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Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: This episode contains descriptions of sexual assault. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 1: There were things that were spoken about and things that weren't.

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Speaker 1: There were ways we acted in public in ways that

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Speaker 1: we didn't. The house had to be cleaned before we

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Speaker 1: could have anyone over. My mom had a phone voice

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Speaker 1: and a regular voice. We were encouraged to make up

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Speaker 1: white lies to get out of uncomfortable social situations and

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Speaker 1: always present our best selves to teachers, friends, and especially boys,

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Speaker 1: only allowing the uglier parts of our personality to come

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Speaker 1: out in private. I was ready to break that pattern.

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Speaker 1: No more lies, no more pretending.

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Speaker 2: That's Michelle Horton, writer and advocate, author of Dear Sister,

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Speaker 2: a memoir of secrets, survival, and unbreakable bonds. Perhaps all

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Speaker 2: secrets are dangers, but Michelle's story is about the most

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Speaker 2: dangerous kind of secret, the kind where life itself is

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Speaker 2: on the line. It's also a story about tremendous courage, tenacity,

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Speaker 2: and sisterly love. And it has a happy ending. I promise.

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Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is Family Secrets. The secrets

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Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from

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Speaker 2: others and the secrets we keep from ourselves.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up in the nineties early two thousands

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Speaker 1: in the Hudson Valley of New York, which is positioned

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Speaker 1: like halfway between New York City and Allpany. It was,

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Speaker 1: you know, cul the sac kind of neighborhood where everyone

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Speaker 1: kind of had two kids in a dog situation, including

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Speaker 1: my family. It was me and my little sister, Nikki,

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Speaker 1: she was born a little over two years after me.

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Speaker 1: To me, seemed very normal, you know, a breadwinning dad

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Speaker 1: and a mom who stayed at home and then did

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Speaker 1: odds and ends to make ends meet. We always had

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Speaker 1: somebody home with us, We always had food on the table,

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Speaker 1: involved in activities like dance and gymnastics. Everything from the

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Speaker 1: outside just seemed very normal. My dad grew up in

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Speaker 1: a tough environment where he was bullied. He spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of time working and was kind of emotionally checked out.

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Speaker 1: But it was who every weekend with us, and to

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Speaker 1: the best of his capabilities, he showed up for us

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Speaker 1: in ways that I know his parents didn't show up

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Speaker 1: for him. So I think from his perspective, he was,

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Speaker 1: you know, just mile above what his family was able

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Speaker 1: to do for him as a kid, and I think

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Speaker 1: he just te did his best. He was very in

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Speaker 1: love with my mom and just completely enamored with her

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Speaker 1: our whole lives. My mom is a very warm person.

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Speaker 1: She was very easy to get along with. She loved

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Speaker 1: us intensely. We were kind of her world. She always

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Speaker 1: said she felt like her purpose in life was to

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Speaker 1: birth us. She didn't have great career aspirations, she didn't

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Speaker 1: think very highly of herself as far as her own life.

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Speaker 1: She really gave everything she could to us and in

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Speaker 1: some ways kind of lived through us.

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Speaker 2: So growing up with Nikki, what was your relationship like

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Speaker 2: as sisters?

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Speaker 1: But we were very young we were close playmates, and

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Speaker 1: then as we got older we were always close in proximity,

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Speaker 1: but emotionally we were not. There was like teasing and rivalry,

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Speaker 1: and again, to me, it was all in the realm

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Speaker 1: of what's normal, Like you're wearing my shirt, take off

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Speaker 1: my shirt, you know that's my toy. Kind of to me,

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Speaker 1: typical sibling kind of dynamic. And then we've definitely drifted apart.

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Speaker 1: During our teenage years. We just had our own social circles,

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Speaker 1: our own lives. I was very outward focused. I looked

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Speaker 1: out for validation. I looked out for my goals and

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Speaker 1: my dreams. And I really had this sense that if

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Speaker 1: I could just be an A plus student and do

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Speaker 1: all the right things and get the right internships and

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Speaker 1: the right jobs, and I can just plan and control

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Speaker 1: my life how I wanted it to be. So I

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Speaker 1: was very tenacious, and I had ten year plans down

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Speaker 1: to like the year, and I just had a tight

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Speaker 1: grip on what I wanted my future v and I

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Speaker 1: was kind of tunnel vision as far as what I

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Speaker 1: wanted for myself. That probably contributed to our distance, because

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Speaker 1: you know, I just was really like focused on getting

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Speaker 1: out and doing big things. And we were both good kids,

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Speaker 1: you know, like we didn't really get into drugs and alcohol,

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Speaker 1: we didn't get into trouble at school, we got good grades.

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Speaker 1: I was really focused on my career what I wanted

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Speaker 1: to do. She always wanted to have babies and be

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Speaker 1: a mom. And she was just quieter. I mean, we

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Speaker 1: were both pretty quiet, but she was quieter, more timid.

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Speaker 1: We both kind of had internal lives that we were

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Speaker 1: focused on and that we didn't totally share with each other,

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Speaker 1: you know, looking back now, I know, but she was

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Speaker 1: struggling with as a kid at the time, I didn't.

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Speaker 1: I just thought she just kept to herself. She didn't

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Speaker 1: share a lot about her likes and her dreams and

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Speaker 1: her thoughts. You know, she was just a very private person.

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Speaker 1: I went away to college when she was in high school.

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Speaker 1: The family really fell apart, not because I left, just

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Speaker 1: who knows, just for a lot of reasons. Everything fell apart,

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Speaker 1: and I kind of left my sister with a lot

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Speaker 1: to handle on her own. My parents separated. We were

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Speaker 1: very distant during those times, and then I had my

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Speaker 1: son right out of college. I was twenty two, and

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Speaker 1: Nicky showed up for me in a huge way. She

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Speaker 1: was in college at the time, locally to where I

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Speaker 1: was living, and just babysat all the time, and really

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Speaker 1: showed up in a way that was different than we

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Speaker 1: had in the past. We stopped bickering, we stopped fighting,

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Speaker 1: we became friends. And then four years later she had

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Speaker 1: a baby, and it really was motherhood. I think we

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Speaker 1: both really became more ourselves through a motherhood and we

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Speaker 1: realized we liked each other and we helped each other,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's when we really started to form

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Speaker 1: a bond through the lens of motherhood. Her showing up

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Speaker 1: for me during that time was really a continuation for

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Speaker 1: how she only showed up for me since my son

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Speaker 1: was born. She was someone I could rely on and

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Speaker 1: she was just always there for me, and I definitely

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Speaker 1: confided in her a lot. When you speaking of secrets,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was married to someone who had a

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Speaker 1: crippling addiction, and it took a long time for me

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Speaker 1: to even say that out loud and to call in

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Speaker 1: help for my family for a variety of reasons. And

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Speaker 1: once I did, she never judged, she never lectured me.

