if 609 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: there's there was never let's say that the stuff that 610 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,919 Speaker 1: came out had no message in it at all. Right, 611 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,279 Speaker 1: you could argue that even the lyrics didn't have a 612 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: message in some of these songs in the eighties. But 613 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 1: let's say you play it backwards and you're just listening 614 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: for something and mustering cat bail. We still you could 615 00:35:47,160 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: very easily start to imagine that you're hearing things that 616 00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,959 Speaker 1: have significance even if there is no significance there. And 617 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: it makes it way easier if someone else tells you 618 00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 1: what you should be listening for, especially if like on 619 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,239 Speaker 1: a YouTube video and has an example of this and 620 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: then has captions up well. In fact, a lot of 621 00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: e VP videos that I found on YouTube actually do 622 00:36:12,480 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 1: have captions. They come pre preloaded with the person who's 623 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,799 Speaker 1: presenting this telling you what they think it says. And 624 00:36:20,840 --> 00:36:22,960 Speaker 1: when I was listening to it, I was like, huh, 625 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:25,399 Speaker 1: you know, I think I never would have arrived at 626 00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,920 Speaker 1: those words listening to it on my own. But now 627 00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 1: that I'm watching them on the screen hearing it. Yeah, 628 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: I can sort of hear that. Okay, So now we've 629 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: got a couple of competing hypotheses. We've got we've got 630 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:41,760 Speaker 1: ghosts actually talking through audio recording equipment, and we've got 631 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: audio anomalies coupled with our tendency to see patterns and 632 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: especially like uh, intelligent or agency created patterns where they're 633 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 1: not there. How do we test which one of them 634 00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 1: is actually the reality. Well, again, it's really hard to 635 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: to prove a negative, right, It's hard to sit there 636 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:06,160 Speaker 1: and say, uh, there is no message in this recording. 637 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 1: If one person is claiming up and down that yes, 638 00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,400 Speaker 1: there is a message here, and someone else is saying, no, 639 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 1: there isn't a message there, you're not really making any progress. 640 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: One thing you could do, if you wanted to be 641 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,680 Speaker 1: really clever, is you could create a test where you 642 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: present people with white noise. There's no message, it was 643 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,600 Speaker 1: purely random white noise generation, nothing else of significance is 644 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: in there. But tell people that it's actually a message 645 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,479 Speaker 1: and then asked them to write down anything they hear 646 00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: and see what happens. Because that's what David Ellis did. Now, 647 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:45,839 Speaker 1: David ellis still a lot of investigation of e VP phenomena, 648 00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,839 Speaker 1: again using the redundant phrase, but at any rate, he 649 00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:53,280 Speaker 1: did a lot of investigation in this area, and he 650 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,080 Speaker 1: held this test where he got a group of people 651 00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: together and he said, we're gonna play for you a lecture. 652 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: It's an old lecture that's been recorded ages ago, and 653 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:05,759 Speaker 1: the qualities course, yeah, sort of like that, like it 654 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: was some sort of lecture of that sense, and it 655 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: was a publicly given lecture, but the recording has degraded, 656 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,960 Speaker 1: uh to the point where we can't recapture anything that's said. 657 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: We just want to you to write down any words 658 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 1: or phrases that you do here so that we can 659 00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,759 Speaker 1: start to piece this back together. And don't worry about 660 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,720 Speaker 1: trying to get everything because it's not going to happen. 