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Speaker 1: Pushkin, Where did you learn the dues and don'ts of

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Speaker 1: dating from your high school friends, an older sibling, your mom.

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Speaker 1: Many of us long for a happy romantic relationship, but

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Speaker 1: we don't always get reliable advice about how to meet

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Speaker 1: and bond with a potential life partner. You might have

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Speaker 1: learned about the birds and the bees in biology class,

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Speaker 1: but I bet you didn't get much instruction about how

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Speaker 1: to navigate a first date or diffuse your first big

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Speaker 1: narrative fight. If we're being honest, a lot of our

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Speaker 1: relationship advice comes from Taylor Swift songs and the research

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Speaker 1: material my expert guest in this episode focus on a

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Speaker 1: lot rom com movies, but.

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Speaker 2: We'll probably talk about like initiating relationships but also maintaining them.

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Speaker 3: We'll just like cover the whole gamut.

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Speaker 4: Kind of yeah, Okay, Okay, great, all right.

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Speaker 1: Eli Finkel of Northwestern University and Paul Eastwick from UC

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Speaker 1: Davis are both world renowned relationship experts. They've recently launched

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Speaker 1: a podcast called Love Factually, which explores what rom comms

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Speaker 1: get right and wrong about how humans really find love.

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Speaker 1: Eli and Paul turned to films like Clueless, La La

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Speaker 1: Land and When Harry met Sally to compare their plots

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Speaker 1: to the actual scientific research on love. Their goal is

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Speaker 1: to figure out the facts from the fiction. So, in

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Speaker 1: honor of Valentine's Day, I just had to include Eli

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Speaker 1: and Paul in this episode in our how to season,

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Speaker 1: which we are calling how to Learn.

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Speaker 4: From a rom Com Movie.

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Speaker 1: Now I know Eli and Paul's academic credentials are top notch,

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Speaker 1: what are they really experts on rom cam movies? There's

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Speaker 1: only one way to find out. So, having found out

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Speaker 1: that you all were both into this stuff, my producer

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Speaker 1: decided to make an impromptu quiz surprise rom com quiz,

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Speaker 1: Who nice best quiz? Most famous quotes? Oh wow, So

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read you a rom com or rom

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Speaker 1: drum quote, and I just want to see if you

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Speaker 1: know which movie it's from.

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Speaker 3: Should we buzz in?

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Speaker 1: Like?

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Speaker 3: Should we compete to see who gets it first?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, let's see.

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Speaker 1: Okay, number one, I'm just a girl stitch in front

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Speaker 1: of a boy nodding hill.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much, I'm the puzzer. Doesn't even count.

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Speaker 3: What about the buzzer? Oh? I am playing the rest

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Speaker 3: of this game under protest?

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, Well, I think we got one for Paul

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Speaker 1: that because we didn't finish it, I'll give the whole quote.

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Speaker 1: It was, I'm just a girl standing in front of

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Speaker 1: a boy asking him to love her. You know, I

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Speaker 1: do want to give context for that quote since you also.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a lovely scene. I mean not nodding Hill right.

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Speaker 5: A lot of people will remember this. It's something between

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Speaker 5: a drama and a calm in the rom category. It's

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Speaker 5: a rom drama com. I guess she's famous American actress

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Speaker 5: and she's in love with someone like everyday English guy

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Speaker 5: and there's you know, some consternation about whether she's out

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Speaker 5: of his league and so forth, and at the end

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Speaker 5: you get this really vulnerable open moment where she shows

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Speaker 5: back up at his door, and you know, it's not

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Speaker 5: really a story about her being out of his league

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Speaker 5: or what their status is in the broader world. It's

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Speaker 5: she's a vulnerable person just like the rest of us,

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Speaker 5: and she's in love with him and it's just hopeful

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Speaker 5: that he returns the love. And it's beautiful, of course,

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Speaker 5: because she's Julia Roberts and that's kind of awesome.

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Speaker 1: Okay, moving on to number two, and I guess we'll

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Speaker 1: use Paul rules where you just jump in and say

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Speaker 1: it if you know it as quickly.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Number two.

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Speaker 1: Number two, you see how picky I am about my

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Speaker 1: shoes and they only go on my feet.

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Speaker 3: We did this one, Paul. This is ten things I

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Speaker 3: hate about you? Right? No, this is clueless.

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Speaker 4: Ding ding ding, Yes, clueless.

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Speaker 1: Okay, sorry, okay, moving on, moving on, moving on. Number three.

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Speaker 1: Love means never having to say you're sorry.

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Speaker 3: Oh am, I not remembering what this is from Originally,

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Speaker 3: I have to be honest, I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 3: seen this.

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Speaker 4: This is old school.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is love story.

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Speaker 4: Right yeah, ding ding ding very good, nice.

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Speaker 2: Job, but I've actually I've actually never seen it. I'm here,

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Speaker 2: I am admitting this.

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Speaker 4: Okay, that'll be a new episode.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: Number four, nobody puts baby in a corner.

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Speaker 5: All right, I'll take it. This is dirty dancing. It's

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Speaker 5: a great one, a totally adorable movie. I carried the watermelon.

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Speaker 5: All sorts of great moments in that one.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So we're talking about rom coms and it seems

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Speaker 1: kind of silly, but you all in this new podcast

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Speaker 1: have really argued that we can learn something really.

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Speaker 4: Important from rom coms. You like, explain why that is.

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Speaker 5: Well, what we realized is that rom coms are fun,

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Speaker 5: they're entertainment, and the dramas too, right, they're entertainment. And

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Speaker 5: the fact is that these movies contain messages. They contain

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Speaker 5: implicitly or explicitly, messages about how relationships work. And due

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Speaker 5: to the fact that films are so influential, we can

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Speaker 5: think of them as messages that are injected into the

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Speaker 5: cultural psyche. And some of these messages are accurate. That is,

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Speaker 5: some of these messages when we consider them, we say, like,

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Speaker 5: is that true? Is that an accurate way of thinking

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Speaker 5: about how relationships actually work? Most people in the world

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Speaker 5: don't realize there's a field called relationship science where people

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Speaker 5: collect evidence on these things. So we thought it would

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Speaker 5: be fun to fact check Hollywood and to say, these

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Speaker 5: are the messages that the movies are are sending and

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Speaker 5: to what degree through these messages actually align with the evidence.

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Speaker 2: And I think too that sometimes it's really exciting when

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Speaker 2: the movies are getting it wrong, because many times that's

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Speaker 2: a great way to set up a contrast between something

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Speaker 2: that feels very intuitive when you see it on screen.

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Speaker 2: Often it's these tropes that we've seen many, many times,

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Speaker 2: but it's kind of handy to be able to say,

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Speaker 2: you know, we know from these kinds of studies that

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Speaker 2: it doesn't actually work this way or it doesn't usually

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Speaker 2: work this way. And there was something about the realization

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Speaker 2: that we could do both point out what they're doing

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Speaker 2: well but also point out what they're getting wrong that

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Speaker 2: seemed pretty exciting.

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Speaker 1: So I know there's some kinds of TV shows, like

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Speaker 1: historically those shows like Survivor have had the like psychology

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Speaker 1: consultants that come in, you know, and even some movies

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Speaker 1: like Inside Out that franchise definitely has lots of famous

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Speaker 1: psychologists that consult Do.

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Speaker 4: You know if like rom comms and rom drums do.

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Speaker 3: This, I'm not aware of it, Paul.

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Speaker 5: I think there was one episode where we joked that

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Speaker 5: like it almost seemed like they had a great advisor

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Speaker 5: on set, and then both of us were jealous of

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Speaker 5: that hypothetical job.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was. I think it was with

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Speaker 3: her episode.

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Speaker 2: Spike Jones, the writer director, really had these sharp insights

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Speaker 2: about how people build intimacy, and well, what if you

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Speaker 2: just made that person not have a body, couldn't you

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Speaker 2: do it just as well? Just as seamlessly. But I

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Speaker 2: don't think anybody is necessarily going to scientists for this.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of times they're generating these insights

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Speaker 2: on their own.

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Speaker 1: And talk to me about what we know about our

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Speaker 1: own insights when it comes to love and romance. You know,

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Speaker 1: if you had to guess kind of how much we're

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Speaker 1: accurate versus how much we're inaccurate, you know, what would

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Speaker 1: the finding show.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's a fifty to fifty proposition. I think

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Speaker 2: there are some times when people have really good insights

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Speaker 2: and instincts when it comes to relationships. I think generally speaking,

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Speaker 2: most people recognize that relationships require a certain amount of

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Speaker 2: vulnerability and a certain amount of self disclosure and give

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Speaker 2: and take. And that's going to be required to build

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Speaker 2: a relationship in the first place, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: be required to sustain closeness over time. So this is

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Speaker 2: one area. And we see this in the films too.