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Speaker 1: She was just there for me. So when it all

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Speaker 1: fell apart and I knew I had to get out

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Speaker 1: of that situation because it was getting dangerous, she was

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Speaker 1: one of the first people I went to and she

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Speaker 1: really did help me through that.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that your husband had an addiction or

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Speaker 2: was that something that sort of crept up on you.

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Speaker 2: Was it like frog and boiling water territory or was

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Speaker 2: it you knew and you just kept it to yourself

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Speaker 2: for as long as you could.

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Speaker 1: I think both. I think it did come out of

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Speaker 1: nowhere for me, as far as he had a prescription

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Speaker 1: from a doctor and that prescription got pulled when he

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Speaker 1: was showing signs of dependency, and then he was moving

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Speaker 1: into street drugs and he let me in enough to

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Speaker 1: know there was a problem, but he still kept a

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Speaker 1: lot for me. So it took many years of kind

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Speaker 1: of unraveling the truth of how deep his addiction was

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Speaker 1: and how bad things really were. And in that time period,

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Speaker 1: it was like, am I overreacting? Maybe this isn't that

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Speaker 1: big of a deal. Maybe the lies he's telling you

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Speaker 1: are true, you know, in that sense, I kind of like,

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Speaker 1: wasn't making a big deal about it. And then when

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Speaker 1: it got to the level of multiple car accidents and

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Speaker 1: he's in and out of the hospital because he's you know,

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Speaker 1: crushing his pills and snorting them, and you can't breathe

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Speaker 1: in the middle of the night, and I'm pretty sure

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Speaker 1: he's going to die any day, and my bank account

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Speaker 1: is being siphoned, and it got to an extreme level

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Speaker 1: where I had to let people in because he was

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Speaker 1: going to die.

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Speaker 2: And was Nikki among the first people that you let

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Speaker 2: in during that period of time.

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Speaker 1: Definitely, her and my mom were some of the people

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Speaker 1: that I went to because, you know, we shared a

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Speaker 1: life they were helping me with my son, and they

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Speaker 1: were around my ex a lot, and it was becoming

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Speaker 1: obvious as something was very wrong.

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Speaker 2: It's early twenty seventeen. Michelle has extricated herself from this

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Speaker 2: difficult relationship and is raising her son Noah as a

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Speaker 2: single mom. But she's not alone in it. She has

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Speaker 2: the help and support of her sister and her mother,

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Speaker 2: along with her tight knit community in the Hudson Valley.

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Speaker 2: She also works at a well known retreat center called

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Speaker 2: the Omega Institute, one of the most perfect places to

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Speaker 2: land after a chaotic time.

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Speaker 1: Omega Institute is this beautiful kind of oasis in Rhinebeck,

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Speaker 1: New York. Just the grounds itself are special. There's this

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Speaker 1: healing energy that's there that is I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: even want to sound woo woo, it's palpable when you're there.

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Speaker 1: That there is just a real connection to nature and

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Speaker 1: a connection to community that's there, And from what I

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Speaker 1: experience working there, it really transfers in the people who

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Speaker 1: work there. It's just a really beautiful, holistic environment where

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Speaker 1: they see the whole of people and situations and their

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Speaker 1: mission driven. So everyone's there because they want to do

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Speaker 1: good work. In the world, and truly, if you're in

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Speaker 1: a crisis, there's not a better place on earth you

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Speaker 1: could be. It was just this cradle for me when

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Speaker 1: I both like in the crisis of needing to get

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Speaker 1: an order of protection against my husband and separating and

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Speaker 1: all of that like chaos that I was dealing with,

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Speaker 1: I was really getting on my feet for the first

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Speaker 1: time in many years just getting out of that relationship.

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Speaker 1: It really felt like there was like a frequency that

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Speaker 1: was clearing, and I was becoming more attuned to myself

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Speaker 1: and my own needs and my own wants and healing.

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Speaker 1: In a way, Omega really introduced me to all of

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Speaker 1: these other healing modalities I never would have considered, and

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Speaker 1: I was very committed to meditation and checking in with

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Speaker 1: myself and paying attention and being mindful. It was just

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Speaker 1: kind of like an emergence of myself after that relationship ended,

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Speaker 1: and I was just so excited for my future and

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Speaker 1: I felt so hopeful that this was my time to

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Speaker 1: step into myself fully. And then in September, the end

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Speaker 1: of September, just an ordinary day, I'm going to Omega,

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Speaker 1: my son's getting ready for school. There's a very loud

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Speaker 1: and aggressive knock on my door and I open it

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Speaker 1: and there's a police officer standing there, and I'm sure

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Speaker 1: that it means my husband's dead, because of course it does,

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Speaker 1: like this is everything in my life was leading up

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Speaker 1: to my husband dying and a police officer telling me that.

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Speaker 1: He then instead says that my sister is at the

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Speaker 1: police station and we have to get her children, who

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Speaker 1: are two and four, and they give no information other

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Speaker 1: than that, and I'm just kind of thrown into this

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Speaker 1: day of complete uncertainty of what the hell is going on,

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Speaker 1: like why is my sister at the police station and

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Speaker 1: what is happening? And no one's giving us any information.

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Speaker 1: And by the end of the day, it's revealed to

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Speaker 1: me through my mom that my sister killed her partner, Chris,

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Speaker 1: someone I knew very well and the father of the

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Speaker 1: two kids, and she's arrested and potentially going to be

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Speaker 1: church with murder. I was shocked. There was nothing that

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Speaker 1: could have been crazier to me at the time, knowing

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Speaker 1: my sister, I knowing Chris, and you know, all this

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Speaker 1: normalness that we had. I was the one with all

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Speaker 1: the problems, you know, Now, all of a sudden we're

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Speaker 1: in this family crisis, and it's like reality is flipped

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Speaker 1: on its head. I felt completely groundless and numb and

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Speaker 1: just like sheets of adrenaline. That is kind of what

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Speaker 1: the physical sensations were like. And my mind was just

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Speaker 1: constantly spinning trying to make sense of it. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: come up with the like how she would have done it,

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Speaker 1: why she would have done it? Nothing made sense, Like

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Speaker 1: there was no narrative I could put to it that

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Speaker 1: made sense. So I kind of was just living in

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Speaker 1: this space of openness of well, someone's gonna tell me

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Speaker 1: at some point make this make sense, because me trying

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Speaker 1: to imagine what this is is not possible. So I'm

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Speaker 1: just going to kind of put one foot in front

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Speaker 1: of the other and completely and utterly present because there

230
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Speaker 1: was no reality on either side, Like everything in my

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Speaker 1: past and everything in the future was completely obsolete, and

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Speaker 1: I was just living in this strange reality where I

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Speaker 1: knew nothing.

