1 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: Personally Fuelsman. Last week, I was talking to therapist Amanda 2 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 1: I all about social media and the impacts it's been 3 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:25,479 Speaker 1: having on our real lives, including in our friendships and 4 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,240 Speaker 1: how we're interacting or lack thereof, within our own communities. 5 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: So I'm giving a totally opposite perspective this week with 6 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: Raina Cohen. She's the author of the book The Other 7 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: Significant Others, and she walks the talk by communal Living, 8 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: and she's going to share how our romantic partnerships don't 9 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:43,199 Speaker 1: have to be the center of everything. She's giving perspective 10 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 1: on the importance of friendship and platonic bonds, along with 11 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: rewriting the script for how some things have been sold 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: to us when it comes to partnership and friends. Joining 13 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: me this week is Raina Cohen of the book The 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:02,520 Speaker 1: Other Significant Others. 15 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 2: Rena, how are you so glad to be able to 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:06,000 Speaker 2: talk to you? 17 00:01:06,959 --> 00:01:09,679 Speaker 1: I'm excited to have you on because this book is 18 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: really cool and I love anything that challenges a normal narrative, 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 1: and I feel like your book is really doing that 20 00:01:16,840 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: and trying to open our minds just that much further 21 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: to say, Hey, let's look at life a little bit differently, 22 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,400 Speaker 1: and one of the main things that this is focused 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: on is friendship. So having this book and writing this book, 24 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: I'd love to know where the beginning of this started 25 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:35,480 Speaker 1: and why you wrote the book. 26 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 3: It started because of a friendship that I have that 27 00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 3: really made me ask fundamental questions about what friendship even 28 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: is and what it can be. So my friend, who 29 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 3: I refer to as m she and I, especially at 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 3: the beginning of our friendship, it felt like we weren't 31 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 3: even just best friends, like that was too small of 32 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 3: a term to describe how intertwined we were in each 33 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 3: other's lives. We lived right near each other, so we 34 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: saw each other three, four or five times a week. 35 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:09,760 Speaker 3: We were really integrated into each other's day to day lives, 36 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,919 Speaker 3: but also the bigger things. We were often default plus 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 3: ones to each other's events, and you know, we both 38 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 3: had this period where we were like, what do we 39 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 3: call each other? And do we use a term like partner? 40 00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 3: And I knew of other people who had similar friendships. 41 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:30,680 Speaker 3: And then the big thing is that I knew that 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: in history there had been more intimate friendships. So the 43 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 3: combination made me want to find people who today have 44 00:02:41,560 --> 00:02:44,760 Speaker 3: such close friendships and to kind of tie them to 45 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: history as well, to see does friendship have to be 46 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:49,200 Speaker 3: the way it is now? Has it always been the 47 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:51,400 Speaker 3: way it is now? And what might be possible? 48 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned history, and I would just love 49 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 1: to know some of those examples of seeing you posts 50 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 1: some of them and talk about some of them before, 51 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:04,000 Speaker 1: but because again I don't even think I know some 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: of these things. 53 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,639 Speaker 2: When I saw your videos, I was like, wait, what so. 54 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: Some of those examples of things happening in history that 55 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,120 Speaker 1: maybe we didn't quite get the full story? 56 00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 2: Can you share some of those? 57 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I guess one thing is like, let's start 58 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: with how we think about friendship now, and we think 59 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,840 Speaker 3: of it as this secondary relationship that is behind marriage. 60 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 3: It's not kind of your most emotionally intimate relationship, and 61 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:31,120 Speaker 3: it's often temporary, and that was not the way things 62 00:03:31,160 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 3: necessarily were in the past. So one example that I 63 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 3: find kind of incredible is this process called horn brotherhood, 64 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 3: where across the world men would go into churches and 65 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 3: they would be blessed by a priest and put when 66 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 3: they would put their hands on the gospels, and they 67 00:03:49,840 --> 00:03:53,640 Speaker 3: would pledge to a friend, a male friend, to become 68 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: brothers for life, and some of those men ended up 69 00:03:56,520 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 3: being buried together. And there are versions of this all 70 00:03:59,560 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 3: across the world. And that was a former friendship that 71 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 3: was publicly recognized, which we don't do now, and it 72 00:04:07,040 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 3: was really treated with a lot of gravity. And you know, 73 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:12,760 Speaker 3: the other example, which is the one that I had 74 00:04:12,800 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 3: known a little bit about at the time when Am 75 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: and I were trying to understand the nature of our friendship, 76 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 3: is called romantic friendship. So these lasted from you know, seventeenth, 77 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,159 Speaker 3: eighteenth to nineteenth century. You would see these very intimate 78 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,920 Speaker 3: same sex friendships, both between men and between women, and 79 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 3: there is a level of gushing, is one way to 80 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:36,880 Speaker 3: put it, and open heartedness that I think would strike 81 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: a lot of people as today in a place like 82 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 3: the US is quite remarkable, especially when you see in 83 00:04:41,960 --> 00:04:45,120 Speaker 3: among men. One of the lines that I remember from 84 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,000 Speaker 3: a letter exchange between two men is this man saying 85 00:04:48,040 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 3: that the last pulsations of my heart will vibrate for you. 86 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 3: And this was no big deal if you just put 87 00:04:53,960 --> 00:04:56,479 Speaker 3: it in a letter. And one of the kind of 88 00:04:56,800 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: issues today and that happened around the turn of the 89 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 3: twentieth century, is that any kind of same sex intimacy 90 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 3: has been coded as potentially queer like as homosexual desire, 91 00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 3: and that was just not the case for. 92 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: Centuries and centuries. 93 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,520 Speaker 3: It created more opportunity for both men and women to 94 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 3: have intimate same sex friendships without there being any kind 95 00:05:20,080 --> 00:05:23,159 Speaker 3: of suspicion or consequences or stigma attached to it. So 96 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 3: friendships got to flourish more. 97 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: Well, when you say that and you're talking about these 98 00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:30,320 Speaker 1: things in history that obviously we're way back. 99 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 2: When why is it now. 100 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:36,600 Speaker 1: That we're so focused on our live centering around our 101 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: romantic partnership being out of the cineria? 102 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:39,279 Speaker 2: What changed? 