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Speaker 2: They do a pretty good job of making this clear. Right,

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Speaker 2: whether you're talking about people initiating relationships with each other

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Speaker 2: or you're talking about people maintaining a relationship, that is

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Speaker 2: a message that comes through fairly well.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean there's a bunch of movies that do

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Speaker 5: this really effectively, And one of the movies that we

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Speaker 5: had in season one is Before Sunrise, which is basically

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Speaker 5: a movie that's about, again, your audience may be familiar

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Speaker 5: with this, but two people we'll meet on a train

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Speaker 5: on a url pass basically in Europe and spontaneously get

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Speaker 5: up the train and then spend the evening together in Vienna,

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Speaker 5: And basically it's a film about them walking around the

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Speaker 5: city and talking to each other. And what the film

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Speaker 5: captures beautifully, among other things, is this process through which

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Speaker 5: people confide intimate information with each other. How we start

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Speaker 5: as strangers and then I get to know a little

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Speaker 5: bit about you, you get to know a little bit

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Speaker 5: about me. And the beautiful thing about that movie in

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Speaker 5: particular is that it puts that whole relationship initiation process,

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Speaker 5: this process of getting to know each other, including really

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Speaker 5: intimate information, in a turbocharger. And again, that's something that

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Speaker 5: I think people do have decent instincts about this, and

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Speaker 5: the films generally get right the process through which intimacy

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Speaker 5: generally develops in relationships.

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Speaker 1: And so let's dive into that franchise, because this actually

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Speaker 1: is one of the kind of if you had to

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Speaker 1: pick a few tips that you've learned from rom comms

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Speaker 1: and rom doms that really get relationship science right. It

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Speaker 1: seems like the Before Sunrise, Before Sunset franchise is one

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Speaker 1: of those eli do you want to do a quick

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Speaker 1: plot summary on Before Sunset?

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Speaker 5: I love this movie. It's not something that we did

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Speaker 5: in season one. We just did Before Sunrise in season one,

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Speaker 5: but I did watch all three in advance of our episode,

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Speaker 5: and in brief In the first movie, they get to

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Speaker 5: know each other and they spend the night together and

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Speaker 5: then they make this plan to meet up again, and

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Speaker 5: that's basically where the first movie ends. Second movie and

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Speaker 5: he Jesse played by Ethan Hawk, is on a book

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Speaker 5: tour and he's on a book tour in Paris, and

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Speaker 5: then while he's doing an event at a bookstore, Selene

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Speaker 5: walks in, and what we discover is he had arrived

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Speaker 5: six months later when he was supposed to and she

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Speaker 5: couldn't because her grandmother had passed away, and so he

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Speaker 5: had written a book about their experience, and now he's

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Speaker 5: on this tour, and then the rest of that movie,

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Speaker 5: now they're walking around a different European city and you know,

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Speaker 5: I don't want to ruin the end. But the tension

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Speaker 5: in the movie is that he has a flight back

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Speaker 5: to the States that leaves that evening right before sunset

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Speaker 5: is the second movie, and she keeps saying, you're about

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Speaker 5: to miss your plane. You're about to miss your plane.

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Speaker 5: And they're having these amazing conversations and these amazing settings.

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Speaker 2: And reconsidering and revisiting many of their major life decisions

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Speaker 2: in the process. And to watch again a process that

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Speaker 2: when people are going to upend their lives, they usually

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Speaker 2: take I don't know, a few months to do it.

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Speaker 2: But now we're going to see that whole thing happen

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Speaker 2: in a very compressed period of time. So it's in

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Speaker 2: many ways the same conceit, but now we're seeing this

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Speaker 2: whole different relationship process happening very very fast.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm trying to guess what the major correct

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Speaker 1: relationship insight I'm supposed to take from this, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: visit European cities with Ethan hawk, Like apend your life

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Speaker 1: in twenty four hours.

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Speaker 3: That's it. I mean, that would be a good one.

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Speaker 5: Like if if you know it is an opportunity that's

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Speaker 5: available to you, I'd recommend it, or Julie delp would

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Speaker 5: be great too. I mean, that movie's tricky. This is

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Speaker 5: again the second movie in the series, the Before Sunset film,

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Speaker 5: and the reason why it's tricky is that has this

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Speaker 5: really interesting moral complication is that he by this point

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Speaker 5: has gotten married and has a son, and so when

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Speaker 5: Paul talks about how these major like decisions are happening quickly,

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Speaker 5: Jesse didn't realize that Selene was going to show up

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Speaker 5: at this reading. He thought you was gone forever, and

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Speaker 5: he built this alternative life, and then over a course

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Speaker 5: of a few hours of walking around Paris has basically

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Speaker 5: uprooted all of it now for a second time in

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Speaker 5: a really different sort of way from the first movie,

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Speaker 5: and the third movie engages with something different when they're

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Speaker 5: now in their forties and have a family together, and

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Speaker 5: all three of the films deal with those sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: Okay, so what's the relationship insight here though?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So, I think if one is going to take a

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Speaker 2: lesson from these movies, it's that any amount of intense

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Speaker 2: self disclosure that you're going to get into with somebody

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Speaker 2: is going to build a lot of intimacy and has

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Speaker 2: the potential to build a connection. Although again, if you're

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Speaker 2: in a relationship that you'd like to keep, then be

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Speaker 2: careful who you're doing that with because it might seem like, oh,

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Speaker 2: we're just like harmlessly getting to know each other, strolling

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Speaker 2: around this gorgeous European city, and before you know it,

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Speaker 2: you are now really questioning some of your life choices.

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Speaker 2: There are a really fastudy by Art Aaron back in

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Speaker 2: the nineties, often called the thirty six question Study. But

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Speaker 2: what he does is he takes unacquainted pairs, gives them

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Speaker 2: these questions would escalate in intensity, escalate in the degree

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Speaker 2: to which they elicit intimacy and vulnerability. And what he

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Speaker 2: shows with enormous effect sizes is you can get two

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Speaker 2: people to really like each other if they go through

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Speaker 2: this sixteen to ninety minute process. So again, that's great

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Speaker 2: if you're looking to build a relationship. Those are good tips.

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Speaker 2: You know, if you're not looking to build a new relationship,

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Speaker 2: be really careful with how you do that.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things I love about the Aaron

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Speaker 1: study is that you forget that you can continue building

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Speaker 1: that relationship with a long term partner. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons relationships kind of often fall

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Speaker 1: into kind of boringness, is that we're not doing that vulnerability,

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Speaker 1: that sort of morements of disclosure, They kind of fall

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Speaker 1: by the wayside when you've been with somebody five years,

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Speaker 1: ten years, twenty years. Do you think we can use

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Speaker 1: that same kind of technique eli for kind of building

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Speaker 1: current relationships.

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Speaker 5: The brief answer is I think so, But the full

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Speaker 5: answer is I don't think we know, because the question

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Speaker 5: is why do people stop doing this as much? I

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Speaker 5: share your premise people don't do this as much later on.

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Speaker 5: One possibility is what you're suggesting that you know, they

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Speaker 5: get distracted or they just don't prioritize it to the

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Speaker 5: same degree. Another possibility is we know quite a bit

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Speaker 5: about each other after twenty years, and so this idea

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Speaker 5: that there's some like big well of discovery to start

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Speaker 5: exploring makes it tricky. But nonetheless, there's always more to know,

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Speaker 5: there's always more sort of new perspectives on things, or

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Speaker 5: you know, going for example, to a thought provoking film

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Speaker 5: and discussing that these options are always always always available

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Speaker 5: to us. So I think it's a little bit in

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Speaker 5: the column of it's easier to have big discovery before

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Speaker 5: you really know each other, and also we get into

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Speaker 5: ruts and sort of lazy habits and don't bother to

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Speaker 5: try to rekindle some of these high intensity, high emotion

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Speaker 5: sorts of experiences.

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Speaker 1: I think another great thing that we learned from this

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Speaker 1: study is the fact that that kind of self disclosure

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Speaker 1: is actually positive. I think so many of us have

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Speaker 1: the misconception that like kind of sharing our messiness might

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Speaker 1: be yucky. But of course social scientists have talked about

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Speaker 1: this beautiful mess effect, right, Paul, what's that effect?

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Speaker 4: And Kin, how does it play out here?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So people often when they're trying to make an initial

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Speaker 2: impression on somebody, they want that impression to be good.

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Speaker 2: They want to come across perfectly, they want to self promote,

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Speaker 2: and often those instincts are really misguided. What people really

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Speaker 2: find appealing in those early moments is, like you put it,

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Speaker 2: a little bit of messiness, a little bit of vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: You know, old classic study, right, the person who's kind

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Speaker 2: of a klutz ends up being more appealing than the

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Speaker 2: person who's fully put together. And these are examples of

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Speaker 2: how we can make ourselves open and seem approachable to

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Speaker 2: another person, and it also makes us interesting. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there actually isn't a lot that's very interesting about somebody

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Speaker 2: who's fully put together. You know, it's not clear why

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Speaker 2: they would be interested in us because they're fully put together.

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Speaker 2: So having a little bit of vulnerability opens up an

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Speaker 2: opportunity for more connection in a way that the movies

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Speaker 2: often get right and sometimes we kind of miss when

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Speaker 2: we get into resume exchange mode on dates. I got

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Speaker 2: to come off as good as I can because I

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Speaker 2: know there are all these other competitors out there, and

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Speaker 2: I got to be the best.

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Speaker 1: It's time for a quick break, but Paul Eli and

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Speaker 1: I will be back soon.

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Speaker 4: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So that was first insight that we get from rom

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Speaker 1: COM's positive insight that self disclosure often a good thing.

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Speaker 1: Try to promote more of it. Now we're going to

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Speaker 1: get to big tip number two, which comes from a

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Speaker 1: classic rom Com one that I've seen, although very very

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Speaker 1: long time ago. When Harry met Sally. Who wants to

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Speaker 1: do the When Harry met Sally two second plot twist?

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Speaker 3: Paul, here's the arc.