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Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Nicky didn't allow very many people in.

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Speaker 2: She didn't let a lot of people get too close

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Speaker 2: to her, but she had mentioned a friend she'd made

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Speaker 2: named Elizabeth. Michelle isn't sure how close Nicky and Elizabeth are,

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Speaker 2: if at all, but in her desperate need for information,

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Speaker 2: she reaches out and Elizabeth proceeds to tell Michelle that

240
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Speaker 2: Chris was a really bad guy. Her exact words. Okay,

241
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Speaker 2: so Elizabeth and Nicki were close. Elizabeth continues to share

242
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Speaker 2: everything that she knows, all the awful things she had witnessed,

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Speaker 2: and everything Nicki had confided in her about the abuse

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Speaker 2: she'd been enduring.

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Speaker 1: As she was telling the story, it was like, oh

246
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Speaker 1: my god, this makes sense, Like all of these little

247
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Speaker 1: inconsistencies throughout the years, things that didn't totally make sense,

248
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Speaker 1: but I wasn't going to ask about it because it's like,

249
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Speaker 1: it's not my business, and especially in the last like

250
00:15:09,120 --> 00:15:12,080
Speaker 1: six months to a year before the shooting, like the

251
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Speaker 1: bruising that was on her, Niki always had an excuse.

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Speaker 1: But once Elizabeth was giving me the contact that it

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Speaker 1: was actually Chris who was doing these things, it all

254
00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:24,800
Speaker 1: made sense. I didn't know that there was a gun

255
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Speaker 1: in the house, Like there were so many elements of

256
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Speaker 1: what my sister was living that I didn't know. Elizabeth

257
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Speaker 1: was one of the only people that Nicki led into

258
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Speaker 1: her life and said, yes, I'm being hurt and I'm

259
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Speaker 1: trying to get out of this, and Elizabeth was working

260
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Speaker 1: closely with Nicki's therapist, and they were safety planning and

261
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Speaker 1: trying to figure out how to leave and what she

262
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:50,520
Speaker 1: would need if she were to leave, and you know

263
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Speaker 1: the logistics of it, which are complicated. She was there

264
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Speaker 1: when Nicki would drive past her house with the kids

265
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Speaker 1: and then ultimately go back to an unsafe house. She

266
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Speaker 1: was there taking Nicki to the hospital and Nikki wouldn't

267
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Speaker 1: get out of the car and get help because she

268
00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:10,960
Speaker 1: didn't want to get police involved. Elizabeth had been my

269
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Speaker 1: sister's person for over a year at the time, so

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Speaker 1: really she was telling me so much information about my

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Speaker 1: sister that I didn't know.

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Speaker 2: One of the things Michelle didn't know was that there

273
00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,600
Speaker 2: was a text chain shared by several women who were

274
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,000
Speaker 2: concerned about Nicki's safety. On this chain, aside from Elizabeth,

275
00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 2: was Sarah, Nicki's therapist, and Laurie, who had been Nicki

276
00:16:36,640 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 2: and Chris's landlord at one point. So on this same

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00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 2: day that the world is crumbling, the same day that

278
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,440
Speaker 2: she's learned that her sister has killed her partner, and

279
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Speaker 2: Michelle is trying to sort out what to say to

280
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Speaker 2: her tiny nephew and niece. She's also discovering that there

281
00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:54,920
Speaker 2: was a small world of women who were terrified for

282
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Speaker 2: her sister, and that none of them had thought to

283
00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,480
Speaker 2: reach out to Michelle herself.

284
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Speaker 1: There was so much going on at once that it

285
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,399
Speaker 1: was almost like there wasn't even time or space for

286
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:09,120
Speaker 1: my own feelings to emerge. It was kind of like, Okay,

287
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 1: I'm clocking that I'm actually feeling really angry that nobody

288
00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,040
Speaker 1: came to me. But when I express it in a

289
00:17:16,160 --> 00:17:18,879
Speaker 1: gentle way, because I was not, you know, there was

290
00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,480
Speaker 1: no space to even like really emote. But when I

291
00:17:21,520 --> 00:17:25,960
Speaker 1: would say why didn't anyone tell me, the answer was

292
00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:28,440
Speaker 1: always that Nikki didn't think I would believe her, which

293
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Speaker 1: is humiliating. So there's like the embarrassment that all of

294
00:17:31,600 --> 00:17:35,600
Speaker 1: these people knew what was going on and I didn't.

295
00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,800
Speaker 1: Shame and guilt that I'm pulling in all of this

296
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Speaker 1: help for myself a situation that I was like labeling

297
00:17:44,640 --> 00:17:48,320
Speaker 1: as dangerous, but I never once thought going and getting

298
00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,520
Speaker 1: an order of protection meant it was going to be

299
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,359
Speaker 1: the end of my life, like it is for so

300
00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 1: many domestic violence victims. You know that the level of

301
00:17:55,200 --> 00:17:57,680
Speaker 1: lethality in what my sister was dealing with was a

302
00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,720
Speaker 1: completely different level. All of those feelings were very cerebral,

303
00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:03,280
Speaker 1: where I was like, oh, yeah, it makes sense that

304
00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 1: I feel like that, but I'm not dealing with that

305
00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,320
Speaker 1: right now, Like I'm not actually going to make space

306
00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 1: for that in my body because there's no there's no

307
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:13,199
Speaker 1: reason to like, this is a crisis and I just

308
00:18:13,240 --> 00:18:17,560
Speaker 1: need to gather as much information. And it wasn't really

309
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Speaker 1: a choice. Am I going to show up for my sister?

310
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Speaker 1: Am I going to take in her kids? It was

311
00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:25,360
Speaker 1: just this is what I need to do. And I

312
00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 1: think me showing up the way that I did so

313
00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:32,720
Speaker 1: immediately helped my sister realize like, oh, actually my sister

314
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Speaker 1: is here for me and she is going to believe me. So,

315
00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean it took a long time. We're even having

316
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,560
Speaker 1: these conversations in this time period that I'm living, like

317
00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,840
Speaker 1: going back and apologizing and because it's so deep, those

318
00:18:45,880 --> 00:18:49,120
Speaker 1: feelings of guilt and shame and embarrassment are so deep.

