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Speaker 1: Also media, Welcome back to Behind the Bastard's a podcast

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Speaker 1: where you never know if I've sent Sophie the script

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Speaker 1: prior to actually starting the episode like I'm supposed to,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's caught in the tube. Sophie, you remember that,

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Speaker 1: you remember when that guy, that guy in Congress called

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Speaker 1: the Internet a series of tubes, and we all laughed

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Speaker 1: at him, and then years later we were all like, actually,

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Speaker 1: that's not a bad way to describe the Internet, to

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Speaker 1: be honest. Yeah, yeah, you remember that. Anyway, what I

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Speaker 1: remember is that we have a special guest today, and

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Speaker 1: that guest is the great Marrow Wilson. Mara, welcome to

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Speaker 1: the show.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. And yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 2: it kind of is a series of tubes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's more. That's close enough, right, Yeah, yeah, Mara,

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Speaker 1: you are I mean, if you were a person listening

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Speaker 1: to this who is roughly my age, Marrow was in

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Speaker 1: I don't know about like thirty percent of the movies

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Speaker 1: that made up a huge part of your childhood. And

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Speaker 1: you have recently written a memoir Where Am I Now?

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Speaker 1: True Stories of Girlhood and Accidental Fame, which has been

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Speaker 1: named a best book of the month by Goodreads and

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Speaker 1: Entertainment Weekly. Mara, happy to have you on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, thank you. Yeah, yeah I do.

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Speaker 2: I do a bit of writing and voice acting and

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Speaker 2: things like that, and I love it. I'm I'm I'm lucky.

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Speaker 2: I've been doing things that I actually really like for

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Speaker 2: a job.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's always exciting.

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Speaker 2: Yes, which yeah, which which is hasn't always been the case?

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Speaker 3: And yeah that's nice.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, speaking of of of jobs, you know, I

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Speaker 1: got to do the thing. I'm sorry. I know this

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Speaker 1: is like the stereotypical reporter, you know, celebrity interview thing,

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Speaker 1: but I got to ask you this question. I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you get asked it all the time. If you're arming

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Speaker 1: an insurgent group to fight against a US backed military junta,

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Speaker 1: what kind of the detonators do you prefer on your

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Speaker 1: improvised explosives? Are you do you like like a bridge

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Speaker 1: wire cap or are you more of like a slapper

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Speaker 1: detonator type?

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Speaker 2: You know, I think it's really whatever the situation calls for. Perhaps,

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Speaker 2: you know, I probably should know more about this kind

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Speaker 2: of thing. I come from a family of electronics engineers,

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Speaker 2: but but yeah, no, I I think I slept through

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Speaker 2: that class.

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Speaker 1: Unfortunately, It's okay. We've got some standard literature we send

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Speaker 1: all of our guests on detonators, so we'll get that

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Speaker 1: into the mail to you.

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Speaker 2: Or maybe like my dad gave it to me in

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Speaker 2: a really boring lecture and I just zoned out and

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Speaker 2: just thinking about, you know, I don't know whatever it

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Speaker 2: was I was thinking about at the time, like Roco's

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Speaker 2: Modern life or whatever.

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Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, very common subjects. Roco's Modern Life. I love

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Speaker 1: that ef. Yeah. So, Mara, what do you know about

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Speaker 1: the Troubled Team wilderness rehab industry?

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Speaker 2: Oh? Good God, I actually know more than I actually

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Speaker 2: know a great deal about it because I have several

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Speaker 2: friends who went through it and it is hell on Earth.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so yes, this is actually something I'm very

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Speaker 2: passionate about.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so yeah, I'm glad to hear it me too.

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Speaker 1: This is actually like back kind of ten years ago.

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Speaker 1: Much earlier in my career as a journalist, I wrote

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Speaker 1: a number of articles with sources who had been to

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Speaker 1: different troubled teen rehab facilities around the country, most of

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Speaker 1: which wound up being based in like Utah or Montana.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, they are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So that's that's kind of the standard for

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Speaker 1: all particularly Utah. Like forty percent of all kids who

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Speaker 1: cross state lines to go to one of these facilities

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Speaker 1: wind up in fucking Utah. And you know today we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the reason why that is because

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Speaker 1: it all starts with a single guy. And he's not

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Speaker 1: just the guy who like started doing these troubled teen

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Speaker 1: rehab facilities because kind of versions of that had existed

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Speaker 1: for a while. He's the guy who decided, you know what,

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Speaker 1: we need to add to rehab programs for kids armed

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Speaker 1: men busting into their houses in the night and abducting them. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's who we're talking about today. And yeah, so I

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Speaker 1: guess let's get into this piece of shit. His name was.

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Speaker 4: I actually had the script though.

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Speaker 1: I sent it to you. I so did.

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Speaker 4: I do not the script?

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Speaker 1: The tubes ate it. I don't know what to tell Sophie.

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Speaker 1: You could just intuit the script.

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Speaker 4: I mean, like, sometimes my thoughts are in your voice,

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Speaker 4: but no, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, do this with a Oija board. Okay, anyway, you

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Speaker 1: should have the script now.

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Speaker 4: Sophie, someday perhaps Yeah, yeah, maybe not.

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Speaker 1: I don't. That's my fault then. Oh, also my fault

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Speaker 1: forgetting that we do cold opens. Now cold open's done,

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Speaker 1: it's time for the hot open and we're back. And

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Speaker 1: I sent it to you.

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Speaker 3: It's very sibling between the two of you.

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Speaker 1: Did It's got to be somewhere in the tube, Sophie.

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Speaker 1: I got it. It's up to the tubes.

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Speaker 4: Now we did it, Joe, I have the scripts.

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Speaker 1: Thank you? Does that make you the kamala? Because I

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Speaker 1: know I'm not sure I like this. I'm not nearly

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Speaker 1: that sleepy.

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Speaker 5: That means that the chance of thank you Joe are

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Speaker 5: no more thank you.

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Speaker 1: I'm a lot less drugs than Joe Biden too.

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Speaker 3: How do you feel about ice cream though?

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Speaker 1: Coming No, Actually.

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Speaker 3: I envy you so much.

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Speaker 2: Every now and then I meet somebody who's not a

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Speaker 2: sweets person and I'm like, god, damn, how did I

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Speaker 2: end up?

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Speaker 5: Now?

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Speaker 2: I am like baked goods and ice cream all of

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Speaker 2: the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the way I do like a nice You know

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Speaker 1: what my favorite thing is. It's just like a big

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Speaker 1: slice of friend bread with fucking salted amish butter on it.

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Speaker 1: That's like, oh that's really good to It's no healthier

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Speaker 1: than anything else.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's true. That's true. Well, sometimes I say less

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Speaker 2: than a sweet tooth, I have more of a carb tooth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Like give me some bread or like crackers, and

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Speaker 2: and I will go nuts.

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Speaker 3: And it's true.

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Speaker 2: Actually even after like I eat something sweet, I'm like

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Speaker 2: I need something else to like balance it, and I'll

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Speaker 2: eat something salty.

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Speaker 3: But it's just still carbs.

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Speaker 2: It's just still Yeah, it's it's bread with salted butter.

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Speaker 3: Or it's you know, it's toast, or it's crackers. So yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: it just mouthes.

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Speaker 1: Out optimized for survival. You know, our ancestors made it

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Speaker 1: through the frozen wasteland because it gets you know.

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Speaker 2: We're Eastern European, you know, we're pale of settlement Jews

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Speaker 2: on one side, and we're you know, Irish Catholic on

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Speaker 2: the other. So so yeah, some some some people who went.

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Speaker 3: Through a lot of shit, I guess.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the carbs make sense. Yeah, starvation is

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Speaker 1: a relevant topic here because a lot of children wind

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Speaker 1: up get starved because of its kind of what of

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Speaker 1: his main tech and really even within the parts of

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Speaker 1: the troubled teen industry that are like respectable and accredited,

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Speaker 1: all of them use starving kids as like a tool

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Speaker 1: for discipline they do.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I think, yeah, it's well. I went to so

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Speaker 2: I went to an arts boarding school. This is how,

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Speaker 2: this is how I spent my movie money. I went

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Speaker 2: to boarding school to study theater and and I.

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Speaker 3: I, it's it's sort of like the I always say it.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit like the Far Side cartoon of like

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Speaker 2: the kids who run away from the circus to join

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Speaker 2: corporate America. I ran away from Hollywood to do community theater.

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Speaker 3: So like I ran away.

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Speaker 2: To to to UH to a boarding school, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of the kids there had gone through these programs.

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Speaker 2: And because it turns out that if you're you know,

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Speaker 2: sometimes if you're like a sensitive artistic kid, you know,

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Speaker 2: people don't quite know what to do with you, so.

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Speaker 1: You know, might smoke in a pot or a little bit,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, So like these kids would be maybe they would

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Speaker 2: be depressed, or they would have an eating disorder, or

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Speaker 2: they would smoke weed, or they would start drinking young

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Speaker 2: and then you know, where are they sent off to. Inevitably,

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Speaker 2: they are always sent off to these places. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: it was even worse. Like I knew one girl there

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Speaker 2: who basically she didn't have a stable living environment. So

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Speaker 2: she ended up in one of these schools in Utah

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Speaker 2: because like like, kids who are essentially in the foster

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Speaker 2: program or don't have a stable living environment end up

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Speaker 2: in these places. It happens a lot. So tell me

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Speaker 2: about the bastard who started this, because.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a few. But it turns out everyone

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Speaker 1: who's been even tangentially involved in this industry is kind

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Speaker 1: of a monster. Like even the good guys who get

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Speaker 1: quoted when the monsters kill a kid. If you look

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Speaker 1: into the good guys, they also kind of suck. It

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Speaker 1: may just not be a thing that good people do,

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Speaker 1: is want to oper desert camps where you torture children.

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Speaker 1: I don't know, perhaps that's not a nice guy kind

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Speaker 1: of thing anyway, So I wanted to I wanted to

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Speaker 1: figure out I'd always you know, I've been covering this

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Speaker 1: as a journalist for years and years. I wrote stuff

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Speaker 1: it cracked, you know, on this, and I've been wondering, like,

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Speaker 1: who in the hell was the guy who did this?

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Speaker 1: And the partial answer to that question is Steve Cartazano,

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Speaker 1: And Steve kind of came into the public eye recently.

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Speaker 1: There's a documentary on Netflix that I think is produced

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Speaker 1: by Paris Hilton, who, as we'll talk about, is a

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Speaker 1: big voice in the hole. We should stop doing this, Kida.

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Speaker 3: But she she really is, she's been.

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Speaker 2: It's it's very funny to me to think about, like

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Speaker 2: the kids I know who you know, would talk about

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Speaker 2: how much they loved or hated Paris Hilton, and a

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Speaker 2: lot of them, you know, in that era when I

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Speaker 2: was meeting a lot of these kids who've been sent there.

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Speaker 2: And now she's like, yeah, she's she's completely done. She's

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Speaker 2: done something I don't know. I mean, like, like, say

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Speaker 2: what you will about the way that she was in

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Speaker 2: the two thousands.

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Speaker 3: She does seem to be passionate about this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, look, you know what she's she's done the right

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Speaker 1: thing here. And I don't think any of us should

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Speaker 1: be judged by what we did in the two thousands.

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Speaker 1: We need to just let's just let's just shovel that

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Speaker 1: decade off into the sea and pretend none of us,

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Speaker 1: none of us were making choices back then.

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Speaker 2: No, the gen Z and jen Aalfa, people who want

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Speaker 2: to bring it back, I'm like, no, it was shit,

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Speaker 2: it was don't It's like how I thought the eighties

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Speaker 2: were cool when I was you know when I was then,

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Speaker 2: and then I was like, oh no, this was the worst,

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Speaker 2: do you know.

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Speaker 6: To was.

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Speaker 2: Like, I'm very glad that I don't remember most of

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Speaker 2: the eighties.

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Speaker 1: There's never been a good decade.

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Speaker 2: There hasn't been. There hasn't been.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So Steve Cartesano is the guy we're going to

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Speaker 1: mostly be talking about these episodes, but as I noted earlier,

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Speaker 1: the whole troubled teen Wilderness Camp industrial complex is bigger

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Speaker 1: than him, and so before we start talking about him,

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Speaker 1: we've got to start a couple of decades earlier with

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Speaker 1: the childhood of a man named Larry Dean Olsen Larry,

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Speaker 1: and Larry is one of the guys who gets like

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Speaker 1: quoted as a good guy in this He was an

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Speaker 1: expert on running children's rehab facilities, and whenever one of

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Speaker 1: the bad facilities would kill a kid, the news would

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Speaker 1: talk to Larry, and so he's always depicted in those

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Speaker 1: articles as like, well, he's the responsible kind of guy

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Speaker 1: who does this. You know, this is a man who

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Speaker 1: really understands how to take care of children. As we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about, that's not really totally accurate to who Larry was.

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Speaker 1: But he was born in Wendell, Idaho, on January twenty third,

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, to Dean and Lola Olson. In most

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Speaker 1: casual bios of his life, he is described as a

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Speaker 1: farm boy who got admitted to Brigham Young University and

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Speaker 1: found primitive survival education programs there, which set him off

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Speaker 1: on his path in life, and that leaves out some

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Speaker 1: key details, like the fact that Larry was illiterate for

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Speaker 1: most of his early childhood. I found this quote in

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Speaker 1: an article in the Salt Lake City Tribune. Quote Olsen

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Speaker 1: traces his own wilderness transformation to the childhood day he

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Speaker 1: found an arrowhead while cleaning out his uncle's irrigation ditch.

