WEBVTT - Wonder Woman: Laverne Cox 0:00:05.240 --> 0:00:08.760 Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and Hi listeners. Well another week, 0:00:08.880 --> 0:00:12.040 another wonder woman. Yes, and here in Los Angeles. I'm 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.040 very happy to have you in my hometown. And believe me, 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:17.319 I'm happy to be here because it's nineteen degrees in 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.759 New York City right now, it's like here anyway. We 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.480 just finished chatting with actress and activist Laverne Cox, who 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:26.640 was so nice to come in on a Sunday morning 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:29.440 and spend some time with us. I've interviewed Laverne before, 0:00:29.720 --> 0:00:34.159 and she is so smart, she's compassionate, she's thoughtful, she's 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:38.760 extraordinarily well versed on the issues, and per usual, it 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:40.839 was a real treat talking to her today. Yeah, I 0:00:41.120 --> 0:00:42.800 totally agree. I mean, like a lot of people, I 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.920 was first introduced to her in her role as Sophia 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.080 on Netflix's show or in Just the New Black, which 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:52.280 is one of my favorite shows. She's one of my 0:00:52.320 --> 0:00:55.880 favorite characters. I just love her in that show. And 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:59.400 she's also been in some reality shows like I Want 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:01.720 to Work for Ditty, which is something you know, one 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.000 of your favorite shows that was on v H one 0:01:04.160 --> 0:01:06.959 back in two thousand eight. Yeah, these people just got 0:01:07.000 --> 0:01:10.880 to live my dream Anyway, if you know Laverne, you 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.760 likely also know that she's transgender. She's a prominent spokeswoman 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.120 and activist for l g B t Q causes, and 0:01:18.160 --> 0:01:21.080 she actually helped to inspire you, Katie, to make your 0:01:21.120 --> 0:01:25.039 documentary on gender for National Geographic. That's right, she did, 0:01:25.160 --> 0:01:27.480 and as you'll hear in the course of our conversation, 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:30.120 it was all because of an encounter we had on 0:01:30.160 --> 0:01:32.680 my talk show a few years ago, and she has 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:36.000 since really become my guiding light as I've set out 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:40.840 on a journey to understand and educate myself about transgender issues. 0:01:41.120 --> 0:01:44.039 And I think this conversation is for everyone, but for 0:01:44.120 --> 0:01:46.280 our listeners who need a primer or even just a 0:01:46.319 --> 0:01:50.640 refresher on being trans in America what it means, I'd 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:54.280 highly recommend watching Katie's documentary Gender Revolution. I'd say that 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.400 even if you weren't my Brian, my co host, or 0:01:57.440 --> 0:02:00.320 you could check out the corresponding episode of this pod cast, 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:04.120 which is number nineteen from back in February of last year. 0:02:04.400 --> 0:02:07.800 We began our conversation this morning in Los Angeles by 0:02:07.880 --> 0:02:11.040 talking about how Laverne and I met about four years ago. 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:19.160 We have an interesting backstory if you will, so just 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.600 for our listeners, And I'm not embarrassed to talk about 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:24.800 it because I think it's important to ollan the fact 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.200 that I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes. 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.040 With your help, but a few years ago on my 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.480 talk show is doing something with the right spirit of 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:37.800 trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't 0:02:37.840 --> 0:02:40.240 being talked about very much at that moment in time. 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:43.360 I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:45.959 not four years ago. I know it was that crazy 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:49.120 years ago this this month. Actually it aired four years 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.880 ago this month. Well, Carmen Career came on the show. 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.080 Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested 0:02:56.200 --> 0:03:00.760 in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she 0:03:00.919 --> 0:03:05.200 came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment, 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.560 I asked her about her private parts. You're still your 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:12.919 your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I 0:03:12.960 --> 0:03:15.200 don't want to talk about it because it's it's still 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:19.880 it's really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite 0:03:19.960 --> 0:03:23.560 understand how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:26.600 would be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it 0:03:26.680 --> 0:03:30.160 was offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:33.680 saved the day and came out and we had a 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.480 conversation about it. But it really exploded in the trans community. 