1
00:00:01,320 --> 00:00:04,640
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Wired to Hunt podcast, your guide to

2
00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,400
Speaker 1: the whitetail woods, presented by First Light, creating proven versatile

3
00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:13,399
Speaker 1: hunting apparel for the stand, saddle or blind. First Light

4
00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 1: Go Farther, Stay Longer, and now your host, Mark Kenyon,

5
00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:20,640
Speaker 1: Welcome to the.

6
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,919
Speaker 2: Wired to Hunt podcast. This week on the show, I'm

7
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:29,040
Speaker 2: joined by Thomas Milsna, a whitetail coach and habitat consultant

8
00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 2: from the Untamed Ambition, and we're going to be discussing

9
00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:36,800
Speaker 2: his unique approach to sustainable habitat management for deer and

10
00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:48,120
Speaker 2: other wildlife. All Right, welcome back to the Wired to

11
00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:51,200
Speaker 2: Hunt podcast, brought to you by First Light and their

12
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,320
Speaker 2: Camera for Conservation initiative. That means a portion of every

13
00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,600
Speaker 2: sale of First Light's whitetail camel pattern, which is specter,

14
00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,960
Speaker 2: a portion of everyone those sales is donated to the

15
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 2: National Deer Association, something I'm real proud of. And today's

16
00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 2: conversation is about conservation. With our guest Thomas Milsna, we

17
00:01:14,560 --> 00:01:18,000
Speaker 2: are getting back into habitat month the month of February.

18
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,319
Speaker 2: We've talked to Doug Durham, We've talked to Kyle Perry,

19
00:01:20,560 --> 00:01:24,360
Speaker 2: and today Thomas Milsna, who is a habitat consultant and

20
00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:28,560
Speaker 2: whitetail coach with the Untamed Ambition. You can learn more

21
00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:31,600
Speaker 2: about everything's got going on at the Untamed Ambition dot com.

22
00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:35,679
Speaker 2: He's got courses, he does consulting, he does videos, and

23
00:01:35,680 --> 00:01:37,720
Speaker 2: all sorts of different kinds of content of podcast.

24
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:41,199
Speaker 1: And Thomas is someone who's got.

25
00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,559
Speaker 2: A perspective on whitetail habitat management that I really appreciate.

26
00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:48,120
Speaker 2: He has a very holistic perspective, as you're going to

27
00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:51,800
Speaker 2: hear about here shortly. He looks at, you know, improving

28
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:55,520
Speaker 2: deer habitat not in a silo. It's not about what

29
00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:57,840
Speaker 2: can I do to make my deer hunting better, It's

30
00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,200
Speaker 2: what can I do to make this whole landscape better?

31
00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:03,520
Speaker 2: And by doing that, Thomas makes a really compelling case

32
00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,320
Speaker 2: that by doing that, it's going to make your dear healthier,

33
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,680
Speaker 2: it's going to make your deer hunting better, and it's

34
00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,160
Speaker 2: going to make every other link on that food chain

35
00:02:11,720 --> 00:02:16,960
Speaker 2: more healthy, sustainable, and long lasting. And that's something I

36
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,840
Speaker 2: think is pretty darn cool. I really enjoyed this conversation.

37
00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:23,280
Speaker 2: We get into a bunch of interesting topics. It's one

38
00:02:23,320 --> 00:02:25,560
Speaker 2: that I really think you're going to enjoy I think

39
00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:27,240
Speaker 2: you're all going to learn a lot from it. And

40
00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,720
Speaker 2: I don't think that I should beat around the bush

41
00:02:30,760 --> 00:02:32,400
Speaker 2: here too much longer. I think we should get to

42
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 2: this one because Thomas and I talked for a very

43
00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:36,640
Speaker 2: long time. It's a long podcast, but this one is

44
00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:38,880
Speaker 2: full of a whole lot of meat on the bone.

45
00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,600
Speaker 2: I really really like this one. So without further ado,

46
00:02:44,120 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 2: let's get to my conversation with Thomas Milsnup. He is

47
00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,120
Speaker 2: a trained wildlife biologist. He has an education in that

48
00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:55,320
Speaker 2: and he has real life applicable experience on the ground

49
00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,480
Speaker 2: doing this stuff. So you're gonna enjoy this one. Here

50
00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:05,760
Speaker 2: we go, all right, hear me on the show. I'm

51
00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:09,280
Speaker 2: joined by Thomas milsna Thomas. Welcome to the show.

52
00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:12,000
Speaker 3: Mark, good to see you, good to meet you, good

53
00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:12,840
Speaker 3: to chat a little bit.

54
00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,919
Speaker 2: Thank you. Yeah, I'm excited to have this conversation. You're

55
00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,560
Speaker 2: someone who I've had referred to me several times, and

56
00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,919
Speaker 2: you were in the back of my mind, and then

57
00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:27,200
Speaker 2: recently we kicked off this habitat month and I was

58
00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 2: trying to think of some folks that would fit into

59
00:03:31,360 --> 00:03:34,839
Speaker 2: a little bit of a sub lane within the white

60
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:38,240
Speaker 2: tail habitat management world that I'm particularly intrigued in. And

61
00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:41,480
Speaker 2: as I was doing that research and asking around and

62
00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,240
Speaker 2: thinking about things, your name popped up again and I

63
00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:45,960
Speaker 2: was like, oh, yes, this is a guy I need

64
00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,480
Speaker 2: to talk to. And I went to Instagram to reach

65
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,320
Speaker 2: out to you, and then I saw that you had

66
00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:52,240
Speaker 2: already reached out to me like a year or two

67
00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 2: ago about this very thing, and I completely missed it,

68
00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,520
Speaker 2: never responded. I felt horrible about that, So I appreciate

69
00:04:01,560 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 2: you being understanding of me leaving you unread and being

70
00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:07,440
Speaker 2: here to day to chat.

71
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it probably would have been worse if

72
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:13,680
Speaker 3: I saw that you read it and then didn't respond.

73
00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,000
Speaker 3: I could be forgiving. So it's not a big deal.

74
00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,960
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad. I'm glad we're chatting now. And you know,

75
00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:23,640
Speaker 2: as I mentioned, we're on this series this month of

76
00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:27,440
Speaker 2: February talking about habitat and I like to try to,

77
00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,320
Speaker 2: you know, whenever we do this kind of thing, I

78
00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,640
Speaker 2: like to explore all aspects of a particular topic, in

79
00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,320
Speaker 2: this case, habitat management. So I've talked to some folks

80
00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,080
Speaker 2: who you know, are very tactical with you know, how

81
00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:40,720
Speaker 2: do you put your food plots in this location and

82
00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:43,039
Speaker 2: your stand locations in this spot? And I've talked to

83
00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:46,000
Speaker 2: other people who are more thinking, you know, hey, how

84
00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 2: do we manage our oaks in relation to our this

85
00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 2: kind of timber, in relation to this kind of habitat?

86
00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:57,039
Speaker 2: And you came to mind as a great fit for

87
00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,880
Speaker 2: this conversation because, in particular, something I noticed on your website.

88
00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 2: A few things I noticed on your website, the Untamed

89
00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,760
Speaker 2: Ambition dot com. I'll paraphrase a few things here, but

90
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,239
Speaker 2: for one, I saw you say that hunters can save

91
00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,080
Speaker 2: the world by saving nature. I saw you say something

92
00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,600
Speaker 2: on the lines of the fact that hunters have the

93
00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,040
Speaker 2: potential to make a massive impact, a massive positive impact

94
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,440
Speaker 2: on the world by protecting wildlife habitat and promoting healthy

95
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,960
Speaker 2: native ecosystems. And I will quote you here. In turn,

96
00:05:32,240 --> 00:05:35,240
Speaker 2: that land will provide an abundance of opportunities for us

97
00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:37,800
Speaker 2: and our families to thrive, not just with deer and

98
00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:43,200
Speaker 2: hunting opportunities, but with other nutritious wild bounties, diverse income opportunities,

99
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,440
Speaker 2: and the all too often overlooked importance of clean air

100
00:05:46,800 --> 00:05:51,680
Speaker 2: and clean water for generations to come. So those are

101
00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:55,000
Speaker 2: some pretty bold statements to have on the website right

102
00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,440
Speaker 2: out the gate, Explain what do you mean by all this?

103
00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 2: Is that something that you lead when someone shows up

104
00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:05,400
Speaker 2: to the untamed ambition.

105
00:06:06,880 --> 00:06:09,440
Speaker 3: Well, let me back up a little bit and give

106
00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,360
Speaker 3: you kind of my two minute elevator pitch on how

107
00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:16,000
Speaker 3: I got to that point. Right. So, my background, I

108
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:19,119
Speaker 3: grew up on a farm, a relatively large dairy farm.

109
00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:22,480
Speaker 3: Actually you've probably been very close to it, because I'm

110
00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,279
Speaker 3: only about ten or twelve miles away from Doug Duran's

111
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:29,840
Speaker 3: farm in Burning County, Wisconsin. But so my background has

112
00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,280
Speaker 3: always been in land management. And then I actually went

113
00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:37,440
Speaker 3: to college for wildlife biology and natural resource management. In

114
00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:41,440
Speaker 3: a strange turn of events, I ended up changing my

115
00:06:42,080 --> 00:06:45,520
Speaker 3: career path. My father was injured in a farming accident.

116
00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,040
Speaker 3: I ended up transferring some credits. Long story short, I

117
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,960
Speaker 3: end up working for a trail camera company for ten years,

118
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,839
Speaker 3: and so instead of becoming a biologist, I worked with

119
00:06:55,880 --> 00:07:01,080
Speaker 3: biologists on the technology side. Fast forward, In due time,

120
00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:04,240
Speaker 3: I went back to pursuing my passion in biology and

121
00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,560
Speaker 3: natural resources. And my passion has always really been with

122
00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,560
Speaker 3: white tail hunting, love the allure of big bucks obviously

123
00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,120
Speaker 3: most of your listeners probably feel the same. But once

124
00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 3: I got into the consulting field, you know, thinking I'm

125
00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:22,400
Speaker 3: gonna come out, I'm going to show people my approach

126
00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,360
Speaker 3: to land management, you know, again from the things that

127
00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:28,920
Speaker 3: I've learned over the years and my education, and then

128
00:07:28,920 --> 00:07:33,240
Speaker 3: also my approach to targeting big mature books. Once I

129
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 3: got into that space, I was constantly presented with this

130
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:39,840
Speaker 3: question of how is the best way to do this?

131
00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:42,920
Speaker 3: What's the best way to do this? And it just

132
00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:45,760
Speaker 3: led me down a lot of rabbit holes. And I

133
00:07:45,840 --> 00:07:48,840
Speaker 3: like to read research papers. I like to dig into

134
00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,880
Speaker 3: a lot of different ways of you know, different perspectives,

135
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,600
Speaker 3: different ways of doing stuff, and ultimately the answers to

136
00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:00,200
Speaker 3: these questions on land management always came back to this

137
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,920
Speaker 3: more holistic approach. And then you add in the fact

138
00:08:04,000 --> 00:08:07,800
Speaker 3: of having kids, right, So that's really where this generational

139
00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:12,880
Speaker 3: sustainable thing comes in. Where I kind of shifted away

140
00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:17,880
Speaker 3: from what can I do right now to kill a deer,

141
00:08:18,400 --> 00:08:21,840
Speaker 3: you know, and therefore, what can I help my clients

142
00:08:21,880 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 3: do right now to kill a deer? To how do

143
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,280
Speaker 3: we set up a sustainable system to ensure that we

144
00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:30,880
Speaker 3: can not only kill big deer in the near future,

145
00:08:31,320 --> 00:08:34,520
Speaker 3: but ensure that we can kill big deer for generations

146
00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:40,760
Speaker 3: to come, and obviously protect all the resources that produce that,

147
00:08:40,920 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 3: you know, or that provide the ecosystem or environment that

148
00:08:44,120 --> 00:08:46,719
Speaker 3: grows big, healthy deer. That's kind of how I got

149
00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:52,080
Speaker 3: to that point. And the holistic approach, you know, the

150
00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 3: idea of holistic management is just the concept of managing

151
00:08:57,120 --> 00:08:59,920
Speaker 3: as a whole. So instead of going in and doing

152
00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:06,120
Speaker 3: things specifically for deer, which you know, i'll say outright

153
00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:08,360
Speaker 3: in my opinion, I think that this whole concept of

154
00:09:08,559 --> 00:09:12,480
Speaker 3: white tail land management is an overall net negative to

155
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,640
Speaker 3: the environment. And it wasn't that long ago that I

156
00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:17,560
Speaker 3: thought it was a really good idea. You know. Again,

157
00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:20,120
Speaker 3: this allure of oh what can I do to manipulate

158
00:09:20,240 --> 00:09:24,520
Speaker 3: habitat and focus specifically on deer, all of that's very,

159
00:09:24,640 --> 00:09:28,120
Speaker 3: very appealing, but at the end of the day, it's

160
00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:31,560
Speaker 3: very detrimental to the ecosystems that these animals live in.

161
00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,880
Speaker 3: So that's what kind of led me down that path.

162
00:09:33,920 --> 00:09:37,000
Speaker 3: And then you know, my background in general, growing up

163
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:41,320
Speaker 3: on a farm, seeing these you know, local communities that

164
00:09:41,360 --> 00:09:44,640
Speaker 3: were thriving back in the day, you know, and there's

165
00:09:44,679 --> 00:09:47,760
Speaker 3: a lot of rural activity, and then seeing them kind

166
00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,800
Speaker 3: of dwindle and the habitat loss that came with the

167
00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:56,640
Speaker 3: growing expansion of these farms and obviously urban development. It

168
00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,679
Speaker 3: really made me take a step back and go, oh, man, like,

169
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,280
Speaker 3: you know, so how much has changed in the last

170
00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:06,520
Speaker 3: twenty years of my life, and if we continue this trajectory,

171
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 3: what's going to be left twenty years from now or

172
00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,520
Speaker 3: forty years from now for my kids? Right? And not

173
00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,640
Speaker 3: just the habitat alone and the hunting opportunities, but also

174
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 3: you know, again when you look at the water system

175
00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,000
Speaker 3: and the air quality and all the things that go with,

176
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:25,360
Speaker 3: you know, hand in hand with our land use practices,

177
00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 3: what where are we going to be in a generation

178
00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:30,560
Speaker 3: from now and how do we get ahead of that?

179
00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,200
Speaker 3: So that's that's really how I got to this point

180
00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,800
Speaker 3: or started to take this approach of analyzing land differently,

181
00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:39,839
Speaker 3: you know, looking at from a different scope or different

182
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,000
Speaker 3: perspective and trying to solve these problems. And then you

183
00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,320
Speaker 3: start to realize, you know, this whole white tail thing

184
00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,839
Speaker 3: is really a pretty minor thing on the grand scheme

185
00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:55,160
Speaker 3: of things, But at the same time, it's a really,

186
00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,400
Speaker 3: really good excuse to improve the quality of your habitat.

187
00:10:58,559 --> 00:11:02,720
Speaker 3: And also, you know, tech that habitat going forward, and

188
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,320
Speaker 3: it's a byproduct of it. Again, you know, killing big

189
00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:07,960
Speaker 3: maturre tier is a byproduct of a healthier ecosystem that

190
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:08,520
Speaker 3: they live in.

191
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. Uh so, so two things I want to drill

192
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:17,000
Speaker 2: into I do want to better understand. Well, let me

193
00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 2: start with something that caught me there. You said that

194
00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,520
Speaker 2: in your throughout this journey, you kind of came to

195
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,840
Speaker 2: the realization that managing for white tail habitat specifically is

196
00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:34,800
Speaker 2: a net negative. How do you how do you figure

197
00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,200
Speaker 2: in what way is managing for white tail habitat a

198
00:11:38,240 --> 00:11:42,080
Speaker 2: net negative for the ecosystem? And then once I understand that,

199
00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,319
Speaker 2: then we can start exploring what the alternative is that's

200
00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:48,880
Speaker 2: good for everything. But first, in what ways is the

201
00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:52,920
Speaker 2: status quo white tail specific way problematic in your view?

202
00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:56,679
Speaker 3: Yeah? And I you know, I don't want to generalize

203
00:11:56,679 --> 00:12:00,480
Speaker 3: too much because there are you know, white tail land

204
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,840
Speaker 3: managers out there that have a similar approach that I follow.

205
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:06,320
Speaker 3: You know, they're looking at the bigger picture, but they're

206
00:12:06,360 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 3: dialing things in. So when I say white tail land management,

207
00:12:09,760 --> 00:12:14,880
Speaker 3: I'm talking more specifically about this, you know, for a

208
00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 3: lack of better analogy, this landscaping technique that people are

209
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:24,160
Speaker 3: employing to put white tail deer in their lap for hunting, right,

210
00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:27,240
Speaker 3: and you start looking at some of these situations where

211
00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,079
Speaker 3: you have very a big lack of biodiversity at the

212
00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:34,120
Speaker 3: end of the day. You know, so, first and foremost,

213
00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:38,200
Speaker 3: managing specifically for white tail deer is a bad idea

214
00:12:38,320 --> 00:12:41,720
Speaker 3: because white tail deer are a generalist species right there,

215
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:44,360
Speaker 3: and they're pretty far up on the you know, the

216
00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 3: so called food web. So when you start managing for

217
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,960
Speaker 3: a generalist species that ranks as high as they do,

218
00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:56,920
Speaker 3: everything below them starts to suffer and eventually disappears. And

219
00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 3: and that's a big, big problem. I mean, by themselves,

220
00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:04,120
Speaker 3: white tailed deer are creatures of diversity. So when you

221
00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,480
Speaker 3: manage for diversity and obviously native habitat of which they

222
00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,440
Speaker 3: are a product, then everything thrives. But when you manage

223
00:13:11,440 --> 00:13:15,719
Speaker 3: specifically for the deer themselves, and you start looking at

224
00:13:15,760 --> 00:13:20,199
Speaker 3: things like, you know, how can we feed them very

225
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:24,640
Speaker 3: specific monocrops like soybeans or corn or you know, whatever

226
00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 3: you put in your food plots. And that's not the

227
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,160
Speaker 3: worst thing. At the end of the day, right, But

228
00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,000
Speaker 3: when you start to make that your entire approach to

229
00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,160
Speaker 3: managing deer, then there's a lot of other things that

230
00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,440
Speaker 3: suffer in that equation. You know. One of the things

231
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:39,200
Speaker 3: that I bring up frequently when I talk to my

232
00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,800
Speaker 3: clients who oftentimes come to me, you know, again with

233
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,480
Speaker 3: this idea that I'm going to help them produce really

234
00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,640
Speaker 3: big deer and make it easier for them to hunt.

235
00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:51,280
Speaker 3: And they've got all these ideas because they've been influenced

236
00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:54,520
Speaker 3: by other people in the space. They start looking at

237
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,160
Speaker 3: different you know, call them consultants approaches. And I'm not

238
00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:00,439
Speaker 3: here to throw anyone under the bus, right, trying to

239
00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:04,280
Speaker 3: bring some awareness to the situation. But one of the

240
00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:06,320
Speaker 3: main techniques that a lot of these guys will use,

241
00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,840
Speaker 3: and it's very effective. I mean, I will say that

242
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:12,800
Speaker 3: as far as hunting goes, is to separate food from cover,

243
00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:16,560
Speaker 3: so you ultimately have an area of dense cover, be

244
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 3: it switch grass. You know, maybe they'll tell you that

245
00:14:20,600 --> 00:14:24,200
Speaker 3: bringing in diversity by adding pockets of giant muscanthos or something,

246
00:14:25,160 --> 00:14:30,040
Speaker 3: or some guys will even promote leaving invasive shrubs because

247
00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:32,640
Speaker 3: it provides really good cover value. And then on the

248
00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:34,960
Speaker 3: other side of the property, they have all their food,

249
00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,960
Speaker 3: again generally broken up into various monocultures. So you're separating

250
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:42,360
Speaker 3: your food from your cover, which I like to refer

251
00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:45,560
Speaker 3: to as the half a tat approach, not habitat, because

252
00:14:45,560 --> 00:14:48,920
Speaker 3: habitat is the combination of food plus cover. Right, So

253
00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,040
Speaker 3: that presents a really good situation for hunting deer because

254
00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 3: you're forcing them to move to you know, go from

255
00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,440
Speaker 3: cover to food. But at the end of the day,

256
00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,560
Speaker 3: it's it's bad for both ecosystems. Right, Your forest ecosystem suffers.

