1
00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:05,680
Speaker 1: Emily, I, like, I think all medical doctors am a

2
00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:11,160
Speaker 1: completely horrible patient. I am pretty sure I've had a

3
00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: rotator cuff tear for like eight months and I've done

4
00:00:14,240 --> 00:00:15,520
Speaker 1: absolutely nothing about it.

5
00:00:16,920 --> 00:00:19,000
Speaker 2: Okay, I am sorry, we need to say more. So

6
00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:21,800
Speaker 2: what were you doing? Were you doing something that men

7
00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:23,920
Speaker 2: in their forty should not be doing? Like sports?

8
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:27,280
Speaker 1: Yep, yep. I was trying to get active and healthy,

9
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:31,600
Speaker 1: and I was lifting weights. I was bench pressing, and

10
00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:33,159
Speaker 1: I was, you know, bulking up.

11
00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,680
Speaker 2: Wait, no, for reals, you were you were bench pressing?

12
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, but don't worry. I'd taken my creatine

13
00:00:39,760 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: future fined foreshadowing. I'd taken my creatine and I was

14
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:52,560
Speaker 1: adding weight and something happened and now I can't lift

15
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,360
Speaker 1: my left arm above my head. And okay, that's fine.

16
00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:57,200
Speaker 1: These things happen.

17
00:00:57,600 --> 00:00:58,280
Speaker 2: That's not fine.

18
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 1: But okay, I'm just sitting here realizing, because it's getting

19
00:01:01,960 --> 00:01:04,240
Speaker 1: into golf season, I need to swing a golf club again,

20
00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 1: and it hurts, And I'm like, you know, I probably

21
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:08,119
Speaker 1: should have seen a doctor about this.

22
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,000
Speaker 2: And what are you planning to do about it? Which will?

23
00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:13,920
Speaker 2: Have you been watching wellness influencers because they must have ideas.

24
00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:15,840
Speaker 1: They have lots of ideas, and I think we're going

25
00:01:15,880 --> 00:01:18,840
Speaker 1: to talk about one of those ideas today because we're

26
00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,560
Speaker 1: talking about stem cell therapy. But you know what, I'm

27
00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,440
Speaker 1: actually going to do nothing. That's correct, I'm going to

28
00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:26,000
Speaker 1: do nothing.

29
00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:29,040
Speaker 2: I have a suggestion for you actually, as a person

30
00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,720
Speaker 2: who has recently injured their hamstring, I have been getting

31
00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:37,679
Speaker 2: a thing called shockwave therapy, where someone puts a shocker

32
00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:43,720
Speaker 2: on your injured part and the placebo effect makes it better.

33
00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:46,800
Speaker 2: And I would really really recommend it.

34
00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:48,919
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the placebo effect.

35
00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,160
Speaker 2: The placebo effect is great, but how much does it cost?

36
00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:51,760
Speaker 1: That's the question.

37
00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,080
Speaker 2: Well, okay, it's about seventy five dollars for each placebo effect,

38
00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:56,880
Speaker 2: and you need like four of them for the placibo

39
00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,680
Speaker 2: effect to really get going, so it's not free. But

40
00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:04,080
Speaker 2: I have been running totally fine since the placebo effect

41
00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:04,560
Speaker 2: is kicked in.

42
00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 1: I'm probably going to do nothing.

43
00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,600
Speaker 2: I'm Emily Aster, I'm an economist and a data expert.

44
00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,240
Speaker 1: And I'm Harry Wilson. I'm a medical doctor.

45
00:02:14,520 --> 00:02:18,120
Speaker 2: It's Thursday, March twenty sixth, twenty twenty six, and this

46
00:02:18,200 --> 00:02:19,600
Speaker 2: is wellness.

47
00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:23,040
Speaker 1: Actually, because you're getting a staggering amount of health and

48
00:02:23,080 --> 00:02:27,080
Speaker 1: wellness information nowadays from every source imaginable, and some of

49
00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:28,639
Speaker 1: it is awesome and.

50
00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 2: Some of it is well actually both Fortunately we're both

51
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 2: people who know how to read studies, how to parse

52
00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,480
Speaker 2: the data, and can tell you what's worth thinking about

53
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 2: and what you can safely ignore.

54
00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:43,880
Speaker 1: But before we dig in, a note that this podcast

55
00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,520
Speaker 1: is for educational purposes and should not be construed as

56
00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,799
Speaker 1: medical advice. We don't know your unique situation, so talk

57
00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:51,840
Speaker 1: to your doctor for personal health decisions.

58
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,520
Speaker 2: This week, we're asking what's the deal with stem cell therapy.

59
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,560
Speaker 2: Harry and I will give the official smash or pass,

60
00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 2: and then we'll get to your question of the week.

61
00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,040
Speaker 2: But first let's do the health news roundup. After the break.

62
00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,880
Speaker 1: And we are back with the health news of the week. Emily,

63
00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,000
Speaker 1: there's a new Netflix series that's coming out that is

64
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,359
Speaker 1: talking all about lead poisoning, something we probably don't talk

65
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:32,000
Speaker 1: about enough. Have you seen this?

66
00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:35,520
Speaker 2: I haven't seen it. I was watching the Netflix documentary

67
00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 2: on microplastics, but this is next on my list of

68
00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 2: things to be afraid of from Netflix. I think this

69
00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:46,600
Speaker 2: documentary is about lead poisoning in the nineteen seventies in Poland.

70
00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 2: And I think it's really interesting in part because in

71
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:52,840
Speaker 2: the current moment, I get enormous number of questions from

72
00:03:52,840 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 2: people about lead, because we are constantly seeing these headlines

73
00:03:57,600 --> 00:03:59,680
Speaker 2: that are like, there's lead in your baby food, there's

74
00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,680
Speaker 2: lead and you're you know, or a ring, there's lead

75
00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:05,880
Speaker 2: in this and that. And what's so interesting is that

76
00:04:05,960 --> 00:04:09,280
Speaker 2: the current levels of lead exposure that like our kids

77
00:04:09,320 --> 00:04:13,200
Speaker 2: have are so so much lower than the levels of

78
00:04:13,240 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 2: exposure that we had, right yeah.

79
00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:21,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, like literally you and me, our generation. The main

80
00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 1: source of lead in the United States used to be

81
00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:29,280
Speaker 1: inhalation from leaded gasoline, and the use of leaded gasoline

82
00:04:29,279 --> 00:04:33,080
Speaker 1: peaked in the late nineteen seventies, just like when we

83
00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:36,320
Speaker 1: were getting born, leading our generation to have the highest

84
00:04:36,920 --> 00:04:39,560
Speaker 1: levels of blood lead. In fact, there's an interesting study

85
00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,279
Speaker 1: the threshold for blood lead and babies everyone gets checked

86
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:47,480
Speaker 1: is five what are the units nanograms, lead, micrograms, permil leader.

87
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:50,320
Speaker 2: Five lad points, five lead points, farge blood.

88
00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: Points my units and they there's a study that looked

89
00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 1: at the percentage of kids who like have levels below that,

90
00:04:57,000 --> 00:04:59,240
Speaker 1: like the kids who were good they're good lead levels

91
00:04:59,560 --> 00:05:02,040
Speaker 1: And you see the graph from like the nineteen fifties

92
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,200
Speaker 1: and it's like forty or fifty percent have good and

93
00:05:04,200 --> 00:05:07,920
Speaker 1: then it goes through us and it's zero, literally zero

94
00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,839
Speaker 1: from like nineteen seventy five to nineteen eighty five. And

95
00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,840
Speaker 1: now it's back up. I mean still not one hundred

96
00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:15,440
Speaker 1: percent obviously, but it's we definitely got hit hard.

97
00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think it is worth remembering. So this,

98
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,080
Speaker 2: this documentary I suspect is quite scary. And it certainly

99
00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 2: is true that high levels of lead exposure like these

100
00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,800
Speaker 2: kids had in the Poland in the nineteen seventies, and

101
00:05:26,360 --> 00:05:29,000
Speaker 2: for example, like kids were exposed to in flint when

102
00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 2: there was lead in the water, that can be very dangerous.

103
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,000
Speaker 2: But actually some lead exposure is okay, Like a small amount.