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:40.680 People were really upset about it, angry with me, and 0:03:40.720 --> 0:03:45.400 it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later 0:03:45.440 --> 0:03:48.720 on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:52.800 sat down and had a long conversation about why that 0:03:52.880 --> 0:03:55.960 was so inappropriate. And I remember the producer's Laverne, they 0:03:56.000 --> 0:03:57.920 did not want me to do that. They were like, no, 0:03:57.960 --> 0:04:00.480 don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to 0:04:00.520 --> 0:04:03.600 talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw 0:04:03.680 --> 0:04:09.120 Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:13.120 curious what your reaction was, Katie, Oh, it was. It's 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.160 such as that was an intense timing. You're taking me back. 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.800 First of all, I want to say that publicists producers 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:23.400 often say don't talk about something and that, and that 0:04:23.440 --> 0:04:26.320 if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:30.920 sort of perpetuates and so, but then when you don't 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.400 talk about it, then there we don't really get a 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:35.360 chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.560 have the teachable moment is the way you you put 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:41.159 it at the time, and so I was so excited 0:04:41.200 --> 0:04:43.280 that you were willing and open to talk about it. 0:04:43.320 --> 0:04:45.880 And I think about the moments I've had, because we 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.440 think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:51.920 out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes 0:04:52.000 --> 0:04:56.920 or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply, 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:00.160 deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:02.080 though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:04.640 was for you um to be going through that and 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.440 to have the courage to be on television and to 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:09.880 say I made a mistake and what can we do 0:05:09.960 --> 0:05:12.760 to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.200 it's so painful. But I think that, and as I 0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:18.239 saw the speech I made in London at the Attitude 0:05:18.240 --> 0:05:21.440 Awards about that's for me feels like this model of 0:05:21.480 --> 0:05:23.760 how we can go forward. It's going to be painful, 0:05:24.040 --> 0:05:27.360 it's going to hurt, but if we can be accountable 0:05:27.720 --> 0:05:30.520 and be teachable, then we can begin to model that 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:33.600 for other people. So when it all happened, though at 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.240 the time, what was exciting for me is that my 0:05:36.320 --> 0:05:39.000 whole life. I've been watching UM TV talk to have 0:05:39.040 --> 0:05:41.960 done presentations about TV talk shows that have since the 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.039 fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people and reduced, 0:05:46.080 --> 0:05:49.040 not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and transition and 0:05:49.120 --> 0:05:52.400 body parts. But what I said on the show is 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.680 when we focus on that, that becomes the only takeaway. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:58.520 But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and having watched 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.479 those interviews over the year, I've never really seen anyone 0:06:01.880 --> 0:06:05.039 on television pushed back and say maybe we should be 0:06:05.080 --> 0:06:07.520 having a different conversation. So what was really exciting for 0:06:07.640 --> 0:06:10.440 me is that Karmen and I got the opportunity to 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:12.640 UM to talk back and say maybe we should be 0:06:12.640 --> 0:06:15.599 having a different conversation. And so I think when I 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:20.359 saw Twitter exploding, what was exciting for me is is 0:06:20.440 --> 0:06:23.160 that because of social media and because of that moment, 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:25.120 Carmen and I were to have with you because you 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.280 we pre shot that so you didn't actually have to 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:31.640 air that, right. That's that's that's actually a little interesting 0:06:32.040 --> 0:06:37.920 factoid about the whole situation. You know, my producer said, 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.400 do you want to take that out? Because you know 0:06:40.560 --> 0:06:44.000 it made me look foolish and and and deservedly so. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:46.920 And I said, no, keep it in because I think 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.800 it's a maybe a question that other people would have 0:06:49.839 --> 0:06:52.679 asked or at least thought about. And I want people 0:06:52.720 --> 0:06:55.800 to understand that being a trans person is much more 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:58.920 than your anatomy, you know, it has has very little 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.320 to do with it. And of course I've been so 0:07:01.520 --> 0:07:04.600 educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But I also 0:07:04.640 --> 0:07:07.800 think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, certainly 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:11.640 there's there people have there's still an educational thing that 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:15.120 still needs to happen around trans folks. Is someny misunderstandings 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:18.280 and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:21.880 now it's different. I feel it's really different. And so 0:07:22.080 --> 0:07:26.160 that moment feels really pivotal. And I'm I'm so grateful 0:07:26.200 --> 0:07:28.360 to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:30.720 edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back. 