1 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,680 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: Two children dead murdered in their own home. 3 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 3: The mother and a third child attacked and rushed to 4 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:25,280 Speaker 3: the hospital. 5 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 2: What happened the. 6 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:34,600 Speaker 3: Curious case of the Colorado murders. I'm Nancy Grace. This 7 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 3: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here 8 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:39,040 Speaker 3: at Crime Stories and on sirius. 9 00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 2: XM one eleven. What happened? Take a listen to our 10 00:00:44,080 --> 00:00:45,320 Speaker 2: friend Sydney Summer. 11 00:00:45,560 --> 00:00:48,600 Speaker 4: Just after midnight, Kimberly Singler, thirty five, calls nine to 12 00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:51,640 Speaker 4: one one to report a homebreak in. She tells police 13 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 4: that two of her children have been murdered. The police 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 4: response report says officers found an adult female and an 15 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,639 Speaker 4: eleven year old female who had sustained injuries, as well 16 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:02,480 Speaker 4: as a nine year old girl and a seven year 17 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 4: old boy who were deceased at the scene. Singler's third child, 18 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 4: the eleven year old daughter, was transported to a local 19 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 4: hospital for treatment. She is hospitalized. Singler is also treated 20 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:17,720 Speaker 4: for injuries. As police investigate the reported burglary. Singler works 21 00:01:17,720 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 4: with officers giving statements about what happened. 22 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,040 Speaker 2: This is what we know right now to dad. 23 00:01:23,240 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 3: The third child and the mother rushed to the hospital 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:29,960 Speaker 3: Heather Scold is joining us out of Colorado Springs. KRT 25 00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:34,400 Speaker 3: DO thirteen anchor and reporter, Heather, thank you so much 26 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 3: for being with us. Tell me what happened when that 27 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 3: nine to one one call was Meg. 28 00:01:39,840 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 2: You're telling me the mother call nine one one. 29 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 5: That is right on December nineteenth, at twelve twenty nine am, 30 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 5: a nine one one le came in as a burglary. 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 5: This is to where Singler lived with her three children. 32 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 5: This is this fifty three hundred block of Palomino Ranch 33 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 5: Point Condos that's on the east side of Colorado Springs. 34 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 5: I wouldn't say it's a wealthy side of town that 35 00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:06,279 Speaker 5: these condos in particular, I would say are very nice 36 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 5: for that region. Once officers got there, they discovered that 37 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,079 Speaker 5: a nine year old girl and a seven year old 38 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 5: boy were dead, and eleven year old girl was also injured, 39 00:02:18,800 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 5: and thirty five year old Kimberly Singler was also injured. 40 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,600 Speaker 2: Describe for me, Heather, if you know. 41 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 3: Joining me is Heather Skull from k RD there in 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:33,400 Speaker 3: Colorado Springs. Heather described from me, I looked very carefully 43 00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 3: at the condo. 44 00:02:35,720 --> 00:02:38,720 Speaker 2: Development. They look really nice. 45 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:43,440 Speaker 3: There are two stories, so there is a downstairs entry, 46 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:47,680 Speaker 3: and many of them have balconies on the second floor, 47 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 3: and they have little porches, and some of them have 48 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 3: sliding glass doors on the first door. 49 00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: So do we know yet the point of entry? 50 00:02:56,480 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 5: Yes, no, the point of entry remains a question. That 51 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:04,400 Speaker 5: initial burglary call that we just spoke about came in 52 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 5: the early morning hours of December nineteenth. Officers are writing 53 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:14,079 Speaker 5: there to find two dead children, a eleven year old 54 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 5: female one of the daughters was also injured, and three 55 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:20,799 Speaker 5: five year old Kimberly Singler was also hurt. 56 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:26,320 Speaker 3: So this is my first question out to Eric Fattus 57 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 3: joining me, high profile lawyer in the Colorado jurisdiction. You 58 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 3: can find him at varnerfattust dot com. Eric, thank you 59 00:03:33,960 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 3: for being with us. The first thing you do is 60 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 3: look for of course, once you attend to the bodies, 61 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:43,400 Speaker 3: you try to find how the person got in. Would 62 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 3: you agree or disagree? 63 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 6: It's exactly right, Nancy. That is the hallmark of the 64 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,480 Speaker 6: crime of burglary in most circumstances, so I'm sure police 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 6: that was one of the first things on their agenda. 66 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 6: After attending to the victims, Like you mentioned. 67 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 3: Now, police began to investigate do we know, Heather, whether 68 00:04:00,000 --> 00:04:03,840 Speaker 3: the children are found upstairs or downstairs? And again, as 69 00:04:03,880 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 3: you pointed out correctly twelve twenty nine Am, I'm assuming 70 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:11,040 Speaker 3: that all three children were attacked in their beds. 71 00:04:11,400 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 5: We don't know the details of what happened inside that 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 5: condo unit at all. 73 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 3: Also to Heather Skull joining USKR do thirteen have we 74 00:04:20,200 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: been given a cause of death of the children? 75 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 5: Actually, Nancy, we don't have details as to what happened 76 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 5: that night. 77 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 3: So right now the police are playing it very close 78 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:33,479 Speaker 3: to the vest I want to go to doctor Angela 79 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:37,039 Speaker 3: Arnold joining me renowned psychiatrists out of the Atlanta jurisdiction. 80 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,200 Speaker 3: You can find her at angela Arnold MD dot com 81 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:42,240 Speaker 3: doctor Angie. 