1
00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:07,760
Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Ethan Natalman, and this is Psychoactive, a production

2
00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:11,600
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. Psychoactive is the

3
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,040
Speaker 1: show where we talk about all things drugs. But any

4
00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 1: views expressed here do not represent those of I Heart Media,

5
00:00:18,920 --> 00:00:23,480
Speaker 1: Protozoa Pictures, or their executives and employees. Indeed, heed as

6
00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:26,400
Speaker 1: an inveterate contrarian, I can tell you they may not

7
00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:30,720
Speaker 1: even represent my own. And nothing contained in this show

8
00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:33,680
Speaker 1: should be used as medical advice or encouragement to use

9
00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:44,599
Speaker 1: any type of drug. Hello, Psychoactive listeners. You know, one

10
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,680
Speaker 1: of the things I love about doing this podcast is

11
00:00:47,760 --> 00:00:50,920
Speaker 1: that I really get to pick any guest I want,

12
00:00:51,080 --> 00:00:53,960
Speaker 1: who I think is really smart and has interesting things

13
00:00:54,000 --> 00:00:57,720
Speaker 1: to say. And you may have listened to the episode

14
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:01,200
Speaker 1: with Nora Volcale, the longtime headed National Student Drug Abuse

15
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,080
Speaker 1: or the ones with Dan Chieroni, the UCSF professor experient

16
00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:08,680
Speaker 1: overdose Randy wild Um. And this one is somebody who

17
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:11,839
Speaker 1: ranks at the level of brilliance of any of those

18
00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:16,080
Speaker 1: previous guests, but whose life has been quite a bit different.

19
00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:21,960
Speaker 1: His name is Leonard Picard, and Leonard Picard is known

20
00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:24,679
Speaker 1: if you'll look him up on Wikipedia or anywhere else

21
00:01:25,280 --> 00:01:30,679
Speaker 1: for being allegedly I should say, perhaps the world's greatest

22
00:01:30,800 --> 00:01:37,360
Speaker 1: producer of LSD in the twentieth century. And now Leonard

23
00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:39,399
Speaker 1: is not just that, of course. I mean, he's a

24
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:42,800
Speaker 1: brilliant chemist helps explain why he allegedly did what he did.

25
00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:44,759
Speaker 1: But he's also somebody who ended up with a master's

26
00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:47,400
Speaker 1: degree in the Kennedy School did really interesting drug research.

27
00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:51,080
Speaker 1: He's also somebody who was sentenced UM in the early

28
00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:56,720
Speaker 1: two thousands to two life sentences in a federal prison

29
00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: and spend something like two decades behind bars in a

30
00:02:01,200 --> 00:02:05,440
Speaker 1: maximum security prison, and then just got out at the

31
00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:09,560
Speaker 1: very beginning of this year, I think in good part

32
00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:14,120
Speaker 1: because of COVID and a sort of compassionate release, although

33
00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:16,959
Speaker 1: I think there was also a campaign UH to try

34
00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 1: to get him released early as well, and he remains

35
00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: under supervised release, which also will inhibit a bit what

36
00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,799
Speaker 1: he can say about his life and his activities. So

37
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:32,360
Speaker 1: I've asked Leonard in talking about this, I'm gonna be

38
00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,720
Speaker 1: blunt and asking him every question. He's going to do

39
00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,240
Speaker 1: his best to um answer as frankly as he can,

40
00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 1: but where he'd feel that there might be some risks,

41
00:02:40,160 --> 00:02:43,399
Speaker 1: he might answer a little more in the abstract um,

42
00:02:43,520 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 1: and so you the audience should take his comments as

43
00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:53,919
Speaker 1: maybe or maybe not reflecting his actual real life world experience. Now, Leonard, hello,

44
00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:57,040
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me on Psychoactive. Well,

45
00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:00,600
Speaker 1: hello Ethan. Lovely to see you again. A year ago

46
00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:04,720
Speaker 1: we couldn't have this conversation, so it's um particularly meaningful

47
00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,200
Speaker 1: to be able to speak with you after so many years.

48
00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:09,720
Speaker 1: I know I've been wondering about my ability to try

49
00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,240
Speaker 1: to get other people who actually are currently behind bars

50
00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:14,720
Speaker 1: to be on a podcast, but I'm imagining most prison

51
00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:18,840
Speaker 1: systems in America. Maybe other countries went to allow that. Now,

52
00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:21,840
Speaker 1: you know, you and I we first crossed paths very

53
00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:24,519
Speaker 1: briefly in the mid nineties. I think it was it's

54
00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,360
Speaker 1: some psychedelics conference in the Bay Area, and then had

55
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,840
Speaker 1: no contact thereafter for you know, really since you got out.

56
00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:36,040
Speaker 1: And then one of my fellow producers said, hey, how

57
00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:38,960
Speaker 1: about this fellow letter Picard, and so you and I

58
00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 1: have now had a chance to spend some time together,

59
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:44,760
Speaker 1: both in New York and in Boulder, Colorado. You've introduced

60
00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,800
Speaker 1: me to some of your friends and contacts in the

61
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,560
Speaker 1: psychedelics investment space. But I wanted to start off really

62
00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,760
Speaker 1: by um just asking this. When we talk about your

63
00:03:55,800 --> 00:04:00,680
Speaker 1: reputation as being the biggest or one of the guest

64
00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:06,400
Speaker 1: uh produces of LSD in global history, can you say, well, yep,

65
00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,680
Speaker 1: that's true, or are you in a position where it's

66
00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 1: really hard to you know, own that at this point,

67
00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:15,800
Speaker 1: or whether maybe it's actually it's actually not true? My goodness. Uh,

68
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:18,599
Speaker 1: First of all, I should preface this for your audience

69
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,200
Speaker 1: and the Ethan. I had a quite a rollicking conversation

70
00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:25,560
Speaker 1: until midnight some weeks ago in Boulder, Colorado, and which

71
00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:28,039
Speaker 1: we went over quite a few things that perhaps can't

72
00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:31,200
Speaker 1: be talked about on this podcast. Um, but I do

73
00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:35,000
Speaker 1: remain under federal supervision, and h I must maintain my

74
00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: position under oath at federal trial that the allegations are

75
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,720
Speaker 1: our millarague government conjecture. Okay, fair enough, Leonard. So let

76
00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:47,360
Speaker 1: me just go back to your early days. I mean,

77
00:04:47,960 --> 00:04:52,680
Speaker 1: as people who are allegedly involved in lucy drug production

78
00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,080
Speaker 1: and distribution are at all, yours is a really kind

79
00:04:55,120 --> 00:04:58,920
Speaker 1: of specialized area in that you were a chemist by

80
00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:03,000
Speaker 1: many accounts of in chemist and became uh you know,

81
00:05:03,080 --> 00:05:06,919
Speaker 1: involved in this. Uh you know in making LSD a drug,

82
00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:11,120
Speaker 1: which is it's not cocaine, it's not heroin or meth amphetamine.

83
00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,880
Speaker 1: I mean it sort of is in a different category

84
00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,280
Speaker 1: in a way. And I just wanted to ask you

85
00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,040
Speaker 1: if you go back to your early years. I mean,

86
00:05:19,200 --> 00:05:21,960
Speaker 1: you grew up in a family I'm not sure which

87
00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,359
Speaker 1: city it was, but with a father who was a

88
00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,720
Speaker 1: lawyer and a mother working for the U S Center

89
00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,760
Speaker 1: Disease Control. You've got a scholarship to Princeton, but at

90
00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,720
Speaker 1: some point in your late teens early twenties, you must

91
00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:39,760
Speaker 1: have got an interest both in chemistry and in psychedelic substances. Well, yes,

92
00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:42,680
Speaker 1: I can speak to that a little Ethan. Uh My

93
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:47,360
Speaker 1: interest goes back to perhaps nine three, when the only

94
00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 1: marijuana available was that from jazz bends in New York City.

95
00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,360
Speaker 1: The young people didn't have access. Then things slowly changed

96
00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:59,560
Speaker 1: and one began to see in cannabis more widely available.

97
00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,240
Speaker 1: At that point, Uh, I left Princeton in order to

98
00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:07,040
Speaker 1: join what then was a youth revolution spanning the globe.

99
00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: You recall the song if You're going to San Francisco,

100
00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,960
Speaker 1: were flowers in your hair? And so I was part

101
00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:18,479
Speaker 1: of that entire youth movement moving west, but also in

102
00:06:18,480 --> 00:06:22,760
Speaker 1: New York City, London, Rome, throughout the world, youth were

103
00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:30,800
Speaker 1: experiencing an unusual, very specialized, very potent neurochemical and having

104
00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:35,760
Speaker 1: subjective experiences that were profound and unanticipated, often very spiritual

105
00:06:35,800 --> 00:06:38,760
Speaker 1: or religious. So I was part of that early movement. Yes,

106
00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,560
Speaker 1: in nineteen sixty three, you're eighteen. Then Timothy Leary is

107
00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:46,840
Speaker 1: kind of emerging on the scene. There's already been quite

108
00:06:46,839 --> 00:06:50,479
Speaker 1: substantial LSD research. And it's not just LSD, right, there's

109
00:06:50,480 --> 00:06:53,839
Speaker 1: also mescal in out there in mushrooms and things like that.

110
00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:58,599
Speaker 1: But does LSD play a special role when you're talking

111
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:00,960
Speaker 1: about this set of keem nicles from right to the

112
00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:04,440
Speaker 1: beginning or early on, was mescaline is of great interest

113
00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 1: to you as LSD? Oh? Not not at all. Of course,

114
00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,320
Speaker 1: Mescaline reared its head among the artists of Paris in

115
00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: the twenties and thirties an Twinine are Toad, for example,

116
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:18,480
Speaker 1: all through Huxley's days, but I, of course had no

117
00:07:18,560 --> 00:07:23,240
Speaker 1: access to a pure Mescaline is exceptionally rare, and of

118
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:27,440
Speaker 1: course the dosage is several hundred milligrams, so that the

119
00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:33,480
Speaker 1: first large scale deployment of a specialized psychoactive such as

120
00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:37,600
Speaker 1: LSD had to be simply that compound, which is potent

121
00:07:37,680 --> 00:07:41,840
Speaker 1: at a hundred micrograms um ten million doses a kilogram.

122
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 1: So it took this incredibly potent substance to be manufactured

123
00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,520
Speaker 1: by small cadres of underground chemists to deploy ten million

124
00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:55,880
Speaker 1: doses throughout initially northern California and across the United States,

125
00:07:56,280 --> 00:07:59,360
Speaker 1: and thus began the revolution of the sixties sixty six

126
00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:02,480
Speaker 1: sixties seven, and the advent of the Beatles, the shift

127
00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 1: in music. No one had ever heard songs such as

128
00:08:06,800 --> 00:08:12,600
Speaker 1: I Am the Walrus was all Detroit bebop, So music changed,

129
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:18,640
Speaker 1: aren't changed. Spontaneous social gatherings occurred, thousands of people coming

130
00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:24,480
Speaker 1: together peacefully with no police around, no bands, simply sharing

131
00:08:24,680 --> 00:08:30,160
Speaker 1: sunlight on each other on a warm afternoon. We know LSD, right,

132
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,000
Speaker 1: I mean, it's created somewhat by accident by chemist Albert

133
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,040
Speaker 1: Hoffman working for a pharmaceutical firm in Switzerland in three

134
00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:42,520
Speaker 1: and it's legally available until at some point in the

135
00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:45,840
Speaker 1: mid sixties or so, so we're people largely obtaining it

136
00:08:45,880 --> 00:08:50,520
Speaker 1: through legal or diverted legal sources. Up until that point, well,

137
00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,120
Speaker 1: it was made of legal in sixties six, and before

138
00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:57,600
Speaker 1: then one could actually buy small quantities from some of

139
00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: the manufacturers in Europe, most prominent among them Sandoz Laboratories

140
00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:07,160
Speaker 1: and Bossel, which is where Albert Dresser Hoffmann did his inventions.

