Speaker 1: Pushkin. This is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. You know, much
Speaker 1: like using ride sharing. They'll get a text when it's saying, hey,
Speaker 1: the product's one minute away, please step outside. It's going
Speaker 1: to be delivered in your mailbox. Drone delivery items falling
Speaker 1: from the sky right to your mailbox with just the
Speaker 1: push of a button. Are you excited nervous? They don't
Speaker 1: call them drones, they just call them sky ambulances. Keller
Speaker 1: Renato runs zip Line International. To be clear, his drone
Speaker 1: delivery service isn't dropping off last minute anniversary presence or
Speaker 1: late night takeout. Zip Line is focused on delivering medical supplies.
Speaker 1: According to the WHO, over five million kids under the
Speaker 1: age of five die every year due to a lack
Speaker 1: of access to basic medical products and care. Zipline regularly
Speaker 1: delivers whole blood platelets, fresh frozen plasma, and clotting products.
Speaker 1: These kinds of medical deliveries are especially helpful in places
Speaker 1: with unreliable roads and large populations living in remote and
Speaker 1: rural areas. Today, zip line deliveries can reach just about
Speaker 1: any location across Rwanda and the entirety of Ghana, and
Speaker 1: they just started to deliver in the US so North
Speaker 1: Carolina is learning from Rwanda. Is that how you would
Speaker 1: characterize it? During this pandemic, the ability to take medical
Speaker 1: appointments online has been a lifesaver, keeping us safely away
Speaker 1: from enclosed office spaces and out of hospitals that are
Speaker 1: overcrowded with COVID nineteen emergencies. Zip Line sees the work
Speaker 1: they do as the next step in a remote medical
Speaker 1: service chain. In many ways, the logistics service, the kind
Speaker 1: of instant delivery the zipline provides, is just the other
Speaker 1: half of the telepresence. Kelornado is the CEO and founder
Speaker 1: of zip Line International. My sollable is making sure that
Speaker 1: every human on earth has access to basic medical products.
Speaker 1: My co host an Apple Bomb, spoke with Renaldo. Here's
Speaker 1: their conversation. Explain to me how it works. In other words,
Speaker 1: there's a there's a nurse who sees that she needs
Speaker 1: a particular blood product in rural Tanzania. Does she pick
Speaker 1: up a phone and call someone? Is? How does the
Speaker 1: system work? And how is it that the drones are
Speaker 1: ready to go? And you know, are they are they
Speaker 1: in some kind of medical base to start with? What
Speaker 1: does the system look like? Although there's a lot of
Speaker 1: complicated technology behind the service that we provide. The experience
Speaker 1: of the service itself is extremely simple, which is essentially
Speaker 1: a push a button on a phone, get the medical
Speaker 1: product that you need to save a patient's life delivered
Speaker 1: to your GPS coordinates. There's no training really required for
Speaker 1: nurses or doctors or health workers. They can place orders
Speaker 1: in a number of different ways, either via an online
Speaker 1: form or by calling a phone number, or also by
Speaker 1: using what'sapp. What'sapp actually winds up being an incredibly reliable
Speaker 1: kind of infrastructure in a lot of these countries, and
Speaker 1: so any nurse or doctor or health worker can place
Speaker 1: an order. All of the complexity of you know, autonomous
Speaker 1: aircraft and like getting regulatory approval and knowing how to
Speaker 1: do safety and maintenance, etc. Is kind of handled in
Speaker 1: the background. You know, they'll get a text message saying
Speaker 1: thanks for letting us know an order has been dispatched.
Speaker 1: It is twenty four minutes away. And then much like
Speaker 1: using ride sharing, they'll get a text when it's saying, hey,
Speaker 1: the products one minute away, please step outside. It's going
Speaker 1: to be delivered into your mailbox. And the runes really
Speaker 1: move fast enough to make this work. Yeah, So that
Speaker 1: you know, the simple technology, Zipline builds distribution centers and
Speaker 1: then the aircraft themselves. We employ teams of engineers and
Speaker 1: operators at each distribution center. Each distribution center can serve
Speaker 1: around twenty thousand square kilometers or something like eight thousand
Speaker 1: square miles, which is typically between two and ten million people.
