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Speaker 1: What city is this? One of the four inquired. Frank

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Speaker 1: had difficulty guessing the speaker's gender with any certainty. Its clothes,

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Speaker 1: some of which were sown to and through its skin,

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Speaker 1: hid its private parts, and there was nothing in the

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Speaker 1: dregs of its voice, or in its wilfully disfigured features

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Speaker 1: that offered the least clue when it spoke. The hooks

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Speaker 1: that transfixed the flaps of its eyes and were wed

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Speaker 1: by an intricate system of chains, passed through flesh and bone,

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Speaker 1: alike to similar hooks through the lower lip, were teased

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Speaker 1: by the motion, exposing the glistening meat underneath. I asked

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Speaker 1: you a question, dear, and you see the figure beside

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Speaker 1: the first speaker demanded. Its voice, unlike that of its companion,

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Speaker 1: was light and breathy, the voice of an excited girl.

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Speaker 1: Every inch of its head had been tattooed with an

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Speaker 1: intricate grid, and at every intersection of horizontal and vertical

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Speaker 1: axes a jeweled pin driven through to the bone. Its

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Speaker 1: tongue was similarly decorated. Do you even know who we are? Welcome?

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Speaker 1: Stuff to blow your mind? A production of I Heart Radios.

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Speaker 1: How stuff works? Hey, you welcome? To stuff to blow

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Speaker 1: your mind. My name is Robert Lamb, and I'm Joe

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Speaker 1: McCormick and Robert. I guess you've been reading Clive Barker, right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. Yes. Our cold open is is was a

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Speaker 1: passage from the nineteen eighties six novella The hell Bound

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Speaker 1: Heart by Clive Barker, which he himself adapted and directed

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Speaker 1: in seven into the horror film we all know as

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Speaker 1: Hell Raiser. Wait a minute, there was just one year

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Speaker 1: gap in between writing the novella and making the movie. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Clive Barker was on a roll in the in the

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Speaker 1: late eighties, like he was. I mean, he's still on

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Speaker 1: a roll. He's one of these uh, these creators. It

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Speaker 1: really has has not visibly slown down. Um, says Stephen King.

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Speaker 1: Quote from that year he said, I've seen the future

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Speaker 1: of horror, and did is Clive Parker? Yeah, yeah, quote

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Speaker 1: quote the King. I think that that that quote was

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Speaker 1: actually in the trailer for for Hell Razor, the film,

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Speaker 1: as was I Am Pain? No, No, I think he doesn't.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't declare that he is pain until three year

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Speaker 1: possibly four. Um. I'm imagining a future crossover sequel. It's

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Speaker 1: like Jetson's Meet the flint Stones, but it's Judge Dread

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Speaker 1: meets Pinhead and they just alternate back and forth with

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Speaker 1: I am the Law and I um but that that

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Speaker 1: actually sounds like a great matchup. I actually I would

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Speaker 1: be all surprised if it hasn't been done or at

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Speaker 1: least pitch, because Judge Dread is thrown down with like

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Speaker 1: Alien before, and I think he's met Batman. Pinhead's been

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Speaker 1: in a number of comic books. You could see the

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Speaker 1: the more nuanced side coming out of each because you

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Speaker 1: discovered that in small ways, Judge Dread is also pain

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Speaker 1: and Pinhead is also the Law. Yeah. Um, so I

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Speaker 1: want to, you know, wax nostalgic for a moment here.

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Speaker 1: I didn't get into hell Razor movies until probably not

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Speaker 1: because I was too young for them really prior to that, wait,

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Speaker 1: how old was that? Though? Oh, don't make me do

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Speaker 1: math jo, but I was. I was like in junior

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Speaker 1: higher or so uh in. And by that point, the

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Speaker 1: first three films were already out and Doug Bradley's Pinhead

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Speaker 1: was already cemented as a as a horror icon. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean he's up there with like Freddie and Jason

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Speaker 1: at that point. Yeah, like in the Simpsons tree House

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Speaker 1: of Horror episodes of the Shinning episode is so good,

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Speaker 1: Pinhead is one of the horror icons that drags Homer

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Speaker 1: out of the refrigerator. Oh yeah, it's like it's like

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Speaker 1: Jason Freddie Pinhead and then just some werewolf or something.

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Speaker 1: I think. So, yeah, it's like a quick scene, but

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Speaker 1: like already by that point, I think it had been

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Speaker 1: decided that this, uh, this this, this creature, this entity

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Speaker 1: had a role in the Halloween pantheon of Hollywood. So

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Speaker 1: you read the book before you saw the movie. Um,

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Speaker 1: I think I read the book after I saw the movie.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading it on a school trip. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's a it's it's short, it's a novella. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was really it was really impressive at the time.

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Speaker 1: As our colde open illustrates, it has a slightly different feel.

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Speaker 1: It's the film hell Raiser is essentially the hell Bound Heart.

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Speaker 1: It is, you know, Barker's own adaptation of it. But

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Speaker 1: at the same time there are differences, and one of

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Speaker 1: the key differences is, uh, this character of Pinhead, the

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Speaker 1: hell Priest, whatever you want to call it, is just

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Speaker 1: called lead Cinembyte and the first hell Raiser that the

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Speaker 1: role played by Doug Bradley in the novella it is

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Speaker 1: it has a slightly different flare to it. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: was reading some things about the production, and it seems

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Speaker 1: to me that the reason Doug Bradley's pinhead became such

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Speaker 1: an icon in the movie had to do with the

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Speaker 1: practical necessities of filmmaking. And again it was something about

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Speaker 1: like character, Like the other Cinabytes that appear in the

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Speaker 1: film would have been given more dialogue, but they're makeup

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Speaker 1: effects didn't allow it, right, because you have like the

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Speaker 1: chatter and the butter being Cinobytes and the butterball butterball

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Speaker 1: but being similar. But but yeah, that makes sense that

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Speaker 1: the makeup prevented them from speaking. And Doug Bradley could speak,

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Speaker 1: though he couldn't walk around very well. Apparently he had

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Speaker 1: these black contact lenses in that made it hard for

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Speaker 1: him to see, and he was afraid of tripping over

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Speaker 1: the skirts of his of Cinabyte robe, so he didn't

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Speaker 1: move very easily. But he could talk, and so he

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Speaker 1: could say things like save your tears, it's a waste

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Speaker 1: of good suffering. Yeah, he has a very commanding voice,

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Speaker 1: whereas in the original develo, the character that would become

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Speaker 1: Pinhead is described as this excited girl. And then the

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Speaker 1: Cinobytes themselves come off They still come off his his

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Speaker 1: grotesque in their own way, but they're more and they're

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Speaker 1: more androgynous for starters. And then there is this there's more,

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Speaker 1: this sense that they are not as demonic as they

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Speaker 1: are justist other worldly, like they have lived in another

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Speaker 1: realm of the senses for so long, uh, and that

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Speaker 1: they just don't have anything in common with with human

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Speaker 1: sense perception anymore. Right, they are they are explorers that

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Speaker 1: go beyond the boundaries of pleasure and pain. And that's

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Speaker 1: a lot of what we're gonna be talking about today

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Speaker 1: when we get to the science portion of today's episode.

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Speaker 1: But I know you're not done talking about hell Raiser, right,

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Speaker 1: Oh no, And I do want to just remind everybody

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Speaker 1: as far as The hell Bound Heart goes, you can

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Speaker 1: you can find it for yourself on Amazon or wherever

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Speaker 1: you get your book in all formats, including a dollar

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Speaker 1: ninety nine e book and both an audio book production

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Speaker 1: and a full blown like audio play production, so you

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Speaker 1: have no excuse not to go in and grab a

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Speaker 1: copy of it if you want to check it out.

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Speaker 1: I also highly recommend the books of Blood. Uh. Those

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Speaker 1: are some There's some really great short stories in those collections. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I've always been a Clive Barker fan. I

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Speaker 1: haven't read everything he's written, but it's just an unmatched creativity.

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Speaker 1: They're both on the written written page, but behind the

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Speaker 1: camera and visual art as well. Just before we came

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Speaker 1: in here, I was having a conversation with our colleague

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Speaker 1: Ben Bolan of stuff they don't want you to know

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Speaker 1: and ridiculous history, and he was asking what my favorite

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Speaker 1: Clive Barker was, and I had to admit I have

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Speaker 1: not read any. For some reason, I just never gotten

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Speaker 1: into Barker. He was very surprised because he knows I

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Speaker 1: like horror fiction, but uh, I don't know. For some reason,

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Speaker 1: I just never went there, Maybe because when I I

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Speaker 1: don't know. When I first saw the movie Hell Raiser,

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Speaker 1: I think this was like my freshman year of college.

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Speaker 1: I found it actually very depressing. Well, I found it

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Speaker 1: it was full of interesting imagery. I thought it was

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Speaker 1: actually kind of original and imaginative, but something about the

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Speaker 1: world it it pictured it seemed very bleak to me.

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Speaker 1: It was like a world where nothing is good and

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Speaker 1: everything goes to hell and there's nothing to care about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a bleak, brooding film. And and I can see

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Speaker 1: why I was especially into it as like a brooding

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Speaker 1: junior high student and as a you know, a teen

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Speaker 1: spoke to you then yeah, I mean then also it

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Speaker 1: it felt you know, it's a cool wid a rebel.

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Speaker 1: I think too, because like Stephen King, I was stupid

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Speaker 1: into Stephen King at the time. And Stephen King has

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Speaker 1: certainly be you know, graphic, but but Barker always felt weirder,

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Speaker 1: more counterculture in a way that really resonated with me.

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Speaker 1: And you know, there's probably no better way to push

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Speaker 1: back against small town southern Baptist upbringing than to to

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Speaker 1: turn to and you know, the explosively creative worlds of

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Speaker 1: an openly gay British horror writer. Well, and I will

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Speaker 1: say it is uh despite its flaws. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: will talk about how I just rewatched the movie Uh,

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Speaker 1: and it did not match up with my memories at all.

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Speaker 1: I found it. I have to admit I found it

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Speaker 1: rather funny upon rewatching it, especially a lot of the

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Speaker 1: line delivery by the Cinabites and it's over the top

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Speaker 1: ponderousness that like, uh, there were a whole there was

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Speaker 1: a lot of unintentional laughter. But I will say it

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Speaker 1: is still a pretty imaginative concert up. It was like

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Speaker 1: very original for its time. Let's now that we're speaking

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Speaker 1: on on Pinhead's voice in the movie, let's have a

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Speaker 1: quick uh splash from the trailer will tell your soul part.

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Speaker 1: That's just a sample though, because most of the original

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Speaker 1: theatrical trailer is screaming. Okay, uh yeah, So I guess

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Speaker 1: should we briefly discuss the plot of the movie. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And for anybody who hasn't listened to a movie episode

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Speaker 1: we've done before, we will get to you know, a

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Speaker 1: lot more science and interpretation of of this particular you know,

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Speaker 1: cinematic installment. But but first we do need to remind

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Speaker 1: everybody about what's up in Hell Racer, because it's easy forget,

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Speaker 1: especially if you've seen a lot of the sequels. Uh

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Speaker 1: and and if you've seen some of the later sequels

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Speaker 1: then then truly God help you. But the original plot

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Speaker 1: line goes like this, do you have a creepy uncle? Well,

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Speaker 1: did your creepy uncle ever say, have an affair with

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Speaker 1: your mom and then use an antique puzzle box to

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Speaker 1: open a dimensional rift in your grandma's house, summoning a

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Speaker 1: weird sect of transdimensional Cincinnats in your uncle's quest for

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Speaker 1: new extremes of pleasure. Well, that uncle is Frank Cotton,

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Speaker 1: and yes, he's dragged away to the realm of the Cinabytes,

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Speaker 1: so the order of the gash, and after a while

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Speaker 1: manages to escape in a much reduced state um and

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Speaker 1: works out a plot to reclaim his body. And that's

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Speaker 1: essentially the plot line of hell Racers. Right, So you've

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Speaker 1: got your core elements of this mysterious puzzle box that

191
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Speaker 1: is just a normal kind of cube with some paintings

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Speaker 1: on it. But if you manipulate it in the right way,

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Speaker 1: press here and turn there and that kind of stuff,

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Speaker 1: it starts opening up. And then once it opens up,

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Speaker 1: a familiar series of events unfolds where lights shine in

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Speaker 1: through you know, cracks in the walls and stuff, uh,

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Speaker 1: chains with hooks at the ends of them shoot out

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Speaker 1: of the walls and grab you. And then the centabytes

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Speaker 1: show up and they're these people usually with like shaved

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Speaker 1: heads or just generally weird heads. Usually something has happened

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Speaker 1: to their head. They're wearing black leather robes as if

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Speaker 1: they're a combination of the there's sort of like S

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Speaker 1: and M priests, and they show up and they're like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's time to take you away to a dimension beyond sensation.