104
00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:38,520
Speaker 2: Your kid's body can process that. And so you know,

105
00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,880
Speaker 2: it's one of these things where you want to hold like, actually,

106
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,359
Speaker 2: things are so much better than they once were, even though,

107
00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:48,160
Speaker 2: of course lead is not good for your cognitive performance,

108
00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 2: and we can test that's why, you know, think about

109
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,719
Speaker 2: how much more successful we would have been. Oh well,

110
00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:58,000
Speaker 2: one can only imagine better luck next time. All right,

111
00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: let's talk about stress and and cancer. So a lot

112
00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,560
Speaker 2: of people think that stress causes cancer, but maybe no,

113
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 2: say more.

114
00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:11,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, really interesting new study came out and you're right.

115
00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,680
Speaker 1: Surveys suggest that fifty percent of the public believe that

116
00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,960
Speaker 1: stress is a cancer risk factor, right, Like chronically stressed

117
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:20,599
Speaker 1: doctors think this as well. I will tell you I

118
00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: have conversations. We all have stories of like the guy

119
00:06:24,600 --> 00:06:26,400
Speaker 1: you know who went through a messy divorce and then

120
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,080
Speaker 1: like a few years later he has cancer, or you

121
00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:31,880
Speaker 1: know the like stressed out woman who gets a varying

122
00:06:31,880 --> 00:06:35,200
Speaker 1: cancer at a young age. Like, we construct these narratives

123
00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,280
Speaker 1: and it's definitely in there. But a new study says, nope,

124
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: not really. This is a study that was a meta analysis,

125
00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:46,200
Speaker 1: but an individual data meta analysis. So they had individual

126
00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,760
Speaker 1: level data on four hundred and twenty two thousand people

127
00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,440
Speaker 1: of whom like thirty five thousand ended up developing cancer,

128
00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,599
Speaker 1: and they had psychosocial markers on all of them including

129
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,719
Speaker 1: chronic stress, neuroticism, death of a loved one in the

130
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,880
Speaker 1: past year, like iety of stressors, divorce, relationship status, and

131
00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,400
Speaker 1: overall there was no link between those things and cancer

132
00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:12,640
Speaker 1: provided you accounted for age, which is like a real

133
00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:15,480
Speaker 1: clue here, Like the thing is the biggest risk factor

134
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:19,080
Speaker 1: for cancer is age. That's it's not a modifiable risk factor,

135
00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:21,400
Speaker 1: but it is the largest risk factor. And all the

136
00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:23,680
Speaker 1: like crappy stuff that happens to us in life like

137
00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:26,800
Speaker 1: tends to happen more as we get older, we get divorced,

138
00:07:26,800 --> 00:07:29,160
Speaker 1: we lose loved ones, like all those stresses kind of

139
00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:31,600
Speaker 1: add up, and so of course we think that it's

140
00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:33,600
Speaker 1: the stress that led to the cancer. But the truth is,

141
00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,840
Speaker 1: it's just like getting older is stressful, and also getting

142
00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,160
Speaker 1: older leads to cancer. There was one exception, which is

143
00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:42,760
Speaker 1: that relationship status and loss of a loved one did

144
00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,920
Speaker 1: seem to increase the risk of future lung and smoking

145
00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:52,120
Speaker 1: related cancers, but once they adjust for smoking status, that

146
00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,200
Speaker 1: basically went away. So it's not that the stress causes

147
00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,480
Speaker 1: the cancer, but stress might lead you to behaviors like

148
00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,240
Speaker 1: smoking or drinking that actually do cause cancer. So I

149
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,559
Speaker 1: mean there's a way to get from stress to cancer.

150
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,840
Speaker 1: But it's not just like people will say, like, oh,

151
00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:06,880
Speaker 1: your cortisol levels are high, and.

152
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:10,120
Speaker 2: Your cortisol levels the discussion we need to do a

153
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:12,120
Speaker 2: whole thing on cortosol because think there's so much in

154
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,400
Speaker 2: this sort of like keep your cortosol down like, when

155
00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,040
Speaker 2: you wake up in the morning your cortosol's high. You

156
00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 2: need to stand outside on your bare feet to lower

157
00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:18,920
Speaker 2: your cortosol.

158
00:08:19,040 --> 00:08:22,240
Speaker 1: So it's not the cortisolt, it's the Smoking's not don't smoke.

159
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not the cortasoul. It's the smoking. That's like

160
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:28,240
Speaker 2: a that's a good takeaway from this entire podcast. Keep

161
00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:28,720
Speaker 2: it in mind.

162
00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:33,160
Speaker 1: A bit of good news here that I saw that

163
00:08:33,200 --> 00:08:36,960
Speaker 1: I thought you would like. Emily, the large insurance company

164
00:08:37,040 --> 00:08:44,320
Speaker 1: United Healthcare is starting to cover doulas for births. It's

165
00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 1: rare that we get to see an insurance company doing

166
00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,640
Speaker 1: something that seems to benefit their members, but here we are.

167
00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,920
Speaker 2: What do you think I was so excited about this,

168
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:59,840
Speaker 2: Perry so as background, I am like an enormous doula proponent.

169
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:04,160
Speaker 2: It is something that I think everybody should have in

170
00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,400
Speaker 2: their birth. We have a ton of data suggesting that

171
00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:13,280
Speaker 2: doulas are beneficial for all kinds of birth outcomes, lowering

172
00:09:13,440 --> 00:09:17,200
Speaker 2: c section rates, improving people's experience of birth. They can

173
00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,040
Speaker 2: be helpful even if you are having a sea section.

174
00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:24,600
Speaker 2: Like duelers are just totally great, and not everybody has

175
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,760
Speaker 2: them because they cost money and so seeing insurers start

176
00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:32,760
Speaker 2: to cover these is totally awesome. This United move follows

177
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:35,560
Speaker 2: on actually a number of state medicaid programs starting to

178
00:09:35,640 --> 00:09:40,079
Speaker 2: cover doulas as part of Medicaid, which is even better

179
00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,600
Speaker 2: because it's reaching those vulnerable people. So that is totally great.

180
00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,480
Speaker 2: I will say that you teed this up as like,

181
00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:50,040
Speaker 2: isn't it great that this company is doing something nice

182
00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,560
Speaker 2: for their members? This is something nice for their members. However,

183
00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,720
Speaker 2: the reason they are doing this is because dulas pay

184
00:09:56,720 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 2: for themselves because actually the reduction in say ce section

185
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:06,160
Speaker 2: rates or use of other interventions actually makes the berth cheaper,

186
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:08,800
Speaker 2: and so duelos are not that expensive. If you pay

187
00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,360
Speaker 2: for a doula and then you have a reduction in

188
00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:14,040
Speaker 2: the c section rate, you pay much less on net

189
00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:17,120
Speaker 2: because people have to say ce sections are expensives, more

190
00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,640
Speaker 2: time in the hospital and so on. So actually this

191
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 2: is just insurance companies saving themselves money. But since it's

192
00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:26,600
Speaker 2: good for people, I'm still a fan, all right, so.

193
00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:31,360
Speaker 1: Win when but United Healthcare compliment withdrawn officially.

194
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,640
Speaker 2: Well compliment, thank you for seeing that.

195
00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:41,680
Speaker 1: Yes, okay, compliments, the bottom line sometimes aligns. That's it

196
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,720
Speaker 1: for the health news of the week after the break,

197
00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,000
Speaker 1: what's the deal with stem cells?

198
00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,560
Speaker 2: All right, Perry? So stem cells. I was really excited

199
00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:57,920
Speaker 2: to learn about this. Actually, unlike some of the stuff

200
00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:59,640
Speaker 2: we talk about, this is something that I didn't know

201
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:02,400
Speaker 2: that much about coming into and then I found an

202
00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 2: amazing clip on Instagram that told me everything I needed

203
00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:07,840
Speaker 2: to know. And so we're just going to listen to

204
00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,439
Speaker 2: it and then we'll be able to stop the episode early.

205
00:11:11,040 --> 00:11:13,400
Speaker 1: Okay, hitting play injuries.