257
00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:07,360
Speaker 3: Your ecosystem, you know that is in that food plot

258
00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,560
Speaker 3: suffers ultimately too. And also you're not really providing the

259
00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 3: deer with the quality nutrition that they need to really thrive.

260
00:15:15,120 --> 00:15:17,440
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of potential issues with that that

261
00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:19,640
Speaker 3: we're seeing through a lot of research studies as well.

262
00:15:20,120 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 3: So those overall concepts of you know, again that kind

263
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 3: of that landscape architecture that comes with deer hunting. I'm

264
00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:32,400
Speaker 3: not one hundred percent opposed to that, but it kind

265
00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:34,720
Speaker 3: of goes back to the same thing. You know, I

266
00:15:34,760 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 3: work with some small property owners that don't hunt at all,

267
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,040
Speaker 3: just trying to increase diversity on their property. Maybe they

268
00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,400
Speaker 3: want more butterflies and birds or whatever it might be.

269
00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 3: It's the same concept, right, what we're going in. We're

270
00:15:46,520 --> 00:15:50,160
Speaker 3: trying to replace some of these alien, cool seasoned grasses

271
00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,440
Speaker 3: or lawns with more native plants that are going to

272
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,240
Speaker 3: benefit the native pollinators and local insect population, which in

273
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 3: turn benefits the birds, which you know that it kind

274
00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 3: of scales up throughout that system, and then you know,

275
00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 3: we're placing invasive ornamental plants with native shrubs, again benefiting

276
00:16:11,160 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 3: all the players in that system and actually creating a

277
00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:17,760
Speaker 3: sustainable system in their backyard. It's the same thing we

278
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,040
Speaker 3: do on a property, just at a bigger scale, so

279
00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:25,280
Speaker 3: we can have the same type of architecture and create

280
00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,160
Speaker 3: the same type of movement, predictable movement, right that makes

281
00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,800
Speaker 3: it easier to hunt. But we can do it with natives.

282
00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,480
Speaker 3: The only real difference that I've seen is just this time,

283
00:16:36,000 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 3: the time that goes into the development of it, where

284
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,800
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of it is just the sales

285
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,600
Speaker 3: pitch of convenience that comes with this magic being or

286
00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,360
Speaker 3: this process, because it's so fast and so convenient see

287
00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 3: results right away, versus hey do these things and in

288
00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:54,760
Speaker 3: a couple of years you're going to see these results

289
00:16:55,120 --> 00:16:57,280
Speaker 3: and kind of work up to it. But it creates

290
00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,560
Speaker 3: a more sustainable system. So as a whole. Well, again,

291
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,359
Speaker 3: managing just for deer, I think is problematic because you

292
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:09,440
Speaker 3: start to reach a point where you're not really managing

293
00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 3: for wildlife. You're kind of more so just farming certain

294
00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:18,280
Speaker 3: species of wildlife, which you know, if we start looking

295
00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,840
Speaker 3: at the conventional agricultural systems, it's pretty easy to punch

296
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,200
Speaker 3: a lot of holes in the sustainability of that as well.

297
00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,960
Speaker 3: And that's where I say hunters are on the front line.

298
00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:28,840
Speaker 3: You know, we're on the front line of conservation, so

299
00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:33,480
Speaker 3: we have kind of an unspoken responsibility to do things

300
00:17:33,520 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 3: the right way. Yeah, and you made a good point

301
00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:40,240
Speaker 3: earlier when you said that, you know, deer are generalists.

302
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 3: They can actually, in fact live in many different habitat

303
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:48,160
Speaker 3: types with varying degrees of habitat quality and still get by.

304
00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:53,480
Speaker 3: So what if you are managing specifically for white tails,

305
00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:57,879
Speaker 3: you are it's like you're throwing a basketball at a

306
00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 3: basketball hoop the size of a bathtub, But you have

307
00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:05,240
Speaker 3: many other species on the landscape that are equally important

308
00:18:05,280 --> 00:18:08,879
Speaker 3: to the whole that are specialists. There are many insects,

309
00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 3: there are many different critters out there who are you know,

310
00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:17,600
Speaker 3: dependent on specific things, dependent on certain relationships between different animals,

311
00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,240
Speaker 3: different pollinators, different habitat types, all that kind of stuff.

312
00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:23,879
Speaker 3: So if we don't manage for the specialists, they just disappear.

313
00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 3: And so, like you're talking about deer pretty far up

314
00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:29,800
Speaker 3: the web, but these other critters down towards the bottom

315
00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,600
Speaker 3: are more specialized, are important, and invasive species really do

316
00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:46,760
Speaker 3: impact them.

317
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,359
Speaker 2: So that makes a lot of sense to me. If

318
00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 2: we manage for those specialists, if we focus on those natives,

319
00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:54,960
Speaker 2: all of that kind of stuff, then creates a stronger

320
00:18:55,000 --> 00:18:59,280
Speaker 2: foundation for a healthier deer herd and everything else. You know,

321
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:05,119
Speaker 2: that makes sense to me. But but I'd love you

322
00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: to expand a little bit on the possible positive impact

323
00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,439
Speaker 2: hunters have. I mean, I mean, you're not saying that

324
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:18,160
Speaker 2: hunters can just have better hunting. I've seen that on folks,

325
00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:21,879
Speaker 2: you know, their sales pitch. I've heard people say, you can,

326
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:25,560
Speaker 2: you know, shoot bigger bucks. I've seen that on you know,

327
00:19:26,000 --> 00:19:31,360
Speaker 2: folks Instagram pages. You're saying hunters can save the world. Yeah,

328
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 2: you're not saying I just kill a booner buck. You're

329
00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 2: saying hunters can save the world by doing this kind

330
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:42,480
Speaker 2: of thing. Help me understand that, Help me understand the power,

331
00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 2: the influence, the impact that you believe we can have

332
00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 2: if we look at things this way.

333
00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think one of the biggest factors there is

334
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 3: leading by example. Right, So you start to look at

335
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,680
Speaker 3: the land in this country and the land use practices. Again,

336
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,000
Speaker 3: we have the large or the vast majority of the

337
00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 3: land is being utilized to grill crops.

338
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 2: Right.

339
00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:08,639
Speaker 3: We're never going to really get away from that because

340
00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,159
Speaker 3: we obviously have to feed a population. But when you

341
00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:14,159
Speaker 3: start looking at the rest of the land and you

342
00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,959
Speaker 3: have forty to fifty million acres of lawn and you know,

343
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:22,600
Speaker 3: sixty million plus acres of paved surfaces. When it comes

344
00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 3: down to the people that actually own land and want

345
00:20:27,119 --> 00:20:30,280
Speaker 3: to manage it for wildlife, I think we have a

346
00:20:30,440 --> 00:20:33,240
Speaker 3: very heavy responsibility to do it in a way that

347
00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:38,200
Speaker 3: increases or promotes biodiversity. And that's where that leading by

348
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,520
Speaker 3: example comes into play, and that what I always refer

349
00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,320
Speaker 3: to as that impact with that subsequent rippling effect. One

350
00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:47,000
Speaker 3: of the things I tell my clients all the time

351
00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,600
Speaker 3: is community communication creates common goals. So where a lot

352
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,760
Speaker 3: of whitetail consultants out there, will you know, they use

353
00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 3: as kind of a sales pitch of oh, how to

354
00:20:56,600 --> 00:20:59,800
Speaker 3: kill your neighbor's buck, or how to you know, hold

355
00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 3: you're on your property and not let your neighbors kill them. Well,

356
00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 3: unless you have a really really big property, we know

357
00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 3: that that's kind of a line of bs because deer

358
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 3: cover a lot of ground, so it's really hard to

359
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 3: hold the mature buck on your property. All the time,

360
00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,560
Speaker 3: what I preached to my clients is work with your

361
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: neighbors when they start asking questions. And we see this

362
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 3: all the time. I just last week did another community

363
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:24,600
Speaker 3: cooperative meeting where we had a client property, we had

364
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,160
Speaker 3: some projects in progress. The neighbors started asking questions, and

365
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:31,320
Speaker 3: I just tell my clients all the time, and I

366
00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 3: kind of preface the whole consulting process to them and say,

367
00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,639
Speaker 3: at some point people are going to ask questions, and

368
00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 3: I would strongly encourage you to share whatever you're comfortable

369
00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:43,879
Speaker 3: with sharing, because you're going to have an impact, and

370
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 3: the bigger the impact you have, the better your hunting

371
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 3: is going to get. At the end of the day, again,

372
00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,679
Speaker 3: I try to use that hunting as an excuse to

373
00:21:49,720 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 3: make everything better. But with that community communication, we start

374
00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 3: talking to these guys, Now you have one property, you know,

375
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,359
Speaker 3: call it the point of impact. You have one property

376
00:22:00,400 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 3: in the center that we're going through and we're improving

377
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 3: all the native habitat. We're taking degraded crop land, improving that,

378
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:13,320
Speaker 3: we're taking over used pasture land, improving that all with

379
00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 3: native habitat. And then the neighbors start asking questions. We

380
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,840
Speaker 3: tell them what we're doing and why, and all of

381
00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 3: a sudden they start to look at their property from

382
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:25,160
Speaker 3: a different perspective. Now too, how does that fit into

383
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 3: the big equation? How can we make it better for hunting?

384
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:29,680
Speaker 3: And then the other thing that I do on that

385
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 3: same note is we try to get landowners to cooperate together.

386
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:37,200
Speaker 3: At the end of the day, you know, with cattle

387
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,399
Speaker 3: are a big, big part of the equation, and in

388
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,760
Speaker 3: any situation where they're involved, they're a very valuable land

389
00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 3: management tool, specifically for nutrient cycling. So if we have

390
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 3: a neighbor that has beef cattle rather than mowing our

391
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,800
Speaker 3: native pasture land or what was pasture land is now

392
00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 3: just native prairie, habitat rather than just going in there

393
00:22:57,440 --> 00:22:59,480
Speaker 3: and mowing that all the time, we'll work out in

394
00:22:59,520 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 3: agreement with the neighbor to come in and graze his cattle.

395
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 3: And that's a double win, right, because it costs us

396
00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,360
Speaker 3: less on our inputs as far as how we're managing

397
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 3: that land, and the neighbor's happy because it takes pressure

398
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:16,239
Speaker 3: off of his land, and that in turn makes his

399
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: land better because his caring capacity can go up now.

400
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 3: And it kind of ripples from there, and when you

401
00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,800
Speaker 3: start to see that, you know, outside of that immediate community,

402
00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 3: then other people start asking questions or you know, when

403
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,840
Speaker 3: they ask you your technique or how you're managing your land,

404
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,000
Speaker 3: then they are more intrigued. And again, I think we

405
00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:40,879
Speaker 3: have a big responsibility not just on improving biodiversity and

406
00:23:40,920 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 3: managing our land appropriately, but also just again leading by

407
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 3: example so that you know, the non hunter can look

408
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 3: at what we're doing and have a better understanding, because

409
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 3: how many times are you asked that question right like, oh,

410
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 3: you're just farming deer, and I get it. You know,

411
00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 3: people that don't understand it, and even people that do

412
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 3: understand it look at it like, well, you're just farming deer.

413
00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:02,879
Speaker 3: You're just doing that so you can kill deer. I

414
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,159
Speaker 3: just had this conversation this morning. I have this like

415
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,360
Speaker 3: strange guilty pleasure of starting conversations online with the vegans

416
00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 3: like wow when I'm when I'm bored, because I follow

417
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 3: it and I try to do it like tactually right,

418
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:22,439
Speaker 3: mostly because I'm trying to understand their perspective outside of

419
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,440
Speaker 3: just you know, the virtue signaling that comes with that

420
00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:28,480
Speaker 3: type of lifestyle. And most of the time they're not

421
00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:31,760
Speaker 3: productive conversations, and they are what they are. But sometimes

422
00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,520
Speaker 3: you get into really productive conversations and I always bring

423
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,040
Speaker 3: it up. You know, I am a true animal lover, right,

424
00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 3: I think most hunters are. And then people always ask, well,

425
00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 3: if you love them so much, how can you kill them?

426
00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 2: Right?

427
00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 3: Then you start to explain, like, this is what we're doing.

428
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 3: You know, we're trying to improve these habitats, increasing the sustainability,

429
00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 3: the caring capacity, the biodiversity. And then we use hunting

430
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:57,800
Speaker 3: as a management tool. And the byproduct of that management

431
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 3: tool is we can feed our families or the surrounding

432
00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:07,000
Speaker 3: communities with this extremely nutrient dense meat or food that

433
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,399
Speaker 3: has very little negative environmental impact in fact, it has

434
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 3: a very positive environmental impact, and that kind of brings

435
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 3: me all the way back around to why I think

436
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 3: hunters can save the world is because they are really

437
00:25:21,600 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 3: the only population of people that own land that are

438
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: willing to stick the time and money into that land

439
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 3: to improve the wildlife habitat without expecting a dramatic financial

440
00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 3: return from it. Right. We're you know, like farmers are

441
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: kind of in the same boat, but they always have

442
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 3: to have profit at the end of the day. Where hunters,

443
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 3: you know, they bought that land for that reason.

444
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, we are internally incentivized already to improve the habitat

445
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 2: for the reasons you're discussing, right, And it's you know,

446
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 2: this is this is a line of thinking that I've

447
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 2: been spending a lot of time exploring as well, and

448
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 2: you know, it comes to the scale of our impact,

449
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: it's not it's not inconsequential at all. You know, the

450
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 2: best number I can come up with, based off of

451
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 2: a land you study that came out a handful of

452
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: years ago, is that there is about three hundred and

453
00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,240
Speaker 2: fifty six million acres of land across the country that's

454
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: owned primarily for hunting. Three hundred and fifty six million acres.

455
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: That's larger than our National Park Service lands across the country.

456
00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 2: That we could change. That we can change that, we

457
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 2: could do the things you're talking about on and address

458
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: you know, some serious things, because I think something that

459
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 2: we haven't talked about. It's something I you know, mentioned

460
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: probably earlier in this month. But you know, deer are

461
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: doing pretty darn good across the nation, right We're basically

462
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 2: in the golden days of deer. But a lot of

463
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 2: these other things, those specialists I talked about, those birds

464
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,400
Speaker 2: and those bugs, and many plant species and all sorts

465
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,960
Speaker 2: of stuff are struggling in many ways across the country.

466
00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,439
Speaker 2: And if we lose that stuff, which we are, you know,

467
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,919
Speaker 2: trending in that direction, then all of a sudden, our

468
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:07,639
Speaker 2: beloved white tails are in trouble. So I think there's

469
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 2: this selfish incentive, like we want better deer, and then

470
00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,480
Speaker 2: there's this more altruistic incentive, which is, hey, we can

471
00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 2: make a big picture impact, Like you're saying, that's going

472
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 2: to help everything. It's going to help our air quality,

473
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:27,640
Speaker 2: our water quality, the health of everything around us. So

474
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:32,320
Speaker 2: so your argument is falling in what's the word I'm

475
00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: trying to say, you're hitting me right there where I'm interested.

476
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: But I guess the thing that I want to explore

477
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,920
Speaker 2: next is this, if all of this sounds pretty good

478
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 2: to somebody, if someone likes the idea of it, what

479
00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:49,880
Speaker 2: are the three or four big picture things that we

480
00:27:49,960 --> 00:27:52,560
Speaker 2: need to be thinking about doing differently on our land

481
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 2: if we want to manage sustainably, if we want to

482
00:27:55,960 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: manage holistically. I'm sure there's twenty seven different tactics you

483
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:03,639
Speaker 2: could recommend, but what are the three or four philosophies

484
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: or principles that we need to write down right now?

485
00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 2: Is like, these are the most important ideas or things

486
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: I need to learn about or practices I need to

487
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 2: start digging in on.

488
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 3: I think the number one thing is the mindset, right

489
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: I find myself over and over again, you know, And

490
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: this is a personal thing when I you know, I

491
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: find myself challenged with a decision to make, and I

492
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 3: carry a lot of weight on my own because when

493
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:35,840
Speaker 3: I'm here managing all these client properties or directing them,

494
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: knowing that the decisions that I make and consequently they

495
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 3: make will affect generations right where. I think that's one

496
00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 3: big issue also with kind of this mentality of the

497
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:50,960
Speaker 3: white tail land management, so like, oh, how can I

498
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 3: buy land and kill deer? Like we're not thinking about

499
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 3: the value of that land outside of deer, which again

500
00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 3: is another negative. But I always come back to this quote,

501
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,160
Speaker 3: and I don't know if someone else said it or

502
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 3: if it kind of, you know, was a conglomerate of

503
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 3: other people talking books I've read and whatever. But I

504
00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 3: always tell my clients every convenience comes at a cost

505
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 3: if you focus on that're not necessarily focused, but always

506
00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 3: remind yourself every convenience comes at a cost, and that

507
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 3: you know by that, I mean it might be a

508
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 3: week down the road, it might be a generation down

509
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 3: the road, whatever it might be. We have to, as

510
00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 3: hunters and as land managers, first and foremost understand that

511
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: those conveniences are going to cost someone at some point

512
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 3: in time. So cutting corners, punching the easy button, you know,

513
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,920
Speaker 3: taking those shortcuts in things that in our mind. And

514
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,360
Speaker 3: I've been there, I've been guilty this many times, Like

515
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: what can I do right now? It's going to help

516
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 3: me kill it here, especially if you're in the middle

517
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,720
Speaker 3: of the season doing something crazy. Right there's one thing

518
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 3: to adjust your habits and make bold, aggressive moves. That's

519
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 3: only going to affect you, right, But it's another thing

520
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 3: to just constantly cut corners, try to, you know, look

521
00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: for again these easy, convenient ways of improving that you know,

522
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: habitat situation on your property, and then it ultimately it

523
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 3: comes back around and cost someone or something at some point.

524
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 3: And you already kind of hit on that the specialist

525
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: species that are suffering from these management practices. At the

526
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 3: end of the day, beyond that, it's not that complicated,

527
00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 3: I think, you know, again, it goes back to that

528
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 3: holistic approach, which you know, the concept of holistic land management.

529
00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: We're looking at that land and how it functions as

530
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 3: a system in and of itself, right, So that's that's

531
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 3: really the hunting layout, and that's how I explained to

532
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 3: my client. So we can look at that and you know,

533
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 3: this is a big part of what I do. Where

534
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 3: we come into a property and we're not just necessarily

535
00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 3: consulting on where to put a tree stand, where to

536
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 3: put a food plot, where to improve a betting area,

537
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 3: but we're trying to create a system. How can we

538
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 3: create a system on that property where you know, our

539
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 3: main goal at the end of the day is to

540
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 3: at least get our management practices to pay for themselves

541
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 3: or balance out in some way, shape or form so

542
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 3: that it's sustainable. Because if it's if it costs us

543
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 3: a lot all the time. At some point in time,

544
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 3: whether it's you know, the current landowner realizing how much

545
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 3: money he's sticking in this property, or maybe he passes

546
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: on and then his children inherit the property and they realize, wow,

547
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 3: I can't really manage it this way. It costs too much.

548
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,480
Speaker 3: Then they're more likely to just get rid of the

549
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 3: property or you know, develop it, whatever whatever comes up.

550
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: Right Again, that dollar, you know, it controls a lot,

551
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 3: so it has to be sustainable in that sense. So

552
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: we're looking at the property how it functions as a

553
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 3: system in and of itself, and then we're looking at

554
00:31:43,320 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 3: how that property fits into the bigger system, back to

555
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 3: that community aspect, And I think that's a big thing

556
00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: people should look at on their property is you know,

557
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 3: we all have this idea where we have to have

558
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:56,800
Speaker 3: a betting area and we have to have a food source,

559
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 3: and we have to have this, and we have to

560
00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 3: have that. And sometimes that all works out really well,

561
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,520
Speaker 3: but sometimes with smaller properties, which you know, more and

562
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 3: more with the price of land itself going up, and

563
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: obviously the you know, the financial situations in this country,

564
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: it's going to be harder and harder for the average

565
00:32:14,800 --> 00:32:18,000
Speaker 3: person to purchase a big tract of land. So when

566
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 3: you start talking about smaller pieces of land, we need

567
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: to look at how that land fits into the overall community.