661 00:38:26,719 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: But if you hear anything specific, write it down. And 662 00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,280 Speaker 1: sure enough, the people who listened to this white noise 663 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: that had no message in it started writing downwards and 664 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: phrases they thought they had heard, and there was no 665 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,360 Speaker 1: real significance to the words or phrases except for whatever 666 00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 1: happened to be on their mind at the time, suggesting 667 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,560 Speaker 1: that in fact, this was purely psychological, so showing that 668 00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,480 Speaker 1: this is in fact a possible Like if this is 669 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,719 Speaker 1: possible to play people a recording that has no significance 670 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,439 Speaker 1: to it, but they find significance in it, Isn't that 671 00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 1: more realistic a conclusion? And then to say something that 672 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:08,480 Speaker 1: we haven't proven exists is communicating in unknown mechanism electronically. 673 00:39:09,920 --> 00:39:12,640 Speaker 1: Probably yeah. I mean if again, if you sit there 674 00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: and say, here's this, here's this real life situation we 675 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:21,239 Speaker 1: can point to where real people who there was no 676 00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: supernatural element to this experiment, right, he would be told 677 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,640 Speaker 1: it was an old recording. Well, unless they unless someone 678 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: would come along and say, well, the ghosts put messages 679 00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,880 Speaker 1: in your white noise recording to throw off the experiment. 680 00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: But that would only work if the group all wrote 681 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: down the same words and phrases, and they didn't. But 682 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,520 Speaker 1: of course people don't even do that with these supposed 683 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,960 Speaker 1: e VP recordings, which is another If you were to 684 00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,560 Speaker 1: remove the captions, I can guarantee you people would come 685 00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: up with different messages from them. That comes up to 686 00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,759 Speaker 1: the verbal transformation effect. That's another issue that's related to this. 687 00:39:53,920 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: That was a term coined by Richard M. Warren, who 688 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:00,600 Speaker 1: was a professor of psychology way back in one and 689 00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: he wrote about this tendency for listeners to perceive changes 690 00:40:03,680 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: of distinct speech upon repetition. In other words, the more 691 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,439 Speaker 1: often you listen to something, the more likely you would 692 00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:12,399 Speaker 1: perceive something that wasn't actually said. This ties into yet 693 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: another aspect common to the way these e VP recordings 694 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:20,040 Speaker 1: are presented, which is that they're looped all the time. 695 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,439 Speaker 1: If you go watch on YouTube, people will they'll play 696 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 1: it once and then they'll have a caption or something 697 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: that says listen, I think it said whatever, and then 698 00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 1: they'll play it five times in a row. He also 699 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,480 Speaker 1: looked at rowd Ive's work and said that rod I've 700 00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: when he was listening to stuff, Um would come up 701 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:41,080 Speaker 1: with certain words like Lenin was like l E n 702 00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,120 Speaker 1: I n as in the name like Ladimir. Yes, he 703 00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:47,640 Speaker 1: was coming up with the name Lenin with this one 704 00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,840 Speaker 1: selection of noise and saying that was definitely what was 705 00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: being said, and he had been listening to it over 706 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: and over and over again. But when presented to other 707 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 1: people who had not listened to it before and did 708 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,799 Speaker 1: not know the interpretation, they were coming up with totally 709 00:41:01,840 --> 00:41:06,000 Speaker 1: different sounds, like boo doo or clue lu or you know, 710 00:41:06,160 --> 00:41:09,480 Speaker 1: they hadn't. It didn't sound remotely like linen to them. 711 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:11,880 Speaker 1: And and part of that is because one they had 712 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:13,680 Speaker 1: not listened to it over and over and over again. 