206
00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:16,160
Speaker 3: Anti aging stem cells might be the closest thing we

207
00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,640
Speaker 3: have to the fountain of youth. Why is this because

208
00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,240
Speaker 3: stem cells are very very special cells. They're called plury

209
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,439
Speaker 3: potent cells, which means they have the ability to morph

210
00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,520
Speaker 3: into any other type of cells. It's not your baby

211
00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:30,080
Speaker 3: that doesn't know what it wants to be. When it

212
00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:32,400
Speaker 3: grows up. You put it in the proximity of other

213
00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 3: tissue and it decides to become that tissue.

214
00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,560
Speaker 1: Stems are the future, guys.

215
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:40,640
Speaker 3: Lots of good anti aging functional medicine practitioners are skilled

216
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,160
Speaker 3: using these and topical applications to rate you are improve

217
00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,960
Speaker 3: fine lines and wrinkles, thick in the skin, improve collagen,

218
00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 3: elastin and fibrine, and even reduce joint pain. And discomfort

219
00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:53,839
Speaker 3: and accelerate. So real one of those people walking around

220
00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,240
Speaker 3: with knee, hip, shoulder rotator cuff or ankle pay rotator

221
00:11:57,400 --> 00:11:59,800
Speaker 3: thinking about surgery or it's become chronic. Talk to your

222
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,960
Speaker 3: phoneunctional medicine practitioner about the using the stem cells to

223
00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:06,000
Speaker 3: accelerate your rate of healing.

224
00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:10,440
Speaker 2: So are we done? It's kind of like you weren't

225
00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,000
Speaker 2: totally sold on all of them. I did hear a

226
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 2: thing about the rotator cuff. I was like, we're going

227
00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:15,560
Speaker 2: to fix that.

228
00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,840
Speaker 1: So you know, in our prior episodes, when I looked

229
00:12:19,840 --> 00:12:23,200
Speaker 1: through Instagram, I will say there was often a nice mix,

230
00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,920
Speaker 1: like when we talked about peptides. Yes, there were people

231
00:12:25,920 --> 00:12:27,440
Speaker 1: who were like this is a miracle, but then there

232
00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,040
Speaker 1: are these people that were like, oh no, be careful

233
00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 1: and they can be contaminated and you don't know where

234
00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,920
Speaker 1: they're coming from. And it was like there was some balance,

235
00:12:34,240 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 1: even if it was inappropriate balance. As I was looking

236
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: through this regenerative medicine stem cell space, I've never seen

237
00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,480
Speaker 1: it be more wrong. Like everyone is on the side

238
00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,360
Speaker 1: of like this is the miracle, this is the fountain

239
00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:49,120
Speaker 1: of youth, and there's almost no one sitting on the

240
00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:53,120
Speaker 1: other side, and when you actually look into the data

241
00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:57,160
Speaker 1: as we're going to talk about, it's like there's almost

242
00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,040
Speaker 1: nothing there. So I'm excited. I'm like, I'm a little

243
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,640
Speaker 1: I'm a little piled up. I am amped up about

244
00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 1: this because there's a lot of a lot of misinformation

245
00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:06,320
Speaker 1: out there.

246
00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,439
Speaker 2: Okay, So I want to start with it not misinformation,

247
00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,600
Speaker 2: because I think often in these spaces, like it's not

248
00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:16,679
Speaker 2: that you don't go immediately to vampire or facial. You

249
00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:22,120
Speaker 2: start with something real. A stem cell is a a

250
00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:26,040
Speaker 2: cell that has some flexibility relative to other cells. Okay,

251
00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:28,000
Speaker 2: So when we talk about stem cells, you want to

252
00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,280
Speaker 2: think about that's the stem and then it can branch out.

253
00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 2: That's why it's it's stem. It's a stem to branch

254
00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,000
Speaker 2: into multiple different kinds of cells like a plant. Yes,

255
00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:41,800
Speaker 2: and there are medical uses for stem cells. Yes, And

256
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:44,680
Speaker 2: so let's like sort of table stakes start there with

257
00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 2: like what it actually is the potential promise of stem

258
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,280
Speaker 2: cells in real medical applications.

259
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:54,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they can be miraculous in real medicine applications.

260
00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,160
Speaker 1: But let me can I like walk you through one, Yeah,

261
00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,000
Speaker 1: like sycle cell disease. Okay, Yeah, cell disease a genetic

262
00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,000
Speaker 1: condition that is a genetic mutation hemoglobin, which is the

263
00:14:05,000 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 1: protein in red blood cells that causes them to deform

264
00:14:08,320 --> 00:14:11,920
Speaker 1: and sickle and get stuck in your blood cells, causing

265
00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:16,319
Speaker 1: immense pain, clotting, and other problems. So very severe disease,

266
00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 1: generally untreatable until recently and thanks to stem cells. So

267
00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,280
Speaker 1: what there are two FDA approved therapies for sickle cell

268
00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,920
Speaker 1: disease that are curative now and they both come from

269
00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:29,560
Speaker 1: stem cells. And here's how it works. If you're a

270
00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:32,720
Speaker 1: sickle cell patient, you go in, you get your bone

271
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,520
Speaker 1: marrow harvested from your hip. That hurts a little bit.

272
00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:39,160
Speaker 1: That bone marrow is taken to a lab. The cells

273
00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,120
Speaker 1: are sorted based on what type of cells they are,

274
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,200
Speaker 1: based on molecular characteristics on their surface. So the stem

275
00:14:45,280 --> 00:14:48,440
Speaker 1: cells are pulled out by like very fancy sorting machines

276
00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,280
Speaker 1: that use all sorts of tags. Those cells are then cultured.

277
00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:55,640
Speaker 1: They are grown up to be millions and millions of

278
00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: fold higher in number than they were. Those grown up

279
00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:03,400
Speaker 1: cells then get gene edited, so the two different therapies.

280
00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: One uses a viral vector to insert a new hemoglobin

281
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,840
Speaker 1: gene into those cells. Like a functional hemoglobin gene. Very cool.

282
00:15:10,120 --> 00:15:13,600
Speaker 1: The other uses crisper cast nine to edit a gene

283
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,360
Speaker 1: that leads to more fetal hemoglobin in the cell, which

284
00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,520
Speaker 1: doesn't sickle. Either way, you have these non sickling cells.

285
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:22,320
Speaker 1: You're not done yet. You go back to the patient.

286
00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 1: You give the patient incredibly high dose chemotherapy to destroy

287
00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 1: all the other cells in their bone marrow. So they've

288
00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:34,920
Speaker 1: got no now, no white blood cells, virtually real system,

289
00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,560
Speaker 1: no immune system. They are in the hospital, in the hospital,

290
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,920
Speaker 1: very dangerous situation. Once the bone marrow is cleared out,

291
00:15:43,120 --> 00:15:46,280
Speaker 1: you inject those grown up and gene edited stem cells.

292
00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,360
Speaker 1: You cross your fingers and you hope they ingraft, and

293
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,560
Speaker 1: then they start to grow and divide and reconstitute the

294
00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 1: immune system, the red blood cells, the platelets, everything else

295
00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:57,760
Speaker 1: you need. And if you make it through that, the

296
00:15:57,800 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 1: patient no longer has sickle cell disease. It is amazing

297
00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,720
Speaker 1: therapy and nothing at all like what people are getting

298
00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 1: in a regenerative medicine clinic. But it is a miracle.

299
00:16:10,440 --> 00:16:13,200
Speaker 2: And the reason that this stem cell makes this possible

300
00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:17,280
Speaker 2: is because these stem cells have the capacity to turn

301
00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,800
Speaker 2: into many different kinds of cells.

302
00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 1: Correct many different but not all different, and that influencer

303
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 1: up top use the term plury potent. You'll see that

304
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,720
Speaker 1: a lot online. There are very few plury potent stem cells.

305
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,640
Speaker 1: They live in embryos because they need to be able

306
00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,600
Speaker 1: to turn like a cluster of cells into a human

307
00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:39,080
Speaker 1: so they can turn into any type of cell. But

308
00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 1: the stem cells that are harvested from adults, even for

309
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,359
Speaker 1: bone marrow transplant and stuff like this, are called multipotent.

310
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:46,800
Speaker 1: They can turn into some cells, so bone marrow drive

311
00:16:46,840 --> 00:16:49,720
Speaker 1: stem cells can turn into white cells and red cells

312
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,400
Speaker 1: and platelets, and that's about it. That's still cool. That's

313
00:16:53,440 --> 00:16:55,720
Speaker 1: three different kinds of cells, but it's not every type

314
00:16:55,720 --> 00:16:56,040
Speaker 1: of cell.