Speaker 1: So for example, we cover the whole country of rwand
Speaker 1: that with two distribution centers cover the whole country of
Speaker 1: Ghana with about eight. That's where we store inventory of
Speaker 1: medical products. And then each distribution center will serve around
Speaker 1: two hundred to four hundred primary care facilities and hospitals,
Speaker 1: and each of those facilities is getting a delivery, often
Speaker 1: several times a day, sometimes several times a week, depending
Speaker 1: on the size of the facility. But essentially is just teleportation.
Speaker 1: It means that now tell it's possible to teleport products
Speaker 1: from a central place out to all these different places
Speaker 1: where patients may need something. The benefit of having a
Speaker 1: teleportation like service for national healthcare systems is that they
Speaker 1: can dramatically improve access, particularly for vulnerable populations. They can
Speaker 1: reduce waste because you're sending less stuff out to the
Speaker 1: last mile and before it's actually needed by a patient.
Speaker 1: And finally, you can actually increase the diversity of the
Speaker 1: products that are available at primary care facilities. So it
Speaker 1: makes it possible to treat patients closer where they live.
Speaker 1: And what are the finances of it? Isn't it too
Speaker 1: expensive for a country like Rwanda to have to have
Speaker 1: a drone service delivering medication when it comes to questions
Speaker 1: around the unit ac comics of what we do, that's
Speaker 1: actually one of the big advantages of delivering in this way.
Speaker 1: If you have a lot of medicine in the system
Speaker 1: and a lot of these things expire, it's very expensive,
Speaker 1: may have specific storage requirements or short shelf life. A
Speaker 1: lot of medicine gets thrown out. Millions and millions of
Speaker 1: dollars in medicine actually expires every year and gets thrown out.
Speaker 1: And so by having a more efficient logistics system that
Speaker 1: by the way, is cost comparable to using trucks or motorcycles,
Speaker 1: you can actually save these healthcare systems a lot of money.
Speaker 1: So is this a little bit like as has been
Speaker 1: the case in a number of countries, including a lot
Speaker 1: of African countries, that people get cell phones before landlines
Speaker 1: earns or established. Essentially you're offering a technology that's higher
Speaker 1: and better than they would have if they were doing
Speaker 1: road deliveries. Are we skipping a stage of infrastructure in
Speaker 1: order to do this? That is exactly how we often
Speaker 1: think about about this, and that's typically called leap frogging
Speaker 1: in global development, and the idea of leap frogging land
Speaker 1: lines to go straight to cell phones. I think it's
Speaker 1: a very similar thing to what's happening here. It's often
Speaker 1: the countries that have the highest need and the ability
Speaker 1: to move quickly on a new technology, they can actually
Speaker 1: innovate the fastest. So for example, Kenya has like the
Speaker 1: highest rate of adoption for mobile payments of any country
Speaker 1: on Earth. I believe that was the case at least
Speaker 1: a year ago. Rwanda and Ghana have fully autonomous systems
Speaker 1: delivering large percentages of their healthcare supply chains and in
Speaker 1: a cost effective way, and that network of distribution centers
Speaker 1: has become the largest commercial autonomous system on Earth. Funny
Speaker 1: if I have been to both Rwanda and Ghana and
Speaker 1: relative to other countries in the in their respective regions,
Speaker 1: both of them, for very different reasons, are relatively well run.
Speaker 1: That's true, you know, would this work in a less
Speaker 1: well run country. I mean, how much do you depend
Speaker 1: on the local health bureaucracy and you know, the training
Speaker 1: of local bureaucrats and technicians. I mean, it doesn't work without,
Speaker 1: you know, an amazing partner on the other side. A
Speaker 1: lot of the success that we've had in Rwanda and
Speaker 1: Ghana is thanks to exactly as you said. You know,
Speaker 1: we chose Rwanda and Ghana for a reason, really innovative
Speaker 1: governments that are moving fast or investing in healthcare, investing
Speaker 1: in infrastructure. And for sure, there are some governments, both
Speaker 1: in Africa but also other parts of the world that
Speaker 1: just are not well enough organized probably to take advantage
Speaker 1: of this kind of technology yet. But that said, I
Speaker 1: mean there are a lot of countries that are now
Speaker 1: following in Rwanda and Ghana's footsteps, the US, you know,
Speaker 1: potentially the biggest among them. A lot of countries are
Speaker 1: looking at what they've achieved. I mean, the fact that
Speaker 1: Rwanda is now providing universal access to healthcare for every
Speaker 1: single one of its fifteen million or so citizens in
Speaker 1: a way that is a cost effective and be enables
Speaker 1: all these new paradigms of care, especially close to where
Speaker 1: people live and This is something that impacts every healthcare system,
Speaker 1: especially coming out of this pandemic. So in the US,
Speaker 1: you know, the pandemic has led a lot of hospital
Speaker 1: systems to suddenly focus on, Hey, how do we decent
Speaker 1: centralized care. How do we treat patients closer where they live,
Speaker 1: extend the reach of the hospital system directly into the home.
