1 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech Stuff. This is the story. Each week 2 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: on Wednesdays, we bring you an in depth interview with 3 00:00:19,160 --> 00:00:21,200 Speaker 1: someone who has a front row seat to the most 4 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: fascinating things happening in and around tech, and today we're 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: joined by Nicholas Nyakos. Nakos is a journalist who writes 6 00:00:32,000 --> 00:00:34,760 Speaker 1: the publications like The New Yorker, The Nation, and The 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:38,279 Speaker 1: New York Times, covering everything from the war in Ukraine 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: to most recently, the clean energy transition. But as new 9 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 1: Orkos tells us, there are many outstanding questions about just 10 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,959 Speaker 1: how clean the battery powered world really is. 11 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:53,880 Speaker 2: You know, in the same way that automobiles in the 12 00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 2: nineteen twenties, with these wonderful, shiny, beautiful things, people weren't 13 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 2: really asking where does the crude oil come from? Where 14 00:01:02,160 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 2: are the resources that we need to go into these 15 00:01:04,080 --> 00:01:05,080 Speaker 2: cars come from. 16 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,240 Speaker 1: Neokos is working on a book called The Elements of 17 00:01:08,319 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: Power about the natural resources required to power our electric future, 18 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: specifically the hidden costs of extracting minerals like cobalt, which 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: remains a critical element in the technology we use to 20 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:21,600 Speaker 1: run our lives. 21 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:25,280 Speaker 2: Mining is incredibly destructive. You tear up the ground and 22 00:01:25,520 --> 00:01:28,400 Speaker 2: you pollute the rivers, and you try and smoke into 23 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: the sky and so on, and then these people that 24 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 2: are left with nothing but holes in the ground. 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: Essentially, time and again, Neocos discovered that the country's riches 26 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: in these resources rarely reap the benefits of their abundance, 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: and the battle for geopolitical advantage is a constant theme 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:46,480 Speaker 1: in his reporting. 29 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: Oftentimes the people who are profiting are not the local communities. 30 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,919 Speaker 2: And I thought it was necessary for the wild to 31 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 2: think a little bit more more deeply about that, and 32 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,480 Speaker 2: a little bit more more about how, for example, certain 33 00:02:02,520 --> 00:02:06,120 Speaker 2: actors like the Chinese and these big Chinese companies which 34 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 2: we really know very little about, have such a choke 35 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 2: hold on this supply chain. 36 00:02:11,960 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: And so a few years ago Nioko set off to 37 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: do just that, show the world the impact of our 38 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: growing reliance on battery metals, which led him to the 39 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: southern capital of the Democratic Republic of Congo, Lubumbashi. 40 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: So Lummbashi Katanga province a sort of ground zero for 41 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:36,480 Speaker 2: this new energy sector. About seventy percent of the world's 42 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,359 Speaker 2: cobalt or comes from the southern Democratic Republic of Congo, 43 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,240 Speaker 2: and cobolt is important because it's used in the cathode 44 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 2: of lithium ion batteries. Lithium ion batteries are the batteries 45 00:02:46,320 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: that power our devices. Our cell phones are TESLA cars, 46 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 2: and cobalt is essentially one of the ingredients that is 47 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: necessary to create this kind of energy density that is 48 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 2: required for especially small devices. Yeah, so many things like 49 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 2: cell phones would be much bulkier and probably have many 50 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,800 Speaker 2: fewer capabilities because just to get that kind of energy density, 51 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,160 Speaker 2: there's no technology that really allows that at the moment 52 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: that's not lithium own batteries. There are some technologies that 53 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: are being developed now that you know, in ten years 54 00:03:22,400 --> 00:03:24,679 Speaker 2: time will hopefully be wonderful clean batteries, but at the 55 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,000 Speaker 2: moment we don't know anything else that will do the 56 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 2: job of a lithium own battery as well as a 57 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 2: lithium ian battery. 58 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:34,280 Speaker 1: So talk about the Chinese presence as you saw it 59 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: in Congo. 