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Speaker 2: When Harry met Sally, they first meet, they don't like

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Speaker 2: each other very much. Five years past, they meet again,

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Speaker 2: they don't like each other very much. Five years pass again,

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Speaker 2: and now they kind of hit it off. They form

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Speaker 2: this genuine friendship that goes on for a few years,

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Speaker 2: and they go to each other as confidants. They try

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Speaker 2: to set each other up on dates with some of

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Speaker 2: their friends. It doesn't really work out, but it's a

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Speaker 2: genuine friendship that we see for the majority of that movie.

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Speaker 2: And of course, you know, there is the rom com

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Speaker 2: trouble if they do get together at the end in

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Speaker 2: a romantic way. Okay, But what this movie nails is

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Speaker 2: what's often called the friends to lovers pathway, the idea

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Speaker 2: that people are commonly good friends before they form a

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Speaker 2: relationship with each other. And it's often underappreciated just how

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Speaker 2: common that pathway is. Some re search by Danie Stinson

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Speaker 2: and colleagues suggests that it's something on the order of

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of relationships forms through that route. So that's

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Speaker 2: reflected in the movie.

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Speaker 1: Really well, I'm glad you explained what it was about,

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Speaker 1: because I was like, does it have to do with

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Speaker 1: the orgasms scene?

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Speaker 4: That's all I remember from them?

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Speaker 3: Is there any other scene in that movie?

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Speaker 4: We're supposed to fake our orgasms, and we're supposed to

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Speaker 4: not fake our orgasoms.

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Speaker 1: So I think this idea that the arc of the

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Speaker 1: relationship matters is really important.

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Speaker 4: You know, what kind of advice do we get? Are there?

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Speaker 1: Kind of obviously this sort of friends to partners arc

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Speaker 1: is a pretty good one.

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Speaker 4: Are there other good arcs that we should think about?

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Speaker 5: Eli Sometimes when we're single and looking, it can feel like,

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Speaker 5: how are we going to meet new people? You know,

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Speaker 5: where are we going to go to try to meet

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Speaker 5: new people? And luckily, now we can just swipe left

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Speaker 5: and right. Well, luckily and unluckily you can do all

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Speaker 5: that stuff. And one of the things that we I

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Speaker 5: think underutilize is that that's not the way, at least historically,

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Speaker 5: at least until very recently, that relationships have really begun,

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Speaker 5: and to a significant degree, they still emerge from our

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Speaker 5: existing social networks, from people that we already know.

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Speaker 3: And Paul, you've studied this bit.

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Speaker 5: But there's this like view that there's the one night

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Speaker 5: stand or that we met and we've never met before

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Speaker 5: and we started a relationship, and that is just a

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Speaker 5: vast oversimplification of how relationship initiation works.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think people often think that the way

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Speaker 2: you start a relationship is you like arm yourself with

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Speaker 2: some really good pickup lines, and you know who to approach,

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Speaker 2: and you know, thirty minutes start to finish, I did it.

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Speaker 2: I started a relationship. And it's just those skills. The

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Speaker 2: ability to approach somebody and make them experience desire for

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Speaker 2: you in minutes or even hours is a rare and

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Speaker 2: rather unnecessary skill. Historically speaking, that wasn't how most people

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Speaker 2: did it. You get to know people, some people grow

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Speaker 2: on you, some people don't, but you're within these networks

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Speaker 2: that shift and grow and change, and that's where most.

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Speaker 3: Relationships come from. It's very easy to lose.

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Speaker 2: Sight of that in the modern world of online dating,

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Speaker 2: and I think online dating pushes us to think we

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Speaker 2: need these skills that most of us historically have not

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Speaker 2: really needed.

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Speaker 1: So that's for people who are kind of starting out

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Speaker 1: relationships and just sort of dating, the sort of arc

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Speaker 1: kind of matters. It doesn't work the way we think,

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Speaker 1: what can people who've been in relationships for a long

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Speaker 1: time tape from the movie.

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Speaker 2: I think in a lot of ongoing relationships, people develop

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Speaker 2: these narratives about who we are as a couple, how

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Speaker 2: we came to be this way, and these narratives are

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Speaker 2: really important. I mean, having a coherent and positive narrative

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Speaker 2: definitely predicts things like relationship satisfaction, right, how stable people's

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Speaker 2: relationships are. And it's also important to keep in mind

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Speaker 2: that relationships often change.

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Speaker 3: With the seasons too.

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Speaker 2: Somebody takes a new job, right, Maybe there are kids

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Speaker 2: that come into the relationship.

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Speaker 3: Somebody just comes by and like, lose them. I don't

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Speaker 3: know how to show up.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I drop off, Yes, hey.

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Speaker 3: Go, I got this kid for you.

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Speaker 2: But relationships go through these dramatic changes too, and I

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Speaker 2: think it's very easy for people to remember and stay

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Speaker 2: locked into their early narratives and patterns about who we are. Right,

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Speaker 2: we are the fun couple, we are the couple that

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Speaker 2: stays out late, and now we have a two year old.

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Speaker 2: And does that make it feel like you're losing yourself,

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Speaker 2: You're losing your identity for who you are as a couple.

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Speaker 2: Or can you try to reinvent who you are as

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Speaker 2: a couple to fit the new reality. These are also

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Speaker 2: places where people have challenges and how they adapt to

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Speaker 2: those circumstances can be really important.

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Speaker 3: You know, we saw that in Lalla Land. Right.

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Speaker 5: This is one of the things that I think was

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Speaker 5: not obvious in La La Land, but was an interesting

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Speaker 5: aspect which is so Sebastian played by the ever gorgeous

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Speaker 5: Ryan Gosling, he is a very, very traditional jazz enthusiast.

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Speaker 5: He's like, on this crusade to save traditional jazz. He

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Speaker 5: then ends up in like a jazz fusion band and

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Speaker 5: it's pretty popular, but because of how much he's always

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Speaker 5: cared about traditional jazz, his girlfriend Mia played by the

435
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Speaker 5: Oscar winning Emma Stone, can't really understand what he's doing.

436
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Speaker 5: So even though now he's in this other band and

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Speaker 5: he's kind of enjoying it, she's like, this isn't you

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Speaker 5: and I don't get it, And so, you know, one

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00:21:21,236 --> 00:21:23,516
Speaker 5: of the interpretations of what happens in that film is

440
00:21:23,516 --> 00:21:26,556
Speaker 5: that he changed, that his goals changed in ways that

441
00:21:26,596 --> 00:21:29,516
Speaker 5: she didn't really track, and therefore she's supporting one of

442
00:21:29,516 --> 00:21:31,556
Speaker 5: his goals that's no longer what his current goal is.

443
00:21:31,596 --> 00:21:35,036
Speaker 5: And they're narrative about who each other is is no

444
00:21:35,116 --> 00:21:37,996
Speaker 5: longer fitting the changed version of who they are now.

445
00:21:37,836 --> 00:21:39,996
Speaker 4: And so any advice for how to kind of update

446
00:21:40,036 --> 00:21:42,596
Speaker 4: those narratives and kind of understand I mean.

447
00:21:42,996 --> 00:21:47,436
Speaker 2: A good relationships therapists, right, A good couples therapists will

448
00:21:47,436 --> 00:21:50,236
Speaker 2: come in and will try to get people to unpack

449
00:21:50,556 --> 00:21:54,156
Speaker 2: all of the unspoken assumptions that people have about why

450
00:21:54,196 --> 00:21:56,556
Speaker 2: we're doing this thing and why it works best that

451
00:21:56,596 --> 00:21:58,956
Speaker 2: we interact like this, and why it's best that we're

452
00:21:58,996 --> 00:22:01,916
Speaker 2: pursuing these goals. So to unpack it all, put it

453
00:22:01,996 --> 00:22:05,516
Speaker 2: on the table, and then identify, Look, these things seem

454
00:22:05,556 --> 00:22:07,996
Speaker 2: to be conflicting with the new reality. What can we

455
00:22:08,116 --> 00:22:11,436
Speaker 2: take away, what can we change, what can we alter

456
00:22:11,996 --> 00:22:14,996
Speaker 2: in order to make these pieces fit again? So this

457
00:22:15,116 --> 00:22:17,196
Speaker 2: is what couples therapists are really good at. But you

458
00:22:17,196 --> 00:22:19,076
Speaker 2: don't have to have a couples therapists in order to

459
00:22:19,116 --> 00:22:22,996
Speaker 2: be able to do some of that rearranging of the pieces.

460
00:22:23,236 --> 00:22:28,076
Speaker 2: But it's not easy because we're often very defensive about

461
00:22:28,236 --> 00:22:30,116
Speaker 2: you know, why we behave this way, or why we

462
00:22:30,196 --> 00:22:32,716
Speaker 2: have this goal, or you know, but you had said this,

463
00:22:32,916 --> 00:22:36,436
Speaker 2: and we hold people to things that they said years earlier,

464
00:22:36,996 --> 00:22:41,956
Speaker 2: and so having some amount of humility and flexibility and

465
00:22:42,036 --> 00:22:44,796
Speaker 2: the ability to reflect in this meta way about what

466
00:22:44,996 --> 00:22:48,236
Speaker 2: exactly are we fighting about? Is it really about you know,

467
00:22:48,516 --> 00:22:50,156
Speaker 2: you stayed out late, but I was expecting you to

468
00:22:50,156 --> 00:22:52,756
Speaker 2: come home, or is it about these broader goals that

469
00:22:52,796 --> 00:22:55,516
Speaker 2: we once had that kind of don't fit our current reality,

470
00:22:55,556 --> 00:22:57,556
Speaker 2: and is there anything here that we can change to

471
00:22:57,596 --> 00:22:58,476
Speaker 2: make this work better.