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Speaker 1: The somewhat defiant youth who had refuse to learn to read,

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Speaker 1: was struck by the stone. It changed my life. I

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Speaker 1: took it to school, and my teacher gave me a

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Speaker 1: book about the Indians who made that arrowhead. I took

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Speaker 1: that book home and taught myself to read. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know how much I believe that it's possible, given

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Speaker 1: what else he does in his life, that this is

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Speaker 1: like literally what happens to him. I do think we're

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Speaker 1: missing some details about his childhood. The whole I was

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Speaker 1: refusing to read as a child thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I mean, they didn't really they didn't understand

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Speaker 2: things like you know, dyslexia or ADHD or even just

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Speaker 2: kids who learned differently, not necessarily like schools were very

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Speaker 2: much about conformity, and so yeah, so it does feel

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Speaker 2: a little bit like refusing to learn to read.

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Speaker 3: I think, is that is an interesting thing?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, now we're gonna and again I also think he's

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Speaker 1: probably smushing some stuff together here because it's too clean,

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Speaker 1: a story that's into marketable, a story like I saw

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Speaker 1: this arrowhead and I read this book about Native Americans

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Speaker 1: and that created my whole life passion and everything. Real

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Speaker 1: life is rarely quite that smooth.

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Speaker 2: There's also this sort of like it's I don't know

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Speaker 2: what the term is for it exactly, but there is

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Speaker 2: this fetishization I think of Native Americans that you know,

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Speaker 2: it's it's like like orientalism, but for the sort of

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Speaker 2: like noble savage idea that's big. Probably around the time

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Speaker 2: that he's talking about these things. Yes, so especially I

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Speaker 2: think probably in Utah too, because they consider, yeah, they

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Speaker 2: think that they're connected to the Native Americans.

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Speaker 1: Well, they rejuice is a big part of this, or

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Speaker 1: a lot of them are Mormon, the fact that they

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Speaker 1: and like, yeah, Native American appropriation is huge. Like later

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Speaker 1: in life, Larry is going to co own a camp

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Speaker 1: that's like named after the Anasazi, and I think it's

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Speaker 1: the kind of thing where like he brings in a

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Speaker 1: guy who is Indigenous as his like co owner largely

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Speaker 1: so he can say like, look, we're authentic, you know,

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Speaker 1: like that happens a lot. Now that was a lot

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Speaker 1: more common. We're mostly talking like these seventies, eighties, nineties,

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Speaker 1: so he's not like an outside of the cultural mate.

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Speaker 1: Like the Boy Scouts are doing shit like that just

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Speaker 1: as much, right, I mean.

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Speaker 2: My public high school before I went off to my

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Speaker 2: arts boarding school. Yeah, our mascot was the Indians until

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Speaker 2: I think twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: We did some shit in the Boy Scouts when I

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Speaker 1: was like fourteen years old that would not pass mustard today.

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Speaker 1: Let me tell you that.

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Speaker 3: No, it was.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff where it's just like

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Speaker 2: Jesus CHRISTO. Yeah, yeah, it wouldn't. Yeah, and it was

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Speaker 2: not that long ago.

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Speaker 1: No, no, No, It's like it's like watching like an

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Speaker 1: eighties movie that's like set in Cowboy Times and being like, well,

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Speaker 1: all of these people playing in Native Americans are very

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Speaker 1: clearly Italian.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, So whatever the truth about Olsen's childhood, we

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Speaker 7: don't get a whole lot of good details on him

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Speaker 7: until nineteen sixty six, when in his like kind of

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Speaker 7: late twenties, he winds up at BYU.

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Speaker 1: Now, if you are aware, BYU was Utah's premier university,

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Speaker 1: and it is run and owned by the Church of

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Speaker 1: Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and the

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Speaker 1: elders at the school are concerned at this point that

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Speaker 1: a number of students are having trouble maintaining their academics,

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Speaker 1: so they're like looking for a program they can use

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Speaker 1: on kids who are having trouble and at risk of

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Speaker 1: kind of like failing out of the school. Now, at

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Speaker 1: the time, there's no real industry for like taking kids

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Speaker 1: out into the woods, like particularly young adults, and like

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Speaker 1: giving them wilderness therapy. You've got like the boy Scouts.

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Speaker 1: But outside of that, kind of the closest thing to

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Speaker 1: the modern industry is this company called Outward Bound, which

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Speaker 1: had been started back in the UK by this Welsh

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Speaker 1: guy back during World War Two. Author John Krackauur notes

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Speaker 1: that this was done to quote help stiffen the sagging

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Speaker 1: spine of the British Empire, based on the logic that like,

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Speaker 1: we're just not hiking enough. That's why all these countries

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Speaker 1: keep leaving. Hike faster, or India is trying to go.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty two, Outward Bound had moved to the

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Speaker 1: United States, where it offered a twenty six day course

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Speaker 1: that included multi day hikes, rock climbing, and other high

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Speaker 1: adventure stuff. And one of the things that strikes me

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Speaker 1: about all these I like the outdoors. I like hiking

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Speaker 1: and camping. Twenty six days is much longer than I

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Speaker 1: want to spend on any kind of course. Yeah, I remember.

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Speaker 2: Reading about them when I was a kid and I

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Speaker 2: was I was like a pretty we were like a

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Speaker 2: pretty outdoorsy family.

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Speaker 7: You know.

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Speaker 2: We went camping all the time. I loved it, but

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Speaker 2: we were but we were out Like if you grow

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Speaker 2: up I think on the west coast of like the

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Speaker 2: US and probably Canada and possibly Mexico too, you kind

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Speaker 2: of like probably anywhere in North America on the West coast,

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Speaker 2: you get very into like let's go into the woods,

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Speaker 2: let's go into the desert. Let's do this, But.

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Speaker 1: Then I had to do it. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I remember reading about that and hearing like, you're like fourteen,

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Speaker 2: you have to spend the night alone in the forest

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Speaker 2: by yourself, and yeah, you go for weeks at a time.

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Speaker 2: And I was just like, for a second, I was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: that would be so cool to do, and then I

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Speaker 2: was like, no, actually that.

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Speaker 1: Would be miserable, like a little log.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to shower after a few days, you know,

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Speaker 2: I'd like, that's that's a bit. You know, you don't

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Speaker 2: even have doctor Browner's with you. That's that's too much.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think all of the like in twenty six days.

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Speaker 1: By the way, it's like very short for these courses,

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Speaker 1: Like they're all just going to get longer to the

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Speaker 1: extent because like I mean, we'll get to that. But

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Speaker 1: a big part of the point is like keeping your

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Speaker 1: kids away from you for as long as possible. Now,

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Speaker 1: it's a big thing in.

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Speaker 2: The British That's a big thing in British history too.

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Speaker 1: The thing British people are least interested in during the

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Speaker 1: Imperial period is raising their children.

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Speaker 2: Queen Victoria, she hated kids. She loves sex the way. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she loved sex with with with Albert.

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Speaker 3: And she hated kids.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and and add outward Bound. Those are their two.

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Speaker 1: There are two primary guiding principles is sex with Prince

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Speaker 1: Albert and uh not having kids near their parents. Yes,

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Speaker 1: so it's important I note that outward Bound is not

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Speaker 1: the place, not the They are not like these the

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Speaker 1: facilities that we started the episode talking about. They're not

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Speaker 1: kidnapping kids, they don't torture children. They're pretty much just

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Speaker 1: like summer camp type programs, right, and they prove to

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Speaker 1: be very in demand. And it's kind of like looking

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Speaker 1: at outward Bound and a couple of like copycat camps,

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Speaker 1: some of the people running BYU start talking like, maybe

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Speaker 1: we should have a program like this, And that's where

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Speaker 1: Larry Olsen comes into the picture. Olsen had only gotten

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Speaker 1: more interested in primitive skills as an adolescent and a

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Speaker 1: young man, and by the time he's in college, he's

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Speaker 1: teaching survival courses like on the weekends and stuff to

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Speaker 1: local hunters around Salt Lake City to pay his way

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Speaker 1: through college. So people at the administration find this out

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Speaker 1: and they're like, hey, you seem like a perfect person

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Speaker 1: to like figure out how to do this program for us.

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Speaker 1: So he starts off just kind of taking students into

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Speaker 1: the desert for a few days at a time and

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Speaker 1: teaching them survival skills like how to build shelters and

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Speaker 1: start fires. And when these classes prove popular, BYU offers

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Speaker 1: to pay him ninety dollars to take seventy kids out

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Speaker 1: into the bush for like days at a time, which

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Speaker 1: is not enough money to do that.

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Speaker 3: Like it would even cover I mean even with.

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Speaker 1: For the food.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, okay, but still, but still, I worked with

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Speaker 2: teenagers for you know, I work with teenagers, and yeah,

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Speaker 2: you nobody has paid enough to work with teenage I

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Speaker 2: love working with teenagers, but but yeah, nobody has paid

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Speaker 2: enough to work with teenagers.

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Speaker 1: I would need ninety dollars an hour in nineteen seventies

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Speaker 1: money to take care of seventy kids in the woods.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, I've worked with Yeah no's that's not in

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Speaker 2: the woods now.

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Speaker 1: So they eventually expand to paying him like two hundred

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Speaker 1: bucks each course to teach like a month long course

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Speaker 1: to one hundred something kids. And they these are all students,

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Speaker 1: these are so these are all like young adults really

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Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen years old, who are having trouble in college,

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Speaker 1: and they noticed that, like, the program seems to really help.

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Speaker 1: According to a two thousand and eight article for the

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Speaker 1: Salt Lake Tribune by Brian Mathley, quote Olson soon was

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Speaker 1: leading outings that lasted several days, and BYU deans began

416
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Speaker 1: noticing changes in the students who went unexplained improvement in

417
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Speaker 1: school performance and better manners at home please the student's parents.

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Speaker 1: So university officials hatched a plan with Olson, who was

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Speaker 1: still in his twenties and struggling to support a growing

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Speaker 1: family that would eventually include ten children, that developed a

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Speaker 1: course that offered failing BYU students a shot at readmission

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Speaker 1: if they learned survival skills and went on a month

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Speaker 1: long backpacking trip through the Utah Desert. So that's what happens,

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Speaker 1: and he does this for a couple of years. And

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Speaker 1: the reason why he gets treated as a heroic figure

426
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Speaker 1: by folks in the industry who want to separate themselves

427
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Speaker 1: from the bad programs that like get kids killed is

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Speaker 1: they think, fundamentally, there's got to be something to this

429
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Speaker 1: idea of if kids are troubled, you send them out

430
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Speaker 1: into the wilderness for several weeks and they'll come back better.

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Speaker 2: And I feel like people always kind of get the

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Speaker 2: wrong idea, like they always look at the like I

433
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Speaker 2: feel like this happens a lot where they'll be they'll

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Speaker 2: be like one thing and people will be like, oh, well,

435
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Speaker 2: it's this specific part of it, and it's like, well,

436
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Speaker 2: maybe a lot of these kids felt kind of overwhelmed

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00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:10,160
Speaker 2: and out of control, and maybe you taught them some

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00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: skills that made them feel confident, you know, or more

439
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 2: in control, or maybe they were with a group and

440
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: they bonded, like things like isolation and feeling out of

441
00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:25,520
Speaker 2: control and feeling lonely, like these are things that college

442
00:21:25,600 --> 00:21:28,520
Speaker 2: kids go through that make them that where they struggle

443
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,800
Speaker 2: a lot, like probably they would have been just as well,

444
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 2: Like it didn't necessarily have to mean they were going

445
00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:34,760
Speaker 2: out to the desert.

446
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:36,080
Speaker 1: I don't know.

447
00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,399
Speaker 2: You could have taught them like backgammon or something and

448
00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,639
Speaker 2: they would have been like, oh awesome, you know.

449
00:21:40,800 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's part. Yeah, I think that's true.

450
00:21:43,200 --> 00:21:46,400
Speaker 1: I also think like there's nothing like there's a lot

451
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,200
Speaker 1: of benefit potentially, and like wilderness skills and like being

452
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: out in the woods, like there can be a therapy.

453
00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 2: No, it's true, Yeah, that is that is true. I

454
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,679
Speaker 2: do think like for me personally, like I feel like

455
00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,240
Speaker 2: much calmer when I like take a walk and there's

456
00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: lots of trees and you know, go to the park

457
00:22:02,520 --> 00:22:05,159
Speaker 2: or you know, go camping, Like I definitely feel so

458
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: there definitely is something to that. But yeah, I know

459
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: they're going to take this and they're going to make

460
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 2: it much worse.

461
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're going to so you know, b yu,

462
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 1: I think actually does because we're going to be there's

463
00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:19,360
Speaker 1: a lot to criticize the Mormon aspect of this whole industry,

464
00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,560
Speaker 1: but I think initially it comes from a pretty good place.