568
00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: And that might be you know, how it produces food

569
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 3: for other wildlife in the area. It might be where

570
00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 3: it fits into the watershed. You know, everyone loves the

571
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 3: idea of having their own personal fishing pond, but if

572
00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 3: we go and we dam up the river the stream,

573
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 3: that's going to have consequences downstream, right And also you

574
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 3: know the things that we spray on the ground or

575
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 3: how we treat that dirt. If that dirt ends up

576
00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: in the water, again, we're causing problems that bigger watershed.

577
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 3: So looking at how it fits into the big picture,

578
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 3: that bigger systems big And then you know, we look

579
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 3: at the property and how it's made up of smaller systems,

580
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,000
Speaker 3: and that's really where that habitat comes into play. What

581
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 3: are the different ecosystems on that property and how do

582
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: we how do we use those ecosystems on the property

583
00:33:12,880 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 3: to our advantage without completely altering or manipulating them, right,

584
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 3: So there's always some compromise that has to be had.

585
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 3: We can't just go in and say, well, you know,

586
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,120
Speaker 3: ideally it'd be better if the betting area was over

587
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,719
Speaker 3: here and the food is over here, so let's go

588
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,200
Speaker 3: and clear cut this whole area and or bulldoze it

589
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 3: and put in food and then plant switch grass over here.

590
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 3: When we you know, we basically flip flop these these

591
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 3: ecosystems on the property. So a lot of it is

592
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 3: working with what you already have and trying to build

593
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: off the strong points on that property versus trying to

594
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,520
Speaker 3: you know, be the hand of God and alter things

595
00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 3: in a dramatic fashion purely for personal gain. You know.

596
00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 3: When it comes to the hunting and being successful in hunting,

597
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 3: habits play a bigger role than anything. You know, Having

598
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,840
Speaker 3: the deer there is the reason why we focus on

599
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 3: habitat again, and that's why we need to focus on

600
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 3: the sustainable side of that. But once the deer are

601
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 3: there and we have the quality of deer there, then

602
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 3: it just comes down to the habits in your approach. Obviously,

603
00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: there's some strategy involved there, but again, we can do

604
00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 3: those things without sacrificing the bigger picture.

605
00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, So if I'm imagining the typical whitetail habitat management

606
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,879
Speaker 2: plan of action, I can imagine some combination of Hey,

607
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: you should plant some food plots, and they're usually going

608
00:34:36,080 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: to be some kind of buck on a bag type

609
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 2: food plot thing, right, and you're gonna get some of that.

610
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 2: You're going to get some Hey, you should do some

611
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: hinge cutting, or you should do some timber stand improvement,

612
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,760
Speaker 2: or you should plant some switch grass, or you should

613
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 2: plant some screening cover. You should plant some apple trees

614
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: or something like that. You should design these kinds of

615
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 2: things in such a way that it encourages deer movement

616
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,320
Speaker 2: in a way that will benefit your hunting. You should

617
00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:05,719
Speaker 2: put your habitat improvements in places where you're not going

618
00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,160
Speaker 2: to spook deer when you come in and out. You know,

619
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: you should add some water, some combination of that kind

620
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,440
Speaker 2: of stuff with various expansions on any one of those particulars.

621
00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: Is about what you're going to hear when it comes

622
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 2: to what somebody should do with a habitat management plan

623
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 2: for white tailed deer, how is your suggested philosophy different

624
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 2: than that or within those sets of examples, like what

625
00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:34,359
Speaker 2: would you do differently or is it not different at all?

626
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,960
Speaker 2: It's just choosing the right types of things to plant

627
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:40,160
Speaker 2: or not plant, or manage or not manage.

628
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really not that far from that at the

629
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 3: end of the day, because all the things that you

630
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 3: touched on there are valuable aspects of a hunting property. Right,

631
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:53,439
Speaker 3: if you're buying that property specifically for hunting, then yes,

632
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: we do want to manage it in a way that

633
00:35:56,719 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: it creates more huntable situations. And again, most of that

634
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: is going to start with opportunity, and opportunity comes from

635
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: the habitat that produces the standard or quality of animal

636
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 3: that you're trying to pursue. So my approach, you know,

637
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: as a whole, you're always going to be better off

638
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 3: with a systems type approach versus relying on any one

639
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 3: single aspect of anything. Right. It's kind of like, you know,

640
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 3: you're going to be healthier if you choose a healthy

641
00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: lifestyle versus just exercising once a day, but eating a

642
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 3: poor diet or you know, everything together has that cumulative effect.

643
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 3: So the way I approach everything is you know, we'll

644
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: start will break down the property, visualize everything that's going on,

645
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:40,200
Speaker 3: and I do a lot of mapping stuff, so we'll

646
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,239
Speaker 3: map everything out, what your current situation is, and then

647
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 3: we're obviously looking at goals. The next thing we're doing

648
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 3: is we're scouting that property to assess the actual habitat types.

649
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,120
Speaker 3: And you know, from the hunting side of things, we're

650
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 3: really just trying to locate pinch points or figure out

651
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 3: where we want to create pinch points that are accessible.

652
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 3: Because once you have that opportunity, once you've improved the

653
00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:06,359
Speaker 3: habitat to put deer in your on your property, then

654
00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:08,600
Speaker 3: the next key to the white tail side of things

655
00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:10,560
Speaker 3: is to ensure that you're not pushing them off your

656
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:14,320
Speaker 3: property by unnecessary pressure. So we're scouting to find the

657
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 3: best hunting locations that have the least impact on the property. Again,

658
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 3: you kind of touched on that, and then the next

659
00:37:20,200 --> 00:37:24,879
Speaker 3: thing is that actual habitat design. So with that, you know, again,

660
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,919
Speaker 3: same thing you just brought up, where do we want

661
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 3: to add screening cover so that we have better access.

662
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 3: Do we even need to do that in some situations

663
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 3: where do we want to improve more dense betting cover,

664
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 3: where we hold our deer during the day that daytime

665
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 3: security cover, and where do we want to create higher

666
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 3: food value areas to draw those deer into. So my

667
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,560
Speaker 3: approach is very very similar to most guys, except again

668
00:37:49,800 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 3: I try to always go back to that convenience factor,

669
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,319
Speaker 3: Like we don't want to just settle for convenience. We

670
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 3: want to think about the big picture. And it's really

671
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 3: it's not that difficult. The end of the day, we're

672
00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: just addressing things based on the ecosystems. And you know,

673
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,680
Speaker 3: I don't try to be one hundred percent of peerst

674
00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, right I understand that

675
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:14,279
Speaker 3: at this point in the game that we're never going

676
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 3: to reach that level again. So I try to follow

677
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 3: more of like a ninety ten rule on our client properties,

678
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 3: where ten percent is dedicated to our wants and needs

679
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: and the other ninety percent needs to be focused on

680
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 3: the wildlife. Though again we might manipulate that habitat in

681
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 3: ways that encourages certain activities, but it's ninety percent native

682
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,720
Speaker 3: in various forms and fashions, and then that ten percent

683
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 3: is what is going to fall under, you know, the

684
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:48,440
Speaker 3: food plots and the more focused on our specific needs

685
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 3: at the end of the day, and it creates a

686
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 3: little bit better way to approach things right, It takes

687
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 3: a little bit less pressure off. But ultimately at the

688
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:58,560
Speaker 3: end of the day, I tell my clients the same thing,

689
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 3: don't over it. If we focus on native habitat and

690
00:39:03,640 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 3: diversity within that, you can't really go wrong. Once we

691
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,120
Speaker 3: have our overall hunting strategy laid out in our design,

692
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,520
Speaker 3: then you just go back to the native habitat and

693
00:39:14,640 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 3: part of that too. You know, I actually work, you know,

694
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,959
Speaker 3: so my background is in biology, but I'm really really

695
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 3: good at assessing the habitat and the native vegetation in

696
00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:28,040
Speaker 3: my area, southwestern Wisconsin. But when I start to go

697
00:39:28,120 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 3: up into northern Wisconsin, yeah, I know most of what's

698
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 3: going on there, but I'm not as good up there.

699
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:34,800
Speaker 3: And if I go south, you know, I've got clients

700
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,279
Speaker 3: as far north as Duluth, Minnesota, and as far south

701
00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 3: as central Missouri. When I get in those areas or

702
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 3: anywhere out of my element, and even sometimes in southwestern Wisconsin,

703
00:39:44,520 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: I've got a whole team of biologists that I can

704
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 3: network off of that work for the state. They're a

705
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 3: free resource. So if I go to them, and I

706
00:39:51,160 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 3: already know what I want as far as the structure

707
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:56,759
Speaker 3: and habitat types. They can help me figure out the

708
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:59,839
Speaker 3: native habitat and those native ecosystems in a way that

709
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,880
Speaker 3: I don't understand as well outside of what I'm familiar with.

710
00:40:04,280 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 3: So I think that's important too.

711
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,840
Speaker 2: So it sounds like one of the absolute, maybe the

712
00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,400
Speaker 2: most important principle within the system. Though after having a

713
00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:27,719
Speaker 2: plan and thinking through how these things are all an

714
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: interconnected system, it seems like a major principle is native

715
00:40:32,800 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 2: favoring native habitat vegetation, you know, ninety percent of the

716
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 2: time at least. So we've kind of dibbled and dabbled

717
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 2: kind of around why native is better, But can you

718
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,759
Speaker 2: give me your explicit take on why native, why I

719
00:40:48,800 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 2: focus on natives is better than kind of succumbing to

720
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 2: the temptation of the non native or invasive, which is,

721
00:40:57,040 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: as you mentioned, usually sometimes at least sometimes more convene.

722
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,399
Speaker 2: It might be quicker, or it might already be there

723
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: in serving a purpose to some degree. But why is

724
00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:11,799
Speaker 2: native the better option and worth the inconvenience it might

725
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 2: take to add it back to the landscape or restore it.

726
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:20,280
Speaker 3: The biggest factor from my perspective, is the nutrient cycling

727
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 3: within any ecosystem. So you know, you have all these

728
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:30,400
Speaker 3: different species from bugs and insects, plants, birds, all the

729
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:35,320
Speaker 3: way up to deer predators. Obviously, if you're not managing

730
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 3: the nutrients, then your system is not productive at the

731
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 3: end of the day. And that's one of the biggest

732
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,359
Speaker 3: net negatives of invasives in an ecosystem is they don't

733
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: fit into that nutrient cycle, right, nothing consumes them and

734
00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 3: breaks them down. You know, whenever an animal consumes a plant,

735
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:59,799
Speaker 3: it utilizes certain minerals and nutrients from that plant to

736
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 3: do whatever it needs to do. And then the byproduct

737
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,760
Speaker 3: of what it doesn't use is a change in form

738
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,680
Speaker 3: of the nutrients that it didn't utilize that go back

739
00:42:09,680 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 3: into that ecosystem, and you know, maybe that byproduct might

740
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: help to promote growth of a different plant or whatever

741
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:18,680
Speaker 3: it might be. So when you have a non native

742
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 3: in an ecosystem, it doesn't fit into that cycle.

743
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:22,920
Speaker 2: You know.

744
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: For example, well, one of the things that I say

745
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 3: all the time to my clients is good quality deer

746
00:42:29,200 --> 00:42:33,239
Speaker 3: habitat is for the birds if you actually focused on

747
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,520
Speaker 3: the birds. Yeah, if you focus on the birds. You're

748
00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:38,799
Speaker 3: going to provide everything in more than those deer need,

749
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 3: from cover to brows and everything in between, right, And

750
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,680
Speaker 3: that's a huge element of it. So, you know, we

751
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 3: start talking about let's just take native grasses for example,

752
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:55,560
Speaker 3: and I'm a huge I'm very, very against giant muscanthus grass,

753
00:42:56,640 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: you know, and I've heard you talk about it before.

754
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 3: I think you had a really good conversation with the

755
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:06,520
Speaker 3: Native Habitat Project on here about giant muscanthus. And you know,

756
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 3: by definition, an invasive is an alien plant that spreads

757
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:15,880
Speaker 3: throughout its environment, right and has limited competition, or it

758
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:20,239
Speaker 3: limits competition. Some invasives have an aleopathic aspect to them,

759
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: or most of the time what we see with most

760
00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:28,360
Speaker 3: invasives is they green up sooner in the growing season,

761
00:43:28,400 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: and they stay green longer in the growing season. And

762
00:43:30,760 --> 00:43:33,320
Speaker 3: when you take a plant that averages, you know, thirty

763
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 3: to forty more days of photosynthesis than all the native competition,

764
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 3: it doesn't take long for it to choke everything out

765
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:43,800
Speaker 3: with that advantage. Giant muscanthis, there are those out there,

766
00:43:44,239 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: you know, and I have I'm sure everyone knows who

767
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 3: we're talking about. I have a lot of respect for

768
00:43:48,280 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 3: these guys. But they will argue that it's not invasive. Well,

769
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 3: if you go back to that definition of what they

770
00:43:54,920 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 3: or something that's sterile, Yeah, but by definition on what's invasive, yes,

771
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,719
Speaker 3: maybe this plant's not spreading by seed right now, but

772
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,680
Speaker 3: if it's being distributed throughout the country and planted, that

773
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 3: kind of is following the same suit. And when someone's

774
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 3: going in and eliminating the native habitat or whatever vegetation's

775
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 3: growing to promote the growth of this specific plant, it's

776
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 3: kind of accomplishing the same goal, but forced upon nature

777
00:44:23,480 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 3: by the human hand. So when you start to look

778
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:29,680
Speaker 3: at that, giant Mescantho is perfect example, right if you

779
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 3: look at let's compare it to a native grass like

780
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:36,719
Speaker 3: big blue stem. Okay, there's a lot of bird species

781
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 3: that feed on the seeds of big blue stem. Giant

782
00:44:41,320 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 3: Mescanthos doesn't produce a seed that feeds any native birds.

783
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 3: If you dig a little bit deeper into that food web,

784
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:50,680
Speaker 3: there's like seventy to one hundred different species of insects

785
00:44:50,680 --> 00:44:52,960
Speaker 3: that feed on big blue stem at some point in

786
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 3: its life cycle, and subsequently there's hundreds of species of

787
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 3: birds that feed on those insects. Actually rely on the

788
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,040
Speaker 3: those insects to feed their chicks so that they have

789
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 3: enough protein to grow big enough, fast enough, strong enough

790
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:09,760
Speaker 3: so that they can migrate before winter.

791
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 2: Right.

792
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 3: So if you strip that out of the system, and

793
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 3: you plug in a non native plant like giant mescanthus

794
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 3: that feeds few to none of those native insects, then

795
00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 3: you basically clip out the food source for the native

796
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 3: birds that would feed on those native insects and or

797
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:29,840
Speaker 3: the seeds from that plant, and you completely disrupt that

798
00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 3: whole ecosystem. So, you know, back to where I think

799
00:45:33,200 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 3: hunters have a pretty big responsibility. And I see this

800
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: all the time this time of year. I'm sure you

801
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:40,640
Speaker 3: see it on social media. You know, maybe I do

802
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,640
Speaker 3: more because I'm on the land management stuff, but you

803
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,400
Speaker 3: all see these ads for land clearing companies, and I

804
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:46,880
Speaker 3: always got a kick out of them because they always

805
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:50,360
Speaker 3: push the same thing, enhance or improve your usable space

806
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 3: on your property. And that term or that phrase usable

807
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: space drives me nuts because what is usable space? Again?

808
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 3: A lot of us look at like, oh, it's a

809
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 3: lawn where you know, maybe two days out of the

810
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 3: entire summer we actually take our kids outside and throw

811
00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:09,319
Speaker 3: football around versus you know, what could that actually be

812
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:13,640
Speaker 3: to again improve that local ecosystem. And we're talking about

813
00:46:13,640 --> 00:46:17,680
Speaker 3: a hunting property. Every single square inch of that property

814
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 3: should be utilized in a beneficial way to the wildlife

815
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 3: that we're promoting. And you plug an invasive in there

816
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 3: by design, it really only has an advantage for you

817
00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 3: and you alone, and it has no part in that ecosystem.

818
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 3: So again, the nutrient cycling in that system is completely

819
00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: gone at that point with these invasives. So that's the

820
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 3: biggest reason.

821
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: So back to the specifics of miss scanthos real quick,

822
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 2: what's an alternative? So if I wanted to use miscanthos,

823
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,160
Speaker 2: if that was my original plan, I was going to

824
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:52,719
Speaker 2: use that for screening cover, to provide a screen around

825
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 2: a food plot, or to screen the road, or to

826
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:57,440
Speaker 2: block a trail so I can walk in without dear

827
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,160
Speaker 2: seeing me. What would you recommend as a alternative that

828
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 2: is more likely to be native and still achieve that

829
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:05,240
Speaker 2: same function.

830
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: Switch grass is a good one as far as grass is,

831
00:47:08,680 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 3: you know, it's not going to get as tall, but

832
00:47:11,200 --> 00:47:14,520
Speaker 3: relatively quickly you can provide pretty good cover as far

833
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,640
Speaker 3: as screening cover goes. Obviously, there's a variety of conifers

834
00:47:18,719 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 3: that will provide the same cover value. Again, it takes

835
00:47:22,480 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 3: a little bit of patience for those to grow and develop,

836
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 3: So you know, there's that balance there, which is the

837
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 3: main reason why most people lean towards the miscanthus if

838
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 3: they're in that situation, because you know, within a few

839
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 3: years they get a lot more cover. But again it's

840
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:41,040
Speaker 3: that convenience factor that comes at a cost to that

841
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 3: local ecosystem. Those will be the main ones when I'm

842
00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:49,840
Speaker 3: looking at screening in general. You know, there's really two

843
00:47:49,880 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 3: things I'm looking at. Are we trying to screen deer

844
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 3: from seeing into a certain food plot or screen deer

845
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,720
Speaker 3: from seeing other deer in that situation, there's a wide

846
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: variety of things that you can put in place from

847
00:48:02,800 --> 00:48:06,239
Speaker 3: you know, a variety of native shrubs, combination of native grasses,

848
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: all of them are going to create really good structure

849
00:48:09,120 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 3: and cover for bedding or screening. On the other side

850
00:48:12,560 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 3: of that, if you're trying to screen off an area

851
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:18,719
Speaker 3: and not not actually add attraction to it because you

852
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:21,240
Speaker 3: don't want to draw deer into your access route or something,

853
00:48:21,680 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 3: then switch grass is a great way to go. But

854
00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 3: I want to say that and remind people that switchgrass,

855
00:48:29,280 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 3: you know, planted with a no tail drill at a

856
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:36,280
Speaker 3: high seed rate doesn't really produce the same native quality

857
00:48:36,320 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 3: of stand that switchgrass would produce in the wild. You know,

858
00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,279
Speaker 3: switch grass and a lot of these other grasses we're

859
00:48:42,280 --> 00:48:45,000
Speaker 3: talking about, like big blue stem and little blue stem

860
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,440
Speaker 3: and such. You know, they're a perennial bunch grass, and

861
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 3: when they grow in a more native or natural setting,

862
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,400
Speaker 3: they provide pretty good cover, you know from a deer's level,

863
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 3: eye level, or you know, even on up. But on

864
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:02,440
Speaker 3: the ground level they have this umbrella effect because they

865
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:05,320
Speaker 3: grow in a bunch and that provides this whole highway

866
00:49:05,320 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 3: and network of places for ground nesting birds and chicks

867
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 3: and stuff to navigate through and also search for insects

868
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 3: and be protected from hawks and other aerial threats. But

869
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 3: if you go out and you drill in your switch

870
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 3: grass at a high seed rate, it actually creates a

871
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,360
Speaker 3: situation where those ground nesting birds can't move through it

872
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 3: as freely and it can be problematic. So you know,

873
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:31,759
Speaker 3: in certain situations like a ten foot wide swath for screening,

874
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:34,000
Speaker 3: it's probably not that big of a deal. But if

875
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 3: you're talking about creating a whole massive betting area. Going

876
00:49:37,280 --> 00:49:41,320
Speaker 3: pure switchgrass can again be a problem for the grand

877
00:49:41,360 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 3: scheme of things. Now, on that same note, there's guys

878
00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:51,320
Speaker 3: out there that will promote killing forbes in your switchgrass plantings,

879
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 3: because you again this whole idea of separating food value

880
00:49:54,560 --> 00:49:57,480
Speaker 3: from cover value to force movement, which I think is

881
00:49:57,480 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 3: a huge, huge negative as well. In what we see

882
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,680
Speaker 3: through that again the nutrient cycling is you've got native

883
00:50:05,719 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 3: grasses that have this incredible potential to harbor nutrients from real,

884
00:50:10,480 --> 00:50:12,759
Speaker 3: real deep in the soil. I mean, you've probably seen

885
00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:15,480
Speaker 3: the graphics or the pictures of a native grass with

886
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:19,080
Speaker 3: like a twelve foot root system. Yeah, and what happens

887
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 3: is those plants they're pulling, they're mining for minerals real

888
00:50:22,920 --> 00:50:25,439
Speaker 3: deep in the soil. They pull them up into their biomass,

889
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 3: and at the end of the year, you know, it's

890
00:50:27,880 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 3: a perennial plant, so at the end of the year,

891
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:31,359
Speaker 3: it dies off, or the top of it dies off,

892
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:33,760
Speaker 3: creates kind of a thatch layer, and all those nutrients

893
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 3: break down on the surface layer, and then your forbes

894
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 3: with a much shallower root system can sequester or pull

895
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 3: in those nutrients. And then when your deer come through,

896
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:46,399
Speaker 3: or you're ground nesting birds whatever they might be, they

897
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 3: feed on those plants, or maybe insects feed on those forbes,

898
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 3: and the birds feed on the insects. You know that

899
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,840
Speaker 3: again the cycle. Then those deer get the benefit from

900
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:58,840
Speaker 3: that native grass without actually feeding on that native grass.

