WEBVTT - Dear Sister 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:02.759 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.720 This episode contains descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:13.840 --> 0:00:16.560 There were things that were spoken about and things that weren't. 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:19.319 There were ways we acted in public in ways that 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:21.840 we didn't. The house had to be cleaned before we 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:24.840 could have anyone over. My mom had a phone voice 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:27.680 and a regular voice. We were encouraged to make up 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.960 white lies to get out of uncomfortable social situations and 0:00:31.080 --> 0:00:35.160 always present our best selves to teachers, friends, and especially boys, 0:00:35.560 --> 0:00:38.400 only allowing the uglier parts of our personality to come 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:41.720 out in private. I was ready to break that pattern. 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:44.120 No more lies, no more pretending. 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:52.080 That's Michelle Horton, writer and advocate, author of Dear Sister, 0:00:52.560 --> 0:00:58.760 a memoir of secrets, survival, and unbreakable bonds. Perhaps all 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:03.520 secrets are dangers, but Michelle's story is about the most 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.600 dangerous kind of secret, the kind where life itself is 0:01:07.640 --> 0:01:13.520 on the line. It's also a story about tremendous courage, tenacity, 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.960 and sisterly love. And it has a happy ending. I promise. 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:38.760 I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is Family Secrets. The secrets 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:40.959 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from 0:01:41.000 --> 0:01:43.800 others and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:54.760 So I grew up in the nineties early two thousands 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:58.160 in the Hudson Valley of New York, which is positioned 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.120 like halfway between New York City and Allpany. It was, 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.800 you know, cul the sac kind of neighborhood where everyone 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:07.720 kind of had two kids in a dog situation, including 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:11.200 my family. It was me and my little sister, Nikki, 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:13.720 she was born a little over two years after me. 0:02:14.320 --> 0:02:17.959 To me, seemed very normal, you know, a breadwinning dad 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.359 and a mom who stayed at home and then did 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:24.200 odds and ends to make ends meet. We always had 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:26.760 somebody home with us, We always had food on the table, 0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:32.000 involved in activities like dance and gymnastics. Everything from the 0:02:32.040 --> 0:02:36.720 outside just seemed very normal. My dad grew up in 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:40.400 a tough environment where he was bullied. He spent a 0:02:40.400 --> 0:02:44.680 lot of time working and was kind of emotionally checked out. 0:02:45.080 --> 0:02:48.640 But it was who every weekend with us, and to 0:02:48.680 --> 0:02:51.720 the best of his capabilities, he showed up for us 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:53.560 in ways that I know his parents didn't show up 0:02:53.600 --> 0:02:58.160 for him. So I think from his perspective, he was, 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:02.799 you know, just mile above what his family was able 0:03:02.840 --> 0:03:04.799 to do for him as a kid, and I think 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.320 he just te did his best. He was very in 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:10.880 love with my mom and just completely enamored with her 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:14.360 our whole lives. My mom is a very warm person. 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:18.160 She was very easy to get along with. She loved 0:03:18.240 --> 0:03:21.320 us intensely. We were kind of her world. She always 0:03:21.360 --> 0:03:24.480 said she felt like her purpose in life was to 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:28.639 birth us. She didn't have great career aspirations, she didn't 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:32.120 think very highly of herself as far as her own life. 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:36.040 She really gave everything she could to us and in 0:03:36.080 --> 0:03:37.840 some ways kind of lived through us. 0:03:38.600 --> 0:03:42.320 So growing up with Nikki, what was your relationship like 0:03:42.360 --> 0:03:43.520 as sisters? 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.080 But we were very young we were close playmates, and 0:03:48.120 --> 0:03:52.520 then as we got older we were always close in proximity, 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:59.040 but emotionally we were not. There was like teasing and rivalry, 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:01.960 and again, to me, it was all in the realm 0:04:02.000 --> 0:04:05.040 of what's normal, Like you're wearing my shirt, take off 0:04:05.080 --> 0:04:08.320 my shirt, you know that's my toy. Kind of to me, 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:14.400 typical sibling kind of dynamic. And then we've definitely drifted apart. 