Speaker 1: Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and Hi listeners. Well another week,
Speaker 1: another wonder woman. Yes, and here in Los Angeles. I'm
Speaker 1: very happy to have you in my hometown. And believe me,
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here because it's nineteen degrees in
Speaker 1: New York City right now, it's like here anyway. We
Speaker 1: just finished chatting with actress and activist Laverne Cox, who
Speaker 1: was so nice to come in on a Sunday morning
Speaker 1: and spend some time with us. I've interviewed Laverne before,
Speaker 1: and she is so smart, she's compassionate, she's thoughtful, she's
Speaker 1: extraordinarily well versed on the issues, and per usual, it
Speaker 1: was a real treat talking to her today. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: totally agree. I mean, like a lot of people, I
Speaker 1: was first introduced to her in her role as Sophia
Speaker 1: on Netflix's show or in Just the New Black, which
Speaker 1: is one of my favorite shows. She's one of my
Speaker 1: favorite characters. I just love her in that show. And
Speaker 1: she's also been in some reality shows like I Want
Speaker 1: to Work for Ditty, which is something you know, one
Speaker 1: of your favorite shows that was on v H one
Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight. Yeah, these people just got
Speaker 1: to live my dream Anyway, if you know Laverne, you
Speaker 1: likely also know that she's transgender. She's a prominent spokeswoman
Speaker 1: and activist for l g B t Q causes, and
Speaker 1: she actually helped to inspire you, Katie, to make your
Speaker 1: documentary on gender for National Geographic. That's right, she did,
Speaker 1: and as you'll hear in the course of our conversation,
Speaker 1: it was all because of an encounter we had on
Speaker 1: my talk show a few years ago, and she has
Speaker 1: since really become my guiding light as I've set out
Speaker 1: on a journey to understand and educate myself about transgender issues.
Speaker 1: And I think this conversation is for everyone, but for
Speaker 1: our listeners who need a primer or even just a
Speaker 1: refresher on being trans in America what it means, I'd
Speaker 1: highly recommend watching Katie's documentary Gender Revolution. I'd say that
Speaker 1: even if you weren't my Brian, my co host, or
Speaker 1: you could check out the corresponding episode of this pod cast,
Speaker 1: which is number nineteen from back in February of last year.
Speaker 1: We began our conversation this morning in Los Angeles by
Speaker 1: talking about how Laverne and I met about four years ago.
Speaker 1: We have an interesting backstory if you will, so just
Speaker 1: for our listeners, And I'm not embarrassed to talk about
Speaker 1: it because I think it's important to ollan the fact
Speaker 1: that I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes.
Speaker 1: With your help, but a few years ago on my
Speaker 1: talk show is doing something with the right spirit of
Speaker 1: trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't
Speaker 1: being talked about very much at that moment in time.
Speaker 1: I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and
Speaker 1: not four years ago. I know it was that crazy
Speaker 1: years ago this this month. Actually it aired four years
Speaker 1: ago this month. Well, Carmen Career came on the show.
Speaker 1: Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested
Speaker 1: in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she
Speaker 1: came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment,
Speaker 1: I asked her about her private parts. You're still your
Speaker 1: your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I
Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because it's it's still
Speaker 1: it's really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite
Speaker 1: understand how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it
Speaker 1: would be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it
Speaker 1: was offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne
Speaker 1: saved the day and came out and we had a
Speaker 1: conversation about it. But it really exploded in the trans community.
Speaker 1: People were really upset about it, angry with me, and
Speaker 1: it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later
Speaker 1: on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually
Speaker 1: sat down and had a long conversation about why that
Speaker 1: was so inappropriate. And I remember the producer's Laverne, they
Speaker 1: did not want me to do that. They were like, no,
Speaker 1: don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw
Speaker 1: Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just
Speaker 1: curious what your reaction was, Katie, Oh, it was. It's
Speaker 1: such as that was an intense timing. You're taking me back.
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say that publicists producers
Speaker 1: often say don't talk about something and that, and that
Speaker 1: if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it
Speaker 1: sort of perpetuates and so, but then when you don't
Speaker 1: talk about it, then there we don't really get a
Speaker 1: chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to
Speaker 1: have the teachable moment is the way you you put
Speaker 1: it at the time, and so I was so excited
Speaker 1: that you were willing and open to talk about it.
Speaker 1: And I think about the moments I've had, because we
Speaker 1: think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself
Speaker 1: out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes
Speaker 1: or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,
Speaker 1: deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even
Speaker 1: though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it
Speaker 1: was for you um to be going through that and
Speaker 1: to have the courage to be on television and to
Speaker 1: say I made a mistake and what can we do
Speaker 1: to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and
Speaker 1: it's so painful. But I think that, and as I
Speaker 1: saw the speech I made in London at the Attitude
Speaker 1: Awards about that's for me feels like this model of
Speaker 1: how we can go forward. It's going to be painful,
Speaker 1: it's going to hurt, but if we can be accountable
Speaker 1: and be teachable, then we can begin to model that
Speaker 1: for other people. So when it all happened, though at
Speaker 1: the time, what was exciting for me is that my
Speaker 1: whole life. I've been watching UM TV talk to have
Speaker 1: done presentations about TV talk shows that have since the
Speaker 1: fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people and reduced,
Speaker 1: not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and transition and
Speaker 1: body parts. But what I said on the show is
Speaker 1: when we focus on that, that becomes the only takeaway.
Speaker 1: But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and having watched
Speaker 1: those interviews over the year, I've never really seen anyone
Speaker 1: on television pushed back and say maybe we should be
Speaker 1: having a different conversation. So what was really exciting for
Speaker 1: me is that Karmen and I got the opportunity to
Speaker 1: UM to talk back and say maybe we should be
Speaker 1: having a different conversation. And so I think when I
Speaker 1: saw Twitter exploding, what was exciting for me is is
Speaker 1: that because of social media and because of that moment,
Speaker 1: Carmen and I were to have with you because you
Speaker 1: we pre shot that so you didn't actually have to
Speaker 1: air that, right. That's that's that's actually a little interesting
Speaker 1: factoid about the whole situation. You know, my producer said,
Speaker 1: do you want to take that out? Because you know
Speaker 1: it made me look foolish and and and deservedly so.
Speaker 1: And I said, no, keep it in because I think
Speaker 1: it's a maybe a question that other people would have
Speaker 1: asked or at least thought about. And I want people
Speaker 1: to understand that being a trans person is much more
Speaker 1: than your anatomy, you know, it has has very little
Speaker 1: to do with it. And of course I've been so
Speaker 1: educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But I also
Speaker 1: think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, certainly
Speaker 1: there's there people have there's still an educational thing that
Speaker 1: still needs to happen around trans folks. Is someny misunderstandings
Speaker 1: and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists
Speaker 1: now it's different. I feel it's really different. And so
Speaker 1: that moment feels really pivotal. And I'm I'm so grateful
Speaker 1: to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't
Speaker 1: edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was really painful for you the
Speaker 1: way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um,
Speaker 1: but sometimes that's a necessary part of it, is I mean,
Speaker 1: it is interesting when it comes to a social movement
Speaker 1: sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger,
Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the process, but I
Speaker 1: so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave
Speaker 1: it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled
Speaker 1: a clip because it was so nice and I was
Speaker 1: so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second.
