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Speaker 1: Hi Brian, Hi Katie, and Hi listeners. Well another week,

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Speaker 1: another wonder woman. Yes, and here in Los Angeles. I'm

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Speaker 1: very happy to have you in my hometown. And believe me,

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Speaker 1: I'm happy to be here because it's nineteen degrees in

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Speaker 1: New York City right now, it's like here anyway. We

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Speaker 1: just finished chatting with actress and activist Laverne Cox, who

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Speaker 1: was so nice to come in on a Sunday morning

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Speaker 1: and spend some time with us. I've interviewed Laverne before,

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Speaker 1: and she is so smart, she's compassionate, she's thoughtful, she's

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Speaker 1: extraordinarily well versed on the issues, and per usual, it

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Speaker 1: was a real treat talking to her today. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: totally agree. I mean, like a lot of people, I

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Speaker 1: was first introduced to her in her role as Sophia

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Speaker 1: on Netflix's show or in Just the New Black, which

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Speaker 1: is one of my favorite shows. She's one of my

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Speaker 1: favorite characters. I just love her in that show. And

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Speaker 1: she's also been in some reality shows like I Want

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Speaker 1: to Work for Ditty, which is something you know, one

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Speaker 1: of your favorite shows that was on v H one

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Speaker 1: back in two thousand eight. Yeah, these people just got

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Speaker 1: to live my dream Anyway, if you know Laverne, you

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Speaker 1: likely also know that she's transgender. She's a prominent spokeswoman

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Speaker 1: and activist for l g B t Q causes, and

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Speaker 1: she actually helped to inspire you, Katie, to make your

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Speaker 1: documentary on gender for National Geographic. That's right, she did,

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Speaker 1: and as you'll hear in the course of our conversation,

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Speaker 1: it was all because of an encounter we had on

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Speaker 1: my talk show a few years ago, and she has

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Speaker 1: since really become my guiding light as I've set out

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Speaker 1: on a journey to understand and educate myself about transgender issues.

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Speaker 1: And I think this conversation is for everyone, but for

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Speaker 1: our listeners who need a primer or even just a

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Speaker 1: refresher on being trans in America what it means, I'd

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Speaker 1: highly recommend watching Katie's documentary Gender Revolution. I'd say that

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Speaker 1: even if you weren't my Brian, my co host, or

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Speaker 1: you could check out the corresponding episode of this pod cast,

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Speaker 1: which is number nineteen from back in February of last year.

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Speaker 1: We began our conversation this morning in Los Angeles by

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Speaker 1: talking about how Laverne and I met about four years ago.

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Speaker 1: We have an interesting backstory if you will, so just

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Speaker 1: for our listeners, And I'm not embarrassed to talk about

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Speaker 1: it because I think it's important to ollan the fact

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Speaker 1: that I screwed up and what I learned from my mistakes.

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Speaker 1: With your help, but a few years ago on my

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Speaker 1: talk show is doing something with the right spirit of

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Speaker 1: trying to help people understand transgender issues, which really wasn't

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Speaker 1: being talked about very much at that moment in time.

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Speaker 1: I think was back in two thousand and fourteen, and

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Speaker 1: not four years ago. I know it was that crazy

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Speaker 1: years ago this this month. Actually it aired four years

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Speaker 1: ago this month. Well, Carmen Career came on the show.

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Speaker 1: Carmen Career as a trans model, and she was interested

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Speaker 1: in being the first Victoria's Secrets trans model. And she

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Speaker 1: came on and in a very awkward and inappropriate moment,

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Speaker 1: I asked her about her private parts. You're still your

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Speaker 1: your Your private parts are different now, aren't they. I

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Speaker 1: don't want to talk about it because it's it's still

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Speaker 1: it's really personal, and I don't know. I didn't quite

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Speaker 1: understand how offensive that was to someone. Of course, it

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Speaker 1: would be offensive if someone asked me, and clearly it

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Speaker 1: was offensive to Carmen of you know, understandably. So Laverne

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Speaker 1: saved the day and came out and we had a

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Speaker 1: conversation about it. But it really exploded in the trans community.

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Speaker 1: People were really upset about it, angry with me, and

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Speaker 1: it was mortifying and I was so embarrassed. And later

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Speaker 1: on in the season, Laverne came back and we actually

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Speaker 1: sat down and had a long conversation about why that

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Speaker 1: was so inappropriate. And I remember the producer's Laverne, they

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Speaker 1: did not want me to do that. They were like, no,

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Speaker 1: don't talk about it. I said, no, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it. Tell me your impressions when you saw

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Speaker 1: Twitter exploding with all that venom towards me. I'm just

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Speaker 1: curious what your reaction was, Katie, Oh, it was. It's

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Speaker 1: such as that was an intense timing. You're taking me back.

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Speaker 1: First of all, I want to say that publicists producers

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Speaker 1: often say don't talk about something and that, and that

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Speaker 1: if you talk about an issue that controversy, that it

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Speaker 1: sort of perpetuates and so, but then when you don't

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Speaker 1: talk about it, then there we don't really get a

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Speaker 1: chance to have the educational moment. We don't get to

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Speaker 1: have the teachable moment is the way you you put

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Speaker 1: it at the time, and so I was so excited

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Speaker 1: that you were willing and open to talk about it.

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Speaker 1: And I think about the moments I've had, because we

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Speaker 1: think when you're a public figure, you're constantly putting yourself

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Speaker 1: out there, and you're going to quote unquote make mistakes

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Speaker 1: or get things wrong and upset people, and that's deeply,

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Speaker 1: deeply painful. And I felt that. I felt that even

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Speaker 1: though we weren't talking, I felt like how painful it

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Speaker 1: was for you um to be going through that and

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Speaker 1: to have the courage to be on television and to

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Speaker 1: say I made a mistake and what can we do

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Speaker 1: to rectify that? It's like so hard to do and

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Speaker 1: it's so painful. But I think that, and as I

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Speaker 1: saw the speech I made in London at the Attitude

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Speaker 1: Awards about that's for me feels like this model of

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Speaker 1: how we can go forward. It's going to be painful,

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Speaker 1: it's going to hurt, but if we can be accountable

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Speaker 1: and be teachable, then we can begin to model that

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Speaker 1: for other people. So when it all happened, though at

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Speaker 1: the time, what was exciting for me is that my

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Speaker 1: whole life. I've been watching UM TV talk to have

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Speaker 1: done presentations about TV talk shows that have since the

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Speaker 1: fifties and sixties have having conversations about trans people and reduced,

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Speaker 1: not even necessarily reducing us to surgeries and transition and

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Speaker 1: body parts. But what I said on the show is

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Speaker 1: when we focus on that, that becomes the only takeaway.

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Speaker 1: But because because it sensationalizes our identities, and having watched

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Speaker 1: those interviews over the year, I've never really seen anyone

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Speaker 1: on television pushed back and say maybe we should be

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Speaker 1: having a different conversation. So what was really exciting for

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Speaker 1: me is that Karmen and I got the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: UM to talk back and say maybe we should be

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Speaker 1: having a different conversation. And so I think when I

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Speaker 1: saw Twitter exploding, what was exciting for me is is

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Speaker 1: that because of social media and because of that moment,

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Speaker 1: Carmen and I were to have with you because you

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Speaker 1: we pre shot that so you didn't actually have to

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Speaker 1: air that, right. That's that's that's actually a little interesting

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Speaker 1: factoid about the whole situation. You know, my producer said,

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Speaker 1: do you want to take that out? Because you know

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Speaker 1: it made me look foolish and and and deservedly so.

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Speaker 1: And I said, no, keep it in because I think

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Speaker 1: it's a maybe a question that other people would have

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Speaker 1: asked or at least thought about. And I want people

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Speaker 1: to understand that being a trans person is much more

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Speaker 1: than your anatomy, you know, it has has very little

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Speaker 1: to do with it. And of course I've been so

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Speaker 1: educated since Laverne because of my documentary. But I also

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Speaker 1: think the conversation has changed. I feel, I mean, certainly

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Speaker 1: there's there people have there's still an educational thing that

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Speaker 1: still needs to happen around trans folks. Is someny misunderstandings

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Speaker 1: and misconceptions about it. But I feel like with journalists

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Speaker 1: now it's different. I feel it's really different. And so

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Speaker 1: that moment feels really pivotal. And I'm I'm so grateful

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Speaker 1: to you for that moment. I'm grateful that you didn't

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Speaker 1: edit it out. I'm grateful to the community who pushed back.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure it was really painful for you the

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Speaker 1: way in which some some folks in my community pushed back. Um,

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Speaker 1: but sometimes that's a necessary part of it, is I mean,

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Speaker 1: it is interesting when it comes to a social movement

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Speaker 1: sort of you have to bottle up and release that anger,

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Speaker 1: and I think it's part of the process, but I

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Speaker 1: so appreciate it. You mentioned that speech that you gave

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Speaker 1: it the Attitudes Inspiration Award last fall. We actually pulled

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Speaker 1: a clip because it was so nice and I was

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Speaker 1: so grateful of Earns. So let's listen for a second.