315
00:16:56,680 --> 00:16:59,120
Speaker 2: And so the other thing that people will be familiar

316
00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,120
Speaker 2: with I think before sort of in the real medicine

317
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 2: space here is the discussion of embryonic stem cells. So

318
00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,640
Speaker 2: an embryonic cell cell is truly pluripotent. It can from

319
00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:12,280
Speaker 2: the beginning turned into any kind of cell. You start

320
00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:16,960
Speaker 2: with two cells, four cells, eight cells, and that embryos

321
00:17:17,280 --> 00:17:20,720
Speaker 2: can turn into anything. There is a lot of controversy

322
00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,359
Speaker 2: which I just want to put aside around through the

323
00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:26,520
Speaker 2: use of embryonic stem cells. But are there medical circumstances

324
00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:30,119
Speaker 2: where embryonic stem cells are in fact used or is

325
00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:33,920
Speaker 2: that still we're not quite there on making anything out

326
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:34,159
Speaker 2: of that.

327
00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:39,000
Speaker 1: There's no approved uses for them. They are used for research,

328
00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:42,080
Speaker 1: but that is actually quite restricted, at least in this

329
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:46,920
Speaker 1: country because of the potential ethical issues that you implied.

330
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,560
Speaker 1: So really you're not getting that. The real distinction of

331
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:52,240
Speaker 1: what kind of stem cells you get in medicine is

332
00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,200
Speaker 1: whether they're your stem cells, which are called autologous stem cells,

333
00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,679
Speaker 1: or someone else's, which are called allogenetic stem cells. So

334
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,280
Speaker 1: if you get a bone marrow transplant from someone else,

335
00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 1: a stranger, a relative, you can have someone else's stem

336
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,480
Speaker 1: cells in your body. But all of these are therapies,

337
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,520
Speaker 1: as I describe, which are like incredibly intense, you know,

338
00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:15,320
Speaker 1: hospital level stuff and cost millions of dollars, right, okay.

339
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 2: And part of the reason I think this is the

340
00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,159
Speaker 2: sort of worth pausing on because I think it it

341
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 2: will link back into why the things that are happening

342
00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:30,600
Speaker 2: in these regenerative medicine clinics are such scammy disasters. If

343
00:18:30,640 --> 00:18:34,159
Speaker 2: we think about you know, what's hard about that sickle

344
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,439
Speaker 2: cell case that you described, It is in part that

345
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,200
Speaker 2: when you harvest the stem cells from the bone marrow.

346
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,479
Speaker 2: Almost none of the cells are stem cells, right, You

347
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,680
Speaker 2: take a ton of cells, so many cells, and then

348
00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:51,479
Speaker 2: you get like a tiny number of maybe like you know,

349
00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 2: out of an entire harvest, you like four or three,

350
00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:58,320
Speaker 2: I mean, very small numbers of cells. And then you

351
00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:00,000
Speaker 2: have to grow them. And that the sort of whole

352
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,040
Speaker 2: process there is you grow them and you multiply them

353
00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:04,160
Speaker 2: and so on, and that is that takes a ton

354
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:05,360
Speaker 2: of time.

355
00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:07,000
Speaker 1: Time, expense, effort.

356
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's not like you just pick up a

357
00:19:09,359 --> 00:19:11,199
Speaker 2: bunch of cells and you know ninety five percent of

358
00:19:11,200 --> 00:19:13,960
Speaker 2: them or stem cells, and it's no problem to find exactly.

359
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,880
Speaker 1: So let's talk for a second about what happens in

360
00:19:16,920 --> 00:19:21,000
Speaker 1: a regenerative medicine clinic that's advertising stem cell therapy. What

361
00:19:21,040 --> 00:19:23,760
Speaker 1: they are not doing is harvesting your bone marrow and

362
00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,640
Speaker 1: sending it to a lab and growing it up and

363
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: gene editing it and stuff like that. Of course they're

364
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: not because the FDA says that if you manipulate the

365
00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,919
Speaker 1: cells of someone more than minimally, that it is not

366
00:19:36,080 --> 00:19:39,960
Speaker 1: legal to administer it to them. Again, it then becomes

367
00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:42,159
Speaker 1: a drug or a device or something that needs to

368
00:19:42,160 --> 00:19:45,520
Speaker 1: be regulated, but it is not illegal to take someone's

369
00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:48,280
Speaker 1: cells out of their body and really put them somewhere

370
00:19:48,280 --> 00:19:49,880
Speaker 1: else in the body. You are allowed to do that.

371
00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:51,960
Speaker 1: Hence vampire facials, okay.

372
00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:54,560
Speaker 2: And also if fat grafting that's how you get like

373
00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 2: fat from your ass into your face.

374
00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,680
Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely, And I think FDA kind of appropriately is like, well,

375
00:20:00,920 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, it's your stuff, and like we're not going

376
00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:06,639
Speaker 1: to regulate like whether you can take that or not,

377
00:20:06,760 --> 00:20:09,480
Speaker 1: and that's probably fine. So in a stem cell clinic,

378
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,320
Speaker 1: what they do is they take out either some bone

379
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,560
Speaker 1: marrow from your hip, which hurts a little bit, but

380
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 1: more often it's fat. They do a little liposuction, they

381
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:21,800
Speaker 1: get about like one hundred c sees of fat, and

382
00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:25,400
Speaker 1: remember they can't do anything to it, so all they

383
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,199
Speaker 1: can do is they take that fat and they centrifuge

384
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,960
Speaker 1: it in the back room for about fifteen minutes or so,

385
00:20:31,480 --> 00:20:33,800
Speaker 1: and they pipe that off, they suck off the top

386
00:20:33,880 --> 00:20:37,040
Speaker 1: layer of cells, and then they inject that back into

387
00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,960
Speaker 1: you and that's really all they can do. And you

388
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 1: alluded to how inefficient this is in terms of in

389
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,680
Speaker 1: terms of harvesting, and I think the most damning paper

390
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:51,840
Speaker 1: on This was from Science Advances in twenty twenty four.

391
00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,159
Speaker 1: So this was a research group that did this. They

392
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,520
Speaker 1: sucked out cells from people's fat. They sucked out bone marrow,

393
00:20:57,760 --> 00:20:59,320
Speaker 1: and they spun them just like they do in the

394
00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,720
Speaker 1: regenerative meta and clinics, and then they analyzed them to

395
00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 1: see how many stem cells were there to give you

396
00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,679
Speaker 1: a sense for like those therapies we talked about, like

397
00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 1: for sickle cell and stuff, you want about one to

398
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:14,560
Speaker 1: two million cells per kilogram of body weight. That's the dose.

399
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,199
Speaker 1: So seventy five kilogram man, you're talking, you know, seventy

400
00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 1: five hundred million stem cells is what's necessary for treatment.

401
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 1: In this study, when they sucked out the bone marrow sample,

402
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,440
Speaker 1: they found three stem cells, not three million, three three

403
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,480
Speaker 1: stem cells in fat. One point seven percent of the

404
00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:37,560
Speaker 1: cells were stem cells. But they had concerned The researchers

405
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,359
Speaker 1: said that there were a lot of false positives because

406
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,720
Speaker 1: they they were very they didn't look similar to each other.

407
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:44,920
Speaker 1: There was a lot of differences, and when they did

408
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:49,760
Speaker 1: more advanced testing they found actually zero percent of the

409
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:54,399
Speaker 1: cells they found were stem cells when they came from fat.

410
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 1: And so what we have in these regenerative medicine clinics

411
00:21:57,920 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 1: is attaching a real scientific term to make something sound

412
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,639
Speaker 1: fancier than what it is. It's like, it's it's like

413
00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 1: if I invented like quantum cola, right, and I'm like,

414
00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: this is this cola is quantum somehow, Right, you just

415
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,439
Speaker 1: like slap stem cell on it for marketing purposes, but

416
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: really you're just kind of sucking out fat and reinjecting

417
00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,359
Speaker 1: fat somewhere else, or sucking out bone maron reinjecting it somewhere.