82 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:44,400 Speaker 2: When children are killed. 83 00:04:45,680 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: Very often, and of course there are exceptions to every rule, 84 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 3: very often you don't see the child disfigured, such as 85 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 3: in a stabbing or a shooting, has it happened, yes 86 00:04:59,360 --> 00:04:59,800 Speaker 3: it has? 87 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 2: Is it typical? 88 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 7: No? 89 00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:06,479 Speaker 2: It is not. And the mode of death is very 90 00:05:06,520 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 2: indicative and tells me a lot about who the killer is. 91 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 2: For instance, we. 92 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 3: Know although she was acquitted, that top mom Casey Anthony 93 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 3: killed her daughter Kelly. To your old Kelly. How not sure, 94 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:23,960 Speaker 3: but we know that Kelly was disposed of in a 95 00:05:24,040 --> 00:05:27,479 Speaker 3: swampy area about ten houses away from the Anthony home 96 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,120 Speaker 3: with her favorite blank kicks. 97 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 2: Now, what cold hearted killer. 98 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: Is going to go kill a child in a home 99 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 3: and then take the time to dispose of the body 100 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 3: with the child in the favorite blanket. Obviously the mother 101 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: someone that knows the favorite blanket, right. 102 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 2: So my point is that rarely do. 103 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:58,280 Speaker 3: We see the child the body disfigured as is with 104 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:05,719 Speaker 3: stabbing or or bludgeoning. When children are killed, normally they 105 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 3: are killed in a quote soft kill. If there is 106 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 3: any such thing, through asphyxiation putting. 107 00:06:12,200 --> 00:06:14,040 Speaker 2: A pillow over the child's head. 108 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 3: We saw that in the Shenan Watts case. Both of 109 00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 3: the girls were asphyxiated. We see it with many other 110 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 3: cases in the top Mom Casey Anthony case. I believe 111 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 3: Keelly was asphyxiated via duct tape and had very possibly 112 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 3: been given some kind of like a cough syrup or 113 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:44,640 Speaker 3: ben a drill, or some homemade medicine or some homemade 114 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,760 Speaker 3: substance that would have not her out. 115 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 2: Do you agree or disagree with that? 116 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 8: I agree with it, Nancy, And it's such It is 117 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 8: such a good point, and what it points out to 118 00:06:56,480 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 8: me is that this is not an act of hatred 119 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 8: towards the children. Something else is being accomplished here, but 120 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 8: it's not an act of they want to get these 121 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 8: people want to get rid of the child, but it 122 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 8: is not a direct act of anger or hatred or 123 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 8: rage towards the actual child. 124 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 3: Interesting, Okay, not rage towards the child. Of course, I'm 125 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 3: just a JD. You're the MD, but I completely disagree 126 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: with that. I think that the rage of for instance, 127 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 3: in top mom's case, over not being able to have 128 00:07:34,600 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 3: a single life, not be able to be free and wild, right, 129 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,480 Speaker 3: that was her anger, and what kept her from that 130 00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 3: was the child. 131 00:07:43,440 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 2: So that anger was directed at the child. 132 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 8: Well, I think the anger, Nancy. All I'm trying to 133 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,800 Speaker 8: say is there's anger there, but I know it's very strange. Okay, 134 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 8: but they still might actually love the child, but the 135 00:07:56,200 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 8: child is a representation of something is in the way, 136 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 8: of something that they can't have, so they feel like, okay, 137 00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 8: I'm going to dispose of the child. 138 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 2: Did you just say they love the child? 139 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 3: They could Okay, let's just cut her mic for a 140 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 3: few moments. Jackie plays Jackie over here, cut her mic 141 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 3: and give her a few moments to think about what 142 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 3: she has said. Heather Skold, two children did a third attack. 143 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 3: The mom attacked their rush to the hospital. But there 144 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 3: is a lot more leading up to this. So far, 145 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 3: we don't know the point of entry. We don't know 146 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,480 Speaker 3: the coeod cause of death, although I would hazard to 147 00:08:32,480 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 3: guess it is a soft killing. Doctor Airy Eason joining 148 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 3: us out of the Florida Jurisdiction Pathologist consultant, Doctor Eson, thank. 149 00:08:44,160 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 2: You for being with us in your experience. 150 00:08:47,800 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 3: Outside of accident or natural causes. When you're looking at 151 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:58,559 Speaker 3: a homicide in your experience and you've done thousands of autopsies, 152 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 3: what would you say the leading cod on a child? 153 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 9: In my experience, I've had all different kinds of them. 154 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 9: I've had a couple of gunshot wounds. I've had some 155 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 9: stab wound cases. I had a mother in South Carolina 156 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 9: actually take an axe two or two children. 157 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:18,360 Speaker 5: I've had. 158 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 9: Blunt porstrauma cases as well. The asphyxia ones are very 159 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:28,240 Speaker 9: tough to prove because autopsy findings on a child who 160 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 9: is smothered there aren't any very often, and so a 161 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 9: lot of those cases are probably going to end up 162 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:35,160 Speaker 9: this undetermined. 