60 00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:38,839 Speaker 2: So there are two types of mining in Congo. There's 61 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: artismal mining and industrial mining, and artismal mining is one 62 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 2: in which there are most abuses. I'm not saying that 63 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,760 Speaker 2: abuses from industrial mining don't exist, but the artismal mining 64 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 2: is where there are a lot of children working, where 65 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: there are people working without safety equipment, where there are 66 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 2: pregnant women washing minerals, and where people are really working 67 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: in the worst condition. The Chinese have a big presence 68 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 2: in both sectors basically, and some companies even straddle the 69 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:11,680 Speaker 2: artisanal and industrial sectors. There's Huaiyu, which was started by 70 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: a guy called Chen Huehua, and he's basically built this 71 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 2: company by actually going out to Congo and buying some 72 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,799 Speaker 2: minerals that have been mined in some of the worst conditions, 73 00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:27,599 Speaker 2: basically and built this huge company which is now a 74 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 2: supplier to Apple and a supplier to many of the 75 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:31,799 Speaker 2: tech companies around the world. 76 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: And I mean, are there China towns in Congo's the 77 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: what's the relationship between Chinese people working in Congo and Congolese. 78 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: So the Congolese scholar Jamatnngoi Chimbambe says that there are 79 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,280 Speaker 2: no formal China towns in Congo. And he's right when 80 00:04:50,279 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 2: you say that. It's mainly these kind of campuses of 81 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: people who are working and they seem to be following 82 00:04:56,920 --> 00:05:01,359 Speaker 2: the playbook of former colonial powers. It's quite interesting. Just 83 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 2: if you look at like the house construction model for 84 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 2: Chinese workers in Congo. You know, beforehand they were living 85 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: in dormitories, they were living kind of in these pretty 86 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 2: squalid conditions. And if you look at Belgian colonialists, I 87 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: guess they were living in tents and they were also 88 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: living in pretty bad conditions. And then they start to 89 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 2: build their houses. The Chinese have also started to build 90 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 2: their houses, and now they're building what they call garden 91 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: style houses, these kind of bungalows, which in many ways 92 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 2: recall the kind of like the architecture of Belgian colonialism, 93 00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: which also had these like garden bungalows that you see 94 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 2: all over the place in Congo, which is very surreal 95 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,160 Speaker 2: because you're going through, you know, the bush and suddenly 96 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,040 Speaker 2: you see you come across something that wouldn't look out 97 00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:43,720 Speaker 2: of place just outside Brussels. 98 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: So is China in your view of colonial power in DLC. 99 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 2: I think colonial power means a very different thing to 100 00:05:52,560 --> 00:05:55,960 Speaker 2: what it did one hundred years ago, but I do 101 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 2: think that there are similarities. 102 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: But how much of the cobalt supply coming from DC 103 00:06:01,279 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: is controlled by China or Chinese businesses? 104 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: So they are by last count, eighteen large industrial mines 105 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 2: in DRC, and all of them but two are controlled 106 00:06:11,080 --> 00:06:14,600 Speaker 2: by Chinese link companies. So it's a huge amount of 107 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 2: a huge amount of congress cobald We'll never really know 108 00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 2: one hundred percent full figures because there's a lot of 109 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 2: legal cobalt that comes out of the country, but a 110 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 2: lot of that that is controlled by the Chinese as. 111 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: Well, and it's not just a supply of cobalds. You 112 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,680 Speaker 1: chart the evolution of BYD basically from an outsourced battery 113 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:39,599 Speaker 1: manufacture for the Japanese consumer electronics industry to the driving 114 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,840 Speaker 1: innovator in battery technology and EVS today in a very 115 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: short period. 116 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:47,280 Speaker 2: Yes, BYD and CAATL these are the two kind of 117 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 2: big companies that dominate the Chinese battery making sphere. BYD 118 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: is producing thirty percent of Apples iPads and they have 119 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 2: ten thousand researchers working on battery technology for Apple and 120 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand other employees. Now there aren't ten thousand 121 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:08,960 Speaker 2: battery researchers in Western Europe. I mean, it's it's completely 122 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,760 Speaker 2: crazy the amount of resources that they're putting into this industry. 