WEBVTT - Preet Bharara on ’Doing Justice'

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. I'm June Grosso. Every

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<v Speaker 1>day we bring you insight and analysis into the most

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<v Speaker 1>important legal news of the day. You can find more

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<v Speaker 1>episodes of the Bloomberg Law Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud,

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<v Speaker 1>and on Bloomberg dot com slash podcasts. Pre Barra was

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<v Speaker 1>the U S Attorney for the Southern District of New

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<v Speaker 1>York for eight years. He racked up more than ninety

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<v Speaker 1>convictions for insider trading and became known as the Sheriff

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<v Speaker 1>of Wall Street. His book is entitled Doing Justice, a

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<v Speaker 1>Prosecutor's Thoughts on Crime, Punishment and the Rule of Law,

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<v Speaker 1>and he joins me now in our New York studios,

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<v Speaker 1>Thanks for coming in, Thanks for having so. The Southern

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<v Speaker 1>District has long been known for those in legal circles

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<v Speaker 1>as the most independent of federal prosecutor's offices. Now the

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<v Speaker 1>general public is starting to hear that is it independent

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<v Speaker 1>enough to bring the investigations into President Trump and those

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<v Speaker 1>around him to a proper conclusion without interference? Yeah? I

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<v Speaker 1>think so. I mean, if you if you look at

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<v Speaker 1>the book and read it, it has a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>interesting things to say about the criminal justice system and

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<v Speaker 1>about decision making. But it also reveals a lot about

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<v Speaker 1>the character, the philosophy the people in that office, how

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<v Speaker 1>they deliberate over decisions, how they decide to bring a case,

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<v Speaker 1>how they decide when appropriate and in the interests of justice,

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<v Speaker 1>to walk away from a case. So they have an

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<v Speaker 1>aggressive streak, an independent streak, but they also know color

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<v Speaker 1>within the lines. They don't do things that are inappropriate.

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<v Speaker 1>They don't defy Department of Justice policy or law. And

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<v Speaker 1>as we've been talking about for a lot of weeks

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<v Speaker 1>and months now, whether you like it or not, there

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<v Speaker 1>is a policy in the Justice Department, in an opinion

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<v Speaker 1>at the Office of Legal Counsel, the Special Subdivision of

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<v Speaker 1>the Justice Department, that says you cannot indict or prosecute

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<v Speaker 1>a sitting president. So I don't think that the Southern

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<v Speaker 1>District that I let for almost eight years will do

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<v Speaker 1>that while the president is in office. But short of that,

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<v Speaker 1>I think they'll follow the facts where they lead. They'll

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<v Speaker 1>do with the law permits, and they'll be aggressive and

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<v Speaker 1>fearless about it. But also fair is there a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of interference from main Justice when you're at the Southern

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<v Speaker 1>District and you're running the office. I wouldn't. I wouldn't

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<v Speaker 1>say interference that. You know, people want to know what's

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<v Speaker 1>going I don't know what's going on. You look the

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<v Speaker 1>Southern District of New York. Your attorney's office is within

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<v Speaker 1>the Justice Department, and there's a healthy back and forth

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<v Speaker 1>between the mothership in Washington and the office is like

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<v Speaker 1>the Southern District and others. But you know, people may

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<v Speaker 1>not appreciate this. The attorney generally United States is confirmed

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<v Speaker 1>by the Senate, nominated by the President. But so is

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<v Speaker 1>the US attorney. It's not like the Attorney General at

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<v Speaker 1>the Justice Department picks all the US attorneys. The US

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<v Speaker 1>attorneys are picked by the President and confirmed by the Senate.

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<v Speaker 1>So of course we're part of the fabric of the

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<v Speaker 1>Justice Department, and there has to be you know, back

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<v Speaker 1>and forth, and you comply with the department policies and

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<v Speaker 1>you make sure people are in the loop. But the

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<v Speaker 1>system itself, you know, creates a form of independence because

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<v Speaker 1>every single unitate attorney, for good reason, is independently appointed,

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<v Speaker 1>independently confirmed by the Senate. And the presumption is that

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<v Speaker 1>that US attorney knows within reason what you know, the

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<v Speaker 1>priority should be and the best way to use resources

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<v Speaker 1>in that particular district. If you have a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>organized crime, then you should be spending money on that

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<v Speaker 1>and resources on that. If you have you know, cyber

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<v Speaker 1>crime in your district or terrorism, then you should be

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<v Speaker 1>you know, allocating resources to those things. And generally speaking,

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<v Speaker 1>I will say that the the Washington folks generally left

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<v Speaker 1>us alone. Al Right. Speaking of when you're u S attorney,

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<v Speaker 1>you oversaw a crackdown on insider trading that was well publicized.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did those cases gained so much attention? Did they

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<v Speaker 1>merit that much attention? Probably not. Actually, maybe this will

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<v Speaker 1>surprise some people. I would go on programs like this

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<v Speaker 1>and I would be asked to press conferences like, go,

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<v Speaker 1>why are you so focused on inside of training? I said,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm not, I said, you are. You know, we have

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<v Speaker 1>a handful of people who do the insider trading cases,

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<v Speaker 1>like we had a handful of people doing public corruption cases,

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<v Speaker 1>a handful of people doing mafia cases, a handful of

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<v Speaker 1>people doing gang cases. The gang cases didn't get the

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<v Speaker 1>same attention, you know. Nope, nobody ever died and inside

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<v Speaker 1>a trading case in the gang cases. In the gang investigations,

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<v Speaker 1>they did, but there's no Bloomberg Radio on gangs. There's

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<v Speaker 1>no CNBC not to mention your competitors. I apologize, so

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<v Speaker 1>I would draw that, but but there are no there's