Speaker 1: It important that we begin to look for models of
Speaker 1: transformation and encourage that, and when the way we got
Speaker 1: there with Katie is that I was willing to have
Speaker 1: conversations with her with love and empathy. I do not
Speaker 1: believe that we can get to that transformation by publicly
Speaker 1: shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch these
Speaker 1: shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as some did,
Speaker 1: particularly in the trans community, what do you think of
Speaker 1: the key lessons that people who are not trans can
Speaker 1: take away from that back and forth? For people who
Speaker 1: aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, there's so
Speaker 1: many things. Um part of part of it, I think
Speaker 1: is the love and empathy piece that's so often every
Speaker 1: what I've learned, especially over the last years, that not
Speaker 1: everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. I
Speaker 1: think with Katie, it was clear that you were you
Speaker 1: have great, good intentions and it's got some things a
Speaker 1: little off. And so then when the intentions are clear,
Speaker 1: that we can begin to approach people with love and
Speaker 1: empathy and find way ways to communicate our message better.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you
Speaker 1: feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say
Speaker 1: to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean,
Speaker 1: I I've been one of those people. Can you see
Speaker 1: their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this
Speaker 1: approach I have, I have, and and learning doesn't always
Speaker 1: happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think,
Speaker 1: I mean, part of what I get to do as
Speaker 1: an artist too, is that when you as an actor,
Speaker 1: that's the work of being an actor is having empathy,
Speaker 1: having empathy for a character, characters that I play. I
Speaker 1: can never sort of approach a character with like I
Speaker 1: don't like this person. I always have to find a way,
Speaker 1: even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to
Speaker 1: empathize with her um and find a way in So
Speaker 1: that's the work of being an artist is to is
Speaker 1: to have empathy and love for the characters I play
Speaker 1: into hopefully convey that to audiences, and so that's the
Speaker 1: work that I do as an artist, and so I
Speaker 1: think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I do elsewhere.
Speaker 1: Being an artist is what informs everything that I do.
Speaker 1: And UM, they're the legacy of revolutionary artists. Progressive artists,
Speaker 1: through their work and their activism, have proceeded that way,
Speaker 1: and so I have a wonderful legacy to look to.
Speaker 1: We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen around the
Speaker 1: issue of marriage equality. UM. Understanding around trans issues is
Speaker 1: probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, but
Speaker 1: that was maybe the fastest social change in America than
Speaker 1: anybody can remember. Part of it had to do with
Speaker 1: the change in calling it marriage equality as opposed to
Speaker 1: gay marriage. How you talk about it, how you kind
Speaker 1: of find the way into people who are maybe instinctually
Speaker 1: not as understanding or haven't come across these people as
Speaker 1: much as you know as much as some others. Um,
Speaker 1: do you think there are things that the trans community
Speaker 1: has done or still needs to do in order to
Speaker 1: make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.
Speaker 1: And UM, there's fewer trans people than there are a
Speaker 1: game lesbian people. UM. The way the way you've alluded
Speaker 1: to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage
Speaker 1: to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and
Speaker 1: that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm
Speaker 1: trying to do is to shape the conversation in a
Speaker 1: different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack
Speaker 1: right now in this country. There's we connect there's just
Speaker 1: the list of like really legislative things that are happening,
Speaker 1: policy things that are happening around with ending you know,
Speaker 1: guidelines for trans kids, um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced
Speaker 1: in state legislatures all over the country, transfolk stums. There's
Speaker 1: a fight for us to be able to serve openly
Speaker 1: in the military right now. Um it really it goes
Speaker 1: on and on and on. There's t seventeen with the
Speaker 1: deadliest year on record for trans people in trans of
Speaker 1: being murdered. Um our lives are on the line. So
Speaker 1: a lot of it is about it's an intersectional issue.
Speaker 1: So when we talk about trans stuff, and it gets
Speaker 1: complicated because it's not just a gender thing, it's a
Speaker 1: race thing, it's a class thing. It's an act this education,
Speaker 1: it's an access to housing and jobs and so all
Speaker 1: of those things sort of are diminishing our left dances.
Speaker 1: Sexual assault. I was going to say, it's it's a
Speaker 1: crying thing, and I want to talk about intersexuality. I
Speaker 1: want to talk about sort of being under assault in
Speaker 1: this Trump administration, in the current policy in a second.
Speaker 1: But before we do that, Laverne, I want to talk
Speaker 1: about your story, your life story, because it's so fascinating
Speaker 1: and I'm sure was harroin when you were younger. You
Speaker 1: were born in Mobile, Obama, you were raised by a
Speaker 1: single mom. You never met your dad. Um, I met
Speaker 1: my dad once. You did when you were how old? Um?
Speaker 1: I think I was in third grade. I was in
Speaker 1: third grade. Do you remember that? I do. I'm not
Speaker 1: going to talk about it, really. I think there's some things,
Speaker 1: the whole circumstances leading up to that that we're really
Speaker 1: really painful. And I've worked through all that with my mom,
Speaker 1: and so I don't respect to my mother and my family.
Speaker 1: I can't talk about all I totally understand. But yes,
Speaker 1: once I met my my logical product you had and
Speaker 1: I you have an identical twin brother, yes, and just
Speaker 1: just one brother, just one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm
Speaker 1: just curious what it was like growing up. I think
Speaker 1: about you and Mobile, Alabama. I know you attempted suicide
Speaker 1: when you were eleven years old. Paint a picture for us,
Speaker 1: leave learn about what life was like. I mean, I
Speaker 1: have a lovely therapist now. She reminds me often that
Speaker 1: it's both and so like. Yes, I was bullied. Um.
Speaker 1: I was chased home from school practically every day, and
Speaker 1: kids wanted to beat me up. I got beaten up
Speaker 1: a lot. I was a very fast runner. I didn't
Speaker 1: feel safe anywhere. But I was also a really creative kid.
Speaker 1: I started dancing when I walked, and I begged my
Speaker 1: mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when
Speaker 1: I was in third grade, she found a free program
Speaker 1: where I could study dance. And that I believe that
Speaker 1: dancing saved my life. I did. I have quit wrap
Speaker 1: dance routines and like competed in talent shows all over
Speaker 1: the Southeast, and there's still trophies in my house back
Speaker 1: in Alabama. He said, I know you have said it
Speaker 1: saved your life. Yeah. Being creative and I was a
Speaker 1: good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from
Speaker 1: the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library
Speaker 1: all the time reading I was, I was a total
Speaker 1: nerd as smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really,
Speaker 1: he's smarter. My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um.
Speaker 1: And by the way, if you haven't watched or Just
Speaker 1: a New Black, you can meet LaVerne's brother. He's definitely
Speaker 1: playing a character though. My brother is punk rock and
Speaker 1: god he was. He defines find himself as a practicing him,
Speaker 1: a sexual who is Negro goth, punk rock, um and
Speaker 1: a free black man. He's um, He's a he's he's
Speaker 1: a musician and an artist and his work is very
Speaker 1: in Lamar is his name in lamar dot com. If
Speaker 1: people care about his work. He really sort of hates.
Speaker 1: He hates that he didn't Orange A New Black because
Speaker 1: people It's so funny because if you google most famous,
Speaker 1: well known trans people, there's like before. People always want
Speaker 1: to see what trans people like before, and people have
Speaker 1: a photo of my brother and then me said by side,
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's kind of hilarious. But they have a
Speaker 1: photo of him from or Just a New Black, and
Speaker 1: he doesn't even look like that in real Lafe. Here
Speaker 1: it's like eyeliner or any long hair. But that's the
Speaker 1: character he played. That's the character he played. Yeah, my
Speaker 1: character pre transition. But but when when did you When
Speaker 1: did you start struggling with your gender identity? I you
Speaker 1: do you remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't
Speaker 1: a struggle for me. It was a struggle for everybody else.