163 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 2: Wait, you wouldn't be able to find. 164 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 3: Hamorrhy's particia in the eye, or if there was a 165 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:48,160 Speaker 3: ligature manual strangulation, you couldn't find, for instance, a breaking 166 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: or damage to the hyoid bone, or fingerprints or some 167 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,800 Speaker 3: other discoloration around the neck well for a strangulation. 168 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 9: Sure like with the manual frangulation or ligerature strangular those 169 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 9: oftentimes do leave marks on the neck and you can 170 00:10:02,760 --> 00:10:04,839 Speaker 9: see the TATIQII. But I was talking more like the 171 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 9: like a plastic bag over the head something like that, 172 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 9: or just a smothering with a pillow. That's not going 173 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 9: to leave much of any kind of a mark, any 174 00:10:13,160 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 9: or any kind of internal autopsis. Finding about all truths 175 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 9: that it's a smothering. 176 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 3: Okay, what about the veins, the tiny tiny blood vessels 177 00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:25,920 Speaker 3: right in the nasal area and the eyes, as we're 178 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 3: saying particular, even with asphyxiation, with those bursts or hemorrhage. 179 00:10:29,840 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 9: Not necessarily, especially with the smothering. Those are going to 180 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 9: burst mainly when you have severe pressure on the neck. 181 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 9: And with the smothering like with a pillow or a 182 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:40,560 Speaker 9: plastid bag, there's really no pressure on the neck at 183 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 9: all that would cause that. 184 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 3: That's a really good point, doctor Eric Ason. So another 185 00:10:46,520 --> 00:10:48,439 Speaker 3: thing we can try. 186 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 2: To deduce is that we know the mother and the. 187 00:10:52,960 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 3: Child, the eleven year old girl, were rushed to the 188 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:59,120 Speaker 3: hospital where they stayed in the hospital, they were treated. 189 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 2: So how likely would it be? 190 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 3: Eric Fattus, former felony prosecutor and now criminal defense and 191 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:12,760 Speaker 3: civil lawyer, Eric Fattus, I know for us that serial 192 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 3: killers can change their moo, look at Ted Bundy. But 193 00:11:17,080 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 3: if you're going in and you're killing everybody in the house, 194 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 3: how likely is it that you would stab. 195 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: One, want to strangle one. 196 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 3: We know that the mother and the daughter, the eleven 197 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 3: year old daughter, are alive, but we're injured. 198 00:11:30,920 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 2: So wouldn't you be able to deduce, Eric Fattus, that 199 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,840 Speaker 2: the same was used on them as the two dead children. 200 00:11:37,920 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 6: Yes, no, exactly. You would expect the killer to use 201 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:45,880 Speaker 6: either the same weapon or the same you know, violent 202 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 6: approach to each potential victim. And that's why there's kind 203 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 6: of a mystery here because at least one of these victims, 204 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 6: the eleven year old child, is still. 205 00:11:54,840 --> 00:11:56,920 Speaker 2: A lot and the mother, so how long. 206 00:11:57,280 --> 00:11:59,440 Speaker 3: But we know Eric fattus and so far, I be 207 00:11:59,520 --> 00:12:02,439 Speaker 3: with everything you just said, But we also know that 208 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,160 Speaker 3: they were kept in the hospital for a period of days. 209 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 3: So if they had been asphyxiated to any degree, why 210 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:11,559 Speaker 3: do they have to stay overnight? 211 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 10: That would be really unusual. 212 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:15,839 Speaker 3: They don't have any broken bones, right, so that rules 213 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:21,160 Speaker 3: out asphyxiation. Along this line of thinking, what do you think, Eric, I'm. 214 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,320 Speaker 6: With you on that, Nancy. You know we need to 215 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:27,000 Speaker 6: look at once it's disclosed, the injuries from the two 216 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:31,320 Speaker 6: deceased children and compare those with injuries to the eleven 217 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:32,679 Speaker 6: year old child who live. 218 00:12:32,679 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: And the mother. 219 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: And Guys, we're throwing this around the way that we 220 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,200 Speaker 3: are because this is all of our business. And I 221 00:12:41,240 --> 00:12:45,120 Speaker 3: want to remind everybody that Aiden Wentz was just seven 222 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:48,439 Speaker 3: years old when he was murdered. 223 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 2: And you know what popped up on my phone? 224 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,680 Speaker 3: I have take literally thousands and thousands and thousands of 225 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 3: pictures of the twins, my children on the phone, and 226 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,560 Speaker 3: every day little video montage pops up. 227 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 2: Should we let doctor Angie out of time out? 228 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 3: Okay, doctor Angie, that's one of my favorite things. 229 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 2: And I don't really even know how they're generated. Oh 230 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 2: I know, every day. I love those and they put 231 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:18,599 Speaker 2: them to music. 232 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 8: When they give you a memory. 233 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:22,839 Speaker 3: Yes, and there's like a video montage and one popped 234 00:13:22,880 --> 00:13:25,120 Speaker 3: up today of the twins when they were seven, and 235 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 3: they look so tiny, and they were so tiny. 236 00:13:29,600 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 2: My son's six foot five now, my daughter's five to three. 237 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 8: Nancy, how did you have a six foot five child? 238 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 3: That? 239 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 8: I wonder that every day. 240 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: Of my life. 241 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,839 Speaker 3: My dad was six three and my husband's sixty four, 242 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 3: dear Lord. And the rest is all to whole milk, 243 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 3: organic and broccoli. In fact, I make broccoli so often 244 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 3: they have a pet name for it, brogel at Aiden 245 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 3: Wentz seven years old. When that little boy was murdered, 246 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 3: Ellie Ellianna Wentz nine, I just gave myself chill bumps 247 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 3: because I love the twins so much. In thinking about 248 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:14,679 Speaker 3: someone coming in and killing a nine year old girl 249 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 3: and a seven year old boy in their beds, we 250 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:26,680 Speaker 3: think before Christmas of all days. 251 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: I'm still trying to get my head wrapped around that. 252 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,600 Speaker 3: But back, let's let let's go back to doing something 253 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 3: to help pushed his face this case forward? 