103 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 3: I kind of imagine two lines criss crossing where you 104 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 3: have friendship is diminishing and its importance as the closeness 105 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: in friendship becomes suspect that you have all this basically 106 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 3: the mention of homosexuality and heterosexuality around the turn of 107 00:05:57,080 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 3: the twentieth century. Like we think of those things as 108 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 3: always existing, but they didn't in the way that we 109 00:06:01,160 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 3: now think of them as as identities. So friendship is 110 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 3: on the decline, and marriage, which used to be a 111 00:06:08,520 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 3: really transactional based relationship that's basically like an economic trade 112 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:18,320 Speaker 3: where families are getting new in laws and there's a 113 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 3: kind of exchange happening between husbands and wives. Then we 114 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,280 Speaker 3: start to think about love as being not just a 115 00:06:26,320 --> 00:06:30,400 Speaker 3: bonus in marriage, but actually something that's foundational to it. 116 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 3: And if you fast forward to the last few decades, 117 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 3: it's not just that we expect marriages to be filled 118 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,919 Speaker 3: with love, but also that person is going to be 119 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 3: your best friend. We've really like eclipsed to the role 120 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 3: of friendship and made that part of what a romantic 121 00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:51,039 Speaker 3: relationship is. See the way that marriages and friendships have 122 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 3: changed as happening in tandem or very connected to each other. 123 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:57,159 Speaker 3: Because the larger the role that marriage plays, the last 124 00:06:57,200 --> 00:07:00,200 Speaker 3: role there is for friendship and vice versa. 125 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:02,920 Speaker 1: And do you think it's because we've really intertwined the 126 00:07:02,960 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: two that it has had such an impact on us thinking, Okay, 127 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: once I find this romantic partner, then I don't need 128 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: friends or I don't have time for friends. Has that 129 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: been that change that you've studied and experienced of I 130 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: have this, now I don't need this, when I know 131 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: personally that's not the case. 132 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 2: Those things are not interchangeable. The kind of. 133 00:07:26,680 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 3: Underlying logic that there is this one person who is 134 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:34,360 Speaker 3: going to make you fulfilled, who will turn you into 135 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:38,440 Speaker 3: a successful adult. I think it's very rare that if 136 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: you're hanging around, let's say you're like a big family reunion, 137 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 3: are people really going to ask about who are your 138 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 3: closest friends these days? Are you like feeling fulfilled in 139 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 3: your friendships? Or we'll see being fulfilled in your friendships 140 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 3: as a mark of a good life, even though when 141 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 3: you actually ask people about who matters to them, they 142 00:07:57,120 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 3: will probably talk about the friendships in their lives. I 143 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: think there is a bit of a disconnect between what 144 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 3: a lot of people experience and what we are told matters. 145 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,679 Speaker 3: And if your spouse is supposed to be your best friend, 146 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 3: that just doesn't leave a lot of room for your 147 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 3: best friend. And if your spouse is supposed to be 148 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 3: the person who you share everything with, then the idea 149 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 3: that you go off and have other hobbies with friends, 150 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,760 Speaker 3: or that there are other things that you really connect 151 00:08:25,840 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 3: other people over, then that might be as a problem 152 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 3: to connect with people who are not your spouse in 153 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 3: a way that really matters. And that's where you get 154 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,439 Speaker 3: sort of things like an emotional affair or I think 155 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 3: possessiveness is also connected to this, that people expect their 156 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 3: partners to be the one and only person and that 157 00:08:45,000 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 3: they should have access to them at full at all times, 158 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 3: that there's a competition for anybody else who might grab 159 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: their attention. 160 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: So I'm curious, because you're writing this book and you 161 00:08:55,760 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: talking about this, how did you make sure you didn't 162 00:08:59,160 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: fall into the trap. I don't want to call it 163 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: a trap, because some people might be super happy, but 164 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: for lack of a better trap, where we fall into 165 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: the same experience that we've been conditioned to believe is. 166 00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: The only experience. How did you not fall into that? 167 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,360 Speaker 1: You live a lifestyle that is very much you're practicing 168 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: what you preach. 169 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I think of a couple of early memories. 170 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 3: One that really set me on our trajectory. I think 171 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:25,839 Speaker 3: to be very intentional about not letting a romantic relationship 172 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 3: be the only relationship that really mattered in my life. 173 00:09:30,160 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: When I was a teenager, I saw a relative end 174 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 3: up in a long romantic relationship and it ended kind 175 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 3: of surprisingly, and he, after those years of being with 176 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 3: that partner, didn't really have anybody else because he'd put 177 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 3: everything into that one relationship. And then you know, when 178 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 3: I was in college, a friend that was very close 179 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:57,600 Speaker 3: to basically disappeared as as a friend when she entered 180 00:09:57,600 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 3: into a romantic relationship, which I found hard, and then subsequently, 181 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:03,600 Speaker 3: any time we spent together she would bring her partner. 182 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:08,160 Speaker 3: And so I thought, with those two experiences, want I 183 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 3: didn't want the fragility of putting all of your eggs 184 00:10:11,480 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 3: in one basket. And then on the flip side, I 185 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 3: didn't want to do to other people what I had 186 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,599 Speaker 3: experienced being done to me, which was being basically demoted. 187 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: And I didn't necessarily think that was great. It wasn't 188 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: great for me, and I didn't necessarily think it was 189 00:10:24,800 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: great for the friend. So and this all predates working 190 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: on the book, but those experiences made me really want 191 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: to nurture friendships, and I always cared a lot about 192 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: about friendships. And then I think with the man I 193 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,040 Speaker 3: ended up marrying, we had really similar values. And one 194 00:10:38,040 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 3: of the things that drew me to him from the 195 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: get go was how close he was to his college 196 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 3: friends and how much work he put into those relationships. 197 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 3: And we made a point like we didn't spend every 198 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:54,720 Speaker 3: night at each other's apartments, like we had time for 199 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:00,000 Speaker 3: ourselves and have adopted a principle from other people know 200 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 3: that the individuals together and to nurture our community. So 201 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 3: our romantic relationship is structured around having other people that 202 00:11:08,160 --> 00:11:11,160 Speaker 3: we are close to and cultivating and encouraging those relationships 203 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 3: with one another or encouraging each other's relationships kind of 204 00:11:15,040 --> 00:11:18,800 Speaker 3: beyond our marriage. 