Speaker 1: I was all. I was always feminine, I was always
Speaker 1: you know, I really thought that boy, there was no
Speaker 1: difference between boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me
Speaker 1: I was a boy, and I knew that I was
Speaker 1: a girl, so I didn't think there were any differences.
Speaker 1: And then there was a therapy moment in third grade.
Speaker 1: I've talked about this little talked about this a lot.
Speaker 1: My third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother
Speaker 1: on the phone and say, your son will end up
Speaker 1: in New Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get
Speaker 1: him to therapy right away. So I went to therapy,
Speaker 1: and there was there was this whole sort of I
Speaker 1: guess we would call it reparative therapy around my gender
Speaker 1: expression at the time that was trying to trying to
Speaker 1: fix me. And up until that time, I didn't think
Speaker 1: that there was really a difference between boys and girls.
Speaker 1: I knew that I was being bullied. I knew that
Speaker 1: people were um. People called me all kinds of anti
Speaker 1: gay slurs. They called me a girl, and I think,
Speaker 1: I said, said, the interesting the irony of my life
Speaker 1: is that before I transition, kids called me a girl,
Speaker 1: and after I transition, people call me a man um
Speaker 1: And so, my gosh, it was just it was intense,
Speaker 1: but I feel like was everyone else's problem I and
Speaker 1: then it became and it's something I internalized. I internalized
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of transphobia and I was like, I
Speaker 1: can't be this. And it wasn't until I moved to
Speaker 1: New York and met real trans people that I was
Speaker 1: able to accept trans people and then accept myself. But
Speaker 1: it was a problem for everybody else. Leante and Price
Speaker 1: my idol. She's an offer singer and she when she
Speaker 1: talks about race, she said, it's not it's not the
Speaker 1: black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. And that's really
Speaker 1: how I see it with with the gender stuff. And
Speaker 1: I think for for me, I had to sort of
Speaker 1: get find access to medical care and find ways to
Speaker 1: survive because it's hard. It's as smart as you think.
Speaker 1: On my be I was working in a restaurant, a
Speaker 1: drag queen restaurant before Orange the New Black sort of
Speaker 1: became a sensation and or in New York City. And
Speaker 1: I have a college degree and I was writing, you know,
Speaker 1: articles for Huffing Compost, and I kind of a smart chick.
Speaker 1: But a lot of people wouldn't have hired me. You know,
Speaker 1: I couldn't really get a job. There's a lot of
Speaker 1: people who wouldn't have hired me. It's brilliant, as I
Speaker 1: might seem, um, And there's a lot there's a lot
Speaker 1: of trans people out there who are brilliant, who can't
Speaker 1: get jobs because they're trans. And you were inspired, at
Speaker 1: least in part by a trans woman named Candice Kane.
Speaker 1: For people in our audience who don't know who she is,
Speaker 1: can you describe her and tell her tell us the
Speaker 1: impact she had in your life. Candice Kane. I love
Speaker 1: Candice Kane. Um. She's a New York City legend, and
Speaker 1: she's a trans woman. And a lot of people got
Speaker 1: to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality show I Am Kate,
Speaker 1: But before that, in two thousand and seven, she became
Speaker 1: the first openly transgender actress to have a recurring role
Speaker 1: in a prime time TV show, and their show is
Speaker 1: Dirty Sexy Money. That was eleven years ago, and that
Speaker 1: moment made me believe that it was possible to be
Speaker 1: openly trance and have a career as an actor. I've
Speaker 1: been At this point, I had a degree in dance.
Speaker 1: I studied acting and dance in college. I had done
Speaker 1: a number of independent films and been and just been
Speaker 1: going to acting class every week, you know, and turning
Speaker 1: and turned to student Susan Batson studio in New York City,
Speaker 1: and I mopped the floors and answered the phone, so
Speaker 1: I can get acting classes for free. Thank you, Susan.
Speaker 1: It's had a little scholarship. And so it was being
Speaker 1: an actress something I've been. I committed myself to, you know,
Speaker 1: just and just doing the grind in New York, doing
Speaker 1: the off railway theater or student films or whatever I
Speaker 1: could do, just to work. And when I saw that
Speaker 1: moment from Candice, I was like, this is the moment,
Speaker 1: and that I sent out postcards. I love this story.
Speaker 1: By the way, was this sending out postcards from New
Speaker 1: York or from mobile? It was I was in New York, Okay,
Speaker 1: So it's already in New York. I went to college
Speaker 1: in New York and Um sent out postcards to agents
Speaker 1: and casting director. It's like five and I was like,
Speaker 1: Laverne Cox is the answered all your transender acting? Because
Speaker 1: I mean there was sort of a niche for being
Speaker 1: trans and being an actor. Not a lot of great
Speaker 1: parts at the time, but there were there was something
Speaker 1: mostly sex workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny,
Speaker 1: but it kind of is. UM. And then the manager
Speaker 1: that I have now to this day, pa Heloppo, is
Speaker 1: one of the four meetings I got from that those
Speaker 1: five postcards. That's amazing. I mean, that's a real lesson,
Speaker 1: by the way, an ingenuity and persistence and just putting
Speaker 1: yourself out there that you sent all these postcards out
Speaker 1: and you got four meetings from the meetings. I had
Speaker 1: a commercial agent for a minute that didn't work out,
Speaker 1: but then I got a legit acting agent. Um. Pa
Speaker 1: Heloppo is my agent for many years now. He's my manager,
Speaker 1: and he saw something in me. And for there were
Speaker 1: many years I didn't work at all. Over the eleven
Speaker 1: years that we've been together. That would be like, my guys,
Speaker 1: why had he not dropped me? You know? If you
Speaker 1: have an agent, you have a client and they're not working.
Speaker 1: But he just saw something and then he stuck with
Speaker 1: me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.
Speaker 1: I mean, you did a number of appearances on Lawn Order,
Speaker 1: I know, and then you did some reality shows, some
Speaker 1: independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of
Speaker 1: documentary and one one in particular about the lives of
Speaker 1: seven trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time
Speaker 1: they were between the ages of twelve and twenty four.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of all of them right now. Um
Speaker 1: Zoe Luna just had her HBO show about her KISA.
Speaker 1: She's she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane hen
Speaker 1: Niece has been in and a Kinneth cole ad and
Speaker 1: he got a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school
Speaker 1: after the Tea World. I'm just oh, I can't anyways,
Speaker 1: all of them are really fantastic and I'm so proud
Speaker 1: of all of them. Think I mean again, I know,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm kind of like totally fan girling on
Speaker 1: poor Laverne, but think about what you were able to
Speaker 1: do for these young people by helping them adjust, by
Speaker 1: giving them attention and by kind of launching their careers.
Speaker 1: I think what we I try not to be too
Speaker 1: arrogant about what I did. I think what we were
Speaker 1: able to do with Laverne Costumes and the tea where
Speaker 1: and you can watch the documentary on on YouTube or
Speaker 1: on Logo TV, is that we gave them a platform
Speaker 1: and tell their stories. And then UM, with that, what
Speaker 1: were they able to do on top of that? What
Speaker 1: I learned, and I had this conversation with every one
Speaker 1: of them, that this is an opportunity for you to
Speaker 1: have a platform. Now it's time to hustle. And what
Speaker 1: I learned from having done reality TV when I did
Speaker 1: a show called I Want to Work for Ditty in
Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and that was UM that's directly
Speaker 1: because of Candice Cane. That was the next year because
Speaker 1: I sort of put myself out there in a new way.
Speaker 1: I learned that reality television was a platform. But then
Speaker 1: now it was time for me to hustle and to
Speaker 1: um really capitalize on that. And so that's what I've
Speaker 1: I've tried to do in a way that's respectful to
Speaker 1: myself and to the art and what I want to do. UM.