319
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Speaker 1: But at the time, it was just like information is information,

320
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Speaker 1: and I will deal with all of those feelings another time.

321
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Speaker 1: I'm also having to talk to CPS worker Child Protective

322
00:19:01,119 --> 00:19:04,920
Speaker 1: Services because there was a case that was opened right

323
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 1: before all of this happened of someone anonymously in the

324
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:11,600
Speaker 1: community saying they think Nikki's being abused by Chris and

325
00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,040
Speaker 1: it's affecting the kids, which was really the catalyst for

326
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Speaker 1: what I know that was going to be a murder suicide,

327
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Speaker 1: and it ended up Nikki saving her life that night,

328
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Speaker 1: but someone opened a CPS case, so there's still an

329
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Speaker 1: active case that they are investigating. So as I'm talking

330
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Speaker 1: to the CPS workers and just kind of parroting back

331
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Speaker 1: what I'm learning from Elizabeth, all of the bruising that

332
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 1: I saw all of my own like real time confusion

333
00:19:39,119 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 1: and like, oh my god, I can't believe I didn't

334
00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,959
Speaker 1: see this earlier kind of revelations. I'm doing it to

335
00:19:45,040 --> 00:19:48,440
Speaker 1: someone who's recording it, you know, the CPS worker, And

336
00:19:48,560 --> 00:19:51,240
Speaker 1: it was very immediate that it came up of this

337
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:55,600
Speaker 1: is deeper than just someone snapping and shooting their partner,

338
00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:57,719
Speaker 1: Like this is very, very deep, and it goes back

339
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: to Nikki's childhood and I know there was sexual abuse

340
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 1: when she was a kid that nobody ever got her

341
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:06,440
Speaker 1: help for. Like it was just kind of the route

342
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:10,120
Speaker 1: to me immediately that I knew we didn't talk about

343
00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 1: her being sexually abused, but from what I saw in

344
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 1: her diary and then just putting the pieces together as

345
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:20,600
Speaker 1: I grew up. Oh, Nikki doesn't like to talk about sex.

346
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,560
Speaker 1: She's actually super disgusted by sex. I first discovered her

347
00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:29,200
Speaker 1: diaries when we were in the stage of not being

348
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,800
Speaker 1: so great to each other and snooping in each other's rooms,

349
00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,439
Speaker 1: and you know, I went through her stuff and I

350
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: found an old diary and I brought it to my

351
00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,440
Speaker 1: mom then when I was in high school at the time,

352
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:45,639
Speaker 1: and she got a little flustered and was kind of like,

353
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe, And I would bring it up

354
00:20:48,320 --> 00:20:51,040
Speaker 1: to her a little bit throughout the years, and it

355
00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,240
Speaker 1: was always with a question mark, like I don't know,

356
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: maybe something happened, and she would say like, well, I

357
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 1: did find blood in her underwear, and that was when,

358
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:03,439
Speaker 1: you know, all of this happened, and she says, you know,

359
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,159
Speaker 1: I did find blood in her underwear and she was

360
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,560
Speaker 1: wetting the bed. But it brought her to the doctor,

361
00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,320
Speaker 1: and the doctor said it was normal because she was

362
00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:14,440
Speaker 1: you know, five, and all of her separation anxiety was normal,

363
00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:19,360
Speaker 1: and the change in her personality was normal for that age,

364
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,440
Speaker 1: and there was a lot of just like authority figures

365
00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:24,640
Speaker 1: like doctors to kind of like telling her it wasn't

366
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,960
Speaker 1: a big deal, so she believed it my mom, But

367
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,640
Speaker 1: you know, once all of us happened, it was kind

368
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 1: of like really obvious that this question of maybe something

369
00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 1: happened to her was not a question anymore. This absolutely happened.

370
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: And the word that you use is foundational.

371
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I just knew that there was something that

372
00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:48,760
Speaker 1: happened when she was little that no one got her

373
00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,639
Speaker 1: help for. Then wanted the CPS workers to know that

374
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: because to me, it explains its context. I think there

375
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 1: was also a real escalation of violence. So before the

376
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:03,399
Speaker 1: injuries were visible, there was such an escalation that I

377
00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 1: didn't see. So there were so many more subtle signs

378
00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 1: that I don't think I would have been capable of

379
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 1: really picking up on at all unless I was super

380
00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: tuned into like the science of trauma and domestic violence.

381
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,679
Speaker 1: A lot of the abuse to start was sexual which happens,

382
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 1: you know, where no one is seeing, and the injuries

383
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: where clothes are so there was a lot of ability

384
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 1: for her to hide the actual evidence of the abuse

385
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: because it wasn't showing up on her skin until it

386
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:39,479
Speaker 1: was escalated to a highly lethal level. I don't think

387
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,000
Speaker 1: I had the imagination to really grasp what was happening.

388
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 1: You know, her saying that she tripped or that Ben

389
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,000
Speaker 1: hit her in the face with a guitar or something

390
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:52,000
Speaker 1: was like way more plausible than the idea that she

391
00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:55,040
Speaker 1: was living in a very dangerous home, just because I

392
00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,639
Speaker 1: had been I had known Chris. He you know, abusers

393
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 1: don't just their partner, and they condition everyone around them.

394
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,199
Speaker 1: So everything was very strategic on his part too, of

395
00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:09,199
Speaker 1: like who he showed himself to be, which is a

396
00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 1: tactic where she thinks, no one's going to believe me

397
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,879
Speaker 1: because this guy seems so great to everybody. So there's

398
00:23:15,920 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 1: that aspect of it. But then as far as like

399
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,040
Speaker 1: even prior when it comes to like the childhood stuff

400
00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 1: she went through or the very beginning of her relationship

401
00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 1: with Chris, there were signs where even police were involved.

402
00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: There was this culture of I don't want to say

403
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: something to make her upset. I don't want this is

404
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:38,359
Speaker 1: this really my business, you know, like if she needs me,

405
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 1: she'll talk to me. I don't want to like rock

406
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,480
Speaker 1: the boat family dynamic where we just don't want to

407
00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,479
Speaker 1: upset each other. As I've grown older, I've kind of

408
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: like wondered if that's kind of a part of codependent enmeshment,

409
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 1: where it's like I don't want to point out this

410
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 1: issue because then it becomes my issue because there's no

411
00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 1: boundaries between anyone. But there's just this this element, this

412
00:24:00,840 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 1: unspoken element of what is appropriate and not appropriate to

413
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,840
Speaker 1: talk about and to push back on. And I just

414
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 1: never really wanted to embarrass her or I just wanted

415
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: to keep the peace, I guess, which is just I

416
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 1: think pretty common and a lot of family dynamics.