205 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you mentioned this, and because you guys even 206 00:11:22,880 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: went a step further than that, you were doing this 207 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: in the beginning stages of your dating. You guys got 208 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,000 Speaker 1: married and you live with some of your friends and 209 00:11:30,040 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: their kids, and you're experiencing communal living, which is out 210 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,679 Speaker 1: of the ordinary to most people when they hear it. 211 00:11:37,800 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: So you guys really adapted this entire lifestyle change that 212 00:11:43,120 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: you're preaching genuinely. 213 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 2: And I'm so curious what that experience. 214 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: Has been like for you to do it, because I 215 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: think talking about it is how we open up minds 216 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: and people start to understand and see what their options 217 00:11:55,360 --> 00:11:55,680 Speaker 1: could be. 218 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,080 Speaker 3: So, yeah, my husband and I have lived in communal 219 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 3: setups for I guess four years now and in a 220 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 3: couple different configurations. So for three years we lived with 221 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,679 Speaker 3: two close friends and they're initially one kid and then 222 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 3: they had a second child while we were living together, 223 00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 3: and we knew that was a kind of limited time 224 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:17,400 Speaker 3: situation because our friends were going to have to leave 225 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 3: for their jobs eventually, which they did, but we still 226 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 3: have a group chat that we were all texting in 227 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 3: and we're going to stay with them in a couple 228 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 3: of weeks, and we're getting dispatches about the kids. And 229 00:12:27,280 --> 00:12:30,079 Speaker 3: we really loved that experience and wanted to continue living 230 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 3: with close friends if we could, and basically recruited a 231 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:37,880 Speaker 3: friend of ours to come and move to DC and 232 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:39,839 Speaker 3: move into the house that we've been in, and then 233 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,720 Speaker 3: we had another. Anyway, it's just grown and now we 234 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 3: have two more friends all living together, and then we 235 00:12:45,360 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 3: continue to enjoy the experience and now are in a 236 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 3: group of people, including my current housemates, who are looking 237 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: to create a sort of I guess community or I 238 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 3: was gonna say compound, but that makes it sound maybe 239 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: a little crazier than They're a group of us who 240 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 3: want to live together and then also be a sort 241 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 3: of anchor for a neighborhood where we could get more 242 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 3: friends to move very close by. And part of that 243 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 3: is there are several people who want to have children 244 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:12,240 Speaker 3: and want to do that in a way that doesn't 245 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,080 Speaker 3: feel isolating, and parenthood is one of the hardest times 246 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 3: to maintain friendships. And we've seen how people who have 247 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 3: done a lot of work on the front end to 248 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 3: live near their friends have had much more support and 249 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: much more fun in what can be a kind of 250 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 3: isolating time of life. 251 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:28,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, I think it's so cool what you 252 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: guys are doing, and I think it's awesome that you 253 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 1: can share your experiences and people can feel more comfortable 254 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: about making choices that are different than what we are 255 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: used to, and that's how we change normal. That's how 256 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 1: we change this definition of well, this is normal and 257 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,280 Speaker 1: that's not normal. 258 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: So I think it's really cool, that's awesome. 259 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: I'm curious your thoughts for those people who say you 260 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 1: had the experience with your friend where they got into 261 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 1: a relationship and you never saw them again, or they 262 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: had kids. 263 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: And they never saw you again. 264 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: How do people avoid that happening in their friendships and 265 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: relationships and. 266 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 2: Why is it necessary to avoid that happening. 267 00:14:13,040 --> 00:14:16,400 Speaker 3: You can't control other people's behavior if they disappear, But 268 00:14:16,480 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 3: I think what you can do is take seriously what 269 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,920 Speaker 3: you feel, and that's not necessarily going to be kind 270 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 3: of endorsed by the world around you. But what I 271 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 3: found when I was talking to people who would experience 272 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 3: losses in friendship, whether it was falling out or like 273 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 3: a friend falling off the space of the earth when 274 00:14:34,880 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 3: with a romantic relationship, is that they were not getting 275 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,240 Speaker 3: from the world around them any kind of recognition that 276 00:14:42,280 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 3: the loss really hurt and it was hard for them 277 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 3: to appreciate how difficult it was, and that they've sort 278 00:14:48,160 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 3: of felt like, I've just got to get over it, 279 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 3: and that makes the whole situation worse. So I think 280 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 3: if someone is on the receiving end where friends disappear, 281 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: to honor that that's difficult, and once you do that, 282 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 3: it becomes possible then to maybe open a conversation with 283 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,160 Speaker 3: the friend and not see it as inevitable. 284 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 2: And let's say. 285 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 3: It's the situation where there's a romantic partner who comes 286 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 3: in and you can say, I'm excited for you. I 287 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 3: know there's this really thrilling honeymoon period, but I also 288 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 3: think our friendship is really important and I want us 289 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 3: to maintain it, and I want you to understand where 290 00:15:26,760 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 3: I'm coming from, and I'm saying this because I really 291 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 3: care about our friendship. So I think in order to 292 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 3: ask something of someone else and to tell them that 293 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:36,920 Speaker 3: you are having a hard time, like you need to 294 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 3: tell yourself that it is okay to be having a 295 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 3: hard time and that it's not just the way things 296 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 3: have to be. And then if you are in the 297 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: position where, let's say you enter a romantic relationship, you 298 00:15:48,160 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: can choose not to isolate yourself and you can make 299 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 3: choices to nurture friendships. You can make it a value 300 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 3: within the romantic relationship that you are going to have 301 00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 3: other people in your life who really matter to you, 302 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 3: that it is also good for the relationship. There is 303 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 3: research on this that romantic relationships are stronger when people 304 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 3: have other close friends that they can turn to. Diversify 305 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 3: your portfolio in all areas of life. So those would 306 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 3: be some of my recommendations so that people both don't 307 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 3: kind of undermine their friendships and don't undermine their own 308 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 3: experiences of hardship in friendship because it really can be difficult. 