Speaker 1: But that was what I said to the young people,
Speaker 1: So then it was on them. But I mean, let's
Speaker 1: be honest, giving them a platform change their worlds. I hope, so,
Speaker 1: I hope, so I will. Shane has told me that
Speaker 1: it has, and a few of the young people have
Speaker 1: told me that it has been transformative for them, So
Speaker 1: that that makes me happy. Let's take a quick break.
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of our fascinating conversation with
Speaker 1: this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cox. And now back to
Speaker 1: our conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most
Speaker 1: people in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox
Speaker 1: was when you got the role on Orange, just the
Speaker 1: New Black. How did that come about and how has
Speaker 1: that changed your life? It's funny because right before I
Speaker 1: booked Orange, I was thinking maybe I was done acting.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'd been a number of independent films that've done
Speaker 1: some TV, and I's thinking maybe I was done and
Speaker 1: hadn't booked anything for going on a year. We're still
Speaker 1: working in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change
Speaker 1: the restaurant every week. And then I got the audition
Speaker 1: and I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode
Speaker 1: of orange and one from the episode three, the famous
Speaker 1: duct tape flip flops um seen from season one. In fact,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip
Speaker 1: from that since you did the perfected with this. All right,
Speaker 1: well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I
Speaker 1: made my own commer. Don't Carrious last their team due
Speaker 1: me italics are very in the season. I remember that
Speaker 1: scene so well, Laverne, when you heard about this role,
Speaker 1: were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to
Speaker 1: be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know. I was
Speaker 1: at an event with my manager Paul, and he said,
Speaker 1: I have an audition for you. It's set in a
Speaker 1: women's prison. You're a hairdresser and women's for women's prison.
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He
Speaker 1: said it was a web series and this is so
Speaker 1: there were no streaming television shows, there were web series.
Speaker 1: So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool.
Speaker 1: And then I got the pilot scripts and it was
Speaker 1: brilliant and um Gingi Cohen. I was a huge fan
Speaker 1: of Weeds, like huge and I love her by the way,
Speaker 1: I love her too, A creator and exactly and then I,
Speaker 1: um did the audition, got the part. I was screaming.
Speaker 1: I was on this treat and I started screaming, and
Speaker 1: I was hopeful that people might watch it. But I
Speaker 1: was just so excited to be working. I was I
Speaker 1: dedicated my life to being an actor, and it's a
Speaker 1: really hard thing to do, to be an artist, and
Speaker 1: so I was just happy to have a job. And
Speaker 1: then it turned into this thing where like episode three
Speaker 1: was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing, and
Speaker 1: that was a dream come true. And um, did you
Speaker 1: have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is really clicking,
Speaker 1: this is this is something special season one? It was
Speaker 1: just what I love about Season one of our show
Speaker 1: is that it was so about the work, and I
Speaker 1: was just so excited to do the work to really
Speaker 1: that I've been training for all these years. And then
Speaker 1: there was a moment I think episode and it's the
Speaker 1: rat battle scene, episode six or so of season one,
Speaker 1: and I looked around and it was room full of
Speaker 1: women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual orientations and
Speaker 1: and I'm in the middle there, and I just was like,
Speaker 1: this is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody's gonna wash it or care,
Speaker 1: but this is awesome and I did honestly think anybody
Speaker 1: would watch it. I knew it was good and special,
Speaker 1: but I just had never seen anything like it, and
Speaker 1: so I was like, where does this fit in the marketplace?
Speaker 1: You know? And then it's on Netflix. I was just
Speaker 1: my my dream really was. I was like, I hope
Speaker 1: casting directors watch it and see that I can act,
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll get another job. That was my real
Speaker 1: People didn't think of Netflix is the behe meth that
Speaker 1: it's become, spending seven billion dollars a year on content
Speaker 1: and all the rest. But let me ask you, since
Speaker 1: you first appeared and broke through on that show, how
Speaker 1: do you think opportunities for transactors have changed? Gosh, it's
Speaker 1: a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to my
Speaker 1: transplants who are actors, there are more roles than there
Speaker 1: used to be in the roles are different. Um. I'm
Speaker 1: so excited about Ryan Murphy's news show Post is coming
Speaker 1: out of this summer. There's six transgender series regular unlesshow
Speaker 1: all trans women of color and they're so talented. Um,
Speaker 1: and what is it about. It's about the ballroom community
Speaker 1: in New York City in the nineteen eighties, like that
Speaker 1: movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that, it's about
Speaker 1: these balls that are sort of competitions where people vogue
Speaker 1: and people sort of have different categories like realness and faith,
Speaker 1: et cetera. So it's the sort of drag trans lgbt
Speaker 1: Q balls of color that Madonna's vote comes out of
Speaker 1: that community. And it's really when um our current president
Speaker 1: was building all these huge buildings and so that you know,
Speaker 1: New York was changing a lot in the late eighties
Speaker 1: as well, So that that's the backdrop of the of
Speaker 1: the of pose which is so excited about it. So
Speaker 1: that's exciting for for people in the trans community. But
Speaker 1: how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's still
Speaker 1: a lot of casting ritchers aren't calling us stand for
Speaker 1: roles that are not trans. Well that's the thing, right,
Speaker 1: is the real victory going to be when you don't
Speaker 1: have to play a trans person but you get to
Speaker 1: play a woman. I just get to play characters and
Speaker 1: it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think
Speaker 1: that is the victory. More opportunities and I think but
Speaker 1: there's so many trans stories that need to be told
Speaker 1: as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing
Speaker 1: and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to
Speaker 1: to pose his credit. There's two to right trans writers,
Speaker 1: and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew.
Speaker 1: Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,
Speaker 1: we had a trans writer. And I have a show
Speaker 1: um in development at ABC now called Spirited, Um that
Speaker 1: is not a trans character, and um that's the lead
Speaker 1: of So hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline.
Speaker 1: It's but you feel like they're You feel like you
Speaker 1: need to have both both stories of trans people but
Speaker 1: also trans people being cast without regard to their gender.
Speaker 1: Because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter.
Speaker 1: I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycles or pregnancy,
Speaker 1: I should be able to play it. And then the
Speaker 1: question is does the character become trans when I play
Speaker 1: the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play
Speaker 1: a character, the character becomes black. And do it just
Speaker 1: the character become trans when I play her, even if
Speaker 1: it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting
Speaker 1: question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point,
Speaker 1: you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were
Speaker 1: born as men playing a signed mail at birth, assigned
Speaker 1: mail at birth and identify as male. Thank you for
Speaker 1: them being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey
Speaker 1: Tambor on Transparent, although you know he made Jared Letto,
Speaker 1: I E Eddie Redmain. Who are you know? UM? I
Speaker 1: was about to say, all lovely people, but now how
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? Though you know, um, there
Speaker 1: is certainly a push now in UM, in the trans
Speaker 1: community and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters.