713 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,440 Speaker 1: And too they had not been told what to listen for. 714 00:41:17,239 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 1: And so if you're not told what to listen for 715 00:41:19,200 --> 00:41:21,719 Speaker 1: and you come up with a totally different interpretation, how 716 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,280 Speaker 1: can anyone be certain that the words they are perceiving 717 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:28,680 Speaker 1: are in fact actual words. I want to offer an 718 00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:34,320 Speaker 1: observation of my own about these recordings, just e VP recordings, 719 00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: which is that very often the phrases that are interpreted 720 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: are not long sentences. They're very short. They're like one 721 00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: to three words at a time. And also, I would 722 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:53,800 Speaker 1: say that what is common among the interpretations is more 723 00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:58,680 Speaker 1: rhythmic than uh than what would be the opposite, like 724 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:01,720 Speaker 1: the vowel sound ones and stuff like that. So imagine 725 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: you've got an audio anomaly and you ask ten different people, 726 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,600 Speaker 1: assume this is a word, what does the words say? 727 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,200 Speaker 1: I think what will be very common to almost all 728 00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:15,600 Speaker 1: of them is the number of syllables in the word. 729 00:42:16,520 --> 00:42:19,640 Speaker 1: And then apart from that, it's going to be very different. 730 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,840 Speaker 1: And so it's something about the rhythm of the word 731 00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,240 Speaker 1: that seems to be central and how people are interpreting things. 732 00:42:27,719 --> 00:42:29,400 Speaker 1: And that makes a lot of sense to me, because 733 00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,320 Speaker 1: I feel like you're really not likely to hear something 734 00:42:32,360 --> 00:42:35,919 Speaker 1: that sounds like a vowel in an audio anomally, You're 735 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,600 Speaker 1: more likely to hear a little percussive elements that seem 736 00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 1: to be the beginnings and ends of hard consonance. If 737 00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,600 Speaker 1: you filter through white noise, you can start to create 738 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,279 Speaker 1: some some vowel sounds, depending on how you're filtering it. 739 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 1: But then that that's almost like an artificial like that's 740 00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: almost like trying to manufacture these kind of recordings. And again, 741 00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 1: if it's one of those where it's picking up little 742 00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,200 Speaker 1: tiny snippets of radio communication one way or another, it 743 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,160 Speaker 1: may be that you are actually hearing bits or entire 744 00:43:06,239 --> 00:43:09,600 Speaker 1: words or short phrases. But uh As, a lot of 745 00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,960 Speaker 1: researchers have pointed out that if the if the dearly 746 00:43:13,000 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: departed are trying to communicate with us, they are really 747 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 1: really bad at saying anything of significance, Like if they're 748 00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:21,520 Speaker 1: able to talk most of the most of the time, 749 00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:26,320 Speaker 1: the phrases that are coming by have no real impact 750 00:43:26,480 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: or meaning to them, and so especially if it's the 751 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:38,200 Speaker 1: ones where exactly so. And finally, I think another thing 752 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,760 Speaker 1: that's playing here in psychology is just if you again, 753 00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: if you're looking for the communication of spirits from beyond 754 00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:48,960 Speaker 1: the grave, it already you know, that's built upon a 755 00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,400 Speaker 1: presumption that there is a thing beyond the grave to contact. Sure, 756 00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,880 Speaker 1: and the fact that e VP phenomenon are probably not 757 00:43:57,000 --> 00:44:01,160 Speaker 1: real voices doesn't necessarily like disprove and after life or no. No, 758 00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,680 Speaker 1: it just means that there's really no reason to assume 759 00:44:04,760 --> 00:44:07,640 Speaker 1: that these are ghosts talking to you in the noises 760 00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,239 Speaker 1: in your audio tape. And and it just it does 761 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: end up like if you pursue this, it does mean 762 00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,880 Speaker 1: that you are, uh, you're you're normally hunting, just like 763 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,680 Speaker 1: we were saying, poor and when you when you hunt 764 00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:21,080 Speaker 1: for anomalies, you will find