141
00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:11,400
Speaker 1: So occasionally magic Grahams as they were called, would appear

142
00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: in the United States, and that's ten to twenty thousand

143
00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:19,360
Speaker 1: doses and one gram. And these were very carefully shared

144
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:24,959
Speaker 1: among young and psychoanalysts and UH saxophone players and abstract

145
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:31,079
Speaker 1: impressionists and theologians and quite a wide spectrum of humanity. Initially, well,

146
00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: there was a particularly fascinating character I think back in

147
00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,080
Speaker 1: the late fifties early sixties named al Hubbard Right, a

148
00:09:38,200 --> 00:09:41,880
Speaker 1: businessman who got his hand on some thousands or tens

149
00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,360
Speaker 1: of thousands of doses and supposedly made it his mission

150
00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,680
Speaker 1: in life to go around dosing prominent individuals five or

151
00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:55,280
Speaker 1: six thousand people, business leaders, famous actors, UH intellectuals. Did

152
00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,200
Speaker 1: you ever cross paths with him in those days or

153
00:09:57,240 --> 00:10:00,360
Speaker 1: did you have any special insights into this pioneer sort

154
00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,120
Speaker 1: of Johnny apple Seed of LSD, I'm aware of Hubburry,

155
00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,600
Speaker 1: but I did not cross paths with him. He uh

156
00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,200
Speaker 1: was cauite, a remarkable character, and would often wear a

157
00:10:10,200 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 1: boy scout suit and carry a faux handgun, sort of

158
00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:19,079
Speaker 1: quasi militaristic spoof on you know, oppressive control regimes. He

159
00:10:19,440 --> 00:10:23,040
Speaker 1: was a trickster, had a great deal of fun. But

160
00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,600
Speaker 1: I did become well acquainted with a very beloved psychiatrist

161
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:32,880
Speaker 1: named John Beresford, who passed away about John is famous

162
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:36,480
Speaker 1: for bringing in the magic Graham into the United States

163
00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:39,800
Speaker 1: and turning on, or rather exposing, if you will, to

164
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 1: the subjective effects of LSD stunning array of scientists and

165
00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:49,280
Speaker 1: physicians and uh seekers of every kind. Uh huh. Well,

166
00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:52,679
Speaker 1: you and I also had a friend come in Alexander

167
00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,880
Speaker 1: A ka Sasha Shulgin, who you know some would describe

168
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,720
Speaker 1: as one of the most brilliant chemists ever to devise

169
00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:04,800
Speaker 1: psychedelic oriented substances in his backyard lab. We're both you

170
00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:08,480
Speaker 1: and I were visitors in Lafayette, California, back when he

171
00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,959
Speaker 1: was still alive. Now he's most known for discovering a

172
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:15,559
Speaker 1: rediscovering M D M A a K ecstasy and its properties,

173
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,840
Speaker 1: but also inventing to CB and writing some remarkable books

174
00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:21,440
Speaker 1: with his wife, An children about this. When do you

175
00:11:21,480 --> 00:11:24,200
Speaker 1: meet Sasha Schulgin And how does he l end up

176
00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:27,480
Speaker 1: becoming I guess, something of a mentor in your life. Oh,

177
00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,840
Speaker 1: my goodness, Sasha is a truly beloved figure, and frankly

178
00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:35,200
Speaker 1: I loved him. I first became of his work at

179
00:11:35,360 --> 00:11:40,160
Speaker 1: twenty one. I'm standing in Malancroft, the old Malancroft Laboratories

180
00:11:40,440 --> 00:11:44,600
Speaker 1: at Harvard, and looking through a bound volume of the

181
00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,960
Speaker 1: Journal of Organic Chemistry, and looking at a set of

182
00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:52,520
Speaker 1: compounds called pylamans, which were psychoactive. And there was this

183
00:11:52,640 --> 00:11:58,199
Speaker 1: most unusual paper describing the production of ethyl amans, written

184
00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: by an author who's affiliation was not dal Chemical or

185
00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 1: this or that university, but simply three Shulgen Road, Lafayette, California.

186
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:16,359
Speaker 1: And what is this? And it described the first human effects.

187
00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:22,040
Speaker 1: It was unusual that prestigious journal such as Organic Chemistry

188
00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:26,320
Speaker 1: would publish human work, but Sasha did it. That was

189
00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,880
Speaker 1: oh goodness. UM sixty six or so. And I followed

190
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:34,600
Speaker 1: every paper that Sasha wrote with his UM co worker

191
00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,880
Speaker 1: Peyton Jacobs, the third for twenty years, but of course

192
00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:41,920
Speaker 1: never met the man. I was too awed by his

193
00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:46,760
Speaker 1: capability and statue, and uh at that point I was

194
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,480
Speaker 1: at Stanford and had a problem involving the synthesis of

195
00:12:51,640 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 1: Mesklin that was intractable. I was looking at this particular

196
00:12:55,280 --> 00:12:58,360
Speaker 1: process and it was just no way around a particular

197
00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:02,160
Speaker 1: synthetic hurdle. And I thought Sasha would be the only

198
00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,800
Speaker 1: person to whom one might dare approach and ask about this.

199
00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:12,719
Speaker 1: So I braved, writing a letter to Shogun Road in Lafayette,

200
00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,280
Speaker 1: and rather quickly came back an invitation personal invitation signed

201
00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,760
Speaker 1: by Sasha to visit his class at that time in

202
00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:26,360
Speaker 1: toxicology at San Francisco State, although we also taught at Berkeley.

203
00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:31,400
Speaker 1: Thus I appeared, and there was Sasha six five of

204
00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:37,160
Speaker 1: extraordinarily quite thick mane of hair, with the devoted and

205
00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:41,120
Speaker 1: always in attendance, and their daughter Wendy with her mane

206
00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,839
Speaker 1: of golden hair. And there was Sasha in front of

207
00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,560
Speaker 1: the class, the great smiles, scribbling these exotic structures on

208
00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 1: the chalkboard of the most elegant molecules. And he had

209
00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:58,359
Speaker 1: a certain lee about him, as though he was respectful

210
00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: of these creations that he had made, and understood how

211
00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,280
Speaker 1: they reached rather deeply into people's hearts and minds, and

212
00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,920
Speaker 1: somehow conveyed that to all of us. I I can

213
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:15,120
Speaker 1: you're caall going through that entire semester with a smile. M.

214
00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 1: We know. I just want to say to our listeners

215
00:14:17,800 --> 00:14:20,640
Speaker 1: it's important for me when I mentioned the name of

216
00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:23,800
Speaker 1: Sasha Shulgin in this conversation with Leonard, or as I

217
00:14:23,880 --> 00:14:27,040
Speaker 1: have in conversations with other guests, it's because I do

218
00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,080
Speaker 1: think it's important to appreciate who's some of the founders

219
00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:33,720
Speaker 1: um in drug research and drug policy were, and Sasha

220
00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:38,160
Speaker 1: Shulgin really was this sort of god father of psychedelics research,

221
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,800
Speaker 1: and in some respects his wife Anne was the godmother

222
00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 1: because she was his co writer on so much of

223
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:45,840
Speaker 1: what he did. I'm just trying to get a sense

224
00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,040
Speaker 1: of your life then, right, So you're born in forty five,

225
00:14:49,200 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 1: sixty three or eighteen, You spent a little time at Princeton,

226
00:14:52,280 --> 00:14:55,160
Speaker 1: you started hanging out in Greenwich Village, the jazz scene,

227
00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:58,960
Speaker 1: the marijuana scene. You head out West San Francisco and

228
00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 1: everything's up there. There's all this leaning to psycholics figures,

229
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: there's ken Keisi and uh so in that period in

230
00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 1: your twenties, you know, you don't end up getting arrested

231
00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,560
Speaker 1: for anything until you're in your thirties or forties or

232
00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,800
Speaker 1: something like that. Are you basically just hanging out? Are

233
00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:20,760
Speaker 1: you a research astician? Are you working for pharmaceutical firms?

234
00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,320
Speaker 1: Are you, to the extent you can say, engaged in

235
00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:26,080
Speaker 1: beginning to produce some of these things, either legally as

236
00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 1: part of projects or not so legally. What can you

237
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:31,520
Speaker 1: tell us about your twenties in the West Coast and

238
00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 1: wherever else? Well, you're very kind to ask me, Ethan,

239
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: you know, but I I can't say that I'm part

240
00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,440
Speaker 1: of a secret society or than anyone else was. But

241
00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 1: I think if one were part of a secret society,

242
00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,520
Speaker 1: and in those days one sort of had to be

243
00:15:46,680 --> 00:15:50,400
Speaker 1: to avoid being persecuted, that it would be most honorable

244
00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:54,320
Speaker 1: to maintain that secrecy even when there was no longer

245
00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 1: any need for it. Um. I lived in the mountains,

246
00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,880
Speaker 1: the far Mountains, the Great Forest, the snow fields. I

247
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 1: lived in the far deserts. You could hear the cavities

248
00:16:06,440 --> 00:16:09,880
Speaker 1: bark and the full moon upon the desert. I lived

249
00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:15,360
Speaker 1: near the oceans, the ceaseless waves, and I studied. I

250
00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: haunted the libraries of Berkeley and Stanford and San Francisco

251
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,560
Speaker 1: State San Jose State as much academy as I could

252
00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:30,720
Speaker 1: gather looking at structurals of molecules, studying what today is

253
00:16:30,760 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: psychedelic space, but in those years was almost a forbidden topic.

254
00:16:35,360 --> 00:16:38,520
Speaker 1: One did not mentioned these drugs at the risk of

255
00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:43,680
Speaker 1: one's career, as you well recall. So I became well

256
00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:48,360
Speaker 1: studied and all aspects of the chemistry and pharmacology of

257
00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,240
Speaker 1: of these compounds, and of course naturally broader aspects of pharmacology,

258
00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:59,880
Speaker 1: pharmaco kinetics, toxicology. UM I gathered several hundred undergraduate credit

259
00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:05,439
Speaker 1: from multiple institutions. And in between these forays into reading

260
00:17:05,440 --> 00:17:10,040
Speaker 1: and thought and practice, UM I lived in most remote

261
00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,160
Speaker 1: areas imaginable. I see. So even in talking about what

262
00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,399
Speaker 1: you personally were doing independent of what other people in

263
00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 1: the UH what's the phrase the brotherhood of underground chemists? Um,

264
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,760
Speaker 1: we're engaged in UH so, and I all I can

265
00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,119
Speaker 1: understand that and defer to your need to be cautious

266
00:17:28,119 --> 00:17:31,320
Speaker 1: about that. Let me take the conversation this way. What

267
00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,760
Speaker 1: would have been involved in setting up an LSD lab?

268
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,320
Speaker 1: You know, what are the risk the challenges, what's surprisingly easy,

269
00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:43,439
Speaker 1: what's surprisingly difficult? Well, let's of course a very uh

270
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:47,520
Speaker 1: deep question. You're asking me about what is required to

271
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:51,680
Speaker 1: establish a clandestine laboratory, And of course I can only

272
00:17:51,760 --> 00:17:56,480
Speaker 1: speak to that giving my present situation by projecting it

273
00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,240
Speaker 1: upon third parties. People that I have interviewed underground miss

274
00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 1: that I've interviewed, and I cannot of course speak to

275
00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: it personally. But I can't address the topic given those

276
00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,159
Speaker 1: caveats to establish an underground laboratory, and I wouldn't do

277
00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:15,200
Speaker 1: this at home. Kids were cars First of all, the

278
00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:20,600
Speaker 1: rather dedicated faith of a small group of people who

279
00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 1: have an effect given their lives over to this particular art.