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Speaker 1: It important that we begin to look for models of

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Speaker 1: transformation and encourage that, and when the way we got

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Speaker 1: there with Katie is that I was willing to have

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Speaker 1: conversations with her with love and empathy. I do not

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Speaker 1: believe that we can get to that transformation by publicly

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Speaker 1: shaming people. And so for people who didn't watch these

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Speaker 1: shows and didn't follow this controversy as closely as some did,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the trans community, what do you think of

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Speaker 1: the key lessons that people who are not trans can

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Speaker 1: take away from that back and forth? For people who

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Speaker 1: aren't trans, I mean, I think, I mean, there's so

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Speaker 1: many things. Um part of part of it, I think

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Speaker 1: is the love and empathy piece that's so often every

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Speaker 1: what I've learned, especially over the last years, that not

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Speaker 1: everyone is coming from a place of good intentions. I

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Speaker 1: think with Katie, it was clear that you were you

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Speaker 1: have great, good intentions and it's got some things a

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Speaker 1: little off. And so then when the intentions are clear,

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Speaker 1: that we can begin to approach people with love and

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Speaker 1: empathy and find way ways to communicate our message better.

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Speaker 1: And I'm sure with that approach, I mean, can you

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Speaker 1: feel when you change hearts and minds? Do people say

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Speaker 1: to you, you know, thank you? I under I mean,

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Speaker 1: I I've been one of those people. Can you see

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Speaker 1: their hearts opening up and their minds changing with this

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Speaker 1: approach I have, I have, and and learning doesn't always

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Speaker 1: happen in the moment. It often it's incremental. But I think,

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Speaker 1: I mean, part of what I get to do as

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Speaker 1: an artist too, is that when you as an actor,

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Speaker 1: that's the work of being an actor is having empathy,

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Speaker 1: having empathy for a character, characters that I play. I

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Speaker 1: can never sort of approach a character with like I

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Speaker 1: don't like this person. I always have to find a way,

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Speaker 1: even if the character has done some reprehensible things, to

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Speaker 1: empathize with her um and find a way in So

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Speaker 1: that's the work of being an artist is to is

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Speaker 1: to have empathy and love for the characters I play

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Speaker 1: into hopefully convey that to audiences, and so that's the

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Speaker 1: work that I do as an artist, and so I

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Speaker 1: think that hopefully we'll translate into the work I do elsewhere.

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Speaker 1: Being an artist is what informs everything that I do.

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Speaker 1: And UM, they're the legacy of revolutionary artists. Progressive artists,

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Speaker 1: through their work and their activism, have proceeded that way,

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Speaker 1: and so I have a wonderful legacy to look to.

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Speaker 1: We've seen a similar journey of understanding happen around the

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Speaker 1: issue of marriage equality. UM. Understanding around trans issues is

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Speaker 1: probably a little bit behind where marriage quality is, but

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Speaker 1: that was maybe the fastest social change in America than

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Speaker 1: anybody can remember. Part of it had to do with

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Speaker 1: the change in calling it marriage equality as opposed to

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Speaker 1: gay marriage. How you talk about it, how you kind

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Speaker 1: of find the way into people who are maybe instinctually

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Speaker 1: not as understanding or haven't come across these people as

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Speaker 1: much as you know as much as some others. Um,

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Speaker 1: do you think there are things that the trans community

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Speaker 1: has done or still needs to do in order to

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Speaker 1: make further progress. There's a lot that we have to do.

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Speaker 1: And UM, there's fewer trans people than there are a

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Speaker 1: game lesbian people. UM. The way the way you've alluded

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Speaker 1: to change in the conversation from quote unquote gay marriage

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Speaker 1: to marriage equality. Having the conversation differently it's key, and

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of what I'm the work that I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to do is to shape the conversation in a

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Speaker 1: different way. But I mean, trans people are under attack

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Speaker 1: right now in this country. There's we connect there's just

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Speaker 1: the list of like really legislative things that are happening,

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Speaker 1: policy things that are happening around with ending you know,

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Speaker 1: guidelines for trans kids, um, anti trans bathroom bills introduced

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Speaker 1: in state legislatures all over the country, transfolk stums. There's

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Speaker 1: a fight for us to be able to serve openly

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Speaker 1: in the military right now. Um it really it goes

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Speaker 1: on and on and on. There's t seventeen with the

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Speaker 1: deadliest year on record for trans people in trans of

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Speaker 1: being murdered. Um our lives are on the line. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of it is about it's an intersectional issue.

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Speaker 1: So when we talk about trans stuff, and it gets

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Speaker 1: complicated because it's not just a gender thing, it's a

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Speaker 1: race thing, it's a class thing. It's an act this education,

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Speaker 1: it's an access to housing and jobs and so all

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Speaker 1: of those things sort of are diminishing our left dances.

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Speaker 1: Sexual assault. I was going to say, it's it's a

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Speaker 1: crying thing, and I want to talk about intersexuality. I

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Speaker 1: want to talk about sort of being under assault in

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Speaker 1: this Trump administration, in the current policy in a second.

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Speaker 1: But before we do that, Laverne, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: about your story, your life story, because it's so fascinating

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure was harroin when you were younger. You

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Speaker 1: were born in Mobile, Obama, you were raised by a

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Speaker 1: single mom. You never met your dad. Um, I met

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Speaker 1: my dad once. You did when you were how old? Um?

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Speaker 1: I think I was in third grade. I was in

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Speaker 1: third grade. Do you remember that? I do. I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to talk about it, really. I think there's some things,

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Speaker 1: the whole circumstances leading up to that that we're really

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Speaker 1: really painful. And I've worked through all that with my mom,

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Speaker 1: and so I don't respect to my mother and my family.

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Speaker 1: I can't talk about all I totally understand. But yes,

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Speaker 1: once I met my my logical product you had and

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Speaker 1: I you have an identical twin brother, yes, and just

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Speaker 1: just one brother, just one sibling. Yeah, And um, I'm

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Speaker 1: just curious what it was like growing up. I think

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Speaker 1: about you and Mobile, Alabama. I know you attempted suicide

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Speaker 1: when you were eleven years old. Paint a picture for us,

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Speaker 1: leave learn about what life was like. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have a lovely therapist now. She reminds me often that

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Speaker 1: it's both and so like. Yes, I was bullied. Um.

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Speaker 1: I was chased home from school practically every day, and

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Speaker 1: kids wanted to beat me up. I got beaten up

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Speaker 1: a lot. I was a very fast runner. I didn't

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Speaker 1: feel safe anywhere. But I was also a really creative kid.

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Speaker 1: I started dancing when I walked, and I begged my

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Speaker 1: mother to put me into dance classes, and finally, when

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Speaker 1: I was in third grade, she found a free program

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Speaker 1: where I could study dance. And that I believe that

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Speaker 1: dancing saved my life. I did. I have quit wrap

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Speaker 1: dance routines and like competed in talent shows all over

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Speaker 1: the Southeast, and there's still trophies in my house back

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Speaker 1: in Alabama. He said, I know you have said it

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Speaker 1: saved your life. Yeah. Being creative and I was a

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Speaker 1: good student. I've read constantly. We were walking distance from

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Speaker 1: the Mobile Public Library, so I was at the library

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Speaker 1: all the time reading I was, I was a total

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Speaker 1: nerd as smart as you are. He's probably smarter, really,

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Speaker 1: he's smarter. My brother is brilliant. He's really really smart. Um.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, if you haven't watched or Just

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Speaker 1: a New Black, you can meet LaVerne's brother. He's definitely

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Speaker 1: playing a character though. My brother is punk rock and

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Speaker 1: god he was. He defines find himself as a practicing him,

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Speaker 1: a sexual who is Negro goth, punk rock, um and

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Speaker 1: a free black man. He's um, He's a he's he's

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Speaker 1: a musician and an artist and his work is very

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Speaker 1: in Lamar is his name in lamar dot com. If

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Speaker 1: people care about his work. He really sort of hates.

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Speaker 1: He hates that he didn't Orange A New Black because

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Speaker 1: people It's so funny because if you google most famous,

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Speaker 1: well known trans people, there's like before. People always want

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Speaker 1: to see what trans people like before, and people have

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Speaker 1: a photo of my brother and then me said by side,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's kind of hilarious. But they have a

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Speaker 1: photo of him from or Just a New Black, and

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Speaker 1: he doesn't even look like that in real Lafe. Here

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Speaker 1: it's like eyeliner or any long hair. But that's the

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Speaker 1: character he played. That's the character he played. Yeah, my

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Speaker 1: character pre transition. But but when when did you When

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Speaker 1: did you start struggling with your gender identity? I you

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Speaker 1: do you remember from the very he didn't. It wasn't

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Speaker 1: a struggle for me. It was a struggle for everybody else.

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Speaker 1: I was all. I was always feminine, I was always

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Speaker 1: you know, I really thought that boy, there was no

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Speaker 1: difference between boys and girls, cause everyone was telling me

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Speaker 1: I was a boy, and I knew that I was

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Speaker 1: a girl, so I didn't think there were any differences.

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Speaker 1: And then there was a therapy moment in third grade.

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Speaker 1: I've talked about this little talked about this a lot.

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Speaker 1: My third grade teacher, Miss Ridgeway. I called my mother

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Speaker 1: on the phone and say, your son will end up

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Speaker 1: in New Orleans wearing your dress if you don't get

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Speaker 1: him to therapy right away. So I went to therapy,

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Speaker 1: and there was there was this whole sort of I

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Speaker 1: guess we would call it reparative therapy around my gender

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Speaker 1: expression at the time that was trying to trying to

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Speaker 1: fix me. And up until that time, I didn't think

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Speaker 1: that there was really a difference between boys and girls.