254 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 2: What do we know about leading up to that night? 255 00:14:40,360 --> 00:14:44,880 Speaker 3: Twelve twenty nine, eight m take a listen to our 256 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 3: friend Dave Mack. 257 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,640 Speaker 11: As police investigate the deaths of Singler's two young children, 258 00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 11: they uncovered an ongoing legal battle between the mom and 259 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 11: he rex husband, Kevin Wentz. The couple fought over parenting styles, visitation, custody, 260 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 11: and more. Whence's attorney says the contingentus divorce and custody 261 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:04,880 Speaker 11: dispute has been going on for over five years. Just 262 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 11: three months ago, Kimberly Singler filed a request for a 263 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 11: temporary protection order in El Paso County. She claims Kevin 264 00:15:11,760 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 11: Wentz waved a knife at her. Wins denies the allegations. 265 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 11: Two months later, in a different jurisdiction, a Larimer County 266 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,640 Speaker 11: court held a hearing on Singlar's emergency motion to restrict 267 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,080 Speaker 11: parenting time over the same allegations about the knife. The 268 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 11: court rescinded the order, finding there was no imminent threat 269 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 11: from Wins. 270 00:15:28,880 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 3: Trying to make sense of what I just heard. Joining 271 00:15:32,440 --> 00:15:37,680 Speaker 3: me is Heather Scold k RD thirteen anchor and reporter 272 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: in Colorado Springs, including this area. Heather, that was a mouthful, 273 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: But what I take away and regular people taught is 274 00:15:48,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 3: that the mother Kimberly Singler filed an action against her 275 00:15:54,320 --> 00:16:01,040 Speaker 3: ex after a long running custody battle. And the way 276 00:16:01,800 --> 00:16:05,360 Speaker 3: I can make it out is the divorced slash custody 277 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 3: battle started when Aiden was two years old, but she 278 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 3: claimed he the husband, waved a knife at her, and 279 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 3: then she went on in another jurisdiction, Larimer County, to 280 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 3: get an order giving her soul guardianship over the children 281 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:32,120 Speaker 3: based on the same alleged incident, and that judge said 282 00:16:32,320 --> 00:16:35,320 Speaker 3: there was no threat from the husband and did not 283 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 3: grant her request. 284 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 2: Did I state that accurately? So? 285 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 5: Yes, it would appear as though the couple was at 286 00:16:42,760 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 5: least had relations in Larimer County, which is on the 287 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 5: northern part of Colorado, about three hours away here from 288 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 5: Colorado Springs. 289 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 3: Okay, when you say they had relations, are you talking 290 00:16:53,640 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 3: about sex relations or contacts that. 291 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 2: Would allow jurisdiction? 292 00:16:57,640 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 5: Co'ntacting? 293 00:16:58,240 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: Right? Okay, go ahead. 294 00:16:59,400 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 6: Correct. 295 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 5: They filed for divorce in twenty eighteen and it was 296 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 5: finalized in twenty twenty, but it went through a four 297 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 5: year long custody battle over these three young children. And 298 00:17:12,320 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 5: you're right in that there were multiple allegations and accusations 299 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 5: from Singler to WinCE, the ex husband, Kevin Wentz, and 300 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 5: most recently, and you reference this September nine, eighteenth rather 301 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 5: twenty twenty three. That's when WinCE had arrived to Singler's 302 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 5: apartment home those condos here in Colorado Springs to get 303 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 5: the kids per that child custody agreement. And that's when 304 00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 5: Singler accused her ex husband of calling her disparaging names, 305 00:17:44,000 --> 00:17:47,679 Speaker 5: pulling a knife out on her. And when Colorado's Friends 306 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 5: police arrived to investigate these allegations, Winz denied ever pulling 307 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 5: a knife out on his ex wife. 308 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:56,320 Speaker 2: Well, did they find a knife that? 309 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 5: I'm not sure. 310 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,760 Speaker 3: I'm very curious you know about that Ali mitigation number 311 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 3: one since we don't know the cod was it death 312 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:07,200 Speaker 3: by knife? 313 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 2: So what do we know about that? 314 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 7: We're not sure yet. 315 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace Eric. 316 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 3: Fattus, high profile lawyer joining us out of this jurisdiction. 317 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 2: Eric Fattus, one of my. 318 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 3: Very best friends, is a defense attorney, and she's told 319 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: me multiple times that she'd rather try defend a killer 320 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 3: than get in the middle of a custody and divorce case. 321 00:18:50,840 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 3: And having known her for some time, there have been 322 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:56,360 Speaker 3: times she didn't. 323 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:59,200 Speaker 2: Even want to walk to her car in the parking. 324 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:05,240 Speaker 3: Deck because as the opposing respondent was so angry over 325 00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:08,879 Speaker 3: the divorce, afraid to take a shot at her. So 326 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: when I hear a five year long custody battle that 327 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 3: sounds vicious, all these claims about waving a knife the 328 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: request denied. Do you agree or disagree? These are highly 329 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 3: emotional cases. 