Speaker 1: Transmpone jobs I said earlier than our employment rate is
Speaker 1: about four times in national average UM. And Jen Richard's
Speaker 1: a brilliant writer actress. She argues that when sphysically, when
Speaker 1: cis gender men, non transgender men are cast to play
Speaker 1: transferred to women at least to violence against us because
Speaker 1: it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women
Speaker 1: are really men. So Jared Letto beautifully plays this trans
Speaker 1: character in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the
Speaker 1: Oscars and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks
Speaker 1: men who find themselves attracted to trans women then see
Speaker 1: this guy with a beard amidst in this message, their
Speaker 1: trans women are really not women at all, but men,
Speaker 1: and so she contends that that leads to balance against
Speaker 1: So I think the other piece of that is that
Speaker 1: men who are attracted to trans women need to deal
Speaker 1: with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting
Speaker 1: for me as a transactress playing a transparacter and Orange
Speaker 1: a New Black is that people have audience members have
Speaker 1: not just empathized with the character that I played, but
Speaker 1: they find themselves empathizing with the actors who plays her,
Speaker 1: and so there's been so much I think it's inarguable
Speaker 1: that there's been so much change because of that part
Speaker 1: that I got to play, and people connecting with this
Speaker 1: character and then connecting with the actress on a human level. Well,
Speaker 1: think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender
Speaker 1: identity and it just got right to the heart of
Speaker 1: the person, which can I think is the most persuasive
Speaker 1: tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see
Speaker 1: people as human beings, and I think, according to a
Speaker 1: study from Glad of Folks, in the United States do
Speaker 1: not know someone trans and so what what we you
Speaker 1: and the media is how folks get to know trans
Speaker 1: folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or
Speaker 1: or life threatening if the representation in the media does
Speaker 1: not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are.
Speaker 1: One of the people I featured in my documentary was
Speaker 1: Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just
Speaker 1: kind of made a little prayer sign and held it
Speaker 1: up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person.
Speaker 1: How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know,
Speaker 1: I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it
Speaker 1: would have been, um, we should say, by the way, background,
Speaker 1: by the way, guess Gavin came out as transgender in
Speaker 1: high school in Virginia. His county's school board said that
Speaker 1: he couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,
Speaker 1: but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed,
Speaker 1: and then parents found out and said we can't do this,
Speaker 1: and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room,
Speaker 1: the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And
Speaker 1: then the school board finds out and sayest know what,
Speaker 1: this can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By
Speaker 1: the way, and just just before we talk a little
Speaker 1: more about Gavin, we have a clip from what I
Speaker 1: thought was one of the most moving moments of my
Speaker 1: documentary is when, by the way, we didn't film it.
Speaker 1: It was when Gavin spoke before the school board and
Speaker 1: there was a whole group of people, and he was
Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and he was so composed and so extraordinary.
Speaker 1: Let's listen to what he said. I've been aware of
Speaker 1: who I was since I was a very young kid,
Speaker 1: and it's taken me a very long time to be
Speaker 1: able to be myself and be okay with that. The
Speaker 1: person I am now being able to have all of
Speaker 1: my rights in full is such a massive dynamic difference
Speaker 1: from the person I was just last summer. I would
Speaker 1: like to say two of that. If the evidence said
Speaker 1: that me using the boy's room would be catastrophic, I
Speaker 1: would not be advocating for myself, regardless of my personal
Speaker 1: emotions over this issue. I look only at the facts
Speaker 1: as one should in an issue that for poor separation
Speaker 1: of church and state and feelings of state. That clip
Speaker 1: makes me cry every time I hear at Laverne and
Speaker 1: so you heard about Gavin's situation. Did you reach out
Speaker 1: to him? I did, Actually, I really my friend Chaise Strangia,
Speaker 1: who were the a c LU de Laurier. The a
Speaker 1: c l U is handling Gavin's case, and it was
Speaker 1: a major it was gonna be a major decision, or
Speaker 1: it was it would have been the first time the
Speaker 1: Supreme Court would have heard an issue about transgender rights.
Speaker 1: And so I sent him a video message and then
Speaker 1: we arranged to meet to meet Gavin. It was like
Speaker 1: a week after the Grammys a year ago, I remember,
Speaker 1: and I just I was moved by everything I had
Speaker 1: read about him and the videos I've seen about him,
Speaker 1: and then he's when I met him. He's so smart
Speaker 1: and so calm and composed. It's amazing. I freak out.
Speaker 1: I mean, I just when I all think it's attention
Speaker 1: is on me and I get such anxiety, and he
Speaker 1: seems so calm and his mom um. It's amazing. I
Speaker 1: think it's over fifty percent of trans kids when they
Speaker 1: have families, art their lives are completely different in terms
Speaker 1: of positive outcomes for them being who they are. Because
Speaker 1: we should just mention how high the suicide rate is
Speaker 1: among trans children and trans youth. Yeah, it's over over
Speaker 1: forty one of trans people have attempted suicide, and I
Speaker 1: think it's of trans youth have a have attempted suicide,
Speaker 1: and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort
Speaker 1: of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live
Speaker 1: in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages
Speaker 1: to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you
Speaker 1: are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every
Speaker 1: message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from
Speaker 1: the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you
Speaker 1: are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It
Speaker 1: is really hard to think that you have a right
Speaker 1: to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I
Speaker 1: want trans kids to know that you have a right
Speaker 1: to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful,
Speaker 1: and that you're here for a reason, and that you
Speaker 1: have to find a to survive um so you can
Speaker 1: fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court decided
Speaker 1: not to hear Gavin's kid They decided not to hear
Speaker 1: Gavin's kids because the current administration. The Justice Department rescinded
Speaker 1: the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids should
Speaker 1: be treated in school. And and so when the Justice
Speaker 1: Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case. There
Speaker 1: was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys?
Speaker 1: So basically a lot of people thought they were about bathrooms, right,
Speaker 1: So they did say that, you know, trans kit should
Speaker 1: be able to use the bathroom that's consistent with their
Speaker 1: gender identity. But it also talked about prefer name, it
Speaker 1: talked about how other kids should treat them in school.
Speaker 1: So it was a whole host of guidelines. It was
Speaker 1: really abou making making sure that trans kids were safe
Speaker 1: in schools and that they were treated in a way
Speaker 1: that was respectful to them so they could learn. Education
Speaker 1: is the reason I'm sitting here, and people should have
Speaker 1: safe schools. And that was just the first, I think
Speaker 1: thing that the Trump administration did that has started to
Speaker 1: erode the progress that had heretofore been made before was selected. Yeah,
Speaker 1: not just for trans people, but for across the board
Speaker 1: the Justice Department. Even though people have to remember that
Speaker 1: the current administration has not been very successful legislatively, but
Speaker 1: in terms of the Justice Department. They have been very
Speaker 1: successful rolling back mandatory minimum so many um progressive things
Speaker 1: that the Obama administration um did, so we got to
Speaker 1: continue to resist what. In fact, back in July, President
Speaker 1: Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not be allowed to
Speaker 1: serve in the US military. Has that been implemented? So? Um,
Speaker 1: Remember that was so crazy because ostensibly President Trump had
Speaker 1: cleared this with his military leaders, but then they said
Speaker 1: he never talked to them, ostensibly meaning he didn't right
Speaker 1: and then suddenly and then that changed, right. So after
Speaker 1: after the tweet, the guest Department of Defense got some
Speaker 1: policy together to basically try to ban on transiple And now,
Speaker 1: mind you, trans people have just been able to serve openly, barely,
Speaker 1: and it was something that like Obama, but luckily at
Speaker 1: this point to judges have said that this is unconstitutional
Speaker 1: and there's no reason to ban trans people. I think
Speaker 1: it's probably gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So
Speaker 1: that meantime, what's happening to transgender people who are currently
Speaker 1: serving in the military. It's my from my understanding, they
Speaker 1: should be treated with kindness and respect. But again, it
Speaker 1: sends a message when the leader of the Free world.