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Speaker 1: It's time to experience pain and pleasure indivisible. Right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and they're you know, they're they're very much there's a

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Speaker 1: boundary confusion with them, right, because they're both ghastly and

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Speaker 1: beautiful in their own way. They're erotic and grotesque at

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Speaker 1: the same time. Yeah. And the suggestion, I think it's

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Speaker 1: explored much more in the book is that these creatures

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Speaker 1: are there part of some weird, esoteric, other dimensional religious

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Speaker 1: order that worships the exploration of the extremes of sensation

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Speaker 1: right then, and so that they've gotten to the point

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Speaker 1: where where they can no longer tell the difference between

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Speaker 1: pleasure and pain. It's just sort of like experiences to

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Speaker 1: the max all the time of whatever valence possible. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's more it's not like I'm gonna pull your

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Speaker 1: skin off. Uh, It's more like, oh, I'm I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: I'm rude, I'm being rude. I should pull your skin off.

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Speaker 1: I should be a good host, and this is the

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Speaker 1: natural thing to do. Yuh, though I feel like that.

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Speaker 1: I think that's more there in the book, which again

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Speaker 1: I haven't read, But in the movie it does come

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Speaker 1: to feel more like they're there to punish you sometimes.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if this conceit about them just being

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Speaker 1: sort of experiment ers is really consistent in the film now.

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Speaker 1: I mean, even in the first film, which is which

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Speaker 1: is certainly the truest to the original source material, even

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Speaker 1: in that you can tell that that Barker is leaning

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Speaker 1: more into the idea of them as movie monsters, though

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Speaker 1: it's still it's still Clive Barker's movie monsters, and Clive

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Speaker 1: Barker is one of those creators who has always loved

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Speaker 1: his monsters most of all, you know. But but still

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Speaker 1: even in the film, you know, the cinemabytes are not

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Speaker 1: the most important aspect of the plot. They're not the

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Speaker 1: central antagonist. Even our heroine uh Kur Steve Cotton and

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Speaker 1: her father Larry Cotton aren't as central to the plot

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Speaker 1: as Frank the the individual who just described the uncle,

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Speaker 1: and Chris Kirstie's mom Julia. It's ultimately about their dark

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Speaker 1: love affair that ultimately transcends the boundaries of life and death. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, they're the characters at the heart of all this,

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Speaker 1: and and they're the ones whose desires we most understand

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Speaker 1: and even on some level sympathize with, even though they

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Speaker 1: are you know, dark, desperate and depressing characters. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: think the deal is Frank is just this guy who's

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Speaker 1: seen it all. He's had every hedonistic pleasure of the

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Speaker 1: flesh possible. He's he's you know, he's beyond good and evil.

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Speaker 1: He has no morality left. He's just he's just like

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Speaker 1: trying to to seek the next highest possible sensation. Uh.

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Speaker 1: And he's usually got a knife out because he's just

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Speaker 1: that kind of guy. Right. And then Julia, on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, played by the the excellent Claire Higgins in

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Speaker 1: this she's you know, by and large, the best performance

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Speaker 1: in the film. There is one scene where I don't

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Speaker 1: know if they did this on purpose, but the way

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Speaker 1: they did her makeup and her hair, she looks exactly

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Speaker 1: like David Bowie and his Aladdin sane persona. Oh I

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Speaker 1: I didn't notice that. I have to look back at it.

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Speaker 1: But but yeah, she's wonderful in it, and and in

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Speaker 1: the same way her character. Her character is also like

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Speaker 1: trapped in a life of of tedium and boredom. Like

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Speaker 1: her husband is this boring guy who watched this boxing

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Speaker 1: on television and and she just seems to be, you know,

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Speaker 1: putting up with him. Uh. And and so thus comes

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Speaker 1: her attraction to Frank. And even when Frank comes back

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Speaker 1: from the dead uh in this you know, grotesque body. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, she still ends up helping him. Oh and

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Speaker 1: of course helping him involves like killing a bunch of people.

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Speaker 1: I think so he can It's not exactly clear he

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Speaker 1: can basically drink their blood and thus reconstitute his original body. Yeah, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a little vague, and I like that it's vague.

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Speaker 1: You know, weren't really sure exactly what the necromancy is

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Speaker 1: of all this, but that that is the thing. Frank

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Speaker 1: is essentially a necromancer. Uh and and has these these powers. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, looking back at the film, it's you really

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Speaker 1: can't overstate the importance of Frank and Juliet. They are

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Speaker 1: the core of the film. They are its main characters,

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Speaker 1: and they are its main monsters. Yeah. The cinembytes show

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Speaker 1: up mostly in the third act as a kind of

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Speaker 1: almost as a kind of d S X machina. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: which is fitting because they are literally coming out of

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Speaker 1: the machine, right d S xbox. And let's say a

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Speaker 1: few other things I want to say about the film

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Speaker 1: just rewatching it. Um, the music is fine, it's a

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Speaker 1: bit dramatic, but I've long wanted to see a cut

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Speaker 1: of it with the original score by post and cut

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Speaker 1: Industrial Act Coil. This was the late Peter Christofferson of

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Speaker 1: who was also in Throbbing Gristle, and the late John

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Speaker 1: Balance was also in Psychic TV, so that they had

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Speaker 1: conducted the original put together the original score for the film,

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Speaker 1: and the replacement score that's more traditional and cinematic was

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Speaker 1: supposedly a condition of additional funding that Barker Is eaved

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Speaker 1: in order to finish the special effects in the film.

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Speaker 1: Uh So, I would my musical taste lean far more

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Speaker 1: Coil than they do traditional cinematic score. So, uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: when what I've heard of it, it sounds really interesting.

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Speaker 1: So that's that's that's one thought I have on it. Coil.

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Speaker 1: If you're not familiar with them, they were. They were

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Speaker 1: a big influence on the likes of say Trent resner

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Speaker 1: Um and uh and of course Clive Barker was also

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Speaker 1: an influence on Trent Resuer as well. Yeah, I'd say

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Speaker 1: Nine Inch Nails is pretty thoroughly cinembyte music. Yeah, especially

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Speaker 1: the early stuff. Let's see what else about this film, Oh,

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Speaker 1: the costumes and the practical effects I think hold up

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Speaker 1: very well. Yeah, they do. And I think this is

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Speaker 1: this is definitely a film where you look at it

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Speaker 1: and you I'm impressed by just how ambitious it really was,

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Speaker 1: perhaps overly ambitious, especially given the small budget and the

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Speaker 1: fact that Barker was, you know, adapting his own work

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Speaker 1: here directing it as well, and this was his He'd

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Speaker 1: done some screenwriting, but he had not directed anything previously.

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Speaker 1: And it's really you know, it's they go for not

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Speaker 1: only they have the cinabytes in there and all these effects,

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Speaker 1: but also like a regeneration scene and additional demon monsters

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Speaker 1: that you know, if you were being like maybe a

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Speaker 1: little more careful with your budget, you might say, well,

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Speaker 1: do we need this monster? We already have this monster.

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Speaker 1: Maybe we can actually cut two whole monsters in two

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Speaker 1: big practical effects from the film and use those funds elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: But uh, still, you know it it mostly comes together.

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Speaker 1: I'm not quite sure the purpose served by the monster

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Speaker 1: that's referred to as the Engineer, which doesn't look anything

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Speaker 1: like an engineer. Instead, it's like a big sort of

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Speaker 1: larva that crawls down the hallway with a scary mouth

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Speaker 1: on the bottom part, chasing after people. Yeah, it's that's

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Speaker 1: something that the engineers mentioned in the novella, but it's

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Speaker 1: more it's like a being of light or something. It's

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Speaker 1: it's not a monster. So that like that, I feel

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Speaker 1: like comes off a little confusing in the picture, like

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Speaker 1: what is this and how's it connected with everything? Now?

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Speaker 1: I don't want to rag on the film too much,

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Speaker 1: but I will say that one of the things that

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Speaker 1: was funniest about it to me is that Pinhead, even

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Speaker 1: in the first movie, I mean, I think he gets

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Speaker 1: even more like this as the movies go on. Pinhead

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Speaker 1: gets increasingly frettified, Like he becomes like a wise cracking,

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Speaker 1: you know, making jokes at the camera kind of Freddy

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Speaker 1: Krueger character. But even in the first movie, almost everything

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Speaker 1: he says is this like threatening, lee pretentious kind of

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Speaker 1: line that could be a quote on the VHS box cover.

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Speaker 1: It's all stuff like will tear your soul apart, or

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Speaker 1: the box you opened it, we came, or of course, uh,

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Speaker 1: the the inimitable I am pain. Yeah yeah yeah. Like Freddie,

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Speaker 1: he has a lot of catch phrases and sort of

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Speaker 1: quote ready samples. Uh. And I've heard him in a

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Speaker 1: number of different DJ nixes as well, throwing a little

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Speaker 1: pinhead right. Uh. He also reminds me a bit of

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Speaker 1: nineties pro wrestlers in that regard. You know, he's like

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Speaker 1: the rock you know, he has the Rocks. I guess

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Speaker 1: more post nineties, but still, you know, he has his

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Speaker 1: his catchphrases that he lashes out with. You can imagine

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Speaker 1: macho man Randy Savage saying the box you opened it,

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Speaker 1: we came. I actually just learned that Doug Bradley serves

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Speaker 1: as the authority figure in the indie British occult themed

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Speaker 1: wrestling promotion Blackcraft Wrestling. I don't know what that means. Well,

356
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Speaker 1: look it up, beild it exists. Um. It's like clearly

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Speaker 1: he's doing kind of like a he's not in a

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Speaker 1: wrestling ring. He's like showing up like they're doing a

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Speaker 1: green screen thing and he's you know, making matches and whatnot.

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Speaker 1: But it's it's Doug Bradley being Doug Bradley. But like

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Speaker 1: he officiates a match by saying you're suffering, will be

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Speaker 1: legendary even in hell. Now I will say that in

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Speaker 1: the I think it's by the fourth win. He does

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Speaker 1: have a line about pain that that is I think

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Speaker 1: it's actually pretty good, where he says, uh, quote what

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Speaker 1: you think of as pain is only a shadow. Pain

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Speaker 1: has a face. Allow me to show it to you.

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Speaker 1: Allow me to show it to you, and uh and

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Speaker 1: like that that line I think is pretty good. Like

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Speaker 1: he gets at some of the the intangible aspects of

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Speaker 1: pain and the how difficult it is to understand another

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Speaker 1: individual's pain or relate your own. But of course this

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Speaker 1: is and this is from hell Raiser Inferno. Then he

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Speaker 1: goes on to say, uh, uh, gentleman, I am pain,

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Speaker 1: and he kind of he kind of ruins the moment.

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Speaker 1: You know, it can go so far. He can't help

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Speaker 1: but go for the catchphrase, ladies and gentlemen, I am pain.