901
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,400
Speaker 3: So if we're constantly killing all those forbes in those

902
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 3: plantings of native grasses, then we're just pulling up those nutrients,

903
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,200
Speaker 3: but they're not really cycling through that system again, and

904
00:51:08,239 --> 00:51:11,319
Speaker 3: it kind of cuts off that nutrient cycle. So that

905
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:13,719
Speaker 3: I guess I kind of went on that tangent there,

906
00:51:13,719 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 3: But again, there's there's plenty of alternatives. It's kind of

907
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 3: looking at your specific need. And another thing on the

908
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 3: screening aspect is, you know, there's two different ways to

909
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:28,120
Speaker 3: screen deer from seeing your access. One is screening you

910
00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 3: or your access route, and the other is just thickening

911
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,240
Speaker 3: up betting areas so that they can't see.

912
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 2: You know.

913
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 3: Bill Winkie talks a lot about that, having thicker betting areas,

914
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:38,919
Speaker 3: and he'll say that he would rather have the cover

915
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,120
Speaker 3: two feet in front of the deer than on the access.

916
00:51:42,800 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 3: I kind of use a hybrid approach most of the

917
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 3: time where we just do both right as much as possible.

918
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,560
Speaker 3: Then if if your screening gets blown down from a wet,

919
00:51:51,560 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 3: windy storm one day, you still have you know, the

920
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:57,040
Speaker 3: secondary cover in the betting area, and with that cover

921
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,239
Speaker 3: in the betting area, more often than not, you're gonna

922
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 3: have brows, which is going to provide food value at

923
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:03,040
Speaker 3: the same time. So it's kind of a win win there.

924
00:52:03,920 --> 00:52:10,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, so switchcrass you mentioned as a possible screen alternative

925
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,480
Speaker 2: that takes several of the years to get to a

926
00:52:13,520 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: decent height where it actually you know, blocks of deer's

927
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:24,000
Speaker 2: vision conifers, unless you you know, plant relatively mature trees

928
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:25,600
Speaker 2: and you've got a whole lot of money to do it.

929
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,000
Speaker 2: That can take time for something like that to grow

930
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 2: tall enough and thick enough to block off a food plot.

931
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 2: Let's hypothetically say, let's not talk hypotheticals, let's talk very specifically.

932
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 2: I used to plant a screen of Egyptian wheat and

933
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 2: or sorghum to screen in one of the food plots

934
00:52:44,280 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: I've got on a property I can hunt. I haven't

935
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,280
Speaker 2: done that in the past few years, just out of time,

936
00:52:51,400 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: but I've noticed less deer movement in those plots during

937
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: daylight as a result of it, especially mature bucks. I

938
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 2: used to have mature bucks in those plots feeling pretty

939
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 2: comfortable in daylight, and it's not happened as much since

940
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,360
Speaker 2: I stopped planting the screen. The problem being that this

941
00:53:07,480 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 2: area is visible towards some houses and some roads without

942
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:15,040
Speaker 2: that screen. So going into this year, I know I

943
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 2: have a little bit more time to get a screen

944
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:19,799
Speaker 2: in of some kind if I wanted to. But now

945
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:22,439
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, Man, I probably shouldn't do this Egyptian wheat

946
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: thing that I've done the past if I'm trying to

947
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 2: manage more in this kind of way, given the fact

948
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,200
Speaker 2: that I'm looking like, how can I get something? Or

949
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 2: is there what am I trying to say here, Tomas?

950
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 2: Is there anything I can do in a single year

951
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:40,520
Speaker 2: that will get me some level of screening. Knowing that

952
00:53:40,600 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 2: conifers will take time, switch grass will take time. I've

953
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:45,719
Speaker 2: heard from some folks that maybe there are some types

954
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:48,760
Speaker 2: of shrubs like a maybe a hybrid willow or something

955
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 2: that might be native and that might grow fast enough

956
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:55,799
Speaker 2: to get something. Is there anything you'd recommend to get

957
00:53:55,800 --> 00:53:58,319
Speaker 2: me started for that first year that will give me

958
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,239
Speaker 2: some level of screening a bit, or do I just

959
00:54:01,280 --> 00:54:03,200
Speaker 2: need to suck it up and be patient and know

960
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 2: that's going to take a few years.

961
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 3: Well, I think it goes back to the kind of

962
00:54:07,120 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 3: that mindset too, of not necessarily short term thinking or

963
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:16,040
Speaker 3: being overly patient, but some combination of the two. So

964
00:54:16,480 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 3: what I do with all my clients is we build

965
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:21,479
Speaker 3: out a five year timeline, and you know, rather than saying,

966
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 3: here's a plan, go do these things, we break it

967
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:27,439
Speaker 3: down into a five year timeline, and when it comes

968
00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: to the screening a lot of times what we will

969
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:34,480
Speaker 3: do is we will utilize sorgum, an annual grass like that,

970
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 3: and we'll plant the switch grass and or conifers, and

971
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,000
Speaker 3: then we'll just say, you know, you're doing the sorgum

972
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 3: and basically you're losing ten or twenty feet of your

973
00:54:44,480 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 3: food plot for the next three to five years until

974
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:50,959
Speaker 3: the switch fills in or the conifers reach the appropriate height.

975
00:54:51,080 --> 00:54:54,239
Speaker 3: And you know, with conifers, usually the first few years

976
00:54:54,280 --> 00:54:56,279
Speaker 3: they're not doing a lot, but usually by year five

977
00:54:56,360 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 3: or six they're up there in that five foot six

978
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 3: foot range, and then you gain that twenty feet of

979
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:05,799
Speaker 3: your food plot back. You know, the sorgum stuff. It's

980
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 3: not the worst thing in the world. But again to

981
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:12,720
Speaker 3: the sustainable side of things. Sorgum's you know, it's a grass,

982
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 3: so it consumes a lot of nitrogen when it grows.

983
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 3: And obviously when you're dealing with the grass that can

984
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,840
Speaker 3: grow fifteen feet tall in one growing season, it's pulling

985
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 3: a lot out of the soil and then it just

986
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 3: ends up. You know, there's a big load of carbon

987
00:55:24,120 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 3: on top of the soil, which pulls more nitrogen out

988
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,399
Speaker 3: of the soil as that carbon degrades. So it can

989
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:34,480
Speaker 3: be a pretty expensive or costly crop to plant year

990
00:55:34,520 --> 00:55:37,000
Speaker 3: after year after year, you know, unless you're in there

991
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,879
Speaker 3: fertilizing it with a heavy dose and nitrogen every year,

992
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:42,719
Speaker 3: which you know, most guys are using a synthetic fertilizer,

993
00:55:42,760 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 3: which again has its negative side effects. But back to

994
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,600
Speaker 3: that approach, what I generally would do is we'll say,

995
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 3: you know, we're gonna do the sorgum here, switch grass here,

996
00:55:53,160 --> 00:55:57,239
Speaker 3: conifers here, whatever it might be, and then once the

997
00:55:57,360 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 3: native or the perennial starts to the cover that we want,

998
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:03,200
Speaker 3: then we can get rid of that sorgum. Now, the

999
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:07,960
Speaker 3: only caveat there is, and this is true for all

1000
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:10,680
Speaker 3: of our land management. At the end of the day,

1001
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,839
Speaker 3: really what you need to focus on is how you're

1002
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 3: managing the sunlight and how it hits the ground, right,

1003
00:56:16,200 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 3: It's the harnessing the sun's energy. Ultimately, that's what the

1004
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,840
Speaker 3: world revolves around, is that energy for the sun. So

1005
00:56:22,920 --> 00:56:25,759
Speaker 3: if you're, for example, if you're trying to screen off

1006
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:28,600
Speaker 3: the north side of a food plot and then you

1007
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 3: go and you plant sorghum along that north side, you know,

1008
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:34,600
Speaker 3: and the sun's hitting that sorghum from the south first,

1009
00:56:34,920 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 3: then you're not going to get as much growth on

1010
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 3: your switchgrass if you're completely choking it out. So you

1011
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,440
Speaker 3: have to be mindful of that. And sometimes it might

1012
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 3: just mean you know, pushing that screen in a little

1013
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,399
Speaker 3: bit further giving some space for that switch grass, or

1014
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 3: going with a conifer, you know, like a white pine

1015
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,480
Speaker 3: or a spruce is going to be more shade tolerant

1016
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 3: and still grow with less sun versus a switch grass,

1017
00:56:56,800 --> 00:56:58,759
Speaker 3: which is going to grow the best with more sun.

1018
00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 3: So you know, a lot of situations you can get

1019
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 3: away with it. You just again you just kind of

1020
00:57:02,920 --> 00:57:06,400
Speaker 3: have to be mindful of where that Sorgum's casting the shadow.

1021
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 3: If that's going to delay stuff.

1022
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: Okay, so it's okay. Step one or point one one

1023
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 2: here is, don't add invasives to the landscape. If you're

1024
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:20,920
Speaker 2: planting screening cover, or if you're planting trees or a

1025
00:57:20,960 --> 00:57:23,640
Speaker 2: field of cover, whatever it is, let's let's choose a

1026
00:57:23,760 --> 00:57:27,560
Speaker 2: native species rather than an invasive non native. But what

1027
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:30,439
Speaker 2: about when we already have invasives on the landscape. We've

1028
00:57:30,440 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: got automotive all over the place, or we've got buckthorn

1029
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:35,520
Speaker 2: all over the place, or we've got some kind of

1030
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: grass that's come in. There's all sorts of those that

1031
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:43,800
Speaker 2: can choke out a landscape. If I were to walk

1032
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:46,200
Speaker 2: out on one of the properties that I've got access

1033
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 2: to and that I can do some management work on,

1034
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 2: I think I could spend the whole day pointing out

1035
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: different non natives here and there and everywhere, and it'd

1036
00:57:54,840 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 2: get really overwhelming. How do you recommend someone go about

1037
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,960
Speaker 2: prioritizing what to get rid of If the thing we're

1038
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 2: talking about next is how do we get rid of

1039
00:58:06,000 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 2: invasives that are there that are non native, that aren't

1040
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,560
Speaker 2: achieving the goals that you've been talking about. How do

1041
00:58:11,640 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 2: I know, like what to tackle. Is there some particular

1042
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 2: couple species that you really think, man, you got to

1043
00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 2: tackle those first, or is there some way to rank

1044
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:21,480
Speaker 2: order what's on your property, or how do you go

1045
00:58:21,520 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: about figuring out where to start, how much to try

1046
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: to do, what's the most impactful. What's your take on that,

1047
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 2: because it all seems very intimidating.

1048
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's it can be extremely overwhelming. And you know,

1049
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 3: the more you learn about invasives, the more you notice them.

1050
00:58:40,200 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 3: You know, at least I feel this all the time.

1051
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 3: You're driving down the road and you just look around

1052
00:58:43,600 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 3: and you see them everywhere, and it's depressing really at

1053
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 3: the end of the day, right you start to see

1054
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 3: all these things that you know, maybe just a few

1055
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,480
Speaker 3: years ago looked like a flourishing ecosystem with a lot

1056
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 3: of green in life. Then you realize, well, it's actually

1057
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:57,840
Speaker 3: all invasive. It's not as good as you know, we

1058
00:58:57,840 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: thought it was my approach, you know, ultimately, you know,

1059
00:59:02,800 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 3: again it kind of comes back to mindset. So first

1060
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 3: and foremost, you have to understand that at this point

1061
00:59:07,720 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 3: in the game, there's no such thing as one and

1062
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,200
Speaker 3: done when it comes to invasive species management. This is

1063
00:59:13,240 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 3: an ongoing battle, right, it's an ongoing war, I should say, right,

1064
00:59:17,600 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 3: every year is going to be a separate battle. So

1065
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:21,640
Speaker 3: the way that I try to do it with my

1066
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,880
Speaker 3: clients again, we're breaking things down into a timeline. And

1067
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 3: then generally what we do is we will look at

1068
00:59:26,880 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 3: the property and will break it down into separate management units.

1069
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 3: Generally we'll use logging roads, access trails or topography to

1070
00:59:35,360 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 3: break it down into units. And oftentimes we do that

1071
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 3: because those those land features help when we run fire

1072
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 3: through there. You know, it's an easy way to break

1073
00:59:45,320 --> 00:59:46,640
Speaker 3: it down from the bottom of the hill to this

1074
00:59:46,680 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 3: logging road or bottom hill, top hill, whatever it might be.

1075
00:59:49,760 --> 00:59:53,000
Speaker 3: So obviously that goes it kind of leads to what

1076
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 3: I was getting at with managing them and fire being

1077
00:59:55,800 --> 01:00:00,000
Speaker 3: a valuable tool. And I understand obviously people don't necessarily

1078
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 3: take the fire easily. You know, it's hard for the

1079
01:00:03,800 --> 01:00:07,440
Speaker 3: average person to accept that, and that's okay. So what

1080
01:00:07,480 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 3: we'll do is will break it down in the management units,

1081
01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,080
Speaker 3: and then I always like to start on the edge.

1082
01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 3: The edge habitat is some of the most productive habitat

1083
01:00:15,040 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 3: on a property. Edge habitat is also where most of

1084
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 3: your invasives are going to show up first. And at

1085
01:00:21,360 --> 01:00:24,360
Speaker 3: the same time, it's one of the easiest places to manage.

1086
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,440
Speaker 3: So if we break down a property into zones and

1087
01:00:27,480 --> 01:00:32,240
Speaker 3: say you're one, our project list is focus on improving

1088
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:36,160
Speaker 3: edge habitat on zone one and attack invasives and zone one.

1089
01:00:36,560 --> 01:00:39,480
Speaker 3: And what we'll do is we'll go in and we'll

1090
01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,840
Speaker 3: clean up that edge. We'll cut out all the invasives

1091
01:00:41,840 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 3: and treat them. You know, it's a relatively easy task,

1092
01:00:45,200 --> 01:00:47,919
Speaker 3: all things considered. You're just following a line, right, that's

1093
01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:50,240
Speaker 3: the beauty of that edge. You're not meandering through the

1094
01:00:50,240 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 3: woods and finding invasives at the turn of every corner.

1095
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:55,280
Speaker 3: So we attack that edge, we get that cleaned up.

1096
01:00:55,640 --> 01:00:59,120
Speaker 3: You know, maybe we are expanding on that edge, if

1097
01:00:59,160 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 3: we're trying to re claim some egg fields or something

1098
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,200
Speaker 3: and trying to add more habitat, or maybe it's an actual,

1099
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 3: you know, an active farm where we can't gain any

1100
01:01:07,200 --> 01:01:09,600
Speaker 3: more habitat. So we're trying to improve that edge and

1101
01:01:09,640 --> 01:01:12,640
Speaker 3: push it back into the woods and feather it. Right,

1102
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 3: So we'll go in, we'll clean that up, and then

1103
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:19,400
Speaker 3: if there aren't really many natives on the property, that's

1104
01:01:19,440 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 3: when we'll come in and we'll plant native shrubs. You know,

1105
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:23,840
Speaker 3: we want to look at our local ecotypes as much

1106
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:26,680
Speaker 3: as possible because they're going to do better in that environment.

1107
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 3: So we'll go in and we'll plant our native shrubs

1108
01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:32,640
Speaker 3: along that edge that what that's going to do is

1109
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 3: it's going to ensure that we have a seed source

1110
01:01:36,240 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 3: of natives in the area. And then we'll start pushing

1111
01:01:39,240 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 3: back into that property, into that zone. And you know,

1112
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 3: again year one, we're really trying to attack those invasives

1113
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,360
Speaker 3: before we open up that canopy and promote any growth,

1114
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:53,040
Speaker 3: any regeneration, because if we do that without attacking the invasives,

1115
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:55,280
Speaker 3: then more often than not, they're going to take over.

1116
01:01:55,760 --> 01:02:01,120
Speaker 3: But as we remove those invasives and create a situation

1117
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 3: for regeneration, now we have, you know, and fast forward

1118
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 3: a couple of years when our shrubs that we planted

1119
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:10,760
Speaker 3: on that edge are maturing and producing a seed source.

1120
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 3: Now we have the potential of birds feeding on the

1121
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 3: good stuff and carrying that back in that wood lot

1122
01:02:18,960 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 3: and spreading it throughout the woods to help fill in

1123
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,400
Speaker 3: that space that we're creating by removing those invasives. So

1124
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,880
Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest things that's overlooked is

1125
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,040
Speaker 3: going in and attacking invasives or removing them and then

1126
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 3: just sitting back and waiting for something to happen. That's

1127
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:36,680
Speaker 3: not the worst thing at the end of the day.

1128
01:02:36,960 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 3: But if we want to cover all of our bases

1129
01:02:39,920 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 3: ensuring that we have a seed source of more native varieties, again,

1130
01:02:44,640 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 3: we can kind of double up by improving that edge habitat.

1131
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,280
Speaker 3: So one, you know, we're ensuring that we're creating quality

1132
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:52,360
Speaker 3: habitat on that edge, which is where deer are going

1133
01:02:52,400 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 3: to spend a lot of time anyways, and it's also

1134
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 3: going to draw them up to the front of the property.

1135
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:58,880
Speaker 3: You know. With that, we start looking at betting structure

1136
01:02:59,320 --> 01:03:03,840
Speaker 3: and cover. The analogy I always use is the it's

1137
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 3: a multi layered cake. The base layer of that cake

1138
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 3: is our food source, the layer of cover is the icing,

1139
01:03:09,880 --> 01:03:11,840
Speaker 3: The next layer of that cake is the dough betting,

1140
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 3: and then to stack another layer on for buck betting,

1141
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,479
Speaker 3: we have to have another layer of icing or cover.