465
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,600
Speaker 1: And initially it's not a punishment. It's more of a hey,

466
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: we've noticed you're struggling. We can like we will basically

467
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:30,240
Speaker 1: give you a kind of school credit if you do

468
00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:32,399
Speaker 1: this program. It's helped a lot of other people. And

469
00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:35,880
Speaker 1: like these are also adults, right, So these are people

470
00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:38,119
Speaker 1: who are like able to make a decision do I

471
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: want to spend thirty days in the wilderness doing this thing?

472
00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 3: So wobably some of them are married.

473
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:45,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of them presumably are married. This be

474
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: this right is like Olsen's in his twenties and has

475
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 1: multiple children, children. Yeah, yeah, and he gets he gets

476
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:56,160
Speaker 1: treated again as a heroic figure in this industry who

477
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,080
Speaker 1: talk about this as like, well, he had this beautiful

478
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,520
Speaker 1: dream and it started from a really good place. And

479
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 1: all of those recitations of events tend to ignore why

480
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,679
Speaker 1: Larry had to leave. BYU at John Krackour and his

481
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,959
Speaker 1: reporting for Outside magazine claims that he left quote following

482
00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:15,359
Speaker 1: allegations of this mismanagement and sexual impropriety, and then sites

483
00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:18,639
Speaker 1: of BYU colleague saying Larry liked the girls a little

484
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 1: too much. Now, I don't know, does that mean the

485
00:23:21,480 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: girls that he was taking out into the woods alone

486
00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:26,439
Speaker 1: for weeks at a time, because, as a spoiler, that

487
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,840
Speaker 1: happens in every single one of these programs.

488
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

489
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, more in the abusive side than what I would

490
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 1: call impropriety. But it's not clear to me that what

491
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,840
Speaker 1: Larry did was not on the abusive side, right.

492
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the girls, especially the girls. The girls

493
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 2: is very Yeah, that is a very telling phrase.

494
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,200
Speaker 1: Mean I don't like your use of that word here.

495
00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely not.

496
00:23:50,080 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's girls. Girls is definitely one of those words

497
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: that's a totally different world word depending on like inflection,

498
00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 1: like if you're talking about like I'm going out to

499
00:23:58,119 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 1: the bar with the girls.

500
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 2: Girls. Yeah, that's very different the.

501
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:02,959
Speaker 1: Girls than this. The girls.

502
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,080
Speaker 2: I feel like i'd even hear people say like, oh, yeah,

503
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 2: he liked the.

504
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: Ladies, like like the ladies. Sure that feels say you say.

505
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 2: About these ladies, but that is you know, like, Okay,

506
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: that guy's sleazy, but he is not, you know, a monster.

507
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: He's not a pedophile. Right, Yeah, yeah, you're open. You're

508
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 1: leaving that door open when you're described it this way. Yeah.

509
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 1: Now I should note that sexual impropriety, and again this

510
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,680
Speaker 1: is a married man with multiple children. Sexual impropriety is

511
00:24:32,720 --> 00:24:35,479
Speaker 1: not the only reason Larry has to leave BYU. In

512
00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,800
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy four, at a program he established for Idaho

513
00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: State University, a twelve year old boy died of dehydration

514
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 1: because the staff Larry had were not trained and didn't

515
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: know how to recognize the warning signs of dehydration. In

516
00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy five, the next year, a woman in one

517
00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: of Olsen's BYU classes died on a hike, again from dehydration.

518
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 1: As a spoiler, basically, everyone who dies in these programs

519
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:02,680
Speaker 1: dies from dehydration.

520
00:25:03,200 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 4: If you're going on.

521
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:06,120
Speaker 2: Into the desert. One of the first things you want

522
00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,400
Speaker 2: to do is like, note the signs of dehydration. Yes,

523
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:12,359
Speaker 2: And if you're teaching wilderness skills, yeah, if you're teaching

524
00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: wilderness skills, you one of the first Yeah, that's one

525
00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:18,080
Speaker 2: of the first things I would think. Yeah, how do

526
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: you not that? How do you not know that?

527
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: So there's this big belief and some of this does

528
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 1: come from the Mormon aspect of it all. There's this

529
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: this big belief in like that the value of this

530
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: program is not just that you're learning wilderness skills and

531
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,200
Speaker 1: that you're spending time in nature. It's that you are

532
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,919
Speaker 1: away completely from society for weeks at a time. So

533
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,439
Speaker 1: there's this real, real They don't want to sen they

534
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: don't want to call it early, they don't want to

535
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:48,360
Speaker 1: take anyone back. So they they push people, right, they

536
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,360
Speaker 1: do it either in a nice way or a mean way,

537
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:53,479
Speaker 1: but they always push people. And they don't have like

538
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: Larry's I'm sure great at starting fires and like whittling

539
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 1: arrowheads or whatever, but Larry does not have functional medical

540
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 1: training and does not clearly because a lady dies in

541
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: his class, doesn't know how to deal with dehydration.

542
00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, Mormonism kind of started out as like

543
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:18,240
Speaker 2: a this all hiking Yeah, well, yes, very it was

544
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 2: this sort of like anti establishment religion for a long time,

545
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 2: you know, they were very Yeah, fighting against the US

546
00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: governments are like kind of in there. Yeah, that's that's

547
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 2: a big part of their history.

548
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 1: You could say Larry is carrying out in the best

549
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:36,560
Speaker 1: traditions of the Mormon Church. Hiking and having sexual improprieties

550
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 1: with very young women. Is definitely doing a Joe Smith.

551
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 2: Well Brigham young, Brigham young and pretty violent things too. Yeah,

552
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,800
Speaker 2: although there's let's be real, there's lots and lots of

553
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: colleges in the United States named after people who did that,

554
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: you know, mass murder of people.

555
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 1: So that's right, I for one, and I've always been

556
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,640
Speaker 1: supportive of just renaming UCLA after the Green River Strangler.

557
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: I think we might as well lean into it, you know,

558
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 1: why not. It'll be great for the new podcast class

559
00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:08,879
Speaker 1: that they're that they're doing.

560
00:27:09,680 --> 00:27:12,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, yeah.

561
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:16,959
Speaker 1: Anyway, it was a true crime bit folks. So yeah,

562
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: he gets some people killed, Larry does, and byus like,

563
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 1: maybe we don't want you running our wilderness survival program anymore.

564
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 1: You kind of failed the survival thing. Right, at this point,

565
00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: two people have died, so Larry Larry bounces, but he's

566
00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:34,520
Speaker 1: able to escape any sort of blame for his role

567
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,840
Speaker 1: in these deaths. And I think part of this is

568
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 1: just the media environment at the time. There's not like

569
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: a lot of attention to the people who die in

570
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: his programs. It doesn't they don't become big stories. They're

571
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: kind of just framed as like, well, you know, sometimes

572
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: when people are out in the wilderness, bad things happen, right,

573
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:53,640
Speaker 1: So he doesn't get kind of tarred by the same

574
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,439
Speaker 1: brush as the people who come later are going to.

575
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 1: And he establishes several wilderness therapy programs elsewhere in the

576
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: United States, charging like five hundred bucks for a thirty

577
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,639
Speaker 1: day outing in most cases, so not a crazy amount

578
00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 1: of money, not cheap, but like you're not looking at

579
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 1: like someone mortgaging their house for these programs, which is

580
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: where things are going to end up some yeah. Yeah,

581
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: And so they're kind.

582
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: Of like expensive summer camps.

583
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,679
Speaker 1: Very expensive summer camp as much as like a nice

584
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:30,880
Speaker 1: used car, right, yeah, maybe maybe a really nice used car.

585
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,720
Speaker 1: That kind of depends on your definition of a nice

586
00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 1: used car. A nice used car, speaking of used cars.

587
00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: You know, who will sell you a car? Maybe our sponsors.

588
00:28:39,360 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: There's no way to know, not not on our end.

589
00:28:42,120 --> 00:28:52,360
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope it's a car. And we're back, Mara.

590
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: So we left off. Larry has has bounced and he

591
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,880
Speaker 1: is kind of seeding the country. He's becoming the Johnny

592
00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: apple Seed of doing his survival programs for teenagers, right.

593
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: And you know he also he writes a popular survival book.

594
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: And if you've seen the movie Jeremiah Johnson, he's the

595
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: expert survival consultant for that movie.

596
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: Which is that the movie that with The Gift, right

597
00:29:17,200 --> 00:29:17,520
Speaker 2: of the.

598
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 1: Ya of the guy like nodding and smiling.

599
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 2: Okay, I haven't seen it.

600
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: It's a great movie, and he was good at the

601
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:27,920
Speaker 1: skills part because that movie gets it all pretty right.

602
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I haven't. I haven't seen that movie. I've only

603
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: seen The Gift. But I know, like, this is the seventies, right,

604
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 2: I know there was a movie around that time called

605
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: Buffalo Rider, which was a true story about a guy

606
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: who went riding along on a buffalo. There was I

607
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,200
Speaker 2: think I feel like there was a lot of movies

608
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 2: like that. Yeah, the seventies.

609
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably not disconnected to this. Actually, like this kind

610
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: of moment in the culture may have a lot to

611
00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: these things may be somewhat interconnected.

612
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of the there was this thing, and this

613
00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 2: is something that you know, doesn't gets me gets me

614
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,360
Speaker 2: to sleep at night. Oh sorry, cat just jumped on

615
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 2: the keyboard. But everything's still good. It's it's kind of

616
00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: like one thing that helps me sleep at night is

617
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: knowing that a lot of the like you know, return

618
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,640
Speaker 2: shit is like a lot of stuff that we saw

619
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 2: in like the seventies and early eighties.

620
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:19,040
Speaker 1: Like it's just.

621
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 3: It's just like you know, the Jesus Freaks, people who like.

622
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, the Jesus Freaks, the Mythopoetic Men's movement, you know, yes,

623
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,360
Speaker 1: and the ras yeah yeah.

624
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,719
Speaker 2: The Unification Church, like a lot of that, you know.

625
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 2: So so I remind myself like, Okay, we got through

626
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 2: you know, we got through it then, you know, for

627
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 2: getting through it now.

628
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 1: James on our staff is having like a Twitter fight

629
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 1: with this want to be influencer who's tried to do

630
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 1: like back to the land home steading, like you need

631
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: to be using nonpowered tools in order to make sure

632
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: you're really you know, self reliant and he he films

633
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: these like shots of him shirtless using like rusted old tools,

634
00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:59,320
Speaker 1: like the wrong way, like the wood isn't positioned right

635
00:30:59,360 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 1: in the saw horse, and like he just butchered a

636
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: goat by cutting its head off with an axe, which

637
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 1: is not how you butcher ails. It is not how

638
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: you but unless it's like a chicken, but like you

639
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: don't even then yeah, it's it's yeah, you don't cut

640
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: their head off with an axe.

641
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 2: So much of a play, you know. So So anyway

642
00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 2: he was, he was He worked on Jeremiah Johnson as

643
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: like as like a.

644
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 1: He's their consultant on like how to do all the

645
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 1: ship that Jeremiah Johnson's doing. Okay, yeah, and then he

646
00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:36,960
Speaker 1: launches his own nonprofit, the Anasazi Foundation, which is where

647
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: he continues teaching survival skills to struggling children. Now, I

648
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: will say again, because we're going to talk about the

649
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: much more violent sort of descendants of his courses. Every

650
00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: source I found agrees the Anasazi Foundation is like pretty tame.

651
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: I've even found a number of kids on Reddit who

652
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: went talking about it as a positive experience. So I

653
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: don't want to well, we got to be critical of

654
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: Olsen because of the kids he got killed. I don't

655
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 1: want to like make it look like these are in

656
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,600
Speaker 1: the same basket as everything we're talking about today. They're

657
00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: just kind of in a line of dissent to each other.

658
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,160
Speaker 1: And a big part of why these kids I think

659
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 1: these kids are like in their teens, like you know,

660
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: twelve to eighteen generally.

661
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: Okay, so younger than the BYU kids.

662
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:19,840
Speaker 1: But younger than the BYU kids. We've gone down a

663
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:21,960
Speaker 1: step in age. But Olsen still he's not one of

664
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 1: these like you yell at the kids. He's His belief

665
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: is that you present them with choices and tools and

666
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,960
Speaker 1: education and you let them like make their own decisions

667
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: to build confidence and self reliance. So anyway, that's his program.

668
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,760
Speaker 1: Now come to nineteen eighties. Larry's method of pedagogy is

669
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 1: going to be replaced by a very different set of

670
00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,280
Speaker 1: tactics that will come to dominate the industry that springs

671
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 1: up afterwards. And that brings us back to Steve Cardasano.

672
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: Stephen Anthony Cartersana was born on Monday. Monday, I guess August.

673
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,479
Speaker 1: I don't know why I put the day in there.

674
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:55,520
Speaker 4: I usually don't do that.

675
00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 1: In August fifteenth, nineteen fifty five in Modesto, California. A.

676
00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: I have found several variants of his obituary, and they

677
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: all want the reader to know he was quote born

678
00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 1: to a Cherokee mother and Italian American father. Who can

679
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 1: give who gave him chiseled features and piercing eyes on

680
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: a Monday, On a Monday. Garfield would hate this.

681
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: Many more obituaries, Yeah, more obituaries should be like, you know,

682
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 2: by the way, he was super exotically fucking hot.