309 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 1: I'm so curious the studies on this because I'm thirty one, 310 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,440 Speaker 1: I'm now in a relationship, but I wasn't for a 311 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: really long time, and I struggled a lot with the 312 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: fact that I had so many friends who really saw 313 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: their relationships as the end all be all and their 314 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: life couldn't exist without it, And I was just sitting 315 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,040 Speaker 1: there like, well, we have a lot of fun. 316 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,239 Speaker 2: We do a lot of cool stuff. I don't understand 317 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: why this is just the end all be all kind 318 00:16:54,680 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 2: of thing. 319 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: So I always did have this different mindset of, well, 320 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,880 Speaker 1: it'll happen when it's supposed to happen, and until then 321 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: and after then, I will be just fine and I 322 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: will have all the things that I have right now. 323 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: But that's not a very common mindset to have. And 324 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: I'm curious one on the research of making sure it's 325 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: important for your relationship to continue these things, because I 326 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 2: feel that way. But I'm also just curious your thought 327 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,920 Speaker 2: process for all of my single people out there who 328 00:17:24,960 --> 00:17:26,919 Speaker 2: may have been in a similar set of shoes that 329 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 2: I was in. And I really struggled with that because 330 00:17:30,440 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 2: nobody was understanding me, which is also how and why 331 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:36,040 Speaker 2: I stumbled on you. I was like, I need to 332 00:17:36,080 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 2: bring her on to have this conversation. 333 00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,399 Speaker 3: There's a way that American society really belittles single people 334 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:45,239 Speaker 3: and treats them as not quite full adults and that 335 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 3: your life will arrive once you have found a romantic partner, 336 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 3: and that is it terrible is a terrible way for 337 00:17:54,800 --> 00:17:57,760 Speaker 3: society to be you people, and then inevitably you internalize 338 00:17:57,760 --> 00:18:00,239 Speaker 3: some of it, like what is wrong with me or 339 00:18:00,320 --> 00:18:03,679 Speaker 3: my life hasn't really started yet. I just think a 340 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,119 Speaker 3: really unfortunate and unfair way for single people to have 341 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,639 Speaker 3: to live. It's just wrong. Like you can have a 342 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:14,720 Speaker 3: full life without a romantic partnership, you can also have 343 00:18:14,760 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 3: a really sad life with a romantic partnership. I think 344 00:18:17,240 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 3: there's the focus on quality rather than do you check 345 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 3: this box is probably a wiser thing to do. And then, 346 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 3: in terms of people who might benefit from thinking a 347 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 3: little bit differently about the role of a romantic partner 348 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: in their life, there is research, for instance, showing that 349 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 3: people who have kind of robust support networks outside of 350 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 3: their marriage are happier in their marriages than those who 351 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 3: do not have those support networks. There's also a research 352 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 3: that checked how stressed people got in marital conflicts, and 353 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: people who had these other close relationships in their lives 354 00:18:53,440 --> 00:18:57,280 Speaker 3: experienced less of a spike in cortisol, the stress hormone 355 00:18:57,320 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 3: than people who did not have those sorts of robust 356 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 3: support networks. So it's not good to expect that one 357 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 3: person is going to be everything. And I think that 358 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 3: if people recognize that about their own romantic relationships, it 359 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:19,639 Speaker 3: might help them not belittle the people who are not 360 00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 3: in romantic partnerships and provide so much sustenance to their lives. 361 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:25,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 362 00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:29,200 Speaker 1: And so it leads me into this next moment of 363 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:32,800 Speaker 1: how do we become better friends? 364 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 2: How can we show up better? How can we be the. 365 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: Friend that we wanted to have that you and I 366 00:19:37,560 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: are speaking on experiences of we wish we had a 367 00:19:40,160 --> 00:19:43,119 Speaker 1: better friend in that moment, how can we ensure we 368 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:44,600 Speaker 1: are being that friend? 369 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 3: Sort Of related to what we've been talking about. I 370 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 3: think one thing that's really helpful is not to create 371 00:19:50,440 --> 00:19:53,840 Speaker 3: these really strict lines between what does a romantic partner do, 372 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:55,520 Speaker 3: what does a friend do? What does family do? 373 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 2: And to really to. 374 00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,000 Speaker 3: Think about I have friends going through some very difficult 375 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,160 Speaker 3: things at the moment, and instead of trying to figure out, 376 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 3: like what is the role that I should play according 377 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 3: to my title, it's more what do these people need 378 00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,479 Speaker 3: and do I care about them, and what can I 379 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 3: do that I have capacity reasonable capacity to do to 380 00:20:17,240 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 3: support them and not treat friends like well somebody else 381 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 3: who's closer to them should figure it out. Like being 382 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 3: a friend means being there for the difficult times as 383 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:30,760 Speaker 3: well as the good times. I also think being a 384 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 3: good friend means making time like that is where what 385 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,360 Speaker 3: you put on your calendar, I think is where your 386 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 3: values are. And I have found it is much easier 387 00:20:41,600 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 3: to become close to people and therefore know what is 388 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 3: happening in their lives when you have regular contact. And 389 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 3: one way to do that is just to put regular 390 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 3: time on the calendar with people. I mean this sounds 391 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 3: extremely simple, but it makes a difference between actually being 392 00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 3: a part of someone's life or or having them be 393 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 3: intermittently involved. And the distinction I like to think of 394 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 3: is are you moving through life together or are you 395 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,960 Speaker 3: narrating life after the fact, So either frequency or just 396 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 3: making decisions about how you spend time together, like you're 397 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 3: going to go on grocery runs or you're going to 398 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: do things where you're out in the world spending time 399 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:22,399 Speaker 3: together where you're going to have experiences that you will 400 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 3: recall and you get to sort of be entangled in 401 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: the day to day versus every six weeks, we're going 402 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,640 Speaker 3: to have coffee and we're going to tell us tell 403 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 3: each other what happened in the last six weeks, rather 404 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:35,640 Speaker 3: than experiencing something in an active way. 405 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: Oh I love that saying that you just said. That 406 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: hits home because there are some friendships where you recall 407 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,800 Speaker 1: and it's so beautiful, but you aren't connected in everyday 408 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,600 Speaker 1: life and there are these different experiences that you're having. 409 00:21:49,280 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: And I think it's really awesome that we as people 410 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,920 Speaker 1: can choose to have this ability to show up in 411 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: the ways that we need too, Like you ultimately get 412 00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: to make the decision and the choice of how you're 413 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: going to show up for people. And you just reiterated that, 414 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: and that saying really did that. And I also noted 415 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: for myself because me and all of my friends on 416 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: a day to day basis, when we catch each other 417 00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: on a phone call or a text, we're like, Okay, 418 00:22:18,840 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: put it in the calendar. 