472
00:22:58,676 --> 00:23:00,676
Speaker 1: Now we get to tip number three that rom comms

473
00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:04,236
Speaker 1: get right, and this one is from a kind of

474
00:23:04,516 --> 00:23:08,436
Speaker 1: oddball movie. I think Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind,

475
00:23:08,716 --> 00:23:12,556
Speaker 1: which I saw many many years ago but totally don't remember,

476
00:23:12,556 --> 00:23:15,316
Speaker 1: except they're like lying on some beach in Montalk or something.

477
00:23:15,356 --> 00:23:17,956
Speaker 1: That's like the whole memory I have of this film.

478
00:23:18,116 --> 00:23:20,276
Speaker 1: Who wants to do the thirty seconds on it?

479
00:23:20,516 --> 00:23:23,676
Speaker 5: Well, I'm delighted that the main experience you have of

480
00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:25,996
Speaker 5: this movie is failing to remember it, because that is

481
00:23:26,036 --> 00:23:29,036
Speaker 5: of course what the movie is, right. They erase their

482
00:23:29,036 --> 00:23:32,676
Speaker 5: memories of each other. This is Clementine and Joel. They

483
00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:34,796
Speaker 5: release their they erase their memories of each other. And

484
00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:38,316
Speaker 5: one of the messages that this movie gets to it

485
00:23:38,516 --> 00:23:40,796
Speaker 5: is related to what we were talking about a little

486
00:23:40,796 --> 00:23:47,356
Speaker 5: bit ago, which is that relationships are tied to a

487
00:23:47,436 --> 00:23:51,996
Speaker 5: specific person. That is, it's not just that you know,

488
00:23:52,076 --> 00:23:55,796
Speaker 5: if you find somebody who matches me on certain dimensions,

489
00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,196
Speaker 5: we're going to get along. No, it's the sculpting and

490
00:23:58,276 --> 00:24:00,956
Speaker 5: the building of relationships over time. That's what we mean

491
00:24:01,036 --> 00:24:04,796
Speaker 5: when we talk about relationships as microcultures. And the reason

492
00:24:04,916 --> 00:24:08,356
Speaker 5: why Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind gets this so

493
00:24:08,916 --> 00:24:13,436
Speaker 5: right is that one of the characters has access to

494
00:24:13,636 --> 00:24:17,356
Speaker 5: like weirdly intimate information about something that happened in somebody

495
00:24:17,356 --> 00:24:20,076
Speaker 5: else's relationship and then tries to do the same thing

496
00:24:20,196 --> 00:24:23,436
Speaker 5: and fails. So let me be specific about this. They're

497
00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:26,676
Speaker 5: erasing Joel Barris's memory. He's the one played against type

498
00:24:26,716 --> 00:24:31,396
Speaker 5: by Jim Carrey. He's trying to forget his memories of Clementine,

499
00:24:31,476 --> 00:24:35,316
Speaker 5: who's played by Kate Winslet. But in this process of

500
00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:38,716
Speaker 5: having a memories erased by the company named Lacuna Ink

501
00:24:38,756 --> 00:24:41,476
Speaker 5: who does the memory eraser, one of the really creepy

502
00:24:41,516 --> 00:24:46,236
Speaker 5: guys who works there now knows everything Joel did with

503
00:24:46,316 --> 00:24:49,276
Speaker 5: Clementine to get him to like her so much, the

504
00:24:49,276 --> 00:24:52,276
Speaker 5: things that he did that were just incredibly effective, including

505
00:24:52,356 --> 00:24:55,116
Speaker 5: nicknames and including which gifts he gave her and when,

506
00:24:55,196 --> 00:24:57,316
Speaker 5: and he knows that her memory has been erased too.

507
00:24:57,396 --> 00:25:00,236
Speaker 5: That is, this creeper played by Elijah Wood knows that

508
00:25:00,596 --> 00:25:02,956
Speaker 5: both of them have had their memories erased, so he

509
00:25:03,076 --> 00:25:06,916
Speaker 5: tries to go and basically get Clementine doing the things

510
00:25:06,916 --> 00:25:10,836
Speaker 5: that he knows full well she really dug when Joel

511
00:25:10,916 --> 00:25:14,596
Speaker 5: did it, and they are colossal fails. And the lesson here,

512
00:25:14,636 --> 00:25:17,796
Speaker 5: which I think is really crucial and illustrated perfectly in

513
00:25:17,836 --> 00:25:20,996
Speaker 5: this movie, is that it's not a copy paste way

514
00:25:21,036 --> 00:25:24,556
Speaker 5: to relationship success. It's not like you can say everything

515
00:25:24,596 --> 00:25:27,956
Speaker 5: that I did with Alice was effective, and therefore I'm

516
00:25:27,956 --> 00:25:30,596
Speaker 5: going to do the exact same things with you know, Janita,

517
00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:34,356
Speaker 5: and that'll be effective. No, we have to track and

518
00:25:34,556 --> 00:25:37,236
Speaker 5: tailor what it is we're doing to the like authentic

519
00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:41,436
Speaker 5: growth of this particular relationship. It's not a story about

520
00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:44,156
Speaker 5: finding people who do the things we like in general.

521
00:25:44,196 --> 00:25:47,676
Speaker 5: It's finding people who adapt with us in ways that

522
00:25:47,836 --> 00:25:54,196
Speaker 5: make our own little unique microculture effective rather than like venomous.

523
00:25:54,356 --> 00:25:58,756
Speaker 2: Sometimes people use the term strategic or strategy when it

524
00:25:58,796 --> 00:26:02,556
Speaker 2: comes to all aspects of relationships, whether it's initiating, whether

525
00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:06,076
Speaker 2: it's maintaining relationships, like, oh, you've got to find the

526
00:26:06,156 --> 00:26:09,636
Speaker 2: right strategies to make yourself appealing, to make part happy,

527
00:26:09,676 --> 00:26:11,516
Speaker 2: et cetera. And I don't want to throw out that

528
00:26:11,636 --> 00:26:15,076
Speaker 2: concept entirely, but I do think it is misleading for

529
00:26:15,116 --> 00:26:19,556
Speaker 2: exactly this reason, because a strategy for most people implies,

530
00:26:19,676 --> 00:26:21,876
Speaker 2: I'm going to learn how to do this skill, and

531
00:26:21,876 --> 00:26:24,636
Speaker 2: then wherever I take this skill, it's going to be effective.

532
00:26:24,796 --> 00:26:27,596
Speaker 2: And the lesson we get from Eternal Sunshine, and the

533
00:26:27,676 --> 00:26:30,436
Speaker 2: lesson that we get from the science too, is that

534
00:26:30,436 --> 00:26:34,116
Speaker 2: that's not really how it works. That what makes one

535
00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:37,156
Speaker 2: person appeal to us is going to be totally different

536
00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:39,716
Speaker 2: from the reasons that somebody else appeals to us. What's

537
00:26:39,756 --> 00:26:44,036
Speaker 2: going to make this relationship satisfying and fulfilling. The things

538
00:26:44,076 --> 00:26:47,636
Speaker 2: we're gonna do to make that happen are jointly co constructed.

539
00:26:47,996 --> 00:26:50,356
Speaker 2: And if I try to take those ideas and copy

540
00:26:50,436 --> 00:26:53,876
Speaker 2: paste them onto the next relationship, it's not really gonna work.

541
00:26:54,116 --> 00:26:55,876
Speaker 2: You know, maybe you can sort of start with that

542
00:26:55,996 --> 00:26:57,836
Speaker 2: and then alter it and try to make it work

543
00:26:57,876 --> 00:27:00,596
Speaker 2: with this new person. But the idea that you can

544
00:27:00,636 --> 00:27:03,556
Speaker 2: develop a set of strategies that's going to be universally

545
00:27:03,556 --> 00:27:06,796
Speaker 2: effective across partners this is this is not a good

546
00:27:06,796 --> 00:27:10,316
Speaker 2: way to think about it, and Sunshine seems to know this.

547
00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:12,596
Speaker 1: I like this advice because it also seems like if

548
00:27:12,596 --> 00:27:15,476
Speaker 1: you had some strategy that you kind of liked or

549
00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:18,596
Speaker 1: maybe part of a relationship microculture that really resonated with you,

550
00:27:18,756 --> 00:27:22,076
Speaker 1: and maybe a former partner wasn't that into it. It

551
00:27:22,076 --> 00:27:24,116
Speaker 1: doesn't mean it's never going to work again. You might

552
00:27:24,156 --> 00:27:26,716
Speaker 1: find somebody else who kind of really gets that either

553
00:27:26,836 --> 00:27:29,316
Speaker 1: your humor or your goofy is or whatever it has

554
00:27:29,356 --> 00:27:29,636
Speaker 1: to be.

555
00:27:29,716 --> 00:27:32,636
Speaker 4: So hang tight. Your Kate win Slant might be out

556
00:27:32,676 --> 00:27:34,076
Speaker 4: there waiting for you.

557
00:27:34,356 --> 00:27:36,236
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's exactly right.