Speaker 1: I feel that I use that term loosely. Now, UM,
Speaker 1: let the records show there are some more quotes tackling
Speaker 1: UM says that you shouldn't have a right to serve
Speaker 1: your country. And what other things have happened in the
Speaker 1: last year Laverne that have really kind of put trans
Speaker 1: people in the crosshairs? UM. I think over twenty states
Speaker 1: have passed about fifty pieces of legislation that basically criminalized
Speaker 1: trans people using the bathroom that is consistent with their
Speaker 1: gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation. A number of those
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation have been struck down, notably in Texas,
Speaker 1: but a lot of people think that um HB too.
Speaker 1: In Carolina, a lot of people thought that that was repealed.
Speaker 1: It actually wasn't. They basically made a new bill that
Speaker 1: basically had institute the same kind of discrimination against trans
Speaker 1: people because they wanted to basically get their corporate folks back,
Speaker 1: And so a lot of people think that that's settled.
Speaker 1: In North Carolina, it actually isn't. The a c l
Speaker 1: U and other organizations are still I think it's lamb
Speaker 1: I Legal are still suing the state of North Carolina
Speaker 1: because they're trying to criminalize trans people going to the
Speaker 1: bath This has had a profound impact on politics. The
Speaker 1: governor of North Carolina who signed the infamous bathroom band
Speaker 1: like with Anymore, Yeah, he lost his race. I think
Speaker 1: he's still around, but he's no longer governor exactly um
Speaker 1: largely as a result of the backlash on this issue.
Speaker 1: And last year we saw Danica Rome I think that's
Speaker 1: how you pronounced her name in Virginia be the first
Speaker 1: openly trans person elected and seated in the US State House.
Speaker 1: And Andrea Jenkins was the first only transgender black woman
Speaker 1: to be elected shows a Life to the Minneapolis City
Speaker 1: Council and met Andrew. I've met Andrew. We did a
Speaker 1: panel when I was a mini in Minnesota, like a
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. And now Chelsea Manning has filed
Speaker 1: to run for Senate in the state of Maryland, and
Speaker 1: more of our controversial character having nothing to do with
Speaker 1: first I mean, I think it says a lot that
Speaker 1: we've seen this happen and that that must be a
Speaker 1: positive in a year that's been full of a lot
Speaker 1: of negatives. I think what has happened because of the
Speaker 1: current administration is that a lot of folks UM, various
Speaker 1: backgrounds are choosing to run for office and are winning.
Speaker 1: And that I think if if there's anything positive that
Speaker 1: has come out of UM this current administration, is that
Speaker 1: folks have woken up. And I think a lot of
Speaker 1: folks got complacent under my beloved President Obama. I love him,
Speaker 1: we miss you, we missed you, Obama's UM. I think
Speaker 1: a lot of those got very complacent and didn't realize
Speaker 1: that UM a lot of basic civil liberties were at stake.
Speaker 1: And I think that it's very clear now. The last
Speaker 1: time I checked, and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven
Speaker 1: thousand women were running for office. Uh. And I think
Speaker 1: that brings us to sort of the me too movement.
Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think of this movement, Laverne.
Speaker 1: If you believe it is intersectional enough, that is so
Speaker 1: it's really talking about race, it's talking about gender, it's
Speaker 1: talking about gender identity, uh, not just white women in
Speaker 1: Hollywood and or beyond even and and that if you
Speaker 1: think it's expansive enough, So what are your thoughts. I
Speaker 1: think we can always be more intersectional, we can always
Speaker 1: um include more in color. Really, yeah, I mean intersectionality
Speaker 1: really for people I don't just experience the world as
Speaker 1: a trans woman. I experience the world as a black
Speaker 1: person and as and I have multiple identities and and
Speaker 1: having a social movements. It's funny, as I've been doing
Speaker 1: a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and a lot
Speaker 1: of black feminists from you know, the seventies and eighties,
Speaker 1: and and really for over thirty years that um, women
Speaker 1: of color, queer women have been critiquing, um a lot
Speaker 1: of second way feminism that you know, thirty years ago,
Speaker 1: black feminists were like, we need to expand this idea
Speaker 1: of womanhood and we cannot um use biological essentialism to
Speaker 1: have conversations about women. That we have to be inclusive.
Speaker 1: So that conversation has been happening for a really long time.
Speaker 1: So I never doubted, I mean, I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: can hear her and and doubt how well informed well
Speaker 1: read you are on these issues. I mean it's unbelievable
Speaker 1: but any but But so that conversation has been happening
Speaker 1: for a really long time, and I mean we just
Speaker 1: I think what we have to look at. I mean
Speaker 1: with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these actresses came
Speaker 1: out and said, you know that he had, you know,
Speaker 1: assaulted him and done the things that he's accused of doing.
Speaker 1: First person he challenged was Lupitte Niango, a black woman.
Speaker 1: When he all these other women, he didn't say anything,
Speaker 1: he didn't say that I didn't do it, he'd But
Speaker 1: the first person challenge it was was Lapie and the Ongo.
Speaker 1: And I think there this can't be a coincidence. Her
Speaker 1: blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed when some trans
Speaker 1: women have come forward and said that they have been
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor in terms of
Speaker 1: the ways in which they've been believed as opposed to
Speaker 1: other women who are not trans. It's it's all very
Speaker 1: very tricky because there's a lot of there's a lot
Speaker 1: of trauma. I think when we're talking about sexual assault
Speaker 1: and sexual harassment, I think it's really really important to
Speaker 1: talk about the healing that has to happen if you've
Speaker 1: been a victim or survivor, and it's one of I
Speaker 1: think the worst things that can happen to someone, if
Speaker 1: not the worst, UM, and so all the healing that
Speaker 1: has to happen, and UM, what's exciting is that. UM.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been rereading you know, UM, some of
Speaker 1: my belthooks and talking back, she says, one of the
Speaker 1: most useful tools that women have, and it's not just
Speaker 1: women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment, is
Speaker 1: our voice to be able to speak up and to
Speaker 1: speak out. And so it's amazing that that I think
Speaker 1: we were just the country was just ready for that.
Speaker 1: But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And
Speaker 1: it's not just because I and I. It's not just
Speaker 1: about including trans women, including women of color, including folks
Speaker 1: with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks,
Speaker 1: But it's like, what does it mean to have these
Speaker 1: folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM,
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in,
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm
Speaker 1: trying to really think about all the folks out there
Speaker 1: who don't have the platform I have, and what do
Speaker 1: they need and what would they want me to say
Speaker 1: when I'm in in these positions, And so much of
Speaker 1: it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans
Speaker 1: woman lover and cox in the in positions. UM, and
Speaker 1: it's seats with seats at the table. But having diverse
Speaker 1: and other folks who don't have the saying privileges I have, well,
Speaker 1: it seems to me that you know, we have to
Speaker 1: start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems
Speaker 1: in place and all. So obviously attitudes sometimes I think
Speaker 1: laws precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and
Speaker 1: then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if
Speaker 1: you look at that, that's a really good example that
Speaker 1: we had the vote Civil Rights Act, in the Voting
Speaker 1: Rights Act um that were past and then black folks
Speaker 1: that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know,
Speaker 1: black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, profile by police, et cetera.
Speaker 1: That's for sure. But I think if sometimes if if
Speaker 1: leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be on their side,
Speaker 1: that sometimes they'd be waiting for a very long time
Speaker 1: to at least take the first step of enacting legislation.
Speaker 1: That's that is hopefully eventually one day fingers crossed going
Speaker 1: to change hearts and minds. But where should we go
Speaker 1: from here. Um, I think it's been so extraordinary to
Speaker 1: see people being able to express their them elves, use
Speaker 1: their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point do
Speaker 1: we need to then take it to the next step.