419 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 2: When are we seeing each other next? Like, put it in. 420 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 2: We're not. 421 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 1: I don't care if it has to be two weeks 422 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 1: from now. Put it in and then it's in and 423 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: we can't go back on that. Like it's in the calendar, 424 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: it means it's happening. And it's funny because as an adult, 425 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 1: I never would have thought I'd have to use my 426 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: calendar as a social calendar as well, like physically social calendar. 427 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 1: But it's been really important to ensure that I am 428 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: always there and I'm always showing up even when I 429 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: do show up in other ways and in the normal 430 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: moments and talking to everybody each day or interacting with them, 431 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: it's no put it on the calendar. So I make 432 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:56,359 Speaker 1: sure I see you face to face no matter what, 433 00:22:57,119 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 1: and that has made us significant difference for me and 434 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: being able to show up as my whole self and 435 00:23:04,840 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: for them to show up in a way. So it's 436 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:08,120 Speaker 1: funny that you mentioned the calendar. 437 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 3: The other kind of suggestion I would have is be 438 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 3: more like like a kid in how you approach friends. 439 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: One thing that is I've described already one part of this, 440 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 3: which is go experience things together rather than talk about 441 00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 3: it after the fact. I mean, so many of my 442 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,159 Speaker 3: friendships as a kid was like coming up with games 443 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 3: together or like going on adventures. And then another part 444 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 3: of it, I think, maybe especially for girl you know 445 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,639 Speaker 3: they might have had experiences with is really like celebrating 446 00:23:40,680 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 3: the friendship in the way that we are used to 447 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 3: celebrating romantic relationships. People celebrate anniversaries. There are rituals around 448 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: romantic relationships, and as kids, there often are rituals around 449 00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,639 Speaker 3: friendship again, and probably more so for girls and for boys. 450 00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 3: But like friendship bracelets, you know, there might like secret handshakes, 451 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 3: other kinds of playful ways is that kids will come 452 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,240 Speaker 3: up with. And I think bringing some of that, that 453 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 3: ceremony and that sort of excitement about the friendship as 454 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 3: an entity that you want to talk about and preserve 455 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: is also a really great way to enrich a friendship 456 00:24:19,200 --> 00:24:19,879 Speaker 3: as an adult. 457 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,320 Speaker 1: I just had some of my best friends visiting, who 458 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,320 Speaker 1: we all now live in different cities, and we were 459 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: sitting at dinner and talking about the sisterhood of traveling pants, and. 460 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 2: We were like, what can be our pair of genes? 461 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: What can we start sending to each other and sending 462 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: back and forth and it be this very exciting You 463 00:24:38,800 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: get snail mail every so often, and it's this thing 464 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 1: that we're passing back to each other to stay close. 465 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: And we had just talked about that and that movie 466 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 1: is such a good example of finding ways to connect 467 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,560 Speaker 1: even if you can't connect in the most normal, everyday ways. 468 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: I think there's like a kind of aig zoos about 469 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:05,359 Speaker 3: friendship that you see in like among adolescents, and like 470 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 3: young kids do that maybe it doesn't feel like as 471 00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,199 Speaker 3: okay to express as an adult. And yeah, if you 472 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 3: love your friend, it's like love your be clear about 473 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,159 Speaker 3: that and spend a lot of time on it and 474 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 3: come up with ways to feel connected and come up 475 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,560 Speaker 3: with things that feel special between the two of you 476 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 3: or the group of you. 477 00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:35,200 Speaker 1: When speaking of connection, I had seen you say opportunities 478 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:39,400 Speaker 1: for career and connection are often hidden in plain sight, 479 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: and that really resonated with me. So I'd love to 480 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: have you expand on that a little bit more because 481 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,040 Speaker 1: I do often think, much like we always say in 482 00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,000 Speaker 1: romantic relationships. 483 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: You'll find somebody when you're not looking. 484 00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: I do think similar things happen when it comes to 485 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: other aspects of our life. 486 00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 3: Well, what this makes me think of is like when 487 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 3: on Saturday is I take off from technology. I don't 488 00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 3: use my phone, and it makes me a little bit 489 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: of an observer of the rest of the world, where 490 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 3: I just see everybody head down, looking at their phones 491 00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 3: and not interacting with the people around them. So I mean, 492 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 3: one obvious thing is if you're getting out of your house, 493 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 3: which I hope people are spending time like not just 494 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,399 Speaker 3: in their homes all day. There are people that you 495 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:24,320 Speaker 3: can interact with, who you can chat up, and is 496 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 3: certainly an opportunity to get to know people. But I 497 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 3: think there's a chance not just to meet new people, 498 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 3: but to have closer friendships. And maybe we have been 499 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:37,040 Speaker 3: told and that involved was taking some risks and maybe 500 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:42,640 Speaker 3: inviting people to spend time together or doing things basically 501 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 3: to escalate the friendship that might get you rejected. And 502 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 3: we know that rejection is part of the process for 503 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,000 Speaker 3: romantic relationships, but we're not really like given the same 504 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 3: expectations I think about friendship that you have to make overtures. 505 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 3: I think if someone came to you and said I 506 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 3: really want a romantic partner, but like nobody's asking me out, 507 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 3: no one's approaching me, you'd probably say, like, well, are 508 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: you getting out of dating app are you asking anybody out? 509 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,080 Speaker 3: What are you contributing? But I have heard for friendship 510 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 3: a lot of you know, well, nobody nobody talks to me, 511 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 3: or like, nobody's asking me to hang out, and it's like, well, 512 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 3: what are you asking people. 513 00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:20,639 Speaker 1: To hang out? 514 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 3: Are you setting up gatherings? Are you taking risks? So 515 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 3: I actually think that one way to kind of make 516 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 3: friendships wrong or is to take some of the expectations 517 00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:34,760 Speaker 3: that come from the rewards and difficulties of the dating 518 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,960 Speaker 3: world and applying that to friendship. 