330 00:19:23,760 --> 00:19:25,119 Speaker 10: Oh, I've got to agree with you, Nancy. 331 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 6: And you know these things, these custody cases can just 332 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:31,719 Speaker 6: be a nightmare, and a nightmare that doesn't end quickly 333 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:33,640 Speaker 6: at least that this has been going on for five 334 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 6: years now, and it really can do. It's so emotionally charged, 335 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:40,439 Speaker 6: and it escalates over time in some cases, and it 336 00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 6: appears here it may have come to kind of a 337 00:19:42,560 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 6: crescendo that led to this horrendous incident that we're discussing today. 338 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:48,400 Speaker 2: And Eric Fatas, I get it. 339 00:19:49,400 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 3: I mean I get angry when my husband wants to 340 00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:53,119 Speaker 3: pick the children up and pick up at the end 341 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:53,919 Speaker 3: of the day at school. 342 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: I want to pick them up, much less take them away. 343 00:19:56,720 --> 00:19:58,520 Speaker 2: And I only get them fifty percent of the time. 344 00:19:58,760 --> 00:20:03,520 Speaker 3: That's not happening. But what do we know about this case? 345 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: Take a listen to Sydney Sumner. 346 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:07,840 Speaker 4: The court ordered that the children have additional time with 347 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 4: their father, Kevin Wentz, around Thanksgiving and again December sixteenth 348 00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 4: through December thirty first. The court also ordered Singler to 349 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 4: pay fees for Wentz's attorneys and that Wentz be awarded 350 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:21,000 Speaker 4: additional time with the children, which was lost due to 351 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,760 Speaker 4: Singler's allegations. It was arranged for the child exchanges to 352 00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 4: take place at a police station in Colorado Springs and 353 00:20:27,640 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 4: the Greeley police station. When Singler failed to show up 354 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 4: with the children, Wentz's attorney filed an emergency motion to 355 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 4: law enforcement for assistance to enforce parenting time. The court 356 00:20:37,800 --> 00:20:40,880 Speaker 4: granted the motion on December eighteenth, with the status conference 357 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 4: scheduled for the twentieth. Singler was ordered to bring the 358 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:44,880 Speaker 4: children to court that day. 359 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 3: Okay, wait a minute, December eighteen, isn't that Heather scold 360 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 3: the day before they're found murdered? 361 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 2: Correct? 362 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 5: In fact, that emergency motion, which was granted the eighteenth 363 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,959 Speaker 5: of December, demanded that she bring the children to Larimer 364 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:09,440 Speaker 5: County Court on December twentieth. And remember this goes back 365 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 5: to December sixteenth, when she was supposed to drop the 366 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 5: kids off at the Stetten Hills Police substation, and she 367 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 5: was nowhere to be found. She was not there to 368 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 5: exchange the children with Wynn. 369 00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 2: Well, you're right. 370 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:29,359 Speaker 3: Take a listen to Rachel Bunia from crime Online. 371 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 12: Kimberly Singler was days away from losing custody of her 372 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:35,880 Speaker 12: children after failing to follow a court order to drop 373 00:21:35,920 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 12: the children off to her ex husband at the Colorado 374 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:43,160 Speaker 12: Springs Police department at Stetson Hills substation. The next day, 375 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 12: Kevin Wentz's attorney asked a Lara mur County judge to 376 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 12: grant him sole possession of his children since Singler violated 377 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 12: their child custody agreement. Singler was contacted by the police 378 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 12: but said she was nowhere near the station, That's why 379 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 12: she didn't drop them off. She also sent an email 380 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 12: stating she was in Colorado with her three children. Whens 381 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 12: was then granted full time custody of the children. 382 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 3: So the hearing was about him getting full custody because 383 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: she failed to drop the children off at a neutral location. 384 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: Is that right, Heather Scold? 385 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 5: That is correct, and in fact, she told Colorado Springs 386 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 5: police that on December sixteenth, where she'd failed to drop 387 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 5: those kids off at the police sub station. She then 388 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 5: responded by saying, I am nowhere near the police station. 389 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 5: According to court documents, that's when WinCE's attorney reached out 390 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:40,280 Speaker 5: to Miss Singler, asking where where are you. She informed 391 00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 5: them by email that she was in Breckenridge. 392 00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 6: That's about two and a half hours away from here. 393 00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: Now, how close is her condo from that police station. 394 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 5: I would say, Nancy, that is about a two minute 395 00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 5: drive away. 396 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:56,760 Speaker 3: Okay, so this is all going down around December eighteen. 397 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,080 Speaker 2: On December nineteen twelve. 398 00:22:59,760 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 3: To twenty nine am, within the same twenty four hour period, 399 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,159 Speaker 3: the children are found dead in their beds, we believe 400 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 3: in their beds. At twelve twenty nine am. That nine 401 00:23:12,600 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 3: one one call is made. Two children dead, ages seven 402 00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 3: and nine. One eleven year old harmed goes in the hospital. 403 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 3: Mommy harmed goes in the hospital. Mommy is released, but 404 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:34,199 Speaker 3: then she goes a wall. It turns out she is 405 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:42,720 Speaker 3: four thousand miles away from their Colorado home in Kensington. 