280
00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:30,320
Speaker 1: Because even through the present day, with bill in dollar

281
00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:36,400
Speaker 1: corporations proliferating, we must recall that all these materials are

282
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:40,000
Speaker 1: still Schedule one, no known medical use for the most

283
00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 1: severe penalties for an underground laboratory, easily mandatory life without

284
00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 1: possibility of parole. So I certainly want not suggest anyone

285
00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:55,800
Speaker 1: entertained the prospect of doing so. However, those that braved

286
00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:00,320
Speaker 1: this assembly first collected a small handful of the fateful

287
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 1: and experience that had spent their entire lives in the field,

288
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:09,480
Speaker 1: and then accumulating the appropriate glassware and technical instruments which

289
00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:13,000
Speaker 1: could be quite extensive and would fill a room four

290
00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:17,120
Speaker 1: walls of a hundred and twenty scriffoot room to the ceiling,

291
00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: or several rooms. Appropriate liquids, reagents, exotic specialized glassware, some

292
00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,600
Speaker 1: of it handmade by pharmaceutical glass firms. A very elegant

293
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 1: and sensitive process. Not difficult, more difficult than methamphetamine. But

294
00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:40,119
Speaker 1: the difficulty arises not so much in the conversion of

295
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,680
Speaker 1: say lysergic acid to LSD, but in scaling up from

296
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:50,560
Speaker 1: a few milligrams to hundreds of grams or kims a

297
00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:56,359
Speaker 1: world quantity, if you will, ten million doses, twenty million doses.

298
00:19:56,720 --> 00:20:02,560
Speaker 1: That requires highly specialized equipment and practices, and some of

299
00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:07,520
Speaker 1: those practices are not simply technical. One may find oneself

300
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: in a moon suit with protective face shields and respirators,

301
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,159
Speaker 1: and glove is made of material which won't permit dissolution

302
00:20:18,200 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: by any solvent. One may find oneself in this regalia

303
00:20:23,080 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 1: hundred miles from the nearest paved road, with pump swirring,

304
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,359
Speaker 1: and at three in the morning, bathed in red light

305
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,920
Speaker 1: to prevent any breaking of the molecule by normal light.

306
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 1: Synthes is conducted under noble gases such as argon Uh

307
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:48,280
Speaker 1: surrounded by things which remind the manufacturer of the responsibility

308
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,440
Speaker 1: that the manufacturer has for the effect of this substance

309
00:20:51,480 --> 00:20:56,439
Speaker 1: and potentially millions of minds. And that is not something

310
00:20:56,480 --> 00:20:58,919
Speaker 1: that's simply a nine to five job and one forgets

311
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:03,399
Speaker 1: about and goes home. That's the responsibility which consumes every

312
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:08,600
Speaker 1: moment of one's day, weeks, months, years, one's life. Within

313
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 1: the setting, there may be votives, depending upon one's religious tradition,

314
00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:20,399
Speaker 1: cantles and sins, fires, burning music playing ranging from Gregorian

315
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 1: chant to Hildegard von Being into Provian music to chance

316
00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 1: by Maria Sabino, the Mazatec Curandera in Ohaka. And within

317
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,919
Speaker 1: this great assembly of light and sound and music. A

318
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:40,640
Speaker 1: number of the principal chemists in the past, Osley Nick

319
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: sand of the Brotherhood Tim Scully who is still with us,

320
00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 1: would at the moment of conversion from lysergic acid L

321
00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:53,520
Speaker 1: s D, the moment when suddenly ten million hits becomes psychoactive,

322
00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,720
Speaker 1: that very five minutes, they inevitably, and Nick mentioned this

323
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:04,280
Speaker 1: pup likely the inevitably would pray, and their own tradition,

324
00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 1: Nick would pray standing others would Neil place their hand

325
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:14,119
Speaker 1: upon their action kettle, and asked that this substance be

326
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:18,320
Speaker 1: a true medicine, and the hearts and minds of those

327
00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:22,800
Speaker 1: that used it, there would be a medicine to heal,

328
00:22:23,480 --> 00:22:27,320
Speaker 1: to alleviate suffering throughout the world, to act as a

329
00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 1: kind of grace upon us. You know, later, when I

330
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,919
Speaker 1: hear you describe this, part of what it sounds like

331
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 1: is almost a hybrid of On the one hand, I

332
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:42,399
Speaker 1: love the series Breaking Bad, right about the meth amphetamine

333
00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 1: manufacturer and who does the highest quality meth amphetamine, and

334
00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 1: who has this great underground lab in the end, and

335
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 1: all of this stuff, and they have to wear suits

336
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 1: in the way that you describe, in a high level

337
00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: of meticulousness and pride in their expertise. Yet another hand,

338
00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 1: there's this element in what you describe that resembles the

339
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: preparation of psychodelic and psychoactive substances by shaman's in traditional society.

340
00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,640
Speaker 1: It would it be fair is that an accurate thing

341
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 1: to describe it? In some sense that hybrid? Well, I

342
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 1: have to challenge the comparison with Breaking Bad. You know,

343
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:22,120
Speaker 1: methamphetamine is um a malaise upon humanity. I've lost kind

344
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 1: of a number of individuals I've seen come into federal

345
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 1: holding facilities emaciated and picking at their skin from weeks

346
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: and months of intravenous methamphetamine. So it carries a kind

347
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:38,679
Speaker 1: of if you will evil karma. Yeah, now I understand that.

348
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,639
Speaker 1: I think there's also the difference between meth amphetamine is

349
00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: being used in a medicinal frame and these others. But

350
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: I take your point about that, Leaving aside what you

351
00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: regard as the immorality um and that many people regards

352
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,199
Speaker 1: the immorality of producing methamphetamine for the illicit market, is

353
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,920
Speaker 1: it fair to say that there's some element of a

354
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:59,560
Speaker 1: hybrid between those two things, the modern day lab and

355
00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:05,119
Speaker 1: the spiritual tradition of the you know, indigenous healers who

356
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 1: are producing these substances. Absolutely, I you know, I'm sure

357
00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:14,000
Speaker 1: Walter White never prayed that his product act as a

358
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 1: grace upon the users. At the same time, there is

359
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,919
Speaker 1: a shamanic aspect, I suppose underground chemist of course recognize

360
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,520
Speaker 1: a great responsibility that the material be pure and uh

361
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 1: used appropriately and conveyed appropriately. I think that that may

362
00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 1: be best summed up in a statement that I think

363
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: Tim Scully was Nick San's partner made not long ago

364
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: and is agreed upon by a number of underground manufactors,

365
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: that the effective acceptance may reflect, in some small way,

366
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: the intent of the chemist. What the chemist has in

367
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,800
Speaker 1: their heart may reflect in the heart of the user.

368
00:24:56,760 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 1: And so it's imperative that one ascribed to a certain

369
00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,520
Speaker 1: purity and a certain compassion. We'll be talking more after

370
00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:20,159
Speaker 1: we hear this ad. The names you mentioned before, I

371
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: mean Owsley, there are books now written about him, and

372
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: I think people sometimes refer to a Owsley L. S

373
00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 1: DD as a found and a draw somewhere. You know,

374
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:31,960
Speaker 1: it's particular qualities. I think I remember watching a documentary

375
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: about Nick Sands of late. I hadn't know about Tim

376
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: Scully till I was researching for doing this episode with you. Um,

377
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:42,480
Speaker 1: and I don't know how accurate these books and documentaries are.

378
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: Could you just give us a little more of a

379
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: sketch about each of the three of them? Um? What

380
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:51,959
Speaker 1: was special about each one of them in that broader

381
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: brotherhood of which they were a part? Yes, I can

382
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:58,440
Speaker 1: speak a little bit too each Um. I was ay

383
00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: fondly known as Bear and the Grateful Dead touring community,

384
00:26:03,080 --> 00:26:07,879
Speaker 1: hence the Dancing Bears. Ungrateful Dead Logos was responsible for

385
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:13,400
Speaker 1: the first major distribution or drop of LSD and the sixties,

386
00:26:14,000 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: perhaps one million doses distributed as double dome white lightnings

387
00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:24,679
Speaker 1: or press tablets with Batman on it. The first million

388
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: doses he he made about five hundred grams over his

389
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: life a million doses, as he self reported. Bear was

390
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,120
Speaker 1: also created the wall of sound for the Grateful Dead shows,

391
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,879
Speaker 1: and there enormous number of subtranean tapes which have just

392
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,959
Speaker 1: surfaced of Bears recordings of early Dead. He died in Australia.

393
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: About Nixon, quite a flamboyant and wonderful individual, was the

394
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:58,120
Speaker 1: subject of a recent film The Sunshine makers strongly recommended

395
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:03,399
Speaker 1: to get a feeling for. Nick and Tim were arrested

396
00:27:03,480 --> 00:27:08,159
Speaker 1: for making about ten million doses. I attended the trial

397
00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:12,080
Speaker 1: I think in seventy three and listened to Tim testify,

398
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,879
Speaker 1: and shortly thereafter Tim went to prison for two years

399
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: and Nikki absconded to Puna, India where he continued his

400
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:27,520
Speaker 1: manufacturing and became quite a underground figure. Extraordinary individual and

401
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: very much outspoken and out front and would not limit

402
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,760
Speaker 1: his his views on matters. Nikki truly seminal figure, and

403
00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 1: they did uh two kilograms about ten million doses. Nikki

404
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: over his lifetime produced thirteen kilograms about a hundred and

405
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:48,160
Speaker 1: thirty million doses. Is there anyone else who left out? Well,

406
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: those are the primary figures UM. There are a number

407
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: of individuals who manufactured a quilo or two UM Todd,

408
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 1: Spenson and Boston, those that I wan't name because they

409
00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: were never arrested. The world of Clandis and LST manufacturer

410
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 1: is UM small, perhaps a handful of individuals, five or

411
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 1: ten individuals worldwide. It's been that way for fifty years,

412
00:28:12,320 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 1: generally centered in San Francisco, but labs can just as

413
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 1: easily be in Belgium or Italy. But if the were

414
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: key people in Europe, they never got arrested. There have

415
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 1: been quite a number of people have never been arrested.

416
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: One of the more interesting figures just passed away. That

417
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 1: would be Dennis Kelly, who did two years for a

418
00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,159
Speaker 1: very large lab production was called clear Light. This was

419
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 1: in the mid seventies. They were producing in burnt Ridge

420
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 1: argon form of LSD, known as a window pane because

421
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: they were little squares of translucent gelatine, a very famous patch.

422
00:28:48,520 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: Dennis again produced about two to three ks. But after

423
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 1: his two years of incarceration, Dennis Um entered these Zen

424
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: Soto Zen community and became a Zen priest and for

425
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: the next fifty years was known as Kinpo and developed

426
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: quite a following his um It has a beautiful monastery,

427
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: die Bosatsu Monastery and Mount Trumper, New York is Dennis's creation.

428
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: He just passed away a few months ago, and uh

429
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 1: left an autobiography maybe of interest to your listeners. And Leonard,

430
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 1: the Buddhist Zen traditional was something that you embraced periodically

431
00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 1: or maybe throughout your life. Huh. Well, Uh. As a

432
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: young person, I looked fondly down at Tasahara and the

433
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 1: Tasa Horror bread book, which was all the rage during

434
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: the hippie years. But something sort of called to me

435
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: about them. But I couldn't quite bring myself to stop

436
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: what I was doing and go don robes and face

437
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 1: the wall for weeks that seemed rather esoteric. But after

438
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 1: my first release from five years in prison, where I

439
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: was exposed to Um, a Chinese priest that came in

440
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 1: from the Chinese monastery in l A, I went directly

441
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: to Soto was in the oldest Soto was in monastery

442
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 1: in North America, and knocked on the door and asked admission,

443
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: and was taken in and remained there for two years.