them. I mean that that 765 00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:24,279 Speaker 1: does happen. But it doesn't mean that the anomalies are 766 00:44:24,320 --> 00:44:27,920 Speaker 1: significant in any way. And that's the issue there is 767 00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,920 Speaker 1: that again, it doesn't mean that like even if no 768 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,239 Speaker 1: e v P ever in the history of mankind was 769 00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:39,520 Speaker 1: truly significant, that doesn't That's not like the nail in 770 00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: the coffin of the afterlife for a terrible, terrible phrase, 771 00:44:43,640 --> 00:44:48,440 Speaker 1: but it means that that potential avenue doesn't have any 772 00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,200 Speaker 1: real merit to it. And ultimately this is if this 773 00:44:51,280 --> 00:44:54,439 Speaker 1: is the foothold you're using on which to base your 774 00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,440 Speaker 1: belief afterlife, it might be an incentive for you to 775 00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,440 Speaker 1: really cling to it. Yeah, and it's it's again, it's 776 00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: one of those things where the mechanism for that communication 777 00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,600 Speaker 1: as always really shaky. I mean that that's the truth 778 00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,880 Speaker 1: for any kind of paranormal research that I've found, because 779 00:45:12,080 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: since we don't have the scientific evidence to support whatever 780 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,919 Speaker 1: the claim is um yet. I mean, maybe one day 781 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,239 Speaker 1: we will, but if we since we don't have it, 782 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,600 Speaker 1: then it requires some fancy footwork on the part of 783 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:29,480 Speaker 1: people who are looking into it to try and explain 784 00:45:30,160 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: how their methodology is supposed to be effective. Like if 785 00:45:33,440 --> 00:45:38,839 Speaker 1: if I if I tell you, Joe, that there's an 786 00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:44,520 Speaker 1: invisible but still orange flying monkey that is constantly following 787 00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,640 Speaker 1: you around, but you are unable to perceive it in 788 00:45:46,680 --> 00:45:49,840 Speaker 1: any way. But I tell you that this one little 789 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 1: needle will move when it comes close to it. Whenever 790 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,640 Speaker 1: the monkey is really close to you, the needle will move. 791 00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: But I don't explain how that's supposed to happen or 792 00:45:58,640 --> 00:46:02,480 Speaker 1: what the mech an is m there is. You know, 793 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:04,759 Speaker 1: I have to prove that something is there first to 794 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:06,960 Speaker 1: be able to show you that a tool can detect 795 00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:09,799 Speaker 1: its presence. You can't. You can't say that this tool 796 00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:12,200 Speaker 1: detects the presence of something you haven't proven to exist. 797 00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,160 Speaker 1: So you know it's it's that made the same argument 798 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:19,719 Speaker 1: in our ghost Hunting episode years and years ago. And 799 00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,760 Speaker 1: uh again, it's not to say that these things don't exist. 800 00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:24,840 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't believe in them, but it doesn't 801 00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:28,800 Speaker 1: mean that I'm right. I just haven't seen any evidence 802 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:31,560 Speaker 1: for it. And if I were to see evidence that 803 00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:36,200 Speaker 1: was very compelling, I mean, this would require extraordinary evidence. 804 00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,920 Speaker 1: But if I did, then I would like to think 805 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:40,800 Speaker 1: I would say, oh, yeah, you know what, I was 806 00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,439 Speaker 1: wrong and this is really exciting and I can't wait 807 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,799 Speaker 1: to learn more about how to study it. But so 808 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,839 Speaker 1: far I have not seen that. I was just trying 809 00:46:49,840 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: to think what would be really good evidence for the 810 00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:58,800 Speaker 1: truth of spiritual basis for e VP Ghostbusters three, and 811 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: you know, with Harold Ramos, that would be that would 812 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 1: be it. I was trying to see if Harold Ramos 813 00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:11,960 Speaker 1: would contact us from beyond the grave and the silence 814 00:47:12,000 --> 00:47:14,440 Speaker 1: while I stared at you. Okay, No, So that just 815 00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:17,160 Speaker 1: was really awkward as opposed to UH as as as 816 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:20,760 Speaker 1: opposed to