406 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:47,960 Speaker 3: I don't mean Kensington, New England. I mean Kensington as 407 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,560 Speaker 3: in London, as in the Duke and Duchess of Kensington. 408 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,600 Speaker 2: That Kensington, joining me right now, special guest. 409 00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 7: RV. 410 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,840 Speaker 3: Brandt, Senior Inspector, US Marshall Service, International Investigations Branch, Chief 411 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 3: Inspector at DJ's Office of International Affairs. 412 00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 2: Author of solo Shotcurse. 413 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,200 Speaker 3: Of the Bluestone on Amazon and Flying Solo Top of 414 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 3: the World also on Amazon, inspired by all of his 415 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 3: trekking down people all around the world. 416 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 2: For the US government. IRV Brandt. I mean, her children 417 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,160 Speaker 2: are dead in the home. 418 00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 3: She's in the home at the time they're murdered. She 419 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,800 Speaker 3: gets taken to the hospital with minor injuries and released. 420 00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,679 Speaker 3: How the hey does this woman leave the country and 421 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:46,919 Speaker 3: travel four thousand miles away to Kensington? 422 00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 10: Oh, Nancy, unfortunately easily is how she did it. I'm 423 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,959 Speaker 10: sure she just went to the airport and she has 424 00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 10: a valid passport, probably Denver, and got on a flight 425 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:01,080 Speaker 10: to the UK. 426 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 2: I don't know why. 427 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense to me, doctor Angela Arnold, with 428 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 3: two dead children and one child just out of the hospital, 429 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,200 Speaker 3: you high tail it to the UK. 430 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 8: Because Nancy, she knew she was in some trouble. 431 00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 2: She was in some trouble. 432 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 3: I agree with that, and I'll tell you why agree 433 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 3: with that? Not because she is the only adult in 434 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 3: the home, that she has minor injuries. 435 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 2: And they're dead. 436 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,119 Speaker 3: But because of this, take a listen to our cut 437 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 3: two from rachel Bania. 438 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:35,360 Speaker 12: Police determine the burglary report is unfounded and present evidence 439 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 12: to obtain a warrant for Singler's arrest, but the mom 440 00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 12: is nowhere to be found since she was not a suspect, 441 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,639 Speaker 12: Singler was not under surveillance, and by the time she 442 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,440 Speaker 12: needed to be, she was gone. Kimberly Singler was last 443 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 12: seen December twenty third in Colorado. 444 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 2: Two days before Christmas. 445 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,640 Speaker 3: Okay, that's what we were talking about. Eric Fattis, you're 446 00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 3: the high profile lawyer joining us OUTE of Colorado this jurisdiction. 447 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 3: That's why the entry point should have been determined. 448 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: At the very beginning. But of course they're dealing with 449 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:11,360 Speaker 2: two dead children's bodies. So I mean. 450 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,320 Speaker 3: You can tell if a glass has been broken from 451 00:26:15,359 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 3: the outside or the inside, depending on where you find 452 00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: the glass. 453 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: You can tell if a screen door is. 454 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 3: Cut from the outside or the inside, depending on which 455 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 3: way the screen wiring is now pointed based on the slashing. 456 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 3: You can tell if a door has been jimmied. You 457 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 3: can tell if there's no forced entry. I'm betting you. 458 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,440 Speaker 3: I'm betting you there is no forced entry. 459 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 2: Eric fattys right. 460 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,639 Speaker 6: And you know, of course, to the police's credit that 461 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 6: they came upon this scene. I'm sure it's chaotic at tactic. 462 00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 6: There are two dead children here, so there's a lot 463 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 6: going on. But like I said, one of the first 464 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:57,160 Speaker 6: points of focus for law enforcement should be determining whether 465 00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 6: there was a breaking and entering in that residue or 466 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:03,840 Speaker 6: if there's a parent evidence of that, trying to determine 467 00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 6: whether it was stained or set up by someone or not. 468 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 6: Maybe it is a legitimate breaking an entry in a burglary, 469 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,720 Speaker 6: but those are really sort of the starting points to 470 00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 6: this kind of investigation. And so I'm curious to see 471 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 6: exactly how that played out. 472 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:21,959 Speaker 3: And you got to think about this woman because Eric Fattus, 473 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 3: and I want everybody on the panel to jump in 474 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,760 Speaker 3: on this if you have a thought, Eric Fattus, she 475 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 3: has already gone in front of one judge two judges 476 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 3: actually to claim her husband waved a knife at her 477 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 3: and wanted to get sole parenting. 478 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,600 Speaker 2: Based on that, both judges ruled it out. 479 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,600 Speaker 3: Police determined there had not been a knife attack or 480 00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 3: a knife threatening. So we know that was pulled off. 481 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 3: So I can imagine the drama and the acting that 482 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 3: went down when police got there to find the two 483 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,480 Speaker 3: dead children's bodies. Police did not believe she was a 484 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 3: suspect at that time. Into their credit. Now like you 485 00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,240 Speaker 3: know what, something's not right and they go back and 486 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 3: they do determine there was no burglary. Nothing about the 487 00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,320 Speaker 3: evidence suggested a burglary occur, and we wouldn't know that 488 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 3: if police had not gone back and done their job right. 