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<v Speaker 1>no twenty four hour networks that cover gang violence or

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<v Speaker 1>narcotics violence or terrorism unless there's an attack. So I

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<v Speaker 1>think the interest in the inside of trading cases stemmed

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<v Speaker 1>from sort of, you know, a mysteriousness about them. I

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<v Speaker 1>think there's a purin interest on the part of people,

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<v Speaker 1>whether it's good or bad, when wealthy, privileged people break

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<v Speaker 1>the law, and when they break the law in particular way,

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<v Speaker 1>which is by telling secrets. I means are trading as

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<v Speaker 1>a prime of secrets. And there were some salacious things

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<v Speaker 1>that were not relevant to the legal case, but they

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<v Speaker 1>came out during some of those cases, in those trials

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<v Speaker 1>that I think captured people's interests. I mean, there's a

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<v Speaker 1>reason why people watch the Showtime Serious Billions. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>portrays the United States Attorney for the Southeriders of New York,

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<v Speaker 1>and in various ways it is highly highly fictionalized, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, people are interested. It appears in seeing, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>the takedown of healthy, privileged people who decide that the

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<v Speaker 1>amount of money they have is not enough. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>we we charge people who had a billion dollars not enough.

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<v Speaker 1>They cheated to get a little bit more money. There's

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<v Speaker 1>something fascinating about that. And when you sent the word

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<v Speaker 1>out that, you know, Wall Street, if you're listening, we're

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<v Speaker 1>coming for you. Basically, do you think that frightened people

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<v Speaker 1>into behavior? I don't know if I don't know if

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<v Speaker 1>it frightened people. The the reason I said something like

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<v Speaker 1>that was before my time. My predecessors decided to use

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<v Speaker 1>a pretty aggressive tactic, which makes a lot of sense

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<v Speaker 1>when you realize that inside of trading is basically a

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<v Speaker 1>crime of communication. You communicate an inside tip to someone

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<v Speaker 1>else and then they act on it, they trade on it.

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<v Speaker 1>So we use wire taps, fully authorized by the statute,

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<v Speaker 1>hadn't been used before because, as I say in the book,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, lots of things seemed very obvious after the fact,

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<v Speaker 1>and you know, creative people who preceded me in the

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<v Speaker 1>Southern District began to use wire taps to pursue insider

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<v Speaker 1>trading cases, insider trading conspiracies. We pursued those further, and

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<v Speaker 1>we built on those, and we use it ourselves and

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<v Speaker 1>I thought it was important for people in Oh. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>you can decide to make a particular trade, you can

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<v Speaker 1>decide to convey inside information, but just be aware law

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<v Speaker 1>enforcement is listening and you want to have a turn

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<v Speaker 1>effect on folks. That's the correct quote. I got it

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<v Speaker 1>a little bit wrong there, paraphrasing. So you reached your

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<v Speaker 1>dream job really early in your career. I did. So

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<v Speaker 1>what's your next dream job? I know you're podcast now,

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<v Speaker 1>I know, and you're teaching at m Y you but

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<v Speaker 1>what about a judge ship or u S attorney, the

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<v Speaker 1>attorney general under a perhaps a different president. I'm spending

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<v Speaker 1>my time telling people about the book, how they should

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<v Speaker 1>read it, if they care about justice as they care

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<v Speaker 1>about truth, if they understand that what's happening in America

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<v Speaker 1>is unusual and we've got to get back to basics

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<v Speaker 1>and first principles, and if they want some page turning

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<v Speaker 1>stories about inside our training cases like you mentioned mafia cases,

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<v Speaker 1>terrorism cases. We had a case once involving the so

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<v Speaker 1>called accountable cop. And so I want to emphasize that

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<v Speaker 1>it's not a book for lawyers or for people involved

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<v Speaker 1>in criminal justice, but for everybody who has to make

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<v Speaker 1>a decision about things West, under stand what truth is

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<v Speaker 1>and who likes a good story it is. And as

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<v Speaker 1>I mentioned to you before we started on air that

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<v Speaker 1>my favorite quote is from your daughter who said, Daddy

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<v Speaker 1>stopped being such a drama queen or words for those effects.

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<v Speaker 1>Understand what that means and why that's in the book.

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<v Speaker 1>You'll have to buy one exactly Before we go, one

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<v Speaker 1>last question, what do you regret? What did you not

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<v Speaker 1>do in your role as as U S attorney. I

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<v Speaker 1>don't have any particular regret, which is not to say

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<v Speaker 1>we did everything perfectly, which is not to say I

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<v Speaker 1>didn't make mistakes. I mentioned some things in the book

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<v Speaker 1>where I thought, you know, maybe I I spoke a

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<v Speaker 1>little too valuably about a couple of things. Um, but

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<v Speaker 1>you know, I feel I feel pretty good about the tenure.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't We didn't get a conviction in every case.

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<v Speaker 1>We didn't bring every case that maybe justice would have

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<v Speaker 1>required because we didn't have the evidence. But overall, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>proud of the fact that we we kept up the

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<v Speaker 1>principle in that place, which I say in the book

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<v Speaker 1>repeatedly that was told to me, and I said to

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<v Speaker 1>them that the dimission of the places to the right thing,

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<v Speaker 1>in the right way, for the right reasons and only that,

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<v Speaker 1>and to the extent people lived up to that, and

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very proud of it. The book is doing justice

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<v Speaker 1>of prosecutor's thoughts on crime, punishment and the rule of law.

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<v Speaker 1>That's pret Berrard, thanks so much for being here. Thanks

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<v Speaker 1>for listening to the Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe

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<v Speaker 1>and listen to the show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and

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<v Speaker 1>on bloomberg dot com slash podcast. I'm June Brasso. This

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<v Speaker 1>is Bloomberg