558
00:27:36,636 --> 00:27:41,956
Speaker 2: And people often have core things that they want a

559
00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:45,916
Speaker 2: relationship to be built around, and I do think that's

560
00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:50,036
Speaker 2: a useful way of thinking about like what your deal

561
00:27:50,076 --> 00:27:52,916
Speaker 2: breakers might be or whether this relationship doesn't work for

562
00:27:52,956 --> 00:27:56,396
Speaker 2: you that you really want to be able to connect

563
00:27:56,476 --> 00:27:59,116
Speaker 2: with this person over X, y Z, and if you're

564
00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:02,476
Speaker 2: having trouble making that happen, that could be something that

565
00:28:02,556 --> 00:28:05,156
Speaker 2: you can't get past with this particular person.

566
00:28:05,436 --> 00:28:08,716
Speaker 3: But my advice is often try not to go into

567
00:28:08,756 --> 00:28:12,156
Speaker 3: it with very strong assumptions about what you need that

568
00:28:12,236 --> 00:28:14,876
Speaker 3: person to do and assume that there's going to be

569
00:28:14,956 --> 00:28:18,436
Speaker 3: some joint construction that's going to happen along the way.

570
00:28:18,756 --> 00:28:21,396
Speaker 1: All right. So those were our positive tips from rom coms.

571
00:28:21,396 --> 00:28:23,076
Speaker 1: So when we get back from the break, we're going

572
00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:26,076
Speaker 1: to turn to what rom coms get wrong, Happiness Lab.

573
00:28:26,116 --> 00:28:26,876
Speaker 4: We'll be right back.

574
00:28:27,036 --> 00:28:37,956
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So I'm curious as we start this section

575
00:28:38,356 --> 00:28:41,996
Speaker 1: with your relationship science background, are you ever like, you know,

576
00:28:42,036 --> 00:28:44,196
Speaker 1: in the middle of some new rom com and watching

577
00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:47,716
Speaker 1: it and then just the characters do something and just

578
00:28:47,796 --> 00:28:49,636
Speaker 1: from a scientific perspective.

579
00:28:49,196 --> 00:28:53,596
Speaker 4: You're just like no, like, no, oh, you're both nodding.

580
00:28:53,836 --> 00:28:55,556
Speaker 4: This seems like this comes up a lot from the

581
00:28:55,716 --> 00:28:56,516
Speaker 4: nods I'm seeing.

582
00:28:56,556 --> 00:28:58,356
Speaker 3: Eli, Yes, I do this.

583
00:28:58,516 --> 00:29:00,916
Speaker 5: I kind of wish I didn't, right, Like, I there's

584
00:29:00,916 --> 00:29:03,636
Speaker 5: sometimes that I want to watch something in the role

585
00:29:03,716 --> 00:29:05,916
Speaker 5: of critic and sometimes I just want to like bask

586
00:29:05,956 --> 00:29:09,396
Speaker 5: in the enjoyment of it. But yeah, it's hard to

587
00:29:09,956 --> 00:29:12,916
Speaker 5: unknow the things that we know about what's effective and

588
00:29:12,916 --> 00:29:16,556
Speaker 5: what's ineffective in general, as at least for me as

589
00:29:16,596 --> 00:29:17,956
Speaker 5: I watch something on the screen.

590
00:29:18,076 --> 00:29:20,356
Speaker 1: So let's get into some of the kind of misleading

591
00:29:20,396 --> 00:29:23,436
Speaker 1: messages that we get from rom coms, starting with one

592
00:29:23,476 --> 00:29:25,636
Speaker 1: that breaks my heart because it's one of my only

593
00:29:25,796 --> 00:29:30,116
Speaker 1: favorite rom coms out there. Clueless. I like already like,

594
00:29:30,196 --> 00:29:32,276
Speaker 1: don't believe this premise. I don't think share Horowitz can

595
00:29:32,356 --> 00:29:34,356
Speaker 1: do anything wrong. But maybe it was the movie. It

596
00:29:34,396 --> 00:29:35,876
Speaker 1: wasn't it wasn't Share herself.

597
00:29:35,916 --> 00:29:36,596
Speaker 3: So you're right.

598
00:29:37,556 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 1: For all the folks out there that don't know clueless,

599
00:29:39,796 --> 00:29:41,876
Speaker 1: sad folks, you are go see it right now. Who

600
00:29:41,916 --> 00:29:44,116
Speaker 1: wants to do the thirty thirty second on Clueless?

601
00:29:44,156 --> 00:29:44,756
Speaker 4: Maybe I'll do it.

602
00:29:44,796 --> 00:29:47,396
Speaker 3: I'll do it the product.

603
00:29:47,076 --> 00:29:49,676
Speaker 4: Way Clueless is share Horowitz.

604
00:29:49,756 --> 00:29:53,076
Speaker 1: Alicia Silverstone, very popular girl in high school, decides she's

605
00:29:53,116 --> 00:29:55,956
Speaker 1: going to use her powers to like match everybody up together.

606
00:29:56,076 --> 00:29:58,716
Speaker 1: I think she starts with a teacher, but then she

607
00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:01,876
Speaker 1: takes her kind of slightly dumpy friend, kind.

608
00:30:01,756 --> 00:30:03,476
Speaker 4: Of teen Britney Murphy.

609
00:30:03,996 --> 00:30:06,276
Speaker 1: It hooks her up with somebody, but then the dumby

610
00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:09,836
Speaker 1: friend tie I think, becomes even more popular. She realizes,

611
00:30:09,876 --> 00:30:12,796
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I've been using my powers poorly and

612
00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:15,996
Speaker 1: realizes that this was an insight that she's heard from

613
00:30:16,036 --> 00:30:19,716
Speaker 1: her stepbrother, amazingly cute looking Paul Rudd, and she figures out,

614
00:30:19,756 --> 00:30:21,596
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm in love with Paul Rudd, and

615
00:30:21,636 --> 00:30:24,436
Speaker 1: then magic of rom com makes everything work out.

616
00:30:24,996 --> 00:30:27,636
Speaker 3: I think the phrase is she's but crazy.

617
00:30:27,876 --> 00:30:32,716
Speaker 1: Crazy, Yes, exactly, So how is this misleading us when

618
00:30:32,716 --> 00:30:34,396
Speaker 1: it comes to the science of relationships?

619
00:30:34,436 --> 00:30:35,596
Speaker 4: What is this movie getting wrong?

620
00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:37,116
Speaker 5: Paul I'm happy for you to do it, but can

621
00:30:37,116 --> 00:30:40,476
Speaker 5: we just acknowledge that we're just bad people and that

622
00:30:40,596 --> 00:30:43,396
Speaker 5: really this movie has done nothing wrong and that everybody

623
00:30:43,436 --> 00:30:45,436
Speaker 5: who loves this movie is one hundred percent correct.

624
00:30:45,836 --> 00:30:51,396
Speaker 2: I completely endorse that statement, and Share is my personal hero.

625
00:30:51,796 --> 00:30:56,836
Speaker 2: That being said, there is an important assumption that she articulates,

626
00:30:57,436 --> 00:31:01,636
Speaker 2: which is that there are popular people and the unpopular people,

627
00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:05,076
Speaker 2: and her goal is to turn Tie into one of

628
00:31:05,116 --> 00:31:08,076
Speaker 2: the quote unquote popular girls so she can date one

629
00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:11,996
Speaker 2: of the very few acceptable boys at this high school

630
00:31:12,036 --> 00:31:16,356
Speaker 2: in SHARE's eyes. And in order for her to do

631
00:31:16,716 --> 00:31:19,396
Speaker 2: her magical work, she has to do a couple of

632
00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:22,836
Speaker 2: things related to messages that lead us astray. One is

633
00:31:22,876 --> 00:31:26,516
Speaker 2: that she plays the game of desirability as a project.

634
00:31:26,836 --> 00:31:31,276
Speaker 2: So you need to boost your attributes in various ways

635
00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:34,476
Speaker 2: in order to make yourself appealing to other people. Right, So,

636
00:31:34,796 --> 00:31:37,156
Speaker 2: when Tie comes in, we are to understand that she

637
00:31:37,436 --> 00:31:40,716
Speaker 2: is not desirable and she must have things done to

638
00:31:40,756 --> 00:31:44,356
Speaker 2: her to make her appealing and acceptable. Now, the movie

639
00:31:44,556 --> 00:31:47,796
Speaker 2: actually knows that this is silly, because the reality is

640
00:31:47,876 --> 00:31:50,276
Speaker 2: that she was always meant to be with skater boy Travis,

641
00:31:50,276 --> 00:31:52,236
Speaker 2: and that could have happened in minute two of the movie.

642
00:31:52,476 --> 00:31:54,236
Speaker 2: But we have to wait for a minute eighty eight

643
00:31:54,276 --> 00:31:56,916
Speaker 2: and that's fine, and that's great. So the movie knows

644
00:31:57,236 --> 00:32:01,156
Speaker 2: that this is an idea that leads us astray. But

645
00:32:01,236 --> 00:32:03,236
Speaker 2: the second thing, and this is the one that is

646
00:32:03,436 --> 00:32:06,676
Speaker 2: really tied to some of the complexities in the science,

647
00:32:07,116 --> 00:32:10,476
Speaker 2: has to do with agreement about who is desirable and

648
00:32:10,516 --> 00:32:10,996
Speaker 2: who is not.

649
00:32:11,196 --> 00:32:12,636
Speaker 3: Because this movie is playing.