0:04:14.480 --> 0:04:17.599 During our teenage years. We just had our own social circles, 0:04:17.640 --> 0:04:22.559 our own lives. I was very outward focused. I looked 0:04:22.600 --> 0:04:26.359 out for validation. I looked out for my goals and 0:04:26.400 --> 0:04:28.960 my dreams. And I really had this sense that if 0:04:29.360 --> 0:04:31.560 I could just be an A plus student and do 0:04:31.680 --> 0:04:34.320 all the right things and get the right internships and 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.560 the right jobs, and I can just plan and control 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:39.240 my life how I wanted it to be. So I 0:04:39.320 --> 0:04:43.560 was very tenacious, and I had ten year plans down 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:45.839 to like the year, and I just had a tight 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:48.159 grip on what I wanted my future v and I 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:50.880 was kind of tunnel vision as far as what I 0:04:50.920 --> 0:04:56.080 wanted for myself. That probably contributed to our distance, because 0:04:56.240 --> 0:04:59.680 you know, I just was really like focused on getting 0:04:59.680 --> 0:05:03.640 out and doing big things. And we were both good kids, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.080 you know, like we didn't really get into drugs and alcohol, 0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:09.360 we didn't get into trouble at school, we got good grades. 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:12.039 I was really focused on my career what I wanted 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.680 to do. She always wanted to have babies and be 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:19.600 a mom. And she was just quieter. I mean, we 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:24.760 were both pretty quiet, but she was quieter, more timid. 0:05:25.360 --> 0:05:28.680 We both kind of had internal lives that we were 0:05:28.720 --> 0:05:31.200 focused on and that we didn't totally share with each other, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:34.680 you know, looking back now, I know, but she was 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:36.880 struggling with as a kid at the time, I didn't. 0:05:37.000 --> 0:05:39.719 I just thought she just kept to herself. She didn't 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:43.680 share a lot about her likes and her dreams and 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:47.040 her thoughts. You know, she was just a very private person. 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.800 I went away to college when she was in high school. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:54.240 The family really fell apart, not because I left, just 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:58.040 who knows, just for a lot of reasons. Everything fell apart, 0:05:58.120 --> 0:06:00.279 and I kind of left my sister with a lot 0:06:00.320 --> 0:06:05.120 to handle on her own. My parents separated. We were 0:06:05.240 --> 0:06:09.880 very distant during those times, and then I had my 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:12.880 son right out of college. I was twenty two, and 0:06:12.960 --> 0:06:16.000 Nicky showed up for me in a huge way. She 0:06:16.240 --> 0:06:19.040 was in college at the time, locally to where I 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.480 was living, and just babysat all the time, and really 0:06:23.520 --> 0:06:26.600 showed up in a way that was different than we 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:29.839 had in the past. We stopped bickering, we stopped fighting, 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:34.200 we became friends. And then four years later she had 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.599 a baby, and it really was motherhood. I think we 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:44.120 both really became more ourselves through a motherhood and we 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:47.280 realized we liked each other and we helped each other, 0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:49.440 and I think that's when we really started to form 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:53.160 a bond through the lens of motherhood. Her showing up 0:06:53.200 --> 0:06:55.680 for me during that time was really a continuation for 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.039 how she only showed up for me since my son 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:00.680 was born. She was someone I could rely on and 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:05.440 she was just always there for me, and I definitely 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:09.400 confided in her a lot. When you speaking of secrets, 0:07:09.600 --> 0:07:12.680 you know, I was married to someone who had a 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.640 crippling addiction, and it took a long time for me 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.960 to even say that out loud and to call in 0:07:18.080 --> 0:07:21.800 help for my family for a variety of reasons. And 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:26.680 once I did, she never judged, she never lectured me. 0:07:26.920 --> 0:07:29.720 She was just there for me. So when it all 0:07:29.760 --> 0:07:32.280 fell apart and I knew I had to get out 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.880 of that situation because it was getting dangerous, she was 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.000 one of the first people I went to and she 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:39.200 really did help me through that. 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:42.800 Did you know that your husband had an addiction or 0:07:42.840 --> 0:07:44.440 was that something that sort of crept up on you. 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:47.120 Was it like frog and boiling water territory or was 0:07:47.120 --> 0:07:49.040 it you knew and you just kept it to yourself 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:50.480 for as long as you could. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.960 I think both. I think it did come out of 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.200 nowhere for me, as far as he had a prescription 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:01.080 from a doctor and that prescription got pulled when he 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:04.360 was showing signs of dependency, and then he was moving 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:07.960 into street drugs and he let me in enough to 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.400 know there was a problem, but he still kept a 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.160 lot for me. So it took many years of kind 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.280 of unraveling the truth of how deep his addiction was 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:21.040 and how bad things really were. And in that time period, 0:08:21.200 --> 0:08:24.120 it was like, am I overreacting? Maybe this isn't that 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:26.320 big of a deal. Maybe the lies he's telling you 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.680 are true, you know, in that sense, I kind of like, 0:08:30.160 --> 0:08:32.440 wasn't making a big deal about it. And then when 0:08:32.440 --> 0:08:35.040 it got to the level of multiple car accidents and 0:08:35.080 --> 0:08:37.760 he's in and out of the hospital because he's you know, 0:08:37.920 --> 0:08:40.120 crushing his pills and snorting them, and you can't breathe 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:42.319 in the middle of the night, and I'm pretty sure 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:45.360 he's going to die any day, and my bank account 0:08:45.360 --> 0:08:48.400 is being siphoned, and it got to an extreme level 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.199 where I had to let people in because he was 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:51.760 going to die. 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:55.280 And was Nikki among the first people that you let 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:56.600 in during that period of time. 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.520 Definitely, her and my mom were some of the people 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.000 that I went to because, you know, we shared a 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.640 life they were helping me with my son, and they 0:09:06.679 --> 0:09:10.040 were around my ex a lot, and it was becoming 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.040 obvious as something was very wrong. 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:19.600 It's early twenty seventeen. Michelle has extricated herself from this 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.520 difficult relationship and is raising her son Noah as a 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:26.760 single mom. But she's not alone in it. She has 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:29.480 the help and support of her sister and her mother, 0:09:29.679 --> 0:09:32.400 along with her tight knit community in the Hudson Valley. 0:09:32.920 --> 0:09:36.120 She also works at a well known retreat center called 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.480 the Omega Institute, one of the most perfect places to 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.240 land after a chaotic time. 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.520 Omega Institute is this beautiful kind of oasis in Rhinebeck, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:52.960 New York. Just the grounds itself are special. There's this 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:56.120 healing energy that's there that is I mean, I don't 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:58.440 even want to sound woo woo, it's palpable when you're there. 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:02.880 That there is just a real connection to nature and 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:06.199 a connection to community that's there, And from what I 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:10.080 experience working there, it really transfers in the people who 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:14.199 work there. It's just a really beautiful, holistic environment where 0:10:14.240 --> 0:10:18.120 they see the whole of people and situations and their 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:20.600 mission driven. So everyone's there because they want to do 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.320 good work. In the world, and truly, if you're in 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.720 a crisis, there's not a better place on earth you 0:10:25.840 --> 0:10:28.440 could be. It was just this cradle for me when 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:32.400 I both like in the crisis of needing to get 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:36.480 an order of protection against my husband and separating and 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:39.200 all of that like chaos that I was dealing with, 0:10:39.520 --> 0:10:41.600 I was really getting on my feet for the first 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.439 time in many years just getting out of that relationship. 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:48.080 It really felt like there was like a frequency that 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:51.160 was clearing, and I was becoming more attuned to myself 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:54.480 and my own needs and my own wants and healing. 0:10:54.600 --> 0:10:57.720 In a way, Omega really introduced me to all of 0:10:57.720 --> 0:11:01.319 these other healing modalities I never would have considered, and 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:06.320 I was very committed to meditation and checking in with 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:09.760 myself and paying attention and being mindful. It was just 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:14.240 kind of like an emergence of myself after that relationship ended, 0:11:15.280 --> 0:11:18.560 and I was just so excited for my future and 0:11:18.640 --> 0:11:21.560 I felt so hopeful that this was my time to 0:11:21.679 --> 0:11:26.679 step into myself fully. And then in September, the end 0:11:26.720 --> 0:11:30.640 of September, just an ordinary day, I'm going to Omega, 0:11:30.880 --> 0:11:34.120 my son's getting ready for school. There's a very loud 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:37.040 and aggressive knock on my door and I open it 0:11:37.080 --> 0:11:40.720 and there's a police officer standing there, and I'm sure 0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:44.720 that it means my husband's dead, because of course it does, 0:11:45.040 --> 0:11:47.360 like this is everything in my life was leading up 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:51.440 to my husband dying and a police officer telling me that. 0:11:52.200 --> 0:11:55.560 He then instead says that my sister is at the 0:11:55.559 --> 0:11:59.240 police station and we have to get her children, who 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:02.520 are two and four, and they give no information other 0:12:02.559 --> 0:12:05.120 than that, and I'm just kind of thrown into this 0:12:05.240 --> 0:12:08.760 day of complete uncertainty of what the hell is going on, 0:12:09.800 --> 0:12:12.800 like why is my sister at the police station and 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.240 what is happening? And no one's giving us any information. 