123 00:07:13,000 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: And this is something that's been led from very much 124 00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 2: the top of the Chinese Communist Party and BYD is 125 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:22,120 Speaker 2: particularly interesting to me because I think that they have 126 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: been very very good about creating cars and focusing on 127 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: being an auto manufacturer, and it's not something that we 128 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: see here in the US. Well there are very few, 129 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: but you're starting to see it in Europe. I mean, 130 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 2: there's amazing video of Musk laughing at at Bads in 131 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 2: twenty eleven and just being like, come on, have you 132 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 2: seen their car? Like, come on, it's never going to 133 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,920 Speaker 2: be competitor to Tesla. This company has now taken over 134 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 2: from Tesla in terms of EV sales globally, and Musk 135 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 2: acknowledged this, and Muscle has acknowledged this. 136 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 1: Yes, but this is now not just harder work and 137 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: more work, but more intellectual capital. 138 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:05,400 Speaker 2: Absolutely, yes, I think that's the big differentiation now. And 139 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 2: it's also not copying anymore. The Chinese are driving forward 140 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,160 Speaker 2: battery technology and there's this idea that in the West, 141 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: and I actually think it's a slightly complacent way of 142 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:20,680 Speaker 2: looking at things that in the West the education system 143 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 2: is so much better, and you know, in Japan we've 144 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 2: got better scientists, and the Japanese think this as well, 145 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: by the way, but the Chinese have so many more 146 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 2: people working on this stuff, and maybe ninety percent of 147 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,920 Speaker 2: them are not like incredible research scientists, but then you 148 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:39,040 Speaker 2: have a ten percent of them who really really are 149 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: pushing the envelope. 150 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: I believe you spent some time trying to figure out 151 00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: if there were locals who were benefiting from cobalt mining 152 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,200 Speaker 1: in the country, and in looking into it, you ran 153 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:51,400 Speaker 1: in some trouble while hunting down at lead. 154 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,240 Speaker 2: The interview that I had lined up was I had 155 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,440 Speaker 2: been speaking to some civil society people who said that 156 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: there were connections between the cobalt minds and this sort 157 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 2: of former rebel who has once again kind of gone 158 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: on the run in opposition to the current government in Congo. 159 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 2: He's a guy called Jadeon, and so I thought that 160 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:16,400 Speaker 2: it was very interesting if at least some of the 161 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:20,320 Speaker 2: cobalt that was going into our devices was controlled by 162 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 2: this guy, who was, by all accounts a pretty brutal warlord. 163 00:09:24,520 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 2: I wasn't even meeting by Jadion. I was meeting with 164 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,880 Speaker 2: his representatives. So I'm sitting in the restaurant of the 165 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 2: Hotel Bagadougou, and we're sitting there and then suddenly it's 166 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:38,120 Speaker 2: sort of odd. There are these people wearing Chinese football 167 00:09:38,160 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 2: team shirts who come in and they're offering to sell 168 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,559 Speaker 2: these sort of plastic radios, and then all hell breaks loose. 169 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: This guy sort of grabs me by the shoulder and says, 170 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: come with me. I'm saying I need to speak to 171 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 2: my translator. He's got my passports. He drags me out 172 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: into the sunlight, essentially, and there are seven trucks of 173 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 2: soldiers pushing away a crowd of people who are screaming 174 00:10:05,000 --> 00:10:10,160 Speaker 2: and yelling, and somehow it's become some sort of mini 175 00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: protests that's happening outside, and that doesn't seem very normal 176 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 2: in America. But whenever there's a big police action, there's 177 00:10:17,320 --> 00:10:19,439 Speaker 2: a big crowd that gathers in that part of the world. 178 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: The next thing I know, I'm being put on a 179 00:10:21,880 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: plane and they've confiscated all of my devices. They've taken 180 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 2: my laptop, my phone and all that stuff. But they'd 181 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: also tried to take my pens. Luckily, I had one 182 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 2: buried in a bunch of crap that I had at 183 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 2: the bottom of my pocket. So I take this pen. 184 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:42,559 Speaker 2: I go to the bathroom and write two notes. I'd 185 00:10:42,600 --> 00:10:45,840 Speaker 2: seen a guy who might might have been I don't 186 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,760 Speaker 2: really want to identify him, because you know, he did 187 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:50,000 Speaker 2: a great service to me, and I don't want to 188 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 2: put him in danger. But there was a guy who, 189 