519 00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really good. 520 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: And so much of what you're talking about too, just 521 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: reminds me a lot of my friendships and how they 522 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,679 Speaker 1: have formed over the course of time. One friend formed 523 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: because I started talking to her. She was a trainer 524 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:52,480 Speaker 1: at a gym I started working out at, and we 525 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: just slowly kept having more and more conversations. And one 526 00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:00,680 Speaker 1: of my best friends that I've known for over seventeen 527 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: years is somebody who we were dating the same guy, 528 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: and then we teamed up and we're like, yeah, we 529 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: don't need this guy. We've been best friends ever since. 530 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,919 Speaker 1: And so many of my friendships have similar stories of that, 531 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 1: where they were just coming from unexpected places and had 532 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: I not been open to the idea of just accepting 533 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,639 Speaker 1: a new person, And these were all different phases of 534 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: my life. 535 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:24,680 Speaker 2: None of them were one and the same. 536 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 1: They weren't all when I was a kid, or in 537 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 1: college or now as an adult. They're all over And 538 00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: had I been just closed off to so many of 539 00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: those experiences as a human being, I wouldn't have these 540 00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: incredible friendships who have gotten me through so much of 541 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:40,040 Speaker 1: my life. 542 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 3: Well yeah, I mean I loved two women dating one 543 00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 3: man and they're like, yeah, let's throw this one out. 544 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's our funny friendship stoy that we still love 545 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: telling you the stake because we're like, had we both 546 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: not dated a really stupid idiot, we would not be 547 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 1: best friends. And honestly, that's just meant to be for 548 00:28:58,240 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 1: how life works out. Sometimes it is one of our 549 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:01,920 Speaker 1: favorite stories. 550 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 2: And I just I. 551 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: Love this importance of friendship and so much of what 552 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: you're focusing on, because truly, I do look at my 553 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:15,520 Speaker 1: friendships and there are so many parts of my life 554 00:29:15,720 --> 00:29:18,120 Speaker 1: that I don't know that I would have genuinely made 555 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,480 Speaker 1: it through had I not created and fostered and really 556 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: supported those friendships. Even when I'm super busy, there's still 557 00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 1: moments of my life where I'm like, how do I 558 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: check in? How do I show up even if I 559 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 1: can't show up in a way that I really want to. 560 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: How do I make sure this person knows that I'm 561 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: always here and I'm always going to support them. And 562 00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: that's been such a big piece of who I am 563 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: as a friend that and people will ask me all 564 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:46,400 Speaker 1: the time on social media, how do you do it? 565 00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:47,720 Speaker 1: How do you make it all the time? How are 566 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:48,080 Speaker 1: you doing this? 567 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: I'm like, I have to. 568 00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: These people are a priority for me and if I 569 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: don't do this, I would be lost without them. And 570 00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 1: I think that's pretty uncommon for a lot of people 571 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,200 Speaker 1: to say say about friendships. 572 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,960 Speaker 3: I do think some people feel this. I certainly know 573 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,840 Speaker 3: that people believe their friendships, especially if they talk to 574 00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 3: people who are older, who they really lived through a 575 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 3: lot of life, like they have deep appreciation for their friendship, 576 00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 3: but the messaging out in the world does not align 577 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 3: with the experience that so many people have. So then 578 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,320 Speaker 3: for those who are maybe personally have not had such 579 00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 3: close friendships, and it's confusing to them and it feels 580 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:36,840 Speaker 3: like an outlier. But we aren't necessarily widely talking about 581 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 3: how much our friends mean to us, and you just 582 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: sort of get locked into these cycles, like when you 583 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 3: are catching up with somebody, do you ask them about 584 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 3: their romantic partner, how they they're doing? Probably do you 585 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 3: ask how their closest friends are doing? Maybe, like in 586 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:54,760 Speaker 3: my life, I do. But I think for a lot 587 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 3: of people wouldn't necessarily occur to them that knowing about 588 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 3: their platonic social life is an essential part of understanding 589 00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 3: where that person is at the moment, what matters to them. 590 00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:09,480 Speaker 3: And if you're not asking the questions, you're not getting 591 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 3: that information, and you're not necessarily understanding what other people's 592 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,800 Speaker 3: experiences might be. And that maybe you should go out 593 00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 3: and try to invest more in the friendships in your life. 594 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,600 Speaker 3: And I can see how people might be surprised because 595 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 3: we don't really have the conditions to see if this 596 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 3: is a relatively common thing. 597 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:31,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, and you say that, And it's funny. 598 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: The friend that I was mentioning and telling you the 599 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,440 Speaker 1: story of how we met dating the same guy. 600 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 2: Every time that we talk. 601 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: To each other, we don't live in the same city, 602 00:31:38,480 --> 00:31:41,040 Speaker 1: but every time we're like, Okay, well, how's. 603 00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:42,719 Speaker 2: Your family, how is so and so? 604 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 1: And we'll mention each other's friends that live in those cities, 605 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: what's going on with them? 606 00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: And until you just said that in this moment, I 607 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 2: didn't realize that wasn't normal. I thought we were supposed 608 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: to talk about what was going on in each other's lives, 609 00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 2: and part of that is your friendships. 610 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:02,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, some people do, it's like if you, but it's 611 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 3: not necessarily an instinct for everybody. And there's certainly people 612 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 3: in my life who are very maybe centered around their 613 00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,480 Speaker 3: romantic partnerships, and they would ask about a partner or 614 00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 3: are you dating? And family and work like that's the trifecta, 615 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 3: and it wouldn't necessarily occur to them. I mean, at 616 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 3: this point, people know friendship matters to me, but like 617 00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 3: I know, for some people just it just would rise 618 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:24,960 Speaker 3: to the surface. And again, like they're not necessarily getting 619 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,600 Speaker 3: depictions in pop culture that's say, to have a good life, 620 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,440 Speaker 3: like you really needed to be paying attention to your 621 00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 3: friends or your friends or an essential part of your life. 622 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 3: Or when you think about where you're going to live, 623 00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 3: you don't just think about your job and your family, 624 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 3: you can also think about where your friends are. It's 625 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 3: kind of coming through different channels. We're not necessarily getting 626 00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 3: the reinforcement that this is a really essential part of 627 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 3: a good life. 628 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:48,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. 