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Speaker 1: So in summary, uh, this is what I'll say about

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Speaker 1: how Razor. Uh. It's a it's a film I have

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Speaker 1: a lot of nostalgia for and having rewatched it in

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Speaker 1: the past, week, I'd say that that more things work

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Speaker 1: than don't work. And then it's still like it's it's

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Speaker 1: astounding that that that everyone is able to put this

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Speaker 1: film together and then ultimately, like clearly it resonated, even

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Speaker 1: though like my personal taste, I like the cinobites of

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00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 1: the novella more like Pinhead worked, like Pinhead became a staple,

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Speaker 1: like Pinhead is part of American popular culture now. A

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Speaker 1: couple of years ago I went through the process. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, I decided I needed to do this, but

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Speaker 1: I watched all of the Hell Raiser sequels. I don't

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Speaker 1: think that's a journey people need to go on. There.

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Speaker 1: There are fleeting pleasures throughout them, like Part three has

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Speaker 1: some pretty funny stuff. Part four has some funny moments.

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Speaker 1: Part three is kind of like peak Freddie uh hell Raised,

395
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Speaker 1: like they realized, like, oh, this is what we've created.

396
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Speaker 1: We've created this this this this horror creature that you

397
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Speaker 1: know the masses are into. Let's give him the film

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Speaker 1: that this core character deserves. Of course, Part four is

399
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Speaker 1: Pinhead goes to Space, which is I don't know, it's

400
00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,440
Speaker 1: hard to sniff it that. Yeah, that that film is

401
00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,879
Speaker 1: notoriously a mess, but then it also just has so

402
00:21:42,920 --> 00:21:46,800
Speaker 1: many like crazy things in it it's hard to completely

403
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Speaker 1: dismiss it. I kept wanting to see I think I

404
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: may have said this on the show before, but Rachel

405
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Speaker 1: and I have frequently talked about how there needs to

406
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Speaker 1: be a crossover again, franchise crossover, but not with Judge Shred.

407
00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 1: This should be Hell Raisor, and then the air bud

408
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:05,720
Speaker 1: sequels they cross over. So you've got like Golden Retriever

409
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Speaker 1: puppies and they're playing with the box and it's called

410
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Speaker 1: hell Buddies, and so the cinebytes come out and they're

411
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Speaker 1: ready to do all their hooks and stuff, but then

412
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Speaker 1: they're conquered by the cuteness of the puppies. So it's like,

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Speaker 1: I am all right, Well on that note, let's take

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Speaker 1: our first break, and when we come back, we're going

415
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Speaker 1: to talk about puzzle boxes. Than alright, we're back, alright,

416
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Speaker 1: So we know that Hell Razor starts with a mysterious

417
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Speaker 1: puzzle box. It's this box that, uh, it can be opened,

418
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Speaker 1: but how you open it is apparently not obvious, and

419
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Speaker 1: people just fiddle around with it until they figure out

420
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Speaker 1: the secret, and then they end up unleashing the hooks,

421
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Speaker 1: the chains, the cinabytes and so forth. Yeah, the first

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Speaker 1: film and all subsequent films, they are generally gonna be

423
00:22:52,440 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 1: some scenes with somebody fiddling with the box. And it

424
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,160
Speaker 1: doesn't seem to It seems to adhere to unreal physics,

425
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 1: which is fitting. It is a magical box that opens

426
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 1: a magical doorway through which magical beings then enter um.

427
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 1: So you know, I don't take any issue with that

428
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,199
Speaker 1: at all, But uh, of course, in the idea itself

429
00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,520
Speaker 1: is just irresistible. We love myths about boxes that should

430
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: not be opened, or the idea of a box that

431
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 1: resists opening is also tremendous as well, an enclosure born

432
00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,360
Speaker 1: of human ingenuity that must be solved via human ingenuity

433
00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,480
Speaker 1: as well. Oh yeah, I mean, I think it's a

434
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,720
Speaker 1: wonderful conceit for opening a story like this, that there

435
00:23:30,800 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: is this thing it requires effort. It suggests that there's

436
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:38,160
Speaker 1: kind of a that there's a beyond normal amount of interest.

437
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,679
Speaker 1: Right people seek out this box when they're they're board

438
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 1: with all of the sensations of Earth and they want

439
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:46,800
Speaker 1: to go beyond. They want to see what of other

440
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: level they can reach. They have to find this secret artifact. Yeah,

441
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: and you know, ultimately, I think we all have puzzle

442
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:55,719
Speaker 1: boxes like that in our lives that we're trying to unravel. Right.

443
00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: But one of the interesting things here is that, of

444
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,679
Speaker 1: course Clive Barker's not just creating this out of nothing.

445
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 1: He's he's drawing on inspirations. One of the inspirations is

446
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,040
Speaker 1: clearly and you know especially I think they flesh this

447
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:11,919
Speaker 1: out a little bit uh in the fourth film, uh,

448
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:16,159
Speaker 1: playing on the tradition of philosophical toys, uh, the that

449
00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: captivated to audiences in the eighteenth century. And we've talked

450
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: about some of these on the show before, like the

451
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:26,720
Speaker 1: pooping duck, various automatons, wind up clockwork devices. They don't

452
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: really do anything. I mean, they don't you know, fulfill

453
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 1: a purpose. They do things, but those things that they

454
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 1: do are merely to amuse us or to make us

455
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,960
Speaker 1: think about, you know, the biomechanical nature of the world,

456
00:24:39,280 --> 00:24:41,640
Speaker 1: or God as a clockmaker, that sort of thing. Sure,

457
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 1: a machine that poses a question. Yeah, and they're also testaments,

458
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,239
Speaker 1: of course, to the creator's talents. How could someone so

459
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: gifted with machinery make a musical box such as this?

460
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: But then there's a there's another legacy of boxes that

461
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: he's drawing out, and that is the puzzle box, particularly

462
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 1: the puzzle boxes of the Victorian period. And I have

463
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,440
Speaker 1: to admit I really wasn't familiar with with these at all,

464
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: Like even you know, having seen the hell Raiser movies,

465
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: I never looked into anything anything beyond the you know,

466
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 1: the wind up clockwork stuff. But there's a tradition of woodworking,

467
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:22,399
Speaker 1: uh trick boxes, puzzle boxes, and they're pretty pretty phenomenal.

468
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:27,119
Speaker 1: So one example I came across from said to be

469
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: from the year nineteen hundred, is a wooden book money box.

470
00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: So it looks like a book that you would have

471
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,959
Speaker 1: on a shelf, like a hard bound book, but it's

472
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:37,080
Speaker 1: made out of wood. If you pick it up, take

473
00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: it off the shelf, you see that there's a coin

474
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: slot in top in the top of it. So it's

475
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: not being too secretive, like I put money into this,

476
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,159
Speaker 1: But then how do you get the money out? Well,

477
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: to do that you have to know the trick, and

478
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,160
Speaker 1: these older trick boxes there generally there's just one way

479
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,920
Speaker 1: to do it. So on this one, you slide part

480
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: of the book spine aside and that allows you to

481
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,600
Speaker 1: slide another little panel and that opens the box and

482
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: you can get the money inside. Uh. It's clever, you know,

483
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 1: kind of the woodworking version of the various clockwork marvels

484
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,199
Speaker 1: that we were discussing earlier. But then it ends up

485
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 1: coming to it into its own in the twentieth century,

486
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,840
Speaker 1: because it's during this period that you have woodworkers both

487
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: in Europe, particularly in England and Switzerland, but also in Japan.

488
00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 1: They really begin pushing the boundaries of what's possible with

489
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: a wooden puzzle box, and the Japanese puzzle boxes seemed

490
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,120
Speaker 1: to be some of the most impressive. They typically look

491
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: like ornate wooden boxes with no visible hinges or lids,

492
00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:41,119
Speaker 1: and then they may require as few as three or

493
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: more than a hundred moves to open. So sliding, yeah,

494
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,240
Speaker 1: like sliding this little panel, like first of all, finding

495
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: the panels to figure out like which what does a

496
00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:53,720
Speaker 1: piece of wood that moves here, and then sliding it

497
00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: to the side, sliding something else to the side, doing

498
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: all these little tricks in order to open up the

499
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 1: old him an interior of the box. Um. Yeah, And

500
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 1: and this was according to wood Smith's Shop, which is

501
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 1: a video series from wood Smith Magazine Episode twelve o

502
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: four is on YouTube. These guys Chris and Phil host

503
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: it and uh you know they're they're going for the

504
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,560
Speaker 1: hell Raiser audience by the way, Yeah, they're They're exactly

505
00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: what you might imagine when you think of like sort

506
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 1: of I'm guessing like Midwestern um perhaps um, you know,

507
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 1: would wood wood workers, Uh you know that. But they

508
00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: show off one of these boxes and the craftsmanship is amazing.

509
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:37,280
Speaker 1: Like woodworking, I feel, is an area that I often

510
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 1: take for granted, Like I see a finished piece of furniture,

511
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,199
Speaker 1: be it something from Ikea or something you know, in

512
00:27:43,240 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: a more robust and I don't really think about all

513
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: the skill that went into making it. And perhaps that's

514
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,679
Speaker 1: why things like wooden puzzle boxes exist to show you

515
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 1: just how much skill is involved in turning uh you know,

516
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: raw wood into something that serves the purpose. Well, there's

517
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,560
Speaker 1: something counter into do about it, because we don't usually

518
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: think of woodworking as is being concerned with moving parts.

519
00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,119
Speaker 1: Most often, woodworking is you know, design and crafting of

520
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,199
Speaker 1: static elements, maybe with very few moving parts, or some

521
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:15,200
Speaker 1: things that maybe there's a hinge or something on a cabinet,

522
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 1: but these combined elements of of course, the kind of

523
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:24,120
Speaker 1: beautiful static art and design of woodworking with the kinds

524
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: of interlocking mechanisms you'd more often see in machinery and metalworking. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

525
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I can, I can describe them a

526
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:35,479
Speaker 1: little bit, but I really you should look up some

527
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: videos of people manipulating these boxes and then hopefully, you know,

528
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: get your hands on a wooden puzzle box of your own,

529
00:28:41,240 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: because there are still people making them. There's an individual

530
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 1: by the name of Kegan Sound that's with a K

531
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 1: K A G A N S O U N D

532
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 1: at Kegan sound dot com. You can look him up.

533
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: He's apparently one of the foremost wooden puzzle box makers

534
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 1: in the world, and he's he's something of a modern

535
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: day Lema che And if you will wait, well that's

536
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: from the fourth movie, right, we find out that the

537
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,120
Speaker 1: creator of the box is somebody named Lamar shand I

538
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,920
Speaker 1: think it's also revealed in the novella If okay, it's

539
00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:14,240
Speaker 1: it's the Lament configuration or the La marchand Box. Yes. Yeah,

540
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 1: there are also people that are apparently making puzzle boxes

541
00:29:17,120 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: out of Lego blox, which makes sense now some of

542
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: you might say, well, hey, how about the Rubik's cute

543
00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:28,479
Speaker 1: uh or no rubis invention. I would say, like, if

544
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 1: you do it just right, it opens up and there's

545
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 1: something inside. Well, that's the thing. It doesn't have an interior,

546
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: so it's not it's a puzzle cube, not a true

547
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: puzzle box. There is no inside to the Rubi's cube.

548
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 1: It will not open up new realms of pleasure and sensation. No,

549
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: that's not true. If you solve it, you get all

550
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: the faces, solid colors, Hoaks shoot out of the walls.

551
00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,960
Speaker 1: That's how you get the hooks. Um. Yeah. I should

552
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 1: also point out that it's not always completely clear in

553
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 1: the hell Raiser books that the Lament configuration has an

554
00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: interior either, But there are shots in the film that

555
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: establish an interior to the box, and it's interior is

556
00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 1: described in the novella. So there are scenes in the

557
00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:06,800
Speaker 1: movie that I can imagine would have worked a lot

558
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,520
Speaker 1: better in fiction when you didn't have to see them staged.