444
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 1: Very rigorous practice up at three in the morning, morning

445
00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: sittings at four in the morning, sweeping the sidewalks at

446
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: five in the morning, robed lots of chanting and very formal,

447
00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: refined practices in the Japanese tradition. Very beautiful and gentle

448
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 1: people would bow to you in the hallway, which was

449
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 1: quite a change of pace from stabbings in prison. So

450
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: I became quite fond of the monastic setting and left

451
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 1: only when I received a letter of acceptance from Harvard,

452
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: and at that point simply had to go. So letter

453
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:04,840
Speaker 1: now that one, I'll say, has a lab set up

454
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 1: to produce it large volume? How long does it take

455
00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: to produce how big a match? And is this something

456
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: that you would do for some weeks at a time

457
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 1: and then just take off a long time or was

458
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: this an ongoing process that could go on for months

459
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: and months and months well. The government's um primary witness

460
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 1: stated that the lab I he alleged I was responsible

461
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 1: for produced about a kilogram a month for twenty years.

462
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 1: That would be twitter and fifty kilograms. But of course

463
00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:40,959
Speaker 1: that to me is quite fasciful. We'll let the listener

464
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: decide on that. UM. In terms of the process itself,

465
00:31:45,320 --> 00:31:48,080
Speaker 1: the process would depend upon it what stage in history

466
00:31:48,120 --> 00:31:51,640
Speaker 1: that you're simply doing the synthesis. Nick and Tim were

467
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: young men late twenties early thirties. They were using an

468
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,280
Speaker 1: antique cookbook method called guard brick, which is quite toxic

469
00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:06,280
Speaker 1: involving sulfur oxide. Patented process UM. I am not quite

470
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,640
Speaker 1: sure the process howsole used, but probably something quite similar

471
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: to it, or another patented public process which is relatively

472
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: low yield or produces number of by products. But as

473
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: the science evolved over the next thirty and forty years,

474
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,840
Speaker 1: but the time we get to two thousand, processes existed.

475
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,240
Speaker 1: If one were the devotee of the literature and really

476
00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: thought about these things, processes existed which would produce in

477
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: a non flammable way at room temperature, large quantities of

478
00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: immensely pure LSD. These were never published in the sense

479
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 1: that it might destabilize the world market or make entry

480
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: into manufacture too simple. People thought it was probably best

481
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: that UM there'd be some scientific hurdle that would prevent

482
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 1: those that were less dedicated from entering the yield, so

483
00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: that simple of cookment methods for these very advanced high

484
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: yield methods were never published. I see it was anybody

485
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,520
Speaker 1: you know they ever harmed, uh in the process of

486
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: producing LSD. Uh, not that I know of what you're describing,

487
00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: you know suggests. I mean it's like when I when

488
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: I was, you know, thinking about your ostensibly getting into

489
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: this line of work and what would motivate you. You

490
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,480
Speaker 1: wonder how the combination of on the one hand, just

491
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,479
Speaker 1: the challenge of it all, uh, the natural aptitude and

492
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: curiosity about chemistry, the appreciation for LSD and some of

493
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:48,160
Speaker 1: these other psycholic substances having special properties for humankind. Um,

494
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 1: But there was those element that you know, all of

495
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 1: the people or I don't know all, but most were

496
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: allegedly selling these things and earning sometimes some fairly substantial

497
00:33:57,080 --> 00:34:00,600
Speaker 1: amounts of money. But many of the key players were

498
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: also apparently using their money and sometimes more in philanthropic

499
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: ways as opposed to buying fancy houses or boats or

500
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 1: you know, having you know, this sort of lifestyle. So

501
00:34:12,640 --> 00:34:15,719
Speaker 1: I'm curious, how is it that mixture of variables in

502
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 1: all of this? Uh? Is it one factor that stands

503
00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 1: out more than others. You know, I realized you can't

504
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 1: fully reflect on your own perspectives on this. But speaking

505
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:25,799
Speaker 1: a little more in the abstract or among members of

506
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 1: the Brotherhood of Underground Chemists, well, I can go back

507
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:32,240
Speaker 1: to UH. I think what Nick said before his death,

508
00:34:33,000 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: that he felt there was a calling that one has

509
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: called upon if you will UH in the next case,

510
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 1: by some higher power to UH do this sort of thing.

511
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: Of course, one easily sacrifices one's life, at least in

512
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 1: the past, not so much in the future. I mean,

513
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: we're going to see corporations manufacturing let's see as they

514
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: are now with government licensing. And that brings up an

515
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 1: interesting point which goes back to your early question about

516
00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:08,879
Speaker 1: shamanic manufactor in the future um delicit medicalization and use

517
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:12,839
Speaker 1: of psychedelics. The sources will not be by someone who

518
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 1: searches their soul and praise over a pure compound. It

519
00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:21,200
Speaker 1: will be done by a technician, perhaps in China, who

520
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,799
Speaker 1: simply goes home at five o'clock. And the question is UM, well,

521
00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:26,840
Speaker 1: this affect the outcome in the hearts and minds of

522
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:29,760
Speaker 1: the users. Well, I mean one pel engage in control

523
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: double line studies on the road where people could do

524
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,840
Speaker 1: their own at home control applying study and you know,

525
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: randomly see and see record those experiences. What do you think.

526
00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Of course, we're speculating here, Ethan. You know, scientifically, the

527
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,799
Speaker 1: idea of individual influencing the outcome of a drug and

528
00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 1: a third party is not tenable. It's merely myth, but

529
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: it's an entertaining myth, and it may keep certain manufacturers

530
00:35:57,239 --> 00:35:59,240
Speaker 1: on their toes if they think they have to harbor

531
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: a pure heart. You know, it relates to another issue there, right.

532
00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:06,680
Speaker 1: I mean, there's a conversation that I've had, I think

533
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,920
Speaker 1: in some of the other interviews, but about the difference

534
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 1: between the synthesized chemical the mescaline, on the one hand,

535
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:16,839
Speaker 1: and the peote or san pedro from which you know

536
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: it can be derived or with psilocybin and mushrooms. And

537
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: there are those I think Sasha Shilka would be included,

538
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: who said, you know, whether it's a synthetically produced or

539
00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: whether it's coming from something that's growing in nature, you know,

540
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: it's still basically the same chemical. And if anything, the

541
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 1: basic chemical may even be a little easier because it

542
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 1: doesn't come with the things that upset your stomach and

543
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,359
Speaker 1: things like that that happened with the plant product, and

544
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: others who believe that there's something either fundamentally different or

545
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 1: better about having it come from the plant itself. And

546
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,720
Speaker 1: now you're saying that even when you produce something synthetically,

547
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: that having a nick Sands or an Owsley produces is

548
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:01,000
Speaker 1: somehow going to produce a different product than would bes um.

549
00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 1: You know, employee of a pharmaceutical company a decade from now,

550
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,560
Speaker 1: who's just doing this stuff is part of his nine job,

551
00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:09,280
Speaker 1: And so what about that first point between the natural

552
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: plant based substance and is synthetic? I would tend to

553
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: agree with Sasho that synthesized mescalind hemi sulfite hydrate, for example,

554
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 1: the most beautiful long needles. These are ten centimeter needles,

555
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: the most beautiful physical substance imaginable. If that mescalin is

556
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:32,799
Speaker 1: the same as the mescalin of an all night the

557
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 1: Native American church ceremony with prayer, fans and incense around

558
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:40,400
Speaker 1: the fire and the tp and the dawn woman bringing

559
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,520
Speaker 1: water and all the prayers and chants for healing, all

560
00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 1: those two different, well, the mescaline isn't the circumstances in

561
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 1: which it is offered are are quite different. So I

562
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:56,840
Speaker 1: think that myths, if you will, or positive setting setting

563
00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:01,480
Speaker 1: as a strong factor with a natural sub senances. Of course,

564
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 1: so there are many new startups. I see them in

565
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: pitch decks every week of firms that are attempting to

566
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 1: make various elixirs from psilocybin mushrooms, claiming that the other

567
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: materials psychoactive and nons acktective and the mushroom itself will

568
00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,839
Speaker 1: influence the subjective effect on the healing properties and other

569
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:30,000
Speaker 1: larger concerns. Say no, no, pure psilocybin speaks for itself.

570
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: So these have yet to be resolved. I suspect the

571
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 1: industry will will resolve these gun dundrums in the next

572
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: two years and we'll all have great fun watching it happen. Well,

573
00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: as I want to come back to this is towards

574
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: the end of the interview, because part of our connecting

575
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 1: or reconnecting in recent months is around some of this

576
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,080
Speaker 1: new world of the of the investment in the psychedelics

577
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: for profits. But let me just correct me if I'm

578
00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: wrong on this. But so when you do the sense

579
00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,880
Speaker 1: I have from what you're saying is of a calling

580
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 1: of seeing that this is something called to do, and

581
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 1: that a persistence of doing this, even the face of obstacles.

582
00:39:04,440 --> 00:39:06,440
Speaker 1: And so I came across and tell me if this

583
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: is factually correct or not. But when I one of

584
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,359
Speaker 1: the pieces I found said, well, you know, Leonard, your

585
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,960
Speaker 1: first arrest in this area was a petty arrest when

586
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventies six or possession of payot. And then

587
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:20,640
Speaker 1: there's something else about another I think, I don't know

588
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 1: how minor, but for creating a small m d M

589
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: A lab back in the mid seventies, and then some

590
00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,960
Speaker 1: years later, in the late eighties, you get arrested amount

591
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: of View, California for allegedly having an LSD lab. Spent

592
00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: five years in prison until two come out, and a

593
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: number of years where you're engaged with academia, getting a

594
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: master's degree at Kennedy School, writing in publications. But then

595
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: the big bust, uh, And I think it was election

596
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 1: day two thousand, which puts you in prison for twenty years. Now,

597
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,279
Speaker 1: if those details are correct, it suggests that you were

598
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:56,719
Speaker 1: How could I say incorrigible in the most upstanding sort

599
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 1: of way, since fundamentally I do believe that the work

600
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,400
Speaker 1: that you were allegedally engaged in performed an enormous community

601
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: service for humankind throughout this period. But I mean, it

602
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 1: does suggest that these criminal justice penalties kept coming after you,

603
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: but that you kept persisting with something that you love

604
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: to do. Well. Yes, Ethan, you've kind of got me

605
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: on the spot there, but yes. So there were multiple

606
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: arrests involving psychedelic drugs. Perhaps every seven or eight years

607
00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:30,439
Speaker 1: one would occur. And these range from minor arrest where

608
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: one was taken away for a day or two in

609
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: release because the substance wasn't what they claimed to be

610
00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:40,279
Speaker 1: or might have been legal, to arrests which required six

611
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: months in jail, and then the Mountain View seizure which

612
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,760
Speaker 1: resulted in five years, which is quite a significant LSD

613
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:54,640
Speaker 1: laboratory actually, from what I understand, the same size as

614
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: the later Kansas arrest in two thousand, which resulted in

615
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 1: not twenty years but two life senators mandatory life sentences

616
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: without possibility of parole, other words, a death sentence. The

617
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: possibility of sorting it all out by appellate filings um

618
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: is something of an American dream, and indeed does occur

619
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:25,280
Speaker 1: and supports the mercy and wisdom of our judicial system.