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.200 And I'm sure it was really painful for you the 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.240 way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um, 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:40.760 but sometimes that's a necessary part of it, is I mean, 0:07:40.800 --> 0:07:43.160 it is interesting when it comes to a social movement 0:07:43.280 --> 0:07:46.240 sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger, 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:48.440 and I think it's part of the process, but I 0:07:48.480 --> 0:07:50.960 so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave 0:07:50.960 --> 0:07:54.640 it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:56.720 a clip because it was so nice and I was 0:07:56.760 --> 0:07:59.200 so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second. 0:07:59.720 --> 0:08:02.760 It important that we begin to look for models of 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.440 transformation and encourage that, and when the way we got 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:08.600 there with Katie is that I was willing to have 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:12.760 conversations with her with love and empathy. I do not 0:08:12.880 --> 0:08:16.040 believe that we can get to that transformation by publicly 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:22.000 shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch these 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:25.640 shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as some did, 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:28.200 particularly in the trans community, what do you think of 0:08:28.280 --> 0:08:31.320 the key lessons that people who are not trans can 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:35.079 take away from that back and forth? For people who 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.560 aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, there's so 0:08:37.559 --> 0:08:41.160 many things. Um part of part of it, I think 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:44.840 is the love and empathy piece that's so often every 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.480 what I've learned, especially over the last years, that not 0:08:47.559 --> 0:08:50.200 everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. I 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:51.720 think with Katie, it was clear that you were you 0:08:52.080 --> 0:08:54.079 have great, good intentions and it's got some things a 0:08:54.160 --> 0:08:57.200 little off. And so then when the intentions are clear, 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.079 that we can begin to approach people with love and 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.880 empathy and find way ways to communicate our message better. 0:09:03.000 --> 0:09:06.360 And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.080 feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.600 to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean, 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.440 I I've been one of those people. Can you see 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.600 their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this 0:09:19.679 --> 0:09:23.079 approach I have, I have, and and learning doesn't always 0:09:23.080 --> 0:09:26.360 happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think, 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:28.480 I mean, part of what I get to do as 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:30.680 an artist too, is that when you as an actor, 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.080 that's the work of being an actor is having empathy, 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:36.520 having empathy for a character, characters that I play. I 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:39.760 can never sort of approach a character with like I 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:41.960 don't like this person. I always have to find a way, 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.640 even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:49.040 empathize with her um and find a way in So 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:51.800 that's the work of being an artist is to is 0:09:51.840 --> 0:09:54.800 to have empathy and love for the characters I play 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.480 into hopefully convey that to audiences, and so that's the 0:09:57.520 --> 0:09:59.360 work that I do as an artist, and so I 0:09:59.400 --> 0:10:03.280 think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I do elsewhere. 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.800 Being an artist is what informs everything that I do. 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:10.160 And UM, they're the legacy of revolutionary artists. Progressive artists, 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.840 through their work and their activism, have proceeded that way, 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.560 and so I have a wonderful legacy to look to. 0:10:17.600 --> 0:10:21.120 We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen around the 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.199 issue of marriage equality. UM. Understanding around trans issues is 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.440 probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, but 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:32.679 that was maybe the fastest social change in America than 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.120 anybody can remember. Part of it had to do with 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.760 the change in calling it marriage equality as opposed to 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:41.280 gay marriage. How you talk about it, how you kind 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:45.920 of find the way into people who are maybe instinctually 0:10:46.000 --> 0:10:49.000 not as understanding or haven't come across these people as 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:52.320 much as you know as much as some others. Um, 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:56.280 do you think there are things that the