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:57,200 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, looked like somebody who might be able 190 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:02,520 Speaker 2: to raise the issue through the appropriate channels. I actually 191 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,719 Speaker 2: shake this guy's hand and I pass it to him 192 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:09,000 Speaker 2: in that way. Two days later, I get somebody knocking 193 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:11,920 Speaker 2: on my cell and I've been held in solitary confinement 194 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 2: and they said the Americans know, which is obviously a 195 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: sort of great relief. Then the next day after that 196 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,360 Speaker 2: is a Sunday, and I'm just sort of kept in 197 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 2: my room all day and I start sort of going 198 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: a bit mad. And then the day after that, I 199 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 2: wake up quite early and I am finally bundled onto 200 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:33,560 Speaker 2: a plane to Paris. 201 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: So to this day, what's your best explanation, why do 202 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:38,440 Speaker 1: you think this happened? So? 203 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:45,239 Speaker 2: I think this happened because basically, powerful people who control 204 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 2: the very fundaments of the supply chain trying to stop people, journalists, 205 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,360 Speaker 2: people with questions actually finding out who's profiting of it. 206 00:11:57,480 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 2: Because there's this thing that happened to me over and 207 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:04,320 Speaker 2: again and reporting this book which is being stymied by 208 00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 2: people who are in power in order to protect their 209 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,239 Speaker 2: own interests. 210 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: After the break, we discussed how America is responding to 211 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:28,440 Speaker 1: China's dominance over the cobalt supply chain. Stay with us. 212 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: So you've testified before Congress here in the US. What 213 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: is the US response both to the supply chain issue 214 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 1: of China controlling sixteen out of eighteen of the major 215 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: cobalt mines in Congo and then secondly to this extraordinary 216 00:12:45,960 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: rush of battery innovation that's happening in China. 217 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:53,559 Speaker 2: In December twenty twenty four, President Biden went to Angola 218 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:57,120 Speaker 2: to promote something called the Lubito Corridor, which is a 219 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: railroad that is based on old railroad actually built by 220 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 2: British entrepreneur to bring out mineral's mind by the Belgians 221 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:10,960 Speaker 2: from Congo. And basically what the US government is hoping 222 00:13:11,000 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 2: to do is to rejuvenate this railroad and rejuvenate this 223 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 2: corridor as a form of minerals leaving through Angola to 224 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,240 Speaker 2: go to the west rather than to go to the east. 225 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 2: The problem is that the Chinese built that railroad. They 226 00:13:27,840 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: basically they rebuilt that railroad fifteen years ago and as 227 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 2: much as it's wonderful that DC is now able to 228 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 2: export its copper towards the US. The US doesn't have 229 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 2: any processing facilities for copper and cobalt. That might change, 230 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 2: but it's incredibly environmentally taxing to have these facilities, and 231 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 2: so that's one of the questions. Do people want cobalt 232 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: processing facilities in the US. That has to be asked 233 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: if we're going to have this idea of the Lobito Corridor. 234 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: I think, to be honest that the US has responded 235 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 2: to this Chinese dominance of the supply chain with mainly 236 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 2: hand ringing. I mean, it's definitely been on the agenda 237 00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 2: of certain people on Capitol Hill. There has been some 238 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,040 Speaker 2: really sort of vigorous debate about this, and when I testified, 239 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 2: there were a lot of people knew quite a bit 240 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 2: about this, but mainly it seems to be something that 241 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 2: has taken on a certain inevitability and has complained about 242 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: and not really addressed. And the question is can Congress 243 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 2: address it? You know, the US doesn't have state run 244 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 2: enterprises that can do the type of things that the 245 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 2: Chinese state round enterprises can do. They can't provide funding 246 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 2: in the same way that the Bank of China can 247 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: to a company like China Malibdin and that wants to 248 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,920 Speaker 2: go and take over the biggest cobalt mine in the 249 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 2: southern DRC. So I think it's it's it's also to 250 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:03,840 Speaker 2: do with the limitations of the system that we live 251 00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 2: in at the moment. So I don't think it's been 252 00:15:06,280 --> 00:15:11,280 Speaker 2: handled particularly well. But it's also hard to imagine a 253 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 2: way of handling this better on the political front. 