683
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, just four paragraphs on his cum gutters. By the way,

684
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: here's your fucking way kiss. So I will also note

685
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: here because I don't know. I'm not going to get

686
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 1: into the hole like litigating are people indigenous or not,

687
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: because that is a whole messy can of worms. I

688
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 1: will note generally, with everything he says about his childhood,

689
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 1: take everything this guy says with a grain of salt,

690
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:58,080
Speaker 1: because he's a professional fabuloust and liar, right, And I

691
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 1: mean that about every aspect of his child including what

692
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 1: I am about to quote next from his obituary. His

693
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,959
Speaker 1: childhood in Modesto, California, he has reported was not happy.

694
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: One parent was addicted to heroin the other beat him.

695
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:13,799
Speaker 1: He said his tormented youth motivated him to make a

696
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 1: career of helping troubled teens. And again I don't know

697
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 1: if that's true or not, it certainly has been some

698
00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:25,480
Speaker 1: people's life experiences. A Times article I read noted that

699
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: his mother, who was the one who was addicted to heroin,

700
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 1: died in a car accident when he was seventeen. Was

701
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: pretty consistent about saying that his home life with his

702
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:37,960
Speaker 1: dad was not nice. And in nineteen seventy four he

703
00:34:38,040 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: decides to enlist in the Air Force. He becomes a

704
00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: parachutist with the one hundred and twenty ninth Aerospace Rescue

705
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,600
Speaker 1: and Recovery Group. And this isn't like technically a special

706
00:34:48,640 --> 00:34:51,040
Speaker 1: Forces job, but it's one of those gigs that, like,

707
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,360
Speaker 1: very very few people qualify for. You're doing incredibly difficult,

708
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,400
Speaker 1: physically and mentally demanding stuff. It's not easy to be

709
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:00,560
Speaker 1: in this.

710
00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:02,560
Speaker 3: And there's proof that he actually was in it.

711
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he did this. He did this very much

712
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 1: for real, and he was one of a very small

713
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 1: number of people who were qualified to do this kind

714
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: of job. Multiple sources I have found note that Steve

715
00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 1: was quote one of the best trained survivalists in the military.

716
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: Although the providence of such sources I found that one

717
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: in the Brian County Patriot makes me suspect that this

718
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 1: quote may have come directly from Steve himself, So I

719
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:29,359
Speaker 1: don't know if he was actually one of the best

720
00:35:29,400 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 1: survivalists in the military.

721
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: So I actually went, Okay, this is a weird fact

722
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:41,120
Speaker 2: about me. So I went to something called Aviation Challenge

723
00:35:41,160 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 2: when I was ten or eleven because my whole family

724
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:48,439
Speaker 2: they're big into aviation. They love planes. I oh, yeah,

725
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 2: and my dad. My dad has a pilot's license and

726
00:35:53,520 --> 00:35:56,120
Speaker 2: wasn't a commercial pilot or anything that could fly a plane.

727
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:01,840
Speaker 2: And my grandfather did too, and and like, aviation is

728
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:04,759
Speaker 2: a big thing in our family. So I thought this

729
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 2: was going to be kind of like space camp but

730
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 2: with airplanes. But it was very, very, very very military based.

731
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: So we were on we were on like an old

732
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 2: Air Force base, and we got a lot of propaganda

733
00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,919
Speaker 2: and I was but my favorite part of it by

734
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 2: far were the survivalist parts. Yeah, and so I can

735
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 2: still remember some of it. I still know, like which

736
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: berries to eat if you know you're out in the woods. Now,

737
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: I wonder if like maybe this that's kind or not.

738
00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 6: Well.

739
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,920
Speaker 2: Also, I wonder, like, did this guy also like have

740
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 2: a hand in this, because it wasn't that far from

741
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 2: an host California.

742
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 1: He very well may have because he winds up during

743
00:36:43,760 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: his time in the military, he spends a period of

744
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 1: time as the instructor and instructor at the fair Child

745
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: Air Force Base survival school.

746
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wonder if maybe he like helped develop

747
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 2: their curriculum.

748
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: There's a good chance he did. Survival stuff is interesting

749
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: because you have two kinds of people who teach survival class.

750
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 1: You have the people who really know their ship and

751
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:04,399
Speaker 1: you have the people who are convinced they know their

752
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,400
Speaker 1: ship and don't. And you, as the student, until you've

753
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: spent a lot of time in the woods, really can't

754
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: know which they are. My little brother because he grew

755
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,280
Speaker 1: up on a military base in Okinawa, did a survival

756
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:19,120
Speaker 1: course that was like taught by the Marines on base

757
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 1: and at one point they, I don't know why you

758
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: keep coming back to goats, but they like slaughter a

759
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: goat to like walk you through had a butcher and animal,

760
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:29,120
Speaker 1: and they like fuck up killing it and traumatiz all

761
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:34,600
Speaker 1: these kids because they just again as somebody who's who

762
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 1: slaughters and butcher's animals, Like, I don't know how you

763
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: fuck that up as a marine. What are you guys doing?

764
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, definitely like yeah, trauma, Yeah, we

765
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 2: to traumatize everything budget children.

766
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:51,879
Speaker 1: I know, they they got the experience right one way

767
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: or the other. They're learning about survival.

768
00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,719
Speaker 2: They learned what not to do by watching, you know,

769
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 2: horrific animal abuse.

770
00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: The lesson today was don't trust a man about survival

771
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: just because he's a marine. Yeah, uh man uh childhood

772
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:15,719
Speaker 1: so speak. I guess this all kind of goes to

773
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: buttress the point that these guys, there's cool people who

774
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,239
Speaker 1: teach kids survival, but there's always going to be a

775
00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 1: high ratio of like maniacs in that profession too, which

776
00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 1: I think all of my friends who teach primitive skills

777
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 1: would agree with that statement. So yeah, he goes to anyway,

778
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,759
Speaker 1: we're talking about Steve Cartesano. So he gets out of

779
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,719
Speaker 1: the Air Force after possibly setting up the program that

780
00:38:41,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: Mara Wilson will use years later, and he makes friends

781
00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: with another airman who's a Mormon and converts him to

782
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:52,239
Speaker 1: the Mormon church. So he is a Mormon convert and

783
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: he moves to Utah to attend BYU. Now he is

784
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: not a good student. This is not a guy who

785
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: was made for classrooms and drops out a couple of

786
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: years in. But before he drops out, like every maniac

787
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,840
Speaker 1: we cover, he tries his hand breaking into Hollywood. Crackowes

788
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: he studied film and wrote a screenplay about the exploits

789
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 1: of a crack Air Force rescue squad whose hero was

790
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: a part Italian, part Cherokee Mormon adventurer named Steve Montana.

791
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 8: Steve Montana very soon himself with a fucking Indiana Jones

792
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 8: ass name. Oh man, it would be better if you'd

793
00:39:42,080 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 8: pick Montana. Steve Monta Steve, Yeah, yeah, Montana. Steve sounds

794
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 8: like a guy who's going to teach me where to

795
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 8: find water in the desert.

796
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,719
Speaker 1: Steve. Steve Montana is going to sell me bills at

797
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: a truck stop.

798
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. There's there's a difference between the two of them.

799
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 2: One of them seems like he might actually be fun, like, yeah,

800
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: have some crazy stories, you know.

801
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: Oh yeah. The other you'll hear some shit from Montana. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

802
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: Steve Montana. Other people will tell you.

803
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: Of Tony Montana.

804
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:14,160
Speaker 1: Like that.

805
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 2: You know, that's where my mind goes.

806
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,479
Speaker 1: Tony Montana's like discount Kirkland brand brother. Yes, exactly, He's

807
00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: not into coke, but he's got a big pil So

808
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:34,000
Speaker 1: Steve leaves the Air Force in eighty four, and this

809
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: is a time when the United States is kind of

810
00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: sailing through one of our semi regular We've talked about

811
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: all of the different things that are just kind of

812
00:40:41,280 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: current waves in American culture. Well, this is when we're

813
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 1: really hitting a big stride in our moral panic about

814
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: drugs and youth delinquency. Now, from what I can tell,

815
00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: Steve was a conservative guy. He converts to the Mormon Church,

816
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:56,960
Speaker 1: and he is a believer in the idea that this

817
00:40:57,040 --> 00:40:59,680
Speaker 1: country is headed to Hell in a handbasket because children

818
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: aren't disciplined properly. So, while attending BYU, he had become

819
00:41:04,080 --> 00:41:06,480
Speaker 1: aware of the legacy of Larry Elsen, who left not

820
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 1: that far before to start the Anastazi Foundation. Steve started

821
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 1: studying his program, Outward Bound and other similar wilderness schools

822
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,239
Speaker 1: that existed in the Salt Lake area, and he concluded

823
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 1: they all had a massive problem. None of them abused children.

824
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty eight, Steve launched the Challenger Foundation, a

825
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:29,120
Speaker 1: wilderness school with an educational syllabus patterned directly off of

826
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:32,800
Speaker 1: what Steve could remember from his own experiences at boot camp.

827
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,120
Speaker 1: The goal, in his words, was to wear kids down

828
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 1: quote until they're good again.

829
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:39,880
Speaker 6: Jesus.

830
00:41:40,880 --> 00:41:43,319
Speaker 2: So this is something too, is these people never have

831
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 2: any experience.

832
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: With child development here.

833
00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: No, it's it's it's like, yeah, there's nothing, there's no

834
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,799
Speaker 2: child development, there's no yeah, there's none of these things.

835
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,320
Speaker 2: It's wearing them down because because that's what's going to

836
00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 2: stop the crack epidemic is wearing children down.

837
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,919
Speaker 1: Yeah. Day five of the Air Force Rescue training does

838
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: not like break in order to teach you how children's

839
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:07,640
Speaker 1: minds work.

840
00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 2: And it's nice, it's it's yeah, it's it's very it

841
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 2: is very strong. I mean, I was gonna say, it's

842
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: very strange when people think that you can become an

843
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,319
Speaker 2: expert on just by But then I was like, well,

844
00:42:18,360 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: I probably shouldn't talk because I'm a fucking forward child

845
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,920
Speaker 2: actor with a BFA and drama and I'm talking like

846
00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 2: I'm an expert on shit, and you know I'm not.

847
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,800
Speaker 2: But at least I'm not trying to break children down.

848
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: I think you don't have to be an expert to

849
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: be like, well, if you're taking children into the desert

850
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: for weeks at a time, you should probably know something

851
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: number one about children and number two about wilderness medicine.

852
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:43,440
Speaker 1: Those two things should probably be something you have a

853
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: formal skill in, as opposed to just kind of winging

854
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 1: it well.

855
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 2: Also, if you work with kids, you learn very quickly

856
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 2: that the ones who are acting out, You learn very

857
00:42:55,080 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 2: quickly that there are different reasons why kids act out. Yeah,

858
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: and I mean I think that that it should be

859
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,480
Speaker 2: common sense, but it's not like I worked with kids

860
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:04,879
Speaker 2: and I knew very quickly. Who are the kids who

861
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: were spoiled and entitled and expected, you know, the world

862
00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 2: zoo bend to their will? Who are the kids who

863
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: are going through a lot of difficulties at home. Who

864
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 2: are the kids who maybe just learned a little bit differently.

865
00:43:15,000 --> 00:43:17,880
Speaker 2: Who are the kids who you know just were trying

866
00:43:17,880 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 2: to make everybody laugh. Who are the kids who you

867
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: know didn't like doing their own work but liked helping

868
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: other people. Like the different reasons that kids are quote

869
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: bad are, you know, their myriad and you can't just

870
00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 2: break them all down because what works with disciplining.

871
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:33,040
Speaker 3: One kid is not going to discipline the other.

872
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: No, but that's very much the that's very much the

873
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: attitude that this program is going to have, which is

874
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: like all kids who are bad need the same thing,

875
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,880
Speaker 1: and that thing is to be screamed at in the

876
00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,799
Speaker 1: desert by a man who could get literally no other

877
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: job than screaming at children in the desert. Right, I'm

878
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,319
Speaker 1: not really exaggerating there. Here's how John Krakauer described his

879
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,560
Speaker 1: educational tactics in an article for Outside. Cardisato applied what

880
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: he liked to call street smarts to problem kids, strip searches,

881
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: and military haircuts. He adopted a drill sergeant style of speech,

882
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: which required yes sir answers. Rules were strict and heavily enforced.

883
00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,120
Speaker 1: A girl caught saying I'm sorry instead of I apologize

884
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,759
Speaker 1: would be punished by carrying a football sized chunk of

885
00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:18,359
Speaker 1: kalmanure all day in her backpack. A boy caught eating

886
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 1: raw oatmeal instead of cooking it would have his oatmeal

887
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: ration taken away. Good behavior for challenger students was rewarded

888
00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:26,480
Speaker 1: with canned peaches, raisin, or cinnamon.

889
00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 2: It's just like the specificity of it. I apologize, Yeah,

890
00:44:33,080 --> 00:44:34,800
Speaker 2: I apologize instead of I'm sorry.

891
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,160
Speaker 3: Like, what's the what's what's the difference here?

892
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: It's just it's just standardization of yeah.

893
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. I hate the whole to the like, no, don't

894
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,680
Speaker 1: say you're sorry, say you apologize, and like, here's my

895
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:50,000
Speaker 1: fucking witty reason for why you shouldn't say sorry, Like

896
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: I don't give a shit, man, you know what the

897
00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,439
Speaker 1: kid meant? Yeah, exactly, the complicate communication. It's hard enough

898
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 1: as it is.