1142
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 3: So if we have really good edge habitat, we hold

1143
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:20,520
Speaker 3: our does closer to the food source, which gives our

1144
01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 3: bucks more space and the property. So that's just kind

1145
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 3: of the strategy the hunting strategy side of things, but

1146
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:28,840
Speaker 3: again setting it up where we're providing a quality seed

1147
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 3: source going back into that property. And then another thing,

1148
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,919
Speaker 3: when you're looking at improving betting areas, we're doing clear

1149
01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 3: cuts of any sort. I really like to leave a

1150
01:03:40,800 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 3: handful of trees stand in those clear cuts. You know,

1151
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:46,920
Speaker 3: if you have a couple good productive oaks, obviously you've

1152
01:03:46,920 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 3: got a good seed source there a valuable food source

1153
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,960
Speaker 3: as well, so we'll leave those. If there are no productive,

1154
01:03:53,320 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 3: mass producing trees in that vicinity of that clear cut,

1155
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: then we'll leave a couple of trees stand and girdle

1156
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 3: them and let them die. But that encourages those birds

1157
01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 3: to take those seeds into those clear cuts and spread

1158
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:07,680
Speaker 3: them in the areas that we want, and then again

1159
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:11,760
Speaker 3: we get more natives in that seed bank. But we

1160
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:15,000
Speaker 3: have to always ensure that we're managing for those invasives

1161
01:04:15,080 --> 01:04:17,919
Speaker 3: because again there's no one and done. But that's where

1162
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:22,200
Speaker 3: fire is effective. You know, once our natives are more

1163
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:25,920
Speaker 3: established within a couple of years, they can handle fire

1164
01:04:26,240 --> 01:04:28,800
Speaker 3: pretty well. Most species of native shrubs can be burned

1165
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,520
Speaker 3: off or mowed off, top killed in their dormant they've

1166
01:04:31,520 --> 01:04:33,680
Speaker 3: got enough energy reserves in their roots, so they can

1167
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:36,480
Speaker 3: push up new growth that year, and that growth is

1168
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 3: more palatable to deer and wildlife anyway, So it's advantageous

1169
01:04:39,880 --> 01:04:53,200
Speaker 3: to cycle through that way.

1170
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 2: You mentioned the possibility when you're doing that edgework of

1171
01:04:56,440 --> 01:05:00,840
Speaker 2: adding native shrubs eventually. I know this is casion dependent,

1172
01:05:01,040 --> 01:05:05,160
Speaker 2: but are there any particular favorites of yours in your region,

1173
01:05:05,280 --> 01:05:09,680
Speaker 2: you know, Upper Midwest, that are particularly productive and useful

1174
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 2: for wildlife that you might recommend.

1175
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:16,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love the dogwoods. Dogwoods are great, Viburnums are great.

1176
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 3: You know, there's quite a wide variety within both of

1177
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:26,640
Speaker 3: those families. Elderberries, you know, the red and black elderberry.

1178
01:05:26,960 --> 01:05:29,720
Speaker 3: You know, the red elderberry are more shade tolerant and

1179
01:05:29,720 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 3: they're more productive in the shade. And that's why the

1180
01:05:31,920 --> 01:05:34,600
Speaker 3: dogwoods are nice too, because they're relatively shade tolerant. But

1181
01:05:35,000 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 3: you know you've got red osier dogwood, silky dogwood, gray dogwood,

1182
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,800
Speaker 3: there's some bigger flowering dogwood stuff like that, So those

1183
01:05:42,800 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 3: are advantageous. You know, it kind of comes down to

1184
01:05:47,880 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: that sun exposure again at the end of the day.

1185
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 3: You know, like plum American plums a really good shrub,

1186
01:05:53,040 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 3: but it needs a lot of sun to do well.

1187
01:05:55,320 --> 01:05:57,040
Speaker 3: If you have it tucked in a hedgerow or something

1188
01:05:57,080 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 3: where it's only getting a couple hours of sun a day,

1189
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 3: it'll grow, but it's not as productive. So the vibernums,

1190
01:06:02,720 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 3: you know, there's a lot of plants within that family

1191
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 3: that are very productive for the birds. Nine bark is

1192
01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 3: a good one. You know, that's going to be a

1193
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 3: more shade tolerant shrub. And a lot of times I

1194
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,360
Speaker 3: like to look around on those properties too, and if

1195
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:21,800
Speaker 3: you start seeing any native shrubs, which unfortunately, i'd say

1196
01:06:21,840 --> 01:06:24,480
Speaker 3: probably fifty percent of the properties I'm on have no

1197
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 3: noticeable native shrubs at this point because they've been completely

1198
01:06:27,320 --> 01:06:29,360
Speaker 3: choked out. But what we'll find is a lot of

1199
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:32,400
Speaker 3: times just going in and clearing out the invasives and

1200
01:06:32,480 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 3: managing those, all of a sudden, you see some of

1201
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 3: these natives pop back. So there's generally some seeds in

1202
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 3: that seed bank waiting for the opportunity to grow, But

1203
01:06:41,720 --> 01:06:43,280
Speaker 3: again you have to give them an opportunity at the

1204
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,760
Speaker 3: end of the day and create space for them.

1205
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:51,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. So so you mentioned a couple different ways of

1206
01:06:51,720 --> 01:06:57,640
Speaker 2: creating or enhancing cover stuff like feathering edges, stuff like clearcutting.

1207
01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 2: We've talked about screening, but I've heard you talk about

1208
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:09,040
Speaker 2: the way that mature bucks utilize or react to good

1209
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:12,640
Speaker 2: native covers, kind of like a Plinko board. Could you

1210
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:17,040
Speaker 2: explain that analogy and the importance of having that good

1211
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: cover when it comes to hunting. And then if there

1212
01:07:20,480 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 2: are any other kind of favorite ways that you like

1213
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:26,040
Speaker 2: to approach adding or enhancing cover that we haven't talked about,

1214
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 2: could you mention those.

1215
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, the plinko board analogy is a good one,

1216
01:07:31,680 --> 01:07:33,560
Speaker 3: and I still keep telling myself I'm going to build

1217
01:07:33,600 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 3: one of those to give a visual demonstration. But for

1218
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 3: those of you listening, if you can visualize the plinko

1219
01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:42,080
Speaker 3: board right, You've got a flat board with a bunch

1220
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:43,920
Speaker 3: of pegs on it. You drop a disk or a

1221
01:07:43,960 --> 01:07:46,360
Speaker 3: ball from the top, and it bounces around, and you know,

1222
01:07:46,400 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 3: it just finds a space to drop down on the

1223
01:07:49,240 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 3: next level until it works its way all the way

1224
01:07:50,920 --> 01:07:53,400
Speaker 3: to the bottom. If you have a property that doesn't

1225
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 3: have a lot of cover or a lot of food,

1226
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,240
Speaker 3: then those deer generally move through it very quickly, so

1227
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,680
Speaker 3: that all you drop from the top it only bounces

1228
01:08:01,720 --> 01:08:04,080
Speaker 3: off a couple of pegs that it's relatively quick from

1229
01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:06,600
Speaker 3: the top to the bottom. When you start to add

1230
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,840
Speaker 3: cover in there, especially when you add cover with food value,

1231
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,959
Speaker 3: then you really slow down that deer movement and hold

1232
01:08:13,000 --> 01:08:15,760
Speaker 3: deer because they have the sense of security along with

1233
01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:18,120
Speaker 3: the food value, and that food is ultimately what's going

1234
01:08:18,160 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 3: to hold them in an area and also define or

1235
01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:24,240
Speaker 3: drive the movement during you know, the crepuscular periods of

1236
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 3: the day of morning and night. And adding the two

1237
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,120
Speaker 3: or the combination of the two is huge for mature

1238
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:37,400
Speaker 3: bucks because mature bucks don't really move by random, right.

1239
01:08:37,439 --> 01:08:40,000
Speaker 3: They're always very tactful with their movements. And if you

1240
01:08:40,040 --> 01:08:44,000
Speaker 3: watch them when they move through the woods undisturbed, they're

1241
01:08:44,040 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 3: always nibbling on something as they go. And I think

1242
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:49,639
Speaker 3: that's a big reason why a lot of times you're

1243
01:08:49,680 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 3: not getting pictures of mature bucks consistently on the same

1244
01:08:52,600 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 3: trail as other deer. You know, those doughs are much

1245
01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:56,600
Speaker 3: more linear with their movement. They get out of the

1246
01:08:56,600 --> 01:08:58,920
Speaker 3: betting area, they take that same trail out to the

1247
01:08:58,920 --> 01:09:01,600
Speaker 3: food source gorge themselves. Maybe they go back in the

1248
01:09:01,640 --> 01:09:03,360
Speaker 3: woods bed down, Maybe they bed down in the middle

1249
01:09:03,360 --> 01:09:06,360
Speaker 3: of the food plot. Bucks don't do that nearly as frequently.

1250
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,679
Speaker 3: They are very tactful and they can't take the same

1251
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 3: trails all the other deer because it's already browsed off.

1252
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:17,040
Speaker 3: So again, adding that cover and food with it is

1253
01:09:17,120 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 3: going to ensure that those deer move through the property

1254
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:24,760
Speaker 3: a little bit slower. They're unpressured and they just kind

1255
01:09:24,760 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 3: of meander through and they feed a little bit here,

1256
01:09:26,840 --> 01:09:29,320
Speaker 3: they feed a little bit there. If they sense any threats,

1257
01:09:29,600 --> 01:09:33,439
Speaker 3: you know, they see, they smell, they hear something, then

1258
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:35,880
Speaker 3: they just freeze up. They're still in cover. They've got

1259
01:09:35,880 --> 01:09:39,640
Speaker 3: no problem there. So that's a big, big part of

1260
01:09:39,800 --> 01:09:42,639
Speaker 3: holding mature bucks on your property is just having adequate

1261
01:09:42,680 --> 01:09:46,040
Speaker 3: food and cover. Again, that's the element of habitat. You know,

1262
01:09:46,080 --> 01:09:50,560
Speaker 3: if you have topography or you know, fluctuations in topography,

1263
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:52,800
Speaker 3: that is the greatest form of cover there is. So

1264
01:09:52,840 --> 01:09:55,760
Speaker 3: you're going to hold deer with that. But if you

1265
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:58,000
Speaker 3: add the food value in there, it increases the amount

1266
01:09:58,000 --> 01:10:00,800
Speaker 3: of time that they spend there and the more consistent

1267
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:03,680
Speaker 3: amount of time that they're there. And as far as

1268
01:10:03,720 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 3: you know, improving cover, good timbersand improvement, you know, you

1269
01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,880
Speaker 3: can't can't really beat it at the end of the day.

1270
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,599
Speaker 3: As far as regeneration goes expanding edges, one of my

1271
01:10:15,640 --> 01:10:18,439
Speaker 3: favorite things to do if we are expanding an edge

1272
01:10:19,120 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 3: is while the grasses are dormant. You know, right now

1273
01:10:21,920 --> 01:10:23,519
Speaker 3: is actually a good time because we don't have any

1274
01:10:23,520 --> 01:10:26,080
Speaker 3: snow on the ground, it's not really frozen. Run a

1275
01:10:26,120 --> 01:10:28,280
Speaker 3: real heavy disc through there a couple of times to

1276
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,479
Speaker 3: stir up that native seed bank, and then we'll still

1277
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 3: sometimes go you know, again, it depends on the rest

1278
01:10:34,520 --> 01:10:36,240
Speaker 3: of the habitat. We still might go in and plug

1279
01:10:36,240 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 3: a handful of shrubs in there, but otherwise we're just

1280
01:10:38,040 --> 01:10:41,479
Speaker 3: letting it fill in with native regeneration, which is going

1281
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:43,280
Speaker 3: to go through succession. You know, it's going to end

1282
01:10:43,360 --> 01:10:46,920
Speaker 3: up start out with a bunch of forbes and annuals

1283
01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:49,080
Speaker 3: and then you know, might evolve to more brambles and

1284
01:10:49,120 --> 01:10:51,600
Speaker 3: eventually fill in with trees and shrubs, and then we

1285
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:53,360
Speaker 3: just have to decide how we want to manage it.

1286
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 3: But deeper in the woods, again, it just comes down

1287
01:10:57,080 --> 01:11:01,360
Speaker 3: to that solar management, right punching holes in that canopy

1288
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 3: that are big enough where it's not just one year

1289
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:08,679
Speaker 3: there's light on the ground, it's you know, enough space

1290
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 3: where when the trees surrounding that canopy or that hole

1291
01:11:12,400 --> 01:11:15,160
Speaker 3: in the canopy start to release and fill in, it

1292
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:18,160
Speaker 3: doesn't just fill that hole right away, and then you know,

1293
01:11:18,200 --> 01:11:20,160
Speaker 3: we go back in there five ten years later and

1294
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:22,000
Speaker 3: we don't really see the progress that we want. So

1295
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:26,000
Speaker 3: with that, you know, again solar management. If you have

1296
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,880
Speaker 3: a hill, if you're on the south facing slope or

1297
01:11:30,200 --> 01:11:32,920
Speaker 3: you know, east west, whatever it might be, you have

1298
01:11:32,960 --> 01:11:36,320
Speaker 3: a huge advantage because the way that that land is pitched.

1299
01:11:36,320 --> 01:11:37,880
Speaker 3: You know, a lot of times you can cut trees

1300
01:11:38,200 --> 01:11:40,600
Speaker 3: on the crown or that hill are going down the

1301
01:11:40,640 --> 01:11:42,679
Speaker 3: hill and you get a lot more sun deeper into

1302
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:46,000
Speaker 3: that forest on the top. Versus flat land, you have

1303
01:11:46,040 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 3: to cut a much bigger opening. And in most situations,

1304
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 3: you know, and most foresters I deal with, they'll tell

1305
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:54,840
Speaker 3: you on flat land minimum of an acre if you're

1306
01:11:54,880 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 3: going to open up the canopy or do kind of

1307
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:59,519
Speaker 3: a clear cut type situation. But again, it all kind

1308
01:11:59,520 --> 01:12:02,360
Speaker 3: of comes back to also what's growing in that area,

1309
01:12:02,600 --> 01:12:06,640
Speaker 3: because like, for example, if you're trying to regenerate a

1310
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 3: popular stand or aspen, then you really need to make

1311
01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:12,439
Speaker 3: sure you're getting as much sun in there as possible,

1312
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 3: because it's not going to regenerate without full sun, and

1313
01:12:14,880 --> 01:12:16,840
Speaker 3: then other things fill in and choke it out, and

1314
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 3: then you kind of defeat the purpose of your your

1315
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:20,639
Speaker 3: management technique there.

1316
01:12:22,680 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's a lot too. That's a lot to

1317
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:32,200
Speaker 2: think about on the cover side. And I guess that

1318
01:12:32,640 --> 01:12:36,680
Speaker 2: the obvious follow up then is are there ways to

1319
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 2: achieve the other half of the habitat equation in a

1320
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:44,680
Speaker 2: similar way you talked about the ninety ten approach. You

1321
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,000
Speaker 2: take maybe to ninety percent native, ten percent a little

1322
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 2: bit of flexibility I'm imagining, I think you mentioned this.

1323
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:53,640
Speaker 2: A lot of that ten percent then goes to the

1324
01:12:53,640 --> 01:12:58,559
Speaker 2: food side of the equation. Food plots in particular, it

1325
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:01,200
Speaker 2: sounds like food plots in that man seen food plots

1326
01:13:01,200 --> 01:13:03,360
Speaker 2: are still a part of your game, despite the fact

1327
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,839
Speaker 2: that many times they require, you know, introducing a species

1328
01:13:06,880 --> 01:13:11,080
Speaker 2: that's not necessarily native to the landscape. So what's your

1329
01:13:11,080 --> 01:13:13,920
Speaker 2: take on using food plots. How do we do it

1330
01:13:14,000 --> 01:13:18,600
Speaker 2: in a way that is more healthy for the overall ecosystem,

1331
01:13:19,840 --> 01:13:25,479
Speaker 2: not just white tail focused. What are your principles of

1332
01:13:25,880 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 2: sustainable food plot usage in this kind of context.

1333
01:13:31,360 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 3: The first thing is food plots should supplement your habitat, right,

1334
01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:40,880
Speaker 3: they shouldn't be the sole source of food on the

1335
01:13:40,920 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 3: property because if that is your approach, it's unrealistic because

1336
01:13:47,760 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 3: deer going to consume those food plots pretty quickly, you know.

1337
01:13:51,120 --> 01:13:52,639
Speaker 3: So again, you don't want to be in a situation

1338
01:13:52,760 --> 01:13:55,959
Speaker 3: where let's just use a forty acre property for example,

1339
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 3: if you have a forty acre property and half of

1340
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 3: it has a potent be a food plot and the

1341
01:14:00,960 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 3: other half has potential to be cover but that cover

1342
01:14:03,479 --> 01:14:06,839
Speaker 3: it doesn't providing food value, You're probably going to require

1343
01:14:06,880 --> 01:14:09,559
Speaker 3: all twenty acres of that in food to support that herd.

1344
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 3: And at the end of the day, that's kind of

1345
01:14:11,800 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 3: the weak link in the situation versus having good quality

1346
01:14:15,040 --> 01:14:18,040
Speaker 3: habitat that provides brows. You know, and white tailed deer

1347
01:14:18,040 --> 01:14:19,720
Speaker 3: are going to get eighty to eighty five percent of

1348
01:14:19,720 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 3: their nutrition from the brows. You know, they prefer the brows,

1349
01:14:23,120 --> 01:14:25,680
Speaker 3: they need the brows. And you know a big part

1350
01:14:25,760 --> 01:14:28,360
Speaker 3: of that too with that browse I should touch on

1351
01:14:28,520 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 3: is when you start looking at those native perennial plants, shrubs, grasses, forbes, whatever. Again,

1352
01:14:34,479 --> 01:14:37,799
Speaker 3: in that nutrient cycle, they have a much deeper root system,

1353
01:14:38,400 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 3: so if we address the needs of those deer, and

1354
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 3: you know, let's go back to the ultimate goal here

1355
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:50,080
Speaker 3: of killing the biggest buck we possibly can. Right again,

1356
01:14:50,160 --> 01:14:52,120
Speaker 3: this is kind of the guys or the excuse of

1357
01:14:52,360 --> 01:14:55,600
Speaker 3: good quality management for our habitat. If we want to

1358
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:57,680
Speaker 3: produce the biggest deer, we need to get a lot

1359
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 3: of vitamins and minerals into those deer. Native habitat with

1360
01:15:01,080 --> 01:15:03,200
Speaker 3: a deeper root system is going to mine down and

1361
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:06,000
Speaker 3: pull up a lot more minerals once we start getting

1362
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:08,920
Speaker 3: in those food plots. Those food plots should just supplement

1363
01:15:08,960 --> 01:15:12,560
Speaker 3: that habitat in a way that it creates an attractive,

1364
01:15:13,200 --> 01:15:17,000
Speaker 3: nutrient dense and luscious food source to create that consistent

1365
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 3: movement through the most huntable areas on the property, you know.

1366
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:24,479
Speaker 3: So there are situations, in fact, even on the property

1367
01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,920
Speaker 3: that I hunt on my own most of the time,

1368
01:15:27,160 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 3: a lot of my food plots aren't very huntable just

1369
01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:33,000
Speaker 3: given the location. But I'm also competing with four hundred

1370
01:15:33,000 --> 01:15:36,719
Speaker 3: plus acres of alfalfa, So the attractiveness of those food

1371
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:39,200
Speaker 3: plots doesn't really increase until late in the season on

1372
01:15:39,280 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 3: the attractiveness of the alfalfa declines. Right, It's all a

1373
01:15:42,479 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 3: relative scale, but on most my client properties, you know,

1374
01:15:47,200 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 3: again assessing that overall situation, we're looking to add food

1375
01:15:51,120 --> 01:15:54,479
Speaker 3: specifically in the most huntable areas, or maybe not in

1376
01:15:54,520 --> 01:15:58,120
Speaker 3: the exact area we want to hunt, but drawing movement

1377
01:15:58,240 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 3: through a huntable area to that food plot. Right, You're

1378
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:04,440
Speaker 3: always going to have the best or increase your opportunities

1379
01:16:04,680 --> 01:16:08,559
Speaker 3: by reducing pressure when you hunt the transitional area between

1380
01:16:08,600 --> 01:16:10,680
Speaker 3: food and bedding, because then you can get in and

1381
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:12,519
Speaker 3: out without bumping deer. At the end of the day.

1382
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,360
Speaker 3: When it comes to the food plots themselves, kind of

1383
01:16:16,360 --> 01:16:20,120
Speaker 3: the same concepts, except to your point, we're not really

1384
01:16:20,120 --> 01:16:23,519
Speaker 3: planting natives in those situations, but they are what I

1385
01:16:23,520 --> 01:16:27,479
Speaker 3: would refer to as more intensively managed situations. So we're

1386
01:16:27,479 --> 01:16:31,120
Speaker 3: not really planting stuff that's you know, at risk of

1387
01:16:31,320 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 3: escaping the confinements of our food plot, like you know,

1388
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:36,600
Speaker 3: an invasive shrub or something that's going to go to

1389
01:16:36,600 --> 01:16:39,840
Speaker 3: seed and spread by the birds. But we are intensively

1390
01:16:39,920 --> 01:16:45,080
Speaker 3: managing that primarily for the nutrient content of the plant,

1391
01:16:45,479 --> 01:16:48,599
Speaker 3: you know. And that's where I fold back on the

1392
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:51,479
Speaker 3: egg industry. You know, the practices within the egg industry

1393
01:16:51,520 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 3: for that because they've obviously perfected that when they have

1394
01:16:54,960 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 3: to produce a profit at the end of the day.