Speaker 1: And in Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative
Speaker 1: called times Up um that may be a part of
Speaker 1: moving forward on these issues. But but but what are
Speaker 1: they going to do other than raise money for a
Speaker 1: legal defense fund for you know, I mean and and
Speaker 1: not just Hollywood. But how can policies and change and
Speaker 1: how can we put systems in place so that it
Speaker 1: is better for that woman who's working on an assembly
Speaker 1: line at a factory in Iowa. That's part of it.
Speaker 1: Rosa Clemente, who's been doing a lot of work around
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, we have to remember their Puerto Ricans, Um.
Speaker 1: The island is still mostly without power and without clean
Speaker 1: drinking water. She reminded me when we met that that
Speaker 1: protests are important, but then we have to do the
Speaker 1: organizing after the protests, and so the organizing is about
Speaker 1: policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um. So I was at
Speaker 1: times that meeting this past week, and and so the
Speaker 1: Legal Defense Fund, it's wanted of things at times episduring.
Speaker 1: There's other things, other work too. That's that's that's on
Speaker 1: the horizon that that you'll find out more about later.
Speaker 1: That it's about those policy shifts, and I think really
Speaker 1: it's how do we make workplaces safe for everyone? Anti
Speaker 1: sexual harassment policies have existed in of UM organizations for
Speaker 1: a very long time, but so much of that it's
Speaker 1: about not getting sued, but it doesn't change the culture
Speaker 1: in those organizations. So we have to be able to
Speaker 1: change the culture and then who's in power. A lot
Speaker 1: of folks think that it's about having diverse leaderships, that
Speaker 1: we have more women and leadership positions, and more people
Speaker 1: of color and just more diversity and so so so,
Speaker 1: and hopefully that can begin to change the culture so
Speaker 1: that it's not okay to interrupt women and meetings and
Speaker 1: so it's not okay. What is no, that's man's plain. Well.
Speaker 1: I'm doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one
Speaker 1: of my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood
Speaker 1: and Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating,
Speaker 1: and that means if you're at a meeting and a
Speaker 1: woman has this suggestion and everybody is like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it,
Speaker 1: and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he
Speaker 1: peating that men do where a woman makes a point
Speaker 1: and everyone ignores her and then the guy thank you
Speaker 1: for that. It's the same thing and thank you for
Speaker 1: the illustration. But anyway, but but I do think that
Speaker 1: those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not that
Speaker 1: we're in these things are important. I think sometimes people
Speaker 1: think that liberals get sort of you know, want to
Speaker 1: police language and and want to say you can and
Speaker 1: can't say. This is not about that, It's about how
Speaker 1: do we begin to change the culture. Because those cultures
Speaker 1: influence policies and influence the ways in which people are
Speaker 1: treated and they feel safe or not, and the workplates
Speaker 1: are on the street, or there may be sexual harassment policies,
Speaker 1: but I don't think they've been taken seriously. I think
Speaker 1: that when they have like diversity training or sexual harassment awareness,
Speaker 1: that most people just roll their eyes. And now I
Speaker 1: think those times have changed. But do you think that
Speaker 1: more men should be invited into the conversation, Because I
Speaker 1: think right now, at this juncture, I think there are
Speaker 1: a lot of men who are so fearful, and I
Speaker 1: think that some of them believe like we need to
Speaker 1: spend this time listening, but at some point we need
Speaker 1: men to join forces with women and not just listen.
Speaker 1: So do you feel like they've been shut out of
Speaker 1: the conversation too much? I think we have to be
Speaker 1: really careful not to foreground men's voices. I think we're
Speaker 1: talking about white sister gender men's voices in a in
Speaker 1: a in a movement that needs to be about women
Speaker 1: coming to voice and women having a space so that
Speaker 1: we can't foreground those voices. But men, we can't really
Speaker 1: top all of the patriarchy without um men being engaged
Speaker 1: in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory does so
Speaker 1: much work around Black lives matter and around having conversations
Speaker 1: with white people around their own racism, and so I
Speaker 1: think men need to be having conversations with each other,
Speaker 1: and I know some incredible guys who are doing that work.
Speaker 1: UM list of course listening to women of all from backgrounds,
Speaker 1: trans you know, women with disabilities, listening and then having
Speaker 1: conversations with other men and saying and saying this is
Speaker 1: no longer acceptable to talk about women this way and
Speaker 1: to have conversations, and then what can we do to
Speaker 1: change policies, to change hearts and minds? And then how
Speaker 1: can we interrogate ourselves. I think a lot of men
Speaker 1: to what I've come to realize this movement has been
Speaker 1: really intense for me. I got to, um, I can't
Speaker 1: BlimE me when I talked about this, because I'm not
Speaker 1: maybe ready to fully talk about it. But I got
Speaker 1: to confront a man that I had had a sexual
Speaker 1: encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then something
Speaker 1: happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to recently
Speaker 1: recently confront him about that. And what was interesting for
Speaker 1: me in the confrontation is that he had no idea.
Speaker 1: He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that
Speaker 1: he didn't have consent. And I think so often the
Speaker 1: idea of consent is something that that that that men
Speaker 1: aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear that
Speaker 1: what happened was not consentual and it was not okay,
Speaker 1: and I was able to assert that to him. But
Speaker 1: that's a different kind of conversation. What does consent look like? UM?
Speaker 1: A woman I know name who's who teaches um sex
Speaker 1: and in New York and she teaches kids, she's having conversations,
Speaker 1: you know, in middle school, really early on about what
Speaker 1: consent is and looks like. And we have to be
Speaker 1: really careful about the messages we're sending to our young
Speaker 1: people of all genders about what consent is. And so
Speaker 1: those kinds of conversations men should be having with themselves,
Speaker 1: with um, with each other, and then ultimately with women
Speaker 1: and then listening more and then we all have to
Speaker 1: be engaged in changing the culture. Is it just too
Speaker 1: early to kind of push that, as you say, foreground
Speaker 1: their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voy I don't,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean and I love I love ground
Speaker 1: exactly foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is
Speaker 1: that for far too often we've listened to men and
Speaker 1: not listen to women. Were at a point now when
Speaker 1: women when women are finally being believed and something heard
Speaker 1: and her, and we have to continue that we have.
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that we're that doesn't mean because I
Speaker 1: love man, doesn't mean we hate man, doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: we want to sort of demonize men. But we have
Speaker 1: to foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then
Speaker 1: I think to whether it's not just women who are
Speaker 1: experiencing sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember,
Speaker 1: came forward with some really important information about a well
Speaker 1: known actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews
Speaker 1: and other other men have come forward and and so
Speaker 1: that they too have been and I know a lot
Speaker 1: of men and just personally who have experienced sexual assault.
Speaker 1: So um, it's a conversation that we all need to have.
Speaker 1: But then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think,
Speaker 1: for so long as it was just okay to do
Speaker 1: this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should
Speaker 1: also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know. A
Speaker 1: big story this will air a couple of weeks after
Speaker 1: this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention
Speaker 1: is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that
Speaker 1: really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels
Speaker 1: because I think at per usual, Michelle Williams was trying
Speaker 1: to be super accommodating and saying, I'll do whatever it takes,
Speaker 1: so I'll, you know, skip my holiday, all right, I'll
Speaker 1: go to Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever, and then she
Speaker 1: have the same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid
Speaker 1: one point five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that
Speaker 1: there was some stipulation in his contract that he had
Speaker 1: approval over the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, I mean, the man held
Speaker 1: it up so that he could get a bunch of money,
Speaker 1: and the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to
Speaker 1: be accommodating, and you know, do this whenever you want
Speaker 1: to get paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks
Speaker 1: to eighty dollars a day perum, which which which speaks
Speaker 1: to I think women and are are discomfort in speaking
Speaker 1: up and demanding things and trying to be liked and
Speaker 1: being the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course
Speaker 1: eventually gave the money to the Times Up movement and
Speaker 1: to the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why
Speaker 1: does this keep happening and how do you ussure in
Speaker 1: a major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there,
Speaker 1: and I can when I when I hear that, I
Speaker 1: know I can relate to, especially being still feeling new
Speaker 1: to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so
Speaker 1: lucky to be here that I don't want to do
Speaker 1: anything to piss people, and I don't want to do
Speaker 1: anything to piss anybody off. So I'm like, what do
Speaker 1: you need? And always trying to arrive and and be
Speaker 1: easy to work with and eating and agreeable and never difficult.