418
00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's it's worse than the

419
00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,440
Speaker 2: coal example, because at least you put a label on

420
00:22:27,480 --> 00:22:29,960
Speaker 2: your cola. At least you're drinking a coke and like

421
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 2: it's doing something. You're getting whatever you were hoping to

422
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 2: get out of out of the coke. This is not

423
00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 2: a procedure that does well. We can talk about what

424
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: the evidence says, but there's no reason to think that

425
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,400
Speaker 2: taking out your fat and putting back in your fat

426
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 2: or whatever would have any particular positive impact on you

427
00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 2: in any direction. Right.

428
00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 1: We'll get to that as we kind of dig into

429
00:22:50,320 --> 00:22:53,720
Speaker 1: the individual use cases. But I think we should say

430
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:58,040
Speaker 1: that just because there's no stem cells or very few

431
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,320
Speaker 1: in the stuff you're injecting doesn't mean it's the same

432
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 1: as injecting nothing. There's other stuff in there, right, Like

433
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:05,200
Speaker 1: if I suck out your bone marrow, there's other cells

434
00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 1: in there, there's proteins in there, there's you know, various

435
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 1: molecules of various types. So it's certainly plausible that something

436
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: could be happening. But you know, the prices people are

437
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,959
Speaker 1: charging for this stuff are like akin to you know,

438
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:24,440
Speaker 1: getting a bone marrow transplant or something like that. Here

439
00:23:24,520 --> 00:23:28,400
Speaker 1: actually have a clip of an influencer couple who spent

440
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:33,199
Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars to get stem cell injections overseas in

441
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,080
Speaker 1: Panama City, Panama. Take a listen.

442
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,240
Speaker 4: If you're new into my world, my name is Jess.

443
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 4: My husband and I run an eight figure coaching company,

444
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:41,520
Speaker 4: and we're borderline.

445
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 2: Obsessed with biohacking.

446
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:45,400
Speaker 4: We found the stem Cell Institute listening to a Joe

447
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 4: Rogan episode where Mel Gibson talked about his experience getting

448
00:23:49,000 --> 00:23:51,639
Speaker 4: stem cells and so flying down to Panama City for

449
00:23:51,680 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 4: a full service package and getting injections for a week

450
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 4: sounded like our idea of a good time.

451
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's that's a lot of money.

452
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, well it demands a premium because people hear stem

453
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: cell and they think like cool science, amazing. I just

454
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 1: saw an article in the New York Times that stem

455
00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: cells cured sickle cell disease, Like, of course it can

456
00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 1: cure my knee osteoarthritis.

457
00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,240
Speaker 2: Okay. So that gets us to a place where we

458
00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: sort of say, these regenerative medicine clinics, there's kind of

459
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 2: it's it's not stem cells. So then the question is like, okay,

460
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 2: but is it is there any evidence that these kind

461
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 2: of things, that whatever is happening there works in some

462
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:33,399
Speaker 2: other sense, whether it's because of the three stem cells

463
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:36,520
Speaker 2: or because of something of something else. And that's where

464
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,720
Speaker 2: we need not just the kind of theory for why

465
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 2: this might or might i'll work, but actual data. So

466
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 2: let's start with knees. I love studying knees because people

467
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 2: have a lot of knee problems, tons of knee problems,

468
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: and knees are a great example of the placebo effect,

469
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 2: my favorite effect. There's like constant evidence that did we

470
00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 2: do to fix your knee actually does nothing right? Like

471
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:04,159
Speaker 2: many of these studies where it's like we did sham

472
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: knee surgery, we cut into the wrong knee. We cut

473
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: into the knee and did nothing. And it turns out

474
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 2: if you just cut into someone's knee and do nothing,

475
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,119
Speaker 2: they feel better, right, Like, oh, tons of stuff happened,

476
00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:16,960
Speaker 2: and so it's like a great Knees are like a

477
00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: great example of the placebo effect, and we see some

478
00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 2: of that here too, where different kinds of treatment in

479
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,879
Speaker 2: a sort of total vacuum of a control group, it

480
00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 2: actually does look like, oh, this is so great. But

481
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:33,440
Speaker 2: of course anything you did to people's knees, you know,

482
00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: waving your hands over them, saying this shaman words, would

483
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: affect your knee, because that's how knees are.

484
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,120
Speaker 1: It's subjective. The best study on this, in my opinion,

485
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,879
Speaker 1: was in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. That's a

486
00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: very very good journal, very good journaly my favorites, Oh good.

487
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: A randomized trial of one hundred and twenty patients with

488
00:25:51,440 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 1: knee osteoarthritis. And this was a blinded, placebo controlled design.

489
00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:00,360
Speaker 1: So they had two syringes. One was fat drived stems.

490
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: But again, like I'm putting stem cells in CLIs.

491
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 2: It's some fat that they took Snetrifewgod fat maybe has

492
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 2: themselves don't know, could be anything.

493
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,119
Speaker 1: And then the other was just sailing, just straight up

494
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:14,160
Speaker 1: salt water into the knee and there was no difference

495
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 1: in knee pain, which was their primary outcome at any

496
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:19,560
Speaker 1: time point through two years of follow up. So I

497
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: actually followed them for two years. This is like the

498
00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,880
Speaker 1: best quality data you're probably going to get. By the way,

499
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: as you pointed out, everyone got better, everyone's knees improved. Yeah,

500
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: but saline costs three cents and stem cell fat costs

501
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars like people are charging. I mean, maybe

502
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:39,320
Speaker 1: less than that.

503
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 2: But also, just to be clear, it's not that the

504
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 2: saline helped, it's just the placebo effect help. And maybe

505
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,639
Speaker 2: you need the sailing, like maybe you need to do

506
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: something to get the that's on the placebo effect. Of

507
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 2: course you think you did something, but fundamentally this is

508
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 2: something that would have improved if you did nothing exactly exactly.

509
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,640
Speaker 1: Meta analyses, which are combinations of trials, sort of confirm

510
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,800
Speaker 1: this gen role thing, which which says, for example, there

511
00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 1: was a meta analysis from the Orthopedic Journal of Sports Medicine,

512
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 1: not quite as good as the British Journal, but that's fine.

513
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,120
Speaker 1: Meta analyses never get published in the highest tier journals.

514
00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: But basically finding yes, stem cell injections or whatever you

515
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:18,760
Speaker 1: want to call them, do improve things, but no advantage

516
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,640
Speaker 1: over other things like highaluronic acid, which is another injection

517
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,680
Speaker 1: that often gets put in the knees also with limited evidence.

518
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,280
Speaker 2: That's the penis injection.

519
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,800
Speaker 1: Oh, that's what they were using in the Olympics.

520
00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: Jumpers were putting in in their penises in the Olympics. See,

521
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 2: you got to listen to all the episodes of this

522
00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,439
Speaker 2: podcast to go back to know what hiuronic acid is.

523
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:40,960
Speaker 2: But if you did, you would know it has many

524
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,880
Speaker 2: uses bake fixing your knee and making your penis big

525
00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 2: so you're ski jumping suit is looser and you can

526
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: go farther.

527
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: There you go.

528
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: Do you think they would fix the rotator cuff? It might.

529
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,679
Speaker 1: I'd feel more comfortable I think injecting high uronic acid

530
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 1: into my rotator cuff than in my fat cells. Probably.

531
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,120
Speaker 2: I thought you were going to say injecting and grey penis. Okay,

532
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 2: let's move on.

533
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: I haven't ruled that out yet.

534
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,800
Speaker 2: No, Okay, So these are one example. But I think

535
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 2: what is true in these studies is that at least

536
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 2: in these medical study settings, there wasn't any downside to Again,

537
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: this is like studies being done by actual doctors in

538
00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: actual doctoring environments. I think the piece that is more

539
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:32,800
Speaker 2: worrisome is all of the kind of wellness face, et

540
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: cetera stuff. And so there my read is, there is

541
00:28:37,160 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 2: again no evidence that anything about this would improve your face. Yeah,

542
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 2: no good evidence.