559
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: And one of them is the scene where the box

560
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: is solved in order to fix the problem, you know,

561
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,479
Speaker 1: where the cinemabytes are sent back to their realm because

562
00:30:21,000 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: Kirsty Swanson like does the right things with the box.

563
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: I mean, it just looks funny when she's messing with

564
00:30:26,240 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: the box while the house is falling apart and Pinhead

565
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: is saying, no, don't do that. Yeah. Yeah. It's the

566
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,400
Speaker 1: problems of translating the novella to to the film because

567
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,920
Speaker 1: in the novella the box is also not described as

568
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: being really ornate, even it's really more has more in

569
00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: common in the book with the these wooden puzzle boxes

570
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 1: we've described. Now, you know the the here's another area

571
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: to consider, So that the box of Lament is largely

572
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: positioned as a thing that must be solved in order

573
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: to open a gate, to reveal a secret. But we

574
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: probably shouldn't forget that the cinepytes are also presented, especially

575
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 1: in the novella, as explorers. Uh there's a sense of

576
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: curiosity to them. Uh they're truly spaced out on sensation,

577
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: you might say. And uh so I'm wondering might we

578
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 1: consider the Lament configuration as a means of exploration as well,

579
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,880
Speaker 1: because certainly puzzle boxes are used in various animal studies

580
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,160
Speaker 1: by scientists, typically with a food reward at the center.

581
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: I believe we've discussed the sorts of boxes in the

582
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: study of Corvid's where they'll be like generally, you know,

583
00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: there's food in the middle of the box. There may

584
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: be some tools, or they have to make their own tool,

585
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: what have you. But they have to come up with

586
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: a way to free the prize from the box, which

587
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,760
Speaker 1: is ultimately what Frank's trying to do with the Lament configuration. Now,

588
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 1: another noteworthy puzzle box from science history is a Thorndyke's

589
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 1: puzzle box. Uh. This is the work of an American

590
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: psychologist who is working at the same time as as

591
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 1: pav Lav and in the same area, you know, looking

592
00:31:58,080 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: at animals and their problem solving ability using their behavior,

593
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 1: and he used this on cats in particular to test

594
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: their learning and problem solving abilities. They're essentially cages that

595
00:32:08,480 --> 00:32:12,280
Speaker 1: can be exited by performing at the correct task, hitting

596
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: the right mechanism, etcetera, in order to to step out

597
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: of the cage and get your food. Uh and uh.

598
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: In His main observation from all of this was that

599
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 1: a cat would behave radically the first time use that

600
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: you put them in the box the first time they

601
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 1: were in there for the experiment, but then they would

602
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: learn so in subsequent experiments they wouldn't. They would waste

603
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: less and less time in the box. They would just

604
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,960
Speaker 1: realize like, oh, I'm in here again. I pushed this button.

605
00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 1: Then I get out and I can get my food.

606
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 1: And then Thorndyke's work would lead to another noteworthy box,

607
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 1: Skinner's Box, in which the animal has to engage a

608
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: mechanism in order to be fed within the box, the

609
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: work of BF Skinner. So later installments of the hell

610
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 1: Raiser franchise explored to some degree the idea of the

611
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 1: boxes a place or thing that may contain us, but

612
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,800
Speaker 1: for the most part not so much. But the the

613
00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: idea of the puzzle boxes a means of exploring human desire.

614
00:33:01,600 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: I think that's kind of an interesting idea to consider. Well,

615
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 1: it makes me wonder if the box is also being

616
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 1: used to test us somehow. If it is being used

617
00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: to test us, then to test the humans that you know,

618
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: play with it. Obviously the people doing the testing would

619
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: be the cinobytes, right, So maybe we should turn to

620
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 1: the cinobytes and think a little bit about about pain, experience, sensation,

621
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,480
Speaker 1: and flagellation. Absolutely all right, So let's just start with

622
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: the word cinobyte, because this this really gets into a

623
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: lot of what we're going to discuss here. A cinnobyte

624
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: is merely a member of a religious group living together

625
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 1: in a monastic community. There are plenty of cinnobytes. Technically,

626
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: there are plenty of cinnabytes in the world today, and

627
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: they have They have nothing to do with the hell

628
00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: Raiser movie. If you've never seen it written out. It

629
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 1: is not spelled like cinnabun uh. It is c e

630
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:51,560
Speaker 1: n o. They had. The word apparently emerged in the

631
00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 1: fifteenth century, and it comes from the late Latin colonobita.

632
00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 1: If I'm saying that correctly, Basically you have the Greek

633
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: coin cohen plus bios life, so it basically means the

634
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 1: monastic life. Now, one obviously does see certain levels of

635
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: self inflicted pain, however, in monastic history. So religious rights

636
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: of flagellation or blood lighting can be found throughout Christian, Islamic, Hindu, Buddhist,

637
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 1: Native American, and other religious rights. We we've covered some

638
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: of these on the show before. There there are plenty

639
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: of religious rights of pain that can be found in

640
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: the world and in human history, just as there are

641
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: various secular rights of pain that can be found today.

642
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 1: Within the realms of say performance art or even you

643
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,239
Speaker 1: know b D s M for instance, uh the later

644
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 1: of which served as partial inspiration for Clive Barker, and

645
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: likewise Barker's work, while enough influencing B D s M

646
00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: to some degree as well. Oh that's not surprising. Uh.

647
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: So I was looking around, yeah, for more historical ideas

648
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,399
Speaker 1: about pain and pleasure indivisible as the as Pin says,

649
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:03,480
Speaker 1: they explore, and I came across a book by the

650
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:07,160
Speaker 1: American psychologist James H. Luba, who lived eighteen sixty eight

651
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:10,400
Speaker 1: to nineteen forty six, who focused a lot of his

652
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: work on the psychology of religion. And this book was

653
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: called The Psychology of Religious Mysticism. And in this book

654
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:19,480
Speaker 1: there's part where he's in the middle of a section

655
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 1: about narcotics, consciousness, and mysticism, and Luba begins to discuss

656
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,800
Speaker 1: the idea of pleasure in pain or enjoyment in suffering,

657
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: which is a major theme of of this movie and

658
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: of the novel. And his hypothesis is that quote, the

659
00:35:35,080 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: apparent paradox of people seeking and enjoying pain becomes intelligible

660
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:45,359
Speaker 1: when one takes into account the passion for vivid consciousness Uh.

661
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: And so he of course is this is in the

662
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,919
Speaker 1: context of religious experience. So he mentions members of self

663
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 1: flagellating Muslim sex of the quote, painful ascetic practices of

664
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: the yogi, or the violent dancing frenzies of the mind ads.

665
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:02,200
Speaker 1: He says as those quote all may yield a sense

666
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: of new or increased life. Now what does he mean

667
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 1: by that? Well, he explains further by quoting a letter

668
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:13,680
Speaker 1: from Gothold Ephraim Lessing to Moses Mendelssohn, which in which

669
00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: Lesson writes, quote, were agreed in this, my dear friend,

670
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: that all passions are either vehement cravings or vehement loathings.

671
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: And also that in every vehement craving or loathing, we

672
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: acquire an increased consciousness of our reality, and that this

673
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: consciousness cannot but be pleasurable. Consequently, all our passions, even

674
00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: the most painful, are as passions pleasurable. Uh, which is

675
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:42,680
Speaker 1: kind of interesting. Explore more in a second. But that

676
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 1: I just realized that made me think of a passage

677
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: in The Brothers Karamazov that's all about, uh, a character

678
00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:56,080
Speaker 1: talking about the pleasure one takes in taking offense. Uh.

679
00:36:57,239 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: And I remember being like Wow, how have I never

680
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:04,320
Speaker 1: read this before? It's so true that, like, in getting

681
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: mad about something unfair that has happened to you or

682
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,920
Speaker 1: somebody who's been mean to you or something, there is

683
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:13,719
Speaker 1: so often this feeling of like almost joy in the

684
00:37:13,960 --> 00:37:17,080
Speaker 1: way that you get worked up about it. Yeah, And

685
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: and there's a difference to like there's certainly there's righteous anger.

686
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 1: There's a situation where like if you feel like you've

687
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:26,200
Speaker 1: been wronged and you're you're having been wronged is a

688
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 1: part of a larger problem in the culture in the world,

689
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 1: then yeah, you can get in this area of righteous anger.

690
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: But I think more of what you're talking about here

691
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,319
Speaker 1: are the petty things in life, you know, where it's

692
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: like the server at a restaurant doesn't bring you your

693
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,800
Speaker 1: appetizer first, and you you have been wrong and you

694
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: just start getting excited about how mad you are, and

695
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: on some lie, like you're probably not thinking, oh I

696
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: feel so alive, I'm so angry at the server, but

697
00:37:56,160 --> 00:37:58,960
Speaker 1: in a way that is happening. But yeah, So what

698
00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: does Luba think is going on with these these passions

699
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: being pleasurable even when they're painful. Uh. He writes that

700
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:09,960
Speaker 1: it's because these heightened states of awareness and passion triggered

701
00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:13,759
Speaker 1: by pain offer an escape from a sort of baseline

702
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: form of consciousness characterized by tedium, insensibility and normal fatigue. Thus,

703
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,360
Speaker 1: for some people, normal states of consciousness become so boring,

704
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:29,399
Speaker 1: so exhausting and tedious, that the self infliction of pain

705
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: actually unlocks a state of mind that is to them

706
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,800
Speaker 1: preferable by contrast, And and this becomes an important distinction

707
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 1: in Luba's idea here. It's that religious ecstasy in the

708
00:38:40,680 --> 00:38:44,880
Speaker 1: self infliction of pain is not actually an enjoyment directly

709
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: of the pain itself, but an enjoyment of a kind

710
00:38:48,000 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: of rapturous and highly aware state of mind that's brought

711
00:38:51,560 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 1: about by the infliction of pain. Quote. Not the pain

712
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: nor the wound does the martyr enjoy, but the exaltation

713
00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:03,080
Speaker 1: that come with the quivering of the flesh. The quivering

714
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 1: of the flesh. Oh, you're a fan too, No, I mean,

715
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: it's so it's interesting. I'll come back to hell Raiser

716
00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: in just a second. I mean, first, I would point

717
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 1: out that, of course this is in the sort of

718
00:39:14,560 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: like William James E in cast of like broad observational psychology,

719
00:39:18,520 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: which it doesn't necessarily mean he's wrong, but it does

720
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: mean that it should be thought of more like interesting

721
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: philosophical writings based on observations rather than conclusions derived from

722
00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,080
Speaker 1: rigorously controlled experiments. But again, it's not say he's wrong,

723
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,040
Speaker 1: it's just that it's not really science by modern standard.

724
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: It's more like philosophy and cultural criticism. He could be

725
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: onto something there, uh, And I do think those observations

726
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,800
Speaker 1: maybe onto something. It's funny that it lines up so

727
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,160
Speaker 1: well with the character of Frank in Hell Raiser, a

728
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:50,440
Speaker 1: man who again in the movie, we we see a

729
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:55,920
Speaker 1: couple of scenes of him appearing disgusted by normal hedonistic pleasure.

730
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,000
Speaker 1: Like all of the regular pleasures of the flesh that

731
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: seemed to have they failed for him. They don't work anymore.

732
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:06,879
Speaker 1: Everything's boring. So according to Luba's framework here, it could

733
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: make sense for him to join a self flagellating order

734
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 1: devoted to the mortification of the flesh, because maybe pain

735
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: will unlock higher states of conscious awareness and excitation that

736
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,200
Speaker 1: he wants to reach, but for which the bridges of

737
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: normal pleasure have collapsed. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a

738
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: solid read on on Frank's character for sure, you know,

739
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 1: but Also, Julia is the sort of flip side of

740
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: that coin. She's the tedium side of it. She is

741
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 1: she lives this life of boredom and perhaps some level

742
00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: of contempt for her boring husband as well, um and

743
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: ends up being sucked into this world of of intense

744
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 1: sensation as just as Frank has. But I think in

745
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:48,360
Speaker 1: all this one thing we get to is that it

746
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:54,480
Speaker 1: starts to become complicated to try to define and understand pain.