620
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 1: But it is so very rarely seen that men tend

621
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 1: to lose hope. Although at this late date I harbored

622
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 1: no ill will against the government. Mm hm, you know, Leonard,

623
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I was about to get to this point

624
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 1: about your sentencing, and I was looking up some of

625
00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 1: the data on this and among there's something like two

626
00:41:45,239 --> 00:41:49,040
Speaker 1: point two point three million people behind bars in America today,

627
00:41:49,360 --> 00:41:51,480
Speaker 1: of whom about two thirds are in state prisons in

628
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: federal jails. Of that one and a half million who

629
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: are in state and federal prisons, roughly two hundred thousand

630
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: the last that I saw a count are there serving

631
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:04,920
Speaker 1: a life sentence, either mandated one or an effectively a

632
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,759
Speaker 1: life sentence. Half of them are black. But interestingly, about

633
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:13,160
Speaker 1: eight percent, seventeen thousand are people who were convicted of

634
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,960
Speaker 1: non violent offenses. Now, one can make too much of

635
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,719
Speaker 1: distinction between not non violent and violent offenses. There are

636
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:22,359
Speaker 1: people who committed you know, non violent offenses. Look who

637
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:24,319
Speaker 1: made off dead and the fact that he died behind

638
00:42:24,360 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: bars I have no ethical problem with. And on the

639
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: other hand, there are violent offenses, you know that don't

640
00:42:30,080 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 1: seem to me to be in some separate category from

641
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,399
Speaker 1: some of the horrors of what people can do non

642
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 1: violently to one another. But that said, you know, and

643
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: having been involved in building an organization, a movement opposing

644
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: these draconian sentences for drug offenses. I mean, the first

645
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:46,640
Speaker 1: thing I want to ask you is, when I read

646
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,640
Speaker 1: about the judge who sentenced to you to the two

647
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:54,399
Speaker 1: life sentences with no possibility of parole, um, you can

648
00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,680
Speaker 1: in your heart forgive that person. And I imagine that

649
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:58,919
Speaker 1: he's no longer alive. And part of what I read

650
00:42:59,040 --> 00:43:01,400
Speaker 1: was he was a highly right wing and maybe somewhat

651
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 1: senile figure. But on you really are able to forgive

652
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 1: him because that was a discretionary choice he made right

653
00:43:08,719 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: the law did not require him to sentence you in

654
00:43:10,640 --> 00:43:13,360
Speaker 1: the way he did. Um. That would be Judge of

655
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:20,040
Speaker 1: Richard Rogers Um, a very dignified for the pointee Republican,

656
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: former mayor of Manhattan, Kansas, ardent softball player, well loved

657
00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: in the legal community and Topeka, very distinguished jurish who

658
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:38,759
Speaker 1: handed down a number of difficult but well respected decisions.

659
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: Of course, I battled in the Judge Rogers court. I

660
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:45,520
Speaker 1: wrote over a thousand motions studied the law for years

661
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: to write UH such briefs, which very thoughtfully refined by

662
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 1: the law offices of Billy Rourke in the Topeka A

663
00:43:55,640 --> 00:43:59,280
Speaker 1: Rugby playing wild Man, the last of the fighting Liberal

664
00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 1: attorneys and Kansas. The late Billy Rourke. Judge Rogers Uh

665
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 1: occasionally entertained the jury during the longest trial in Kansas history.

666
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 1: One of his great quotes, I recall this trial is

667
00:44:12,120 --> 00:44:16,200
Speaker 1: like something out of the Arabian Nights. It's got a

668
00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 1: great laugh from the jury. And he once called me

669
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 1: a young man, which I really appreciated at. But he

670
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,359
Speaker 1: was most courteous. I harbored. No. U nowhere a will

671
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 1: against Judge Rogers, even though another judge might have sentenced

672
00:44:30,640 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: you to a dramatically shorter amount of time. No, I

673
00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 1: think not. I think that Judge rogers hands were tied

674
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: simply by the mandatory nature of sentencing. Ten grams or

675
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: more of a substance containing a detectable amount of LSD,

676
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,520
Speaker 1: which might be one microgram, is mandatory life at the

677
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 1: quantities that we're discussing. So Judge Rogers, as he mentioned

678
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: at sentencing, his hands were tied. I see, okay, Well,

679
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: I stand corrected on that I thought he had there

680
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: was a discretionary element of it, you know, And hearing

681
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:05,879
Speaker 1: you talk in the past a little bit about your

682
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: prison experience, just by chance, I've been watching this TV

683
00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: series called Rectify, produced by Sundance now on a m

684
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,640
Speaker 1: C plus, I think, and it's about, you know, a

685
00:45:17,719 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: young man white who is convicted of having killed a

686
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 1: young woman while into the influence of mushrooms. It so happens, uh,

687
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: and can't accurately recollect what happened, and then gets out

688
00:45:31,040 --> 00:45:35,000
Speaker 1: twenty years later, having been traumatized by his experience and

689
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: uncertain about what's going to happen in the future. And

690
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: I have to say, as I was looking forward to

691
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,279
Speaker 1: having this interview with you, and I'm watching at night

692
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 1: this show, I started thinking about some of these parallels

693
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 1: and just the experience, you know, of being in this place. Um, well,

694
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 1: you know, there's an all male environment where physical touch

695
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: is either something that's either not good that just doesn't

696
00:45:56,239 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 1: happen with a sound of chains and the solitude the

697
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:03,560
Speaker 1: act of being in a maximum security setting when that's

698
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: not called for in your a case like yours or

699
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 1: many others to protect other inmates or what have you.

700
00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: It seems purely punitive. Um, But I'm curious, I mean

701
00:46:11,080 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: to get through that. And I imagine you know there

702
00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 1: must have been substantial periods of time where you thought

703
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,319
Speaker 1: that there was little to no chance of your ever

704
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 1: becoming a freeman during the rest of your life? Were

705
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 1: there periods of profound hopelessness and all of this? And

706
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 1: how did you sustain yourself through all of that? Yes,

707
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 1: that that period of hopelessness, even you're entirely correct, began

708
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,439
Speaker 1: on November six, two thousand and in it on July

709
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: and every day in between those two dates twenty years.

710
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: I thought I would most certainly die in prison, and

711
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:52,600
Speaker 1: everyone I knew thought the same, my attorneys, my friends,

712
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: my family, and my children, um, those of the public

713
00:46:55,960 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: that paid attention to the case. Um, there is no

714
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:03,280
Speaker 1: way out from a mandatory life sentence simply does not occur,

715
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: vanishingly rare, only with the passage and a miracle in itself,

716
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:14,399
Speaker 1: the passage in the First Step Act by Congress during

717
00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 1: the last few days of session in December. The last

718
00:47:18,200 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 1: few days it was a bipartisan passage of the First

719
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: Step Act, which for the first time allowed inmates to

720
00:47:26,520 --> 00:47:31,080
Speaker 1: petition the court for release based on their good works,

721
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:38,600
Speaker 1: or their redemption or other factors medical, familial that would

722
00:47:38,600 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 1: persuade the court that they had served an adequate amount

723
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,960
Speaker 1: of time and were no longer a threat to the public. Naturally,

724
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 1: I filed immediately on that very lengthy briefses, including exhibits,

725
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: and that matriculated through the system for over a year.

726
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 1: Denied at the instituo level by the warden, denied at

727
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:06,480
Speaker 1: the regional level by b OP, denied at the national

728
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: level by the BP director, denied by the United States

729
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: Attorney's Office. So what hope was there left? And then

730
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 1: a great miracle happened, And there was a merciful and

731
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: distinguished jurist who, with great courage and wisdom, and I

732
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: suppose a small amount of faith, read our petition, and

733
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:30,799
Speaker 1: the tempo of the times was so moved as to

734
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: grant release. And since then it's been like being born again. Yeah.

735
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:37,920
Speaker 1: But I noticed Leonard that went I read the decision,

736
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 1: and it seems like he went out of his way

737
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 1: to say, I'm doing this because of COVID and Leonard

738
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,279
Speaker 1: seventy or almost seventy five, and there is a risk here.

739
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: But in terms of the other arguments. He didn't seem

740
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: to be moved by the petition of people who were

741
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: fighting for your release, or the good works you've done

742
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,200
Speaker 1: in other areas, or the insights you'd provided on the

743
00:48:59,239 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: fentinel christ Is two people in law enforcement. Um. Now,

744
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: maybe he was just covering his butt, and maybe he

745
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: was in fact moved by those other variables, um, and

746
00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 1: just using the COVID as the kind of clear reason.

747
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 1: But what do you think. Well, I can't speak of

748
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:19,000
Speaker 1: what was in the mind of this particular jurist except

749
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:24,640
Speaker 1: that I honor his wisdom and decision and whatever factors

750
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: influenced that decision, and they could only be multiple factors.

751
00:49:30,400 --> 00:49:35,839
Speaker 1: I am deeply grateful for that moment of grace. There

752
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 1: was somebody else in there with you, I think, UM,

753
00:49:38,920 --> 00:49:43,160
Speaker 1: a young man named Ross Albert Right who became famous

754
00:49:43,239 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: or infamous, as one might have it, because he was

755
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: the founder of Silk Road, which was a decade or

756
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,640
Speaker 1: so ago that supposedly the world's biggest dark net site

757
00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: for illicit activities, including obtaining illicit drugs around the world,

758
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: and people were horrified when he sentenced for life. Now,

759
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: there were some accusations he may have put contracts out

760
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,319
Speaker 1: of some people, but those were never substantiated. His mother

761
00:50:08,440 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: actually came to one of the Drug Policy Alliance biennial

762
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,560
Speaker 1: events and I met her, and she's had a campaign

763
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:15,719
Speaker 1: to try to get him out. But do you see

764
00:50:15,800 --> 00:50:18,960
Speaker 1: him as somebody sort of similarly situated with yourself, a

765
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:23,360
Speaker 1: kind of younger generation version of yourself, who is unjustly

766
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:27,440
Speaker 1: incarcerated for far far more time than he ever should

767
00:50:27,440 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 1: have been. And thank you Ethan for mentioning Ross. Of

768
00:50:32,280 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: course I know his mother lend his father Kurt and

769
00:50:35,800 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: call him each night during trial in Manhattan, on the

770
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:43,560
Speaker 1: very darkest days, And then as he entered the system,

771
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 1: suggested that perhaps he should be moved to a institution

772
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: that would be less gang riddled and threatening, because Ross, uh,

773
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: it was of course a target people, assuming he had

774
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,200
Speaker 1: hidden bitcoin, and of course he's a would be a

775
00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: gang victim. And I recall how happy I was one

776
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,560
Speaker 1: day on the yard, walking in circles for twenty years

777
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: on a dirt track to see a young then bearded

778
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:13,320
Speaker 1: man walk in. And there he was, and we became

779
00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:18,799
Speaker 1: great friends and spoke daily and walked quite a lot

780
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 1: in my last year incarceration. So I learned of Ross's

781
00:51:25,560 --> 00:51:29,359
Speaker 1: heart and fears. Of course, the idea that he would

782
00:51:29,400 --> 00:51:34,360
Speaker 1: harm anyone is this nonsense. Of the course, even homeland

783
00:51:34,400 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 1: security I knew that was nonsense and didn't bring charges.

784
00:51:38,239 --> 00:51:43,799
Speaker 1: A very fine looking young man about thirty three, gentle meditative,

785
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 1: a deep reader in economics, um, a writer, a sensitive

786
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 1: young man that's been in for eight years now, surely

787
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: has gotten the message and would never, never re offend

788
00:51:56,920 --> 00:52:00,320
Speaker 1: and would be a tremendous asset in the crypto world,

789
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 1: in the bitcoin world, as a speaker, as a teacher.

790
00:52:05,040 --> 00:52:07,200
Speaker 1: Lynn his mother told me that when Ross heard of

791
00:52:07,239 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: my release, he cried not out of self pity, but

792
00:52:11,640 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: out of happiness. Because we talked. We knew every every

793
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 1: detail of each other's cases and hopes and fears, and

794
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 1: every filing and everything about each other's families, and and

795
00:52:21,800 --> 00:52:25,719
Speaker 1: so we shared the fear and the dwindling hope and

796
00:52:25,800 --> 00:52:28,439
Speaker 1: the simple faith of a mustard seed, if you will,

797
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 1: in biblical terms, that it all might change. And when

798
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: it did for me, I guess the reservoirs, and and

799
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:39,800
Speaker 1: Ross broke loose. I promised him that when I spoken

800
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: podcast or spoke publicly, I would always mention him and

801
00:52:44,719 --> 00:52:47,920
Speaker 1: draw public attention to his plight. It's time for him

802
00:52:47,960 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: to go home. The most heartbreaking thing to me with

803
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,359
Speaker 1: Ross on the rare occasions I had visits was that

804
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:59,839
Speaker 1: Ross always had visits every visiting period from a love

805
00:53:00,040 --> 00:53:05,279
Speaker 1: a French programmer woman that fell in love with Ross

806
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: while he was way. They had special permission to see

807
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 1: each other a lot. So I'd be in the visiting

808
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 1: room and she would come in. They would have a

809
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 1: brief hello and goodbye, just a brief brief hog and

810
00:53:17,560 --> 00:53:20,479
Speaker 1: spent hours talking. And I would sit there and think

811
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:26,120
Speaker 1: to myself, how beautiful, but also how very very sad,

812
00:53:26,760 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: because these young people are still in the honeymoon phase.