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Speaker 1: I knew that I was being bullied. I knew that

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Speaker 1: people were um. People called me all kinds of anti

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Speaker 1: gay slurs. They called me a girl, and I think,

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Speaker 1: I said, said, the interesting the irony of my life

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Speaker 1: is that before I transition, kids called me a girl,

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Speaker 1: and after I transition, people call me a man um

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Speaker 1: And so, my gosh, it was just it was intense,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like was everyone else's problem I and

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Speaker 1: then it became and it's something I internalized. I internalized

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Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of transphobia and I was like, I

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Speaker 1: can't be this. And it wasn't until I moved to

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Speaker 1: New York and met real trans people that I was

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Speaker 1: able to accept trans people and then accept myself. But

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Speaker 1: it was a problem for everybody else. Leante and Price

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Speaker 1: my idol. She's an offer singer and she when she

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Speaker 1: talks about race, she said, it's not it's not the

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Speaker 1: black people's problem, it's everybody else's problem. And that's really

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Speaker 1: how I see it with with the gender stuff. And

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Speaker 1: I think for for me, I had to sort of

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Speaker 1: get find access to medical care and find ways to

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Speaker 1: survive because it's hard. It's as smart as you think.

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Speaker 1: On my be I was working in a restaurant, a

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Speaker 1: drag queen restaurant before Orange the New Black sort of

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Speaker 1: became a sensation and or in New York City. And

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Speaker 1: I have a college degree and I was writing, you know,

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Speaker 1: articles for Huffing Compost, and I kind of a smart chick.

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Speaker 1: But a lot of people wouldn't have hired me. You know,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't really get a job. There's a lot of

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Speaker 1: people who wouldn't have hired me. It's brilliant, as I

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Speaker 1: might seem, um, And there's a lot there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of trans people out there who are brilliant, who can't

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Speaker 1: get jobs because they're trans. And you were inspired, at

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Speaker 1: least in part by a trans woman named Candice Kane.

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Speaker 1: For people in our audience who don't know who she is,

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Speaker 1: can you describe her and tell her tell us the

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Speaker 1: impact she had in your life. Candice Kane. I love

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Speaker 1: Candice Kane. Um. She's a New York City legend, and

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Speaker 1: she's a trans woman. And a lot of people got

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Speaker 1: to know horn Caitlyn Jenner's reality show I Am Kate,

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Speaker 1: But before that, in two thousand and seven, she became

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Speaker 1: the first openly transgender actress to have a recurring role

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Speaker 1: in a prime time TV show, and their show is

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Speaker 1: Dirty Sexy Money. That was eleven years ago, and that

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Speaker 1: moment made me believe that it was possible to be

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Speaker 1: openly trance and have a career as an actor. I've

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Speaker 1: been At this point, I had a degree in dance.

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Speaker 1: I studied acting and dance in college. I had done

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Speaker 1: a number of independent films and been and just been

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Speaker 1: going to acting class every week, you know, and turning

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Speaker 1: and turned to student Susan Batson studio in New York City,

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Speaker 1: and I mopped the floors and answered the phone, so

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Speaker 1: I can get acting classes for free. Thank you, Susan.

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Speaker 1: It's had a little scholarship. And so it was being

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Speaker 1: an actress something I've been. I committed myself to, you know,

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Speaker 1: just and just doing the grind in New York, doing

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Speaker 1: the off railway theater or student films or whatever I

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Speaker 1: could do, just to work. And when I saw that

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Speaker 1: moment from Candice, I was like, this is the moment,

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Speaker 1: and that I sent out postcards. I love this story.

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Speaker 1: By the way, was this sending out postcards from New

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Speaker 1: York or from mobile? It was I was in New York, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So it's already in New York. I went to college

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Speaker 1: in New York and Um sent out postcards to agents

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Speaker 1: and casting director. It's like five and I was like,

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Speaker 1: Laverne Cox is the answered all your transender acting? Because

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Speaker 1: I mean there was sort of a niche for being

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Speaker 1: trans and being an actor. Not a lot of great

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Speaker 1: parts at the time, but there were there was something

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Speaker 1: mostly sex workers and crying victims. Um. It's not funny,

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Speaker 1: but it kind of is. UM. And then the manager

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Speaker 1: that I have now to this day, pa Heloppo, is

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Speaker 1: one of the four meetings I got from that those

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Speaker 1: five postcards. That's amazing. I mean, that's a real lesson,

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Speaker 1: by the way, an ingenuity and persistence and just putting

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Speaker 1: yourself out there that you sent all these postcards out

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Speaker 1: and you got four meetings from the meetings. I had

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Speaker 1: a commercial agent for a minute that didn't work out,

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Speaker 1: but then I got a legit acting agent. Um. Pa

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Speaker 1: Heloppo is my agent for many years now. He's my manager,

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Speaker 1: and he saw something in me. And for there were

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Speaker 1: many years I didn't work at all. Over the eleven

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Speaker 1: years that we've been together. That would be like, my guys,

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Speaker 1: why had he not dropped me? You know? If you

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Speaker 1: have an agent, you have a client and they're not working.

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Speaker 1: But he just saw something and then he stuck with

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Speaker 1: me and it's kind of worked out well. It certainly has.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you did a number of appearances on Lawn Order,

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Speaker 1: I know, and then you did some reality shows, some

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Speaker 1: independent films. You produced a documentary, produced a couple of

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Speaker 1: documentary and one one in particular about the lives of

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Speaker 1: seven trans children. I've seven trans youth um the time

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Speaker 1: they were between the ages of twelve and twenty four.

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Speaker 1: I'm so proud of all of them right now. Um

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Speaker 1: Zoe Luna just had her HBO show about her KISA.

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Speaker 1: She's she was twelve when we interviewed her. Shane hen

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Speaker 1: Niece has been in and a Kinneth cole ad and

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Speaker 1: he got a full scholarship to Columbia at grad school

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Speaker 1: after the Tea World. I'm just oh, I can't anyways,

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Speaker 1: all of them are really fantastic and I'm so proud

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Speaker 1: of all of them. Think I mean again, I know,

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Speaker 1: I know, I'm kind of like totally fan girling on

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Speaker 1: poor Laverne, but think about what you were able to

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Speaker 1: do for these young people by helping them adjust, by

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Speaker 1: giving them attention and by kind of launching their careers.

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Speaker 1: I think what we I try not to be too

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Speaker 1: arrogant about what I did. I think what we were

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Speaker 1: able to do with Laverne Costumes and the tea where

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Speaker 1: and you can watch the documentary on on YouTube or

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Speaker 1: on Logo TV, is that we gave them a platform

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Speaker 1: and tell their stories. And then UM, with that, what

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Speaker 1: were they able to do on top of that? What

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Speaker 1: I learned, and I had this conversation with every one

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Speaker 1: of them, that this is an opportunity for you to

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Speaker 1: have a platform. Now it's time to hustle. And what

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Speaker 1: I learned from having done reality TV when I did

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Speaker 1: a show called I Want to Work for Ditty in

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Speaker 1: two thousand and eight, and that was UM that's directly

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Speaker 1: because of Candice Cane. That was the next year because

429
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:17,520
Speaker 1: I sort of put myself out there in a new way.

430
00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:22,200
Speaker 1: I learned that reality television was a platform. But then

431
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,280
Speaker 1: now it was time for me to hustle and to

432
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: um really capitalize on that. And so that's what I've

433
00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:30,520
Speaker 1: I've tried to do in a way that's respectful to

434
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,439
Speaker 1: myself and to the art and what I want to do. UM.

435
00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,120
Speaker 1: But that was what I said to the young people,

436
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:37,320
Speaker 1: So then it was on them. But I mean, let's

437
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 1: be honest, giving them a platform change their worlds. I hope, so,

438
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,760
Speaker 1: I hope, so I will. Shane has told me that

439
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 1: it has, and a few of the young people have

440
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: told me that it has been transformative for them, So

441
00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: that that makes me happy. Let's take a quick break.

442
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:59,280
Speaker 1: We'll be back with more of our fascinating conversation with

443
00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:08,399
Speaker 1: this week's wonder Woman, Laverne Cox. And now back to

444
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: our conversation with Laverne Cox. Your big break when most

445
00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: people in this country first clapped eyes on Laverne Cox

446
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:19,879
Speaker 1: was when you got the role on Orange, just the

447
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: New Black. How did that come about and how has

448
00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,000
Speaker 1: that changed your life? It's funny because right before I

449
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,760
Speaker 1: booked Orange, I was thinking maybe I was done acting.

450
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,040
Speaker 1: Maybe I'd been a number of independent films that've done

451
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,320
Speaker 1: some TV, and I's thinking maybe I was done and

452
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,120
Speaker 1: hadn't booked anything for going on a year. We're still

453
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: working in the restaurant. I still working at Lucky Change

454
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: the restaurant every week. And then I got the audition

455
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: and I did two scenes, one from the pilot episode

456
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,359
Speaker 1: of orange and one from the episode three, the famous

457
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: duct tape flip flops um seen from season one. In fact,

458
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,920
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned that because we have a clip

459
00:22:54,000 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: from that since you did the perfected with this. All right,

460
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:04,119
Speaker 1: well let's listen to you. We'll just remind people I

461
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 1: made my own commer. Don't Carrious last their team due

462
00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,480
Speaker 1: me italics are very in the season. I remember that

463
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: scene so well, Laverne, when you heard about this role,

464
00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 1: were you just thinking, oh God, this is going to

465
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,159
Speaker 1: be so fantastic? Were you trufidacious? You know. I was

466
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 1: at an event with my manager Paul, and he said,

467
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: I have an audition for you. It's set in a

468
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: women's prison. You're a hairdresser and women's for women's prison.