747
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,400
Speaker 1: I think because when you ask what is pain, it's

748
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: something we all know about. You know, there's no aating

749
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,480
Speaker 1: whether there is such a thing as pain. But when

750
00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 1: you try to come up with a rigorous definition of

751
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: it that applies to every case, that becomes difficult. I

752
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: think it goes back to that quote from the help

753
00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: Priest himself. What we think of pain is a shadow,

754
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 1: but pain has a face. M who just but actually

755
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,879
Speaker 1: like for us to actually define the lines of that face. Uh,

756
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: It's it's extremely difficult and a huge part of that.

757
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:28,879
Speaker 1: And this is something we've talked about in the show before.

758
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,520
Speaker 1: It's like the difficulty in even discussing pain. Like I

759
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: can talk about my pain, you can talk about your pain,

760
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,239
Speaker 1: but it becomes very difficult for us to properly understand

761
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,800
Speaker 1: each other's pain. Uh, and but properly related. Yeah, and

762
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: there are some contexts in which I think it's simpler

763
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: than others. But even in the simpler ones, say like

764
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: regular no susceptive body pain that you would feel in

765
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,240
Speaker 1: the context of, you know, getting pricked with a needle

766
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: or something in a clinical setting. Even then, if we

767
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: look to like us to approximation type answers within the

768
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 1: medical world, you can get definitions like this one, which

769
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 1: is cited by the International Association for the Study of Pain. Quote.

770
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: Pain is an unpleasant, sensory and emotional experience that is

771
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: associated with actual or potential tissue damage or described in

772
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:23,000
Speaker 1: such terms. Okay, so that's kind of complicated. It's got

773
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: multiple clauses in there. But also one of the things

774
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 1: that's difficult about that you immediately hit a snag with

775
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:35,439
Speaker 1: the idea that pain is explicitly and necessarily described as unpleasant,

776
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 1: and this very definition would of course, I think that

777
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: would apply to most cases. I mean most cases when

778
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,799
Speaker 1: people say they're in pain, they think of that as

779
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,520
Speaker 1: bad and they wanted to stop right Well, yeah, I

780
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: mean part of it. You have the problem with our

781
00:42:48,200 --> 00:42:53,000
Speaker 1: our language. Uh. For instance, in in yoga, I practice yoga,

782
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,080
Speaker 1: and something that's often touched on by the teachers is

783
00:42:57,200 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 1: that is the distinction between discomfort and pain. Like you

784
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: should work with discomfort, like discomfort is part of the practice.

785
00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 1: But if you are feeling pain, then that means you

786
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:09,320
Speaker 1: need to back off because you don't want to go

787
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,320
Speaker 1: into that third area of injury of damage. But a

788
00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of times it can be hard to tell the

789
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 1: difference between discomfort and pain. I mean, are they distinct

790
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 1: classes of things or is that a gradient with you know,

791
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,400
Speaker 1: them being at two different sides of a scale. Uh.

792
00:43:24,520 --> 00:43:27,200
Speaker 1: And of course, the very definition that says that pain

793
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:31,239
Speaker 1: is necessarily unpleasant would seem to rule out the existence

794
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: of pleasure in pain. It would either mean that nobody

795
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,200
Speaker 1: actually does take pleasure in pain, and I think lots

796
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: of anecdotal evidence would seem to disagree with that, right,

797
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: or that painful sensations that bring about pleasure are not

798
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: actually technically pain. But in that case, what are they?

799
00:43:48,080 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: What would you call them? I mean, it's a great

800
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,920
Speaker 1: man once said pain don't hurt, So what are we

801
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 1: to make of that? Okay, so you quote Roadhouse and

802
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,399
Speaker 1: he said, but I think that position in a way

803
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: is inco parent he so he says, pain don't hurt,

804
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:04,320
Speaker 1: but then he spends the rest of the movie trying

805
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:07,719
Speaker 1: to prevent the villain from inflicting pain on people. It's true,

806
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,760
Speaker 1: I've got a real beef with Roadhouse, But I wonder

807
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:12,560
Speaker 1: if that quote, like part of it is that what

808
00:44:12,680 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: he's trying to say is that for him, physical pain

809
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,560
Speaker 1: does not have, at least in this case, an emotional context.

810
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: But I think it's in a way, it's like a

811
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: lot of things in the Roadhouse, Like maybe it's accidentally

812
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:28,719
Speaker 1: clever because because it is getting at that distinction, like

813
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:34,440
Speaker 1: for for human beings, pain is both sensory, like purely sensory,

814
00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: but also it has this enormous emotional context, right, Yeah,

815
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:42,879
Speaker 1: that it pain is a physical sensation. You know, there's

816
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 1: no susception in the nerves in the flesh, and so

817
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,640
Speaker 1: it detects something that is an injury, could indicate an

818
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 1: injury or something like that. But then it also is

819
00:44:51,200 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 1: a motivation. It triggers avoidance behaviors. Yeah, Like in the

820
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: the yoga example for instance, like the pain is there

821
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: to tell me, hey, this thing you're doing to your arm,

822
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,840
Speaker 1: uh is not in your normal practice. You should you

823
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 1: should be aware that if this continues, worst things could occur. Injury,

824
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 1: damage could occur. Again, that's normal functioning, not getting into

825
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, disorders of pain. But again yeah, for humans,

826
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 1: pain is a complex topic. Uh, physical sensation, but also

827
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 1: this emotional realm as well. And there are seemingly dimensions

828
00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 1: of pain that are beyond the scope of less cognitively

829
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 1: advanced organisms. You know, not saying animals don't feel pain,

830
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 1: but and their animals do not necessarily have this emotional

831
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: context to their their suffering as well. Yeah, certainly not

832
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:42,680
Speaker 1: in the same way. I mean, you can see that

833
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:46,240
Speaker 1: a painful stimulus might cause a retreat or avoidance behaviors,

834
00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 1: and say a crab, but it's hard to believe that

835
00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:52,640
Speaker 1: a crab has the full spectrum of human like fear

836
00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: and emotions that that you would get from feeling a

837
00:45:56,280 --> 00:45:59,800
Speaker 1: painful wound, which raises an interesting question. Would a being

838
00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 1: more cognitively advanced than a human being have a greater

839
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 1: potential for suffering and pain? And maybe would that explain

840
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: something about the nature of many gods and myth and legend. Oh,

841
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 1: I mean This shows up in existing works of theology.

842
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's something that's often used to

843
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 1: develop the Christian mythos, which is of course has a

844
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,360
Speaker 1: big theology of the suffering of God. It says that

845
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:26,400
Speaker 1: God came down into human form, was crucified on the

846
00:46:26,480 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: cross in the form of Jesus Christ, and then descended

847
00:46:29,120 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: into hell for three days, and then was resurrected. And

848
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,320
Speaker 1: in order to emphasize the immensity of the sacrifice, Christian

849
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: theologians often point out that this isn't just like a

850
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:43,480
Speaker 1: human suffering, it's God himself suffering. And since God's state

851
00:46:43,520 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: of holiness and perfection was already infinitely greater than humans,

852
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 1: it follows that when he descends to suffering and death,

853
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:53,920
Speaker 1: that suffering is infinitely greater of an insult than it

854
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:56,480
Speaker 1: would be to a normal human. So the parts of

855
00:46:56,520 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 1: our brain that respond a pleasure also react two sensations

856
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: of pain. This also further complicates things, and the line

857
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 1: between the two is sometimes a bit of a blur.

858
00:47:07,480 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: For instance, two thousand thirteen study from the University of

859
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: Oslo found that quote the brain changed how it processed

860
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 1: moderate pain according to the context of what the alternative

861
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 1: was if the pain was less than anticipated, then the

862
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 1: brain transformed the sensation into something comforting or even pleasurable. Likewise,

863
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: there was a two thousand fourteen study from Northern Illinois

864
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:32,720
Speaker 1: University that linked sado masochism the altered states of mind

865
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,879
Speaker 1: that can be obtained their linked them with with those

866
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,360
Speaker 1: states of mind you might achieve through yoga or meditation,

867
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 1: you know, which which I think a lot of that

868
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: makes sense. You were talking about, like just a feeling

869
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: alive in the moment of sensation, be that sensation, you know,

870
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: painful or pleasurable. Like there is a is essentially a

871
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 1: built in mindfulness exercise to that. In the same way

872
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:56,919
Speaker 1: that if you focus on your breath you are living

873
00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: entirely or at least more so in the body then

874
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: you are normally Likewise, if you uh, you know, if

875
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: you you accidentally prick your finger, you're you're living in

876
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 1: the moment of that that that that finger prick, Like

877
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: there's probably not a lot else on your mind in

878
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 1: that single instance. Oh. In fact, that this actually comes

879
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: up in the study I want to talk about in

880
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 1: a minute that has to do with how pain. Pain

881
00:48:21,000 --> 00:48:23,880
Speaker 1: has been shown to alter or mediate our perception of

882
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 1: our identity excellent. Uh. The same two thousand fourteen study,

883
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 1: the researchers uh, and you know, they suspected that pain

884
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,919
Speaker 1: inflicted in consensual sado masochism alters blood flow in the brain,

885
00:48:36,000 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: particularly to the dorso lateral prefrontal cortex, which plays into

886
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:44,280
Speaker 1: our ability to distinguish self from other. As such, intense

887
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:48,040
Speaker 1: pain may result in feelings of oneness with you know,

888
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,640
Speaker 1: the other individual or with humanity or the universe, which

889
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: it is interesting to think about. That is really interesting.

890
00:48:56,280 --> 00:48:58,319
Speaker 1: I mean that gets back into stuff we talked about

891
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 1: in our episodes on psye adelics, of course, with the uh,

892
00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: the sort of self other distinction that is sometimes dissolved

893
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: by changes in brain chemistry. But of course we know

894
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 1: that not all changes in brain brain chemistry have to

895
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 1: come from ingesting chemicals from outside the body, right right,

896
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,920
Speaker 1: um man, I quite again, I do want to underline

897
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:20,919
Speaker 1: the consensual aspect of that study. They are talking about

898
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: consensual acts of salomaschism here, of course. Yeah. Now, I

899
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:28,840
Speaker 1: figured it would be worth talking about other interesting scientific

900
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 1: research that offers complications in our understanding and experience of pain.

901
00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 1: One thing that I came across that was really interesting

902
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: to me. Is something that is known. It's it's a

903
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 1: cognitive heuristic known as the peak end phenomenon. And so

904
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:48,880
Speaker 1: this is a psychological memory bias that says that people

905
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,760
Speaker 1: don't in their memories mentally characterize and experience by taking

906
00:49:54,840 --> 00:49:58,440
Speaker 1: an average of the entire duration of the experience. Rather,

907
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:03,040
Speaker 1: they mentally care aaracterize and experience according to memories of

908
00:50:03,080 --> 00:50:06,600
Speaker 1: a couple of little things, and they tend very often

909
00:50:06,680 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: to be moments of peak intensity of the experience and

910
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 1: then the final moments of the experience. And this has

911
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:18,520
Speaker 1: been found to apply to both pleasurable and painful experiences.