813
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,719
Speaker 1: He had only been in eight years, and so they

814
00:53:32,760 --> 00:53:37,280
Speaker 1: still had faith that something might miraculously changed by emotion,

815
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:43,880
Speaker 1: habeas motion, some elegant legal argument, and they don't know

816
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: the dark, lonely years that stretched endlessly ahead. Ross could

817
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 1: be there twenty years, he could be there thirty years.

818
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:57,319
Speaker 1: I've said goodbye to more than one inmate who has

819
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:02,239
Speaker 1: done forty years. So my my heartward break watching them.

820
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:05,840
Speaker 1: It is important that the public, the public that cares

821
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 1: about evolution of computers, evolution psychedelics, UH evolution of simple

822
00:54:11,640 --> 00:54:17,239
Speaker 1: humanity and freedom for the individual. Recognize that long term

823
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: imprisonment of the nonviolent what we've seen is uncivilized in

824
00:54:22,719 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 1: the eight or nine ten years is enough for anyone

825
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:28,120
Speaker 1: for a nonviolent crime. No letter. I mean, of course,

826
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: I agree with you, and I think it's you know,

827
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: it's part of the dark side of America's exceptionalism that

828
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,200
Speaker 1: not only have we broken all records in the history

829
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 1: of human civilization in terms of the percent of the

830
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 1: population or incarcerating, but also the way in which we

831
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:45,240
Speaker 1: throw away so many hundreds of thousands of people's lives,

832
00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:47,719
Speaker 1: you know, for life, and these incredible amounts of time.

833
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: You know, I had heard you else. We're talking about

834
00:54:50,560 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 1: how you got through, you know, these decades thinking this

835
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 1: might be all it would ever be. And obviously you

836
00:54:55,840 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 1: were writing your legal briefs and those were time consuming.

837
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,880
Speaker 1: And I read about how you talked about becoming a

838
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:04,080
Speaker 1: big fan of nineteenth century British literature and reading vastly

839
00:55:04,120 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 1: in that way, and you had relationships with people like

840
00:55:06,840 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 1: Ross and others. I mean, there was that, But then

841
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: I think one other thing you did was you wrote

842
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:15,399
Speaker 1: a book, and in reading about the book, it made

843
00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:17,520
Speaker 1: me think of the book that Sasha Shilgan and his

844
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:19,960
Speaker 1: wife and wrote. They wrote a book called pekal p

845
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,240
Speaker 1: I h k a l which stood for fin Athlens

846
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: I have known and loved. And the second half of

847
00:55:23,880 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: the book is basically the recipes for all these psychedelic substances,

848
00:55:26,960 --> 00:55:29,680
Speaker 1: but the first half is a sort of thinly disguised

849
00:55:29,719 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: autobiographical account of their lives. And they felt a need

850
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,640
Speaker 1: to frame it his fiction because of the consequences of law.

851
00:55:37,200 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: And you wrote a book which I think integrated some

852
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,200
Speaker 1: autobiographical um with some fictional elements as well. Maybe you

853
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: could just tell our listeners a bit about that. Thank you.

854
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:53,160
Speaker 1: And the book is called The Rose of Paracelsus. Paracelsus

855
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 1: was a sixteenth century alchemists and Basel philosopher, and the

856
00:55:58,480 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: title is adapted from a short story by the Argentine

857
00:56:01,920 --> 00:56:06,760
Speaker 1: writer Jorge Luis Borges. I wrote this almost seven hundred

858
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,680
Speaker 1: page tomb and pencil since there were only ten rickety

859
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: typewriters for eight hundred men, and they were only available

860
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: a few hours a day. But it was also very

861
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 1: nourishing to write by hand. I spent twenty years reading,

862
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 1: mostly Victorian edwater in literature, I found that a great respite.

863
00:56:28,600 --> 00:56:32,400
Speaker 1: When I looked up, there were bloody gang battles and

864
00:56:32,560 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 1: stabbings and killings, and loud speakers going off in tons

865
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:39,520
Speaker 1: of razor wir and guard towers and flash band grenades

866
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:45,400
Speaker 1: and tattooed faces with spider webs, And when I looked

867
00:56:45,400 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 1: down into the text, I might be in nineteen century England,

868
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:57,880
Speaker 1: with carriages and horses and manners and a gentler world.

869
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:02,719
Speaker 1: So it was easy to choose between the too. So

870
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:06,680
Speaker 1: The Rose of paracelsis Um is written in a very mannered,

871
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:12,960
Speaker 1: almost Victorian, almost archaic language. It will be familiar to

872
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:17,000
Speaker 1: those that are devoted readers of literature, but may be

873
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: very difficult for those that expect a casual, breezy read.

874
00:57:21,960 --> 00:57:27,440
Speaker 1: The word craft is dense. There are puzzles and for shadowings,

875
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 1: and the little humor not all ponderous. But in writing it,

876
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 1: sitting in a sixty square foot steel cell forever, I

877
00:57:38,760 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 1: found myself trying to remember what the world looked like,

878
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:48,479
Speaker 1: because after about five years you forget images. You still

879
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 1: see your family's face and your children's face, of course,

880
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 1: but not haven't seen a flower or dog or cat

881
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,120
Speaker 1: or river, forest or tree in so many years that

882
00:57:58,880 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: these are majestic recollections, but they are evaporating quickly, and

883
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 1: so one tries to hold onto them. So and writing

884
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:14,200
Speaker 1: the Rose, I tried to describe, for example, a great

885
00:58:14,240 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 1: forest and had some difficulty in doing that. Let's take

886
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 1: a break here and go to an ad Leonard. You know,

887
00:58:33,960 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: we really just met a few months ago, and so

888
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:40,680
Speaker 1: I really know the letterd post this experience in prison.

889
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:45,200
Speaker 1: But I'm curious when you reflect, or when people who

890
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: have known you for a very long time re encounter you. Now, um,

891
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: what are your your and their perceptions about how you

892
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 1: have changed or evolved as a human being, as a personality, um,

893
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:04,280
Speaker 1: from your days before you went into that life sentence. Oh,

894
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:08,480
Speaker 1: I can't see myself faithan, I don't know. I probably

895
00:59:09,040 --> 00:59:11,440
Speaker 1: I would put it as the younger version was probably

896
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 1: brash and excited and uh, perhaps overconfident. The current version,

897
00:59:20,440 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 1: which is twenty years on, is an elderly man with

898
00:59:24,840 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 1: quade a few wrinkles, but I still managed to twinkle,

899
00:59:30,240 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 1: and I have some laughs and a growing wonderful circle

900
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: of friends, and my family is reawakening. However, joyous the

901
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 1: times were just before my arrest. As you can possibly

902
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: imagine the complexity and ecstasies of those days, the simple

903
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: joys now our transcendent. I've never had more fun in

904
00:59:54,800 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 1: my life. And frankly the last few months, I have

905
00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 1: to say I was amazed when he met in New

906
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 1: York a few months ago, and then when you were

907
01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:05,800
Speaker 1: in Boulder. We were both in Boulder for a meeting

908
01:00:05,840 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 1: involving also the psychedelics investment area, and then I think

909
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 1: you were visiting your son who is in medical school there.

910
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 1: But I was just blown away at the way here

911
01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 1: you are. When you went away twenty years ago, technology

912
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:21,840
Speaker 1: was so radically different, and here you are reconnecting, connecting

913
01:00:21,840 --> 01:00:25,280
Speaker 1: with whole new worlds of people getting deeply engaged in

914
01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: the whole new you know, breakout research with psychedelics and

915
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 1: the investment side of that. You're introducing me to people

916
01:00:31,120 --> 01:00:33,480
Speaker 1: I didn't know in this field, which was really quite

917
01:00:33,480 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 1: special for me. And I was just struck by you

918
01:00:36,880 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 1: know how well. I mean, maybe it's just a kind

919
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:41,360
Speaker 1: of quasi facade and you go back at home at

920
01:00:41,440 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 1: night and collapse in some pile because of what you've

921
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 1: been through, but it's quite extraordinary to see you. I mean,

922
01:00:47,600 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: here we are in crazy Manhattan a few months ago,

923
01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: and you seem perfectly fine. I wonder if if that

924
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,560
Speaker 1: many people could come out of your experience of twenty

925
01:00:55,640 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: years of incarceration in a maximum security federal correctional institute Susan,

926
01:01:00,560 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 1: most of which spent hopelessly thinking you will never get out,

927
01:01:03,760 --> 01:01:07,200
Speaker 1: and come out with that level of vitality and youthfulness

928
01:01:07,240 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: and high spirit and renewed curiosity about all around you.

929
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: I mean, what you're saying here, it does seem like

930
01:01:13,200 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 1: you're having the time of your life. That this is this,

931
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 1: you know, monumental gift that has been presented to you

932
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 1: to make the most of. Uh, You're You're absolutely right, Ethan.

933
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: It was like, frankly, it's with a circle of friends

934
01:01:25,680 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 1: and startups and investors and just the expanding social nature

935
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: of the world, which is increasingly intensifying, especially the psychedelic

936
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 1: revolution that's now occurring. It feels like coming home. I

937
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:43,320
Speaker 1: feel warmly received wherever I go. It's like a party

938
01:01:43,360 --> 01:01:47,280
Speaker 1: where everyone knows each other and it's all okay, and

939
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:51,120
Speaker 1: one's words are received well and one's thoughts are respected,

940
01:01:51,160 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: and uh, there's mutual respect, Rick Shan about it's a

941
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 1: new world. You know, it wasn't so long ago, Eathan,

942
01:01:59,760 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 1: that if you mentioned the words psychedelic, you risk your career,

943
01:02:02,800 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: and certainly in academia. And now it's a worldwide conversation

944
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:10,440
Speaker 1: of we hope a great promise for new medicines. And

945
01:02:11,120 --> 01:02:14,520
Speaker 1: now this may or might not occur, that's entirely another conversation,

946
01:02:14,600 --> 01:02:18,640
Speaker 1: but things look very promising. So it's a type of

947
01:02:18,680 --> 01:02:26,040
Speaker 1: reaffirmation and redemption and helps forget all the suffering. M hm. Well,

948
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: so let me ask you about this, this new focus

949
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: of your life, because I mean, look, quite frankly, almost

950
01:02:31,640 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: entirely because of you, it's possible that I may soon

951
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:37,240
Speaker 1: become an advisor for the first time in my life

952
01:02:37,280 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: to a for profit investment fund that's investing in a

953
01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,840
Speaker 1: host of psychedelic enterprises. And so I think you and

954
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: I probably share the kind of both worries and hopes

955
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,919
Speaker 1: of this. I mean, not just the the incredible work

956
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,760
Speaker 1: that's been sponsored by MAPS, you know, Rick Doblin's Multi

957
01:02:52,800 --> 01:02:55,120
Speaker 1: Disparity Association of Psychelic Studies, you know all it's a

958
01:02:55,160 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 1: wonderful work on m d m A and public education

959
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 1: and all of that, and the Heftress Society, the group

960
01:03:00,800 --> 01:03:03,480
Speaker 1: of academics who have been involved in this research for

961
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,200
Speaker 1: a few decades or more now, but now with the

962
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:10,640
Speaker 1: whole growth of the commercialized for profit side, which seems

963
01:03:10,680 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 1: to hold the potential to provide the hundreds of millions

964
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 1: of dollars in funding that could not be raised philanthropically

965
01:03:17,160 --> 01:03:20,280
Speaker 1: and therefore is expediting the whole evolution. And yet on

966
01:03:20,280 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 1: the other hand, it involves commercialization and as you said,

967
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 1: the risk that this will be taken in the wrong

968
01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:29,840
Speaker 1: direction by companies that are seeking to maximize profit by

969
01:03:29,880 --> 01:03:33,600
Speaker 1: you know, securing patents and excluding others, or by manufacturers

970
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:36,240
Speaker 1: who don't really care about the special properties what they're producing,

971
01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:39,560
Speaker 1: but only the market potential. You know what's going on

972
01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: now from your perspective, I mean, is this really a

973
01:03:42,760 --> 01:03:45,680
Speaker 1: bubble that's gonna burst and it'll just be a small

974
01:03:45,760 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: number of players left? Is the reason why the psilocybin

975
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,480
Speaker 1: thing is looming so large now in M D M A.