enlightening. Um no, I mean I I think 817 00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,439 Speaker 1: that it would have to be uh something that could 818 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:30,759 Speaker 1: be uh replicable by different people using very strict approaches, 819 00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,560 Speaker 1: so that they could all kind of come to the 820 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,759 Speaker 1: same conclusion. So in other words, like even then, I 821 00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:38,759 Speaker 1: guess it would be hard to to be conclusive about 822 00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:41,799 Speaker 1: the source of it. Yeah, I mean to me, what 823 00:47:41,880 --> 00:47:44,399 Speaker 1: would mean? Yeah, I guess you could do some kind 824 00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:47,879 Speaker 1: of radio isolation thing. Well, yeah, let's let's like, here's 825 00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,360 Speaker 1: a theoretical instance that I could imagine making me change 826 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: my mind. Let's say that you have multiple independent teams 827 00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:02,360 Speaker 1: who are from varying backgrounds. So you might have some 828 00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:04,239 Speaker 1: people who are ghost hunters, you might have some people 829 00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:09,719 Speaker 1: who are deeply skeptical, all using their whatever equipment there 830 00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:14,240 Speaker 1: they want in order to pick up the phenomena uh, 831 00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,040 Speaker 1: And they all pick something up, and they all interpret 832 00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,640 Speaker 1: it to be a meaningful communication, and they are able 833 00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:23,520 Speaker 1: to eliminate the possibility that was radio interference. Then I'd 834 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,320 Speaker 1: be like, well, that's that's really hard to argue away. 835 00:48:27,080 --> 00:48:30,520 Speaker 1: I would have a hard time saying like this is 836 00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:33,520 Speaker 1: there is nothing there. I would at least say there's 837 00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,440 Speaker 1: something they're worth looking into. Whether it ever turns out 838 00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,120 Speaker 1: to be something significant still remains to be seen. But 839 00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:42,680 Speaker 1: that would definitely get me thinking, yeah, I'm there with you. 840 00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:44,960 Speaker 1: I think I'd be mostly convinced by that. And then 841 00:48:45,000 --> 00:48:48,279 Speaker 1: my question would be like, why are ghosts from a 842 00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 1: few hundred years ago so tech savvy? Well they might. 843 00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:53,920 Speaker 1: They might just be saying, how do you work this thing? 844 00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,160 Speaker 1: How do you how do you skip? The next time 845 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:05,200 Speaker 1: I can't get out of the Yeah, exactly, you press information. 846 00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:11,840 Speaker 1: It's asking me for my iTunes account. I don't have one. Yeah, 847 00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: But at any rate, it's an interesting it's an interesting subject. 848 00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,600 Speaker 1: I think largely for the human factor, you know, the 849 00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:23,320 Speaker 1: people who are really really invested in this, and uh, 850 00:49:23,360 --> 00:49:25,359 Speaker 1: and you know, who knows. Maybe one day they'll turn 851 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,160 Speaker 1: around and again present proof that makes me eat all 852 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:32,080 Speaker 1: my words and I'll gladly say, let's really look into this. 853 00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,239 Speaker 1: But so far that has not happened, and uh, I 854 00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:39,560 Speaker 1: don't expect it to. But you know, never say never. Nevertheless, 855 00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:41,759 Speaker 1: they make some great YouTube videos. They do make some 856 00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,240 Speaker 1: great YouTube videos, and for that we are thankful. Uh guys, 857 00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,960 Speaker 1: Happy Halloween. This was a fun topic to look into. 858 00:49:50,000 --> 00:49:52,520 Speaker 1: If you guys have any suggestions for future topics of 859 00:49:52,560 --> 00:49:55,880 Speaker 1: tech Stuff or future guests, maybe there's somebody you've always 860 00:49:55,920 --> 00:49:58,760 Speaker 1: wanted to hear uh join on the show, or maybe 861 00:49:58,840 --> 00:50:00,640 Speaker 1: someone in the past that you want to have come back. 862 00:50:00,800 --> 00:50:03,600 Speaker 1: Let me know. Send me an email. My email addresses 863 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: tex stuff at how stuff works dot com, or drop 864 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: me a line on Facebook, Twitter or Tumbler. The handle 865 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,080 Speaker 1: at all three is tech Stuff hs W and what 866 00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:18,440 Speaker 1: talp you again? Really soon for more on this and 867 00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 1: thousands of other topics because it has stuff works dot com.