0:12:17.200 --> 0:12:19.880 And by the end of the day, it's revealed to 0:12:19.920 --> 0:12:25.679 me through my mom that my sister killed her partner, Chris, 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:29.400 someone I knew very well and the father of the 0:12:29.400 --> 0:12:33.880 two kids, and she's arrested and potentially going to be 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:38.240 church with murder. I was shocked. There was nothing that 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:40.640 could have been crazier to me at the time, knowing 0:12:40.679 --> 0:12:43.640 my sister, I knowing Chris, and you know, all this 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:46.760 normalness that we had. I was the one with all 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:50.160 the problems, you know, Now, all of a sudden we're 0:12:50.200 --> 0:12:53.120 in this family crisis, and it's like reality is flipped 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:58.000 on its head. I felt completely groundless and numb and 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.280 just like sheets of adrenaline. That is kind of what 0:13:01.400 --> 0:13:04.560 the physical sensations were like. And my mind was just 0:13:04.679 --> 0:13:07.400 constantly spinning trying to make sense of it. I couldn't 0:13:07.440 --> 0:13:10.160 come up with the like how she would have done it, 0:13:10.559 --> 0:13:13.280 why she would have done it? Nothing made sense, Like 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.439 there was no narrative I could put to it that 0:13:16.559 --> 0:13:18.880 made sense. So I kind of was just living in 0:13:18.880 --> 0:13:22.960 this space of openness of well, someone's gonna tell me 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:26.200 at some point make this make sense, because me trying 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:29.600 to imagine what this is is not possible. So I'm 0:13:29.600 --> 0:13:31.080 just going to kind of put one foot in front 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:35.160 of the other and completely and utterly present because there 0:13:35.200 --> 0:13:37.880 was no reality on either side, Like everything in my 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:41.680 past and everything in the future was completely obsolete, and 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.839 I was just living in this strange reality where I 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:45.440 knew nothing. 0:13:52.679 --> 0:14:13.679 We'll be right back. Nicky didn't allow very many people in. 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:16.920 She didn't let a lot of people get too close 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:20.120 to her, but she had mentioned a friend she'd made 0:14:20.200 --> 0:14:24.920 named Elizabeth. Michelle isn't sure how close Nicky and Elizabeth are, 0:14:25.440 --> 0:14:28.480 if at all, but in her desperate need for information, 0:14:28.760 --> 0:14:34.000 she reaches out and Elizabeth proceeds to tell Michelle that 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:39.880 Chris was a really bad guy. Her exact words. Okay, 0:14:39.920 --> 0:14:44.600 so Elizabeth and Nicki were close. Elizabeth continues to share 0:14:44.680 --> 0:14:48.080 everything that she knows, all the awful things she had witnessed, 0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.640 and everything Nicki had confided in her about the abuse 0:14:51.720 --> 0:14:52.520 she'd been enduring. 0:14:54.360 --> 0:14:57.040 As she was telling the story, it was like, oh 0:14:57.080 --> 0:15:00.360 my god, this makes sense, Like all of these little 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:03.920 inconsistencies throughout the years, things that didn't totally make sense, 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.000 but I wasn't going to ask about it because it's like, 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:08.960 it's not my business, and especially in the last like 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.080 six months to a year before the shooting, like the 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.320 bruising that was on her, Niki always had an excuse. 0:15:15.720 --> 0:15:18.680 But once Elizabeth was giving me the contact that it 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.320 was actually Chris who was doing these things, it all 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:24.800 made sense. I didn't know that there was a gun 0:15:24.840 --> 0:15:27.400 in the house, Like there were so many elements of 0:15:27.440 --> 0:15:30.600 what my sister was living that I didn't know. Elizabeth 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.840 was one of the only people that Nicki led into 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:37.200 her life and said, yes, I'm being hurt and I'm 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:40.880 trying to get out of this, and Elizabeth was working 0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:45.320 closely with Nicki's therapist, and they were safety planning and 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.320 trying to figure out how to leave and what she 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:50.520 would need if she were to leave, and you know 0:15:50.600 --> 0:15:54.200 the logistics of it, which are complicated. She was there 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.720 when Nicki would drive past her house with the kids 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:01.440 and then ultimately go back to an unsafe house. She 0:16:01.600 --> 0:16:04.600 was there taking Nicki to the hospital and Nikki wouldn't 0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:06.920 get out of the car and get help because she 0:16:06.960 --> 0:16:10.960 