469
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: I was like, that sounds it sounded really intriguing. He

470
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: said it was a web series and this is so

471
00:23:38,920 --> 00:23:42,359
Speaker 1: there were no streaming television shows, there were web series.

472
00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 1: So I was just like, okay, a web series. Cool.

473
00:23:45,720 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: And then I got the pilot scripts and it was

474
00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:49,800
Speaker 1: brilliant and um Gingi Cohen. I was a huge fan

475
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: of Weeds, like huge and I love her by the way,

476
00:23:52,520 --> 00:23:56,840
Speaker 1: I love her too, A creator and exactly and then I,

477
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 1: um did the audition, got the part. I was screaming.

478
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: I was on this treat and I started screaming, and

479
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:03,920
Speaker 1: I was hopeful that people might watch it. But I

480
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,399
Speaker 1: was just so excited to be working. I was I

481
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 1: dedicated my life to being an actor, and it's a

482
00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: really hard thing to do, to be an artist, and

483
00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:13,760
Speaker 1: so I was just happy to have a job. And

484
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,440
Speaker 1: then it turned into this thing where like episode three

485
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,159
Speaker 1: was my character's backstory and Jodie Foster was directing, and

486
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: that was a dream come true. And um, did you

487
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: have a moment when you thought, Wow, this is really clicking,

488
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: this is this is something special season one? It was

489
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: just what I love about Season one of our show

490
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: is that it was so about the work, and I

491
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 1: was just so excited to do the work to really

492
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,159
Speaker 1: that I've been training for all these years. And then

493
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 1: there was a moment I think episode and it's the

494
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: rat battle scene, episode six or so of season one,

495
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: and I looked around and it was room full of

496
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 1: women of all ages and backgrounds and sexual orientations and

497
00:24:50,200 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 1: and I'm in the middle there, and I just was like,

498
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: this is the coolest thing I've ever seen in my life.

499
00:24:55,240 --> 00:24:57,160
Speaker 1: I don't know if anybody's gonna wash it or care,

500
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: but this is awesome and I did honestly think anybody

501
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:02,879
Speaker 1: would watch it. I knew it was good and special,

502
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: but I just had never seen anything like it, and

503
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: so I was like, where does this fit in the marketplace?

504
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:09,440
Speaker 1: You know? And then it's on Netflix. I was just

505
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,760
Speaker 1: my my dream really was. I was like, I hope

506
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,640
Speaker 1: casting directors watch it and see that I can act,

507
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: and maybe I'll get another job. That was my real

508
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 1: People didn't think of Netflix is the behe meth that

509
00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: it's become, spending seven billion dollars a year on content

510
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: and all the rest. But let me ask you, since

511
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,359
Speaker 1: you first appeared and broke through on that show, how

512
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: do you think opportunities for transactors have changed? Gosh, it's

513
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 1: a it's a mixed bag. When I talked to my

514
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: transplants who are actors, there are more roles than there

515
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 1: used to be in the roles are different. Um. I'm

516
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,760
Speaker 1: so excited about Ryan Murphy's news show Post is coming

517
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 1: out of this summer. There's six transgender series regular unlesshow

518
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,040
Speaker 1: all trans women of color and they're so talented. Um,

519
00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 1: and what is it about. It's about the ballroom community

520
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,280
Speaker 1: in New York City in the nineteen eighties, like that

521
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: movie Paris Is Burning if you saw that, it's about

522
00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: these balls that are sort of competitions where people vogue

523
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: and people sort of have different categories like realness and faith,

524
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: et cetera. So it's the sort of drag trans lgbt

525
00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: Q balls of color that Madonna's vote comes out of

526
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 1: that community. And it's really when um our current president

527
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 1: was building all these huge buildings and so that you know,

528
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,879
Speaker 1: New York was changing a lot in the late eighties

529
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,000
Speaker 1: as well, So that that's the backdrop of the of

530
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 1: the of pose which is so excited about it. So

531
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: that's exciting for for people in the trans community. But

532
00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: how has it been a mixed bag? Well, there's still

533
00:26:34,320 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: a lot of casting ritchers aren't calling us stand for

534
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:38,159
Speaker 1: roles that are not trans. Well that's the thing, right,

535
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: is the real victory going to be when you don't

536
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: have to play a trans person but you get to

537
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: play a woman. I just get to play characters and

538
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 1: it doesn't and the gender identity doesn't matter. I think

539
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: that is the victory. More opportunities and I think but

540
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: there's so many trans stories that need to be told

541
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:54,719
Speaker 1: as well, and so more trans folks directing and writing

542
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,040
Speaker 1: and working behind the scenes is actually really crucial to

543
00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: to pose his credit. There's two to right trans writers,

544
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:02,400
Speaker 1: and there's some trans people directing and working on the crew.

545
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 1: Um of a show I did and CBS called Doubt,

546
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: we had a trans writer. And I have a show

547
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: um in development at ABC now called Spirited, Um that

548
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 1: is not a trans character, and um that's the lead

549
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 1: of So hopefully that that pilot will be in the pipeline.

550
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,480
Speaker 1: It's but you feel like they're You feel like you

551
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:23,639
Speaker 1: need to have both both stories of trans people but

552
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 1: also trans people being cast without regard to their gender.

553
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:29,920
Speaker 1: Because if you're right for the part, it shouldn't matter.

554
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: I've always said, if it doesn't involve minstrual cycles or pregnancy,

555
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 1: I should be able to play it. And then the

556
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 1: question is does the character become trans when I play

557
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: the character. I'm as a black actress, whenever I play

558
00:27:40,280 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: a character, the character becomes black. And do it just

559
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: the character become trans when I play her, even if

560
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 1: it's not written that way. UM, So that's an interesting

561
00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,639
Speaker 1: question that will so that we'll see. Well to that point,

562
00:27:50,880 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: you have cis gendered men, that is, people who were

563
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 1: born as men playing a signed mail at birth, assigned

564
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: mail at birth and identify as male. Thank you for

565
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 1: them being cast as trans women. Yes, I e. Jeffrey

566
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,640
Speaker 1: Tambor on Transparent, although you know he made Jared Letto,

567
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: I E Eddie Redmain. Who are you know? UM? I

568
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: was about to say, all lovely people, but now how

569
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 1: do you feel about that? Though you know, um, there

570
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: is certainly a push now in UM, in the trans

571
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:24,200
Speaker 1: community and beyond to cast trans people to play trans characters.

572
00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: Transmpone jobs I said earlier than our employment rate is

573
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: about four times in national average UM. And Jen Richard's

574
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:35,879
Speaker 1: a brilliant writer actress. She argues that when sphysically, when

575
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: cis gender men, non transgender men are cast to play

576
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 1: transferred to women at least to violence against us because

577
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 1: it sends the message that, she contends, that trans women

578
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: are really men. So Jared Letto beautifully plays this trans

579
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 1: character in Dallas Bias Club and then arrives at the

580
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 1: Oscars and Golden Globes with a beard. And so folks

581
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: men who find themselves attracted to trans women then see

582
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,719
Speaker 1: this guy with a beard amidst in this message, their

583
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: trans women are really not women at all, but men,

584
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,280
Speaker 1: and so she contends that that leads to balance against

585
00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: So I think the other piece of that is that

586
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 1: men who are attracted to trans women need to deal

587
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,640
Speaker 1: with their internalized homaphobia and transphobia. What's been so exciting

588
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 1: for me as a transactress playing a transparacter and Orange

589
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: a New Black is that people have audience members have

590
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: not just empathized with the character that I played, but

591
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 1: they find themselves empathizing with the actors who plays her,

592
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 1: and so there's been so much I think it's inarguable

593
00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: that there's been so much change because of that part

594
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: that I got to play, and people connecting with this

595
00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: character and then connecting with the actress on a human level. Well,

596
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,840
Speaker 1: think how much how many people have been educated by Sophia, right,

597
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it broke through this whole notion of gender

598
00:29:41,960 --> 00:29:45,040
Speaker 1: identity and it just got right to the heart of

599
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: the person, which can I think is the most persuasive

600
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: tool possible. Right, you have to be able to see

601
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 1: people as human beings, and I think, according to a

602
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: study from Glad of Folks, in the United States do

603
00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:00,080
Speaker 1: not know someone trans and so what what we you

604
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 1: and the media is how folks get to know trans

605
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 1: folks exactly. It's crucial. It's it's life saving and or

606
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: or life threatening if the representation in the media does

607
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,719
Speaker 1: not accurately and multidimensionally depict who trans people really are.

608
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 1: One of the people I featured in my documentary was

609
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: Gavin Graham. You can't see right now, but Laverne just

610
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: kind of made a little prayer sign and held it

611
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,760
Speaker 1: up to her face because Gavin is an extraordinary person.

612
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 1: How did you first get to know Gavin? I, you know,

613
00:30:31,920 --> 00:30:35,920
Speaker 1: I became aware of his case in Gosh, and it

614
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: would have been, um, we should say, by the way, background,

615
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,640
Speaker 1: by the way, guess Gavin came out as transgender in

616
00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 1: high school in Virginia. His county's school board said that

617
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: he couldn't use the boys restroom. So apologies for the interruption,

618
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: but now that's fine. Um, well, initially he was allowed,

619
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 1: and then parents found out and said we can't do this,

620
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: and everything was fine. Gavin was going to the boys room,

621
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: the kids didn't have any there was no issue. And

622
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: then the school board finds out and sayest know what,

623
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: this can't happen, and they had a big hearing. By

624
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: the way, and just just before we talk a little

625
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 1: more about Gavin, we have a clip from what I

626
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 1: thought was one of the most moving moments of my

627
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 1: documentary is when, by the way, we didn't film it.