650
00:32:12,356 --> 00:32:16,516
Speaker 2: With ideas that I think take for granted that there

651
00:32:16,596 --> 00:32:20,956
Speaker 2: is a clear hierarchy of desirability, with popular people and

652
00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:26,036
Speaker 2: middlingly popular people and unpopular people, and people must date

653
00:32:26,236 --> 00:32:30,636
Speaker 2: within their sphere. The reality is that much of the

654
00:32:30,716 --> 00:32:34,956
Speaker 2: time dating doesn't actually work this way, especially in environments

655
00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:37,156
Speaker 2: where people are getting to know each other over time.

656
00:32:37,636 --> 00:32:39,276
Speaker 5: I'd love to reinforce this. I mean, first, I just

657
00:32:39,276 --> 00:32:41,876
Speaker 5: want to ask Paul, did you use the phrase boost

658
00:32:41,916 --> 00:32:44,996
Speaker 5: your attributes? Yes, it seems like there was some subtle

659
00:32:45,036 --> 00:32:49,796
Speaker 5: meaning there that. But I would love LORI, if you'll

660
00:32:49,836 --> 00:32:54,156
Speaker 5: indulge me, to drive this home forcefully. What Paul is

661
00:32:54,236 --> 00:32:59,076
Speaker 5: saying is that this widespread view that pretty much all

662
00:32:59,116 --> 00:33:01,396
Speaker 5: of us seem to adopt, that you know, some people

663
00:33:01,476 --> 00:33:05,556
Speaker 5: are tens and some people are threes. He's basically saying

664
00:33:06,236 --> 00:33:10,036
Speaker 5: that's false, and to a significant degree, he's predicating that

665
00:33:10,076 --> 00:33:13,116
Speaker 5: conclusion in the evidence. He's not saying that there's no

666
00:33:13,156 --> 00:33:17,556
Speaker 5: individual differences at who's conventionally attractive, or that we wouldn't

667
00:33:17,556 --> 00:33:19,876
Speaker 5: agree on that on first meeting. That's for sure true.

668
00:33:19,956 --> 00:33:21,716
Speaker 5: But in terms of who's going to be a good

669
00:33:21,756 --> 00:33:25,756
Speaker 5: relationship partner, almost all of that is driven by who

670
00:33:25,876 --> 00:33:29,316
Speaker 5: is uniquely compatible with us, that is, with whom have

671
00:33:29,516 --> 00:33:32,756
Speaker 5: we built an effective relationship, And almost none of that

672
00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:35,636
Speaker 5: is figuring out that you're a seven and then making

673
00:33:35,716 --> 00:33:38,556
Speaker 5: sure you don't date anybody who's like lower than a seven.

674
00:33:38,996 --> 00:33:40,796
Speaker 5: And the reason why this is such a big deal

675
00:33:40,996 --> 00:33:43,716
Speaker 5: is that it ends up being such a corrosive story

676
00:33:44,276 --> 00:33:46,716
Speaker 5: in the broader marketplace of ideas that you might conclude

677
00:33:46,716 --> 00:33:49,396
Speaker 5: that you're a three, and like, what a catastrophe that

678
00:33:49,436 --> 00:33:51,556
Speaker 5: would be to walk through the world being like, I'm

679
00:33:51,556 --> 00:33:53,836
Speaker 5: a three. I'm just not very datable. People aren't going

680
00:33:53,916 --> 00:33:57,756
Speaker 5: to like me. There's a truer version of reality that

681
00:33:57,836 --> 00:34:00,876
Speaker 5: you're at least an eight for someone, and you know,

682
00:34:00,956 --> 00:34:02,756
Speaker 5: going out there and trying to make it work with

683
00:34:02,836 --> 00:34:05,716
Speaker 5: various people that is totally available to you, and that

684
00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:08,396
Speaker 5: is what I think is the messages that clueless ten

685
00:34:08,436 --> 00:34:10,796
Speaker 5: things I hate about you. They're sending this message that

686
00:34:10,836 --> 00:34:14,436
Speaker 5: there really is a hierarchy and who's objectively awesome to date,

687
00:34:14,636 --> 00:34:16,716
Speaker 5: And there's a little bit of truth in that, but

688
00:34:16,756 --> 00:34:19,876
Speaker 5: there's much more truth to the idea of building something

689
00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,996
Speaker 5: compatible and being tens for each other.

690
00:34:22,116 --> 00:34:23,916
Speaker 1: I think this is so important because it's one thing

691
00:34:23,996 --> 00:34:25,956
Speaker 1: when this kind of idea of like your three and

692
00:34:26,036 --> 00:34:29,116
Speaker 1: that's it kind of plays out in sort of nineties culture,

693
00:34:29,316 --> 00:34:31,156
Speaker 1: like you know, you got to go out to the

694
00:34:31,196 --> 00:34:33,636
Speaker 1: mall and get the new skater pants or something. Yeah,

695
00:34:33,676 --> 00:34:35,836
Speaker 1: but I think there's a much more insidious version of

696
00:34:35,876 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 1: it that exists now and sort of in cell culture

697
00:34:38,676 --> 00:34:42,556
Speaker 1: and online, where people really have these categories and it's

698
00:34:42,596 --> 00:34:45,076
Speaker 1: really fueling some incredibly nasty behavior.

699
00:34:45,116 --> 00:34:46,876
Speaker 4: Paul, you're nodding a lot. Is this the kind of

700
00:34:46,876 --> 00:34:47,876
Speaker 4: thing that you've sort of seen?

701
00:34:48,196 --> 00:34:48,436
Speaker 3: Yeah?

702
00:34:48,636 --> 00:34:52,836
Speaker 2: No, And I worry about this too. I mean, honestly,

703
00:34:52,996 --> 00:34:56,236
Speaker 2: this has been a journey for me over the last

704
00:34:56,276 --> 00:34:59,436
Speaker 2: ten years because the idea that there are tens and

705
00:34:59,476 --> 00:35:03,876
Speaker 2: there are threes goes to some pretty grim places online.

706
00:35:03,956 --> 00:35:06,876
Speaker 2: If you look at things like the red pill ideologies

707
00:35:06,996 --> 00:35:10,796
Speaker 2: or even worse. Black pill ideologygies. And it is not

708
00:35:10,996 --> 00:35:13,836
Speaker 2: lost on me that the people who are talking about

709
00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:17,276
Speaker 2: these ideologies are often talking about other aspects of the science.

710
00:35:17,276 --> 00:35:20,476
Speaker 2: It's actually not usually relationship science that they're pointing towards.

711
00:35:20,756 --> 00:35:24,276
Speaker 2: They're looking at some of the classics. Sometimes it's evolutionary

712
00:35:24,396 --> 00:35:29,036
Speaker 2: inspired research on what people find attractive, And over the

713
00:35:29,076 --> 00:35:33,316
Speaker 2: last ten years it's gone to some pretty depressing places.

714
00:35:33,516 --> 00:35:37,316
Speaker 2: And this point is exactly the one where I want

715
00:35:37,356 --> 00:35:39,436
Speaker 2: to jump up and down and be like, but you're

716
00:35:39,476 --> 00:35:43,956
Speaker 2: misunderstanding the science. All of those studies showing the high

717
00:35:44,036 --> 00:35:47,636
Speaker 2: agreement about who's attractive. We're done with photographs and people

718
00:35:47,636 --> 00:35:50,076
Speaker 2: who are meeting each other for the first time. When

719
00:35:50,116 --> 00:35:52,276
Speaker 2: you put people in situations where they're getting to know

720
00:35:52,356 --> 00:35:55,876
Speaker 2: each other over time, consensus goes down, agreement goes down.

721
00:35:55,996 --> 00:35:58,876
Speaker 2: Some people grow on you and some people don't, and

722
00:35:58,996 --> 00:36:03,396
Speaker 2: this is how most people end up getting relationships. But

723
00:36:03,476 --> 00:36:06,836
Speaker 2: if you're not in social networks that are morphing and

724
00:36:06,916 --> 00:36:09,236
Speaker 2: changing and you're getting to know people over time, and

725
00:36:09,596 --> 00:36:12,716
Speaker 2: you'll miss out on that whole process. And so I

726
00:36:12,836 --> 00:36:16,156
Speaker 2: worry that there are all these forces in society today

727
00:36:16,316 --> 00:36:20,516
Speaker 2: taking us in this terrible direction where the reality is

728
00:36:20,876 --> 00:36:23,436
Speaker 2: much more hopeful as long as you are out there

729
00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:26,796
Speaker 2: meeting people and not relying on your you know, your

730
00:36:26,796 --> 00:36:29,716
Speaker 2: photograph on an online dating site to carry you through

731
00:36:29,756 --> 00:36:30,756
Speaker 2: to a relationship.

732
00:36:30,996 --> 00:36:32,476
Speaker 4: So that one seems pretty harmful.

733
00:36:32,556 --> 00:36:35,676
Speaker 1: Now we get into bromcom rom dram relationship advice.

734
00:36:35,796 --> 00:36:36,596
Speaker 4: It's pretty bad.

735
00:36:37,036 --> 00:36:40,676
Speaker 1: And this one comes I think from five Hundred Days

736
00:36:40,716 --> 00:36:42,956
Speaker 1: of Summer. And so, Eli, do you want to do

737
00:36:43,036 --> 00:36:44,636
Speaker 1: my five hundred Days of Summer real quickly?

738
00:36:44,676 --> 00:36:44,956
Speaker 3: Okay?