417
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, it's so.

418
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: Hard because whenever something happens and there's someone who was

419
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: an abuse there there's always people who say like, well,

420
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,159
Speaker 1: he wasn't like that with me, so he couldn't have

421
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:33,440
Speaker 1: been like that with anybody, And it's so hard. I

422
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: think whos was to me is very different than even

423
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 1: like his friends or his family would say to me.

424
00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:42,959
Speaker 1: He was just very distant, kind of had just a

425
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: flat personality, like he was very hard to get close to,

426
00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: never really shared much about himself, was just kind of

427
00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 1: very surface, like, hey, how were you? There was no

428
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,960
Speaker 1: depth to our relationship at all. I'm sure that was

429
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:58,439
Speaker 1: for a reason, but I just never felt like I

430
00:24:58,480 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 1: really got close to him ever. But he was just

431
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: very nice and he worked with kids. He was a

432
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: gymnastics coach. He was really good with kids, like as

433
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,120
Speaker 1: far as my own son was very close to him,

434
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: and he seemed good with his own kids, you know,

435
00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 1: just kind of like this goofy kid like he was

436
00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: really into video games and superheroes and just seemed very

437
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:26,320
Speaker 1: like safe and non threatening. That's just kind of how

438
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:28,280
Speaker 1: he came off to me at the time.

439
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,960
Speaker 2: When Michelle finally sees Nicki, she learns there's even more

440
00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 2: to the story. Nicki had felt like she was under

441
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 2: a constant threat in her relationship that if she ever

442
00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,320
Speaker 2: left Chris, he would kill her and she would never

443
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: see her kids again. That was the threat the trap.

444
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 2: Michelle also learns from Sarah Nicki's therapist that Chris had

445
00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 2: also been trafficking Nicki. He was a videographer who made

446
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,120
Speaker 2: horribly degrading, violent videos of his wife and put them

447
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: up on the Internet for people to watch and in

448
00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:11,720
Speaker 2: some cases, for a profit. At a certain point, the

449
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: police had received an anonymous tip about this trafficking and

450
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:20,200
Speaker 2: this is the moment Chris threatens murder suicide, And this

451
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 2: is the moment Nikki says, enough, this is her breaking point.

452
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean, the way she described it is it it

453
00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: wasn't really even a choice. It was just she had

454
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 1: the gun in her hands by crazy luck as far

455
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,119
Speaker 1: as scrambling and getting the gun, and the way she

456
00:26:39,200 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 1: described it as like milliseconds of time of him making

457
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 1: the threat and then her just lunging and pulling the

458
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: trigger like without a thought. It was just her body

459
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: a natural reaction to the threat. It was not like

460
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,640
Speaker 1: she hemmed it hot and made a decision or even

461
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: that she like snapped, just her body's survival instincts kicking in.

462
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: But she tells me basically what happens on the phone

463
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,240
Speaker 1: that night. Because we do not know anything about the law,

464
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 1: We've never been in trouble, we don't really understand you're

465
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: not supposed to say things on the phone or like

466
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,439
Speaker 1: you know, the role of prosecutors. We're completely naive. But

467
00:27:20,520 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: she says it on the phone, and all of the

468
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:29,360
Speaker 1: context is able to be said to me through like Sarah,

469
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: her therapist, through Laurie, who has a background in sex trafficking,

470
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,240
Speaker 1: like She's on a coalition for sexual violence and her

471
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,679
Speaker 1: job is helping sex traffic youth. She just also happens

472
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 1: to be Nicky's landlord. Like all of these people who

473
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,480
Speaker 1: have this expertise and are able to communicate it to me,

474
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:50,159
Speaker 1: teach me and help me understand so that Nicki doesn't

475
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:52,640
Speaker 1: have to dump all of that and like relive all

476
00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: of it with me, which was great for her because

477
00:27:56,760 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: there was so much she was keeping for me that

478
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: to have to like go back like it was a

479
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: relief for her when I would come and visit her

480
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:07,639
Speaker 1: and I already have the information, so then she can

481
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,919
Speaker 1: just start from there instead of having to drop all

482
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 1: of these bombs about trafficking, and I mean, it was

483
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 1: humiliating for her. It was another layer of keeping her

484
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 1: tethered to him, because the blackmail of you know, well,

485
00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell everyone that you like these videos and

486
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 1: I'm going to get your kids, and I'm going to

487
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,840
Speaker 1: get custody, and you know, I'm gonna slutshame you, and

488
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,639
Speaker 1: it was a real true factor in keeping her in

489
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: an unsafe situation.

490
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,719
Speaker 2: Nicki's case begins to be processed in the Duchess County

491
00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,719
Speaker 2: Court system. But then is abruptly moved to Putnam County.

492
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 2: The reasons for this move are concerning. There had already

493
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: been record in Dutchess County of Nicki as a victim

494
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,880
Speaker 2: of domestic abuse. There was already an awareness within the

495
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 2: police department of the trafficking which they were tracking, of

496
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 2: a gun in the house of small children of Chris

497
00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: as perpetrator. It was a tinder box of a situation,

498
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 2: so they were moving carefully trying to figure out how

499
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 2: to keep Nikki and the kids safe. So instead of

500
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 2: dropping the murder charges as they could have done, they

501
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 2: accused themselves without giving the real reason. They just say

502
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 2: there's a conflict. This is where Hannah, a prosecutor in

503
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: a Putnam County justice system, enters the picture.

504
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: It takes like quite a few months for the Dutchy's

505
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 1: county to recuse themselves, where Nicki's just sitting in jail,

506
00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: and so by the end of twenty seventeen beginning of

507
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, Hannah comes on board. And she's a woman

508
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: who previously worked prosecuting domestic violence and sex crimes down

509
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: in the Bronx. So we thought that was a good

510
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: thing that she would understand these kinds of cases, and

511
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: she was a woman, which we also naively assumed would

512
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: be a good thing. And then she came in kind

513
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: of as this person saying, I just want to understand

514
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,600
Speaker 1: the truth. I'm going to investigate thoroughly. That took many months,

515
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 1: which is real time that my sister's doing, sitting in

516
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: jail and the kids don't know when their mom's coming home.

517
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: And then over time she really expertly manipulates the evidence

518
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: and manipulates a lot of things and concocts an alternate

519
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: narrative where my sister is, as Hanna said, a master

520
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 1: manipulator who planned a very imperfect murderer, and she was

521
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,840
Speaker 1: pursuing a conviction very aggressively.