543
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: Things aren't going to improve your face because stem cells

544
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 1: are there doing things. When you inject stuff into your face,

545
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 1: things do kind of get better, right Like, even if

546
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 1: I inject saline into my wrinkles and stuff, at least

547
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: temporarily until the sailing gets absorbed, you know, things fill

548
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: out a little bit. And if I inject something that

549
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: has some mild inflammatory properties like the stuff you might

550
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: get from you know, fat or bone marrow, aspir it,

551
00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: you might get some localized swelling tissue edema as we

552
00:29:23,320 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: call it, that can potentially you know, fill in some

553
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:30,280
Speaker 1: wrinkles and stuff like that. But again, we have ways

554
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 1: to do this. Like, one of the challenges in a

555
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 1: space like this is, especially if you're listening to wellness

556
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: influencers online, if you trust everything you hear on a

557
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: place like Instagram, and you want to get rid of

558
00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 1: wrinkles on your face. You have about three thousand different options,

559
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 1: of which stem cell regeneration, regenitive therapy clinics is just one.

560
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: We've already talked about, red light therapy. There's so much

561
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 1: out there that people need a filter to sort of

562
00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 1: decide like how, you know, how would I possibly know

563
00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: what actually works? And that filter is called science, and

564
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,680
Speaker 1: that's fundamentally what this podcast is about, right. It's like

565
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: it's the only way we have to move from anecdote

566
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: to reality and along those lines, because I think anecdote

567
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: is so powerful and for all the wrong reasons. I

568
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 1: want to play you a clip of Mel Gibson talking

569
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: about his father's experience with stem cell therapy, because I

570
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: think we need to address this head on, Like we

571
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: can show all the data that shows out it doesn't

572
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: look work any better than placebo. But you hear something

573
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: like this online and it sticks in your head. So

574
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 1: let's play that for a second.

575
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,600
Speaker 5: He's ninety two and he was doing all the old

576
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 5: man stuff. You know, his hip was killing him and

577
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 5: he was like he had multiple problems. I mean, he

578
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 5: wasn't in good shape at all.

579
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 6: You know, his kidneys were in trouble. His heart was

580
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 6: in trouble. And when you're ninety two and you have

581
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 6: multi organ failure, you're basically running on and so you

582
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 6: put these day zero young healthy cells that kind of

583
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 6: restarts everything.

584
00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:09,080
Speaker 1: So what was his response to this IVY treatment.

585
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:10,960
Speaker 5: It was like he got a new lease of life,

586
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,560
Speaker 5: fixed all his inflammation and pain, and he started walking again,

587
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 5: and his kidneys were good, and his heart he had

588
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 5: a prolapse valves in there and they healed, and his

589
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 5: cognitive powers improved, his eyesight improved.

590
00:31:26,720 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 2: WHOA, Okay, yeah, I mean I think listening to that,

591
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 2: it's so compelling, right, It's like this is a person,

592
00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: Mel Gibson, who we seem to trust for some reason,

593
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: and what he's saying sounds amazing. I mean, it sounds

594
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,240
Speaker 2: like we basically it's it's too good to be true.

595
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: But you know, but I think it connects. This is

596
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: why this you using the phrasing stem cells and talking

597
00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: about stem cells, I think is so much of where

598
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: the misinformation comes in here, because it's it like has

599
00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: this aura of you know, well, these are cells from

600
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 2: a young this is a young cell. You know, this

601
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 2: is a cell from the beginning and so we put

602
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 2: it in and it can do everything. It regrows your valve,

603
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: it regrows your brain, it regrows your kidneys. You know,

604
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:21,560
Speaker 2: it just goes all around your body and makes all

605
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: the pieces young again. And of course that is totally

606
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: not how stem cells work, but it sounds like it could.

607
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 2: You know, it sort of has its like I guess

608
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: it could. I guess it could be like that. And

609
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: and again it sort of like getting back to the

610
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 2: sales pitch. If you said, you know, we're gonna injact

611
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: some fat into your face, Yeah, okay, hey Jackson, fatten

612
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 2: in my face? Like I like, yeah, that's that's the thing.

613
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: I can imagine how that would smooth stuff out and

614
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: plump it up. If you say we're gonna injact stem

615
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 2: cells in your face, that feels like wow that then

616
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:57,840
Speaker 2: you're gonna make me younger. You're not just gonna like

617
00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: make my face fatter with the fat, you what in

618
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 2: my face? You're actually going to make the face younger

619
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: with the stem cells. And I think that's what people

620
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 2: are paying for. And that's the grift. That clip is

621
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:08,120
Speaker 2: the grift exactly.

622
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 1: And you know, not to say I have no idea

623
00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 1: if mel Gibson makes money off stem cells or anything

624
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 1: like that, and people really do believe this, but you know,

625
00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,880
Speaker 1: anecdote isn't evidence. And when you are telling stories, and

626
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,720
Speaker 1: humans are wonderful storytellers, you can manipulate a lot of things. Right.

627
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 1: You even heard them saying like, oh yeah, wasn't he

628
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: in a wheelchair and like, oh yeah, he could barely

629
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,920
Speaker 1: talk and stuff like that, and it's really and then

630
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 1: all of a sudden he could. And all you have

631
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: to do is kind of take that baseline state pre

632
00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 1: stem cell and be like, you know, kind of exaggerate

633
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: how sick the person was, and then you take the

634
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: state post stem cell and kind of exaggerate how well

635
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: they became, and you make that delta look really huge,

636
00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 1: and it's just it's not reliable. I want to point out,

637
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 1: because we've hit on this a few times, that stem

638
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: cells are not magic. Adult derived stem cells can only

639
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:00,440
Speaker 1: turn into a few different cell types, and I will

640
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: tell you what they are. So the cells derived from

641
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: your bone marrow can only make blood cells that is

642
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: as potent as there. They can't make brain cells, they

643
00:34:09,640 --> 00:34:12,920
Speaker 1: can't make car filt cells. There are stem cells in

644
00:34:12,960 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 1: your skin that make skin cells, Fine, no one's harvesting

645
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: those because it's quite painful to take out chunks of

646
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: your skin. And then there's mesenchymal stem cells, which is

647
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: what most of these regenerative medicine clinics are doing, and

648
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 1: they're capable of differentiating into bone cells, cartilage, muscle cells,

649
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: and fat. And that certainly sounds like a lot. And

650
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:36,839
Speaker 1: you know, if cartilage is something that you know, it's

651
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: particularly when we're talking about neiosty arthritis and things like that,

652
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: you can sort of say, oh, well, okay, yeah, cartilage,

653
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: but it's not everything. It doesn't you know, it's not

654
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,640
Speaker 1: going to fix your brain. We don't have stem cells

655
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 1: for that. And so I think if people just kind

656
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,279
Speaker 1: of know that there are just biological limitations to how

657
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 1: this could work. Because I said cartilage, let me just

658
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: point out that there have been relatively rigorous MRI studies

659
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 1: looking at cartilage thickness before and after stem cell injection

660
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 1: in the knees. It also looks similar to injection with

661
00:35:06,560 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: other things like hyaluronic acid, and there might be in

662
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: both cases about a millimeter of cartilage regeneration, probably by

663
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 1: just increasing blood flow to the area. Some influencers are

664
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 1: starting to be a little bit more honest about this,

665
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 1: So there's still a ton of misinformation, a ton of

666
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: like their magic they turn into whatever cell their next to.

667
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: Not true. In fact, very few stem cells do anything

668
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: when they're in the body in terms of differentiating further,

669
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:39,520
Speaker 1: they do release some cytokine, some small proteins that might

670
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 1: have immunomodulatory effects, so like either inducing inflammation or reducing inflammation.

671
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: So these cells do kind of have a talking effect,

672
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: like sort of talk to other cells. But we have

673
00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: lots of different ways, including like steroid injections if we

674
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,359
Speaker 1: want to tamp down the immune system. And so you'll

675
00:35:57,400 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: see some people who kind of acknowledge that it's not

676
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: just about magically turning into you know, a new heart

677
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 1: valve when you don't have a heart valve. But you

678
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:07,839
Speaker 1: still have to ask yourself, why am I paying these

679
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: ridiculous amounts when there are other ways to get the

680
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: same effect.

681
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you know, for me, this

682
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: is a I find this space really understandable, but such

683
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 2: a clear example of something we see in many of

684
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 2: these wellness cases where you take a sort of vague

685
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:31,840
Speaker 2: biological plausibility like that that comes a real good story

686
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,439
Speaker 2: and then kind of take it all the way down

687
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 2: the road into something which is which is crazy. You know,

688
00:36:38,719 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 2: they kind of go all the way from this kind

689
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:44,319
Speaker 2: of cure sicco selenemia under these like very very complicated

690
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 2: conditions into like, well that means it must be magic,

691
00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: and you know, here are all the things we're gonna

692
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 2: we're going to do with it, and it prays on.