628
00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 1: It was when Gavin spoke before the school board and

629
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,320
Speaker 1: there was a whole group of people, and he was

630
00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and he was so composed and so extraordinary.

631
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: Let's listen to what he said. I've been aware of

632
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:32,200
Speaker 1: who I was since I was a very young kid,

633
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: and it's taken me a very long time to be

634
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,240
Speaker 1: able to be myself and be okay with that. The

635
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: person I am now being able to have all of

636
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 1: my rights in full is such a massive dynamic difference

637
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,160
Speaker 1: from the person I was just last summer. I would

638
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 1: like to say two of that. If the evidence said

639
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: that me using the boy's room would be catastrophic, I

640
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: would not be advocating for myself, regardless of my personal

641
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,160
Speaker 1: emotions over this issue. I look only at the facts

642
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:04,280
Speaker 1: as one should in an issue that for poor separation

643
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: of church and state and feelings of state. That clip

644
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 1: makes me cry every time I hear at Laverne and

645
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: so you heard about Gavin's situation. Did you reach out

646
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: to him? I did, Actually, I really my friend Chaise Strangia,

647
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,360
Speaker 1: who were the a c LU de Laurier. The a

648
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: c l U is handling Gavin's case, and it was

649
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: a major it was gonna be a major decision, or

650
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: it was it would have been the first time the

651
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: Supreme Court would have heard an issue about transgender rights.

652
00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: And so I sent him a video message and then

653
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: we arranged to meet to meet Gavin. It was like

654
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: a week after the Grammys a year ago, I remember,

655
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,560
Speaker 1: and I just I was moved by everything I had

656
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: read about him and the videos I've seen about him,

657
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:42,320
Speaker 1: and then he's when I met him. He's so smart

658
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: and so calm and composed. It's amazing. I freak out.

659
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: I mean, I just when I all think it's attention

660
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,000
Speaker 1: is on me and I get such anxiety, and he

661
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 1: seems so calm and his mom um. It's amazing. I

662
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:58,920
Speaker 1: think it's over fifty percent of trans kids when they

663
00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 1: have families, art their lives are completely different in terms

664
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 1: of positive outcomes for them being who they are. Because

665
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 1: we should just mention how high the suicide rate is

666
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: among trans children and trans youth. Yeah, it's over over

667
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: forty one of trans people have attempted suicide, and I

668
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: think it's of trans youth have a have attempted suicide,

669
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,600
Speaker 1: and so it's I think sometimes people want to sort

670
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 1: of suggest that we're mentally ill. But if you live

671
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: in a culture that tells you constantly and sends messages

672
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: to you constantly that you are mentally ill, that you

673
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,160
Speaker 1: are a deviant, that you shouldn't exist, and that every

674
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: message you're receiving constantly from everyone around you and from

675
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 1: the media is that you shouldn't exist and that you

676
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 1: are pariah, it is really hard to love yourself. It

677
00:33:47,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: is really hard to think that you have a right

678
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: to exist. And that's what I want. That's what I

679
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,479
Speaker 1: want trans kids to know that you have a right

680
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: to exist and that you're anointed, that you are beautiful,

681
00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 1: and that you're here for a reason, and that you

682
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: have to find a to survive um so you can

683
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,400
Speaker 1: fulfill that reason for being here. The Supreme Court decided

684
00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 1: not to hear Gavin's kid They decided not to hear

685
00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:11,680
Speaker 1: Gavin's kids because the current administration. The Justice Department rescinded

686
00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: the Obama you're a guideline around how transgender kids should

687
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: be treated in school. And and so when the Justice

688
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: Department rescinded those guidelines, then there was no case. There

689
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 1: was no case. What did those guidelines say the guys?

690
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: So basically a lot of people thought they were about bathrooms, right,

691
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: So they did say that, you know, trans kit should

692
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 1: be able to use the bathroom that's consistent with their

693
00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:33,800
Speaker 1: gender identity. But it also talked about prefer name, it

694
00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 1: talked about how other kids should treat them in school.

695
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: So it was a whole host of guidelines. It was

696
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 1: really abou making making sure that trans kids were safe

697
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 1: in schools and that they were treated in a way

698
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 1: that was respectful to them so they could learn. Education

699
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: is the reason I'm sitting here, and people should have

700
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: safe schools. And that was just the first, I think

701
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: thing that the Trump administration did that has started to

702
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 1: erode the progress that had heretofore been made before was selected. Yeah,

703
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: not just for trans people, but for across the board

704
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,360
Speaker 1: the Justice Department. Even though people have to remember that

705
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:09,759
Speaker 1: the current administration has not been very successful legislatively, but

706
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 1: in terms of the Justice Department. They have been very

707
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:16,359
Speaker 1: successful rolling back mandatory minimum so many um progressive things

708
00:35:16,400 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 1: that the Obama administration um did, so we got to

709
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,920
Speaker 1: continue to resist what. In fact, back in July, President

710
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,160
Speaker 1: Trump tweeted the transgender individuals will not be allowed to

711
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: serve in the US military. Has that been implemented? So? Um,

712
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: Remember that was so crazy because ostensibly President Trump had

713
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:39,280
Speaker 1: cleared this with his military leaders, but then they said

714
00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: he never talked to them, ostensibly meaning he didn't right

715
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: and then suddenly and then that changed, right. So after

716
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: after the tweet, the guest Department of Defense got some

717
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: policy together to basically try to ban on transiple And now,

718
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 1: mind you, trans people have just been able to serve openly, barely,

719
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 1: and it was something that like Obama, but luckily at

720
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,680
Speaker 1: this point to judges have said that this is unconstitutional

721
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 1: and there's no reason to ban trans people. I think

722
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,480
Speaker 1: it's probably gonna end up at the Supreme Court. So

723
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: that meantime, what's happening to transgender people who are currently

724
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: serving in the military. It's my from my understanding, they

725
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: should be treated with kindness and respect. But again, it

726
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: sends a message when the leader of the Free world.

727
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 1: I feel that I use that term loosely. Now, UM,

728
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 1: let the records show there are some more quotes tackling

729
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,680
Speaker 1: UM says that you shouldn't have a right to serve

730
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 1: your country. And what other things have happened in the

731
00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 1: last year Laverne that have really kind of put trans

732
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 1: people in the crosshairs? UM. I think over twenty states

733
00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,440
Speaker 1: have passed about fifty pieces of legislation that basically criminalized

734
00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,759
Speaker 1: trans people using the bathroom that is consistent with their

735
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: gender agentity. Fifty pieces of legislation. A number of those

736
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,000
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation have been struck down, notably in Texas,

737
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,239
Speaker 1: but a lot of people think that um HB too.

738
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: In Carolina, a lot of people thought that that was repealed.

739
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 1: It actually wasn't. They basically made a new bill that

740
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 1: basically had institute the same kind of discrimination against trans

741
00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: people because they wanted to basically get their corporate folks back,

742
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:15,520
Speaker 1: And so a lot of people think that that's settled.

743
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 1: In North Carolina, it actually isn't. The a c l

744
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 1: U and other organizations are still I think it's lamb

745
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 1: I Legal are still suing the state of North Carolina

746
00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: because they're trying to criminalize trans people going to the

747
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 1: bath This has had a profound impact on politics. The

748
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: governor of North Carolina who signed the infamous bathroom band

749
00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: like with Anymore, Yeah, he lost his race. I think

750
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:41,960
Speaker 1: he's still around, but he's no longer governor exactly um

751
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: largely as a result of the backlash on this issue.

752
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: And last year we saw Danica Rome I think that's

753
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:51,719
Speaker 1: how you pronounced her name in Virginia be the first

754
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,880
Speaker 1: openly trans person elected and seated in the US State House.

755
00:37:56,400 --> 00:38:01,399
Speaker 1: And Andrea Jenkins was the first only transgender black woman

756
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 1: to be elected shows a Life to the Minneapolis City

757
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 1: Council and met Andrew. I've met Andrew. We did a

758
00:38:08,640 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 1: panel when I was a mini in Minnesota, like a

759
00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: couple of years ago. And now Chelsea Manning has filed

760
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: to run for Senate in the state of Maryland, and

761
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:18,840
Speaker 1: more of our controversial character having nothing to do with

762
00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: first I mean, I think it says a lot that

763
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: we've seen this happen and that that must be a

764
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: positive in a year that's been full of a lot

765
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: of negatives. I think what has happened because of the

766
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:32,440
Speaker 1: current administration is that a lot of folks UM, various

767
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: backgrounds are choosing to run for office and are winning.

768
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: And that I think if if there's anything positive that

769
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 1: has come out of UM this current administration, is that

770
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,239
Speaker 1: folks have woken up. And I think a lot of

771
00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,839
Speaker 1: folks got complacent under my beloved President Obama. I love him,

772
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:52,120
Speaker 1: we miss you, we missed you, Obama's UM. I think

773
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 1: a lot of those got very complacent and didn't realize

774
00:38:55,719 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 1: that UM a lot of basic civil liberties were at stake.