899
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:56,640
Speaker 6: Kids.

900
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,799
Speaker 2: If there's one man the famously you know, famously eloquent teenagers,

901
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 2: you know, that's the thing. Teenagers are very they are

902
00:45:06,480 --> 00:45:09,399
Speaker 2: having they literally have trouble expressing themselves. Now I'm having

903
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: trouble expressing myself because thinking about this, expressing myselves, well,

904
00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 2: expressing myself, because this piss me off.

905
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:18,480
Speaker 1: Why don't we take a break and let our advertisers

906
00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 1: express themselves.

907
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:21,040
Speaker 3: Let's do it.

908
00:45:25,560 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 1: Ah, my goodness. They really had a lot to say,

909
00:45:29,239 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: mostly about why you should buy a Chevy. You know, Chevy.

910
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 1: Are you drunk enough for a Chevy? Anyway, we're back,

911
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: So let's talk a little bit about boot camps.

912
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 9: Right.

913
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 1: Thanks to cultural touchstones like the film Full Metal Jacket,

914
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 1: the term boot camp has kind of a magic effect

915
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:49,399
Speaker 1: on the minds of a certain type of American. There's

916
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: this this tacit understanding, this widespread belief that, like, if

917
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:56,799
Speaker 1: children are misbehaving and traditional methods won't work, forcing them

918
00:45:56,840 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: into something that mimics military discipline will fix their bad behavior.

919
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 1: I had a cousin who got sent to like a

920
00:46:02,920 --> 00:46:06,640
Speaker 1: military boot camp style school, and as a spoiler, it

921
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:08,759
Speaker 1: did not stop them from doing the things that got

922
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:12,000
Speaker 1: them sent there. These programs don't actually tend to work

923
00:46:12,280 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: very well, but there's this like magical belief that, like,

924
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 1: because it's a boot camp, that's that's what. If it

925
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 1: works for the army, it's got to work for small children.

926
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:20,359
Speaker 7: Right.

927
00:46:20,480 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: The thing is, the army has a I mean, I

928
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 2: guess in some ways, the army has a purpose or

929
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 2: a goal. Like there are people there who I mean

930
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: are either they're all adults, they're adults. Well, I mean,

931
00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,400
Speaker 2: it hasn't always been that they joined voluntarily, but people

932
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the people there are there because they

933
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 2: want you to make money.

934
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: Yes, or now at least today, they're generally making a choice.

935
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,439
Speaker 1: They get misinformed about aspects of that, like recruiters lie

936
00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: a lot, but like generally an informed choice, or at

937
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 1: least semi semi informed.

938
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

939
00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:58,360
Speaker 1: The other thing about it is that, like, boot camps

940
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: don't work for the military quite the way conservatives often

941
00:47:01,680 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 1: think they do. First off, when it comes to how

942
00:47:04,080 --> 00:47:06,280
Speaker 1: these programs work in general, I found a two thousand

943
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:08,800
Speaker 1: and five analysis of several studies on the efficacy of

944
00:47:08,880 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: boot camp style programs that noted no significant differences and

945
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:17,400
Speaker 1: recidivism from students subjected to mock military programs. There is

946
00:47:17,520 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: zero rigorous data showing that hiring a bunch of x

947
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,360
Speaker 1: cons and former addicts and having them pretend to be

948
00:47:22,440 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 1: ari ermy and like beat up a bunch of captive

949
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,000
Speaker 1: children helps those kids in any way, right, doing a

950
00:47:29,360 --> 00:47:31,760
Speaker 1: one thing. If you watch Full Metal Jacket, the movie

951
00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: does not end with that program working out great. Like

952
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: the point of that is not, Wow, this is a

953
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,759
Speaker 1: great way to help us struggle with your child.

954
00:47:41,600 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, give your child that thousand yard stare.

955
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 1: That's what happens to the drill instructor guys. Yeah, that's

956
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: it's also this kind of movie image that again a

957
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 1: lot of conservatives latch onto a boot camp where like

958
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: people are being thrown in the mud and like, you know,

959
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 1: shaken and screamed at and insulted in creative ways by

960
00:48:01,239 --> 00:48:06,680
Speaker 1: these like incredibly harsh and utterly humorless men like It

961
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 1: is debatable as to whether or not that works very

962
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 1: well for soldiers. Over the years, there have been repeated

963
00:48:13,440 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 1: incidents where brutal training methods, always justified by the need

964
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 1: to ensure discipline for units going into combat, has instead

965
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 1: gotten trainees killed. The best known of these was the

966
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,400
Speaker 1: Ribbon Creek incident from nineteen fifty six, in which a

967
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: staff sergeant, trying to punish a poorly behaved platoon, marched

968
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: them into a swamp, where six of them drowned.

969
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,600
Speaker 7: Oh my god, you're not very combat ready if you're dead, guys.

970
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's this is yeah, I mean that

971
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: how do you even it? Just how do you justify that?

972
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 2: It's just like, what was this that was just wanted to?

973
00:48:50,480 --> 00:48:53,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a major question that was asked because

974
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 1: there was a lot of people who defended this within

975
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,439
Speaker 1: the military as like, well, this is the only way

976
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: to do it, and a lot of a lot of

977
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: thankfully a lot arge number of people who are like, well, no,

978
00:49:01,960 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 1: clearly we have made a mistake. If we have drowned

979
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: six marines by making them walk into a swamp, this

980
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,760
Speaker 1: is not good training. And this does that disaster leads

981
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 1: to the first big visual professionalization of the process of

982
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: like training marines. This is where they start like the

983
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 1: modern drill instructor system right. And this is also there

984
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 1: starts to be more of an emphasis on utilizing psychology

985
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: and leadership dynamics as opposed to pure physical coercion. This

986
00:49:28,680 --> 00:49:31,399
Speaker 1: is not an evenly successful effort, but this is kind

987
00:49:31,440 --> 00:49:33,279
Speaker 1: of when you start getting a lot of people in

988
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 1: the military being like, actually, maybe if we try to

989
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,880
Speaker 1: understand our recruits and the ways in which they're different

990
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 1: and like the ways in which people respond to leadership

991
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,920
Speaker 1: rather than just like beating them, will train better soldiers.

992
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 1: On March second, nineteen eighty eight, nineteen year old Lee

993
00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 1: Mareki was engaged in a training exercise for the Rescue

994
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: Swimmer School program. This is part of the US Navy.

995
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: This is a difficult test to pass. Only about half

996
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 1: of the student sudents did. Mareki failed the test the

997
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:04,919
Speaker 1: first time, re entered the training area the next day,

998
00:50:04,960 --> 00:50:08,279
Speaker 1: and failed again, at which point his instructors forced him

999
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:11,000
Speaker 1: back into the water to try again and held him

1000
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:13,720
Speaker 1: down while his fellow recruits were ordered to turn around

1001
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 1: and sing the national anthem. Mareki drowned, and his death

1002
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 1: created another legal nightmare for the Navy, which again instituted

1003
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 1: changing to their training methods in order to prevent the

1004
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,080
Speaker 1: same thing from happening again. Now, I bring these incidents

1005
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 1: up because it's worth seeing that these are two military

1006
00:50:29,600 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: boot camp incidents in which the brutality of training leads

1007
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,680
Speaker 1: to people dying, and they both lead to both and

1008
00:50:36,800 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 1: immediate severe backlashes and changes to the way that training

1009
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: is done. Because number one, the military has a degree

1010
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: of accountability both to like civilian leadership, and you've got

1011
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: officers and people who are overseeing these programs. And in

1012
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,760
Speaker 1: the military, when you see we're killing people with our training,

1013
00:50:55,160 --> 00:50:57,800
Speaker 1: there are responsible people who are generally like, well, we

1014
00:50:57,840 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: should make some alterations to.

1015
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 2: It, right, Well, these are public, these are public institutions.

1016
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,399
Speaker 1: Right right. It also it becomes a media nightmare for them. Yeah,

1017
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:08,000
Speaker 1: and so you have to have some sort of like

1018
00:51:08,120 --> 00:51:11,839
Speaker 1: public example of how we've altered the program. All of

1019
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: that's going to be absent from these wilderness rehab facilities.

1020
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: They are my point is not. The military does such

1021
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: a great job of not of like fixing, you know,

1022
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 1: problems in boot camp. My point is that the military

1023
00:51:23,360 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 1: does something when shit like this happens, and there's going

1024
00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 1: to be significantly less oversight for these programs that only

1025
00:51:30,800 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: children are parts of, right, which is also the.

1026
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 2: American idea of if it's a private you know, well

1027
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,279
Speaker 2: it's it's anything that's private, you know, sure, let them,

1028
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:42,560
Speaker 2: you know, discriminate against these people. Sure, let them do

1029
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,239
Speaker 2: these These are private groups, you know, business they want,

1030
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 2: private businesses can do whatever they want.

1031
00:51:47,400 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, When we privatize the army, finally, finally,

1032
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,040
Speaker 1: military contractors will be free to march recruits into the

1033
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:58,360
Speaker 1: swamp again. That's when we'll be a free country.

1034
00:51:58,719 --> 00:52:03,480
Speaker 2: When a free country makes dreamed up make Americans march

1035
00:52:03,520 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 2: into swamps again. Exactly.

1036
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:08,640
Speaker 1: Just Thomas Jefferson's sketching pictures of drowning marines as a

1037
00:52:08,680 --> 00:52:10,759
Speaker 1: tear rolls down his cheek. I mean.

1038
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 3: There was a lot of swamp land in that area

1039
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 3: at that time. Yeah.

1040
00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: So when he starts Challenger, I think it's technically called

1041
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,880
Speaker 1: Challenger too, but fuck it, we're gonna call it Challenger.

1042
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 1: Steve's first major innovation was the idea that the entire process.

1043
00:52:27,760 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 2: So call it something challenger like a like.

1044
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 1: Not a great names. Yeah yeah, that's why you put

1045
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:36,680
Speaker 1: the two on.

1046
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 2: There, right, like, yeah, that's that's that's a this is

1047
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:42,959
Speaker 2: a big thing, it's not. Yeah. Yeah.

1048
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 1: So Steve's first innovation when he starts this is you've

1049
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,440
Speaker 1: got to be really hostile to these kids. Now, this

1050
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:52,239
Speaker 1: starts before the course eventually begins, because he's the one

1051
00:52:52,280 --> 00:52:54,719
Speaker 1: who comes up with the idea of and basically he

1052
00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:58,600
Speaker 1: starts as an upsell. Hey, parents, you've decided you're going

1053
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 1: to send your troubled kid this wilderness rehab program. They're

1054
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:04,440
Speaker 1: going to spend months alone in the desert where they

1055
00:53:04,480 --> 00:53:06,759
Speaker 1: will be miserable. They're not going to want to go.

1056
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: You don't want to just like break this to them

1057
00:53:08,800 --> 00:53:11,200
Speaker 1: at dinner days ahead of time. They're going to be angry,

1058
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: they might run away from home, they might flip out.

1059
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,160
Speaker 1: You don't want to have to drive them to it

1060
00:53:15,200 --> 00:53:17,000
Speaker 1: because they'll be pissed at you the whole time. It'll

1061
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: be a miserable drive. What if you let what if

1062
00:53:20,239 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 1: you pay me and I have some big armed men

1063
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:24,800
Speaker 1: kidnap your children.

1064
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 4: He's the guys the guy who invented this.

1065
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is the guy who invented this, specifically his innovation.

1066
00:53:31,239 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 6: Huh.

1067
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:32,279
Speaker 2: I remember I.

1068
00:53:32,239 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 3: Thought I heard that Synanon used to do this too.

1069
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,920
Speaker 1: Well, Synanon did this to like members of the coult

1070
00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:38,640
Speaker 1: But you're not going and.

1071
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 2: You can not actual children.

1072
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:43,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, not that I am aware of actual children.

1073
00:53:44,200 --> 00:53:46,040
Speaker 4: So he's the bastard that invented this ship.

1074
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 1: He's the master that invented the ship for these camps.

1075
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: Right where you are kidnapping a kid to take them

1076
00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: to a wilderness rehab facility.

1077
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's usually in the middle of the night.

1078
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:55,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, this.

1079
00:53:57,040 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 4: I'm like sitting silently during this episode. This happened to

1080
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 4: my child, her best friend, and I didn't know, and

1081
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 4: I didn't know where she was. I did not know

1082
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:06,640
Speaker 4: where she was. Her parents would not answer any of

1083
00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 4: my messages. It took almost a year before I figured

1084
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:11,600
Speaker 4: out that that's what had happened to her. And she

1085
00:54:11,680 --> 00:54:14,239
Speaker 4: was my closest friend when I was a teenager, and

1086
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,319
Speaker 4: I have no idea where she was, and I it's

1087
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:18,359
Speaker 4: like six months ago. I went back and looked at

1088
00:54:18,400 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 4: our old Facebook messages and it's just me being like

1089
00:54:21,320 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 4: where are you, where did you go?

1090
00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 2: Why did you leave?

1091
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 4: So fuck this guy?

1092
00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, this.

1093
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: Guy is also personally responsible for destroying the teenage yeers

1094
00:54:33,680 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 2: of people I know as well. So seriously, fuck this guy.

1095
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,279
Speaker 1: He specifically had a devastating impact on like southern California,

1096
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: which is where a lot.