254 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: There's an old expression, men in glass houses shouldn't for rocks. Obviously, 255 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 1: one of the big stories in tech has been a 256 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:26,800 Speaker 1: US led export controls on chips to China, powering the 257 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 1: most powerful AI systems. Is there a risk of a 258 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: Chinese response when it comes to cobalt or even batteries themselves. 259 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 2: Yes, there's a big risk of Chinese response, And actually 260 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: in December twenty twenty four there was a export ban 261 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 2: of rare earth metals from China to the US. And 262 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:53,480 Speaker 2: so this kind of tip for tat tariffs and bands 263 00:15:54,320 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: looks like it will escalate. The only question is that 264 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: if China were to say and we're not going to 265 00:16:01,120 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: export lithium ion batteries or finished battery precursor materials to 266 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: the US or entities affiliated with the US. There's also 267 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:15,520 Speaker 2: many many ways in which that can be got around 268 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 2: by US companies. How much battery money we talked about 269 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,360 Speaker 2: sixteen of eighteen minds. What percentage of global lithium I 270 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,960 Speaker 2: battery manufacturing or battery processing. It's something between seventy and 271 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 2: eighty percent is a large, large percentage. In China, I 272 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: think it goes up to ninety for some minerals. Career 273 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,440 Speaker 2: is also very big on this, and Japan has kind 274 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 2: of completely lost lost the ball. Indonesia does a bit 275 00:16:38,880 --> 00:16:39,240 Speaker 2: as well. 276 00:16:40,200 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: And what about the US are the opportunities to mine 277 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:44,160 Speaker 1: natural resources here? 278 00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 2: One of the projects that has seen more success has 279 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: been the renovation of a mine for zinc and lead 280 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,800 Speaker 2: in the Silver Valley in Idaho. The Silver Valley is 281 00:16:56,120 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 2: a part of Idaho that has traditionally seen huge amounts 282 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 2: of mining. It was one of the wealthiest places in 283 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,639 Speaker 2: the US back in the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, 284 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:08,920 Speaker 2: and just as these sort of prospectors came in on 285 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 2: the back of this gold rush and remained a very 286 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 2: wealthy part of the US until the mine started getting 287 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 2: shut down. And when you go to those communities you 288 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,439 Speaker 2: see that there is that there are voices for mining 289 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 2: and against mining, and many people feel conflicted about it. 290 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 2: Idaho also has the biggest cobalt belt in the US, 291 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 2: but for most of these critical metals, the US doesn't 292 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 2: have a huge reserve of these cobalt, especially, so we'll 293 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 2: still be relying on China for cobalt. 294 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: We talked a lot about Democratic Republic of Congo, but 295 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:43,320 Speaker 1: talk about some of the other places where you've seen 296 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: mining first hand. 297 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:50,199 Speaker 2: I have seen mining first hand for this book in Indonesia, 298 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 2: and part of the reason that people are mining in 299 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 2: Indonesia is because people are mining for nickel, which is 300 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: to create lower cobalt cathods, but also cathodes that have 301 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:09,040 Speaker 2: specific energy density qualities that are more desirable for electric 302 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 2: cars and a better safety profile than lithium cobal oxide, 303 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,119 Speaker 2: which is the oldest and kind of og lithium iron 304 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 2: battery technology. 305 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,400 Speaker 1: What did you see when you were in Indonesia, I mean, 306 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,640 Speaker 1: what's the same and what's different in terms of how 307 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,359 Speaker 1: the mining industry affects people. 