976
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:54,640
Speaker 1: But are we going to see more stuff with mescalin

977
01:03:55,160 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: and LSD down the road? Um? Do you think it

978
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 1: really will replace you know, the SSR eyes or other

979
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: you know substances. You know, pharmaceuticals that are taken daily

980
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:07,480
Speaker 1: by large numbers of people and make you know, pharmacy

981
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 1: companies vast profits, but with you know, only modest efficacy.

982
01:04:11,080 --> 01:04:13,880
Speaker 1: So I just thrown three different sorts of questions about

983
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: the future. But take a swing at any one of

984
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,000
Speaker 1: those you care too. Oh, my goodness, that's quite a

985
01:04:19,040 --> 01:04:22,160
Speaker 1: breath of questions. Let me go back to say how

986
01:04:22,200 --> 01:04:24,960
Speaker 1: much you admire the work of Rick Doblin with MAPS.

987
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: I was privileged to be at Rick's PhD thesis defense

988
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 1: at the Kennedy School. Uh, I can no goodness ninety

989
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,439
Speaker 1: six and uh have come to admire the great work

990
01:04:35,480 --> 01:04:39,440
Speaker 1: done by MAPS and by the Hefter Foundation. Dr David Nichols,

991
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:42,840
Speaker 1: the foremost medicinal chemists in the world, was an early

992
01:04:42,960 --> 01:04:48,440
Speaker 1: founder tremendous early and visionary work, and both those organizations

993
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:53,160
Speaker 1: were formed in days where the specter of psychedelic drugs

994
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: being used for healings was marginalized, if not ridiculed. So

995
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 1: it took quite a bit courage of Rick and Dr

996
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:06,800
Speaker 1: Nichols to act upon their vision, often at the possibility

997
01:05:06,800 --> 01:05:10,080
Speaker 1: of the wrong direction of their careers. But now it's

998
01:05:10,360 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 1: all come round And here we are, with over three

999
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:20,200
Speaker 1: corporations in counting now formed, some valued at a billion dollars.

1000
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:26,320
Speaker 1: Compas Pathways, a tie cybin mind med all evolving out

1001
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:30,640
Speaker 1: of effectively the twenty fifteen publication The Journal of psycho

1002
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: Pharmacology by Roland Griffiths at Hopkins the Study of Psilocybin

1003
01:05:36,480 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: and Depression, and Rick's early faith that m d M

1004
01:05:41,040 --> 01:05:44,840
Speaker 1: A would be useful for PTSD. And here we are.

1005
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 1: Are we in a bubble? Of course, I'm a rather

1006
01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:54,560
Speaker 1: elderly and devoted hippie who might proselytize. Even so, I

1007
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:58,400
Speaker 1: think that we're in a time of tremendous enthusiasm, perhaps

1008
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,240
Speaker 1: a little too much in phusiasm, in the sense that, um,

1009
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,680
Speaker 1: you have a core of true believers that hope that

1010
01:06:06,760 --> 01:06:12,080
Speaker 1: these drugs will be useful for various psychiatric illnesses, and

1011
01:06:12,120 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: indeed they're powerful, and indeed they may and the results

1012
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 1: seem very promising. But I see an enthusiasm that perhaps

1013
01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:24,440
Speaker 1: is too broad. These compounds are not a panacea for

1014
01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:29,320
Speaker 1: all known maladies, but the corportization. In the corporization field,

1015
01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:36,640
Speaker 1: we see, um, every known psychedelic being promoted. Salvan orn

1016
01:06:36,640 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: A fiber toxic d MT, mascular psilocybin slosion, every analog

1017
01:06:42,640 --> 01:06:48,240
Speaker 1: ketamine clinics are popping up worldwide. It's all happening, all

1018
01:06:48,280 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: at once, billions of dollars, hundreds, if not thousands of

1019
01:06:53,160 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: chemists and psychiatrists and neuroscientists all focusing in this field.

1020
01:06:58,160 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: A milestone was reached the other day a by Francis Collins,

1021
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: director of the National Institutions of Health, truly eminent and

1022
01:07:06,680 --> 01:07:12,280
Speaker 1: conservative leading figurehead, who said psychedelics may well be useful.

1023
01:07:13,280 --> 01:07:17,160
Speaker 1: So looking carefully at a number of pitch decks each

1024
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:21,080
Speaker 1: week that come across my desk and seeing the range

1025
01:07:21,480 --> 01:07:26,920
Speaker 1: of new founders and ideas. Some are not strongly scientifically supported,

1026
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: others are true gems and may become major major institutions.

1027
01:07:33,440 --> 01:07:35,200
Speaker 1: That all said, I do feel that we're in a

1028
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 1: classic bubble stock wise, and that within the next two

1029
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,160
Speaker 1: or three years it probably will be a shakeout. Depending

1030
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: upon the outcomes of the initial clinical trials. MAPS will

1031
01:07:47,400 --> 01:07:51,080
Speaker 1: report first on m b m A, followed by mind

1032
01:07:51,120 --> 01:07:55,040
Speaker 1: med Syban Paul cybin. The outcomes of these trials, which

1033
01:07:55,080 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: are self reported by the sponsoring corporation and must be

1034
01:07:58,520 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: by federal law, may define the industry. A trial that

1035
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:07,080
Speaker 1: goes south will deflate valuations. Trial that is promising in

1036
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,720
Speaker 1: phase two will enhance valuations. But keep in mind, across

1037
01:08:11,760 --> 01:08:17,960
Speaker 1: pharmaceuticals and their entirety, even antibiotics, only fourteen percent of

1038
01:08:18,040 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 1: new drugs are approved by f d A. I suspect

1039
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 1: that psychedelics will receive no less scrutiny than any drug,

1040
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: and perhaps far more so. We had better be right,

1041
01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:33,479
Speaker 1: and I think in some cases, h we are right.

1042
01:08:34,200 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 1: But folks, hold under your head. We're in the wild

1043
01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,479
Speaker 1: West and the next few years is going to be

1044
01:08:38,600 --> 01:08:42,439
Speaker 1: quite a ride. Yeah. Well, Leonard, you know, back in

1045
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:45,880
Speaker 1: your days of freedom in the nineties and you cut

1046
01:08:45,920 --> 01:08:50,280
Speaker 1: your master's degree to Kennedy School. Uh, you worked with

1047
01:08:50,320 --> 01:08:52,760
Speaker 1: an academic, Mark Leman, who was a devoted friend of

1048
01:08:52,760 --> 01:08:55,080
Speaker 1: yours and a bit of a friend of me of mine. Um.

1049
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,880
Speaker 1: But you know, you wrote a brilliant paper about fentinel

1050
01:08:58,360 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 1: at a time when few people knew it was and

1051
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:04,519
Speaker 1: you correctly predicted that this could potentially become a great

1052
01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:07,559
Speaker 1: threat to public health. And you missed a bit by

1053
01:09:07,560 --> 01:09:09,720
Speaker 1: thinking that it might be Russia that would emerge as

1054
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:12,479
Speaker 1: a major source rather than China. But I'm curious bringing

1055
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:15,600
Speaker 1: back the psychelics area. Does China have a feature in

1056
01:09:15,640 --> 01:09:18,439
Speaker 1: this psychedelics area? I mean, you see them playing this

1057
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:21,240
Speaker 1: role kind of illegally on the fenital thing. You see

1058
01:09:21,240 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 1: them playing a role as a pioneer on some of

1059
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:26,600
Speaker 1: the e cigarette stuff for better and worse. What about psychedelics?

1060
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:31,479
Speaker 1: How interesting you should ask that ethan UH. China, of course,

1061
01:09:31,520 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: has the world's largest pharmaceutical industry fifty thousand or so firms,

1062
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:43,400
Speaker 1: and its rather loosely regulated, hence the rather grave influx

1063
01:09:43,439 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: of every known analog of fentanyl into Europe. Some are

1064
01:09:47,720 --> 01:09:50,519
Speaker 1: quite impotent, you know, four thousand times the ponency of

1065
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 1: morphine UH, and China, of course is the primary source country,

1066
01:09:54,439 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: although Mexico, certain Mexican labs have been devastating in terms

1067
01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:03,439
Speaker 1: of the ethality of their production. It's it's difficult to

1068
01:10:03,479 --> 01:10:08,840
Speaker 1: answer your question on that ethan. Has China wakened the psychedelics? No,

1069
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:14,040
Speaker 1: it has not. UM. I keep a spreadsheet of UM

1070
01:10:14,080 --> 01:10:19,519
Speaker 1: every known startup I can find over three and nothing

1071
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:24,439
Speaker 1: coming out of China. A few Japanese pharmacutical firms are

1072
01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 1: looking somewhat at isomers of ketamine, but China remains the

1073
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:35,640
Speaker 1: sleeping giant. I feel that it would be wise of

1074
01:10:35,760 --> 01:10:40,040
Speaker 1: activists in this field, especially the corporate figures, to reach

1075
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:45,000
Speaker 1: out to Chinese venture capital firms and attempt to engage

1076
01:10:45,040 --> 01:10:48,320
Speaker 1: them and excite them UH into this realm. I think

1077
01:10:48,320 --> 01:10:51,679
Speaker 1: that additional billions will flow into research if we managed

1078
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,200
Speaker 1: to do that. Johnah being very conservative, having no broad

1079
01:10:55,320 --> 01:10:58,400
Speaker 1: underground as we do in the States. In Europe, there

1080
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:01,120
Speaker 1: was no Brotherhood of Eatun in Love in the sixties

1081
01:11:01,400 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 1: putting out tens of millions of doses, So they have

1082
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:08,800
Speaker 1: no mature investors who had dazzling insights around campfires in

1083
01:11:08,840 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 1: their youth. There's no Chinese versions of our San Francisco

1084
01:11:13,200 --> 01:11:16,760
Speaker 1: young billionaires, but those of us that have Chinese connections,

1085
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:20,360
Speaker 1: I'm looking at the direction personally, UH might do well

1086
01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 1: to try for a clinical trial and Shendong Province or

1087
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 1: or Beijing or Hong Kong and gently awakened the Chinese

1088
01:11:30,280 --> 01:11:32,840
Speaker 1: to this as part of the oral community. Yeah, well,

1089
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,160
Speaker 1: I'm interesting to see. I think China. The Chinese government

1090
01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 1: played a sort of leading role a few years ago

1091
01:11:37,479 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: in a very bad way and trying to ban the

1092
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 1: use of kenamine more broadly, uh. You know much of

1093
01:11:42,840 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: the world kenemine is used for pain relief where opioids

1094
01:11:45,280 --> 01:11:47,519
Speaker 1: are not available. But let let me finish with one

1095
01:11:47,680 --> 01:11:53,400
Speaker 1: last question. So as all of these news psychedelic compounds

1096
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:56,880
Speaker 1: are being created by changing a molecule here and there,

1097
01:11:57,360 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 1: um and sometimes not psychedelic compounds as well, is there

1098
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:03,120
Speaker 1: anything out there on the horizon that you think shows

1099
01:12:03,600 --> 01:12:07,080
Speaker 1: really exceptional interests that would take matters beyond where we

1100
01:12:07,160 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 1: have with m D, M A LSD the basics that

1101
01:12:10,160 --> 01:12:12,719
Speaker 1: are out there, are there new compounds that you're aware

1102
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:15,639
Speaker 1: of that could land up being approved or show Greek

1103
01:12:15,680 --> 01:12:18,479
Speaker 1: potential in one way or another. Well, keep in mind

1104
01:12:18,479 --> 01:12:23,440
Speaker 1: that ethan with the corporatization which has stimulated enormous advances

1105
01:12:23,479 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 1: and intensity of new medicinal chemists working feverishly at their

1106
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: benches with novel methods of invention and manufacturer. With this

1107
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 1: huge um illicit activity going on now, we are seeing

1108
01:12:38,760 --> 01:12:42,639
Speaker 1: historically for the first time, the advent of tens of thousands,

1109
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:47,040
Speaker 1: of hundreds of thousands of molecular variants. These generally in

1110
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:50,600
Speaker 1: previous years twenty years ago would be published in the

1111
01:12:50,640 --> 01:12:55,320
Speaker 1: scientific journals for everyone to see. But with the corportization.