912
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:22,200
Speaker 1: Of course, not all experiences. No psychological phenomenon applies to everything,

913
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:25,439
Speaker 1: but to a lot in which it very often has

914
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:29,359
Speaker 1: strange consequences. It's been documented a lot of times now,

915
00:50:29,520 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 1: but one important early study is by Daniel Kaneman, Barbara Frederickson,

916
00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: Charles Schrieber, and Donald Radelmeyer published in Psychological Science in

917
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,880
Speaker 1: called when more pain is preferred to less adding a

918
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:47,399
Speaker 1: better end. So in this study it was pretty simple,

919
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,040
Speaker 1: You've got to test conditions that both induce pain. Again,

920
00:50:51,320 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: like most studies are pretty much all good studies, this

921
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:55,799
Speaker 1: is going to be non threatening pain, but it will

922
00:50:55,840 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 1: be uncomfortable. And what it is here is a plunge

923
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: your hand into cold water and holding it there. So

924
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: in test one, you plunge your hand into cold water,

925
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: which was fifteen degrees celsius, and you hold it there

926
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:11,920
Speaker 1: for one minute. And then in test too, you do

927
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: exactly the same thing, plunge into the fifteen degree celsius

928
00:51:15,200 --> 00:51:17,640
Speaker 1: cold water, hold it there for one minute, but then

929
00:51:17,719 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: you also have to hold it for an additional thirty

930
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: seconds as the temperature in the water is gradually slightly increased,

931
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: though it's still cold, more cold than is comfortable. A

932
00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:33,440
Speaker 1: majority of people, a significant majority of people chose when

933
00:51:33,520 --> 00:51:35,920
Speaker 1: they had the choice to repeat one of the two tests,

934
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: chose to repeat the second test rather than the first,

935
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: meaning they'd rather the discomfort go on longer if the

936
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:50,200
Speaker 1: final moments of the discomfort were slightly less intense. And

937
00:51:50,600 --> 00:51:53,280
Speaker 1: other studies have found versions of this in different context.

938
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,280
Speaker 1: It does seem that we are willing to experience more

939
00:51:57,560 --> 00:52:01,280
Speaker 1: pain or discomfort for a long, longer period of time

940
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: if the last few moments of the pain are not

941
00:52:04,640 --> 00:52:07,400
Speaker 1: as bad, and this seems to suggest that there's some

942
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: way that as we form memories of painful or unpleasant experience,

943
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: those memories can be formed in such a way that objectively,

944
00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: more pain chronologically measured seems like less pain because the

945
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,040
Speaker 1: ending of it wasn't quite as bad, and the ending

946
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,120
Speaker 1: seems to matter the most to us. But this also

947
00:52:26,160 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: makes perfect sense if you think of of pain as

948
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 1: the signal warning you about something that may happen about

949
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 1: you know, continued stressing of this particular muscle, or continued

950
00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: exposure to a dangerous element such as heat or cold.

951
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: Oh that's very interesting. I hadn't so, I'd seen it

952
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:47,480
Speaker 1: mainly interpreted, like what's causing this? The main interpretation I

953
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:49,880
Speaker 1: had seen had been recency bias. Of course, you know

954
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 1: we tend to uh no, well, again, there are two things.

955
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 1: It's the peak intensity of the experience and the end.

956
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 1: So focusing on the end of the experience, it would

957
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,560
Speaker 1: be the recency bias. Right is, the things that happen

958
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:04,399
Speaker 1: more recently seem more salient to us. Um. But yeah,

959
00:53:04,640 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: that also makes sense, especially for registering pain, because pain

960
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,960
Speaker 1: is a lot about what could happen. It's supposed to

961
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,640
Speaker 1: be giving you warnings that are useful information in order

962
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 1: for you to protect your body. Right. But then again,

963
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:21,080
Speaker 1: at the same time as we're discussing and will continuous

964
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:24,680
Speaker 1: discuss the human pain is complex, so there are other

965
00:53:24,800 --> 00:53:27,000
Speaker 1: elements that I guess may skew that sort of thing. Oh,

966
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 1: of course. Yeah, so so that's that's an interesting possibility too.

967
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: And I should note that, of course, like a lot

968
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 1: of psychological phenomenon, the peak in phenomenon doesn't always apply

969
00:53:35,920 --> 00:53:38,600
Speaker 1: at every instance, but it's a general rule. It seems

970
00:53:38,640 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: like we followed this an awful lot. But if more

971
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: pain objectively measured seems in our minds like less pain,

972
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 1: at least in retrospect, then what is pain like? What

973
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:52,640
Speaker 1: is the real pain? What is the real thing that

974
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 1: we want to try to lessen and avoid? Or in

975
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 1: some of these rare cases where people are enjoy or

976
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 1: taking enjoyment and pain, what is the kind they want

977
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: to experience? More pain in the memory or pain in

978
00:54:05,000 --> 00:54:08,160
Speaker 1: in the in the moment sensation, since those things don't

979
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 1: always necessarily match up. Yeah, that's true. I mean, this

980
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:13,840
Speaker 1: is the kind of thing that I feel like this

981
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 1: happens anytime we look at pain, or you really think

982
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,280
Speaker 1: about pain, is that it seems like our our language

983
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:21,800
Speaker 1: of pain is severely lacking, Like we just don't have

984
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:27,000
Speaker 1: the proper vocabulary to get it all the different nuances here. Yeah, totally.

985
00:54:27,040 --> 00:54:30,400
Speaker 1: I mean it raises all kinds of questions, like I mean,

986
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: even for yourself, if you're not trying to make a

987
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 1: judgment for other people, assuming pain is something you want

988
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: to avoid in this context, would you rather have less

989
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 1: pain in the moment or less pain in your memory

990
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,600
Speaker 1: of an experience? I don't know how to like, I

991
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 1: really don't know how to answer that, right, And this

992
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,839
Speaker 1: is and this is the total human dimension of pain,

993
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: like the memory of pain. And this is the kind

994
00:54:54,520 --> 00:54:57,640
Speaker 1: of thing that yeah, you know, some animals are gonna

995
00:54:57,640 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 1: have to deal with a certain animals is gonna have

996
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,040
Speaker 1: to deal with to some level. But but humans and

997
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:06,560
Speaker 1: pain and memory and the ability to to mentally time

998
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 1: travel back to that pain and then to to likewise,

999
00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: you know, imagine encountering that pain in the future like

1000
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,120
Speaker 1: that defines so much of what we do. Absolutely, now

1001
00:55:16,160 --> 00:55:18,080
Speaker 1: I've got another study to talk about with pain. But

1002
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: should we take a break first and then come back.

1003
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:26,120
Speaker 1: Let's do it. Thank alright, we're back. We're continuing to

1004
00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:29,000
Speaker 1: spin off of hell Raiser and the hell Bound Heart

1005
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:33,560
Speaker 1: and discuss the nature of pain, pleasure and pain indivisible

1006
00:55:33,640 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 1: as the cinnabytes would say. So, one study I came

1007
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 1: across that I thought had some interesting bits, and it

1008
00:55:39,680 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: was called The Positive Consequences of Pain, a Biopsychosocial Approach

1009
00:55:45,080 --> 00:55:50,560
Speaker 1: by Bastion, Jetton, Hornsey, and Lechness from the Social Psychology

1010
00:55:50,640 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 1: Review in and here this is a big review article.

1011
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: So it's like looking at existing literature to collect examples

1012
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,480
Speaker 1: of ways that pain has been documented to have some

1013
00:56:02,800 --> 00:56:05,879
Speaker 1: positive effects. And of course you can't list all of them,

1014
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,840
Speaker 1: and and maybe some of these are better held up

1015
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: by evidence than others. But these are the things that

1016
00:56:12,200 --> 00:56:15,919
Speaker 1: the broad categories that they found some evidence of. One

1017
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 1: is might be pretty straightforward, but it's kind of interesting.

1018
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 1: Pain often enhances subsequent pleasure by providing a contrasting experience.

1019
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: Pain causes people to rate pleasurable experiences in the aftermath

1020
00:56:30,120 --> 00:56:33,719
Speaker 1: of the pain as more pleasurable than they otherwise would. Yeah.

1021
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: Like an example of this that ties in directly with

1022
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:39,719
Speaker 1: some of the methods used in these experiments is that

1023
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: if you go to ah too certain saunas, there will

1024
00:56:43,000 --> 00:56:46,239
Speaker 1: be a cold water pool like a chilling water pool

1025
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: in which you may immerse all or parts of your

1026
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,640
Speaker 1: body and then in and then once you've overcome with

1027
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: the displeasure of that, then you may go and climb

1028
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: into the hot tub, and then the hot tub will

1029
00:56:58,600 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: be more pleasurable for the discomfort that you have had

1030
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: in the cold top. Yeah. I don't know to what

1031
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:06,560
Speaker 1: extent this plays a role in the mythology of the cinabytes,

1032
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:09,480
Speaker 1: because it seems like they're sort of pursuing pain for

1033
00:57:09,640 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: its own sake in some cases, like they're not always

1034
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: following it up with a nice sauna or something. Oh yeah,

1035
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: we never see them just giving a nice gentle bag massage. Yeah,

1036
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 1: the hooks shoot out the hooks and then it's like, ah,

1037
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: but then after that you get to go have some

1038
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: ice cream. Okay. Another thing from their list is they

1039
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: say there's evidence that pain increases sensory sensitivity. It's sort

1040
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:35,320
Speaker 1: of increases our sampling rate of sensations from the physical world.

1041
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,000
Speaker 1: In some cases, this can be good. Yeah, I mean

1042
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:40,320
Speaker 1: this makes sense, right if your if your body is

1043
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,000
Speaker 1: receiving or resonating with the signal that something something is

1044
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: potentially damaging the body, then it makes sense that the

1045
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: century awareness is also ratcheted up in order to take

1046
00:57:53,600 --> 00:57:56,240
Speaker 1: in what may be harming the body. Right. Another one

1047
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 1: they point out pretty interesting is that pain sometimes blocks

1048
00:57:59,680 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: or a aviates our sense of guilt, which could otherwise

1049
00:58:03,440 --> 00:58:06,080
Speaker 1: prevent us from experiencing pleasure. Robert, I think you had

1050
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,520
Speaker 1: some details on a study that looked into this, right, yes,

1051
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,520
Speaker 1: I do. This is a study. This one came before

1052
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,920
Speaker 1: the other one. This is from two thousand and eleven,

1053
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: but it's also from brock Bastion, the lead author of

1054
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 1: the other study. A real um, you know Hollywood leading

1055
00:58:23,440 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: man name. Uh it sounds like an action here. Uh

1056
00:58:26,720 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 1: So basically M. Brock Bastion of the University of Queensland,

1057
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,480
Speaker 1: Australia set out to understand, uh, you know, what's going

1058
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: on with pain in this situation. Bastion's team recruited young

1059
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 1: male and female test subjects under the guise of a

1060
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:44,680
Speaker 1: mental and physical acuity study. The researchers asked the test

1061
00:58:44,680 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 1: subjects to write a personal essay about a time in

1062
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,240
Speaker 1: which they ostracize someone, and the aim here was to

1063
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 1: make them feel guilty or immoral. Meanwhile, a control group

1064
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 1: wrote personal essays about a routine memory. You know, nothing painful,

1065
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: just a memory. And the searchers instructed both the immoral

1066
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 1: volunteers and the control group to hold their hands in

1067
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 1: a bucket of ice water for as long as they

1068
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 1: could stand it, and others dip their hands in a

1069
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:12,959
Speaker 1: soothing bucket of warm water. So the question is would

1070
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,240
Speaker 1: immoral test subjects punish themselves with longer dips in the

1071
00:59:16,280 --> 00:59:18,640
Speaker 1: cold water? The the individuals who just had to write

1072
00:59:18,640 --> 00:59:20,680
Speaker 1: a personal essay about a time that they were awful,

1073
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:24,440
Speaker 1: would and then would they feel better afterwards? And the

1074
00:59:24,480 --> 00:59:27,400
Speaker 1: answer ends up being yes on both counts. Uh. Those

1075
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,200
Speaker 1: who were primed to feel shame about past actions dip

1076
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:33,400
Speaker 1: their hands in the cold water for longer durations, and

1077
00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:36,200
Speaker 1: they described the dip as more painful and express reduced

1078
00:59:36,240 --> 00:59:40,920
Speaker 1: feelings of guilt afterwards. So Rockbastion argues that this experiment

1079
00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:44,920
Speaker 1: illustrates our culturally altered understanding of pain. We've come to

1080
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:48,720
Speaker 1: process it not only is negative and environmental feedback, but

1081
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:53,560
Speaker 1: is justice and punishment. So on a psychological level, uh,

1082
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: you know, a little bit of self inflected pain rebalances

1083
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,360
Speaker 1: the scales. Uh. Now, I would say, on one hand,

1084
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: this is the kind of like intuition confirming social psychology research.