522
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: Did you end up ever having any kind of theory

523
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: about why? I mean, because her reasoning was so preposterous

524
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: for why a woman would end up with these really

525
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: grievous physical injuries and hide them from everyone, So that

526
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 2: really the people who end up knowing are a very

527
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: small circle of people and have to figure it out.

528
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 2: And you know, you yourself or sister aren't seeing it.

529
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: She's hiding it and coming up with this counter narrative,

530
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 2: and one of the things that seemed most confounding to

531
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 2: me is that she uses the abuse that Nicki suffered

532
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: at the hands of Uncle Butch, and also another incident

533
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:28,200
Speaker 2: where Niki was later abused by another man named Dave

534
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: who sort of took her in under the guise of

535
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to protect you and then was in a

536
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: position of power over her and raped her. What Hannah's

537
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 2: response to that is, lightning doesn't strike twice. In other words,

538
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 2: there's just no way that Nicki would have been, you know,

539
00:31:45,840 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 2: abused this many times, and you know that that would

540
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,960
Speaker 2: mean that Chris wasn't her abuser. And Sarah the therapist's

541
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 2: response is a really powerful one, you know, which is

542
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 2: you know that when it comes to sexual assault and abuse,

543
00:31:59,840 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 2: like thing strikes again and again and again. It's a

544
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: complete misunderstanding of what that pattern is.

545
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: Psychologically, Yeah, it did seem like she was using every

546
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: domestic violence myths and trope and exploiting that. And I

547
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 1: don't know if that was purposeful or that was really

548
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: her own biases and her own misunderstandings. I've spent so

549
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:25,080
Speaker 1: much of my life trying to like figure out what

550
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: her motivations were, because it does feel very personal. But

551
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 1: from what I've seen, because I've been advocating for my

552
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: sister publicly brings a lot of other people to me.

553
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,320
Speaker 1: So a lot of other cases I'm privy to like

554
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,800
Speaker 1: seeing how they were handled, And it does seem across

555
00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: the board that this is the tactic that prosecutors use

556
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: because it's what wins cases. It's very easy, you know,

557
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: all of the cultural foundation is there to get a jury,

558
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,680
Speaker 1: to disbelieve women, to blame women. It just doesn't take

559
00:32:56,720 --> 00:33:01,240
Speaker 1: a lot to like, very burn engage women. It's very easy.

560
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 1: There's a playbook there, and Hanna really plugged into it

561
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 1: and it felt personal. But I can't know if it

562
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 1: was really her just doing her job to get a conviction.

563
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 1: I don't know.

564
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 2: Meanwhile, Nicki is doing time. Even that phrase doing time

565
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: is in this case so poignant. Time is passing. Michelle

566
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: and Nicky's mom suffers a stroke from which she never

567
00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: really recovers. Michelle's own health is suffering. I mean, how

568
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 2: could it not be. She's responsible for three kids who

569
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 2: are all in different states of being traumatized. Thankfully, Michelle

570
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: is blessed with next level executive functioning skills. She's effective

571
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 2: together with Nicky's loyal, supportive friends. They rally the community

572
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 2: and when bail is set at four hundred thousand dollars

573
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:00,479
Speaker 2: cash six hundred thousand collateral, raising, Nicki's bail becomes an

574
00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 2: around the clock job and they do it a testament

575
00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 2: to their amazing community. Nicki is released on bail and

576
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:13,840
Speaker 2: here is where another kind of extraordinary human enters the picture.

577
00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 2: A well known child therapist named doctor Crenshaw.

578
00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:23,280
Speaker 1: So Sarah the therapist and Laurie the landlord both worked

579
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 1: with doctor Crenshaw. He does teynotes all over the world

580
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 1: and is very renowned in play therapy and just an

581
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 1: incredible human with a wealth of knowledge. And everyone was

582
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: pointing us towards him, so Sarah and Laurie pulled him

583
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 1: in and he was just giving us advice as a person.

584
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: We weren't paying him or anything. He just sat with

585
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: us and gave us advice. And one of the first

586
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 1: things he told us is that children can handle the

587
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: truth much better than they can handle the mystery, because

588
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,800
Speaker 1: they are not stupid, and they're going to take the

589
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,440
Speaker 1: temperature of the room and figure out something's wrong. And

590
00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: if you lie or you hide things, they are going

591
00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: to put a story to it that is often much

592
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,680
Speaker 1: worse than what is actually going on, and that story

593
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: will often involve blaming themselves. So he encouraged us to

594
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: be age appropriate. I mean, no one could really guide

595
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: me on Okay, well, what's an age appropriate way to

596
00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 1: say their mom killed their dad? What? So? I mean,

597
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: there really isn't really a very age appropriate way to

598
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 1: say that, but to answer truthfully when they ask, and

599
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: that when they're ready for the information, they'll ask for it.

600
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 1: You don't have to overload them with information that it's

601
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: going to be hard for them to process. Just answer

602
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: their questions as they come, as truthfully and as age

603
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: appropriately as you can. And that really was our north

604
00:35:51,239 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: star as we were figuring out how to talk to

605
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: the kids about this. He also said that it's crucial

606
00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: for Ben and Fey to be able to trust the

607
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,160
Speaker 1: grown ups around them, and if they get the sense

608
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,399
Speaker 1: that we are lying to them, it is just fundamentally

609
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:15,920
Speaker 1: damaging for their attachment and their sense of safety in

610
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 1: the world. And at that time Ben had been screaming,

611
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: he's four at the time, screaming for us to tell

612
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: him the truth, where is his mom? Because we didn't

613
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: know like, should we say she's in jail, should we

614
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: say she's away? Like what's the language? So we just

615
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: kind of weren't giving him a clear answer, and I

616
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: was very worried by that, because I was worried the

617
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:40,560
Speaker 1: damage was already done as far as him trusting us.

618
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets.

619
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,720
Speaker 2: Michelle and Nicki's mom passes away in January of twenty nineteen.

620
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: Nicki's trial is set to start in April. In the

621
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 2: months in between these two major family events, Michelle is

622
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 2: still trying to put all the pieces together of Nicky's life,

623
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 2: all the while trying to do right by three traumatized

624
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:19,320
Speaker 2: kids and grieve the loss of her mother. Because Michelle

625
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 2: is now deeply ensconced in the world of child psychology

626
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:25,839
Speaker 2: as she's been trying to apply it to Noah, Ben

627
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,439
Speaker 2: and Fay, she begins to think more and more about

628
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 2: the questions that were never asked in their own childhood,

629
00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:38,880
Speaker 2: and so now in adulthood she does. She asked Nicki

630
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 2: about the sexual abuse she'd been through with their uncle.