Speaker 1: And they look at what Rwanda and Gone are doing
Speaker 1: and say, that's a good answer. So this is, for example,
Speaker 1: the reason that we launched with Navant Healthcare in North
Speaker 1: Carolina in the middle of last year. So North Carolina
Speaker 1: is learning from Rwanda. Is that how you would characterize it,
Speaker 1: This trend of big hospital systems that used to rely
Speaker 1: on patients coming into the hospital to receive care. Patients
Speaker 1: hate that. The most vulnerable populations are the ones that
Speaker 1: are least likely to be able to even do that,
Speaker 1: to take time off work or have a car to
Speaker 1: get to that hospital in a city, and it's the
Speaker 1: most expensive way of treating a patient. So as we
Speaker 1: actually start paying for quality of care and outcomes rather
Speaker 1: than paying for procedures, health systems become incentivized to treat
Speaker 1: patients closer where they live. If you can treat them
Speaker 1: at a primary care facility. That's amazing. If you can
Speaker 1: send a home healthcare nurse directly to their home, or
Speaker 1: you can just you know, have them talk to a
Speaker 1: doctor via telepresence. In many ways, the logistics service, the
Speaker 1: kind of instant delivery the zipline provides, is just the
Speaker 1: other half of telepresence. I do have to say, I
Speaker 1: remember first hearing the expression telemedicine being used widely at
Speaker 1: the beginning of the pandemic, and it sounded so exciting
Speaker 1: until I realized that it really, most of the time
Speaker 1: meant talking to the doctor on the phone, which seemed
Speaker 1: to seem much less exciting that fancy. It's like pretty
Speaker 1: it's kind of crazy actually that that was going to
Speaker 1: you know that that has taken so long. Is it
Speaker 1: possible that this is working partly because there's so few
Speaker 1: other drones being used this way. I mean, drones are
Speaker 1: used for photography, and they're used for they you know,
Speaker 1: they have a military function, but they haven't really been
Speaker 1: used as a delivery service before. I mean, can you
Speaker 1: imagine us running into trouble if there were lots of
Speaker 1: people doing this or do you think it will? It's
Speaker 1: something that we're all just going to get used to
Speaker 1: over time. People often ask about that. I I think
Speaker 1: people have this sense that like, oh my god, the
Speaker 1: sky is going to be darkened by drones, and I
Speaker 1: actually think, just from a physics perspective, probably people's intuition
Speaker 1: is a little bit off about how big the sky is.
Speaker 1: You know, when we're flying, we fly below the commercial
Speaker 1: aviation floor, but well above where you can hear the
Speaker 1: vehicle or even really distinguish the vehicle from a bird.
Speaker 1: It's very hard to see an aircraft when it's flying
Speaker 1: by it four hundred feet which is our cruise altitude,
Speaker 1: and the sky the sky is just really really large.
Speaker 1: That leads obviously to the next question, which is what
Speaker 1: do these drones look like? How big are they? How
Speaker 1: fast do they fly? And how do they operate? I
Speaker 1: read somewhere that the drones use don't actually stop. It's
Speaker 1: not like they land and deliver something and then take
Speaker 1: off again. They drop the goods. I mean almost like parachuters.
Speaker 1: Can you describe what that looks like. They weigh about
Speaker 1: forty pounds each and they launch and land only at
Speaker 1: our distribution centers. So this means that when we receive
Speaker 1: an order. That order will come via SMS or via
Speaker 1: WhatsApp or via a phone call to our fulfillment center.