didn't want to get police involved. Elizabeth had been my 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:15.440 sister's person for over a year at the time, so 0:16:15.600 --> 0:16:18.040 really she was telling me so much information about my 0:16:18.120 --> 0:16:19.080 sister that I didn't know. 0:16:21.640 --> 0:16:24.840 One of the things Michelle didn't know was that there 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:27.600 was a text chain shared by several women who were 0:16:27.600 --> 0:16:32.000 concerned about Nicki's safety. On this chain, aside from Elizabeth, 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.600 was Sarah, Nicki's therapist, and Laurie, who had been Nicki 0:16:36.640 --> 0:16:40.800 and Chris's landlord at one point. So on this same 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.600 day that the world is crumbling, the same day that 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:46.440 she's learned that her sister has killed her partner, and 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:48.360 Michelle is trying to sort out what to say to 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.200 her tiny nephew and niece. She's also discovering that there 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.920 was a small world of women who were terrified for 0:16:55.000 --> 0:16:57.920 her sister, and that none of them had thought to 0:16:57.960 --> 0:16:59.480 reach out to Michelle herself. 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.560 There was so much going on at once that it 0:17:03.600 --> 0:17:06.399 was almost like there wasn't even time or space for 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.120 my own feelings to emerge. It was kind of like, Okay, 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.720 I'm clocking that I'm actually feeling really angry that nobody 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.040 came to me. But when I express it in a 0:17:16.160 --> 0:17:18.879 gentle way, because I was not, you know, there was 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.480 no space to even like really emote. But when I 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:25.960 would say why didn't anyone tell me, the answer was 0:17:25.960 --> 0:17:28.440 always that Nikki didn't think I would believe her, which 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.560 is humiliating. So there's like the embarrassment that all of 0:17:31.600 --> 0:17:35.600 these people knew what was going on and I didn't. 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:40.800 Shame and guilt that I'm pulling in all of this 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:44.560 help for myself a situation that I was like labeling 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:48.320 as dangerous, but I never once thought going and getting 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.520 an order of protection meant it was going to be 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.359 the end of my life, like it is for so 0:17:52.400 --> 0:17:55.119 many domestic violence victims. You know that the level of 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.680 lethality in what my sister was dealing with was a 0:17:57.840 --> 0:18:01.720 completely different level. All of those feelings were very cerebral, 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:03.280 where I was like, oh, yeah, it makes sense that 0:18:03.359 --> 0:18:04.879 I feel like that, but I'm not dealing with that 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.320 right now, Like I'm not actually going to make space 0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:10.520 for that in my body because there's no there's no 0:18:10.600 --> 0:18:13.199 reason to like, this is a crisis and I just 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:17.560 need to gather as much information. And it wasn't really 0:18:17.640 --> 0:18:19.800 a choice. Am I going to show up for my sister? 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:21.960 Am I going to take in her kids? It was 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:25.360 just this is what I need to do. And I 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.240 think me showing up the way that I did so 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:32.720 immediately helped my sister realize like, oh, actually my sister 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:35.879 is here for me and she is going to believe me. So, 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:38.600 I mean it took a long time. We're even having 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:41.560 these conversations in this time period that I'm living, like 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:45.840 going back and apologizing and because it's so deep, those 0:18:45.880 --> 0:18:49.120 feelings of guilt and shame and embarrassment are so deep. 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:53.359 But at the time, it was just like information is information, 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.200 and I will deal with all of those feelings another time. 0:18:56.920 --> 0:19:01.080 I'm also having to talk to CPS worker Child Protective 0:19:01.119 --> 0:19:04.920 Services because there was a case that was opened right 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:08.040 before all of this happened of someone anonymously in the 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:11.600 community saying they think Nikki's being abused by Chris and 0:19:11.640 --> 0:19:15.040 it's affecting the kids, which was really the catalyst for 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.440 what I know that was going to be a murder suicide, 0:19:19.000 --> 0:19:21.400 and it ended up Nikki saving her life that night, 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:25.000 but someone opened a CPS case, so there's still an 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.840 active case that they are investigating. So as I'm talking 0:19:28.880 --> 0:19:31.520 to the CPS workers and just kind of parroting back 0:19:31.600 --> 0:19:34.280 what I'm learning from Elizabeth, all of the bruising that 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:38.960 I saw all of my own like real time confusion 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:41.320 and like, oh my god, I can't believe I didn't 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.959 