308 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,240 Speaker 2: What was similar was that you saw a similar political 309 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: feeling of dispossession and you felt that people had been 310 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: pushed off their land. You had the same stories of 311 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:39,639 Speaker 2: people being moved away from their farms, and you also 312 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 2: had the same stories about water being polluted. What was 313 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 2: different was that the conditions, while tough, were definitely not 314 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: as brutal as some of the things in DRC that 315 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: I'd seen, and the government did seem to be more 316 00:18:57,160 --> 00:19:03,399 Speaker 2: involved in policing, and whatever corruption there might have been 317 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:07,040 Speaker 2: was not on a kind of you know, you didn't 318 00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 2: see a sort of low level and people trying to 319 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,760 Speaker 2: steal shipments and so on. It was much more to 320 00:19:11,840 --> 00:19:14,239 Speaker 2: do with you know, large contracts being handed out by 321 00:19:14,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: certain ministers and stuff like that. And that's actually what's 322 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:21,320 Speaker 2: interesting is that the history of Indonesia is a former 323 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:26,359 Speaker 2: Dutch colony. You have this kind of the similar historical 324 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 2: situation where you move to a like decolonial leader right 325 00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:38,080 Speaker 2: after decolonization who talks about sort of nationalizing everything, and 326 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 2: then that person gets overthrown by somebody who is much 327 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:46,639 Speaker 2: more venal and starts selling off the nation's resources. So 328 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 2: obviously no two places are exactly the same, but there's 329 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 2: there were some interesting similarities basically between Indonesia and DRC. 330 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 2: Although the conditions were much much better for the people 331 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 2: who were that although they at the same time they 332 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 2: weren't perfect. 333 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 1: After the break, we look at some of the other 334 00:20:09,640 --> 00:20:13,920 Speaker 1: natural resources being mined to fuel the energy revolution. Stay 335 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:28,520 Speaker 1: with us, Welcome back, Nick. You've covered conflict zones and 336 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: wars all over the world. How do natural resources figure 337 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:34,480 Speaker 1: into these conflicts? 338 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 2: So I traveled in two thousand and seventeen to report 339 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:43,639 Speaker 2: on the frozen conflict in the Western Sahara. And this 340 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 2: was before I was focused on battery metals, and I 341 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 2: was going down to interview some political activists in the 342 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: town of Laune, which is the capital of the Western Sahara, 343 00:20:58,520 --> 00:21:03,520 Speaker 2: which Morocco has occupied since nineteen seventy six and has 344 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:09,000 Speaker 2: taken over that country's phosphate resources. So I was interested 345 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 2: in how much phosphates played into why Morocco was hanging 346 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 2: on to Western Sahara, why they wanted Western Sahara. It's 347 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,560 Speaker 2: a much more complicated story to do with the way 348 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: that the king sees his authority and these kind of 349 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:30,680 Speaker 2: pre colonial agreements with various different tribes in the Sahara, 350 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 2: but phosphates does play into it. Ten percent of Morocco's 351 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 2: phosphate comes from the Western Sahara. And basically the control 352 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:43,640 Speaker 2: of Western Sahara has allowed Morocco to have a sort 353 00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 2: of stranglehold on the world phosphate industry. Phosphates are mainly 354 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 2: used as fertilizers, but now they're used in some of 355 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: these lithimyon phosphate batteries, which are a cobalt free battery 356 00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,760 Speaker 2: which has a much lower energy density than batteries that 357 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 2: have cobolt in them. 358 00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: Are not so good for small devices, not so good. 359 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 2: For small devices, not as powerful, not necessarily good for 360 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,160 Speaker 2: high performance electric vehicles, although that's debatable at this point 361 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 2: because there's been a lot of advances in electric vehicle 362 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 2: LFP batteries, and those batteries are seen as a way 363 00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 2: of moving away from cobalt, which is also quite expensive, 364 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 2: and they're much cheaper and they're much safer as well, 365 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,400 Speaker 2: but they come with this sort of trade off that 366 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,840 Speaker 2: phosphates are necessary for agriculture. And Isaac Asimov, the great 367 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:39,000 Speaker 2: science fiction writer, talked about this sort of moment where 368 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:43,880 Speaker 2: population growth meets phosphate shortage and how that's the sort 369 00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 2: of stabilizing point of human civilization. So if we're using 370 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,119 Speaker 2: phosphates to power our cars and our batteries. We're going 371 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: to hit that point much sooner. 