1395
01:16:57,320 --> 01:17:01,240
Speaker 3: So I come from a dairy farming background, and I've

1396
01:17:01,280 --> 01:17:04,160
Speaker 3: actually in the last couple of years now worked more

1397
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:07,439
Speaker 3: and more with companies that are involved in that space

1398
01:17:07,479 --> 01:17:09,760
Speaker 3: because they have the same goals at the end of

1399
01:17:09,760 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 3: the day. Right, when you look at the similarities on

1400
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 3: a physiological standpoint from a dairy cow to a white

1401
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:18,800
Speaker 3: tailed deer, their nutritional demands are very very similar. And

1402
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,280
Speaker 3: so we can look at how do we manage the

1403
01:17:21,280 --> 01:17:24,000
Speaker 3: soils on dairy farm to produce the highest quality forage

1404
01:17:24,000 --> 01:17:28,720
Speaker 3: for dairy cattle and utilize those practices for deer. Now,

1405
01:17:28,760 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 3: on the other side of that scale, we don't necessarily

1406
01:17:30,600 --> 01:17:33,160
Speaker 3: want to manage our food plots the same way that

1407
01:17:33,240 --> 01:17:36,920
Speaker 3: a cash cropper manages his fields, because he's managing for

1408
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:39,720
Speaker 3: a yield and a yield alone, Right, And we look

1409
01:17:39,720 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 3: at the statistics. I think most people know at this

1410
01:17:42,520 --> 01:17:45,800
Speaker 3: point that if you take a cab of corn or

1411
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,639
Speaker 3: a lot of the produce in this country the way

1412
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:51,720
Speaker 3: it's farm and compare it to the produce in a

1413
01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:55,320
Speaker 3: European country, or even what the produce was twenty years ago.

1414
01:17:55,880 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 3: The nutrient content is anywhere from twenty to forty percent

1415
01:17:59,360 --> 01:18:02,400
Speaker 3: less than what it was. So if we want to

1416
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 3: again get as much nutrition in those deer to grow

1417
01:18:05,880 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 3: the biggest, healthiest deer, and at the same time, our

1418
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:12,559
Speaker 3: ultimate goal with that food plot is the attractive power

1419
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:15,639
Speaker 3: or utilizing that as an attractive tool to pull deer

1420
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:20,480
Speaker 3: through certain areas. Nutrition equals attraction. Deer are not attracted

1421
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:25,960
Speaker 3: to soybeans or brassicas or alfalfa. They are attracted to

1422
01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:30,080
Speaker 3: the palatability or the nutrient density of that plant. Deer,

1423
01:18:30,800 --> 01:18:34,360
Speaker 3: I've said it before, right, they're very diverse creatures. They

1424
01:18:34,400 --> 01:18:38,800
Speaker 3: feed on diversity. Are you familiar with doctor Fred Provenza

1425
01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:41,080
Speaker 3: if you ever read any of his stuff I have not,

1426
01:18:42,880 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 3: he'd be a good one to dig into. I think

1427
01:18:46,640 --> 01:18:50,400
Speaker 3: his book is called Nourishment, but he talks about some

1428
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:53,920
Speaker 3: studies that they did or he was involved with monitoring

1429
01:18:53,960 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 3: domestic populations of sheep as well as wild populations as sheep,

1430
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,200
Speaker 3: and how they found this cultural as to these herds

1431
01:19:01,600 --> 01:19:06,240
Speaker 3: where the more mature animals within that group would teach

1432
01:19:06,320 --> 01:19:09,240
Speaker 3: the younger animals that they could feed on certain plants

1433
01:19:10,360 --> 01:19:13,240
Speaker 3: that we thought were completely toxic to all animals, but

1434
01:19:13,320 --> 01:19:15,759
Speaker 3: by feeding on a little bit of a certain plant,

1435
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:18,439
Speaker 3: it would change the biology of their stomach enough where

1436
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:20,760
Speaker 3: they could feed on more of another plant, both of

1437
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:23,519
Speaker 3: which being toxic, but it changes the biology of their

1438
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:26,800
Speaker 3: stomach to where now they can digest it. And you know,

1439
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:31,120
Speaker 3: whether it's a medicinal reason or nutritional reason, you know,

1440
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:33,519
Speaker 3: there's a lot, a lot that goes into that research,

1441
01:19:33,560 --> 01:19:35,519
Speaker 3: and I could go on for days about that stuff.

1442
01:19:35,520 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 3: But the diversity aspect is very important. You know, when

1443
01:19:38,120 --> 01:19:41,000
Speaker 3: we start looking at a food plot, whenever you plant

1444
01:19:41,160 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 3: a diverse planting, you're far better off than planting a

1445
01:19:44,040 --> 01:19:48,320
Speaker 3: monoculture on every aspect of it. Right first and foremost,

1446
01:19:48,479 --> 01:19:51,080
Speaker 3: the soil health is the most important aspect of it.

1447
01:19:51,120 --> 01:19:54,960
Speaker 3: So having diversity with that with those plantings brings diversity

1448
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:57,519
Speaker 3: to the nutrients in that soil. You know, some plants

1449
01:19:57,560 --> 01:19:59,840
Speaker 3: are going to harbor nutrients and break down other plants

1450
01:19:59,880 --> 01:20:02,439
Speaker 3: are going to utilize those nutrients. So instead of having

1451
01:20:02,560 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 3: one type of plant that pulls everything out of the

1452
01:20:04,400 --> 01:20:07,120
Speaker 3: soil that it needs and not really putting anything back,

1453
01:20:07,479 --> 01:20:09,960
Speaker 3: you have that balance with the diversity. And at the

1454
01:20:09,960 --> 01:20:12,840
Speaker 3: same time, from a hunting aspect, it's like well, are

1455
01:20:12,840 --> 01:20:14,920
Speaker 3: deer going to crave brascas today or are they going

1456
01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:17,360
Speaker 3: to crave clover? Well, if I have that all mixed together,

1457
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 3: not only does the clover as a legume feed nitrogen

1458
01:20:21,400 --> 01:20:23,840
Speaker 3: to the brassica plant, but now if the deer is

1459
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:26,040
Speaker 3: showing up for clover or they're showing up for brascas,

1460
01:20:26,080 --> 01:20:28,000
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter. We're all going to the same party

1461
01:20:28,000 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 3: at the end of the day. So it simplifies things there.

1462
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:33,200
Speaker 3: But it all comes down to the nutrients and the

1463
01:20:33,280 --> 01:20:37,760
Speaker 3: nutrient management in those food plots. So the more sustainable

1464
01:20:38,320 --> 01:20:42,360
Speaker 3: approach that I take is first and foremost trying to

1465
01:20:42,400 --> 01:20:46,400
Speaker 3: wean off of chemicals and synthetic inputs. It's probably one

1466
01:20:46,479 --> 01:20:50,559
Speaker 3: of the most important aspects of it. And I'm not

1467
01:20:50,960 --> 01:20:54,719
Speaker 3: entirely anti chemical. I think they're a very valuable management tool.

1468
01:20:55,320 --> 01:21:01,599
Speaker 3: But there's a difference between implementation or established and an

1469
01:21:01,640 --> 01:21:04,200
Speaker 3: annual routine, and we always strive to have an annual

1470
01:21:04,280 --> 01:21:07,280
Speaker 3: routine that's as chemical free as possible. And you know,

1471
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 3: there's a lot of reasons for that. One of the

1472
01:21:09,400 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 3: biggest things, you know, obviously one of the most commonly

1473
01:21:12,120 --> 01:21:17,880
Speaker 3: used chemicals the food plotters utilize is glyphosate. Well, we

1474
01:21:17,960 --> 01:21:21,320
Speaker 3: all look at that as a very effective, broad spectrum herbicide.

1475
01:21:22,000 --> 01:21:26,840
Speaker 3: But glyphosate was originally patented as a mineral kelator to

1476
01:21:27,000 --> 01:21:30,759
Speaker 3: descale boiler systems and clear out pipes. So what it does,

1477
01:21:31,280 --> 01:21:34,840
Speaker 3: you know, the keelation process. If you just think of

1478
01:21:34,920 --> 01:21:37,720
Speaker 3: like a magnet right now, how magnet can pick up

1479
01:21:37,760 --> 01:21:41,479
Speaker 3: tiny little particles of metal. That's what chelation is. So

1480
01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:43,880
Speaker 3: that glyphosate, every time you spray it on the soil,

1481
01:21:44,200 --> 01:21:47,280
Speaker 3: it chlates minerals in the soil, and now those minerals

1482
01:21:47,320 --> 01:21:50,160
Speaker 3: are no longer bioavailable to the plants, and therefore they're

1483
01:21:50,160 --> 01:21:53,960
Speaker 3: no longer bioavailable to the animals consuming those plants. So again,

1484
01:21:53,960 --> 01:21:56,960
Speaker 3: if we go back to growing the biggest, healthiest deer,

1485
01:21:57,000 --> 01:21:59,759
Speaker 3: we want to get as much nutrition in them as possible.

1486
01:22:00,120 --> 01:22:02,960
Speaker 3: At the same time, glaf state's an antibiotic, so it

1487
01:22:03,120 --> 01:22:05,599
Speaker 3: disrupts the microbiome of the deer if they go and

1488
01:22:05,640 --> 01:22:08,559
Speaker 3: feed on anything that you spray and even in the soil.

1489
01:22:20,640 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 2: So if we want to reduce our synthetic inputs, so

1490
01:22:23,840 --> 01:22:27,559
Speaker 2: that means reducing our use of herbicide and reducing our

1491
01:22:27,680 --> 01:22:31,360
Speaker 2: use of you know, chemical fertilizers, which is for most everyone,

1492
01:22:31,400 --> 01:22:37,400
Speaker 2: that's just fertilizer in general. What what's like the alternative,

1493
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:41,960
Speaker 2: what's the more or what's the sustainable moderation of that.

1494
01:22:42,840 --> 01:22:45,439
Speaker 2: I know you mentioned like making it not an annual practice.

1495
01:22:45,479 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 2: I've tried to do this. I've tried to reduce my

1496
01:22:47,960 --> 01:22:51,479
Speaker 2: use and I've achieved that to a degree as I've

1497
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 2: instituted a number of more regenerative principles to my food plots.

1498
01:22:55,360 --> 01:22:57,600
Speaker 2: But I still I'm still kind of like needing to

1499
01:22:57,680 --> 01:23:00,400
Speaker 2: knock down the weed girls at least once with herb side.

1500
01:23:01,680 --> 01:23:05,880
Speaker 2: And even though I'm doing several cycles of like two

1501
01:23:05,960 --> 01:23:09,120
Speaker 2: cycles of plantings throughout the year and I'm never trying

1502
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,559
Speaker 2: to wipe clear the whole menu off and I'm trying

1503
01:23:11,560 --> 01:23:14,400
Speaker 2: to maintain you know, cover on the soil, and I'm

1504
01:23:14,439 --> 01:23:16,760
Speaker 2: trying to follow the principles of soil health as much

1505
01:23:16,760 --> 01:23:20,760
Speaker 2: as possible, I still seem to need some degree of

1506
01:23:20,800 --> 01:23:24,120
Speaker 2: additional fertilizer to get that boost, especially when you know

1507
01:23:24,160 --> 01:23:26,160
Speaker 2: it's dry, we're not getting out of water, and the

1508
01:23:26,200 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 2: crops struggling, and I'm like, man, I've got a failure

1509
01:23:28,439 --> 01:23:30,080
Speaker 2: of a food plot coming in here, and so I

1510
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:31,880
Speaker 2: then feel like I got to put something on there,

1511
01:23:33,000 --> 01:23:34,840
Speaker 2: so I've yet to really knock it out of the park.

1512
01:23:34,920 --> 01:23:38,160
Speaker 2: Is what I'm getting at. Is that just a reality

1513
01:23:38,240 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 2: of this that it's going to be a challenge and

1514
01:23:40,160 --> 01:23:42,479
Speaker 2: sometimes it'll be better, sometimes it'll be worse. Or is

1515
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:47,080
Speaker 2: there some better way to do it than what I'm describing.

1516
01:23:50,040 --> 01:23:54,840
Speaker 3: I don't think there's a silver bullet solution, right, So

1517
01:23:55,680 --> 01:23:59,600
Speaker 3: I just want to preface this with that because you know,

1518
01:23:59,600 --> 01:24:03,080
Speaker 3: I'm going to explain how we approach it, but it's

1519
01:24:04,120 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 3: it's a relatively simple approach. But at the same time,

1520
01:24:07,000 --> 01:24:09,920
Speaker 3: every situation, situation is unique, right, So for me to

1521
01:24:09,920 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 3: just say do these things and you can wean off

1522
01:24:13,200 --> 01:24:17,599
Speaker 3: of all your synthetics, it's probably very achievable in your situation,

1523
01:24:17,720 --> 01:24:20,280
Speaker 3: but maybe you have to alter the approach. So you know,

1524
01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:24,679
Speaker 3: I mentioned before that whenever you have a systems approach,

1525
01:24:24,760 --> 01:24:28,520
Speaker 3: you're always far better off than relying on one specific

1526
01:24:29,040 --> 01:24:32,160
Speaker 3: aspect of whatever it is that you're trying to accomplish.

1527
01:24:32,200 --> 01:24:35,519
Speaker 3: And at the same time, let's bring back the whole

1528
01:24:35,520 --> 01:24:38,479
Speaker 3: idea of every convenience comes at a cost, right, So

1529
01:24:40,240 --> 01:24:42,200
Speaker 3: why do we use chemicals as much as we do

1530
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:47,240
Speaker 3: They're convenient, right, It's the easy button most people. And

1531
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:49,800
Speaker 3: I would argue, you know, and I'm not again trying

1532
01:24:49,800 --> 01:24:51,519
Speaker 3: to throw anyone under the bus, because I've been there

1533
01:24:51,520 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 3: many times, but I would argue that the chemical application

1534
01:24:55,880 --> 01:24:59,960
Speaker 3: used in food plots is far worse than the can

1535
01:25:00,080 --> 01:25:03,360
Speaker 3: ventional egg model because most food plotters aren't overly precise

1536
01:25:03,400 --> 01:25:06,360
Speaker 3: with their application rates. You know, their timing is not

1537
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,800
Speaker 3: the best. It's again, it usually comes down to, oh wow,

1538
01:25:09,880 --> 01:25:11,800
Speaker 3: I've got one weekend to get this food plot in.

1539
01:25:11,880 --> 01:25:14,599
Speaker 3: I'm already behind the schedule. I'm going to go out.

1540
01:25:14,640 --> 01:25:17,559
Speaker 3: I'm going to mow it, spray it, till it, whatever

1541
01:25:17,600 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 3: I can do in two three days time. So first

1542
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:23,799
Speaker 3: thing would be coming up with a better system in general,

1543
01:25:23,960 --> 01:25:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, an annual routine is going to be an

1544
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:29,040
Speaker 3: important thing. And understanding the timing element of when you're planting,

1545
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:32,439
Speaker 3: when you're disturbing soil, whatever it might be. The next

1546
01:25:32,439 --> 01:25:37,840
Speaker 3: thing comes back to the soil itself and having healthy soil,

1547
01:25:38,280 --> 01:25:42,840
Speaker 3: having a balanced ecosystem in the soil itself is going

1548
01:25:42,880 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 3: to produce a situation where weeds aren't as much of

1549
01:25:47,120 --> 01:25:50,840
Speaker 3: a problem. Right. The biggest thing people overlook with weeds

1550
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:54,759
Speaker 3: in a food plot is weeds are generally I shouldn't

1551
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:58,320
Speaker 3: even say generally, they're always there because of the soil itself, right,

1552
01:25:58,320 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 3: They're there to heal something in the soil. Now, you

1553
01:26:01,360 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 3: might have some noxious weeds in there that are just

1554
01:26:03,600 --> 01:26:06,839
Speaker 3: really good at filling in space, but they're healing something.

1555
01:26:07,360 --> 01:26:09,519
Speaker 3: You know, maybe you disturb the soil and that's nature's

1556
01:26:09,560 --> 01:26:12,360
Speaker 3: way of creating cover to protect the soil. Maybe there's

1557
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:15,400
Speaker 3: a mineral deficiency or a nutrient deficiency in that soil,

1558
01:26:15,600 --> 01:26:19,479
Speaker 3: and those weeds are showing up to sequester, harbor those

1559
01:26:19,560 --> 01:26:22,679
Speaker 3: nutrients to fix and put that soil back in balance.

1560
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:24,799
Speaker 3: So that's that's the first thing you have to understand

1561
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:27,320
Speaker 3: to get away from the chemicals, because every time you

1562
01:26:27,840 --> 01:26:31,480
Speaker 3: disrupt that ecosystem with chemicals, you take another step backwards.

1563
01:26:32,080 --> 01:26:35,519
Speaker 3: And you know, that's where cover crops, like you're talking

1564
01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:39,320
Speaker 3: about cycling through cover crops, planting more diverse species at

1565
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:42,200
Speaker 3: any given time versus a single monoculture all the time.

1566
01:26:42,479 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 3: That's going to help balance out that ecosystem. But one

1567
01:26:45,479 --> 01:26:47,840
Speaker 3: of the things that I've been doing the last couple

1568
01:26:47,880 --> 01:26:51,160
Speaker 3: of years, and a company that I've worked with now

1569
01:26:51,240 --> 01:26:54,320
Speaker 3: pretty closely for the last year. Midwestern bioag is the

1570
01:26:54,400 --> 01:26:56,439
Speaker 3: name of the company and the reason I was drawn

1571
01:26:56,479 --> 01:26:59,599
Speaker 3: to them again the dairy background and understanding the soil

1572
01:26:59,640 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 3: acogy and how important that soil health is. They produce

1573
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:10,360
Speaker 3: fertilizers that are a minerve based, homogenized and remineralized fertilizer.

1574
01:27:11,160 --> 01:27:14,920
Speaker 3: So their whole approach is a system's approach to agriculture.

1575
01:27:15,120 --> 01:27:17,920
Speaker 3: And what I love about them is they've got a

1576
01:27:18,000 --> 01:27:20,400
Speaker 3: ton of data and all the numbers to prove the

1577
01:27:20,479 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 3: system's approach. And actually, at the end of the day,

1578
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 3: their approach is more cost effective than the conventional approach

1579
01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,400
Speaker 3: because they can go in you know, we can dial

1580
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:33,880
Speaker 3: in these fertilizers to balance out your soil. Once you

1581
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:37,599
Speaker 3: reach that call it state of homeostasis. In that soil

1582
01:27:37,600 --> 01:27:40,960
Speaker 3: where things are more balanced and equalized, weeds aren't really

1583
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:42,720
Speaker 3: that much of an issue. And then when you go

1584
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:44,640
Speaker 3: in there and you plant a crop, it has the

1585
01:27:44,680 --> 01:27:47,280
Speaker 3: advantage because you placed it at the right depth at

1586
01:27:47,320 --> 01:27:50,000
Speaker 3: the right time, given the right amount of moisture and everything,

1587
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:54,360
Speaker 3: and it's going to more often than not outcompete the weeds.