Speaker 1: We have trained pharmacists who can take a product, for example,
Speaker 1: say two units of blood loaded into a package. That
Speaker 1: package is loaded into the airplane. The airplane is set
Speaker 1: onto a launcher, and once the flight computer has booted
Speaker 1: up and is ready to fly the aircraft, we launched
Speaker 1: the aircraft. It actually accelerates from zero to about eighty
Speaker 1: kilometers an hour and about a third of a second,
Speaker 1: so really really fast. It will fly out to the
Speaker 1: GPS coordinates of the hospital or primary care facility that
Speaker 1: placed the order. And then when we deliver, we actually
Speaker 1: descend from our cruise altitude of about four hundred feet
Speaker 1: to somewhere between thirty and six feet, and we deliver
Speaker 1: into a mailbox, which is really just a made up
Speaker 1: rectangle on the ground. It's the size of a couple
Speaker 1: parking spaces. So as long as the primary care facility
Speaker 1: or hospital has a couple parking spaces, whether that's actual
Speaker 1: parking spaces or a little grassy patch or even you know,
Speaker 1: for example, in the hospital in North Carolina, we deliver
Speaker 1: onto the rooftop of one of our hospitals. They can
Speaker 1: kind of set up their mailbox wherever they like, and
Speaker 1: then they know that the product is always going to
Speaker 1: be delivered into that mailbox. We use a really simple
Speaker 1: paper parachute attached to the package to make sure that
Speaker 1: the package comes gently to the ground, and that enables
Speaker 1: us to basically provide this autonomous service without ever having
Speaker 1: untrained humans come close to the vehicles. And does it
Speaker 1: ever fail well, it plane operates in the real worhold.
Speaker 1: And what one thing I've learned is like nothing is
Speaker 1: a one hundred percent in the real world. So certainly,
Speaker 1: like you, especially in the early days of the service,
Speaker 1: we had certain instances where the packaging land quite in
Speaker 1: the mailbox. We've had instances where the plane will encounter
Speaker 1: emission failure and have to turn around and come home,
Speaker 1: and then you know, we'll use another plane to do
Speaker 1: that delivery maybe fifteen minutes later. All logistics kind of
Speaker 1: operates on percentages, and that things one hundred percent. We
Speaker 1: guaranteed our customer ninety six percent service uptime, and we've
Speaker 1: actually achieved something like ninety nine percent service uptime, so
Speaker 1: way higher than any kind of traditional logistics. You know,
Speaker 1: these kinds of vehicles can operate more reliably than motorcycles
Speaker 1: and cars, and they can operate in kinds of weather
Speaker 1: and conditions that actually traditional logistic systems don't operate in
Speaker 1: at all, and that is one of the main value
Speaker 1: propositions of this kind of technology. In the US, there's
Speaker 1: I'm afraid drones have a negative connotation. They don't make
Speaker 1: people think of, you know, life saving technology. They make
Speaker 1: people think of military strikes. Has that been a problem
Speaker 1: for you when while moving these ideas to North Carolina
Speaker 1: and proposing their use in other places? Do you find
Speaker 1: Americans are more resistant to the use of drones and delivery?
Speaker 1: That's a complicated question. I mean, you know, if you
Speaker 1: think drones have a bad connotation in the US, just
Speaker 1: imagine where they've actually been used by the US government
Speaker 1: to kill people. Like those countries have an even more
Speaker 1: negative connotation. But yeah, absolutely, I think that this general
Speaker 1: technology has been thought of as technology that kills people
Speaker 1: rather than technology that saves people's lives, and that is
Speaker 1: part of the narrative that we are trying to rewrite.
Speaker 1: The reality is that autonomous systems of this kind can
Speaker 1: have a huge impact in equalizing access, building logistics systems
Speaker 1: that serves all humans equally and ensuring that where you
Speaker 1: live does not determine whether you live. It's just going
Speaker 1: to take time for people to see that other half
Speaker 1: of the coin. And you know, in Rwanda and Ghana today,
Speaker 1: the community acceptance for this national service is through the
Speaker 1: roof because most people have a cousin or a family
Speaker 1: member or a friend who has received a product and
Speaker 1: is perhaps even alive because this service is available and
Speaker 1: it's pretty simple. And by the way, they don't call
Speaker 1: them drones. They just call them sky ambulances. Sky ambulance
Speaker 1: sounds a lot nicer than drone act, but it's also
Speaker 1: more specific to what it's actually doing. I think we
Speaker 1: actually tend to call things. There's a joke among roboticists
Speaker 1: that there are no useful robots because once something is useful,
Speaker 1: you just call it the thing that it does, rather
Speaker 1: than a robot. So for example, like a dish washer
Speaker 1: is a dishwasher or not, like you know, a robot
Speaker 1: that watches your dishes, And I think the same is true.