629 00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: And I thought of something as you're sharing this, and 630 00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: I just love your take on it. Based on this 631 00:32:55,520 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: entire conversation, there's obviously this really narrative around opposite sex 632 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 1: friendships and people not being able, like boys and girls 633 00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: can't be friends, they can't just be friends. 634 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on that. 635 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:12,680 Speaker 1: Because that's a hot topic that a lot of people 636 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,200 Speaker 1: just really love to nail in the coffin. 637 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, wasn't when Harry met Sally like thirty years ago, 638 00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:22,480 Speaker 3: and we're still having this conversation. One of the piece 639 00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:25,960 Speaker 3: feedback or outreach I've gotten very commonly after the book 640 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 3: came out was like, do you have stories of opposite 641 00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,640 Speaker 3: sex friends who have this kind of really intense friendship, 642 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 3: which is like the focus of the book. And I do. 643 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 3: I have examples, but I think what people are particularly 644 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:41,520 Speaker 3: interested in, or like friendships between a straight man and 645 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: a straight woman and how those fair. And some of 646 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 3: the messages I've gotten from people or people coming up 647 00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 3: to tell my stories or like I have this really 648 00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 3: close friendship but other people don't understand it, or the 649 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 3: wife was jealous and we had to scale back, or 650 00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:00,680 Speaker 3: whatever the case is, so it's been an a little 651 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,040 Speaker 3: shocking to me that this is still such a big issue, 652 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:08,120 Speaker 3: and it feels kind of inextricably connected to the idea 653 00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:11,000 Speaker 3: that your romantic partner should be your everything, because it 654 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 3: creates a sense of competition that let's say there's a 655 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 3: husband is jealous of a wife's best friend who's a man, 656 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,960 Speaker 3: that if you didn't have this idea that they're that 657 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,520 Speaker 3: you're failing as a partner, if you're not everything to them, 658 00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 3: that it might not be seen as so threatening to 659 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 3: know that there's somebody else that they're close to. And 660 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,320 Speaker 3: the other thing is that I came to understand and 661 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 3: working on the book, is that we really conflate different 662 00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 3: forms of attraction and connection. And I learned this from 663 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 3: the talking to people in the asexual community. So people 664 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 3: who don't experience sexual attraction that they really have this 665 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:50,040 Speaker 3: language to disaggregate what sexual attraction is romantic attraction, which 666 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 3: might be more like the you know, flutters that you feel, 667 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:56,920 Speaker 3: which I feel for friends often, but it's not necessarily 668 00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 3: attached to sexual desire that you might have. You might 669 00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 3: be into actually attracted to a friend, or like emotionally 670 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,920 Speaker 3: attracted to somebody and so I think one of the 671 00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:07,359 Speaker 3: things that it gets in the way when you have 672 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:11,800 Speaker 3: straight men and straight women and who are really close 673 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 3: and the sort of judgment is maybe coming from the outside, 674 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,720 Speaker 3: is that there is this assumption that sex underlies everything, 675 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:22,000 Speaker 3: or sexual desire underlies all forms of connection, when actually 676 00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:24,480 Speaker 3: it can be separate from those And then I think 677 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,000 Speaker 3: that's kind of the outside judgment. Some people might not 678 00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 3: end up in these friendships because they buy into these 679 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 3: ideas themselves that they're inviting trouble or they don't trust 680 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,760 Speaker 3: this the other person. But I think the queer community 681 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 3: really shows that people who are of sexual orientations that 682 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 3: are attracted to each other can be close friends. And 683 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:48,600 Speaker 3: this is sort of straight people issue that continues. I'm 684 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 3: like amazed in twenty twenty five are still trying to 685 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,960 Speaker 3: grapple with this, but for some people it remains an issue. 686 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:56,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, this is why I wanted you to hit 687 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 1: on it, because unfortunately that's still a very hot topic 688 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: and it's I heck, you go in comment sections on 689 00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: videos and it's still being used so very prevalent. 690 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 3: And it's also sad that you would cut off half 691 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,320 Speaker 3: the population. Basically, you're a huge portion of your potential friends. 692 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:16,319 Speaker 3: You're like, Nope, not considering them because like, this will 693 00:36:16,320 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 3: threaten my relationship, it'll threaten their romantic relationship. Maybe they'll 694 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 3: come on to me that, Like, I don't think it's 695 00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:27,319 Speaker 3: a healthy thing to sort of word off so much 696 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:30,640 Speaker 3: of the population and to sort of slap on these 697 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,480 Speaker 3: assumptions about how things are going to turn out rather 698 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 3: than respond to the individual person. The line that comes 699 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 3: to me, some of my best friends are men, which 700 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,279 Speaker 3: sounds kind of ridiculous, but it's like my life would 701 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 3: be much much less rich if I didn't have those 702 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,080 Speaker 3: close male relationships. And yes, men and women can be friends. 703 00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:51,520 Speaker 3: And to those who have trouble with it, we got 704 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 3: to like reworker ideas about what romantic relationships should look 705 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 3: like and what attraction involves. 706 00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 2: Yes, we definitely do. And I'm with you on that train. 707 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:00,960 Speaker 2: I believe it. 708 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: I see my boyfriend has lots of female friends, and 709 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:07,799 Speaker 1: I'm always like, Okay, how can I become friends with them? 710 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: You're friends with them? I want to hang out with them? 711 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,400 Speaker 2: What are they like? 712 00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,840 Speaker 1: It's more of a I want to know what that's like, 713 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: and let's invite them in further and I do think 714 00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: so much of it is also attached to insecurities of 715 00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:23,480 Speaker 1: our own and our own experiences that have created a 716 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: specific narrative. 717 00:37:24,719 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 2: That it can't exist. 