1097
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,480
Speaker 4: Of it, which is where I grew up think you

1098
00:54:44,719 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 4: say me too, me too?

1099
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 3: So yeah, a lot of people.

1100
00:54:48,320 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, as we'll talk about We'll talk about some of

1101
00:54:50,840 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 1: this in part too, but it's a big part of it.

1102
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: Why Southern California particularly is California has fairly strict laws

1103
00:54:58,120 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: on what you, as a parent can do to your

1104
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: kid and what kind of programs you can put them in,

1105
00:55:02,600 --> 00:55:05,520
Speaker 1: what kind of discipline you can subject them in through

1106
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: like a program, right, Like there are there's a strict

1107
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,279
Speaker 1: limitations on like what sort of facilities you can send

1108
00:55:12,360 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 1: your kid to against their will in California. Those laws

1109
00:55:15,760 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: don't exist in Utah, So you get the kid out,

1110
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: and you know, that's why all of this For one thing,

1111
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:25,200
Speaker 1: that's why all of this happens in Utah. But that's

1112
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: why there's a lot of like Californians because California has

1113
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: like stricter laws that kind of limit parents more.

1114
00:55:32,680 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 4: It was the exact scenario.

1115
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,239
Speaker 1: That's the laboratory of the States working as intended, the

1116
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:40,640
Speaker 1: laboratory of democracy working as intended. Yeah again, our beautiful

1117
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 1: founding fathers dreamed all of this up. So Steve's plan

1118
00:55:44,719 --> 00:55:47,760
Speaker 1: is we cut out, you know the problem of parents

1119
00:55:47,760 --> 00:55:49,920
Speaker 1: having to confront their kids about what they're doing to

1120
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 1: them by allowing and again when I say these are

1121
00:55:52,800 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 1: armed men. The particular guy he had do a lot

1122
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: of this was nicknamed Horsehair and always carried like a

1123
00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:02,239
Speaker 1: fourteen inch bowie knife on his belt and looked like

1124
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:05,719
Speaker 1: a character from Jeremiah Johnson. And to give you an

1125
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:08,600
Speaker 1: idea of like how this kind of went down, I

1126
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:10,520
Speaker 1: want to first play you an account from a modern

1127
00:56:10,560 --> 00:56:13,120
Speaker 1: attendee of one of these schools. This is from the

1128
00:56:13,200 --> 00:56:16,600
Speaker 1: TikTok account of the Misfit Heroes podcast, which is where

1129
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: I found this, And this is just someone who went

1130
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 1: to one of these schools, obviously after Steve Cartazano's era,

1131
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:24,359
Speaker 1: but it gives you an idea of how these kind

1132
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:27,760
Speaker 1: of this kind of add on program worked.

1133
00:56:28,160 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 10: I was woken up at about two oh seven am

1134
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 10: to my dad turning on my light and telling me

1135
00:56:33,520 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 10: that it was time to leave. I remember rolling over

1136
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 10: and looking at him and immediately thinking that he was

1137
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,960
Speaker 10: trying to get me up for school, and like starting

1138
00:56:39,960 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 10: to come up with excuses why I should be allowed

1139
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 10: to stay home. There was a woman on the side

1140
00:56:45,680 --> 00:56:47,719
Speaker 10: of my bed who pulled me up and told me

1141
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 10: that it was time to get dressed and put on

1142
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 10: my shoes and go. They basically dressed me, and each

1143
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 10: one grabbed one of my arms and started walking me

1144
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 10: out my door and up the stairs toward our back door,

1145
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:02,400
Speaker 10: and time I couldn't see my dad again, and I

1146
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:04,480
Speaker 10: was yelling for him, and one of them told me,

1147
00:57:04,520 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 10: your dad isn't going to respond to you anymore. And

1148
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 10: I asked why and why this was happening, and they

1149
00:57:10,880 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 10: said that they were taking me because I didn't deserve

1150
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:15,560
Speaker 10: to be with.

1151
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:16,600
Speaker 4: My family anymore.

1152
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,320
Speaker 10: And as I was being dragged out the door, I

1153
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 10: remember looking over my shoulder and seeing my dad standing

1154
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:24,800
Speaker 10: at our kitchen sink with his back to me, just

1155
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 10: staring out the window, completely ignoring me.

1156
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's I exactly what happened to my friend.

1157
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,320
Speaker 3: Yep, yeah, it's I can't imagine. I don't know.

1158
00:57:37,040 --> 00:57:38,840
Speaker 2: I do think that a lot of parents are kind

1159
00:57:38,840 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 2: of brainwashed in this too. They don't necessarily and I

1160
00:57:42,880 --> 00:57:45,880
Speaker 2: mean some of them, I think just don't give a shit.

1161
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:47,840
Speaker 2: And some of them, I think, do honestly believe that

1162
00:57:47,920 --> 00:57:50,920
Speaker 2: this is the best thing for their child. But like

1163
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:56,520
Speaker 2: I can't imagine like letting somebody like man handle like

1164
00:57:56,760 --> 00:57:59,520
Speaker 2: I don't even have children, But if somebody were man

1165
00:57:59,560 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 2: handling like a child that I care about, like a

1166
00:58:01,880 --> 00:58:04,479
Speaker 2: friend's kid or my nieces and nephews, like I would

1167
00:58:04,480 --> 00:58:05,480
Speaker 2: want to fucking murder them.

1168
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 4: Also, the trauma, like most of the time it happens

1169
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:10,439
Speaker 4: when they're in the middle of the night, when you're

1170
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 4: step Yeah, how does that help? How does that help?

1171
00:58:14,400 --> 00:58:16,600
Speaker 1: You're disoriented, you're not able to fight back?

1172
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 5: Is no, no, no, I understand how it helps them,

1173
00:58:18,800 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 5: But how does that help a child who's going on

1174
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 5: That's not the point up any sense of calm or

1175
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 5: peace that they might have.

1176
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, no. The point the last concern of

1177
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: everyone involved in this is what's best for the kids. Yeah,

1178
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: it's it's it's pretty vile stuff. I do think a

1179
00:58:37,160 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 1: lot because my mom was certainly not against physical punishment, right,

1180
00:58:41,720 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 1: Like she was a spanker for sure, And uh, I

1181
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:48,640
Speaker 1: don't know if she would have done something like this

1182
00:58:48,720 --> 00:58:50,360
Speaker 1: for I think the only reason I know that she

1183
00:58:50,400 --> 00:58:52,240
Speaker 1: wouldn't have is just because of the expense. We never

1184
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: would have had the money for these programs. But like,

1185
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:56,960
Speaker 1: had she had the money, I don't know that if

1186
00:58:57,000 --> 00:58:58,919
Speaker 1: this is something she would have ruled out. I think

1187
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 1: because she did fun the mentally believe if kids are misbehaving,

1188
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:04,400
Speaker 1: the best thing to do is like put them through

1189
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:04,959
Speaker 1: boot camp.

1190
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:06,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that.

1191
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:08,160
Speaker 2: I do think that there are a lot of parents

1192
00:59:08,200 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 2: who genuinely think like I, that genuinely think this is

1193
00:59:11,560 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 2: the best thing for their kids. But but yeah, but

1194
00:59:15,680 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 2: I just feel like I I yeah, I don't know.

1195
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:22,360
Speaker 3: I just I just don't. I feel like, how can

1196
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:24,640
Speaker 3: you see that and not think this is fucked up?

1197
00:59:24,800 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 1: It's because they all hip and I know people who

1198
00:59:27,240 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: who can honestly say, if I hadn't joined the military,

1199
00:59:29,840 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 1: I would have like killed myself, right but with like

1200
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 1: drugs and that, like I was, I was on a

1201
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: bad road and like I got my life in order

1202
00:59:36,160 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 1: as a result of that. The thing is, I also

1203
00:59:38,800 --> 00:59:40,800
Speaker 1: I think because I've known a lot more soldiers than

1204
00:59:40,840 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: most people I know, just as many people who committed

1205
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: suicide during train in some cases during training, and in

1206
00:59:47,440 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: some cases as just as a result of their service,

1207
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: right right, So I certainly wouldn't say the military is

1208
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: a great way to get your life in order. It's

1209
00:59:55,200 --> 00:59:58,360
Speaker 1: just like, yes, some number of people the discipline is helpful,

1210
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,320
Speaker 1: But when you're looking at the kind of roulette wheel

1211
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:03,960
Speaker 1: that is putting someone through that and how it winds

1212
01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 1: up for them, the uh, it's certainly not something I

1213
01:00:06,760 --> 01:00:09,040
Speaker 1: would want to like spin on a bunch of children. Right.

1214
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure there are some kids who this got them

1215
01:00:11,640 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: out of a bad loop, but I don't think that

1216
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,080
Speaker 1: number of kids is higher than the number who died

1217
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:18,800
Speaker 1: and were traumatized forever. Right, And I.

1218
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 3: Was sure we'll get to I'm sure we'll get to

1219
01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:22,080
Speaker 3: this later.

1220
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,959
Speaker 2: But like the rate of people who've attempted suicide after

1221
01:00:26,000 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 2: going through these programs is just anecdotally, you know it

1222
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:33,320
Speaker 2: from people I've known, it's you know, it's it's incredibly high.

1223
01:00:33,360 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 2: And it is a lifelong trauma.

1224
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:36,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like it is.

1225
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:36,919
Speaker 2: It stays with.

1226
01:00:36,840 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 1: You, yeah yeah, and it's cool and good. So yeah,

1227
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,640
Speaker 1: I want to show you guys next kind of what

1228
01:00:43,680 --> 01:00:48,360
Speaker 1: the kidnapping process is, like, how they kind of when

1229
01:00:48,400 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: these programs kind of make like their their media ploy

1230
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:55,680
Speaker 1: to parents, like this is how they depict the parents.

1231
01:00:55,720 --> 01:00:57,760
Speaker 1: I want you to keep in mind what that kid

1232
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,280
Speaker 1: just said about the experience of being kidnapp And then

1233
01:01:00,280 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to have Sophie play you a segment from

1234
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 1: the Doctor Phil Show. Until a bunch of kids died

1235
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: and their parents sued these facilities. Doctor Phil loved sending

1236
01:01:10,240 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: children to these wilderness camps. He was a major public

1237
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,360
Speaker 1: advocate for how well these worked, and he did a

1238
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:17,920
Speaker 1: lot of He had a lot of segments where he

1239
01:01:17,960 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 1: would send kids to these camps. And so they have

1240
01:01:21,440 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: one where they film like this kidnapping And I want

1241
01:01:24,800 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 1: to be clear here I played the kid's experience of this,

1242
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,680
Speaker 1: which I think was pretty ugly first, because that's the

1243
01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 1: reality of the experience. What you're seeing here is how

1244
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:39,439
Speaker 1: they dress up the kidnapping for Doctor Phil's audience. Right,

1245
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:42,320
Speaker 1: So keep in mind this is an advertisement, right, This

1246
01:01:42,440 --> 01:01:45,200
Speaker 1: is not as clean as the real process was.

1247
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 6: Just after three thirty in the morning, we're down the

1248
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 6: street from the family home. We've been texting with April

1249
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,160
Speaker 6: and she's ready for us to come. It's a big

1250
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 6: day for Anna Lisa. She's on her way to the

1251
01:01:54,040 --> 01:01:55,000
Speaker 6: Doctor Phil show.

1252
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 4: That I love you, decided to get you some help

1253
01:02:01,600 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 4: and we're.

1254
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 2: Going to the Doctor Phil.

1255
01:02:07,040 --> 01:02:10,600
Speaker 6: My name is Mike and this is Laura, And let

1256
01:02:10,600 --> 01:02:14,880
Speaker 6: me explain your situation. You've actually got a trip planned

1257
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 6: to Hollywood. We'll go into Doctor Phil today. Your family

1258
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,920
Speaker 6: has decided that away and screaming actually isn't going to

1259
01:02:27,960 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 6: help this one.

1260
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,240
Speaker 1: So you see what they're You see what they're doing here, right,

1261
01:02:32,800 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 1: They're they're portraying this is like you've got like the

1262
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,200
Speaker 1: calmest guy you can in here, and he's trying to

1263
01:02:38,200 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: have a conversation. Like they're really playing up, like how

1264
01:02:40,600 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 1: out of control this girl is? She really needs, you know,

1265
01:02:43,800 --> 01:02:46,560
Speaker 1: Doctor Phil. And then this intervention that Phil's going to

1266
01:02:46,600 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: send her to.

1267
01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:50,640
Speaker 5: Right, if a man came into my bedroom in the

1268
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 5: middle of the night and I was trying to become

1269
01:02:52,920 --> 01:03:00,120
Speaker 5: a conversation a lot, a lot louder than this gird saying.

1270
01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:02,600
Speaker 1: Is very one like one like second of that guy's

1271
01:03:02,680 --> 01:03:06,320
Speaker 1: voice and I come up shooting. That's how I'm responding.

1272
01:03:06,880 --> 01:03:10,760
Speaker 5: Whatever I can grab man, you're going down.