1588
01:27:54,880 --> 01:27:56,800
Speaker 3: At the same time, if there are some weeds you know,

1589
01:27:56,840 --> 01:27:58,000
Speaker 3: it's just kind of one of those things where we

1590
01:27:58,040 --> 01:28:00,679
Speaker 3: have to understand that a lot of time those weeds,

1591
01:28:00,680 --> 01:28:02,599
Speaker 3: you know, we call them weeds throw up air quotes,

1592
01:28:02,640 --> 01:28:05,559
Speaker 3: but more often than out, they're a native plant that

1593
01:28:05,840 --> 01:28:07,680
Speaker 3: you're going to feed on anyways, and a lot of

1594
01:28:07,680 --> 01:28:10,960
Speaker 3: times they're as high or higher in nutrient content than

1595
01:28:10,960 --> 01:28:13,040
Speaker 3: a lot of the crops that we plant. But the

1596
01:28:13,680 --> 01:28:20,280
Speaker 3: nutrient compounds or the makeup of these fertilizers are a huge,

1597
01:28:20,360 --> 01:28:23,760
Speaker 3: huge advantage, and that's why I've really started to love

1598
01:28:23,760 --> 01:28:26,600
Speaker 3: them more than anything. You know, I talked about nutrients

1599
01:28:26,600 --> 01:28:30,559
Speaker 3: cycling in general. Well, if we back up, you know,

1600
01:28:31,000 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 3: not that long ago, a few hundred years ago, Up

1601
01:28:33,920 --> 01:28:37,679
Speaker 3: until a few hundred years ago, our habitat was managed

1602
01:28:37,720 --> 01:28:42,280
Speaker 3: by large animals, right. You had everything from wooly mammoths

1603
01:28:42,280 --> 01:28:45,759
Speaker 3: which were actually you know, obviously gone a lot longer

1604
01:28:45,800 --> 01:28:47,880
Speaker 3: ago than a couple hundred years but all we up

1605
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:50,200
Speaker 3: to like bison that were just eliminated a few hundred

1606
01:28:50,240 --> 01:28:54,840
Speaker 3: years ago. Those large animals had the role of creating disturbance,

1607
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:58,680
Speaker 3: which created space for regeneration, but also they move nutrients

1608
01:28:58,720 --> 01:29:02,599
Speaker 3: around those ecoss and across the landscape. We don't have

1609
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:05,240
Speaker 3: that anymore. So you know, a lot of times what

1610
01:29:05,280 --> 01:29:07,920
Speaker 3: we see and I think a big reason for a

1611
01:29:07,960 --> 01:29:11,320
Speaker 3: lot of the invasive issues is we just don't have

1612
01:29:11,439 --> 01:29:14,280
Speaker 3: as nutrient rich soil as we used to have in general.

1613
01:29:14,479 --> 01:29:17,599
Speaker 3: You know, even in a forest ecosystem that's well managed,

1614
01:29:17,880 --> 01:29:20,360
Speaker 3: you're still just cycling through the nutrients in that system

1615
01:29:20,439 --> 01:29:23,960
Speaker 3: and you never have the added bonus or you know,

1616
01:29:24,080 --> 01:29:27,000
Speaker 3: thrush of nutrients that's brought in from an outside source.

1617
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:30,200
Speaker 3: And now with these fertilizers, which is again why I

1618
01:29:30,200 --> 01:29:32,640
Speaker 3: love them, is we can go and we can basically

1619
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:37,519
Speaker 3: spread manure that's been it goes through a digestion process,

1620
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:39,960
Speaker 3: so it's broken down to its most usable form, all

1621
01:29:39,960 --> 01:29:44,120
Speaker 3: the impurities are removed. We have that it's pelletized and homogenized,

1622
01:29:44,160 --> 01:29:46,759
Speaker 3: so it's even we put that in our food plots.

1623
01:29:47,680 --> 01:29:51,320
Speaker 3: Now we're putting real nutrition into those plants or into

1624
01:29:51,320 --> 01:29:53,759
Speaker 3: the soil, which ends up in the in the plants,

1625
01:29:53,760 --> 01:29:56,040
Speaker 3: which ends up in the deer. And now those deer

1626
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:59,439
Speaker 3: are distributing those nutrients throughout the habitat on our property,

1627
01:30:00,160 --> 01:30:05,639
Speaker 3: versus a synthetic fertilizer that really promotes growth but doesn't

1628
01:30:05,680 --> 01:30:09,080
Speaker 3: promote nutrients, right, it's kind of those empty calories. It

1629
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:11,760
Speaker 3: like I can go grab fast food and fill that

1630
01:30:11,840 --> 01:30:14,639
Speaker 3: void of hunger, or I can eat something that's actually

1631
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:17,600
Speaker 3: got nutrition and it's going to benefit my body. But

1632
01:30:17,680 --> 01:30:20,160
Speaker 3: the difference is, again you have deer spreading those nutrients

1633
01:30:20,240 --> 01:30:23,519
Speaker 3: throughout the rest of the habitat, and then all your

1634
01:30:23,520 --> 01:30:25,840
Speaker 3: habitat gets better from there on out too. So again

1635
01:30:25,880 --> 01:30:28,439
Speaker 3: it all comes back to the soil in the nutrients

1636
01:30:28,520 --> 01:30:32,880
Speaker 3: cycling in that ecosystem and the surrounding ecosystems, and those

1637
01:30:32,880 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 3: deer are now the landscape managers or the vegetation managers

1638
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:41,440
Speaker 3: of that habitat, and we're just there kind of overseeing

1639
01:30:41,479 --> 01:30:43,879
Speaker 3: what can grow and what can't grow, but they're ultimately

1640
01:30:43,920 --> 01:30:46,559
Speaker 3: moving the nutrients through that system. What was the name

1641
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:51,280
Speaker 3: again of that fertilizer company, Midwestern bio Egg And is

1642
01:30:51,280 --> 01:30:54,000
Speaker 3: that something that's regional or is that something that's more

1643
01:30:54,040 --> 01:30:59,479
Speaker 3: widely available Yet it's widely available. Actually, I'm working with

1644
01:30:59,560 --> 01:31:04,759
Speaker 3: them right now and we're trying to solve logistical problems

1645
01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:08,599
Speaker 3: to get smaller quantities to food plotters for this exact reason.

1646
01:31:09,160 --> 01:31:13,640
Speaker 3: They're they're actually located in southwestern Wisconsin and so and

1647
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:17,360
Speaker 3: they distribute throughout the entire country. In fact, some of

1648
01:31:17,360 --> 01:31:21,599
Speaker 3: their bigger research trials were done in the Dakotas, so

1649
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:25,959
Speaker 3: you know, you're taking a completely different climate with relatively

1650
01:31:26,000 --> 01:31:29,840
Speaker 3: poor soils, and they can get those soils balanced out

1651
01:31:30,120 --> 01:31:33,920
Speaker 3: with these fertilizers to where they're this year. I think

1652
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:39,880
Speaker 3: they set multiple county yield records and in doing so,

1653
01:31:40,080 --> 01:31:44,760
Speaker 3: they've dramatically reduced the chemical inputs on these fields. So

1654
01:31:44,840 --> 01:31:47,559
Speaker 3: that's a you know, that's a big, big positive to me.

1655
01:31:47,720 --> 01:31:50,120
Speaker 3: But you know, this kind of comes back to to

1656
01:31:51,240 --> 01:31:53,200
Speaker 3: the deer side of things again. If our ultimate goal

1657
01:31:53,240 --> 01:31:56,599
Speaker 3: as a deer or habitat manager is to produce the biggest,

1658
01:31:56,600 --> 01:32:01,040
Speaker 3: healthiest deer possible, then getting real newttrition into those deer

1659
01:32:01,320 --> 01:32:04,320
Speaker 3: is obviously a critical element of that. And when we

1660
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:08,000
Speaker 3: start looking at the soils in any given area, the

1661
01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:11,599
Speaker 3: nutrient or the lack of nutrients, I should say that's

1662
01:32:12,040 --> 01:32:15,200
Speaker 3: happening more and more with row crops because of all

1663
01:32:15,200 --> 01:32:18,240
Speaker 3: the added synthetics. This is a way to ensure your

1664
01:32:18,280 --> 01:32:22,040
Speaker 3: herd is getting high quality nutrition and minerals back in

1665
01:32:22,080 --> 01:32:27,000
Speaker 3: their diet without congregating them around a supplemental food source

1666
01:32:27,439 --> 01:32:31,280
Speaker 3: or a mineral lick and obviously there's advantages and disadvantage

1667
01:32:31,800 --> 01:32:35,479
Speaker 3: to those things. But I often will use the analogy

1668
01:32:35,520 --> 01:32:38,559
Speaker 3: where you know, you can take a multi vitamin every day,

1669
01:32:38,600 --> 01:32:41,280
Speaker 3: but we know that you're far better off getting the

1670
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:44,200
Speaker 3: nutrients that you need through the foods that you eat

1671
01:32:45,080 --> 01:32:47,920
Speaker 3: versus just popping a pill or drinking a supplemental drink

1672
01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:50,080
Speaker 3: every day. So that's kind of the same approach we take.

1673
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:52,519
Speaker 3: Let's get the nutrition in those deer through these perennial

1674
01:32:52,600 --> 01:32:57,960
Speaker 3: native food sources and through truly nutrient rich food plots,

1675
01:32:58,120 --> 01:33:01,320
Speaker 3: which again it's going to create a really really strong

1676
01:33:01,400 --> 01:33:04,640
Speaker 3: source of attraction because of the nutrient content there, and

1677
01:33:04,680 --> 01:33:07,679
Speaker 3: that goes hand in hand with our ultimate goal of

1678
01:33:07,760 --> 01:33:09,360
Speaker 3: creating that huntability on the property.

1679
01:33:09,960 --> 01:33:12,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then to the to the ultimate ultimate that

1680
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:16,760
Speaker 2: we discussed earlier, which is the whole ecosystem health by

1681
01:33:16,880 --> 01:33:23,240
Speaker 2: managing for more nutrient, more nutrient dench more nutrient dense vegetation,

1682
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:26,920
Speaker 2: which comes from the healthier soil, which is a byproduct

1683
01:33:26,920 --> 01:33:30,000
Speaker 2: of not using as much chemical as, not tilling as much,

1684
01:33:30,560 --> 01:33:34,120
Speaker 2: not using synthetic fertilizers. All those kinds of things don't

1685
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 2: end up, you know, running off into your waterways, they

1686
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:40,720
Speaker 2: don't end up being you know, chemicals drifting onto the

1687
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:43,879
Speaker 2: native vegetation adjacent to those food plots and killing the milkweed,

1688
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,320
Speaker 2: killing the forbes and flowers, all that kind of stuff.

1689
01:33:46,720 --> 01:33:49,320
Speaker 2: So it seems like by doing all these things that

1690
01:33:49,439 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 2: lead to bigger, healthier deer in this case, it is

1691
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:55,920
Speaker 2: also helping the rest of the ecosystem. So this is

1692
01:33:55,920 --> 01:33:58,880
Speaker 2: one of those things where it really seems to be

1693
01:33:58,920 --> 01:34:01,400
Speaker 2: the best of both worlds in that managing your food

1694
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,080
Speaker 2: plots in this kind of way is very whitetail specific,

1695
01:34:05,120 --> 01:34:10,280
Speaker 2: beneficial and also very whole ecosystem focused in such a

1696
01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:14,240
Speaker 2: way that it's like a positive feedback loop, if you will.

1697
01:34:15,120 --> 01:34:17,160
Speaker 2: It's hard to argue with from that perspective.

1698
01:34:18,080 --> 01:34:21,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I can take that up even another notch

1699
01:34:21,439 --> 01:34:24,439
Speaker 3: because one of the things that I'm doing now with

1700
01:34:24,479 --> 01:34:27,479
Speaker 3: my clients, you know, a lot of these recreational properties

1701
01:34:27,560 --> 01:34:31,439
Speaker 3: have some component of tillable land on them that they

1702
01:34:31,600 --> 01:34:33,400
Speaker 3: lease out or maybe you know it is a farmer

1703
01:34:33,439 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 3: that has recreational property. We're actually reevaluating a lot of

1704
01:34:38,120 --> 01:34:42,000
Speaker 3: these land use contracts and trying to work more closely

1705
01:34:42,040 --> 01:34:46,280
Speaker 3: with the farmers to utilize these fertilizers too, because again,

1706
01:34:46,600 --> 01:34:50,120
Speaker 3: if we're eliminating the chemicals going into that local environment,

1707
01:34:50,560 --> 01:34:52,360
Speaker 3: it's reducing a lot of those problems. But at the

1708
01:34:52,400 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 3: same time, if we're going to grow crops in the

1709
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:58,320
Speaker 3: surrounding area and we want the biggest, healthiest deer possible,

1710
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:01,000
Speaker 3: and those deer are feeding on those surrounding crops through

1711
01:35:01,320 --> 01:35:03,920
Speaker 3: much of the growing season, then you know, we want

1712
01:35:04,160 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 3: more nutrients in those crops at the end of the day.

1713
01:35:06,640 --> 01:35:10,760
Speaker 3: So that's another big advantage there. One other thing to note,

1714
01:35:10,840 --> 01:35:15,200
Speaker 3: you know, from the conservation standpoint with hunters and this

1715
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:18,679
Speaker 3: particular fertilizer company. Another reason why I was drawn to them.

1716
01:35:19,439 --> 01:35:23,800
Speaker 3: This fertilizer is produced in a carbon negative manner, so

1717
01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:25,960
Speaker 3: it's you know, it comes off of a dairy farm

1718
01:35:26,240 --> 01:35:29,360
Speaker 3: that has a surplus of manure, and it goes through

1719
01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:33,080
Speaker 3: a digestion process. It's broken down by microbes and during

1720
01:35:33,120 --> 01:35:36,720
Speaker 3: that process methane gas is given off. They capture all

1721
01:35:36,760 --> 01:35:40,760
Speaker 3: that methane. It powers generators that power the entire manufacturing

1722
01:35:40,800 --> 01:35:45,240
Speaker 3: facility for the fertilizer, and then a byproduct of that,

1723
01:35:45,280 --> 01:35:48,200
Speaker 3: when they separate the water, they reuse the water to

1724
01:35:48,280 --> 01:35:52,000
Speaker 3: irrigate the fields. So there's a huge advantage on that

1725
01:35:52,120 --> 01:35:55,160
Speaker 3: side of things versus all of your synthetics that are

1726
01:35:55,800 --> 01:35:59,960
Speaker 3: mostly petroleum based, right where there's the carbon effect there.

1727
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:03,799
Speaker 3: So you know whether whether you're concerned with the carbon cycle,

1728
01:36:04,320 --> 01:36:07,280
Speaker 3: you know, and this the climate issues that are shoving

1729
01:36:07,280 --> 01:36:09,920
Speaker 3: our face all the time, or not. This goes back

1730
01:36:09,960 --> 01:36:12,760
Speaker 3: to that leading by example where if you get approached

1731
01:36:12,880 --> 01:36:16,120
Speaker 3: or you get in some sort of confrontational conversation with

1732
01:36:16,160 --> 01:36:18,160
Speaker 3: a non hunter trying to tell you that the things

1733
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:21,280
Speaker 3: you're doing are just to kill deer, you can fold

1734
01:36:21,360 --> 01:36:24,759
Speaker 3: back on this and explain like, well, actually you're not wrong,

1735
01:36:24,960 --> 01:36:27,320
Speaker 3: but look at the big advantage to all the things

1736
01:36:27,320 --> 01:36:30,519
Speaker 3: that I'm doing versus you know, And this is the

1737
01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:32,680
Speaker 3: conversation I have a lot of times with some of

1738
01:36:32,720 --> 01:36:33,320
Speaker 3: these vegans.

1739
01:36:33,360 --> 01:36:33,519
Speaker 2: Right.

1740
01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:36,840
Speaker 3: It's like I look at myself and I think all

1741
01:36:36,920 --> 01:36:39,519
Speaker 3: hunters are this way in some way, shape or form.

1742
01:36:39,720 --> 01:36:42,840
Speaker 3: But we are the frontline conservationists, right. We're actually out

1743
01:36:42,880 --> 01:36:46,240
Speaker 3: there actively trying to solve problems, be it small on

1744
01:36:46,280 --> 01:36:49,760
Speaker 3: our properties or larger like I'm you know, approaching many

1745
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:53,360
Speaker 3: properties in many communities. We're not just stand out in

1746
01:36:53,400 --> 01:36:57,040
Speaker 3: front of a courthouse with a picket sign shouting things

1747
01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:00,080
Speaker 3: about climate change. We're actually, you know, actively working to

1748
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:04,480
Speaker 3: improve food security and sustainability of these ecosystems.

1749
01:37:04,680 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you said, sequestering carbon along the way

1750
01:37:07,680 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 2: as we plant these grasslands and manage native vegetation and

1751
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:13,880
Speaker 2: all that kind of good stuff. So we're hitting it

1752
01:37:13,920 --> 01:37:20,960
Speaker 2: on all cylinders. One question around a specific here back

1753
01:37:21,000 --> 01:37:25,640
Speaker 2: to the you know, the ways that we are managing

1754
01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 2: for soil health, which is at the foundation of a

1755
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:32,840
Speaker 2: lot of these things. If we're trying to establish a

1756
01:37:32,880 --> 01:37:35,880
Speaker 2: food plot or if we're trying to remove an invasive

1757
01:37:35,960 --> 01:37:39,080
Speaker 2: species of some kind, usually the two options are either

1758
01:37:39,160 --> 01:37:43,479
Speaker 2: chemical disturbance or mechanical disturbance. So we've already talked about

1759
01:37:43,479 --> 01:37:47,640
Speaker 2: the downsides of chemical disturbance but sometimes needing to use it.

1760
01:37:48,120 --> 01:37:51,840
Speaker 2: We haven't talked as much about the downsides of mechanical disturbance.

1761
01:37:51,880 --> 01:37:54,720
Speaker 2: But you know, as you know, and as we've talked

1762
01:37:54,760 --> 01:37:58,799
Speaker 2: about in this podcast in the past, you know, repeated disking, tailling,

1763
01:37:59,120 --> 01:38:01,680
Speaker 2: aggressive disturbance of the soil in that kind of way

1764
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:07,200
Speaker 2: does break down the life of the soil significantly reduce

1765
01:38:07,240 --> 01:38:10,519
Speaker 2: in the ability for it to produce nutritious vegetation. Down

1766
01:38:10,520 --> 01:38:13,200
Speaker 2: the line, So one of the things I wonder about

1767
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:15,920
Speaker 2: is we got to pick a poison. Though sometimes we

1768
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:18,599
Speaker 2: could either disc entil something to get rid of a weed,

1769
01:38:18,680 --> 01:38:20,439
Speaker 2: or to open up a food plot, or to get

1770
01:38:20,479 --> 01:38:23,920
Speaker 2: rid of a grass that's taken over a prairie, or

1771
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:26,840
Speaker 2: we can burn it down with glyph or something like that.

1772
01:38:26,840 --> 01:38:29,680
Speaker 2: With a nervous side, if you had to pick your

1773
01:38:29,720 --> 01:38:33,760
Speaker 2: poison metaphorically one of those two, which is which is

1774
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:38,639
Speaker 2: less negative or vice versa, which is the less which

1775
01:38:38,720 --> 01:38:39,759
Speaker 2: is the more positive option?