trans community 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:58.840 has done or still needs to do in order to 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:02.439 make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do. 0:11:02.559 --> 0:11:05.000 And UM, there's fewer trans people than there are a 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.440 game lesbian people. UM. The way the way you've alluded 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:11.559 to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:15.240 to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:17.120 that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.280 trying to do is to shape the conversation in a 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.640 different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack 0:11:21.800 --> 0:11:25.679 right now in this country. There's we connect there's just 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.640 the list of like really legislative things that are happening, 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.080 policy things that are happening around with ending you know, 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.840 guidelines for trans kids, um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.960 in state legislatures all over the country, transfolk stums. There's 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:40.320 a fight for us to be able to serve openly 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:43.320 in the military right now. Um it really it goes 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:45.520 on and on and on. There's t seventeen with the 0:11:45.559 --> 0:11:47.640 deadliest year on record for trans people in trans of 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:50.320 being murdered. Um our lives are on the line. So 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:53.200 a lot of it is about it's an intersectional issue. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:55.520 So when we talk about trans stuff, and it gets 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:58.200 complicated because it's not just a gender thing, it's a 0:11:58.320 --> 0:12:00.800 race thing, it's a class thing. It's an act this education, 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.920 it's an access to housing and jobs and so all 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:06.200 of those things sort of are diminishing our left dances. 0:12:06.280 --> 0:12:08.400 Sexual assault. I was going to say, it's it's a 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.280 crying thing, and I want to talk about intersexuality. I 0:12:11.280 --> 0:12:13.880 want to talk about sort of being under assault in 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:17.360 this Trump administration, in the current policy in a second. 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.080 But before we do that, Laverne, I want to talk 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:25.000 about your story, your life story, because it's so fascinating 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.920 and I'm sure was harroin when you were younger. You 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:31.840 were born in Mobile, Obama, you were raised by a 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:35.280 single mom. You never met your dad. Um, I met 0:12:35.320 --> 0:12:38.959 my dad once. You did when you were how old? Um? 0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:40.679 I think I was in third grade. I was in 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.360 third grade. Do you remember that? I do. I'm not 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:47.079 going to talk about it, really. I think there's some things, 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.680 the whole circumstances leading up to that that we're really 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:52.720 really painful. And I've worked through all that with my mom, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.880 and so I don't respect to my mother and my family. 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:58.000 I can't talk about all I totally understand. But yes, 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.079 once I met my my logical product you had and 0:13:01.200 --> 0:13:05.400 I you have an identical twin brother, yes, and just 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:09.000 just one brother, just one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.600 just curious what it was like growing up. I think 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:15.400 about you and Mobile, Alabama. I know you attempted suicide 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.880 when you were eleven years old. Paint a picture for us, 0:13:18.960 --> 0:13:21.720 leave learn about what life was like. I mean, I 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.480 have a lovely therapist now. She reminds me often that 0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:28.520 it's both and so like. Yes, I was bullied. Um. 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:31.160 I was chased home from school practically every day, and 0:13:31.400 --> 0:13:33.120 kids wanted to beat me up. I got beaten up 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.080 a lot. I was a very fast runner. I didn't 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.640 feel safe anywhere. But I was also a really creative kid. 0:13:39.840 --> 0:13:42.840 I started dancing when I walked, and I begged my 0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:44.640 mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:47.520 I was in third grade, she found a free program 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:49.679 where I could study dance. And that I believe that 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:52.040 dancing saved my life. I did. I have quit wrap 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.000 dance routines and like competed in talent shows all over 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.240 the Southeast, and there's still trophies in my house back 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.199 in Alabama. He said, I know you have said it 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:04.040 saved your life. Yeah. Being creative and I was a 0:14:04.040 --> 0:14:08.160 good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from 0:14:08.160 --> 0:14:11.040 the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.880 all the time reading I was, I was a total 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:17.720 nerd as smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really, 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:21.560 he's smarter. My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um. 