489 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 6: Thank Kevin's they did. But upon learning that, you know, 490 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 6: they've got to realize there is there is a mother 491 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 6: who is now. 492 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 10: Probably a suspect, but two dead children. 493 00:28:26,480 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 6: We better keep an eye on her, We better make 494 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 6: sure that we know of her whereabouts and at the 495 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 6: very least you better not make we better not allow 496 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 6: her to apply all the way to the UK and 497 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 6: a scone. 498 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:38,760 Speaker 2: Well she did it. Take a listen to our cut seven. 499 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,000 Speaker 12: Details as to how police tracked Kimberly Singler to the 500 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 12: UK or the arrests itself have not been released, but 501 00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,440 Speaker 12: we do know she was picked up in Kensington, London, 502 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 12: four thousand miles away from the Colorado Home. 503 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: Time Stories with Nancy Grace. 504 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 3: Joining me is a renowned expert or brand Senior inspector 505 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 3: US Marshall Service and author or of how did they 506 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 3: track her? 507 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,880 Speaker 10: Well? From years of experience, I would say it's most 508 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 10: likely that investigators got information from a family member or friend. 509 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 10: It would be easy enough to verify through text the 510 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 10: Treasury re Enforcement Communication System that person using the US 511 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 10: passport left the country and you could track where they 512 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 10: went to. And it's also likely that they also had 513 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:51,640 Speaker 10: information of where she was Kensington, London. It's a big 514 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 10: place and Kensington is in central London. 515 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 3: Would she have been so stupid to use her credit 516 00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 3: cards in ATMs? 517 00:29:59,440 --> 00:30:02,640 Speaker 2: Yes, she would have. Heather's goold. Wasn't she found in 518 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: a hotel in Kensington? 519 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 5: That is correct, in a hotel on the west side 520 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,200 Speaker 5: of London? Apprehended by Britain's version of the FBI, the 521 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:12,440 Speaker 5: National Crime Agency? 522 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,840 Speaker 2: Is that true or BRANT? Is that the FBI equivalent 523 00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:16,360 Speaker 2: in London? 524 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 10: It is and it's made up by officers from multiple jurisdictions. 525 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,200 Speaker 3: We also know that London is covered in CCTV. They 526 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:33,400 Speaker 3: take it very very seriously. There are not long stretches 527 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 3: where you don't have security cam. Also, as we saw 528 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 3: in the Kaitlin Armstrong case which you covered with me 529 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 3: and investigated Brandt, Kaylin Armstrong was seen at the airport 530 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 3: using her sister's passport to get away from a murder charge, 531 00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 3: which leads me to the theory of fly. Eric fattis, 532 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 3: you're the former prosecutor turned defense attorney. How you get 533 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 3: explained to a jury what she just went sightseeing in London? 534 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 3: She just wanted to tour through Buckingham Palace. 535 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: That's not going to work. 536 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:07,840 Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm filing a motion to withdraw if I'm representing her, 537 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 6: because you're not going to be able to sell that 538 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:13,280 Speaker 6: to anybody. The idea when someone flees is that there 539 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,640 Speaker 6: is a consciousness of guilt. They know they did something wrong. 540 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 6: And even the judge in the UK said somebody that 541 00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 6: effect when he said that Kimberly Singler knew exactly what 542 00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 6: was going to happen, and now she is in these 543 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 6: extradition proceedings to come back to Colorado. Although I think 544 00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 6: those are going to be. 545 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:33,080 Speaker 3: Like, well, you're right, take a listen to Rachel Beni 546 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 3: a crime online. 547 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 12: She spent fourteen days on the run Singler appeared in 548 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:41,760 Speaker 12: a London court New Year's Day to face extradition proceedings. 549 00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:45,760 Speaker 12: In her appearance at the Westminster Magistrates Court, Singler told 550 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 12: the court she did not consent to being taken back 551 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 12: to the US. Reportedly, she had been staying in a hotel. 552 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,160 Speaker 12: Singler will remain in custody in London until a second 553 00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 12: hearing January twenty ninth. We're in a formal request for 554 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 12: her extradition to the United States will be filed. 555 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 3: You know, I'd like to think that she was so 556 00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:05,320 Speaker 3: distraught she didn't realize what she was doing, but that's 557 00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 3: not true. She had to use her passport to fly 558 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 3: to London, Heathrow or wherever she flew. She didn't row 559 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 3: over there in a canoe. She had to use a passport, 560 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: She had to book a fly, she had to find 561 00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 3: a hotel, so she had her wits about her. Also, 562 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:30,640 Speaker 3: or Brant, if you could explain how a transcontinental extradition 563 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:31,920 Speaker 3: would occur. 