1776
01:38:41,040 --> 01:38:45,080
Speaker 3: I I have to pick that poison many times a month,

1777
01:38:45,360 --> 01:38:48,440
Speaker 3: you know, every time I write a plan with implementation,

1778
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:53,160
Speaker 3: we're picking that poison. I look at it from a

1779
01:38:53,200 --> 01:38:57,880
Speaker 3: situational standpoint. Right If a lot of what I do

1780
01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:00,120
Speaker 3: is in hill country, we don't really want to go

1781
01:39:00,160 --> 01:39:02,800
Speaker 3: in there and aggressively turn up the ground because there's

1782
01:39:02,840 --> 01:39:05,800
Speaker 3: obviously a huge risk for erosion there. So we are

1783
01:39:05,920 --> 01:39:08,920
Speaker 3: utilizing the chemicals, but again, we do it in a

1784
01:39:08,960 --> 01:39:13,680
Speaker 3: way where we're usually out of that routine or out

1785
01:39:13,680 --> 01:39:15,599
Speaker 3: of that cycle within a couple of years. And that's

1786
01:39:15,960 --> 01:39:18,040
Speaker 3: another way I kind of pitch it to my clients

1787
01:39:18,120 --> 01:39:21,479
Speaker 3: is we try to look at the chemical application as

1788
01:39:21,479 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 3: a credit based system. If I tell you you've got

1789
01:39:24,120 --> 01:39:28,000
Speaker 3: three credits to burn, use them appropriately. Don't just go

1790
01:39:28,080 --> 01:39:30,720
Speaker 3: out all willy nilly and spray, you know, not the

1791
01:39:30,760 --> 01:39:33,599
Speaker 3: best timing, like, use them appropriately so you get the

1792
01:39:33,640 --> 01:39:38,679
Speaker 3: most effective kill. Usually within three applications we can reduce

1793
01:39:38,800 --> 01:39:43,360
Speaker 3: or eliminate most of that weed competition, and then we

1794
01:39:43,439 --> 01:39:46,400
Speaker 3: get that soil balanced out. But again there's no silver

1795
01:39:46,439 --> 01:39:50,320
Speaker 3: bullet solution, right, so once we get the soil, you know,

1796
01:39:50,360 --> 01:39:52,879
Speaker 3: getting that soil balanced out, I think is absolutely critical

1797
01:39:53,200 --> 01:39:55,600
Speaker 3: because once that soil is balanced out, everything else is

1798
01:39:55,600 --> 01:39:58,120
Speaker 3: a lot more manageable. But you know, if it's been

1799
01:39:58,160 --> 01:40:01,559
Speaker 3: foul ground for a long time, or it's in CRP

1800
01:40:02,200 --> 01:40:05,960
Speaker 3: and CRP you know, I like CRP in general, but

1801
01:40:06,320 --> 01:40:09,880
Speaker 3: it's a reserve program or a resting program. It's not

1802
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:13,680
Speaker 3: a rehabilitation or regenerative program by any means. So a

1803
01:40:13,760 --> 01:40:17,439
Speaker 3: lot of times CRP ground is pretty bad ground. You know,

1804
01:40:17,479 --> 01:40:20,640
Speaker 3: it's been overfarmed, they planted in native grasses, and a

1805
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:23,080
Speaker 3: lot of times you'll see the CRP never gets very tall.

1806
01:40:23,120 --> 01:40:26,240
Speaker 3: At all those situations when you're going there and trying

1807
01:40:26,240 --> 01:40:28,720
Speaker 3: to add a food plot, there's a lot of nutrients

1808
01:40:28,960 --> 01:40:30,840
Speaker 3: that are missing from those soils to get it to

1809
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:34,040
Speaker 3: where we can grow that crop. Ultimately, once we get

1810
01:40:34,080 --> 01:40:36,600
Speaker 3: it to produce a healthy crop, again, that crop is

1811
01:40:36,640 --> 01:40:40,000
Speaker 3: better at out competing the weeds and keeping that soil

1812
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:42,599
Speaker 3: balance and check or that soil health in check, which

1813
01:40:42,640 --> 01:40:45,759
Speaker 3: gets away from it. Now, one thing that I've learned,

1814
01:40:46,080 --> 01:40:47,840
Speaker 3: and you know, if we would have had this conversation

1815
01:40:48,040 --> 01:40:50,599
Speaker 3: a couple of years ago, I would have pushed hard

1816
01:40:50,960 --> 01:40:55,400
Speaker 3: for a no till regiment, right. I think that's a

1817
01:40:55,439 --> 01:40:58,600
Speaker 3: pretty strong talking point. It's pretty common talking point with

1818
01:40:58,680 --> 01:41:03,320
Speaker 3: food plots, and in most situations I would still tend

1819
01:41:03,320 --> 01:41:07,320
Speaker 3: to lean towards that, even though on the conventional egg side,

1820
01:41:07,960 --> 01:41:10,559
Speaker 3: no till is not a it's not a long term

1821
01:41:10,920 --> 01:41:13,680
Speaker 3: answer or not a fool proof answer because there's a

1822
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:17,799
Speaker 3: lot of other issues at play again, nutrient cycling, ground compaction,

1823
01:41:18,080 --> 01:41:21,479
Speaker 3: water infiltration, stuff like that. So those guys in a

1824
01:41:21,479 --> 01:41:23,559
Speaker 3: lot of situations are going to have to till. And

1825
01:41:24,080 --> 01:41:26,639
Speaker 3: you know, so when you're driving around the countryside thinking

1826
01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,840
Speaker 3: from a food plot perspective, no till is the best,

1827
01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:31,879
Speaker 3: and you see someone tilling or turning dirt, every situation

1828
01:41:31,960 --> 01:41:34,639
Speaker 3: is different. You know, in northern areas of the United States,

1829
01:41:34,680 --> 01:41:37,120
Speaker 3: if these guys don't turn the dirt in the fall,

1830
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:39,360
Speaker 3: it doesn't dry out or warm up fast enough in

1831
01:41:39,400 --> 01:41:41,320
Speaker 3: the spring to even get a crop planted with the

1832
01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:43,920
Speaker 3: short growing season they have. So that's part of it.

1833
01:41:43,960 --> 01:41:47,280
Speaker 3: But what I've learned in working with companies like Midwestern

1834
01:41:47,280 --> 01:41:51,639
Speaker 3: bioagg and gleaning information from these guys who have farmed

1835
01:41:51,760 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 3: organically or using what they refer to as a biological

1836
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:59,200
Speaker 3: systems approach, what I've learned over the years is that

1837
01:42:00,080 --> 01:42:05,840
Speaker 3: light tillage has tremendous advantages. And the reason why that

1838
01:42:06,080 --> 01:42:08,800
Speaker 3: always kind of stuck with me or was appealing to

1839
01:42:08,840 --> 01:42:12,559
Speaker 3: me is back to the sustainability standpoint, right, It's it's

1840
01:42:12,640 --> 01:42:15,559
Speaker 3: unrealistic to expect all the guys out there food plotting.

1841
01:42:15,840 --> 01:42:19,240
Speaker 3: You know, what's the average food plot size less than

1842
01:42:19,280 --> 01:42:21,400
Speaker 3: an acre quarter acre. You know, maybe a guy is

1843
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:23,680
Speaker 3: fortunate and he's got three or four eighth acre quarter

1844
01:42:23,720 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 3: acre plots on his property. I'm not gonna expect those

1845
01:42:26,840 --> 01:42:28,439
Speaker 3: guys to go out and buy a no till drill.

1846
01:42:28,960 --> 01:42:31,800
Speaker 3: And at the same time, a lot of guys, most

1847
01:42:31,840 --> 01:42:34,040
Speaker 3: guys like to diy things, so they're not going to

1848
01:42:34,080 --> 01:42:35,840
Speaker 3: want to go hire a land manager to come in

1849
01:42:35,880 --> 01:42:37,680
Speaker 3: and pay them a bunch of money to do a

1850
01:42:37,680 --> 01:42:40,400
Speaker 3: no tail drill. So in those situations and even in

1851
01:42:40,479 --> 01:42:44,479
Speaker 3: situations where they have options light tillage very light, and

1852
01:42:44,520 --> 01:42:47,759
Speaker 3: I'm talking like the top inch inch and a half max.

1853
01:42:48,800 --> 01:42:52,880
Speaker 3: Incorporating the organic matter or thatch layer into that top

1854
01:42:52,960 --> 01:42:57,800
Speaker 3: inch is at advantageous. It's going to improve water infiltration,

1855
01:42:58,080 --> 01:43:00,600
Speaker 3: it's going to help break down the organic matter and

1856
01:43:00,640 --> 01:43:03,479
Speaker 3: feed the biology and the soil faster, and it's going

1857
01:43:03,520 --> 01:43:08,040
Speaker 3: to eliminate that weed competition without the use of an herbicide.

1858
01:43:08,640 --> 01:43:11,240
Speaker 3: The you know, we soil health guys talk a lot

1859
01:43:11,280 --> 01:43:15,599
Speaker 3: about the micro rhizal fungal layer, right that layer lives

1860
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:19,519
Speaker 3: sub two inches, So if you go and you bust

1861
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:22,679
Speaker 3: up that top one inch of soil, you're not really

1862
01:43:22,760 --> 01:43:26,840
Speaker 3: affecting that fungal layer. Now, having a thatch layer there

1863
01:43:26,840 --> 01:43:30,400
Speaker 3: is still advantageous. And again understanding your situation, you don't

1864
01:43:30,400 --> 01:43:33,280
Speaker 3: want to go until on the hillside, especially if there's

1865
01:43:33,360 --> 01:43:38,439
Speaker 3: rain in the forecast. But having healthy, balanced soil, you know,

1866
01:43:38,600 --> 01:43:41,400
Speaker 3: trying to maintain as much groundcover as possible at all times,

1867
01:43:41,960 --> 01:43:45,080
Speaker 3: and incorporating that residue into that top inch is going

1868
01:43:45,120 --> 01:43:46,880
Speaker 3: to promote a lot of growth, so you get that

1869
01:43:47,120 --> 01:43:50,200
Speaker 3: weed competition out of the way, promoting or accelerating the

1870
01:43:50,240 --> 01:43:53,519
Speaker 3: growth of the crop that you're actually planting. So you know,

1871
01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:55,560
Speaker 3: again there's two avenues to look at that. But I

1872
01:43:55,920 --> 01:43:58,559
Speaker 3: just like to say that or bring that up, because

1873
01:43:58,880 --> 01:44:02,479
Speaker 3: most guys out there exit the conversation on soil health

1874
01:44:02,479 --> 01:44:04,840
Speaker 3: as soon as you start saying no tilling is the

1875
01:44:04,840 --> 01:44:07,160
Speaker 3: best way to go. And I'm here to tell you

1876
01:44:07,200 --> 01:44:12,000
Speaker 3: that although I think no tilling is very advantageous in

1877
01:44:12,040 --> 01:44:15,360
Speaker 3: a food plotting situation, you know, again, all the elements

1878
01:44:15,360 --> 01:44:17,360
Speaker 3: at play, the timing aspect of it, can be a

1879
01:44:17,360 --> 01:44:20,400
Speaker 3: lot more lenient with no till. But if you are

1880
01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:22,920
Speaker 3: in a situation where all you have is a light

1881
01:44:22,960 --> 01:44:25,760
Speaker 3: disc or a tiller, that's good too. Just don't go

1882
01:44:25,880 --> 01:44:28,479
Speaker 3: so deep. I mean, I think the biggest issue is

1883
01:44:29,800 --> 01:44:32,760
Speaker 3: we like the idea of turning the dirt until it

1884
01:44:32,800 --> 01:44:36,519
Speaker 3: becomes this like fine powdery medium, but in doing so,

1885
01:44:36,640 --> 01:44:40,080
Speaker 3: we completely destroy all the soil biology and we also

1886
01:44:40,120 --> 01:44:43,280
Speaker 3: destroy the soil structure itself, and we cause a lot

1887
01:44:43,280 --> 01:44:45,519
Speaker 3: of problems that way. So one of the things that

1888
01:44:45,560 --> 01:44:48,320
Speaker 3: I do, and you know, on most of our client properties,

1889
01:44:48,320 --> 01:44:51,840
Speaker 3: we are doing no till or very light disking my

1890
01:44:51,920 --> 01:44:54,960
Speaker 3: property here by my house. I've never sprayed my food plots.

1891
01:44:55,120 --> 01:44:57,920
Speaker 3: They're right next to where my kids play, not far

1892
01:44:57,960 --> 01:45:00,479
Speaker 3: from my garden. I've got a beehive back there. I

1893
01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:02,080
Speaker 3: just don't want to have anything to do with it.

1894
01:45:02,600 --> 01:45:05,320
Speaker 3: But what I do is every year I go out.

1895
01:45:05,840 --> 01:45:08,439
Speaker 3: I've got a kind of a perennial basin there of

1896
01:45:08,479 --> 01:45:11,680
Speaker 3: alfalfa and clover, and then I'll go out, you know,

1897
01:45:11,760 --> 01:45:14,439
Speaker 3: late summer fall food plot time, and I take a

1898
01:45:14,479 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 3: rototiller and I set that puppy out about an inch

1899
01:45:17,200 --> 01:45:19,439
Speaker 3: and I just go through it one time, and basically

1900
01:45:19,479 --> 01:45:23,040
Speaker 3: I clip the root crown off of the clover and

1901
01:45:23,080 --> 01:45:26,719
Speaker 3: alfalfa and it sets it back. And then I plant

1902
01:45:26,720 --> 01:45:29,840
Speaker 3: my fall blend. And you know that fall blends nice

1903
01:45:29,880 --> 01:45:33,759
Speaker 3: because you've got grasses in there, like rye and oats

1904
01:45:33,760 --> 01:45:37,120
Speaker 3: and stuff that germinate relatively quickly and they fill in,

1905
01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:40,200
Speaker 3: and then the brassicas and the peas and stuff fill

1906
01:45:40,240 --> 01:45:44,000
Speaker 3: in after that. But you get a really nice fall plot,

1907
01:45:44,240 --> 01:45:45,800
Speaker 3: and there's a lot of nice rogen sitting in the

1908
01:45:45,800 --> 01:45:48,760
Speaker 3: soil available to those plants because you had that living

1909
01:45:48,840 --> 01:45:52,320
Speaker 3: root there the whole time. And then this next spring

1910
01:45:52,400 --> 01:45:56,519
Speaker 3: or the next spring, the rye fills back in and

1911
01:45:56,960 --> 01:45:59,840
Speaker 3: they'll slowly mature and die off and that clover that

1912
01:46:00,160 --> 01:46:04,040
Speaker 3: there fills back in. Clover and alfalfa are relatively hard

1913
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:07,720
Speaker 3: to kill. You know, most guys probably know if they've

1914
01:46:07,760 --> 01:46:10,320
Speaker 3: tried to kill it, sometimes the wrong timing or just

1915
01:46:10,400 --> 01:46:12,320
Speaker 3: one shot of glifa say it won't even kill it.

1916
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:15,880
Speaker 3: So you can get pretty crazy with your tillage if

1917
01:46:15,920 --> 01:46:17,800
Speaker 3: you don't go too deep and you're not going to

1918
01:46:17,920 --> 01:46:20,000
Speaker 3: kill that. And again, the idea is to really just

1919
01:46:20,040 --> 01:46:22,960
Speaker 3: set it back long enough to let that initial crop

1920
01:46:23,040 --> 01:46:26,120
Speaker 3: fill in, and then you know, it becomes a kind

1921
01:46:26,160 --> 01:46:28,000
Speaker 3: of a perennial cover crop at the end of the

1922
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:30,680
Speaker 3: day and it works out. It creates a good groundcover.

1923
01:46:30,760 --> 01:46:33,639
Speaker 3: And again, we're doing everything we want to do as

1924
01:46:33,640 --> 01:46:37,160
Speaker 3: far as following those six principles of soil health, but

1925
01:46:37,800 --> 01:46:39,640
Speaker 3: we're doing it in a way that works for our

1926
01:46:39,680 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 3: own system. And that's another reason why I love those fertilizers,

1927
01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:46,320
Speaker 3: Because you talk about those six principles. The sixth principle

1928
01:46:46,360 --> 01:46:49,599
Speaker 3: is animal integration. Well, how do we integrate animals into

1929
01:46:49,600 --> 01:46:53,200
Speaker 3: our food plot system for really good soil health. We

1930
01:46:53,320 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 3: actually do that in some situations I talked about the

1931
01:46:55,840 --> 01:47:01,360
Speaker 3: beef cattle earlier. In some situations, we will actually go

1932
01:47:01,439 --> 01:47:04,920
Speaker 3: in and we'll drill in or broadcast food plot seed

1933
01:47:04,920 --> 01:47:07,599
Speaker 3: into our cover crop, our warm season cover, and then

1934
01:47:07,600 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 3: we'll dump cattle in that food plot for twenty four

1935
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:13,559
Speaker 3: to thirty six hour period, let them smash everything down,

1936
01:47:14,400 --> 01:47:17,000
Speaker 3: spread the nutrients around, integrate the seed, and then we

1937
01:47:17,080 --> 01:47:19,400
Speaker 3: pull them out and we get pretty awesome food plots

1938
01:47:19,479 --> 01:47:23,000
Speaker 3: that way. But again, it's not feasible for most guys.

1939
01:47:23,760 --> 01:47:29,000
Speaker 3: So these pelletized minerve based fertilizers are the next step

1940
01:47:29,040 --> 01:47:32,000
Speaker 3: there in a more manageable way to have that same

1941
01:47:32,080 --> 01:47:35,200
Speaker 3: level of animal integration as far as the nutrient cycling goes,

1942
01:47:35,680 --> 01:47:39,880
Speaker 3: without having to worry about, you know, the inconveniences of

1943
01:47:40,120 --> 01:47:41,720
Speaker 3: moving cattle across the landscape.

1944
01:47:41,880 --> 01:47:50,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, Thomas, I we joked before we started recording

1945
01:47:50,240 --> 01:47:52,360
Speaker 2: that if we weren't careful, we could go for six hours.

1946
01:47:52,840 --> 01:47:55,679
Speaker 2: And now I'm realizing that was less of a joke

1947
01:47:55,760 --> 01:47:57,880
Speaker 2: and more of a quite real possibility. If I'm not

1948
01:47:57,920 --> 01:48:02,280
Speaker 2: able to stop myself, well, I'm going to say we

1949
01:48:02,320 --> 01:48:05,200
Speaker 2: should wrap this up. But we have covered a lot

1950
01:48:05,200 --> 01:48:07,400
Speaker 2: of really good stuff and it seems like there's a

1951
01:48:07,400 --> 01:48:09,439
Speaker 2: lot more to talk about, So we might need to

1952
01:48:09,439 --> 01:48:12,320
Speaker 2: get you back on for return visit sometime down the

1953
01:48:12,320 --> 01:48:14,320
Speaker 2: line if you're up for it. But before I let

1954
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:19,080
Speaker 2: you go, where can folks go to learn more about

1955
01:48:19,160 --> 01:48:23,560
Speaker 2: what you're talking about here today? Your courses, your other resources.

1956
01:48:24,200 --> 01:48:26,840
Speaker 2: How can folks learn more from you? Because obviously there

1957
01:48:26,920 --> 01:48:27,880
Speaker 2: is a lot we can learn.

1958
01:48:29,080 --> 01:48:32,880
Speaker 3: Yeah. The untamed Ambition dot com is my website. We're

1959
01:48:32,960 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 3: actually in the process of kind of overhauling that to

1960
01:48:35,760 --> 01:48:38,960
Speaker 3: incorporate those online courses a lot more. But you can

1961
01:48:38,960 --> 01:48:41,240
Speaker 3: find me there. You can reach me through that, Email

1962
01:48:41,320 --> 01:48:45,720
Speaker 3: me Thomas at the untamed ambition dot com or Instagram

1963
01:48:45,800 --> 01:48:48,040
Speaker 3: is where I'm probably the most active when I am

1964
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:53,519
Speaker 3: active on social media, the Untamed Ambition. So yeah, if

1965
01:48:53,560 --> 01:48:56,040
Speaker 3: anyone has any questions on anything we talked about today,

1966
01:48:56,479 --> 01:48:57,720
Speaker 3: I mean, this is what I do every day, is

1967
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:00,360
Speaker 3: answer questions, So feel free to reach out and I'll

1968
01:49:00,360 --> 01:49:01,080
Speaker 3: do the best I can.

1969
01:49:01,640 --> 01:49:05,640
Speaker 2: Awesome, Well, thank you, Thomas. I thoroughly enjoyed this. You

1970
01:49:05,680 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 2: were the right get to talk to. I'm glad this

1971
01:49:07,880 --> 01:49:09,639
Speaker 2: worked out and let's do.

1972
01:49:09,600 --> 01:49:12,240
Speaker 3: It again, all right, Thanks for having me Mark.

1973
01:49:15,320 --> 01:49:17,960
Speaker 2: All right, and that is a wrap. Thank you for listening,

1974
01:49:18,000 --> 01:49:20,320
Speaker 2: thanks for joining me for this one. I hope that

1975
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:23,879
Speaker 2: you believe that you know I provided what I promised,

1976
01:49:23,920 --> 01:49:26,280
Speaker 2: which was a podcast that I thought would give you

1977
01:49:26,320 --> 01:49:28,639
Speaker 2: a lot to think about, a lot to learn from,

1978
01:49:28,920 --> 01:49:32,160
Speaker 2: and a lot to carry forward into your own habitat

1979
01:49:32,160 --> 01:49:36,040
Speaker 2: management efforts this coming spring. So thanks for being here,

1980
01:49:36,280 --> 01:49:40,120
Speaker 2: and until next time, stay wired to Hun