631
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:46,680
Speaker 2: What did Uncle Buche say to you, Michelle asks her sister,

632
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 2: And what was it that made you think Mom wouldn't

633
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:50,279
Speaker 2: believe you.

634
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,320
Speaker 1: I couldn't imagine a world where Noah or Ben or

635
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:57,759
Speaker 1: Fay would get hurt as much as Niki was hurt

636
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: and not come to me for that idea that they

637
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 1: would hold that for me was so scary, and I

638
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,719
Speaker 1: didn't want to blame Nicki and say, like, why didn't

639
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 1: you just say something? But I wanted to understand the

640
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: psychology what was really holding her back. And Niki very

641
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,680
Speaker 1: plainly said I did tell her. She didn't remember exactly

642
00:38:16,719 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 1: what she said, but she knows it was hard for

643
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,319
Speaker 1: her to say. She remembers exactly where they were in

644
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 1: the backyard, and she remembers my mom's initial response was

645
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: to tell her the story of the Boyant christ Wolf

646
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 1: and to be careful because people wouldn't believe her, which

647
00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: you know, was absolutely devastating for me, because this whole time,

648
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,479
Speaker 1: I kept thinking Hannah wasn't the first person to say

649
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: they won't believe you, or her attorneys. Wasn't even Chris

650
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,400
Speaker 1: saying they won't believe you. It was butch who was

651
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 1: the one saying they won't believe you. To me, he

652
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:54,120
Speaker 1: was the original villain that implanted this idea in her

653
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,279
Speaker 1: that no one would believe her. So then you know,

654
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: in the middle of my grief that my mom had

655
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:01,279
Speaker 1: just passed away, and I still had all of these

656
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,720
Speaker 1: conflicting feelings about feeling angry at her but also compassionate

657
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:10,680
Speaker 1: for her, and the grief was just so big that

658
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 1: to then get this information that that original voice was

659
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: my mom's was crushing.

660
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: Nicki is offered a plea deal, but of course, a

661
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 2: plea deal means pleading guilty in order to receive a

662
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 2: reduced sentence. Michelle learns that this is often the case

663
00:39:26,760 --> 00:39:30,839
Speaker 2: in the criminal justice system. Trials are time consuming, expensive

664
00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: and risky. A deal is often considered the most practical

665
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: solution by the prosecutors. But there are a whole bunch

666
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 2: of things wrong with this picture. First, it will still

667
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,480
Speaker 2: mean a significant number of years in prison away from

668
00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 2: Nicki's young kids. Second, it will mean she will forever

669
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 2: be someone who's guilty of murder. And third, once a

670
00:39:54,239 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: deal is accepted, it cannot ever be appealed. Nicki decides

671
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: not to take the deal. Her trial is set for

672
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:07,319
Speaker 2: three weeks later. The community is in an uproar. They

673
00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: form the Nicole Atamando Defense Committee. Many of whom attend

674
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 2: the trial each day, along with journalists from local media.

675
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 2: Nicki takes the stand in her own defense and does

676
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,360
Speaker 2: a remarkable job, something that seems almost impossible because of

677
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:29,600
Speaker 2: the trauma she's endured. She is strong, powerful, and eloquent.

678
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 2: But when the verdict is handed down, it's a guilty verdict,

679
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 2: which carries with it a sentence of a minimum of

680
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 2: fifteen years to life. This is the worst day, worse

681
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:48,080
Speaker 2: than the knock on the door, Worse than Michelle hearing

682
00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 2: her young nephew say that everything has been taken from him, everything,

683
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 2: his father, his mother, his home, his whole life. Five

684
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 2: months later, because it's possible that Nicki's case should have

685
00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 2: fallen under the protection of the Domestic Violence Survivors Justice Act,

686
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 2: the family is hopeful that the judge will take this

687
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: into account in his sentencing. But things do not get

688
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: better if such a thing is possible. They get worse,

689
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 2: and Niki is sentenced to nineteen years to life.

690
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:29,160
Speaker 1: It's important to know that the judge was given a

691
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:34,280
Speaker 1: lot of evidence. Of that evidence, Hanna, the prosecutor really

692
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:36,840
Speaker 1: tried to get a lot of it suppressed. As you know,

693
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: that's a prosecutor's job, I suppose, and he agreed to

694
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: suppress it. But he saw the screenshots of the porn

695
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 1: sites and how it was linked to Chris, and all

696
00:41:47,760 --> 00:41:50,839
Speaker 1: of the reports that Nicki made that named Chris, and

697
00:41:51,160 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 1: he saw all of it. He also was the bureau

698
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 1: chief in the District Attorney's office in Duchess while Niki

699
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: was being circulated as a VIC, so for all sorts

700
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 1: of reasons, he was very embedded in this Duchess County

701
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,600
Speaker 1: system and we thought he would use the law. It

702
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 1: was a brand new law that was signed into law

703
00:42:15,880 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: right after Nicki's conviction, and it was a law that

704
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:24,279
Speaker 1: took ten years to get passed, mostly because it was

705
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: opposed by the District Attorney Association and you know, people

706
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: who thought women would use it as an excuse, like

707
00:42:33,040 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 1: the abuse excuse they say, so they wouldn't pass it.

708
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 1: But all it really does is give judges a lower

709
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:45,240
Speaker 1: sentencing structure if you think that or if it's proven

710
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 1: that the crime committed is connected to domestic violence. So

711
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:54,080
Speaker 1: in Nicky's case, when she was convicted, the lowest was

712
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 1: fifteen years to life. Under the law, the lowest could

713
00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: be five years and the highest would be fifty team

714
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:05,359
Speaker 1: with no life. So I mean, it's very significant. And

715
00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:09,359
Speaker 1: the reason that it passed finally was that it gave

716
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:12,719
Speaker 1: judges discretion. Judges really did not want their hands tied.

717
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 1: They didn't want to be told what to do. So

718
00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:18,800
Speaker 1: the judge had discretion and he chose not to apply

719
00:43:18,840 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 1: the law. And it was devastating because it was the

720
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: proof that the system was not going to believe her.

721
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 2: Nikki's story goes from being of local to national interest.

722
00:43:33,040 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 2: News outlets pick it up and people from all over

723
00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,879
Speaker 2: the country become involved. It's a precarious time for our

724
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 2: country and for our world. Remember we're in twenty twenty.

725
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 1: At first, it's impossible to separate it from like the

726
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: cultural context of what was happening in the world, Like

727
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: when this first happened, when the shooting happened, it was

728
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,319
Speaker 1: right when the Me Too movement broke, and there was

729
00:43:57,360 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: just more organizing in general as far as the women's movement,

730
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, everything that happened in twenty sixteen, and there

731
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:06,319
Speaker 1: was just more of an attitude of organizing at least

732
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 1: where we were that we were able to tap into.