1112
01:12:55,439 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: Such things are proprietary, I'm told every week, even under

1113
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:02,000
Speaker 1: nondisclosure E meant that, oh, I'm sorry, we can't share

1114
01:13:02,040 --> 01:13:08,080
Speaker 1: our patent application. So the work is becoming oddly clandestine.

1115
01:13:08,160 --> 01:13:12,679
Speaker 1: Yet again, uh that all said, since I can't point

1116
01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: any specific compound, I can say with some confidence that

1117
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:22,599
Speaker 1: we will see a variety of new creatures appear. Most

1118
01:13:22,640 --> 01:13:25,600
Speaker 1: of these new creatures will be not very interesting, a

1119
01:13:25,600 --> 01:13:29,839
Speaker 1: psychedelic wash show of buzz if you will, uh somewhat

1120
01:13:29,920 --> 01:13:36,800
Speaker 1: change of consciousness. Some will be, hopefully most precious. They

1121
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:42,320
Speaker 1: will resolve post traumatic disorders. They may resolve postpartum depression,

1122
01:13:43,080 --> 01:13:47,400
Speaker 1: may resolve certain types of anxiety. They may replace parts

1123
01:13:47,439 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: of pharmacopeia, or they may replace certain types of ss rs.

1124
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:54,360
Speaker 1: Although that's quite a reach to say that. But the

1125
01:13:54,439 --> 01:13:58,800
Speaker 1: fear I have is that within this great generation of

1126
01:13:59,080 --> 01:14:05,080
Speaker 1: new creatures, some may be rather difficult little beast and

1127
01:14:05,200 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: proved to be quite addictive or quite lethal. Um. We've

1128
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,000
Speaker 1: already seen an example of this um coming out of

1129
01:14:14,040 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: the Free University of Berlin back about two thousand six,

1130
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 1: a post TALC. There was Tinkering, one of Sasa's variations

1131
01:14:21,280 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: on his remarkable drug to c B, which is a

1132
01:14:24,280 --> 01:14:30,120
Speaker 1: worldwide recreational compound now, and this fellow, a decent researcher exploring,

1133
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:33,680
Speaker 1: did a series of modifications and he came up with

1134
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,240
Speaker 1: something called, for lack of a better chemical name, in

1135
01:14:37,560 --> 01:14:40,720
Speaker 1: the bomb. And in bomb turned out to be a

1136
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 1: psychedelic very potent about oh eight micrograms as potent as LSD,

1137
01:14:46,840 --> 01:14:51,000
Speaker 1: and so this was immediately seized upon by hasty underground

1138
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:55,559
Speaker 1: people and distributed as LSD. The problem was and it

1139
01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:59,000
Speaker 1: was quite lethal. There were a number of deaths. So

1140
01:15:00,080 --> 01:15:03,840
Speaker 1: my fear is that within this great search and great

1141
01:15:03,840 --> 01:15:09,920
Speaker 1: discovery of thousands and thousands of quite remarkable compounds, we'll

1142
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,080
Speaker 1: see it go both ways. We may see a new

1143
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:15,600
Speaker 1: drug that will sweep the world and as a positive

1144
01:15:15,640 --> 01:15:20,320
Speaker 1: benefit upon humanity, ranging for medical use to personal seeking,

1145
01:15:20,360 --> 01:15:23,479
Speaker 1: if you will, and it may replace in large part

1146
01:15:23,520 --> 01:15:27,240
Speaker 1: the legacy compounds LSD, D MT, mescalin, psilocybin. But I

1147
01:15:27,280 --> 01:15:30,960
Speaker 1: think along with that we may also see some some

1148
01:15:31,080 --> 01:15:35,400
Speaker 1: most unfortunate things occur. Yes, it's a responsibility in the

1149
01:15:35,439 --> 01:15:42,280
Speaker 1: psychedelic community to suppress one and promote the other. I mean, so, Leonard,

1150
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:46,599
Speaker 1: when you were allegedly involved in production and certainly involved

1151
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:49,759
Speaker 1: in this world and his brotherhood. What was your thinking

1152
01:15:49,800 --> 01:15:53,040
Speaker 1: about about the broader consequences. I mean, did you basically

1153
01:15:53,160 --> 01:15:56,640
Speaker 1: see the use of LSD by millions or tens of

1154
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: millions of people as a generally positive thing, notwithstanding the

1155
01:16:00,080 --> 01:16:02,439
Speaker 1: risks um And then when you you know, fast forward

1156
01:16:02,439 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: to today, we are a lot of this is moving

1157
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: forward in this kind of medical research environment, even as

1158
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,720
Speaker 1: larger and larger numbers of people are doing it outside

1159
01:16:10,720 --> 01:16:14,200
Speaker 1: that setting. What is your thinking it hopes these will

1160
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:18,240
Speaker 1: be the whole endgame of this. That's a difficult question, Nathan.

1161
01:16:18,320 --> 01:16:22,799
Speaker 1: I think back to our thinking as very young people

1162
01:16:22,800 --> 01:16:27,760
Speaker 1: in the sixties, when we were three. The young people

1163
01:16:27,760 --> 01:16:32,400
Speaker 1: of the era had great hope that the insights provided

1164
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:38,439
Speaker 1: by these compounds would alter society and benevolent ways, to

1165
01:16:38,520 --> 01:16:47,040
Speaker 1: become less militaristic, less unaware of the environment, more aware

1166
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:50,960
Speaker 1: of each other, to be delighted by the gifts of

1167
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:54,759
Speaker 1: the mind. And then over the years I saw people

1168
01:16:54,800 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 1: being lost in different things, lost in methamphetamine and heroin

1169
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 1: addiction and cocaine addiction, all those malaises that went on forever.

1170
01:17:02,760 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 1: And I saw those horrors quite close up and deaths

1171
01:17:06,040 --> 01:17:11,599
Speaker 1: from them, and so I often remark when when so asked,

1172
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:16,080
Speaker 1: is it best that everybody take LSD? I would say no.

1173
01:17:16,240 --> 01:17:20,040
Speaker 1: I think LSD or any psychedelic is only for a

1174
01:17:20,120 --> 01:17:23,439
Speaker 1: certain section of the population. May be a minority of

1175
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:28,080
Speaker 1: the population. It's for some people, but not everyone. In

1176
01:17:28,200 --> 01:17:30,720
Speaker 1: terms of the many analogs proliferating and the tendency of

1177
01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,360
Speaker 1: young people to try every known drug in the book

1178
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 1: available freely online these days, I would say that we

1179
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:41,479
Speaker 1: should remember that after all our explorations, we have to

1180
01:17:41,479 --> 01:17:45,000
Speaker 1: come home. We have to come home to the natural mind,

1181
01:17:46,000 --> 01:17:48,640
Speaker 1: the place where we began as young people, before we

1182
01:17:48,680 --> 01:17:54,719
Speaker 1: had exposure to these substances or to extreme experiences, the simple,

1183
01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 1: pure place that as our ultimate gift, that which we

1184
01:17:59,840 --> 01:18:06,240
Speaker 1: be and from and with luck and vision will return too.

1185
01:18:07,600 --> 01:18:10,120
Speaker 1: So I think that after all of the expirations and

1186
01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:15,439
Speaker 1: all the corporatizations, on all the excitement, that we simply

1187
01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:20,960
Speaker 1: remember to to come home in the natural mind. Mm hmm, Well,

1188
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 1: Leonard Um, let's just hope that the spirit that animated

1189
01:18:24,240 --> 01:18:27,799
Speaker 1: you and others allegedly involved in the Brotherhood of Underground

1190
01:18:27,880 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 1: Chemists continues to infuse the field of research in this

1191
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:34,160
Speaker 1: area into the future. I want to thank you ever

1192
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:37,559
Speaker 1: so much for being my guest today. It's been a

1193
01:18:37,560 --> 01:18:39,720
Speaker 1: pleasure to connect with you in recent months, and I

1194
01:18:39,760 --> 01:18:43,719
Speaker 1: look forward to our future intersections with every greater frequency

1195
01:18:43,720 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 1: in the future. So thank you, very very very much.

1196
01:18:46,840 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Ethan. Wonderful to see you again.

1197
01:18:49,320 --> 01:18:54,439
Speaker 1: I look forward to many future conversations. Psychoactive is a

1198
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio and Protozoa Pictures. It's hosted

1199
01:18:58,040 --> 01:19:01,360
Speaker 1: by me Ethan Needelman. It's produce used by Katcha Kumkova

1200
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,960
Speaker 1: and Ben Cabrick. The executive producers are Dylan Golden, Ari Handel,

1201
01:19:06,120 --> 01:19:10,640
Speaker 1: Elizabeth Geesus and Darren Aronovski for Protozoa Pictures, Alice Williams

1202
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,000
Speaker 1: and Matt Frederick for I Heart Radio and me Ethan Nadelman.

1203
01:19:14,280 --> 01:19:17,679
Speaker 1: Our music is by Ari Belusian and a special thanks

1204
01:19:17,680 --> 01:19:22,000
Speaker 1: to a Vivit Brio, Sef Bianca Grimshaw and Robert Beatty.

1205
01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:25,240
Speaker 1: If you'd like to share your own stories, comments or ideas,

1206
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:28,920
Speaker 1: please leave us a message at eight three three seven

1207
01:19:28,960 --> 01:19:36,040
Speaker 1: seven nine sixty. That's one eight three three psycho zero.

1208
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:40,320
Speaker 1: You can also email us as Psychoactive at Protozoa dot

1209
01:19:40,320 --> 01:19:43,680
Speaker 1: com or find me on Twitter at Ethan Nadelman. And

1210
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 1: if you couldn't keep track of all this, find the

1211
01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:53,320
Speaker 1: information in the show notes. So next week we're gonna

1212
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 1: do something different. I'll have my old friend and drug

1213
01:19:56,760 --> 01:20:00,879
Speaker 1: expert Dr Julie Holland joined me in and towering questions

1214
01:20:01,040 --> 01:20:03,680
Speaker 1: from you, the audience. I don't have to pee in

1215
01:20:03,720 --> 01:20:06,080
Speaker 1: a cup to talk to you, do I, Ethan? Oh? Well,

1216
01:20:06,120 --> 01:20:07,640
Speaker 1: you know people used to say if you wanted a

1217
01:20:07,720 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 1: job at Drug Policy Alliance, you needed to fail a

1218
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:15,120
Speaker 1: drug test, but that was never true. Subscribe to Cycleactive now,

1219
01:20:15,240 --> 01:20:16,040
Speaker 1: see it, don't miss it.