775
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,799
Speaker 1: And I think that it's very clear now. The last

776
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,240
Speaker 1: time I checked, and I'm sure the numbers higher, eleven

777
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: thousand women were running for office. Uh. And I think

778
00:39:08,040 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 1: that brings us to sort of the me too movement.

779
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,280
Speaker 1: And I'm curious what you think of this movement, Laverne.

780
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 1: If you believe it is intersectional enough, that is so

781
00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:23,839
Speaker 1: it's really talking about race, it's talking about gender, it's

782
00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: talking about gender identity, uh, not just white women in

783
00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: Hollywood and or beyond even and and that if you

784
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,560
Speaker 1: think it's expansive enough, So what are your thoughts. I

785
00:39:35,640 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: think we can always be more intersectional, we can always

786
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: um include more in color. Really, yeah, I mean intersectionality

787
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:47,239
Speaker 1: really for people I don't just experience the world as

788
00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: a trans woman. I experience the world as a black

789
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,279
Speaker 1: person and as and I have multiple identities and and

790
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: having a social movements. It's funny, as I've been doing

791
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 1: a lot of rereading of Bell Hooks and a lot

792
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: of black feminists from you know, the seventies and eighties,

793
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,720
Speaker 1: and and really for over thirty years that um, women

794
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:08,359
Speaker 1: of color, queer women have been critiquing, um a lot

795
00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 1: of second way feminism that you know, thirty years ago,

796
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: black feminists were like, we need to expand this idea

797
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 1: of womanhood and we cannot um use biological essentialism to

798
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,760
Speaker 1: have conversations about women. That we have to be inclusive.

799
00:40:21,800 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: So that conversation has been happening for a really long time.

800
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: So I never doubted, I mean, I don't think anyone

801
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,799
Speaker 1: can hear her and and doubt how well informed well

802
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: read you are on these issues. I mean it's unbelievable

803
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,840
Speaker 1: but any but But so that conversation has been happening

804
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 1: for a really long time, and I mean we just

805
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 1: I think what we have to look at. I mean

806
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 1: with Weinstein, for example, I remember all these actresses came

807
00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 1: out and said, you know that he had, you know,

808
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:50,200
Speaker 1: assaulted him and done the things that he's accused of doing.

809
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 1: First person he challenged was Lupitte Niango, a black woman.

810
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,000
Speaker 1: When he all these other women, he didn't say anything,

811
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:58,880
Speaker 1: he didn't say that I didn't do it, he'd But

812
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,479
Speaker 1: the first person challenge it was was Lapie and the Ongo.

813
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 1: And I think there this can't be a coincidence. Her

814
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: blackness can't be a coincidence. I noticed when some trans

815
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:09,719
Speaker 1: women have come forward and said that they have been

816
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: sexually assaulted, there's been a different tenor in terms of

817
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: the ways in which they've been believed as opposed to

818
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 1: other women who are not trans. It's it's all very

819
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: very tricky because there's a lot of there's a lot

820
00:41:23,280 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: of trauma. I think when we're talking about sexual assault

821
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:29,279
Speaker 1: and sexual harassment, I think it's really really important to

822
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:32,319
Speaker 1: talk about the healing that has to happen if you've

823
00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: been a victim or survivor, and it's one of I

824
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: think the worst things that can happen to someone, if

825
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 1: not the worst, UM, and so all the healing that

826
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:45,880
Speaker 1: has to happen, and UM, what's exciting is that. UM.

827
00:41:46,080 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I've been rereading you know, UM, some of

828
00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:50,360
Speaker 1: my belthooks and talking back, she says, one of the

829
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: most useful tools that women have, and it's not just

830
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: women who've been victims of sexual assault and harassment, is

831
00:41:58,239 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: our voice to be able to speak up and to

832
00:41:59,719 --> 00:42:03,719
Speaker 1: speak out. And so it's amazing that that I think

833
00:42:03,760 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 1: we were just the country was just ready for that.

834
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,000
Speaker 1: But UM, I think we still need to. UM. And

835
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,480
Speaker 1: it's not just because I and I. It's not just

836
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:14,279
Speaker 1: about including trans women, including women of color, including folks

837
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 1: with disabilities or folks are incarcerated, including all these folks,

838
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,319
Speaker 1: But it's like, what does it mean to have these

839
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:23,680
Speaker 1: folks in leadership positions and decision making roles. I'm finding myself, UM,

840
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 1: I'm very blessed that be in the position I'm in,

841
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: but I'm trying to be critical of it, and I'm

842
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: trying to really think about all the folks out there

843
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 1: who don't have the platform I have, and what do

844
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 1: they need and what would they want me to say

845
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: when I'm in in these positions, And so much of

846
00:42:39,360 --> 00:42:44,720
Speaker 1: it is about having not just the tokenized Hollywood trans

847
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: woman lover and cox in the in positions. UM, and

848
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: it's seats with seats at the table. But having diverse

849
00:42:51,320 --> 00:42:53,799
Speaker 1: and other folks who don't have the saying privileges I have, well,

850
00:42:53,840 --> 00:42:55,880
Speaker 1: it seems to me that you know, we have to

851
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,280
Speaker 1: start moving from outrage to policy changes and putting systems

852
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: in place and all. So obviously attitudes sometimes I think

853
00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: laws precede attitudes. If you look at the civil rights movement, right,

854
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 1: I mean, it wasn't a popular thing to enact certain

855
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: pieces of legislation, but it was the right thing, and

856
00:43:13,880 --> 00:43:17,440
Speaker 1: then attitudes followed and somewhat. I mean, I think if

857
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 1: you look at that, that's a really good example that

858
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: we had the vote Civil Rights Act, in the Voting

859
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: Rights Act um that were past and then black folks

860
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 1: that did not end racism in America. Ironically, you know,

861
00:43:28,040 --> 00:43:33,560
Speaker 1: black folks are incarcerated crazy rates, profile by police, et cetera.

862
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: That's for sure. But I think if sometimes if if

863
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: leaders wait for public uh sentiment to be on their side,

864
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: that sometimes they'd be waiting for a very long time

865
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: to at least take the first step of enacting legislation.

866
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: That's that is hopefully eventually one day fingers crossed going

867
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,759
Speaker 1: to change hearts and minds. But where should we go

868
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: from here. Um, I think it's been so extraordinary to

869
00:43:56,960 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 1: see people being able to express their them elves, use

870
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,920
Speaker 1: their voices, exhibit their outrage. But at some point do

871
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 1: we need to then take it to the next step.

872
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 1: And in Hollywood, by the way, there is this initiative

873
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: called times Up um that may be a part of

874
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 1: moving forward on these issues. But but but what are

875
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:19,320
Speaker 1: they going to do other than raise money for a

876
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: legal defense fund for you know, I mean and and

877
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 1: not just Hollywood. But how can policies and change and

878
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: how can we put systems in place so that it

879
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 1: is better for that woman who's working on an assembly

880
00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: line at a factory in Iowa. That's part of it.

881
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: Rosa Clemente, who's been doing a lot of work around

882
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, we have to remember their Puerto Ricans, Um.

883
00:44:40,320 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 1: The island is still mostly without power and without clean

884
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 1: drinking water. She reminded me when we met that that

885
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: protests are important, but then we have to do the

886
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:52,719
Speaker 1: organizing after the protests, and so the organizing is about

887
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,920
Speaker 1: policy and hopefully systemic shifts. Um. So I was at

888
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 1: times that meeting this past week, and and so the

889
00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,240
Speaker 1: Legal Defense Fund, it's wanted of things at times episduring.

890
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 1: There's other things, other work too. That's that's that's on

891
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 1: the horizon that that you'll find out more about later.

892
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,480
Speaker 1: That it's about those policy shifts, and I think really

893
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: it's how do we make workplaces safe for everyone? Anti

894
00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 1: sexual harassment policies have existed in of UM organizations for

895
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:23,839
Speaker 1: a very long time, but so much of that it's

896
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,160
Speaker 1: about not getting sued, but it doesn't change the culture

897
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 1: in those organizations. So we have to be able to

898
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 1: change the culture and then who's in power. A lot

899
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,200
Speaker 1: of folks think that it's about having diverse leaderships, that

900
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 1: we have more women and leadership positions, and more people

901
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 1: of color and just more diversity and so so so,

902
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 1: and hopefully that can begin to change the culture so

903
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: that it's not okay to interrupt women and meetings and

904
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: so it's not okay. What is no, that's man's plain. Well.

905
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:54,600
Speaker 1: I'm doing this whole thing for National Geographic and one

906
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: of my hours is on gender and equality in Hollywood

907
00:45:56,920 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: and Silicon Valley and beyond. And there's something called he peating,

908
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,800
Speaker 1: and that means if you're at a meeting and a

909
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 1: woman has this suggestion and everybody is like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

910
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:08,000
Speaker 1: it kind of blows her off. Then the man says it,

911
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: and so there's this hepeating. There's this thing called he

912
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:13,839
Speaker 1: peating that men do where a woman makes a point

913
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 1: and everyone ignores her and then the guy thank you

914
00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: for that. It's the same thing and thank you for

915
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:23,000
Speaker 1: the illustration. But anyway, but but I do think that

916
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: those kinds of cultural shifts instead, so that not that

917
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:28,879
Speaker 1: we're in these things are important. I think sometimes people

918
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,640
Speaker 1: think that liberals get sort of you know, want to

919
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 1: police language and and want to say you can and

920
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 1: can't say. This is not about that, It's about how

921
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: do we begin to change the culture. Because those cultures

922
00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: influence policies and influence the ways in which people are

923
00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 1: treated and they feel safe or not, and the workplates

924
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,240
Speaker 1: are on the street, or there may be sexual harassment policies,

925
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 1: but I don't think they've been taken seriously. I think

926
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 1: that when they have like diversity training or sexual harassment awareness,

927
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:57,400
Speaker 1: that most people just roll their eyes. And now I

928
00:46:57,520 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 1: think those times have changed. But do you think that

929
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,480
Speaker 1: more men should be invited into the conversation, Because I

930
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:05,759
Speaker 1: think right now, at this juncture, I think there are

931
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 1: a lot of men who are so fearful, and I

932
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:10,840
Speaker 1: think that some of them believe like we need to

933
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 1: spend this time listening, but at some point we need

934
00:47:14,040 --> 00:47:17,760
Speaker 1: men to join forces with women and not just listen.