733
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: And then when she was sentenced, we're now in COVID

734
00:44:13,480 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 1: and divesting violence rates are skyrocketing. They were already skyrocketing.

735
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: It's a silent epidemic everywhere, but COVID was especially dangerous

736
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: time and people were really paying attention. And also the

737
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 1: judge put some things on the record, like her verdict

738
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 1: was very unfair, and that got more people involved. But

739
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:39,280
Speaker 1: it was really her sentencing when the judge very publicly

740
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: said he didn't believe her and used phrases like, you know,

741
00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 1: he thought she reluctantly consented to the abuse, which just

742
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:53,319
Speaker 1: shows a fundamental misunderstanding of consent. And he said that

743
00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 1: the motive for the killing is that Niki's a broken person,

744
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: which really activated a lot of people. They're like words

745
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: of abusers, and I think that did draw a lot

746
00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,520
Speaker 1: of attention to the case. And you know, she had

747
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: a change dot org that got six hundred thousand signatures,

748
00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 1: like very quickly, and we as a committee organized just

749
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 1: relentlessly around the appeal, and then we did more around clemency.

750
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:27,919
Speaker 1: We were hoping Governor Hokeel would give Nikki clemency. But yeah,

751
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: we definitely activated a huge movement, you know, not even

752
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 1: in the country, like around the world.

753
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 2: So then the case is appealed.

754
00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, the case is appealed by different attorneys than the

755
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: trial attorneys. It was the first case that this Appellate

756
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:51,480
Speaker 1: Department decided on this new Domestic Violence Survivor's Justice Act,

757
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:55,680
Speaker 1: and they decided that she should have been sentenced under it.

758
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 1: They could have said there's a mistrial because there was

759
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: so much misconduct on the prosecutor, but then that would

760
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: have just made another trial happen in front of the

761
00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: same judge. They also could have said that the trial

762
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:12,880
Speaker 1: judge leads to resentence her, which is insane because he

763
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: would have just given her the max of fifteen years.

764
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 1: So the Appellate Corps was pretty kind in resentencing her themselves,

765
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,479
Speaker 1: and they gave her seven and a half years, which

766
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:24,759
Speaker 1: to me, I think is still way too much for

767
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:28,479
Speaker 1: someone who's defending their life from their abuser, but much

768
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 1: better than nineteen years to life.

769
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,800
Speaker 2: Nikki's sentence was reduced to seven and a half years,

770
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 2: including time served. She's home now. She was released from

771
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:44,760
Speaker 2: prison in January of twenty twenty four. While she served

772
00:46:44,800 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 2: out her time, she became involved in a nonprofit program

773
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 2: called Puppies Behind Bars, and she spent her time raising

774
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 2: service dogs for wounded vets and law enforcement.

775
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: So the day after she was released, we close not

776
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: a house, just the way the world worked, like the

777
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:06,239
Speaker 1: timing of it all. So we have a house now

778
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,400
Speaker 1: where we all live together. My dad lives in like

779
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: a basement apartment area, and then the rest of us

780
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 1: live in the upstairs and all the kids have their

781
00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: own rooms, and my son's at high school and Ben

782
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 1: is going into middle school and Fays the last one

783
00:47:23,360 --> 00:47:25,880
Speaker 1: in elementary school. So like, you know, they're nine and

784
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: eleven now. They were two and four when this happened,

785
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 1: and we have been so therapeutically supported throughout this that

786
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: everything is as smooth and good as it possibly can be.

787
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: The kids, you know, it took a lot to maintain

788
00:47:42,120 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 1: connection to Nicki in prison, but we did it, and

789
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: I think that paid off because they still have a

790
00:47:48,280 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: bond and you know, Niki can put them to sleep,

791
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 1: and she went to Ben's orchestra concert for the first

792
00:47:54,840 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 1: time yesterday and got to be there for Fay's dance

793
00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:01,719
Speaker 1: competitions and all of these things that she missed she's

794
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: now able to experience. And it's still surreal. It's been,

795
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 1: you know, but like five months that she's been home,

796
00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: it feels kind of like forever, but also it's still

797
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: very surreal. Even just to be able to text her

798
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: is like very surreal. So we're all really enjoying our time.

799
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: And also the layers of trauma that she endured, everything

800
00:48:24,120 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: she went through with Chris and everything that happened in

801
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,359
Speaker 1: the courtroom. I didn't really understand when the people say

802
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,200
Speaker 1: like they're suing for like emotional distress. I didn't really

803
00:48:33,200 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: get it until I watched what happened with Nikki, and

804
00:48:37,080 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 1: just having your identity decimated and your story told in

805
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:46,399
Speaker 1: ways it didn't happen so publicly. That is something she's

806
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 1: healing from being institutionalized and being property of a state

807
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: for so long. You know what that's done to her psychologically.

808
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:57,840
Speaker 1: There's just so much that she is only beginning to

809
00:48:57,880 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 1: heal from, and some days are really really hard for her.

810
00:49:02,719 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 1: But she's in therapy and she's doing everything less she

811
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,000
Speaker 1: can do, and she's doing it really courageously. But it's

812
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,400
Speaker 1: definitely not all rainbows and butterflies, you know.

813
00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 2: Here's Michelle reading one last passage from Dear Sister, a

814
00:49:21,520 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 2: letter Nicki wrote to her during her last days in prison.

815
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:31,520
Speaker 1: Dear sister. A few hours after I received my appellate decision,

816
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:34,320
Speaker 1: I was walking up the hill to METS at six pm.

817
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 1: A big, bright yellow butterfly landed next to me, and

818
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: I stopped walking. Even when the officer yelled at amando,

819
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 1: what's the hold up? I just pointed it was so beautiful.

820
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: Two more inmates and the officer stopped next to me,

821
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,000
Speaker 1: looking down at the butterfly, whose wing was half missing.

822
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: Not a small tear, a whole chunk gone. We watched

823
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:00,000
Speaker 1: her lift off, fly in circles, and delicately land again.

824
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:04,520
Speaker 1: Oh look she's broken, one of them said. I shook

825
00:50:04,560 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: my head. She's not broken. I said, look, she's still flying.

826
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,440
Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Mollie's Acre is

827
00:50:28,480 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer.

828
00:50:32,880 --> 00:50:34,879
Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share,

829
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear

830
00:50:37,760 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight

831
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:45,359
Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also

832
00:50:45,480 --> 00:50:50,319
Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd

833
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast,

834
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance.

835
00:51:15,520 --> 00:51:19,759
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

836
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.