718 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:28,920 Speaker 1: So and there's plenty of movies and stuff out there 719 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,399 Speaker 1: too that show us this is a storyline, but. 720 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:35,520 Speaker 3: It keeps sort of coming back to this idea of 721 00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:40,399 Speaker 3: like competition and scarcity versus a mindset that much more 722 00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 3: centered around abundance, and that having more people who you 723 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,600 Speaker 3: are close to is good for you as an individual, 724 00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:50,480 Speaker 3: it's good for a relationship. And I think people should 725 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 3: be concerned if they either have a romantic partner that's 726 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:57,760 Speaker 3: trying to narrow down the number of you know, close 727 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 3: relationships in their lives and saying people are off limits, 728 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,719 Speaker 3: and or if you have that impulse that you know, 729 00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 3: it's worth asking where is this coming from? And it 730 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,160 Speaker 3: is trying to control the other person? Really the right 731 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 3: way to address whatever kinds of fears you have, and 732 00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:20,120 Speaker 3: are there other ways to address those fears that don't 733 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,400 Speaker 3: make another person's life have to shrink. 734 00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a really important thing and I'd love to 735 00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,160 Speaker 1: end on that, but that's not how we end this podcast. 736 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: How we typically end it is that I want you 737 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,040 Speaker 1: to share something, whether it's a piece of advice or 738 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,120 Speaker 1: inspiration or something that maybe we just didn't get to 739 00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: that you feel is super important. 740 00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: But I loved that. That was really good. 741 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: So we're still going to end though on something that 742 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,600 Speaker 1: you want to. So I just give the four over 743 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: to you and you share whatever you want in this 744 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 1: moment of time. 745 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,600 Speaker 3: Well, that's something I was thinking of earlier in the 746 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 3: conversation when you were saying, like changing our idea of 747 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 3: what normal is? You know, to me, this whole project 748 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:00,520 Speaker 3: it is about friendship, but it is all so about 749 00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 3: trying to ask ourselves what is it that we want? 750 00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 3: And maybe if you have never asked yourself the question 751 00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 3: who do I want to live with, you've maybe just 752 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 3: thought obviously, I will live with the romantic partner, and 753 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,600 Speaker 3: if I can't do that, I'll live alone, versus like 754 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:21,240 Speaker 3: I having the moment to stop and ask what actually 755 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 3: fits for me might end up leading you to make 756 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 3: decisions that surprise you and make you much more satisfied. 757 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,680 Speaker 3: I think of a friend of mine who got her 758 00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:33,799 Speaker 3: own apartment because she was like this is she wasn't 759 00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:35,960 Speaker 3: in a romantic relationship and was like this is what 760 00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 3: basically the next step is. As an adult, I like 761 00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 3: live alone, right and was unhappy pretty quickly and realized 762 00:39:43,680 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 3: that no, actually I really like coming home to people 763 00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:50,960 Speaker 3: and loved living with friends and abandoned her life to 764 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:55,840 Speaker 3: make that happen. And I think sometimes we operate on 765 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,760 Speaker 3: autopilot and we think that if we are not happy 766 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 3: when we do the things that we are supposed to do, 767 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 3: that it means that there's something wrong with us. But 768 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,480 Speaker 3: actually what might help is really first making sure that 769 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 3: the thing we're doing is actually is in fact what 770 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 3: we want. And that is really hard in a world 771 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 3: that tells you there's a certain set of things you 772 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,239 Speaker 3: want and there's a certain sequence in which to get 773 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 3: those things. But I have just found, by talking to 774 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 3: people who who have really unconventional friendships and unconventional ways 775 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:29,160 Speaker 3: of living, that asking those questions and sometimes fielding the 776 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 3: confusion of other people is so so worth it. 777 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's an even better thing to end on, 778 00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,880 Speaker 1: because that's a great question for people to start asking themselves, 779 00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,520 Speaker 1: because it is. 780 00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,360 Speaker 2: I don't know that I've ever asked myself that. 781 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,480 Speaker 1: But I'm also super happy and I love living with 782 00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,920 Speaker 1: my dog and cat and fostering animals, which is a 783 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: whole nother zoo situation that I bring on to my world. 784 00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,360 Speaker 2: But I think that's a really great self reflection piece 785 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:57,719 Speaker 2: to make. 786 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:00,480 Speaker 1: Sure that you're living your life as full as it 787 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:03,920 Speaker 1: could possibly be instead of maybe not doing it just 788 00:41:03,960 --> 00:41:06,400 Speaker 1: for the sake of others thoughts and feelings. 789 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,200 Speaker 3: And maybe the one thing I would add on to 790 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,080 Speaker 3: that because I always like to think about it from 791 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 3: your vantage point and also what are you experiencing and 792 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:15,840 Speaker 3: then also how are you seeing the world. Like if 793 00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:18,439 Speaker 3: there were people who you are inclined to judge because 794 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,480 Speaker 3: they're doing things differently, just take a moment to ask, like, 795 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 3: why are they doing this? And is there anything that 796 00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,880 Speaker 3: I could learn from it? Is there anything worth admiring here? 797 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,359 Speaker 3: Is there anything to be curious about? And I think 798 00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,120 Speaker 3: that when we are less inclined to judge others, we 799 00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,840 Speaker 3: might also become more open ourselves to doing things that 800 00:41:39,880 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 3: don't necessarily feel like they are endorsed by the world 801 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: around us. But we again, like might actually like if 802 00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 3: we gave ourself space. 803 00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,239 Speaker 2: See, this is why you're an author, RNA. 804 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: This is exactly why you're sharing the things that we 805 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: need to be hearing, and I'm so happy that you 806 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,160 Speaker 1: came on just to share your story and share why. 807 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: You wrote the book and everything. 808 00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:02,879 Speaker 1: If you need something to try or want to open 809 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,080 Speaker 1: your mind a little bit, I definitely suggest her book 810 00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: The other significant Others. 811 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:08,319 Speaker 2: Randa, thank you so much for being here. 812 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:11,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks for the conversation. 813 00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,160 Speaker 1: I've got another holiday episode coming up for all of 814 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:16,799 Speaker 1: you guys. If you have holiday struggles to share things 815 00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,000 Speaker 1: that are hard in this particular season, I want you 816 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: guys to send them my way. I'll post on the 817 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 1: podcast Socials and you'll send in a voice note that 818 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:26,000 Speaker 1: I'll play back during the episode. It's one you guys 819 00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: loved last year, so making it happen again. And then 820 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 1: some episodes all about babies in motherhood with the help 821 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,960 Speaker 1: of my sister, a new mom that's Taylor. So like 822 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,360 Speaker 1: and subscribe because that also helps me out and you 823 00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 1: won't miss those episodes. Happy that you're here, thanks for 824 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,879 Speaker 1: spending an hour with me. I'll yap with you guys 825 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,400 Speaker 1: about the holidays next week.