935
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: So do you feel like they've been shut out of

936
00:47:19,560 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: the conversation too much? I think we have to be

937
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:27,239
Speaker 1: really careful not to foreground men's voices. I think we're

938
00:47:27,239 --> 00:47:29,800
Speaker 1: talking about white sister gender men's voices in a in

939
00:47:29,920 --> 00:47:31,960
Speaker 1: a in a movement that needs to be about women

940
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: coming to voice and women having a space so that

941
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 1: we can't foreground those voices. But men, we can't really

942
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:42,360
Speaker 1: top all of the patriarchy without um men being engaged

943
00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: in that. I think a friend Matt mcgory does so

944
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:47,480
Speaker 1: much work around Black lives matter and around having conversations

945
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,640
Speaker 1: with white people around their own racism, and so I

946
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 1: think men need to be having conversations with each other,

947
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 1: and I know some incredible guys who are doing that work.

948
00:47:57,000 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: UM list of course listening to women of all from backgrounds,

949
00:48:00,680 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: trans you know, women with disabilities, listening and then having

950
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: conversations with other men and saying and saying this is

951
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,880
Speaker 1: no longer acceptable to talk about women this way and

952
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 1: to have conversations, and then what can we do to

953
00:48:13,400 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 1: change policies, to change hearts and minds? And then how

954
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: can we interrogate ourselves. I think a lot of men

955
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: to what I've come to realize this movement has been

956
00:48:21,920 --> 00:48:23,839
Speaker 1: really intense for me. I got to, um, I can't

957
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 1: BlimE me when I talked about this, because I'm not

958
00:48:25,239 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 1: maybe ready to fully talk about it. But I got

959
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: to confront a man that I had had a sexual

960
00:48:29,160 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: encounter with that the encounter was consentual, but then something

961
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: happened that wasn't consentual, and I was able to recently

962
00:48:37,200 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: recently confront him about that. And what was interesting for

963
00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 1: me in the confrontation is that he had no idea.

964
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:47,239
Speaker 1: He had no idea that his behavior was predatory, that

965
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: he didn't have consent. And I think so often the

966
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:53,839
Speaker 1: idea of consent is something that that that that men

967
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,360
Speaker 1: aren't really clear about. And I I'm very clear that

968
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,640
Speaker 1: what happened was not consentual and it was not okay,

969
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: and I was able to assert that to him. But

970
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: that's a different kind of conversation. What does consent look like? UM?

971
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,799
Speaker 1: A woman I know name who's who teaches um sex

972
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: and in New York and she teaches kids, she's having conversations,

973
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,520
Speaker 1: you know, in middle school, really early on about what

974
00:49:14,800 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: consent is and looks like. And we have to be

975
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,680
Speaker 1: really careful about the messages we're sending to our young

976
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 1: people of all genders about what consent is. And so

977
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 1: those kinds of conversations men should be having with themselves,

978
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:30,680
Speaker 1: with um, with each other, and then ultimately with women

979
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 1: and then listening more and then we all have to

980
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:35,560
Speaker 1: be engaged in changing the culture. Is it just too

981
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: early to kind of push that, as you say, foreground

982
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:42,160
Speaker 1: their voices. No, we should not be foregrounding voy I don't,

983
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,480
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean and I love I love ground

984
00:49:45,840 --> 00:49:49,360
Speaker 1: exactly foregrounding so that we because it's the problem is

985
00:49:49,440 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 1: that for far too often we've listened to men and

986
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: not listen to women. Were at a point now when

987
00:49:54,800 --> 00:49:59,239
Speaker 1: women when women are finally being believed and something heard

988
00:49:59,400 --> 00:50:02,840
Speaker 1: and her, and we have to continue that we have.

989
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 1: That doesn't mean that we're that doesn't mean because I

990
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: love man, doesn't mean we hate man, doesn't mean that

991
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: we want to sort of demonize men. But we have

992
00:50:10,320 --> 00:50:13,920
Speaker 1: to foreground the voices and experiences of women. And then

993
00:50:13,920 --> 00:50:16,279
Speaker 1: I think to whether it's not just women who are

994
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:19,800
Speaker 1: experiencing sexual assault either. Anthony Rapp, we have to remember,

995
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: came forward with some really important information about a well

996
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,240
Speaker 1: known actor that we all know, and um, Terry Crews

997
00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: and other other men have come forward and and so

998
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:31,239
Speaker 1: that they too have been and I know a lot

999
00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:34,920
Speaker 1: of men and just personally who have experienced sexual assault.

1000
00:50:35,200 --> 00:50:37,640
Speaker 1: So um, it's a conversation that we all need to have.

1001
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,359
Speaker 1: But then there's there's something about power and accountability. I think,

1002
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: for so long as it was just okay to do

1003
00:50:45,040 --> 00:50:48,280
Speaker 1: this stuff and time's up, I feel like we should

1004
00:50:48,280 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: also just talk briefly about pay inequality. You know. A

1005
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:56,399
Speaker 1: big story this will air a couple of weeks after

1006
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: this whole incident, but that got a lot of attention

1007
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: is Michelle Williams versus Mark Wahlberg. And I found that

1008
00:51:04,719 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 1: really upsetting but also so interesting on a multiple levels

1009
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: because I think at per usual, Michelle Williams was trying

1010
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: to be super accommodating and saying, I'll do whatever it takes,

1011
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 1: so I'll, you know, skip my holiday, all right, I'll

1012
00:51:19,040 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: go to Italy over Thanksgiving or whatever, and then she

1013
00:51:22,040 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: have the same representation as Mark Wahlberg, who got paid

1014
00:51:24,760 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 1: one point five million dollars. O'Brien told me earlier that

1015
00:51:27,320 --> 00:51:29,799
Speaker 1: there was some stipulation in his contract that he had

1016
00:51:29,840 --> 00:51:32,560
Speaker 1: approval over the replacement actor. Blah blah blah. But the

1017
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,359
Speaker 1: fact of the matter is, I mean, the man held

1018
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 1: it up so that he could get a bunch of money,

1019
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: and the woman said, oh, yeah, sure, I'm happy to

1020
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 1: be accommodating, and you know, do this whenever you want

1021
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 1: to get paid a thousand bucks, which I think speaks

1022
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 1: to eighty dollars a day perum, which which which speaks

1023
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 1: to I think women and are are discomfort in speaking

1024
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: up and demanding things and trying to be liked and

1025
00:51:55,160 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: being the good person versus Mark Wahlberg, who of course

1026
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 1: eventually gave the money to the Times Up movement and

1027
00:52:02,080 --> 00:52:05,160
Speaker 1: to the Legal Defense Fund there. But I mean, why

1028
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,080
Speaker 1: does this keep happening and how do you ussure in

1029
00:52:08,120 --> 00:52:12,560
Speaker 1: a major paradigm shift for that. There's so many issues there,

1030
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: and I can when I when I hear that, I

1031
00:52:15,080 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: know I can relate to, especially being still feeling new

1032
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:20,840
Speaker 1: to the entertainment industry and feel like, I'm just so

1033
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,920
Speaker 1: lucky to be here that I don't want to do

1034
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 1: anything to piss people, and I don't want to do

1035
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: anything to piss anybody off. So I'm like, what do

1036
00:52:26,560 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 1: you need? And always trying to arrive and and be

1037
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:34,600
Speaker 1: easy to work with and eating and agreeable and never difficult.

1038
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: And so that's something I really really deeply relate to. Gosh,

1039
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:40,440
Speaker 1: I think there's so many issues. There's so much that

1040
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 1: we probably don't even know about. In terms of the

1041
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 1: contract negotiations. I'm excited that the money is going to

1042
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 1: Time's up. Um, I'm excited that that's happening. Um. I

1043
00:52:49,719 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: think Michelle Michelle Williams is a brilliant, brilliant artist. Her

1044
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: body of work is so compelling. Her statement around this

1045
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: is has been absolutely just magnanimous and inspiring. I I

1046
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,320
Speaker 1: just love I love her. I don't know her personally,

1047
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:06,400
Speaker 1: but I love the way that she's gone about all this.

1048
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: But part of this is I think women starting to

1049
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,440
Speaker 1: become accustomed to owning some power, you know, and and

1050
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: not being so worried and being able to demand things

1051
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: and not be afraid what that says when it comes

1052
00:53:19,600 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: to And I think I think it's Susie Orman who

1053
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: said that we need to talk about money more in general,

1054
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:27,080
Speaker 1: so that we are having conversations how much are you making?