1085
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,000
Speaker 1: That always makes me think, like, I'd like to see

1086
01:00:07,040 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 1: that replicated, you know, a few times. But but yeah,

1087
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 1: assuming that the results hold up, that that is interesting

1088
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: that like the pain would have this this effect on

1089
01:00:18,440 --> 01:00:22,400
Speaker 1: our self critical judgments, which also, of course gives another

1090
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:26,000
Speaker 1: explanation of why self infliction of pain rituals might be

1091
01:00:26,160 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 1: so common in certain religious orders, especially people who take

1092
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: sins of the flesh very seriously. Yeah, we we see,

1093
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: we see and read about an example of self flagellation

1094
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 1: in m Burdo Echo is the name of the rose. Yes,

1095
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: and of course in that in the movie adaptation, Uh,

1096
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:46,800
Speaker 1: the girl is played by the same actor who would

1097
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:50,280
Speaker 1: play a Cinabyte in the fourth Hell Racer movie. Really,

1098
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:54,720
Speaker 1: so there's your vital on Burdo Echo Hell Razor connection.

1099
01:00:55,200 --> 01:00:59,360
Speaker 1: Love it? Okay? A few more things mentioned in this study. H.

1100
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: So one thing they say is that pain there's some

1101
01:01:02,000 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: evidence that pain quote brings cognitive resources online, so it

1102
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:12,240
Speaker 1: helps increase our cognitive effective control of ourselves. Uh, they

1103
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,840
Speaker 1: say that pain that this one was interesting and we

1104
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: hinted at it earlier. They say that pain enables identity

1105
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: management and one example they give here is that physical

1106
01:01:22,680 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: pain in the body can sometimes interrupt what the authors

1107
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:30,920
Speaker 1: call quote high level awareness of a symbolically mediated, temporarily

1108
01:01:31,120 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 1: extended identity. In other words, the kind of thinking about

1109
01:01:35,240 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 1: oneself that leads to negative, repetitive introspection, worry, self consciousness.

1110
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 1: That physical pain increases awareness of the immediate physical body

1111
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:50,040
Speaker 1: and decreases the immediate salience of these kinds of worries.

1112
01:01:50,160 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 1: That the negative introspection about oneself, and this this horrible

1113
01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,080
Speaker 1: symbolic entity known as a person tied up in this

1114
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:00,840
Speaker 1: idea of the soul, which really we should we so

1115
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,360
Speaker 1: we should thank the cinnabytes for tearing the soul apart,

1116
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:05,600
Speaker 1: like in the movie It. You know, it comes off

1117
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:07,640
Speaker 1: as more this threat. Right, I'm gonna tell you you're

1118
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 1: going to tear your soul apart. What really we should

1119
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,760
Speaker 1: be saying the saying thank you. That's the kind of

1120
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,919
Speaker 1: ego loss I've been searching for. That's why I picked

1121
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: up the limit configuration. Right, That's how you finally achieve

1122
01:02:17,680 --> 01:02:21,280
Speaker 1: the higher state of consciousness. Yeah, okay, and a couple

1123
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:22,960
Speaker 1: of other things they mentioned. This one I think is

1124
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: pretty straightforward, but it's true. Pain can be interpreted as

1125
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 1: demonstrating virtue such as courage, toughness, dedication. The symbolic value

1126
01:02:32,000 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: of withstanding pain can sometimes override the physical discomfort of

1127
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:39,280
Speaker 1: the pain itself, though at the same time worth pointing out,

1128
01:02:39,360 --> 01:02:41,360
Speaker 1: that's a great way to wind up in that that

1129
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:44,720
Speaker 1: third category of injured if you were just you know,

1130
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: like I'm too I'm too masculine. Uh, you know, I'm

1131
01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: too powerful to listen to the pain signal. Well, now

1132
01:02:51,000 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 1: you have the injury and damage signal, and you have

1133
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:56,439
Speaker 1: to deal with that, right, yes. And they also note

1134
01:02:56,480 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: several ways in which it appears that pain promotes affiliation

1135
01:02:59,520 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: between people, you know. They say, the expression of pain

1136
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,600
Speaker 1: can sometimes increase empathy and care for others, and the

1137
01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 1: expressions of pain can trigger social connections, and they can

1138
01:03:09,240 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: strengthen bonding and solidarity. And in the later you know

1139
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:14,800
Speaker 1: how raizor movies. This this holds true, right because once

1140
01:03:14,840 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 1: the cinebytes are done with you, like you are one

1141
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:19,840
Speaker 1: of them. Yeah, I guess that's true. Now, I do

1142
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 1: want to stress on a briefly serious note that while

1143
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,520
Speaker 1: we're talking about these uh possibly recognized psychological benefits of

1144
01:03:26,600 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 1: different kinds of pain, we should stress that none of

1145
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: the potential benefits of pain should be interpreted as excuses

1146
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,960
Speaker 1: to continue practices of actual self injury uh, you know,

1147
01:03:37,080 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: meaning like the deliberate damaging of your body tissues such

1148
01:03:40,240 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: as cutting or burning, if you are practicing self injury

1149
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:47,920
Speaker 1: or considering it, uh, including of course non suicidal self injury.

1150
01:03:48,280 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: This is not something to deal with on your own.

1151
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:52,880
Speaker 1: This is something that's important to talk to people about,

1152
01:03:52,920 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: talk to friends of family members or mental health professional

1153
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:58,440
Speaker 1: if at all possible. There are other ways to get

1154
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: relief from the underlying shoes that lead to this coping mechanism,

1155
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:06,000
Speaker 1: and they're far less dangerous absolutely. Um. Now, on the

1156
01:04:06,160 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 1: on the same nime, you know, we do have listeners

1157
01:04:07,680 --> 01:04:10,760
Speaker 1: who who have you know, taken part in b D

1158
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: s M. We've also heard from listeners who have done

1159
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:17,680
Speaker 1: hook suspension. But I think it's it's very important to

1160
01:04:17,760 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 1: note like these are these are avenues that one should

1161
01:04:21,400 --> 01:04:24,520
Speaker 1: you know, enter into with safety in mind. And also

1162
01:04:24,600 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 1: if you you know, if you go into any of

1163
01:04:25,920 --> 01:04:28,360
Speaker 1: these things, you know safety is going to be a

1164
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:33,120
Speaker 1: part all of those ventures, like how to essentially utilize

1165
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 1: pain without leading to that area of damage. Um of

1166
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,280
Speaker 1: you know, of injury or certainly infection. Um, so certainly

1167
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: do your research. It's also worth stressing that some levels

1168
01:04:44,400 --> 01:04:46,360
Speaker 1: of physical pain that the pain is not always the

1169
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:50,040
Speaker 1: right word, can certainly be acquired through exercise. Oh yeah,

1170
01:04:50,480 --> 01:04:52,120
Speaker 1: I mean, I just want to say one of the

1171
01:04:52,160 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 1: studies I was looking at, though, it was very clear

1172
01:04:54,760 --> 01:04:57,120
Speaker 1: to say that I think at the time exercise had

1173
01:04:57,160 --> 01:04:59,760
Speaker 1: not been found to be like a an empirically re

1174
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:04,200
Speaker 1: viable way of curing self injury pattern behavior. Uh that

1175
01:05:04,600 --> 01:05:09,200
Speaker 1: anecdotally it was often reported by patients that exercise was

1176
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 1: had been substituted for self injury. Yeah, I would say that,

1177
01:05:13,960 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 1: Like basically, if you if you were inspired by anything

1178
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: you heard here and you want to try something, well,

1179
01:05:18,680 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 1: first of all, the cold water I think is a

1180
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:23,880
Speaker 1: great avenue to consider. But also yeah, just you know,

1181
01:05:23,960 --> 01:05:26,360
Speaker 1: most levels of exercise, you know you hear about like

1182
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: feeling the burn, right, um, you know, experiencing some level

1183
01:05:30,600 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: of discomfort during a workout, and perhaps the soreness that

1184
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 1: you would experienced in the following forty eight hours. Like

1185
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,160
Speaker 1: you know, that's a I think that's that's an area

1186
01:05:40,200 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 1: where one might pursue some of what we're talking about,

1187
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 1: and that comes with a lot of added benefits for

1188
01:05:45,720 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 1: your life and your mental health as well. Right, Yeah,

1189
01:05:48,520 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: and if you're doing it right, yeah, you're not injuring

1190
01:05:50,800 --> 01:05:53,600
Speaker 1: yourself in the process. Like so much of what we're

1191
01:05:53,600 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 1: talking about, like it really resonates with with my own

1192
01:05:57,680 --> 01:06:00,480
Speaker 1: yoga practice, is that you know that, like I can

1193
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,120
Speaker 1: feel myself, you know, putting myself into this this level

1194
01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 1: of discomfort, staying clear of the area of injury, and

1195
01:06:09,120 --> 01:06:13,560
Speaker 1: in doing so, like feeling this heightened state of existence,

1196
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:16,320
Speaker 1: you know, uh, like I feel more in tune with

1197
01:06:16,440 --> 01:06:19,440
Speaker 1: my body and my surrounding and with the people in

1198
01:06:19,480 --> 01:06:22,400
Speaker 1: the room with me that are also engaging in this, uh,

1199
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: in this practice, that are also experiencing the same thing. Um,

1200
01:06:26,600 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 1: so yeah, I would I would say, yeah, don't don't

1201
01:06:29,240 --> 01:06:34,320
Speaker 1: do what what pinhead does, go to a yoga studio instead. Well,

1202
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: I would be curious in your yoga practice, do you

1203
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:41,600
Speaker 1: find the reduction of the negative aspects of self self

1204
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,440
Speaker 1: into respection and the ability to self regulate your identity

1205
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 1: processes through this the discomfort brought about in yoga. Absolutely, Yeah,

1206
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:53,520
Speaker 1: that's that's one of the main reasons I do it

1207
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:56,560
Speaker 1: for sure. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting and maybe I gotta

1208
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,320
Speaker 1: give yoga to try one of these days. Well, you

1209
01:06:59,360 --> 01:07:01,120
Speaker 1: gotta give it more one try, because I hated it

1210
01:07:01,160 --> 01:07:04,560
Speaker 1: the first time I did so. Anywhere in talent that

1211
01:07:04,600 --> 01:07:08,240
Speaker 1: does like horror yoga, like horror themed yoga. There's our

1212
01:07:08,480 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: former co host, Christian would go to a death metal yoga.

1213
01:07:13,520 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: I've heard of that. It's not the same. Yeah, you want,

1214
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: you want a full horror themed yoga, pumpkin head yoga. Yeah,

1215
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: I don't know. Well, there's there's so many forms of yoga.

1216
01:07:23,600 --> 01:07:26,560
Speaker 1: I feel like there is room for that that brand

1217
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:29,160
Speaker 1: of yoga as well. Okay, I think we may have

1218
01:07:29,280 --> 01:07:31,280
Speaker 1: done it for pain here, but I think we could

1219
01:07:31,880 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: briefly talk about skinless critters. Do you want to do that? Oh? Yeah,

1220
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:38,800
Speaker 1: well yeah. Frank in the film spends a lot of

1221
01:07:38,920 --> 01:07:42,160
Speaker 1: time skinless. You know, it comes back as a shriveled corpse,

1222
01:07:42,200 --> 01:07:44,800
Speaker 1: and then he's able to drink enough blood to regenerate,

1223
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:47,800
Speaker 1: but then he needs to acquire a new skin. He

1224
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:50,080
Speaker 1: keeps thinking he's going to get skin, but then he never.