693
00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 2: Of course, people's like desire for youth, and so much

694
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 2: of this is a kind of I want to look younger,

695
00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: I want to see younger. I want to be younger.

696
00:37:02,040 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: This is telling you, like, we're not just going to

697
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,880
Speaker 2: make you a look younger. This isn't botox. You know,

698
00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:08,800
Speaker 2: we're going to like put young cells in. We're actually

699
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 2: make you younger. And that's of course impossible, but very compelling.

700
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 1: If I could talk about the power of hope for

701
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,880
Speaker 1: a minute and get a little bit personal with my

702
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: own stem cell story. So a couple of years ago,

703
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 1: my mom was diagnosed with a very rare neurodegenerative condition

704
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: called multiple system atrophy. There's no treatment. It's kind of

705
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: a horrible neurologic condition where you just sort of like

706
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 1: gradually your body stops functioning. So I'm a doctor, I

707
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: run clinical trials. I'm a scientist. I have a lab here.

708
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:47,799
Speaker 1: So when she got that diagnosis, the first thing I

709
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,960
Speaker 1: did was go to clinical Trials dot gov and see,

710
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 1: you know, I knew there was no treatments, there's no

711
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: nothing approved. But I'm going to go to clinical Trials

712
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: dot Gov and I'm going to see what's out there,

713
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 1: like what are people testing right, Like, let's take a

714
00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: shot on something. And so I'm going through the filters

715
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: and what's actively recruiting and whatnot. And I see a

716
00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:12,719
Speaker 1: study of stem cell therapies for multiple system atrophy, and

717
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:15,399
Speaker 1: you know, these are trials that are like in the

718
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: it reads like it's in the medical space, right, it's

719
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,919
Speaker 1: going to be it's the sickle cell thing, not the

720
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:22,480
Speaker 1: regenerative medicine clinic thing. At least that's what I was thinking.

721
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: So I dig into this and I'm looking at the

722
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,839
Speaker 1: report on clinical Trials dot gov. And the first red

723
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 1: flag I had is that they have to list the

724
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 1: conditions that they're testing the stem cells for and including

725
00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: multiple system atrophy. Also listed in this protocol are traumatic

726
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 1: brain injury, stroke, progressive supernuclear palsy als, diabetic neuropathies, dementia,

727
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 1: frontotemporal dementia, Louis body disease, cognitive impairment, nervous system diseases

728
00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:58,919
Speaker 1: in general, Louis body variant of Alzheimer's disease. That's a

729
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: very broad protocol, right, Like, no one is testing that

730
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: many things.

731
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:05,760
Speaker 2: No one treatment is doing all of those things.

732
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,240
Speaker 1: And nor would you if you were like a company

733
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: trying to prove that your therapy worked, you would never

734
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: enroll that diverse group, right, You'd like test it on

735
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 1: one thing, so you know what's going on. I dig

736
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: in deeper and I see that this protocol has been

737
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 1: active at least since twenty sixteen and has never reported

738
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,560
Speaker 1: any results. So then I dig in to where this

739
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 1: is coming from, and it's being run out of the

740
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: clinic in Florida. I think it's called mdstem cells dot

741
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 1: com and it is a regenerative medicine clinic in Florida.

742
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: And all over their website they are saying, you know, oh,

743
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 1: we've got these clinical trials that are running to test

744
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 1: these different things. And you know, obviously people searching clinical desperate,

745
00:39:47,160 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: people like me searching clinical trials are clearly a source

746
00:39:49,920 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: of patients for them, But it still seemed odd to

747
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,280
Speaker 1: me because as like, well, how can they make money

748
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 1: on this? You can't charge people to participate in a

749
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: clinical trial. Well, they're charging people to participate in a

750
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,440
Speaker 1: clinical trial. So I found a news report talking about

751
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 1: this same clinic that said where someone pretended to call

752
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: so that they you know, like they secret chopped to

753
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: them basically, and we're told it would be about twenty

754
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 1: thousand dollars for one of these treatments, which again is

755
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: just like taking bone marrow out and they were going

756
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,800
Speaker 1: to inject it into your blood and into your nose

757
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: like that was the treatment. Twenty thousand dollars. The doctor

758
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: who ran this clinic I actually used to have a

759
00:40:30,600 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 1: license in Connecticut. That license was revoked by my state,

760
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: which is a good thing. But he is licensed to

761
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 1: practice in Florida because of course he is. And this

762
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:46,839
Speaker 1: I don't think anything made me angrier than this particular

763
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 1: experience in this space, and I'm trying not to let

764
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 1: it color my view of the entire like regenerative medicine

765
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 1: and stem cell industry. This is someone who's clearly praying

766
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,600
Speaker 1: on very desperately This isn't someone who has you know,

767
00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,319
Speaker 1: it's like, oh, I've got my knee hurts, Like maybe

768
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 1: I should try this injection. This is like my mom

769
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 1: is dying of an incurable disease. Should I give you

770
00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: twenty thousand dollars to you know, put some some fat

771
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 1: cells up her nose or whatever. But the fact is

772
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: these things live in the same space. And although you

773
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,560
Speaker 1: know he's promising a lot more than someone who says

774
00:41:17,600 --> 00:41:19,240
Speaker 1: we're going to do some injections and make your knee

775
00:41:19,239 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: feel better, people need to understand that these are for

776
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: profit enterprises and stem cell is a marketing term and

777
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: a powerful one.

778
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 2: And I think what is so tough also about that

779
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: story is imagine you were not a doctor who does research,

780
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:46,319
Speaker 2: and you've come across clinical trials dot com, which is

781
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: not some scammer site. Clinical trials dot Gov is, in

782
00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:52,360
Speaker 2: fact where people register their actual clinical trials. This is

783
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:57,680
Speaker 2: an actual government website. And people, how would you know

784
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: as a person that you're not going to be charge

785
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 2: of being a clipical trial That's like, that's true. You

786
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: know that because you're a doctor. I know that, but

787
00:42:04,640 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 2: people might not know that. You look at this, it's

788
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 2: on clinical trials, like go you go to this website,

789
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,360
Speaker 2: they tell you, like, in order to be in this trial,

790
00:42:10,360 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: it's twenty thousand dollars. And of course this seems official

791
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: because it is you know, it is has the word

792
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 2: stem cell and is listed on this government website. And

793
00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: I think it's an extreme example but also not an

794
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:27,040
Speaker 2: extreme example of where people are just there is real,

795
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 2: you know, real costs, especially because you know, in this

796
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: case maybe there isn't something else you can do, but

797
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 2: in many cases there is something else you can do.

798
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: People are being told, you know, you should get stem

799
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 2: cell therapy instead of chemotherapy, immunotherapy, something that might actually

800
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: address your problems. And so it is relative to some

801
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,560
Speaker 2: of the things we've talked about on this podcast. You know,

802
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 2: we talked about red light therapy, and you know, my

803
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: view is like that's a stupid scam, but like it's

804
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:55,760
Speaker 2: a stupid scam in the sense of like who cares

805
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 2: you bought a mask and like you put the mask

806
00:42:57,640 --> 00:42:59,959
Speaker 2: on and you think you feel better, but you don't.

807
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 2: This is like potentially very damaging and preying on people

808
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 2: who in some cases are really really desperate for answers.

809
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: And I will say there are a lot of very

810
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 2: bad things that can happen as a result of some

811
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 2: of these things. So there are many cases in which

812
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,919
Speaker 2: people going to some of these clinics have actually ended

813
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:25,320
Speaker 2: up with very very bad, dangerous outcomes. So there's a

814
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:27,839
Speaker 2: clinic in Florida in which a number of people were

815
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,320
Speaker 2: actually blinded after some stem cells were injected in their eyes.

816
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:34,879
Speaker 2: There are a lot of stories like that.