739
00:36:44,996 --> 00:36:47,796
Speaker 5: So plot summary of five hundred Days of Summer. We

740
00:36:47,876 --> 00:36:52,996
Speaker 5: meet Tom played by Gordon Levitt, Thomas something something, Okay,

741
00:36:53,036 --> 00:36:53,516
Speaker 5: what's his name?

742
00:36:54,436 --> 00:36:58,076
Speaker 3: Levit dde again? Do it again? Start over?

743
00:36:58,516 --> 00:37:02,316
Speaker 5: We track Tom played by Joseph Gordon Levitt and his

744
00:37:02,476 --> 00:37:07,916
Speaker 5: relationship with Summer played by Zoey Deschanel. And the movie

745
00:37:07,956 --> 00:37:11,036
Speaker 5: plays with this idea that there are soulmates, right, And

746
00:37:11,196 --> 00:37:13,916
Speaker 5: at first he's convinced that there are soulmates, and she's

747
00:37:14,036 --> 00:37:16,036
Speaker 5: convinced that that's ridiculous, and she has a much more

748
00:37:16,076 --> 00:37:18,676
Speaker 5: cynical view. By the end of the movie, I think

749
00:37:18,716 --> 00:37:21,916
Speaker 5: you've more or less decided that there are soulmates. She's

750
00:37:21,956 --> 00:37:24,036
Speaker 5: come to the view that there are soulmates. He's wavered

751
00:37:24,036 --> 00:37:25,996
Speaker 5: a bit, but then at the very end it's like, no,

752
00:37:26,556 --> 00:37:28,316
Speaker 5: the fates really did bring this to us.

753
00:37:28,356 --> 00:37:30,916
Speaker 3: Now it's above the pay grade of a.

754
00:37:31,236 --> 00:37:33,956
Speaker 5: Scientist, of any sort of relationship scientist or otherwise to

755
00:37:34,236 --> 00:37:37,476
Speaker 5: say is the universe determined by fate? So let's set

756
00:37:37,516 --> 00:37:40,676
Speaker 5: acide that issue to ask a more empirically tractable question,

757
00:37:40,716 --> 00:37:44,556
Speaker 5: which is, what are the consequences of believing that people

758
00:37:44,636 --> 00:37:47,236
Speaker 5: are either meant to be or not meant to be?

759
00:37:47,676 --> 00:37:49,916
Speaker 5: And here, you know this will sound familiar to you, Laurie,

760
00:37:49,916 --> 00:37:52,756
Speaker 5: because you'ren't familiar with Carol Dweck's work on incremental and

761
00:37:52,836 --> 00:37:55,156
Speaker 5: entity beliefs and all those things. But there's a lot

762
00:37:55,156 --> 00:37:57,356
Speaker 5: of work in the relationship space, some of it from

763
00:37:57,396 --> 00:38:00,156
Speaker 5: my lab, that looks at this question of what is

764
00:38:00,196 --> 00:38:04,036
Speaker 5: it like to believe that there are soulmates? And the

765
00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:08,196
Speaker 5: answer is, if the relationship is going well, then believing

766
00:38:08,356 --> 00:38:10,276
Speaker 5: that you know, we are meant to be in some

767
00:38:10,316 --> 00:38:14,476
Speaker 5: cosmic sense is just fine. The problem really is if

768
00:38:14,476 --> 00:38:16,716
Speaker 5: the relationship is going through a difficult time, which is

769
00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:19,996
Speaker 5: basically the over under on that is, one hundred percent

770
00:38:20,156 --> 00:38:24,236
Speaker 5: of relationships will eventually go through hard times. Once that happens,

771
00:38:24,596 --> 00:38:27,596
Speaker 5: what is the story we tell ourselves about why we're

772
00:38:27,596 --> 00:38:30,796
Speaker 5: going through hard times. If you don't really believe the

773
00:38:30,796 --> 00:38:33,636
Speaker 5: soulmate story, then you talk about, well, we're going to

774
00:38:33,676 --> 00:38:35,436
Speaker 5: try to work through this and figure it out. But

775
00:38:35,476 --> 00:38:38,396
Speaker 5: if you do believe in the soulmate story, what you

776
00:38:38,516 --> 00:38:40,956
Speaker 5: might be seeing is evidence that we weren't meant for

777
00:38:40,996 --> 00:38:44,916
Speaker 5: each other anyway, And the conflict isn't really like, yeah,

778
00:38:44,956 --> 00:38:46,956
Speaker 5: but we're going to learn and grow from working through

779
00:38:46,996 --> 00:38:50,476
Speaker 5: this together. It's evidence that, wow, maybe we're not meant

780
00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:53,276
Speaker 5: to be and therefore we are less forgiving, at greater

781
00:38:53,356 --> 00:38:55,796
Speaker 5: risk for breakup and so forth. So it is risky

782
00:38:55,916 --> 00:38:59,036
Speaker 5: to hold the sorts of beliefs that movies like Five

783
00:38:59,116 --> 00:39:03,036
Speaker 5: Hundred Days of Summer inject into the cultural bloodstream, which

784
00:39:03,076 --> 00:39:04,996
Speaker 5: is that really what you want to do is find

785
00:39:04,996 --> 00:39:05,516
Speaker 5: your soulmate.

786
00:39:05,636 --> 00:39:08,156
Speaker 1: I think it's also problematic just because it causes you

787
00:39:08,236 --> 00:39:11,596
Speaker 1: to do something real bad when relationship troubles come up, right, which,

788
00:39:11,596 --> 00:39:14,116
Speaker 1: as you say, oh, this is just a sign that

789
00:39:14,156 --> 00:39:16,396
Speaker 1: everything's wrong. This is the kind of thing we see

790
00:39:16,756 --> 00:39:19,596
Speaker 1: in the Happiness work a lot. Right, Someone experiences like

791
00:39:19,636 --> 00:39:22,836
Speaker 1: a mild negative emotion and it's like oh, everything's wrong, right,

792
00:39:22,876 --> 00:39:25,556
Speaker 1: It's supposed to be good vibes only. But I think

793
00:39:25,716 --> 00:39:28,276
Speaker 1: when we kind of mistakenly assume that their relationships are

794
00:39:28,276 --> 00:39:30,636
Speaker 1: good vibes only, then we just don't do the stuff

795
00:39:30,636 --> 00:39:32,476
Speaker 1: that we need to do to fix relationships.

796
00:39:32,676 --> 00:39:35,756
Speaker 2: The fixing part is really important because I think many

797
00:39:35,916 --> 00:39:42,396
Speaker 2: times these caustic beliefs are somehow linked to and there's

798
00:39:42,476 --> 00:39:45,236
Speaker 2: nothing I can do about it. So another kind of

799
00:39:45,356 --> 00:39:47,996
Speaker 2: belief that comes up from time to time is this

800
00:39:48,116 --> 00:39:52,876
Speaker 2: idea that men and women are fundamentally different. And look,

801
00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:54,996
Speaker 2: you know, we see this in Before Sunrise. This is

802
00:39:55,036 --> 00:39:58,196
Speaker 2: one of the fun things that they debate throughout that movie,

803
00:39:58,236 --> 00:40:04,396
Speaker 2: and they're really interesting conversations. And the belief that men

804
00:40:04,436 --> 00:40:08,116
Speaker 2: and women are very different are, at least in heterosexual

805
00:40:08,356 --> 00:40:13,836
Speaker 2: mixed couples, those beliefs are linked to relationship difficulties. And

806
00:40:13,956 --> 00:40:17,436
Speaker 2: part of the reason why is because eventually couples do

807
00:40:17,676 --> 00:40:21,676
Speaker 2: encounter conflict, they do encounter differences of opinion, and if

808
00:40:21,716 --> 00:40:24,996
Speaker 2: you are someone who believes that that is linked to

809
00:40:25,076 --> 00:40:30,116
Speaker 2: something deep and essential about your gender, that often comes

810
00:40:30,156 --> 00:40:33,676
Speaker 2: with the unfounded assumption that there's nothing we can do

811
00:40:33,756 --> 00:40:38,636
Speaker 2: about it. So these ideas that like gender is essentialized

812
00:40:39,036 --> 00:40:42,156
Speaker 2: that our behaviors are determined by gender. Right, there's no

813
00:40:42,196 --> 00:40:44,556
Speaker 2: way to intervene and stop those things that could be

814
00:40:44,676 --> 00:40:46,636
Speaker 2: sort of fun to chat about as you're getting to

815
00:40:46,676 --> 00:40:49,156
Speaker 2: know people. But if you really carry those beliefs with

816
00:40:49,276 --> 00:40:52,276
Speaker 2: you into a mixed gender relationship, that's another place where

817
00:40:52,316 --> 00:40:53,756
Speaker 2: people are going to be headed for trouble.

818
00:40:53,996 --> 00:40:56,316
Speaker 1: So, finally, since we are running out of time, which

819
00:40:56,316 --> 00:40:58,156
Speaker 1: I knew what had happened, because you all are both

820
00:40:58,196 --> 00:41:00,236
Speaker 1: so fun and so awesome, and this is why I

821
00:41:00,276 --> 00:41:03,716
Speaker 1: love listening to love. Factually, the last movie that gives

822
00:41:03,796 --> 00:41:06,676
Speaker 1: us some bad ideas about relationship is a very recent one.

823
00:41:06,836 --> 00:41:09,996
Speaker 1: This is the movie Challengers. Paul, do you want to

824
00:41:09,996 --> 00:41:11,796
Speaker 1: do it? Thirty seconds on Challengers?