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:23.760 And by the way, if you haven't watched or Just 0:14:23.800 --> 0:14:27.960 a New Black, you can meet LaVerne's brother. He's definitely 0:14:28.000 --> 0:14:30.480 playing a character though. My brother is punk rock and 0:14:30.520 --> 0:14:33.960 god he was. He defines find himself as a practicing him, 0:14:33.960 --> 0:14:36.880 a sexual who is Negro goth, punk rock, um and 0:14:36.960 --> 0:14:40.280 a free black man. He's um, He's a he's he's 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:44.040 a musician and an artist and his work is very 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:46.160 in Lamar is his name in lamar dot com. If 0:14:46.160 --> 0:14:48.360 people care about his work. He really sort of hates. 0:14:48.640 --> 0:14:50.320 He hates that he didn't Orange A New Black because 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:53.160 people It's so funny because if you google most famous, 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:55.760 well known trans people, there's like before. People always want 0:14:55.760 --> 0:14:57.840 to see what trans people like before, and people have 0:14:57.880 --> 0:15:00.480 a photo of my brother and then me said by side, 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.840 I'm like, that's kind of hilarious. But they have a 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:04.720 photo of him from or Just a New Black, and 0:15:04.760 --> 0:15:06.240 he doesn't even look like that in real Lafe. Here 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.640 it's like eyeliner or any long hair. But that's the 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:11.080 character he played. That's the character he played. Yeah, my 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.040 character pre transition. But but when when did you When 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:19.000 did you start struggling with your gender identity? I you 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.080 do you remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't 0:15:23.080 --> 0:15:25.560 a struggle for me. It was a struggle for everybody else. 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:28.560 I was all. I was always feminine, I was always 0:15:28.840 --> 0:15:30.600 you know, I really thought that boy, there was no 0:15:30.600 --> 0:15:32.400 difference between boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me 0:15:32.440 --> 0:15:33.760 I was a boy, and I knew that I was 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:36.360 a girl, so I didn't think there were any differences. 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:38.840 And then there was a therapy moment in third grade. 0:15:38.880 --> 0:15:40.440 I've talked about this little talked about this a lot. 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:42.960 My third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:44.360 on the phone and say, your son will end up 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:45.800 in New Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get 0:15:45.840 --> 0:15:47.920 him to therapy right away. So I went to therapy, 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.960 and there was there was this whole sort of I 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.400 guess we would call it reparative therapy around my gender 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:54.640 expression at the time that was trying to trying to 0:15:54.680 --> 0:15:57.560 fix me. And up until that time, I didn't think 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.840 that there was really a difference between boys and girls. 0:16:00.000 --> 0:16:02.040 I knew that I was being bullied. I knew that 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.880 people were um. People called me all kinds of anti 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.280 gay slurs. They called me a girl, and I think, 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:11.640 I said, said, the interesting the irony of my life 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:13.800 is that before I transition, kids called me a girl, 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:18.440 and after I transition, people call me a man um 0:16:18.720 --> 0:16:22.720 And so, my gosh, it was just it was intense, 0:16:22.760 --> 0:16:25.400 but I feel like was everyone else's problem I and 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:28.280 then it became and it's something I internalized. I internalized 0:16:28.440 --> 0:16:31.000 a tremendous amount of transphobia and I was like, I 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:32.760 can't be this. And it wasn't until I moved to 0:16:32.800 --> 0:16:34.640 New York and met real trans people that I was 0:16:34.680 --> 0:16:37.960 able to accept trans people and then accept myself. But 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.520 it was a problem for everybody else. Leante and Price 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.800 my idol. She's an offer singer and she when she 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:45.240 talks about race, she said, it's not it's not the 0:16:45.240 --> 0:16:48.920 black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. And that's really 0:16:48.920 --> 0:16:50.720 how I see it with with the gender stuff. And 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.000 I think for for me, I had to sort of 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:56.320 get find access to medical care and find ways to 0:16:56.360 --> 0:16:59.680 survive because it's hard. It's as smart as you think. 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:01.680 On my be I was working in a restaurant, a 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:04.240 drag queen restaurant before Orange the New Black sort of 0:17:04.280 --> 0:17:07.080 became a sensation and or in New York City. And 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:08.960 I have a college degree and I was writing, you know, 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:11.120 articles for Huffing Compost, and I kind of a smart chick. 