372 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,240 Speaker 1: And not only that they mind in a conflict zone. 373 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,159 Speaker 2: Their mind in a conflict zone. Exactly so, the Western 374 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 2: Sahara since twenty twenty one has been re embroiled in 375 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 2: a conflict between Morocco and the Polysaria Front, which is 376 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 2: a separatist movement backed by Algeria, Morocco's neighbor. So I 377 00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 2: wanted to point out that nothing, nothing comes for free. Basically, 378 00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:18,399 Speaker 2: we might think that these LFP batteries as they're called, 379 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 2: are these wonderful, you know, new technology, but actually, in 380 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 2: the end of the day, those batteries also come with 381 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: their trade offs. 382 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 1: I'm curious what's the state of the research into alternatives 383 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: to cobald and lithiumine batteries. 384 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:38,639 Speaker 2: So alternatives cobalt, there's sodium ion batteries, and sodium is 385 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,800 Speaker 2: a very very abundant element. The only problem is that 386 00:23:41,840 --> 00:23:44,720 Speaker 2: they don't have the same energy density and probably will 387 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 2: never have the same energy density as lithium ion batteries 388 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:53,959 Speaker 2: because sodium ions are larger than lithium ions. Basically, so 389 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: the interesting thing about that is that you probably could 390 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:01,720 Speaker 2: have low range electric cars and maybe even medium range 391 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: electric cars powered by the current technology. The Chinese have 392 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: advanced on that front in leaps and bounds. There are, 393 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: by the last count that I read, twenty five companies 394 00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: in China sort of fully producing sodium man batteries. There 395 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,159 Speaker 2: is I think one in France and one sort of 396 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: Mark Cuban backed company in the US called Natrion. But 397 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 2: it all feels a bit more like a science experiment 398 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 2: in the West, whereas in China it's actually happening and 399 00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: it's actually there, and you can buy sodium mayan batteries, 400 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: you know, from Ali Baba very easily. Then there's a 401 00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:40,280 Speaker 2: little bit further out there sodium sulfur, which is actually 402 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,160 Speaker 2: a technology that was first pioneered by Ford in the 403 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 2: nineteen sixties as a potential electric vehicle technology. Sodium sulfur 404 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 2: actually could have a huge amount of energy density. The 405 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:55,040 Speaker 2: problem with the original sodium sulfur batteries was that they 406 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 2: had to have molten cathodes, which was not practical to 407 00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,680 Speaker 2: have in electric vehicles because you're have to have something 408 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: like a molten hot thing in your car battery and 409 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,120 Speaker 2: obviously that would be very dangerous. And then there are 410 00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: you know, various other different types of battery technology that 411 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 2: are being bandied around. People talk about silicon anodes and 412 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,440 Speaker 2: various different little tweaks that can be made to make 413 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:23,959 Speaker 2: the batteries more powerful and potentially less resource intensive. I 414 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:27,280 Speaker 2: think that that's probably the road that we're going down 415 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 2: more visibly at the moment. And then the final thing 416 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,760 Speaker 2: that I just wanted to mention is hydrogen and fuel 417 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 2: cell technologies. I think that those have been generally accepted 418 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,719 Speaker 2: for long distance things like trucking, and there are some 419 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:47,400 Speaker 2: taxi companies in Europe that are using hydrogen and fuel 420 00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: cell technology. Is the problem is that hydrogen is very, 421 00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 2: very energy intensive to convert. Usually you're converting a natural gas, 422 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 2: so it's not necessarily a particularly environmental door of energy 423 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,120 Speaker 2: at the moment because you're just putting in so much 424 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 2: energy to convert it into fuel. So for the moment, 425 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: battery technology based on cobalts, based on nickel, based on 426 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 2: phosphate seem to be the best options that we have. 427 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,480 Speaker 2: Although these things do develop fairly quickly. I mean when 428 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 2: I started this project in twenty eighteen, I mean people 429 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 2: were just starting to talk about lifting my am phosphate 430 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: batteries now they're in like fifty percent of electric cars. 431 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: What was the driving question in your mind as you 432 00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:38,480 Speaker 1: got on and off these planes all around the world, planes, boats, motorbikes. 