see this earlier kind of revelations. I'm doing it to 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:48.440 someone who's recording it, you know, the CPS worker, And 0:19:48.560 --> 0:19:51.240 it was very immediate that it came up of this 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:55.600 is deeper than just someone snapping and shooting their partner, 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:57.719 Like this is very, very deep, and it goes back 0:19:57.760 --> 0:20:01.840 to Nikki's childhood and I know there was sexual abuse 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.040 when she was a kid that nobody ever got her 0:20:04.040 --> 0:20:06.440 help for. Like it was just kind of the route 0:20:06.480 --> 0:20:10.120 to me immediately that I knew we didn't talk about 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.280 her being sexually abused, but from what I saw in 0:20:14.320 --> 0:20:17.080 her diary and then just putting the pieces together as 0:20:17.119 --> 0:20:20.600 I grew up. Oh, Nikki doesn't like to talk about sex. 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:25.560 She's actually super disgusted by sex. I first discovered her 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:29.200 diaries when we were in the stage of not being 0:20:29.240 --> 0:20:31.800 so great to each other and snooping in each other's rooms, 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.439 and you know, I went through her stuff and I 0:20:34.560 --> 0:20:37.960 found an old diary and I brought it to my 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:40.440 mom then when I was in high school at the time, 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:45.639 and she got a little flustered and was kind of like, 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.280 I don't know, maybe, And I would bring it up 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.040 to her a little bit throughout the years, and it 0:20:51.080 --> 0:20:53.240 was always with a question mark, like I don't know, 0:20:53.400 --> 0:20:57.800 maybe something happened, and she would say like, well, I 0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.080 did find blood in her underwear, and that was when, 0:21:01.160 --> 0:21:03.439 you know, all of this happened, and she says, you know, 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:05.159 I did find blood in her underwear and she was 0:21:05.240 --> 0:21:07.560 wetting the bed. But it brought her to the doctor, 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:10.320 and the doctor said it was normal because she was 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:14.440 you know, five, and all of her separation anxiety was normal, 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:19.360 and the change in her personality was normal for that age, 0:21:19.440 --> 0:21:22.440 and there was a lot of just like authority figures 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:24.640 like doctors to kind of like telling her it wasn't 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:27.960 a big deal, so she believed it my mom, But 0:21:28.680 --> 0:21:30.640 you know, once all of us happened, it was kind 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:35.480 of like really obvious that this question of maybe something 0:21:35.520 --> 0:21:39.680 happened to her was not a question anymore. This absolutely happened. 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.520 And the word that you use is foundational. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.439 Yeah, And I just knew that there was something that 0:21:46.520 --> 0:21:48.760 happened when she was little that no one got her 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:51.639 help for. Then wanted the CPS workers to know that 0:21:51.720 --> 0:21:55.800 because to me, it explains its context. I think there 0:21:55.880 --> 0:21:59.520 was also a real escalation of violence. So before the 0:21:59.560 --> 0:22:03.399 injuries were visible, there was such an escalation that I 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.560 didn't see. So there were so many more subtle signs 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:10.639 that I don't think I would have been capable of 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.119 really picking up on at all unless I was super 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:18.040 tuned into like the science of trauma and domestic violence. 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:22.679 A lot of the abuse to start was sexual which happens, 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:24.840 you know, where no one is seeing, and the injuries 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.560 where clothes are so there was a lot of ability 0:22:28.560 --> 0:22:32.200 for her to hide the actual evidence of the abuse 0:22:32.320 --> 0:22:35.080 because it wasn't showing up on her skin until it 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:39.479 was escalated to a highly lethal level. I don't think 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:43.000 I had the imagination to really grasp what was happening. 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:45.840 You know, her saying that she tripped or that Ben 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.000 hit her in the face with a guitar or something 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:52.000 was like way more plausible than the idea that she 0:22:52.160 --> 0:22:55.040 was living in a very dangerous home, just because I 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:58.639 had been I had known Chris. He you know, abusers 0:22:58.640 --> 0:23:03.119 don't just their partner, and they condition everyone around them. 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:06.199 So everything was very strategic on his part too, of 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:09.199 like who he showed himself to be, which is a 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.399 tactic where she thinks, no one's going to believe me 0:23:12.520 --> 0:23:15.879 because this guy seems so great to everybody. So there's 0:23:15.920 --> 0:23:18.520 that aspect of it. But then as far as like 0:23:18.880 --> 0:23:22.040 even prior when it comes to like the childhood stuff 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.200 she went through or the very beginning of her relationship 0:23:25.200 --> 0:23:27.800