825
00:41:11,916 --> 00:41:13,276
Speaker 3: So in this movie is and Dea.

826
00:41:14,076 --> 00:41:17,596
Speaker 2: Her character Tashi is interested in these two guys, Patrick

827
00:41:17,756 --> 00:41:22,156
Speaker 2: and Art. And Patrick and Art have these very different

828
00:41:22,556 --> 00:41:25,476
Speaker 2: depictions in the movie, but one thing it sets up

829
00:41:25,676 --> 00:41:29,436
Speaker 2: very clearly is the distinction between the good dad in

830
00:41:29,476 --> 00:41:33,956
Speaker 2: the character Art versus the cad right, the like hot

831
00:41:34,036 --> 00:41:35,876
Speaker 2: but a little bit skeezy.

832
00:41:35,556 --> 00:41:37,596
Speaker 3: Guy in this case played by Patrick.

833
00:41:38,236 --> 00:41:42,796
Speaker 2: And This is a dichotomy that we commonly think is

834
00:41:42,836 --> 00:41:45,916
Speaker 2: out there and explains differences between people that there are

835
00:41:45,956 --> 00:41:48,596
Speaker 2: the people you sleep with and the people that you marry,

836
00:41:48,636 --> 00:41:52,396
Speaker 2: And this again applies across gender as well.

837
00:41:52,476 --> 00:41:55,396
Speaker 3: Right, So we have this stereotype.

838
00:41:55,316 --> 00:42:00,956
Speaker 2: And this is a very misleading idea about people's interests

839
00:42:01,116 --> 00:42:03,396
Speaker 2: and the abilities when it comes to short term and

840
00:42:03,436 --> 00:42:06,996
Speaker 2: long term relationships, because the reality is that people's interest

841
00:42:07,196 --> 00:42:10,076
Speaker 2: in having short term and long term relationship chips tends

842
00:42:10,116 --> 00:42:12,956
Speaker 2: to be pretty weakly correlated. You can be into both,

843
00:42:13,036 --> 00:42:18,276
Speaker 2: you can be into neither. But more importantly, somebody's attractiveness

844
00:42:18,356 --> 00:42:22,836
Speaker 2: or appeal as a short term partner truly has nothing

845
00:42:22,876 --> 00:42:25,876
Speaker 2: to do with their appeal as a long term partner.

846
00:42:26,076 --> 00:42:28,916
Speaker 2: So just because somebody has had a lot of fun

847
00:42:28,956 --> 00:42:32,756
Speaker 2: hookups in the past as zero implications for whether or

848
00:42:32,796 --> 00:42:34,836
Speaker 2: not that person could be a good partner with you.

849
00:42:35,316 --> 00:42:38,836
Speaker 2: And when people carry those assumptions around, boy do they

850
00:42:38,876 --> 00:42:42,276
Speaker 2: make some nasty, unfortunate inferences.

851
00:42:41,796 --> 00:42:42,596
Speaker 3: About other people.

852
00:42:42,716 --> 00:42:45,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, it just becomes a sort of interesting self fulfilling prophecy.

853
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:47,596
Speaker 1: It seems like if you're sort of carrying these beliefs

854
00:42:47,756 --> 00:42:49,996
Speaker 1: and also might make you kind of feel nasty about

855
00:42:50,036 --> 00:42:51,836
Speaker 1: your own history, depending on what it's like.

856
00:42:51,876 --> 00:42:55,196
Speaker 3: Too, Right, right, why are you looking.

857
00:42:54,956 --> 00:42:59,716
Speaker 1: At me now, So justice we're winding down. I mean,

858
00:42:59,956 --> 00:43:02,156
Speaker 1: what seems tricky is that we both can't get these

859
00:43:02,236 --> 00:43:05,876
Speaker 1: really good, scientifically based insights from rom coms and also

860
00:43:05,996 --> 00:43:09,276
Speaker 1: some really terrible strategies too. What should we take away,

861
00:43:09,396 --> 00:43:11,276
Speaker 1: like what's the sort of health warning that should go

862
00:43:11,356 --> 00:43:12,356
Speaker 1: with romcom z Ela?

863
00:43:12,596 --> 00:43:13,316
Speaker 3: Mostly, I just.

864
00:43:13,276 --> 00:43:16,796
Speaker 5: Want people to enjoy the films, Like there's a cost

865
00:43:17,076 --> 00:43:19,156
Speaker 5: to you know, being in your head all the time

866
00:43:19,276 --> 00:43:22,916
Speaker 5: that said films send messages whether we know it or not,

867
00:43:23,356 --> 00:43:26,676
Speaker 5: and we internalize these messages to a significant degree. And

868
00:43:27,036 --> 00:43:30,196
Speaker 5: so I am delighted that we started the podcast. I

869
00:43:30,196 --> 00:43:32,116
Speaker 5: think some idea that there might be like a fact

870
00:43:32,236 --> 00:43:34,156
Speaker 5: check for this stuff that we can look up somewhere.

871
00:43:34,236 --> 00:43:37,116
Speaker 5: I don't think that exists anywhere. So I would advise

872
00:43:37,116 --> 00:43:39,876
Speaker 5: people enjoy the movies and then if you want to

873
00:43:40,676 --> 00:43:41,596
Speaker 5: check out Love Factually.

874
00:43:41,796 --> 00:43:46,276
Speaker 1: Yeah, seriously, you really should check out Love Factually. It's

875
00:43:46,276 --> 00:43:48,356
Speaker 1: a great show and you can find it wherever you

876
00:43:48,356 --> 00:43:50,916
Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Plus, I was a guest on a

877
00:43:50,956 --> 00:43:53,316
Speaker 1: recent episode which I'm going to drop in this feed

878
00:43:53,396 --> 00:43:55,676
Speaker 1: on Valentine's Day as a special treat for you.

879
00:43:56,236 --> 00:43:58,076
Speaker 4: But before we wrap up, let's go.

880
00:43:57,996 --> 00:44:01,156
Speaker 1: Over Eli and Paul's rom com themed advice One More Time.

881
00:44:01,716 --> 00:44:02,236
Speaker 4: Tip one.

882
00:44:02,516 --> 00:44:05,996
Speaker 1: Learn from films like Before Sunset and build intimacy through

883
00:44:06,036 --> 00:44:08,956
Speaker 1: self disclosure. You'll be surprised how much people will like

884
00:44:08,996 --> 00:44:12,476
Speaker 1: you if you share something vulnerable. Tip two is from

885
00:44:12,596 --> 00:44:16,396
Speaker 1: When Harry met Sally. Friends can become lovers, so don't

886
00:44:16,396 --> 00:44:19,836
Speaker 1: overlook people you already know. The third tip comes from

887
00:44:19,836 --> 00:44:23,636
Speaker 1: Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind. Relationships are unique. What

888
00:44:23,756 --> 00:44:26,356
Speaker 1: worked in one partnership might not work in another, so

889
00:44:26,436 --> 00:44:29,836
Speaker 1: don't be tempted to think there's a single formula. Tip

890
00:44:29,876 --> 00:44:33,036
Speaker 1: four is a cautionary tale from Clueless. Don't believe that

891
00:44:33,156 --> 00:44:36,036
Speaker 1: high school myth that the sevens can never date the tens.

892
00:44:36,356 --> 00:44:39,756
Speaker 1: Potential partners don't exist on some objective scale. Even the

893
00:44:39,796 --> 00:44:43,076
Speaker 1: most conventionally beautiful person is a three to someone, and

894
00:44:43,076 --> 00:44:45,556
Speaker 1: we're all a nine or ten to somebody else out there.

895
00:44:46,436 --> 00:44:50,036
Speaker 1: Five hundred Days of Summer provides tip number five. Soulmates

896
00:44:50,236 --> 00:44:52,956
Speaker 1: just don't exist. If you believe there's only one person

897
00:44:52,996 --> 00:44:55,036
Speaker 1: for you, you might give up too quickly when your

898
00:44:55,076 --> 00:44:56,716
Speaker 1: relationship inevitably.

899
00:44:56,316 --> 00:44:57,196
Speaker 4: Hits a rough patch.

900
00:44:57,796 --> 00:45:00,916
Speaker 1: And our final piece of advice comes from Challengers. What

901
00:45:01,036 --> 00:45:04,156
Speaker 1: attracts you to a short term partner, things like looks fun,

902
00:45:04,236 --> 00:45:06,556
Speaker 1: a thrill of danger that has little to do with

903
00:45:06,636 --> 00:45:10,916
Speaker 1: the attributes that make for long term relationship happiness. If

904
00:45:10,956 --> 00:45:13,916
Speaker 1: you enjoyed my conversation with Paul and Eli, stay tuned,

905
00:45:14,076 --> 00:45:16,116
Speaker 1: as we'll be bringing you a whole episode of Love

906
00:45:16,156 --> 00:45:19,996
Speaker 1: factually in this feed on February fourteenth. After that, our

907
00:45:19,996 --> 00:45:22,636
Speaker 1: how To season will turn away from dating advice and

908
00:45:22,716 --> 00:45:25,516
Speaker 1: back to the bigger questions, starting with the puzzle of

909
00:45:25,556 --> 00:45:28,276
Speaker 1: how to lead the richest life possible. All that next

910
00:45:28,276 --> 00:45:36,276
Speaker 1: time on the Happiness Lab with me Doctor Laurie Santos,