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, we don't really talk about drones. And
Speaker 1: in fact, I think one really important thing to understand
Speaker 1: about zip line is that none of our customers care
Speaker 1: about drones. All they care about is does something go
Speaker 1: from point A to point the fast enough to save
Speaker 1: someone's life. Recently, you've done a deal with Walmart. Have
Speaker 1: you created a partnership with Walmart? Tell me about that?
Speaker 1: Is that do you have the idea of expanding this
Speaker 1: beyond medical supplies to other things? Is that The purpose
Speaker 1: of it. What we're doing with Walmart right now is
Speaker 1: Walmart actually operates, you know, pharmacies that are closer to
Speaker 1: a lot of the most rural, vulnerable populations in the
Speaker 1: US of any company in the country. And so what
Speaker 1: we're focused on doing with Walmart is extending access to
Speaker 1: their pharmacy as well as specific health and wellness products
Speaker 1: directly to the home, so that people, if they need something,
Speaker 1: they can order it and get it delivered instantly, as
Speaker 1: opposed to have to go to a pharmacy, especially in
Speaker 1: the time of a pandemic. Can you deliver in the
Speaker 1: same way to somebody's house, I mean, to you know,
Speaker 1: letting a little parachute float down into their front yard.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a good question and actually something that
Speaker 1: we'll have you know, we'll be making some announcements on
Speaker 1: over the coming year. Our goal is to serve every
Speaker 1: single GPS coordinates, every single home in all the countries
Speaker 1: where we operate. You know, today we can serve some
Speaker 1: of them, not all of them, but that percentage of
Speaker 1: homes that we serve will increase over time. Is there
Speaker 1: an issue in your business in drone delivery of privacy
Speaker 1: in the way there was with telemedicine that things that
Speaker 1: used to be one to one or things that you know,
Speaker 1: conversations that used to be absolutely privileged are now recorded
Speaker 1: somewhere or available to other people. Have you run into
Speaker 1: that as a barrier in what you do as well?
Speaker 1: Luckily on the privacy front, we really just fit in
Speaker 1: the same way that other logistics systems would fit in.
Speaker 1: We're certified in the same way that you know, our
Speaker 1: motorcycle or a courier service that was delivering something quickly
Speaker 1: would be certified. That's actually not something that is like
Speaker 1: new or requires us to to you know, reinvent the
Speaker 1: wheel keller. Can you remember the first time you realized
Speaker 1: that this system was going to work when in real
Speaker 1: life a drone took off and it delivered a medical
Speaker 1: product to someone who needed it. Can you can you
Speaker 1: remember that? That was, Like I certain experiences are probably
Speaker 1: indelibly you know, marked on your on your brain, and
Speaker 1: that's certainly one of them. I mean, I think the
Speaker 1: important context is when we were starting to build zip line,
Speaker 1: so many experts in global public health told us that
Speaker 1: this was a stupid idea and that it was never
Speaker 1: going to work. And it was in fact the governments.
Speaker 1: It was the ministers of health who kind of helped
Speaker 1: change our mind and say like no, no, no, like
Speaker 1: this will work, Like let's focus, let's you know, let's
Speaker 1: let's go see if we can deliver, for example, just blood,
Speaker 1: which is what we started doing in Rwanda. And I remember,
Speaker 1: you know, when we actually launched, the President of Rwanda came.
Speaker 1: He was one of the early champions for us getting
Speaker 1: started there. He launched the first aircraft. It went made
Speaker 1: a delivery, and I remember as we were sitting waiting
Speaker 1: for the plane to come back and land at the
Speaker 1: distribution center, like a hundred kids had gathered on the fence.