564 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 10: Sure, She's was arrested on what we'd call provisional arrest 565 00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:46,880 Speaker 10: warrant pending extradition to the United States. Her initial plea 566 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 10: is that she is going to fight extradition. The extradition 567 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:56,840 Speaker 10: process from the UK can be very lengthy, a lot 568 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:02,800 Speaker 10: of hearings in a multitude of appeals, and so if 569 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:07,760 Speaker 10: she fights it to the very end throughout the appeal process, 570 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 10: it could take up to years to get her back. Normally, 571 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 10: I've handled many many extraditions from the UK. Normally, at 572 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 10: some point people in custody and they're not if they're 573 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 10: not released, realized that they are eventually going to have 574 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,000 Speaker 10: to face the charges, and they consent to the extradition 575 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 10: and they come back because there's one big factor that 576 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 10: attorneys will point out to them is while they're in 577 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 10: custody in the United Kingdom fighting extradition back to the 578 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 10: United States, they're not getting credit for the time that 579 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 10: they're being served. It's not like if you were in 580 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 10: a in the United States, once you go to trial, 581 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:58,760 Speaker 10: you get credit for all the time that you're in custody. 582 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,479 Speaker 10: When you're outside of the country fighting extradition, you're not 583 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 10: getting any credit for the time. So a lot of times, 584 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:12,200 Speaker 10: at some point people will say, okay, fine, I'll come 585 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 10: back and I'll bring up a case. He might be 586 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,800 Speaker 10: familiar with it. Nancy, do you remember neil En Whistle 587 00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 10: that killed his wife in Boston. Oh, Yes, and fled to. 588 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,439 Speaker 3: The Whistle, killed wife and daughter Lily, and ran home 589 00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:28,719 Speaker 3: to mommy and daddy. 590 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:28,959 Speaker 2: In the UK. 591 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 10: I did the extradition. I chartered the jet and flew 592 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 10: to menden Hall Air Force Base outside of London and 593 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:41,120 Speaker 10: brought nil En Whistle back to the United States. Yes, 594 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 10: and that was exactly what happened. He initially was going 595 00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:50,320 Speaker 10: to fight extradition but realized he wasn't going to be released. 596 00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:52,000 Speaker 2: You're right, or Brandt as usual. 597 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,560 Speaker 3: But what's striking me is that she is choosing to 598 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 3: miss her children's funeral, which is in a couple of 599 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 3: hours from right now, which leads me to a psychological 600 00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 3: question to doctor Angie, and b to a medical question 601 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 3: to doctor Eric Aeson, a forensic pathologist joining us doctor Esen. 602 00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,600 Speaker 3: The funeral is happening for these two children, the funerals 603 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 3: for a seven year old and a nine year old. 604 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,880 Speaker 2: Their little caskets are about to be buried. 605 00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:31,959 Speaker 3: So wouldn't it doesn't that suggest to you that there 606 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,320 Speaker 3: is a formal cause of death. 607 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,319 Speaker 9: Possibly the autopsies have been done, of course, and so 608 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,400 Speaker 9: the pathologist what the cause of death may be? My 609 00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,880 Speaker 9: theory as to why we don't have a sertificatet prepared 610 00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 9: is they are probably awaiting toxicology results on this case. 611 00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:54,600 Speaker 9: So maybe an element of like a poisoning combined with 612 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 9: strangulation or smothering or something like that, and so they 613 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,480 Speaker 9: need the result of that, Like did some give them 614 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:04,320 Speaker 9: been a drill or Mike will or any breeze perhaps 615 00:36:04,360 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 9: to try to timp the poison them and then ended 616 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 9: up inflicting one trauma or strangulation, And so they're probably 617 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:11,960 Speaker 9: waiting on that. 618 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, when you say toxicology, I'd be curious that they 619 00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 3: were administered something as in I think what happened with 620 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 3: Caylee Anthony given some type of homemade chloroform or ben 621 00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:29,120 Speaker 3: a drill or some sleeping agent before a duct tape 622 00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 3: was put across her mouth and possibly knows which led 623 00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:36,680 Speaker 3: to her death in the trunk of that car. I 624 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 3: see where you're going, doctor, and I agree with you, 625 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,440 Speaker 3: Doctor Ason yet again, although you got me on the 626 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 3: PARTICII hemorrhages and I really resent that. I hope we 627 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:46,480 Speaker 3: live to fight another day. 628 00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 2: Doctor Angie Arnold. 629 00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 3: Missing the funeral, I mean, one of the worst moments 630 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 3: in my life was when I went to my fiance's funeral, 631 00:36:57,239 --> 00:37:02,560 Speaker 3: which shortly before our wedding turned into a funeral. But 632 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 3: I would never have never the thought never occurred to 633 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:07,240 Speaker 3: me not to be there. 634 00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 2: But this mom isn't there. 635 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:13,160 Speaker 8: Well, Nancy, she's already had closure with those children and 636 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 8: a funeral. A funeral, as they all say, is for 637 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 8: the living, and it helps people have closure after someone 638 00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:24,000 Speaker 8: is dead. Nancy, I believe that she's moved on from 639 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:31,359 Speaker 8: that and she knows what happened. She in her heart 640 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 8: knows what happened, and she doesn't need to go to 641 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:36,280 Speaker 8: the funeral to find closure with those children. 642 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 3: As of now, as the rest of the family heads 643 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:44,320 Speaker 3: to the children's funeral, we wait. 644 00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:48,080 Speaker 2: We're justice too, and fat goodbye son.