1225
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:53,280
Speaker 1: Like one victim after another, he's like, he's got to

1226
01:07:53,320 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: have skin. This time, he's almost there, and then still

1227
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:59,360
Speaker 1: no skin, right and in the second movie, which which

1228
01:07:59,440 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 1: I have seen in a long time, but I remember

1229
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:06,480
Speaker 1: as being fun, uh grotesque. I don't know if I

1230
01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:11,160
Speaker 1: remember fun remember fun. But basically it's like it's Ernest

1231
01:08:11,200 --> 01:08:13,760
Speaker 1: goes to Hell. They go to Hell. It's not well,

1232
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: they go to Hell. Yes, but Earnest. I don't think

1233
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 1: it's quite an Earnest movie. Um, but No. In that film,

1234
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: we we encounter Frank again and we encounter Julia, and

1235
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: Julia now also has this skinless and has to acquire

1236
01:08:27,240 --> 01:08:29,759
Speaker 1: a skin, and at one point she's able to slip

1237
01:08:29,800 --> 01:08:32,840
Speaker 1: away by sort of uh you know, being like like

1238
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:38,200
Speaker 1: sort of leaving her skin behind, shedding her skin, and uh.

1239
01:08:38,680 --> 01:08:40,800
Speaker 1: It is interesting to to then look to the natural

1240
01:08:40,880 --> 01:08:43,760
Speaker 1: world and see that we do see a practice like

1241
01:08:43,920 --> 01:08:48,439
Speaker 1: this as a defense mechanism in certain organisms. We've talked

1242
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 1: about autatonomy before on the show, the amazing biological ability

1243
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 1: to shed part of one's body to facilitate a skate

1244
01:08:56,040 --> 01:09:00,519
Speaker 1: from a predator, the most classic example being a lizard

1245
01:09:00,600 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 1: shedding its tail. Yeah, you sort of give the predator

1246
01:09:04,200 --> 01:09:07,640
Speaker 1: a consolation prize, yeah, or a distraction. There are a

1247
01:09:07,680 --> 01:09:11,320
Speaker 1: few different interpretations of it. Right, It's a compromise. It

1248
01:09:11,439 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 1: gets the tail, you get to survive. But there's also

1249
01:09:14,840 --> 01:09:18,400
Speaker 1: there are also two species of African spiny mice that

1250
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 1: slouch off portions of their furry flesh when they're grabbed

1251
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:25,479
Speaker 1: by a predator. Uh So, so you know, it's one

1252
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:27,200
Speaker 1: thing to see this in a lizard, but here's a

1253
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:29,639
Speaker 1: here's a mammal that does it. And it's it's flesh.

1254
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:32,120
Speaker 1: It's not a limb that it's going to regrow. It's

1255
01:09:32,160 --> 01:09:34,920
Speaker 1: just a big portion of its skin that pulls aside.

1256
01:09:35,920 --> 01:09:39,920
Speaker 1: So as I saw explained in Nature, Uh, these self

1257
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:43,000
Speaker 1: flaying mice simply slip out of portions of their own

1258
01:09:43,120 --> 01:09:46,960
Speaker 1: hide and rapidly regrow complete suits of hair, follical skin,

1259
01:09:47,080 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 1: sweat glands for and even cartilage to fill in the gaps.

1260
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: And and we see some of that regenerative power in

1261
01:09:55,280 --> 01:09:58,720
Speaker 1: Julia Cotton in hell Raiser too. But Frank he'd never

1262
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 1: seemed to have quite learned that ability on his own.

1263
01:10:00,840 --> 01:10:04,360
Speaker 1: Now he had to steal his brother's skin. Now we

1264
01:10:04,439 --> 01:10:10,360
Speaker 1: find another rather uh skilled skin shucker, if you will,

1265
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:15,120
Speaker 1: in the form of a particular gecko species from Madagascar.

1266
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 1: Uh these are fish scaled geckos. I'm gonna attempt the

1267
01:10:20,680 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 1: species name. This is where when we need uh mark

1268
01:10:23,400 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: Mandinka in the studio. But it's a gecko Lepis megallepis.

1269
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:32,320
Speaker 1: And basically they have these giant, kind of oversized looking

1270
01:10:32,360 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 1: fish scales on their body and uh and and basically

1271
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,439
Speaker 1: if something tries to capture them, they shed the skin.

1272
01:10:38,880 --> 01:10:41,320
Speaker 1: And it actually makes it difficult to study them because

1273
01:10:41,520 --> 01:10:44,439
Speaker 1: you have to researchers have to collect specimens with special

1274
01:10:44,840 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 1: cotton based traps, and even these are are not quite

1275
01:10:48,160 --> 01:10:51,560
Speaker 1: delicate enough to prevent injury. Like they'll basically shed some

1276
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:53,400
Speaker 1: of their skin at the drop of a hat. It's

1277
01:10:53,439 --> 01:10:54,960
Speaker 1: a bumber. You need to find a way to calm

1278
01:10:55,040 --> 01:10:57,200
Speaker 1: them down before you catch them. Yeah. Well, I mean

1279
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,120
Speaker 1: but basically they're they're like I don't want to be

1280
01:10:59,200 --> 01:11:02,600
Speaker 1: caught period. Yeah, you know, so there's a lot like

1281
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: Frank in that that situation. Frank does not want to

1282
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:08,280
Speaker 1: be recaptured by the cinepipes. Uh. And of course, not

1283
01:11:08,400 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: only are these both of these these these these different

1284
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:13,519
Speaker 1: animals of the mice and the geckos, not only are

1285
01:11:13,520 --> 01:11:15,759
Speaker 1: they interesting in their own right, uh, this is another

1286
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:18,759
Speaker 1: one of those areas as with you know, lizards regrowing

1287
01:11:18,800 --> 01:11:22,320
Speaker 1: their tails and other regenerative uh powers in nature, Like,

1288
01:11:22,400 --> 01:11:25,920
Speaker 1: there is a potential here to to figure out how

1289
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:33,000
Speaker 1: to employ regenerative medical UM technology in humans down the

1290
01:11:33,080 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 1: line salamander research. Yeah, yeah, that's sort of thing. So

1291
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:38,679
Speaker 1: you know, we could reach the I don't know about

1292
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:43,120
Speaker 1: regrowing a human's complete skin, but certainly we're getting into

1293
01:11:43,200 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 1: that area of possibility. But the skin comes off really

1294
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,960
Speaker 1: easily in Hell Raiser. I don't know if you've noticed this,

1295
01:11:49,040 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 1: And in a lot of horror films, um, well, there

1296
01:11:52,320 --> 01:11:54,479
Speaker 1: are two things that happened way too easily. First of all,

1297
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,720
Speaker 1: someone can be impaled on something super easily. And then

1298
01:11:57,800 --> 01:12:00,599
Speaker 1: also and in person's entire skin can be pulled off,

1299
01:12:01,400 --> 01:12:03,880
Speaker 1: you know, with relative ease. So as far as impaling

1300
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,799
Speaker 1: and stabbing and stuff goes, horror movies seem to forget

1301
01:12:06,880 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 1: that people have bones. You ever noticed that. It's like

1302
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 1: where are the bones? Somebody trips and a table leg

1303
01:12:13,240 --> 01:12:15,880
Speaker 1: all the way through the body, like just straight through, yeah,

1304
01:12:16,040 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 1: right through all the bones in the chest, through the heart,

1305
01:12:18,920 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 1: everything is if the human body is made out of

1306
01:12:22,120 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: balsa wood. Robert, this has been mighty fun to discuss today,

1307
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: But I noticed hooks and chains emerging from the studio

1308
01:12:30,040 --> 01:12:33,680
Speaker 1: walls too. That's the sign that we have to call

1309
01:12:33,760 --> 01:12:36,960
Speaker 1: it there. Obviously, we we could continue to talk about

1310
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:39,840
Speaker 1: the nature of pain here. Uh. So hey, if you want,

1311
01:12:39,880 --> 01:12:41,679
Speaker 1: if you want more, check out some of our past

1312
01:12:41,720 --> 01:12:44,200
Speaker 1: episodes on pain. Uh and I'm sure we'll come back

1313
01:12:44,240 --> 01:12:46,320
Speaker 1: around to pain in the future. There are a number

1314
01:12:46,360 --> 01:12:48,679
Speaker 1: of things we've touched on here that we could flesh

1315
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:53,240
Speaker 1: out in a future episode. Unintended yes, yeah, I mean

1316
01:12:53,240 --> 01:12:57,360
Speaker 1: when you're talking hell Raiser, all puns are intended. So uh.

1317
01:12:57,560 --> 01:12:59,360
Speaker 1: In the meantime, if you want to check out other episodes,

1318
01:12:59,360 --> 01:13:00,840
Speaker 1: where can you find well, you can find them Stuff

1319
01:13:00,840 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. That's our website. You

1320
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:06,599
Speaker 1: can also find them wherever you get your podcasts. Uh.

1321
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,640
Speaker 1: And hey, if you're on that thing they call Facebook,

1322
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 1: you can find the Facebook group for Stuff to Blow

1323
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:14,639
Speaker 1: Your Mind. It's the Stuff to Blow your Mind discussion module.

1324
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 1: That's a fun place to interact with other listeners and

1325
01:13:19,280 --> 01:13:22,839
Speaker 1: uh and occasionally the hosts themselves. Huge thanks as always

1326
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:26,960
Speaker 1: to our excellent audio producers Seth Nicholas Johnson. Thanks Joe, Hey,

1327
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:28,800
Speaker 1: this is Seth hopping in real quick. Just to say

1328
01:13:28,800 --> 01:13:31,880
Speaker 1: a quick thank you to Annie Reese for providing the

1329
01:13:32,000 --> 01:13:34,080
Speaker 1: voice of our cinembytes at the beginning of there the

1330
01:13:34,160 --> 01:13:37,920
Speaker 1: lead Cinebytes the Proto pinhead Um. If you want to

1331
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: hear more from Annie doing awesome things with her voice,

1332
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:44,040
Speaker 1: you should listen to her podcasts that Sminty Stuff Mom

1333
01:13:44,160 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 1: Never Told You and Savor all this month. Just like

1334
01:13:47,240 --> 01:13:51,000
Speaker 1: we're doing our Halloween themed episodes, they're doing their Halloween

1335
01:13:51,040 --> 01:13:54,200
Speaker 1: themed episodes and they're all really great. There's some stuff

1336
01:13:54,360 --> 01:13:59,080
Speaker 1: on female monsters, the feminism of the Alien franchise, female

1337
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 1: serial killers, the Winchester House. Um, let's see apple cider,

1338
01:14:03,120 --> 01:14:05,719
Speaker 1: the turnips. You know turnips were the original jack lanterns.

1339
01:14:06,080 --> 01:14:07,800
Speaker 1: Just saying these are all really cool things that you

1340
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 1: will learn if you go listen to uh Annie on

1341
01:14:10,560 --> 01:14:14,439
Speaker 1: her other podcasts, Sminty and Sabor go do that. Everyone

1342
01:14:14,560 --> 01:14:16,720
Speaker 1: All right? Back to you, Joe. If you would like

1343
01:14:16,800 --> 01:14:18,560
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us with feedback on this

1344
01:14:18,680 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: episode or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

1345
01:14:21,320 --> 01:14:23,920
Speaker 1: or just to say hello, you can email us at

1346
01:14:24,400 --> 01:14:34,840
Speaker 1: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff

1347
01:14:34,880 --> 01:14:36,799
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeart Radio's

1348
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,160
Speaker 1: How Stuff Works. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio

1349
01:14:39,320 --> 01:14:41,800
Speaker 1: is at the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever

1350
01:14:41,920 --> 01:15:01,080
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows by bid. Nine is

1351
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:01,200
Speaker 1: no