Speaker 1: We have a fence around our distribution centers, and there
Speaker 1: were one hundred kids on the fence kind of like
Speaker 1: looking in waiting with us to watch this plane coming
Speaker 1: inland and he just casually pointed at all of them
Speaker 1: and he said, those are the future engineers of Rwanda,
Speaker 1: And it really made me realize that this is, you know,
Speaker 1: in some ways, this is bigger than healthcare. This is
Speaker 1: this is building a world where people who have been
Speaker 1: left behind by traditional economies, left behind by traditional kinds
Speaker 1: of logistics systems, are actually going to have a chance
Speaker 1: to lead the world. And by the way, you know,
Speaker 1: these kinds of jobs, these kinds of startups and new
Speaker 1: ideas and new innovations are going to create jobs and opportunities,
Speaker 1: and we've found I mean, I think the most important
Speaker 1: thing about zip line to understand is that the superheroes
Speaker 1: behind this story are the flight engineers and flight operators
Speaker 1: who operate all of our distribution centers across the world,
Speaker 1: and those teams are one hundred percent local. What are
Speaker 1: a few things that listeners could do to help you
Speaker 1: solve this problem, in other words, to encourage medical innovation
Speaker 1: to bring these kinds of delivery systems to their own communities.
Speaker 1: What do you suggest that people do You know, that's
Speaker 1: an awesome question and one that I rarely get. In fact,
Speaker 1: I don't know if I've ever had someone asked that.
Speaker 1: One is that I do think people should demand more
Speaker 1: from their healthcare systems. Healthcare systems that really survive and
Speaker 1: thrive are going to have to figure out how to
Speaker 1: provide care in a convenient, cost effective way closer to
Speaker 1: where patients live. You know. Another thing is that we're
Speaker 1: a global company, and we're really proud of what we
Speaker 1: get to do outside the US. But as a US Citi,
Speaker 1: isn't it If I were to speak for a second,
Speaker 1: I would say, it is so so important that we
Speaker 1: not allow ourselves to fall behind in pre new areas
Speaker 1: of technology. Reason that we live in the richest country
Speaker 1: today is that our grandparents did an amazing job of
Speaker 1: moving really quickly on things like cars and airplanes and
Speaker 1: satellites in the space race, you know. And the reality
Speaker 1: is that there are a lot of industries that are
Speaker 1: those corollaries today, but I think the US is not
Speaker 1: pursuing them as aggressively, and in many cases we're allowing
Speaker 1: regulation to actually hinder the adoption of that technology in
Speaker 1: the US, and other countries are not wasting time. China,
Speaker 1: for example, is moving really really quickly when it comes
Speaker 1: to things like nuclear fusion and quantum computing and drone delivery.
Speaker 1: We have to realize that if we don't innovate other
Speaker 1: as well, and we won't necessarily lead the world forever.
Speaker 1: Are there books or articles that you've read, other things
Speaker 1: to read or watch that you can suggest for people
Speaker 1: who are who are interested in pursuing this subject further.
Speaker 1: You know, drone delivery is a little trickier because it's
Speaker 1: it's just so nascent that you know, I don't think
Speaker 1: the books have been really written yet, but I can say,
Speaker 1: you know, this broader trend that I'm describing of really
Speaker 1: understanding the context of where growth is happening in the world.
Speaker 1: I know two books that I deeply love. Factfulness by
Speaker 1: Hans and Ola Rosaling is an amazing book that just
Speaker 1: kind of explores like, what are the basic facts of
Speaker 1: the world we live in and where growth is occurring
Speaker 1: and where people live and what like a more equal
Speaker 1: future would look like. And then Enlightenment Now by Stephen
Speaker 1: Pinker is just I think one of the most important
Speaker 1: books probably for every human on earth to read and
Speaker 1: definitely speaks to a lot of these trends I'm talking
Speaker 1: about about, like what would a hopeful future look like
Speaker 1: where humanity is becoming more equal over time rather than
Speaker 1: the opposite. Kelo Renado is the CEO and founder of
Speaker 1: zip Line International. To learn more about drone delivery and
Speaker 1: remote medical access, please check out the links in our
Speaker 1: show notes. Salvabill. Senior producer is Jocelyn Frank. Research and
Speaker 1: booking by Lisa Donne. Catherine Girardo is our managing producer.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Mia Lobell. Solvable is a production
Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show, please remember
Speaker 1: to share, rate, and review it. It really helps us
Speaker 1: get the word out. You can find Pushkin podcasts wherever
Speaker 1: you listen, including on the iHeartRadio app and Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Weisberg.