817
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: I saw that report. Also, I think it was done

818
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 1: under kind of a research protocol. And it's actually, like

819
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:43,719
Speaker 1: doing this podcast, I'm beginning to see this other side,

820
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 1: like this world of using research to get around the

821
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:51,439
Speaker 1: regulatory state. Right, Like I file research protocols because that's

822
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 1: my job, and like I do research. And this happened

823
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: with the peptides too, Right, It's like, how can we

824
00:43:56,719 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 1: inject these unapproved substances into people and like not be liable. Oh,

825
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 1: we call it research and we have them sign a

826
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,680
Speaker 1: consent form. And yet you know the purpose of research

827
00:44:06,920 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 1: is to create generalizable knowledge, right, to like benefit humankind,

828
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: to publish your results. That's one of the reasons why

829
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 1: it's unethical to charge participants to participate in a research project,

830
00:44:19,520 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 1: because they are giving you something, right, they are, they're

831
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 1: volunteering themselves to be you know, experimented on. It is

832
00:44:26,719 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: not medicine. You don't do research for curative intent. You

833
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 1: do research to find out whether something is curative or not.

834
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 1: And then once you prove it, then sure you can.

835
00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 1: You can sell it all you want. That's how capitalism works.

836
00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 1: But research isn't medicine. And yeah, that particular study with

837
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: the eyes, Like the dumbest thing you would never do

838
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 1: in a research study where you're injecting something into people's

839
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:53,200
Speaker 1: eyes is do both at the same time. Are you insane?

840
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:57,920
Speaker 1: Would of course only do one and then see what happens,

841
00:44:58,040 --> 00:45:01,000
Speaker 1: and then these women you know, are blind in both

842
00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:03,160
Speaker 1: eyes because it's a bad protocol.

843
00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 2: Okay, so we can do a smash or pass. But

844
00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:11,400
Speaker 2: I actually I want to pause here on what I

845
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,920
Speaker 2: think is the most important takeaway. So before we started

846
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 2: this episode, we kind of came at it with like,

847
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:18,960
Speaker 2: you know what, what do we want people to take away?

848
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 2: And I think that here is really quite important to

849
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 2: both of us that people take away that you should

850
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: not go to a stem cell clinic to do anything

851
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,360
Speaker 2: that that you know there are if you are a

852
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,279
Speaker 2: person with sickle cell anemia. It is of This is

853
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 2: of course a kind of therapy that you will be

854
00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 2: discussing with your doctor. But if you are thinking about

855
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,520
Speaker 2: using stem cells or some kind of stem cell clinic

856
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,560
Speaker 2: for something in your health, do not do that.

857
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're not getting stem cells. I mean, that's what

858
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: I want people to take home. It's like, there are

859
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,000
Speaker 1: ways to get stem cells. They generally happen in a hospital.

860
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: It's generally for people with cancer, sickle cell, very severe diseases.

861
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: These clinics say they're selling stem cells, they're not. They're

862
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: charging you too much, even if they're safe. You know,

863
00:46:07,120 --> 00:46:09,920
Speaker 1: what they're injecting is safe. They're charging you an arm

864
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:13,399
Speaker 1: and a leg for stuff that isn't really there.

865
00:46:14,160 --> 00:46:16,080
Speaker 2: Smash your pass stem cell therapy.

866
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm when it comes to regenerative medicine clinics, I'm

867
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:22,800
Speaker 1: a hard pass on this. How about you, Emily?

868
00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,880
Speaker 2: I am a hard pass. I accept for sickle cellingemium

869
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 2: and a few canclood cancers.

870
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Yes, right, real stem cells are great. It's just this

871
00:46:32,680 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 1: is fake.

872
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 2: All right. That's it for stem cells. So your mail

873
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 2: back Question of the week after the.

874
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 7: Break, Hi, Emily and Perry, this is Wade in Santa Fe.

875
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 7: I've read that taking magnesium can help you sleep better,

876
00:46:48,840 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 7: and I'm wondering if that's really true or is that

877
00:46:51,239 --> 00:46:53,520
Speaker 7: just more Internet wellness crop.

878
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 2: Thanks, I take magnesium for sleep, Perry.

879
00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: Oh okay, cool? What do you think?

880
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: So? I started taking this because I'm a perimenopausal woman,

881
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 2: and I read the evidence as suggesting it is possible

882
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,040
Speaker 2: that this could affect sleep in a positive way a

883
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 2: little bit. And I have a lot of self trackers,

884
00:47:16,840 --> 00:47:18,560
Speaker 2: and so I figured that I would try it and

885
00:47:18,600 --> 00:47:21,279
Speaker 2: I would see if it improved my sleep. So, I

886
00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:23,239
Speaker 2: don't know, do you think that it did based on

887
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: the data.

888
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:28,800
Speaker 1: I read the data the same way. I think there's,

889
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,240
Speaker 1: you know, evidence of modest benefit. We're talking like fifteen

890
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 1: to twenty minutes of increased sleep duration, a little lower

891
00:47:35,080 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: sleep latency, so falling asleep a little quicker. No large

892
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:40,880
Speaker 1: randomized trials. Yeah, but you get so much exercise, I

893
00:47:40,880 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 1: feel like you must sleep well. But then why are

894
00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 1: you taking magnesium? I'm going to say, yeah, I think

895
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,400
Speaker 1: it improved your sleep a little bit.

896
00:47:47,080 --> 00:47:50,800
Speaker 2: That is not correct. I am looking at my WHOOP

897
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 2: recovery analysis here on my phone, and it tells me

898
00:47:54,040 --> 00:47:57,719
Speaker 2: my magnesium supplement is plus one percent and it's not

899
00:47:57,840 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 2: statistically significant in contras has to do other things like

900
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 2: not drinking, which is a plus eight percent.

901
00:48:06,160 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would take magnesium, but I'm not going to

902
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:09,320
Speaker 1: give up alcohol.

903
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 2: Jeez, please'm be ridiculous. Yeah, I mean this feels to

904
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 2: me like something where there's no real downside. And if

905
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 2: you said, you know, I'm interested in trying it, I

906
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 2: can't see any reason people should not, and the data

907
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 2: is not large. I'm surprised we haven't seen larger randomized

908
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: trials on this, but I guess the point is that

909
00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:32,880
Speaker 2: it's no one would benefit from that because magnesium is

910
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,840
Speaker 2: a generic over the counter thing and so there's not

911
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:37,880
Speaker 2: a lot of incentive to run to run a trial.

912
00:48:38,480 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably why doctor hatput On. Don't overdose. Take

913
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: the recommended dose you can. There is magnesium toxicity at

914
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,000
Speaker 1: super high doses, so don't go crazy.

915
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 2: My dad asked me about this the other day, which

916
00:48:49,040 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 2: you know, tells me it's out in the zeitgeist, because

917
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: my father will read any fad and try to follow it.

918
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: So we'll see what he says.

919
00:48:57,280 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 1: Let us know.

920
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 2: Emily's dad, Hi, Dad, that's it for us today, stick

921
00:49:04,200 --> 00:49:06,440
Speaker 2: with us next week, when we will ask what's the

922
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:12,520
Speaker 2: deal with creating? Wellness Actually is produced in association with iHeartMedia.

923
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 2: Our senior producer is Tamar Avishai. Our executive producer at

924
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 2: iHeart is Jennifer Bassett. Our theme music is by Eric Deutsch,

925
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,120
Speaker 2: and our content is for educational purposes only.

926
00:49:23,800 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: If you like the show, help other people find us,

927
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 1: leave a rating and review on Apple Podcasts or your

928
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: podcatcher of choice and help us spread the word about

929
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:35,080
Speaker 1: the show. You can follow us on Instagram at Wellness

930
00:49:35,120 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 1: Actually pod and don't forget We want to hear from you.

931
00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:41,239
Speaker 1: Head over to Wellness Actually dot fm and leave us

932
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: a question for our mailbag or suggest a topic for

933
00:49:43,880 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: a future show.

934
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:47,760
Speaker 2: We'll let the influencers have the last word.

935
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:50,799
Speaker 1: You did the labor room surgery, no surger, wrap it

936
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:53,640
Speaker 1: out of full length rotator cuff tear okay, And they

937
00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:57,600
Speaker 1: used ex's homes and it was gone. The next MRI

938
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,600
Speaker 1: have the tear was gone. It just it goes. It

939
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:02,440
Speaker 1: just seals up.

940
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 5: Mhm