Speaker 1: And so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh,
Speaker 1: I think there's so many issues. There's so much that
Speaker 1: we probably don't even know about. In terms of the
Speaker 1: contract negotiations. I'm excited that the money is going to
Speaker 1: Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. Um. I
Speaker 1: think Michelle Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her
Speaker 1: body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this
Speaker 1: is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I
Speaker 1: just love I love her. I don't know her personally,
Speaker 1: but I love the way that she's gone about all this.
Speaker 1: But part of this is I think women starting to
Speaker 1: become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and
Speaker 1: not being so worried and being able to demand things
Speaker 1: and not be afraid what that says when it comes
Speaker 1: to And I think I think it's Susie Orman who
Speaker 1: said that we need to talk about money more in general,
Speaker 1: so that we are having conversations how much are you making?
Speaker 1: You know, so that we should be openly having conversations
Speaker 1: about transparency are other people getting? And then so what
Speaker 1: should I be asking for? So so that that's part
Speaker 1: of it. But there's something I really get that desire
Speaker 1: to be like what do you need? You know? They
Speaker 1: were reshooting the film because of um the actor who
Speaker 1: they needed and needed to know. But I don't. I
Speaker 1: don't know for a reason. But like, so I get
Speaker 1: where Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't.
Speaker 1: I get it. I really do alaudatory in a way.
Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's like why should we be
Speaker 1: pleasers and why should we be so helpful? Or maybe
Speaker 1: the men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going
Speaker 1: to say, is that a good thing? A bad thing?
Speaker 1: It's so confusing. Oprah talked about how often talks about
Speaker 1: her how her life changed when she let go of
Speaker 1: her disease to please and I'm I'm still learning that,
Speaker 1: um but really choosing them. Burne Brown says her boundary
Speaker 1: mantras use discomfort over resentment, so we're setting boundaries and
Speaker 1: and um not being in a space of like constantly
Speaker 1: wanting to please, but so that we can assert ourselves
Speaker 1: and feel and understand our value. I don't I don't
Speaker 1: know Michelle personally, and I think she I don't know her,
Speaker 1: but I think she knows her value with I think
Speaker 1: four Oscar nominations in this body of work. But um,
Speaker 1: she's just not a jerk anyway. In closing right, Okay, No,
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, she's like, I mean,
Speaker 1: she's a mench Yeah, she's a mention. She's a mention.
Speaker 1: Any who, Um, are there other projects you're working on
Speaker 1: that you can talk about? Freak Show right, Freak shows
Speaker 1: out now, Freak shows in theaters and on demand. It's
Speaker 1: a beautiful UM movie set in high school about a
Speaker 1: young kidney Billy Bloom, who is kind of gender non binary,
Speaker 1: likes to dress and fantastic costumes at school and it
Speaker 1: gets bullied and it ends up running for homecoming Queen
Speaker 1: UM and it's a really beautiful story. I have a
Speaker 1: teeny tiny part in your. Trudy Styler directs and Bette
Speaker 1: Midler has a wonderful role in it. So folks can
Speaker 1: I think in l a New York City freak show
Speaker 1: now or on demand. It's you can just get it anywhere.
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. I love that movie. Um and your model
Speaker 1: for model, Oh my god, that's crazy. Beyonce chose me
Speaker 1: to be one of the faces of her autumn winter
Speaker 1: campaign for Ivy Park. The posters are still in top
Speaker 1: shops all over the world. I still get it's an
Speaker 1: active it's an active where it's her at leisure line.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I was an Ivy Park fan even before
Speaker 1: I was modeling for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you.
Speaker 1: Are you and be like this, I just did the
Speaker 1: thing where your fingers are together, like you're super tight. No,
Speaker 1: I've met Beyonce once. She was about to give birth
Speaker 1: when we shot the ad campaign, so I've only met
Speaker 1: her once. We're not tight like that. Um, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say,
Speaker 1: we're very very close, you know. I don't do that
Speaker 1: whole thing of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm
Speaker 1: just gonna be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she
Speaker 1: she's so I mean. I've interviewed her a couple of times.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen her for years, but in the early
Speaker 1: days of Destiny's Child and then when she started on
Speaker 1: her solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her
Speaker 1: and I just I just adore her. I think she
Speaker 1: is so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be
Speaker 1: She's still the queen of us all. I have a
Speaker 1: few queens, and Beyonce's one, and I remain a genormous fan.
Speaker 1: Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god, I have
Speaker 1: many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis, Um.
Speaker 1: When you look ahead at this year, you know what
Speaker 1: what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was
Speaker 1: funny you were saying you wanted that role and a
Speaker 1: continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a
Speaker 1: New Black popped up. What are your goals? I want
Speaker 1: to get better at being an artist and being an actress.
Speaker 1: I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the
Speaker 1: next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful
Speaker 1: material for me and I I want to get better
Speaker 1: at what I do. I think being an actor is
Speaker 1: very difficult. In doing it well, um, it's difficult, but
Speaker 1: it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can
Speaker 1: get better, get older, and get better at. So I
Speaker 1: want to continue to expand all the notes. New show
Speaker 1: called gland Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a
Speaker 1: it's a competition reality show from makeup artist UM Kim
Speaker 1: Kardashian West is one of the executive dos. I'm a
Speaker 1: co executive producer as well, and I'm also a host
Speaker 1: and judge and We're looking for the next big breakout
Speaker 1: star in the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February.
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of it. I've seen a lot of
Speaker 1: the episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand
Speaker 1: that makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today. I
Speaker 1: thank god. I love having my makeup three days. But
Speaker 1: the makeup is not just about looking pretty. That it's
Speaker 1: an art. And these makeup arts we have on the
Speaker 1: show really show you that. And the challenges that we
Speaker 1: give them. Um, you illustrate that and it's fun. It's
Speaker 1: so much fun. So you're not only doing all your
Speaker 1: acting stuff, You're like turning into a mogul. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to do continue to do what I love and do
Speaker 1: and I love a lot of different things, and so
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sort of go with the passion and
Speaker 1: being a space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not
Speaker 1: just one thing, and so I'm getting to explore all
Speaker 1: of these different sides of myself and showing the world
Speaker 1: that they can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,
Speaker 1: I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so
Speaker 1: happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less
Speaker 1: to visit with us. This has been so much fun.
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see how you edit this because
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot of big thank you this week
Speaker 1: to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording,
Speaker 1: and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna
Speaker 1: Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we
Speaker 1: love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't
Speaker 1: want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our
Speaker 1: assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Beena
Speaker 1: over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and Beth,
Speaker 1: my assistant. I can't forget her. We love her a
Speaker 1: lot because she puts up with me every day. Beth's
Speaker 1: a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips wrote
Speaker 1: our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark,
Speaker 1: but I don't even know you. And Brian and I
Speaker 1: are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week,
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for listening, everyone,