1273
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,520
Speaker 2: This is like we were like the kids, like like

1274
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 2: like we're probably like like Robert, I think we're about

1275
01:03:16,560 --> 01:03:19,040
Speaker 2: the same age, Like we we were the children who

1276
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 2: were taught stranger danger. Yes, right, you know like the

1277
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:25,280
Speaker 2: first thing, a strange man. Yeah, don't go with a

1278
01:03:25,320 --> 01:03:27,840
Speaker 2: stranger A strange man comes into your bedrooms.

1279
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 1: Mixed signals from the boomers.

1280
01:03:30,360 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 2: I was like, no, this is like the nightmares I

1281
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 2: had about like the Polyclause kidnapping case, Like this is

1282
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,760
Speaker 2: the yeah, this is the kind of exactly so. But yeah,

1283
01:03:39,800 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 2: you see they're being they're being very quiet, and like

1284
01:03:42,200 --> 01:03:43,160
Speaker 2: you know, yes.

1285
01:03:43,240 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 1: This is the sanitized version of what really happens. And

1286
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 1: I want to end by showing you video of what

1287
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:52,280
Speaker 1: these camps were really like. And we are talking about challengers.

1288
01:03:52,280 --> 01:03:54,920
Speaker 1: So this is actually Steve Cartizano's camp. This is a

1289
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: video filmed in nineteen eighty nine for a local media

1290
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:01,040
Speaker 1: segment called The Reporters. I don't know what fucking network

1291
01:04:01,080 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: it was through, but you can find it's like fifteen

1292
01:04:03,200 --> 01:04:05,480
Speaker 1: minutes long. You can find this footage on YouTube.

1293
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 6: Now.

1294
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: A link will be in our show notes along with

1295
01:04:07,840 --> 01:04:10,280
Speaker 1: all of other sources. But yeah, here's here is a

1296
01:04:10,280 --> 01:04:13,520
Speaker 1: bunch of kids arriving at the boot camp in the wilderness.

1297
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:14,880
Speaker 1: This is what it looked.

1298
01:04:14,680 --> 01:04:18,160
Speaker 9: Like come midnight. They are driven over thirty miles into

1299
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 9: the wilderness to disorient them so they won't be able

1300
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 9: to find their way back out. A raging bonfire is

1301
01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 9: blocking the road. The vans stop and two apparitions come

1302
01:04:27,840 --> 01:04:31,280
Speaker 9: galloping out of the darkness. They are screaming and pounding

1303
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,080
Speaker 9: the windows like maddening.

1304
01:04:32,880 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 2: No, no, yah, a problem movement.

1305
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:40,480
Speaker 8: You're now so woo.

1306
01:04:42,600 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 2: Dazed.

1307
01:04:43,520 --> 01:04:46,520
Speaker 9: They gather around the bonfire and soon learn to show

1308
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 9: respect to those who will teach them how to survive here.

1309
01:04:50,360 --> 01:04:54,400
Speaker 4: Why, of course there next sixty three days, you'll be

1310
01:04:54,480 --> 01:04:56,240
Speaker 4: out of my care, my saft hair.

1311
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:01,320
Speaker 1: You understand, I can't.

1312
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 9: The so called counselors are not trained child therapists.

1313
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 3: They are survival.

1314
01:05:06,760 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 1: They're not Look at this guy.

1315
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:11,440
Speaker 2: Look at this man.

1316
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 1: He's not trained in childcare.

1317
01:05:14,640 --> 01:05:19,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, a guy with a with a ponytail and a.

1318
01:05:18,040 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 1: Ponytail and a boonie knife. Oh man, that's funny.

1319
01:05:23,480 --> 01:05:26,240
Speaker 2: I know that these places used would also, I mean

1320
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 2: they used a lot of horrible things. I know they

1321
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:29,880
Speaker 2: also used to humiliate, humiliation.

1322
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:32,680
Speaker 1: Yes, oh yeah, like major weapon. We'll talk about all

1323
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 1: of that, don't you worry. So, yeah, I do want

1324
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 1: to chat a little bit about horse hair. You know

1325
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: your you know, your rehab facilities quality place. When the

1326
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 1: guy gets led by a man named horse hair, his

1327
01:05:48,160 --> 01:05:51,280
Speaker 1: real name was Lance Paul Jagger, and he is the

1328
01:05:51,320 --> 01:05:53,919
Speaker 1: guy who Steve Steve does not want to do any

1329
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:57,200
Speaker 1: real teaching of children for some reason.

1330
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 4: His first name being a Lance just really really old Jagger.

1331
01:06:04,280 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 2: Is that's a pretty cool name.

1332
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 1: I mean you you know what horse hair?

1333
01:06:09,400 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, Lance Jaggers.

1334
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,760
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, that's that's what you name the protagonist in

1335
01:06:17,800 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: your dog shit spec script about a fucking Air Force

1336
01:06:21,680 --> 01:06:24,120
Speaker 1: rescue unit. Lance Jagger is a cool name.

1337
01:06:24,800 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 2: Also, horse hair can mean something that's like very coarse,

1338
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:29,120
Speaker 2: but it could also mean, I mean, that guy did

1339
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:31,440
Speaker 2: have kind of a pony like ponytail.

1340
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:34,760
Speaker 1: Literally, is your whole nickname just for the ponytail? Is

1341
01:06:34,800 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 1: that your identity? Horse hair?

1342
01:06:37,080 --> 01:06:38,400
Speaker 2: You're more than their samson?

1343
01:06:38,640 --> 01:06:41,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1344
01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:45,840
Speaker 1: So you know, Steve starts teaching these courses like when

1345
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: he does the first few runs, but again they're spending

1346
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,520
Speaker 1: sixty three days at a time out there with these kids.

1347
01:06:51,680 --> 01:06:53,880
Speaker 1: He doesn't. He doesn't want to, especially once this makes

1348
01:06:53,880 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: a lot of money, because in short order, in the

1349
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,520
Speaker 1: first like year or two, he's made a couple million

1350
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,280
Speaker 1: dollars doing this. He doesn't want because he's trying araging

1351
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:04,360
Speaker 1: fifteen grand per session, like, he has no fucking desire

1352
01:07:04,480 --> 01:07:06,240
Speaker 1: to spend all of his time out there. He wants

1353
01:07:06,240 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 1: to spend the money that he's making, so he has

1354
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: Horsehair do the actual training along with a couple of

1355
01:07:10,840 --> 01:07:15,040
Speaker 1: other guys, usually former military, usually dudes who like weren't

1356
01:07:15,080 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: really employable anywhere else but fancied themselves as survivalists. Although

1357
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 1: none of these guys have relevant wilderness medical training, there

1358
01:07:23,680 --> 01:07:25,760
Speaker 1: is and was at this point, there is like an

1359
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:29,480
Speaker 1: actual professional certification you can get for wilderness first responder

1360
01:07:29,640 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: right as a wilderness first responder that teaches you how

1361
01:07:32,640 --> 01:07:35,440
Speaker 1: to deal with stuff like keatstroke and dehydration. None of

1362
01:07:35,440 --> 01:07:39,960
Speaker 1: these guys have those qualifications. So Horsehair and another adult leader,

1363
01:07:40,000 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 1: Bill Henry, who'd gotten his start in scouting, handled the

1364
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,280
Speaker 1: actual wilderness instruction while Steve used his new gotten wealth

1365
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:48,760
Speaker 1: to buy a manner in Provo that had once been

1366
01:07:48,760 --> 01:07:52,160
Speaker 1: owned by a famous golfer. He focused his time marketing

1367
01:07:52,280 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 1: Challenger to wealthy parents with problem children. One of his

1368
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:57,840
Speaker 1: chief ways of doing this because he would like meet

1369
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 1: in person with again it's like fifteen grand kid often

1370
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 1: more because you're sometimes they're running through the program twice.

1371
01:08:04,040 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 1: There's add ons that can make it more like twenty grand.

1372
01:08:06,720 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: He's like meeting individually sometimes with parents to convince them

1373
01:08:10,640 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: because these are rich parents. Like, part of his like

1374
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:15,280
Speaker 1: program is he spends two thousand dollars a day renting

1375
01:08:15,280 --> 01:08:20,040
Speaker 1: a Lamborghini in order that's what he's spending his fucking

1376
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 1: money on.

1377
01:08:22,360 --> 01:08:22,479
Speaker 4: Now.

1378
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 1: Obviously, parents are going to bulk at a price like

1379
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:28,599
Speaker 1: this when, especially in nineteen eighty nine money, you know,

1380
01:08:28,680 --> 01:08:31,679
Speaker 1: fifteen grand twenty grand is an insane amount of money.

1381
01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:33,760
Speaker 1: And when they would, he would say, well, this is

1382
01:08:33,800 --> 01:08:35,760
Speaker 1: the only thing that could save your kid. Right, if

1383
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:38,040
Speaker 1: they're already smoking pot, they are on a road that

1384
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:40,679
Speaker 1: will inevitably lead to their death. Every kid who smokes

1385
01:08:40,680 --> 01:08:43,680
Speaker 1: pot winds up dying of a heroin overdose. That's just

1386
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:47,240
Speaker 1: how things work in nineteen eighty nine, right, cool, So

1387
01:08:47,640 --> 01:08:50,600
Speaker 1: if those are the stakes, isn't it worth re mortgaging

1388
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:52,880
Speaker 1: your house to make sure your kid gets the care

1389
01:08:52,920 --> 01:08:56,960
Speaker 1: they need, you know, in order to reach as many

1390
01:08:57,040 --> 01:09:01,280
Speaker 1: clients as possible, Steve leveraged his one celebrity connection into

1391
01:09:01,320 --> 01:09:05,519
Speaker 1: a series of daytime TV appearances. And when I found

1392
01:09:05,520 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 1: out who the celebrity connection to this guy was, like

1393
01:09:08,000 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 1: how he got into daytime TV, I had a beautiful reaction.

1394
01:09:13,960 --> 01:09:16,800
Speaker 1: This makes so much sense. I'm gonna quote from John

1395
01:09:16,880 --> 01:09:21,479
Speaker 1: Krakauer's article in Outside Magazine. Here, Cardisano persuaded his good

1396
01:09:21,479 --> 01:09:25,799
Speaker 1: friend Oliver North to put in an appearance during Variety

1397
01:09:27,640 --> 01:09:30,479
Speaker 1: who booked a month?

1398
01:09:30,920 --> 01:09:35,920
Speaker 4: Like, like, NRA, how the fuck.

1399
01:09:35,720 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 1: Does all in North run wind up?

1400
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:42,400
Speaker 2: Here? I was thinking like Stephen Segal or Chuck Norris,

1401
01:09:42,439 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 2: like I was thinking celebrities.

1402
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:47,599
Speaker 1: This is right after around Contra too. Has not been

1403
01:09:47,680 --> 01:09:50,040
Speaker 1: a lot of distance. You know, we're not talking like

1404
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:53,880
Speaker 1: warst stories with Oliver North on Fox, Ollie. We're talking

1405
01:09:54,000 --> 01:10:01,759
Speaker 1: like just committed trees and Oliver North. Odd, God, that's funny.

1406
01:10:02,000 --> 01:10:02,599
Speaker 1: I see.

1407
01:10:02,600 --> 01:10:04,680
Speaker 2: I think that, Like if I saw somebody driving a

1408
01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:09,040
Speaker 2: Lamborghini and hanging out with with Oliver North, like I

1409
01:10:09,040 --> 01:10:12,519
Speaker 2: would probably be like, I don't know, I think I

1410
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:16,000
Speaker 2: would be suspicious if like, if somebody makes too much like.

1411
01:10:15,960 --> 01:10:19,440
Speaker 7: You know, to drink my kid.

1412
01:10:19,439 --> 01:10:22,880
Speaker 2: Well, yes, like you look at look at what cars

1413
01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 2: teachers drive, you know, and it's like it's like the shittiest. Yeah,

1414
01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:33,000
Speaker 2: it's like the shittiest, like like like maybe they have like,

1415
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,960
Speaker 2: you know, a volvough fu. You know.

1416
01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:40,320
Speaker 1: Fucking Steve Montana rolls up in a Lamborghini with all

1417
01:10:40,360 --> 01:10:42,639
Speaker 1: Leigh North and says, hey, let me take your kids

1418
01:10:42,680 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: for sixty three days. Grand I'd be like.

1419
01:10:46,520 --> 01:10:49,639
Speaker 2: I'd be like, okay, no, Like fucking drug dealers drive,

1420
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,680
Speaker 2: you know, Lamborghini is like not not people, Yeah, not right.

1421
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:54,040
Speaker 1: Dealers hang out with all of her.

1422
01:10:54,560 --> 01:11:00,320
Speaker 2: I remember that.

1423
01:11:03,439 --> 01:11:05,959
Speaker 3: Yeah, get your kid into some good business.

1424
01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:06,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1425
01:11:07,000 --> 01:11:09,879
Speaker 1: So he does appearances on all of the big daytime

1426
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 1: shows of the era. Sally Jesse, Raphael Roaldo, Donahue, Cardasana

1427
01:11:15,000 --> 01:11:17,439
Speaker 1: would later say they loved me. I'd go on TV

1428
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,879
Speaker 1: with kids who had been through the program. These beautiful

1429
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:22,360
Speaker 1: fourteen to fifteen year old girls. Don't say that. Don't

1430
01:11:22,920 --> 01:11:25,559
Speaker 1: call them who talk about how they'd been out on

1431
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,479
Speaker 1: the streets stealing and doing drugs and turning tricks until

1432
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,720
Speaker 1: Challenger changed their ways. Boy, I don't trust the way

1433
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 1: he described them.