433 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 1: I mean, what were you was driving you. 434 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 2: The motivating question? I mean, look, when I would get 435 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,199 Speaker 2: off at a place, I would often think, how is 436 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: it possible that the world's new energy revolution can be 437 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,400 Speaker 2: based in this place where there's no drain going under 438 00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,400 Speaker 2: the street, there's no electricity at night, there's no healths. 439 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 2: And we're talking about electric vehicles and flying cars and 440 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,760 Speaker 2: things like that. And at the same time, you have 441 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: these places which are entirely dejected and undeveloped and sometimes 442 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: in a way beautifully undeveloped as well. You know, in 443 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 2: the middle of Indonesia in the Milucu Islands, Like it's 444 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 2: this green landscape of these beautiful islands that have been 445 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,879 Speaker 2: sort of untouched. Now they're being ripped to pieces in 446 00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: order to develop these these minds. So the question is like, 447 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 2: how do you square that kind of destruction and that 448 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:39,399 Speaker 2: kind of deprivation with this ultra shiny, ultra modern world. 449 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:45,320 Speaker 1: You've seen incredible suffering reporting the supply chain. Yeah, I mean, 450 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: mass graves. 451 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 2: Even I have seen I have seen incredible suffering reporting 452 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,880 Speaker 2: this story, and yeah, we saw mass graves in Congo. 453 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: But what I realized is that it's you know, there 454 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 2: are ways to do cobalt mining cleanly and ways to 455 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 2: pay back to the countries that the minerals are mined from, 456 00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,719 Speaker 2: but we're not doing that because we can do it 457 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 2: more cheaply by cutting a lot of corners. And cutting 458 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 2: those corners has huge effects down the supply chain. So 459 00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 2: you know, if everybody paid a little bit more for 460 00:28:19,080 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 2: their iPhone, you could probably see much less suffering at 461 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,160 Speaker 2: the bottom of the supply chain and people better ammunerated. 462 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 2: Then again, it's very very complicated to understand, like how 463 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: that money would get back to people and so on. 464 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: One of the quotes that stay with me from your 465 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: book is a Japanese battery executive who said, to you, 466 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,160 Speaker 1: the issue is, in the end of the day, there's 467 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,600 Speaker 1: no good way to power industrial society. Yeah, do you agree. 468 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 2: I agree with it to some extent, But I mean, 469 00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 2: I think when you speak to scientists and technologists, there's 470 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: an incredible amount of hope because they feel like some 471 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 2: of the problems that we're still experiencing in the supply 472 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 2: chain have actually been solved. Like I had this wonderful 473 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,719 Speaker 2: conversation with a scientists who wanted to be off the record, 474 00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,560 Speaker 2: and this scientist was saying to me, well, we've solved 475 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 2: all these problems, We've sold all these problems, and we 476 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,400 Speaker 2: don't understand why it's there's still problems. But there's still 477 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 2: problems because to do things in the old ways is 478 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 2: still cheaper, and people are stuck in their ways of 479 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: doing things, and the investments have been made, and so 480 00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: I think that people need to be a bit more flexible, 481 00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 2: and I think that legislation as well needs to reflect 482 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 2: the fact that the technology is changing so quickly as well. 483 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:51,000 Speaker 1: That was Nicholas Niokos, author of the forthcoming book The 484 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: Elements of Power for Tech Stuff. I'm Osvoloshin. This episode 485 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: was produced by Eliza Dennis, Lizzie Jacobs, and Sina Ozaki. 486 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: It was exact to produce by Me, Karen Price and 487 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katria norvelleve iHeart Podcasts. We 488 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 1: recorded the conversation at Citybox. Jack Insley mixed this episode 489 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: and Kyle Murdoch in our theme song join us on 490 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: Friday for the weekend tech Karen and I will run 491 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,719 Speaker 1: through the tech headlines, including some you may have missed. 492 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 1: Please rate, review, and reach out to us at tech 493 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: Stuff Podcast at gmail dot com. We love hearing from you.