1055
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,359
Speaker 1: You know, so that we should be openly having conversations

1056
00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: about transparency are other people getting? And then so what

1057
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 1: should I be asking for? So so that that's part

1058
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: of it. But there's something I really get that desire

1059
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:41,600
Speaker 1: to be like what do you need? You know? They

1060
00:53:41,640 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: were reshooting the film because of um the actor who

1061
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: they needed and needed to know. But I don't. I

1062
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: don't know for a reason. But like, so I get

1063
00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 1: where Michelle was coming from. Let me do whatever I can't.

1064
00:53:55,239 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 1: I get it. I really do alaudatory in a way.

1065
00:53:57,760 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: On the other hand, it's like why should we be

1066
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: pleasers and why should we be so helpful? Or maybe

1067
00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 1: the men should be more helpful. Yeah, I was going

1068
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 1: to say, is that a good thing? A bad thing?

1069
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 1: It's so confusing. Oprah talked about how often talks about

1070
00:54:10,560 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: her how her life changed when she let go of

1071
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: her disease to please and I'm I'm still learning that,

1072
00:54:17,640 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: um but really choosing them. Burne Brown says her boundary

1073
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 1: mantras use discomfort over resentment, so we're setting boundaries and

1074
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,840
Speaker 1: and um not being in a space of like constantly

1075
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: wanting to please, but so that we can assert ourselves

1076
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 1: and feel and understand our value. I don't I don't

1077
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 1: know Michelle personally, and I think she I don't know her,

1078
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,200
Speaker 1: but I think she knows her value with I think

1079
00:54:39,239 --> 00:54:42,000
Speaker 1: four Oscar nominations in this body of work. But um,

1080
00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: she's just not a jerk anyway. In closing right, Okay, No,

1081
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 1: but you know what I mean, she's like, I mean,

1082
00:54:52,280 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: she's a mench Yeah, she's a mention. She's a mention.

1083
00:54:54,960 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: Any who, Um, are there other projects you're working on

1084
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,760
Speaker 1: that you can talk about? Freak Show right, Freak shows

1085
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:03,839
Speaker 1: out now, Freak shows in theaters and on demand. It's

1086
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 1: a beautiful UM movie set in high school about a

1087
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:11,000
Speaker 1: young kidney Billy Bloom, who is kind of gender non binary,

1088
00:55:11,080 --> 00:55:13,840
Speaker 1: likes to dress and fantastic costumes at school and it

1089
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: gets bullied and it ends up running for homecoming Queen

1090
00:55:18,120 --> 00:55:19,880
Speaker 1: UM and it's a really beautiful story. I have a

1091
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 1: teeny tiny part in your. Trudy Styler directs and Bette

1092
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:25,719
Speaker 1: Midler has a wonderful role in it. So folks can

1093
00:55:26,320 --> 00:55:27,960
Speaker 1: I think in l a New York City freak show

1094
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: now or on demand. It's you can just get it anywhere.

1095
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: It's fantastic. I love that movie. Um and your model

1096
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:40,160
Speaker 1: for model, Oh my god, that's crazy. Beyonce chose me

1097
00:55:40,320 --> 00:55:42,680
Speaker 1: to be one of the faces of her autumn winter

1098
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:46,239
Speaker 1: campaign for Ivy Park. The posters are still in top

1099
00:55:46,280 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 1: shops all over the world. I still get it's an

1100
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 1: active it's an active where it's her at leisure line.

1101
00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:53,520
Speaker 1: It's amazing. I was an Ivy Park fan even before

1102
00:55:53,560 --> 00:55:57,360
Speaker 1: I was modeling for it. Thank you, Beyonce. That's you.

1103
00:55:57,600 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: Are you and be like this, I just did the

1104
00:55:59,760 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: thing where your fingers are together, like you're super tight. No,

1105
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,359
Speaker 1: I've met Beyonce once. She was about to give birth

1106
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:08,440
Speaker 1: when we shot the ad campaign, so I've only met

1107
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: her once. We're not tight like that. Um, you know,

1108
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:13,640
Speaker 1: you've got to be a lot more Hollywood. You gotta say,

1109
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: we're very very close, you know. I don't do that

1110
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:20,440
Speaker 1: whole thing of like, should I be more Hollywood. I'm

1111
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 1: just gonna be Lavernet. It's actually very refreshing. But she

1112
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 1: she's so I mean. I've interviewed her a couple of times.

1113
00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: I haven't seen her for years, but in the early

1114
00:56:31,239 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: days of Destiny's Child and then when she started on

1115
00:56:33,680 --> 00:56:36,920
Speaker 1: her solo career, I had the pleasure of interviewing her

1116
00:56:36,960 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: and I just I just adore her. I think she

1117
00:56:39,040 --> 00:56:42,279
Speaker 1: is so great and we're so talented. It's ridiculously be

1118
00:56:42,600 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: She's still the queen of us all. I have a

1119
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: few queens, and Beyonce's one, and I remain a genormous fan.

1120
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,440
Speaker 1: Who's your other queen? Um? Oh my god, I have

1121
00:56:51,520 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: many queens, Oprah, Um, Leon, Team Price, Violet Davis, Um.

1122
00:56:57,960 --> 00:56:59,719
Speaker 1: When you look ahead at this year, you know what

1123
00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,960
Speaker 1: what a What are your hopes and dreams? It was

1124
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,759
Speaker 1: funny you were saying you wanted that role and a

1125
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 1: continuing role that one year, and then Orange is a

1126
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:11,919
Speaker 1: New Black popped up. What are your goals? I want

1127
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,320
Speaker 1: to get better at being an artist and being an actress.

1128
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: I got to work on I'm Gonna be in the

1129
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: next season of Orange, and they wrote some really beautiful

1130
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 1: material for me and I I want to get better

1131
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,040
Speaker 1: at what I do. I think being an actor is

1132
00:57:24,880 --> 00:57:28,040
Speaker 1: very difficult. In doing it well, um, it's difficult, but

1133
00:57:28,120 --> 00:57:30,960
Speaker 1: it's also a lifelong pursuit and something that you can

1134
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:32,960
Speaker 1: get better, get older, and get better at. So I

1135
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:34,920
Speaker 1: want to continue to expand all the notes. New show

1136
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: called gland Masters that's coming out on Lifetime. It's a

1137
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: it's a competition reality show from makeup artist UM Kim

1138
00:57:41,680 --> 00:57:43,760
Speaker 1: Kardashian West is one of the executive dos. I'm a

1139
00:57:43,800 --> 00:57:45,760
Speaker 1: co executive producer as well, and I'm also a host

1140
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: and judge and We're looking for the next big breakout

1141
00:57:49,000 --> 00:57:52,040
Speaker 1: star in the beauty industry. It's it's on Lifetimes premering February.

1142
00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:54,320
Speaker 1: I'm so proud of it. I've seen a lot of

1143
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: the episodes and the contestants are incredible. You really understand

1144
00:57:57,560 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 1: that makeup isn't just I'm not wearing makeup today. I

1145
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,040
Speaker 1: thank god. I love having my makeup three days. But

1146
00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 1: the makeup is not just about looking pretty. That it's

1147
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,280
Speaker 1: an art. And these makeup arts we have on the

1148
00:58:07,320 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: show really show you that. And the challenges that we

1149
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 1: give them. Um, you illustrate that and it's fun. It's

1150
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,640
Speaker 1: so much fun. So you're not only doing all your

1151
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 1: acting stuff, You're like turning into a mogul. I'm trying

1152
00:58:19,880 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 1: to do continue to do what I love and do

1153
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:24,040
Speaker 1: and I love a lot of different things, and so

1154
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:27,160
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sort of go with the passion and

1155
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:31,240
Speaker 1: being a space of of joy and multidimensionality. I'm not

1156
00:58:31,480 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 1: just one thing, and so I'm getting to explore all

1157
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:38,480
Speaker 1: of these different sides of myself and showing the world

1158
00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:41,000
Speaker 1: that they can do that as well. I think that's great. Well,

1159
00:58:41,160 --> 00:58:45,120
Speaker 1: I just you know, I adore you. So I'm so

1160
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,520
Speaker 1: happy that you came by on a Sunday no Less

1161
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 1: to visit with us. This has been so much fun.

1162
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 1: I can't wait to see how you edit this because

1163
00:58:55,480 --> 00:59:01,040
Speaker 1: we've talked a lot of big thank you this week

1164
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 1: to the Invisible Studios in l A for today's recording,

1165
00:59:04,320 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: and our usual thanks to the lovely and talented Gianna

1166
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,040
Speaker 1: Palmer for producing the show. We love Gianna, and we

1167
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 1: love Jared O'Connell for mixing it. Oh gosh, I don't

1168
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: want to leave anyone out. We love Nora Richie, our

1169
00:59:16,520 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 1: assistant producer, and Alison Bresnik on social media, Emily Beena

1170
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 1: over at Katie Currect Media, we love you too, and Beth,

1171
00:59:24,920 --> 00:59:28,120
Speaker 1: my assistant. I can't forget her. We love her a

1172
00:59:28,280 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 1: lot because she puts up with me every day. Beth's

1173
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: a wonder woman in her own right. Mark Phillips wrote

1174
00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:36,400
Speaker 1: our theme music. I would say I love you, Mark,

1175
00:59:36,440 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 1: but I don't even know you. And Brian and I

1176
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:41,680
Speaker 1: are the show's executive producers. Talk to you next week,

1177
00:59:41,800 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 1: and thanks so much for listening, everyone,