1434
01:11:33,880 --> 01:11:37,599
Speaker 5: Again, the name Challenger, Like I WinCE every time you

1435
01:11:37,640 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 5: say it, because it's like.

1436
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 1: There's a lot to WinCE about here.

1437
01:11:40,080 --> 01:11:41,519
Speaker 4: So yeah, that's fair.

1438
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 2: It's just like you're not gonna name like like something well,

1439
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:48,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess people could do sometimes name things

1440
01:11:48,280 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 2: like a nine to eleven memorial this or that, but

1441
01:11:50,600 --> 01:11:53,080
Speaker 2: like that, wouldn't that be just kind of like calling

1442
01:11:53,120 --> 01:11:55,920
Speaker 2: something like, you know, here's good good you know, take

1443
01:11:55,920 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 2: your children.

1444
01:11:56,439 --> 01:11:58,759
Speaker 3: To nine to eleven schools the Challenger.

1445
01:11:59,560 --> 01:12:02,719
Speaker 1: Okay, now, now, Mara, I operate the nine to eleven school,

1446
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,759
Speaker 1: which is a sixty three day summer program for children.

1447
01:12:06,479 --> 01:12:08,120
Speaker 1: We don't get them off of drugs, but we do

1448
01:12:08,200 --> 01:12:10,200
Speaker 1: get them on the new drugs. They are in the

1449
01:12:10,240 --> 01:12:11,400
Speaker 1: desert for a lot time.

1450
01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 2: You know.

1451
01:12:12,600 --> 01:12:14,160
Speaker 4: We don't talk about that, Robert.

1452
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:17,479
Speaker 1: I mean, we have to, Sophie, if we're going to

1453
01:12:17,560 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: keep enrollment up, I'm gonna need to start. I need

1454
01:12:19,560 --> 01:12:20,920
Speaker 1: to get on like Oprah or something.

1455
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,080
Speaker 2: You gotta pay for that Lamborghini. Yeah, we don't talk.

1456
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 4: We don't talk about that. I would never let you

1457
01:12:27,320 --> 01:12:28,479
Speaker 4: get anywhere near Oprah.

1458
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:32,320
Speaker 1: Winfrey almost certainly for the best. I think I give

1459
01:12:32,320 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 1: you a lot of damage on Oprah's With Oprah's platform,

1460
01:12:36,880 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 1: so speaking of a lot of damage, Steve is doing

1461
01:12:40,200 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 1: a lot of damage to a lot of children thanks

1462
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: to daytime television. He is like, basically, he comes on

1463
01:12:47,320 --> 01:12:50,479
Speaker 1: and he's kind of leaning into the fear of drugs

1464
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 1: and delinquency that are super common. And these are these

1465
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:56,840
Speaker 1: shows are all every week they'll have a segment where like,

1466
01:12:57,120 --> 01:12:59,639
Speaker 1: here's a kid who's out of control. They're on drugs,

1467
01:12:59,680 --> 01:13:02,519
Speaker 1: you know, they overdosed or something like that. So Steve

1468
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:06,040
Speaker 1: is like going into a programs that exist to scare

1469
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 1: mothers particularly, and then offering them a solution, and it

1470
01:13:10,200 --> 01:13:13,760
Speaker 1: works really fucking well, right. One of his former employees

1471
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 1: described the scene to Crack Hour. As the phones were

1472
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 1: ringing off the hook, parents begged him to take their kids.

1473
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:23,360
Speaker 1: An incredible amount of money started rolling in. Now there

1474
01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: was a problem with Steve's brilliant business plan, which had

1475
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:27,639
Speaker 1: worked up to this point. And the problem is that

1476
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:31,120
Speaker 1: these are mostly rich kids and rich parents. You have

1477
01:13:31,160 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: some middle class kids who's like, parents are really sacrificing

1478
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 1: for this, but these are mostly well off people's children, right,

1479
01:13:38,880 --> 01:13:41,360
Speaker 1: And the folks he's hiring to take care of these

1480
01:13:41,439 --> 01:13:43,920
Speaker 1: kids don't know what they're doing and tend to be

1481
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:47,360
Speaker 1: violent and abusive. This means you have rich kids that

1482
01:13:47,400 --> 01:13:50,640
Speaker 1: are getting abused. And when rich kids get abused, the

1483
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:55,599
Speaker 1: cops at some point are going to get called, right, Yes,

1484
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:57,880
Speaker 1: people are going to get you get sued. Right yes.

1485
01:13:59,040 --> 01:14:02,479
Speaker 1: In an interview Without Side magazine, former Kine County Sheriff

1486
01:14:02,560 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 1: Max Jackson, who was the law enforcement officer who got

1487
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:08,519
Speaker 1: called because the camp is in his county, claimed quote,

1488
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 1: we pulled one kid from the program who was so

1489
01:14:10,760 --> 01:14:13,200
Speaker 1: bruised and scarred he looked like he'd been at Auschwitz.

1490
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:15,800
Speaker 1: When another kid tried to run away, Cardsano got in

1491
01:14:15,840 --> 01:14:18,400
Speaker 1: a helicopter, found him, flew him up to the top

1492
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:20,400
Speaker 1: of a mesa and slugged him in the gut a

1493
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: couple times.

1494
01:14:23,200 --> 01:14:27,240
Speaker 2: Steve, Yeah, I mean being chased down by a helicopter

1495
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:29,679
Speaker 2: is fucking terrifying enough.

1496
01:14:29,880 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 1: But ye, yeah, then being beaten up on top of

1497
01:14:33,120 --> 01:14:36,360
Speaker 1: a mountain by Steve Martana.

1498
01:14:35,760 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's like. And and yes, slugging in this

1499
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 2: like becking cause organ dam Yes, like this is yeah, And.

1500
01:14:43,479 --> 01:14:46,720
Speaker 1: It's one of those things. Very rarely are the comparisons

1501
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:49,240
Speaker 1: to like concentration camp and mates valid. But you have

1502
01:14:49,439 --> 01:14:53,160
Speaker 1: children starved to death in these programs, right, Like these

1503
01:14:53,200 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: are like kids who are when they when their bodies

1504
01:14:56,360 --> 01:14:59,519
Speaker 1: come back from the coroner, like are so skited, like

1505
01:14:59,640 --> 01:15:02,439
Speaker 1: thin you can see like their hip bones, you know,

1506
01:15:02,520 --> 01:15:06,519
Speaker 1: like the children are getting emaciated to a terminal degree

1507
01:15:06,520 --> 01:15:09,639
Speaker 1: in these programs. So like, I don't know how appropriate

1508
01:15:09,640 --> 01:15:11,320
Speaker 1: you want to call the comparison, but we are not

1509
01:15:11,400 --> 01:15:13,640
Speaker 1: talking about like just slightly hoping.

1510
01:15:13,479 --> 01:15:15,120
Speaker 3: They are prison camps.

1511
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:17,840
Speaker 2: You know, they are prison camps. Yeah, people, the kids

1512
01:15:17,840 --> 01:15:20,880
Speaker 2: are treated there as badly, you know, in many cases

1513
01:15:20,920 --> 01:15:22,120
Speaker 2: as people in prisons.

1514
01:15:22,400 --> 01:15:25,520
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yeah, that's I think a much better comparison.

1515
01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:25,760
Speaker 6: Now.

1516
01:15:25,920 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 1: Steve at this point had a wife and four children.

1517
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:31,479
Speaker 1: In the documentary Hell Camp, his ex wife claims that

1518
01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: he told them the money he made from the business

1519
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,000
Speaker 1: was all being reinvested into it, and so the money

1520
01:15:36,040 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: lived on a tight but the family lived on a

1521
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,240
Speaker 1: tight budget while Steve was doing shit like renting Lamborghinis.

1522
01:15:41,560 --> 01:15:44,960
Speaker 1: He was also cheating constantly, which got tied up into

1523
01:15:45,000 --> 01:15:47,400
Speaker 1: the business because at one point he started cheating on

1524
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:49,639
Speaker 1: his wife with the parent of one of his students.

1525
01:15:49,880 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 1: He then talked this parent into loaning him a visa

1526
01:15:52,400 --> 01:15:55,680
Speaker 1: gold card and charging sixty five thousand dollars to it

1527
01:15:55,720 --> 01:16:00,680
Speaker 1: before she realized what was happening. Z Steve Montana. Baby,

1528
01:16:01,120 --> 01:16:03,360
Speaker 1: it's a classic Steve Montana caper.

1529
01:16:03,960 --> 01:16:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean this is such a I don't know,

1530
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:11,719
Speaker 2: like he's so he lives, he lives in a mansion

1531
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 2: and is renting Lamborghini's but is telling his children, we don't.

1532
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 1: Have to have money for you. Yeah, it's got all

1533
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 1: go back into the business. Now, excuse me while I

1534
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: start a secret family with this lady's credit card. Steve Montana.

1535
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:33,120
Speaker 1: Well that's all for part one. How are you feeling, Marra?

1536
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:37,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I I I want to slug this guy.

1537
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:40,840
Speaker 3: I mean he's dead, but I still want to slug him.

1538
01:16:41,360 --> 01:16:44,040
Speaker 1: I want to slug Steve Montana again. I would like

1539
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,400
Speaker 1: to hang out with Montana. Steve Montana.

1540
01:16:46,439 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 3: Steve Montana.

1541
01:16:47,240 --> 01:16:49,040
Speaker 2: Steve seems like he would, you know, he'd have that

1542
01:16:49,120 --> 01:16:52,439
Speaker 2: sort of like like Sam Elliott voice.

1543
01:16:52,840 --> 01:16:56,400
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely, that's that's who I'm casting to

1544
01:16:56,439 --> 01:16:59,720
Speaker 1: play Montana Steve when my specscript.

1545
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would either Sam, Sam Elliott, maybe Jeff Bridges

1546
01:17:02,240 --> 01:17:04,639
Speaker 2: if you can get one of those long beards going again.

1547
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so yeah, I I uh.

1548
01:17:09,360 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 1: Jerse j already doing some show. Oh and it's a

1549
01:17:12,800 --> 01:17:15,760
Speaker 1: show that's actually involves a very sketchy writer. So yeah,

1550
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:17,800
Speaker 1: this is this is great. We could just could just

1551
01:17:17,840 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 1: move him right over to my program.

1552
01:17:19,960 --> 01:17:22,040
Speaker 3: So where is Steve? What is what is Steve Steve

1553
01:17:22,080 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 3: Montana's actual real name.

1554
01:17:24,200 --> 01:17:26,480
Speaker 1: Uh, it's Steve Carano.

1555
01:17:26,160 --> 01:17:28,600
Speaker 2: Steve Cartasana. Okay, where is this guy buried? I'm not

1556
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 2: going to do anything, you know, just.

1557
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:34,320
Speaker 1: Figure that out for part two, Mara, when we come back,

1558
01:17:34,439 --> 01:17:38,320
Speaker 1: I will let you know where Steve Cartersano's grave is located. Unfortunately,

1559
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:42,280
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure it's Oklahoma. So is that worth the vengeance?

1560
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:44,840
Speaker 3: I mean yeah, it's a bit out of the way.

1561
01:17:45,080 --> 01:17:49,040
Speaker 1: So so out of the way of everything. That's the

1562
01:17:49,040 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: Oklahoma state motto.

1563
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:52,879
Speaker 4: Is there anything.

1564
01:17:55,000 --> 01:18:00,840
Speaker 2: Let's see I I've been I've been right. Some articles

1565
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:05,360
Speaker 2: for The Guardian recently about psychology. I wrote one recently

1566
01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:09,599
Speaker 2: about why we find people annoying. I'm both an annoyed

1567
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 2: and annoying person, so that was very fun for me

1568
01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 2: to write.

1569
01:18:13,479 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 3: I'm also working a lot in the audiobook world.

1570
01:18:15,439 --> 01:18:17,479
Speaker 2: These days, and if you go to libro dot fm

1571
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:19,840
Speaker 2: and look at my name, you can find a lot

1572
01:18:19,880 --> 01:18:22,519
Speaker 2: of really awesome books that I have narrated awesome.

1573
01:18:22,760 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 1: So go to Libra dot com. Look up Mara, look

1574
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:29,880
Speaker 1: up Libram Wonderful, Libra dot f f Jesus Christ. I

1575
01:18:29,880 --> 01:18:33,559
Speaker 1: almost fucked it up, look up maris excellent book Where

1576
01:18:33,600 --> 01:18:36,679
Speaker 1: Am I Now? True stories of girlhood and accidental fame,

1577
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:41,040
Speaker 1: and most importantly, slash all of the tires in the

1578
01:18:41,080 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 1: parking lot. You know, have a good day. Everybody.

1579
01:18:48,320 --> 01:18:51,040
Speaker 4: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1580
01:18:51,360 --> 01:18:54,640
Speaker 4: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia

1581
01:18:54,840 --> 01:18:58,000
Speaker 4: dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1582
01:18:58,120 --> 01:19:01,479
Speaker 4: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your pot. Behind the

1583
01:19:01,479 --> 01:19:05,560
Speaker 4: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1584
01:19:05,640 --> 01:19:09,320
Speaker 4: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1585
01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:11,000
Speaker 4: at Behind the Bastards