0:17:11.280 --> 0:17:13.199 But a lot of people wouldn't have hired me. You know, 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:15.639 I couldn't really get a job. There's a lot of 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.040 people who wouldn't have hired me. It's brilliant, as I 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:21.280 might seem, um, And there's a lot there's a lot 0:17:21.359 --> 0:17:24.360 of trans people out there who are brilliant, who can't 0:17:24.359 --> 0:17:27.239 get jobs because they're trans. And you were inspired, at 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:29.879 least in part by a trans woman named Candice Kane. 0:17:30.280 --> 0:17:32.760 For people in our audience who don't know who she is, 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.199 can you describe her and tell her tell us the 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.400 impact she had in your life. Candice Kane. I love 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.400 Candice Kane. Um. She's a New York City legend, and 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:43.840 she's a trans woman. And a lot of people got 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:46.320 to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality show I Am Kate, 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.240 But before that, in two thousand and seven, she became 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:52.000 the first openly transgender actress to have a recurring role 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:53.440 in a prime time TV show, and their show is 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.240 Dirty Sexy Money. That was eleven years ago, and that 0:17:56.280 --> 0:17:59.520 moment made me believe that it was possible to be 0:17:59.600 --> 0:18:01.480 openly trance and have a career as an actor. I've 0:18:01.480 --> 0:18:03.359 been At this point, I had a degree in dance. 0:18:03.400 --> 0:18:06.680 I studied acting and dance in college. I had done 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.479 a number of independent films and been and just been 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.679 going to acting class every week, you know, and turning 0:18:11.760 --> 0:18:14.359 and turned to student Susan Batson studio in New York City, 0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:16.879 and I mopped the floors and answered the phone, so 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.479 I can get acting classes for free. Thank you, Susan. 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.560 It's had a little scholarship. And so it was being 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:26.119 an actress something I've been. I committed myself to, you know, 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:28.440 just and just doing the grind in New York, doing 0:18:28.480 --> 0:18:31.240 the off railway theater or student films or whatever I 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:33.240 could do, just to work. And when I saw that 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.760 moment from Candice, I was like, this is the moment, 0:18:36.200 --> 0:18:39.240 and that I sent out postcards. I love this story. 0:18:39.320 --> 0:18:41.600 By the way, was this sending out postcards from New 0:18:41.680 --> 0:18:44.159 York or from mobile? It was I was in New York, Okay, 0:18:44.280 --> 0:18:46.399 So it's already in New York. I went to college 0:18:46.400 --> 0:18:49.600 in New York and Um sent out postcards to agents 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:52.359 and casting director. It's like five and I was like, 0:18:52.440 --> 0:18:54.640 Laverne Cox is the answered all your transender acting? Because 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:56.120 I mean there was sort of a niche for being 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.840 trans and being an actor. Not a lot of great 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:00.520 parts at the time, but there were there was something 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:04.439 mostly sex workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny, 0:19:04.480 --> 0:19:07.400 but it kind of is. UM. And then the manager 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:09.159 that I have now to this day, pa Heloppo, is 0:19:09.200 --> 0:19:11.040 one of the four meetings I got from that those 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:13.639 five postcards. That's amazing. I mean, that's a real lesson, 0:19:13.680 --> 0:19:16.520 by the way, an ingenuity and persistence and just putting 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:18.720 yourself out there that you sent all these postcards out 0:19:18.840 --> 0:19:21.000 and you got four meetings from the meetings. I had 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.120 a commercial agent for a minute that didn't work out, 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.359 but then I got a legit acting agent. Um. Pa 0:19:25.359 --> 0:19:27.520 Heloppo is my agent for many years now. He's my manager, 0:19:28.000 --> 0:19:30.400 and he saw something in me. And for there were 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:32.919 many years I didn't work at all. Over the eleven 0:19:33.000 --> 0:19:35.280 years that we've been together. That would be like, my guys, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:36.840 why had he not dropped me? You know? If you 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:39.160 have an agent, you have a client and they're not working. 0:19:39.440 --> 0:19:41.320 But he just saw something and then he stuck with 0:19:41.359 --> 0:19:44.400 me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has. 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:47.400 I mean, you did a number of appearances on Lawn Order, 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.960 I know, and then you did some reality shows, some 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.399 independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of 0:19:54.400 --> 0:19:57.159 documentary and one one in particular about the lives of 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:00.800